Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Degaine
climber
|
|
johnboy wrote:
I dont mind getting robbed a little to help support someone that truely needs it
Madbolter wrote (referring to johnboy being "robbed":
At least somebody on your side is being honest about WHAT is going on!
Do you both actually think that you're being robbed?
Living in society comes with a cost. Taxes and paying for a police force, fire department, schools, the military, roads, etc., are part of that cost.
I realize in the US, when compared to countries like France, Germany, Sweden, for example, that it is hard for the average middle class American to see an "ROI" on this cost (or "investment"). The aforementioned countries have universal health care systems into which everyone pays and everyone benefits.
Several recent released longterm studies in education, conducted with a control and an experiment group in the same community, have revealed that providing a solid education and safe school environment from pre-school on results in not only higher wages and rates of employment (when compared to the control group), but a significant reduction in crime rates.
In this poster's opinion, lower crime rates is a great return on investment for paying taxes.
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
Degaine,
Good post and excellent points on education.
A couple opinions:
America's inner cities have a culture of violence which is one important aspect of the failure of the schools in those districts. Much of this culture of violence is due to the breakdown of the family. As I mentioned earlier, Daniel Patrick Moynihan raised warning signs of this family breakdown decades ago.
in the US, when compared to countries like France, Germany, Sweden, for example, that it is hard for the average middle class American to see an "ROI" on this cost (or "investment").
That may be because of the lack of faith in the system to prevent abuse and fraud in the social welfare services.
In a debate on socialism, someone once told an economist that there was virtually no poverty in Sweden.
The economist replied that there was virtually no poverty amongst Americans of Swedish ancestry either.
Cultural values are important in the realization of social policy.
What type of socialism do Bernie's advocates think we are going to get here? European socialism, Latin American socialism or some other?
Socialism in Latin America has not been so great.
Who's the wealthiest woman in Venezuela, with a $4 bilion bank account in Switzerland?
Dilma of Brazil gets into power and suddenly becomes fabulously wealthy.
It's all about culture and levels of corruption.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
What type of socialism do Bernie's advocates think we are going to get here?
I sincerely believe it will be the kind that is FAIR to all social classes and does not favor a small minority .
Say what you will,Bernie openly represents Fairness to the Majority.
Rich and entitled should be scared of Social Democracy.
Balance of political power can be restored to "We the People".
Calling his policies "Socialism" in the context written above is nothing but a scare tactic to the masses.
Anyone using that context immediately raises my suspicion of their motives.
Degaine,A great lesson of civility,right there.
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
Is it a coincidence that a socialist has a voice after an economic colamity?
Bernie is the first significant sign that public purpose is rising again.
Ted Cruz is the last guy to the orgy after everyone is done and cleaning up.
Private interest, corporations, Wall Street and the extreme right quickly co-opted the tax revolt- Tea Party as a means to hold power. Homo hating, bible thumping, gun wielding village idiots quickly stepped in line, guided by hate radio and Fox news.
All this said, I hope the pendulum holds to the right long enough to deal with entitlements and the national debt to some degree...then let the new liberal orgy begin. I'll be the first one to that party!
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
Wilbeer,
I stated up front these were only my opinions. I don't question your motives or use strawman arguments of scare tactics. I really enjoy the back and forth in a civil manner.
And I do believe that Bernie is sincere and one of the most ethical of the candidates currently running.
The context of my opinion is that he is a self described socialist. In that context I would not vote for him for reasons I have stated not as fact, but as my opinion.
Contractor,
You make good points. Each party has it's faults and, IMHO,the role of the opposition is to minimize the worst of the other party.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
All this said, I hope the pendulum holds to the right long enough to deal with entitlements and the national debt to some degree...
Why would we want that.
Bernie wants to strengthen SS and Medicare, we can easily fix them, with a Democratic Congress.
Medicare for all is on top of Bernie's list
Without a Democratic Majority in Congress, nothing will change no matter if it's Bernie or trump, they will obstruct all change.
Wasn't the national debt all a consequence of Republican policies, borrow spend and lie about how great the economy is, but it's actually being propped up huge Gov. expenditures.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
Socialism as far as Bernie is concerned is very simply defined as Socialized Commons.
What are the Commons.
The commons are what should not be privatized for profit, because they do not make money in the usual sense of profit making. Privatizing them makes them more expensive, corrupts them for the general population, and favors the lobbyists and rich.
Water, air
Police, Fire, Military, border patrol, prisons
Education, collage
Health care
Communism is when the Government owns everything, including Corporations that produce goods not included in the commons.
Communism is far right wing form of Socialism that is used to control the people with authoritarian rule, the exact opposite of liberal Democratic Socialism.
Democratic Socialism provides the people More Freedom, More good paying jobs, cheaper health care, better services, cleaner air, safer water, safer food, better security and all the other good stuff that the evil doers want us to pay more for or screw us out of.
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
I got ahead of myself. Bernie is not the fist significant sign of public purpose taking hold as the mood of the country.
An African American, community orginizer was elected president. And to that point, the screams of "are you happy now?" and "I told you so!" crowd are diminished, thanks to measured, pragmatic, domestic and foreign policy.
Bernie is an elevation of the mood and a rejection by a robust progressive wing, that Hillary, WILL NOT DO!
The piercing noise of the zenophobes, at present, is probably a death screech.
Larry, you are correct. Although, not sexy , political moderation allows one to slap faces freely with both the left and right hand. So no big idiology here, just saying both sides count, and everyone has their time in the sun.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
When you guys figure out how a socialist with little or no support from the Hispanic and black community is going to win the Democratic nomination, much less a presidential election, let me know. Until then, I'd invite you over to the Ready for Hillary thread.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
|
|
Pure socialism demoralizes motivated citizens and financially it is not sustainable.
Actually when people see that the wealth they create is no longer siphoned off to the 0.1%, they get more motivated to work harder.
That's how it worked in Spain in the '30s in Aragon and Catalonia.
Capitalism collapses when it runs out of money to steal.
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
Craig,
My heart is with you. The kid in me that went to DK shows is all in! However; (here comes the conformist in me) the re-redistribution of wealth back to the earners (middle class) has to come after or at least in conjunction with some house cleaning.
I think it may be a little early for a FULL Monty on the social agenda.
Don't forget that progressives, whoring to the labor unions in Greece destroyed their economy. So, there is evidence of going too far.
That said, there is no doubt that the right (unabated for years) is destroying the middle class and our planet, for that matter, undisputably!
That probably makes nobody happy, sorry.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
Don't forget that progressives, whoring to the labor unions in Greece destroyed their economy.
Apparently, It's easier to forget that the Labor unions DID NOT Destroy Greece's economy, conservative policies of the Euro were the main cause of Greece's problems.
Have conservative economic polices ever benefitted a society as a whole?
None that I can think of. They are mostly based on lies and only benefit the economic royalists.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
Trump and his Fascism? Never gonna work.
Carson....lying incompetent.
Cruz...not gonna happen, and he wasn't born here!
Let's see his Birth Certificate, what is he hiding!
Next?
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
Do you both actually think that you're being robbed?
Living in society comes with a cost. Taxes and paying for a police force, fire department, schools, the military, roads, etc., are part of that cost.
Degaine, if you'd read my post on the previous page before writing what you did, you'd have seen that I draw a clear distinction between my taxes that buy ME, very directly, the benefit of every one of your examples. I have no problem in principle with paying taxes that purchase me a direct benefit.
Military spending is in this same category, although I don't want my money spent on wars of conquest and "police actions" around the world!
None of these things count as socialism, because my contribution BUYS me the very thing I'm contributing toward, and I personally enjoy the fruits of my labors.
By contrast, socialism does ROB me by transferring the fruits of my labors to other individuals where I gain NO direct benefit from those fruits in kind. Subsidized housing is a classic example of this sort of socialism.
I'm not going to reiterate my entire post from above, but you can read it, if you care to. If you don't care to, then at least don't misrepresent my position, as I have already explained these distinctions.
Socialism IS robbery, plain and simple. That is NOT the same thing as legitimate taxation.
That said, the income tax is an abomination and should be entirely replaced with a national sales tax (with exemptions for food and other basic needs, and with steep vice and luxury taxes).
Property taxes are another abomination! The idea that you never OWN a property, but you are instead literally LEASING it from the municipality, is ABSURD! People in Chicago, for example, are actually being taxed right out of homes they own outright! On fixed incomes, having striven their whole lives to outright purchase their homes, these people are now seeing property taxes as high as a modern mortgage! They can't pay the taxes and are put out of their homes for non-payment. I know because it's happening in the neighborhood of a good friend of mine, and he's been watching his neighborhood empty out, with the city taking position of these vacant homes... homes that THEY MADE vacant!
When ANY form of taxation results in the idea that it becomes impossible to actually OWN anything, the most fundamental principle of the founding of this nation has been overturned!
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
To Craigs point: Does anyone remember the deregulation of the utility companies in Cali?
Rolling brown-outs to conjure fear, along with a media campaign to blame Grey Davis.
When it was all said and done we had; Arnold for a governor, corporate warfare on rate payers and secret strategy meetings hosted by Dick Cheney to deliver California's government and delegates to the RNC.
A complete and documented conspiracy.
Perfect example of, the unraveling of a totally functional partnership between government and free enterprise by evil doers who will stop at nothing.
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
Sorry Cragman,
By any objective analysis, Obama's policies are squarely moderate Republican and they seem to be working fine for now but a well needed shift to the left is eminent at some point.
Craig, I mostly agree with you but, in reference to Greece: Retirement in your fifties with full benefits- well, isn't that what Tea Party hacks want for the "white man"? It doesn't work.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Goldenville west of Lurkerville
|
|
I remember the deregulation all too well...I think it was 1994 and my ex-father in-law , a devout conservative , was carrying on about how deregulation was going to spread the free market wealth..Then the staged brown outs and higher utility bills began...The private energy corporations were watching the chicken coop and screwing the rate payers while our government stood by and did nothing...
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
Bet the ex-father in law found some lib to blame when it was all said and done.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Goldenville west of Lurkerville
|
|
The ex-father in law was outraged that the EPA wanted to control the PM 10 that was being blown from Owens dry lake and inhaled by eastside residents...Other than the backward conservative logic , he is a good guy...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!