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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 19, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
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Extra slack is not a soft catch. Extra slack out before the fall increases the factor.
True if the fall factor is less than one, otherwise not.
…and increases the probability of what happened here, which is that the climber got his ankle caught AFTER FALLING. His positioning when he left the rock was OK. He wrapped is leg around the rope during the fall, which is more likely with more rope and more time.
"More likely?" A questionable assertion that seems impossible to prove either way.
That's not to say there's no place in good sport belaying for some extra slack (if you're not smaller than your climber), but it's dangerous to make it a primary way to give a soft catch.
Sure, but this is beating a straw man. Did anyone anywhere say it should be “a primary way?”
A proper soft catch is a high level skill. You need to read the amount of friction between you and your climber, which is a function of the contact area of the rope with the rock, the angles, your weight and how fast you get it on the rope, the rock type, the rope condition, etc.
These may be things that the belayer should think about, but is is absurd to imagine they could make anything beyond the very crudest assessments, and then there is no mention of the practical variations in belayer behavior that these complex observations should engender. Meanwhile, in spite of all the discussion, you actually forgot to mention that the belayer needs to think about whether the climber might hit something with more slack in the system!
Belaying is a habit and most belayers will belay in the style that is safest for them most often. If your belayer isn't a sport climber it's unfair to expect them to give a great sport climbing belay. Again, wait for a day with your regular sport partner to do the riskiest climbs.
And if you are right about habits, then it would follow that if your belayer is a sport climber, you should wait for a day with your regular trad partner for many trad climbs, and not necessarily just the riskiest.
For the most part, I think this trad/sport dichotomy is a tenuous one imposed for the purposes of argument. Yes, there are many dedicated sport climbers, but most modern trad climbers do both and are experienced in the demands of both types of belaying.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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Hi there High Fructose Corn Spit. Nice to meet you. I hope I spelled your name right. No I haven't quite posted enough, mainly because I'm annoyed at being flamed by some faceless troll on internet. I have one thing I would like to repeat and one thing I would like to add.
In terms of the repeat, I still believe what I said there in my incompetent post: that the half second of time after the fall (which is how much time the kid has to position himself before flip from the rope is inevitable) is probably NOT enough reaction time for a human being to correctly position their body in such a confusing situation. But then again, I am not a stealth-ninja-super-sport climber with cat-like reflexes like you and sDwag (and neither was this unfortunate kid). On the other hand, it may be possible that if someone trained falling in any number of complex situations repeatedly, for many years and for hours each day, then they might develop such reflexes, I don't know. But no one I have ever climbed with (and I have bouldered and climbed extensively with several people who have, for example, red-pointed 5.14) has ever had such cat-like instincts.
In terms of what ruppell said, I watched this pretty carefully a few times and at about 22 seconds (not 19) the kid brings his right leg in from the stem out right to a hold directly under his body. Although he does not cross under the rope, the vertical line of fall crosses the the rightward angle of the rope at some point further down the wall. At this point, to an incompetent person like me, it does not appear that it would have been easy or natural to have hooked the rope with the toe and passed the rope to the other side of the leg. In retropsect, looking at the fall it's easy to say that he should have done this, but I'm not sure that this would be very obvious on the wall. For example, freeze the video at 39 seconds (just as the slow motion fall begins) and the rope has the aspect of running right down between the kid's legs (although the fall line cuts across the angle of the rope further down).
At any rate, High Fructose Corn Spit, if you ever get down to Buenos Aires get a hold of me. We have the most bad-assed roof bouldering and steep sport climbs that Argentina has to offer right next to my home. I'm friends with most of the gym owners in BA and they can give you the travel information, or you can e-mail me here at ST. I'd like to show you around and see your stuff!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
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Yanqeeee, you silly rabbit.
Bottom line... there is an art to falling, as I'm sure you already know, and the poor fellow, as the video plainly shows, didn't evince it. Maybe it was just a one-off on his part. Maybe.
But I'd bet you a dollar if or when he gets back up there at the same point above his last draw he's going to pay MORE ATTENTION to where and how his rope's running in relation to rock, his belayer, his body and his likely fall dynamics - all of which are integral to the art of climbing and as the case may be to the art of falling.
Now I've got to go cut some wood.
Have fun down there, yes I would love to visit sometime!
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bearbreeder, not sure what your overall deal is but his snagging his leg on the rope to the point of torquing him over was certainly an "error" on his part.
Nobody's denying, I don't think (I haven't read the whole thread) that a dynamic belay (aka soft catch) by an attentive belayer might have spared him the mishap to a point maybe entirely.
If he had presented full-on situational awareness of the entire system of protection, he would've assumed at the event of falling (a) a possible hard catch (taking into acct his belayer); (b) the rope in the vicinity of his foot and thus taken appropriate countermeasures; (c) a posture and reaction appropriate for that environment in case of approach to the wall (incidentally not unlike what we see on a regular basis even in a gym).
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jun 19, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
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might have spared him the mishap to a point maybe entirely
I want to have my cake and eat it too.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
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in some cases a hard catch can increase the chances of a climber getting his leg caught ... as the rope comes taut MUCH quicker if the belayer is pulling in the rope, increasing the chance of the leg catching
I was actually going to ask if anyone knew about this, because after drljefe pointed out that the belayer yarded in the slack I got the impression that the rope being so tight had something to do with the foot hooking up (which is why I felt maybe a better belay could have saved the day) .... but then again, I've already flunked out on this thread!
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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A hair away from the onsight, I blew it. In fairness to the route and despite my self-spray at my failure, I blew it right where it got hard. As I did, I let the rope sneak behind my leg. Bad move, it’s a mistake I sometimes make. Problem is, sometimes it just happens, like, you have your foot here and it’s fine, move it a couple inches this way and suddenly it’s not, and in the moment of the move you f*#k up. I do, anyway, and from observing others I know I’m not alone. Most of us just don’t fall in that particular wrong moment. But I did.
http://kellycordes.com/2015/05/20/captain-fun-pants-and-the-sketchy-kelly-cocktail/
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ruppell
climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
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a good belayer may well be able to mitigate the results
No doubt. A good leader might mitigate them as well. It is a team after all. I've come in sideways in some falls but have never inverted from a non leg hook fall. Why? Because I'm aware of body position and angles.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jun 19, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
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Yanqui, ignore any perceived slights. It's a good thread with a lot of excellent discussion. It's just kind of inevitable here that at a certain point ..............
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 20, 2015 - 03:59am PT
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Again all the could have , would have and should have excuses are just that. excuses. Even the best climbers and belayers in the world make mistakes. Sh#t happens. Helmets don't weigh much more than a beini hat these days and just might make the difference between NBD and drooling in a wheel chair. the no helmet crowd need to simply embrace and accept the fact that they think helmets are geeky and that they are too cool to wear one. Trying to rationalize not wearing a lid just makes em look st00pid..
So yesterday my partner had his essentuals in a glass jar inside a nylon bag. We were sport climbing with helmets. A baseball sized rock came down and made a direct hit on the bag and I heard something break. Not wanting to distract the leader I did not mention it. when I rappeled down after cleaning the pitch I see my partner has a really long sad face and he is sorting though a pile of shattered glass trying to salvage a bit of his beloved herbs.. Yes wearing helmets is not a cure all but it is not an inconvience and it just might save your ass:)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2015 - 06:31am PT
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Apologies to Yanqui and bearbreeder.
My commentary yesterday wasn't necessary, apparently my inner internet child / beast was somehow loosed. (Maybe dinner was late? lol)
Anyways, Phylp is right, it's a good thread, a great video for analysis, and a lot of good discussion. TFPU.
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COT
climber
Door Number 3
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Jun 20, 2015 - 07:30am PT
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This helmet prevented some serious injury or worse to my better half. She was climbing a sport route in EL Potrero Chico at the Dihedrals area some 5.11. The route is bolted a little weird and it is difficult to keep the rope in front of your leg. Anyway, she wipped and even my soft catch didn't do much. Luckily the helmet did its job and she was totally fine. On a side note, I expected the force to be on the back of the helmet, but as she flipped upside the force arched her back so that top of the helmet took the most abuse.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 20, 2015 - 07:51am PT
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Just wanted to say that I'm not anti helmet.
My "moot point" comment was in response to tradman's moot point comment.
I also am not straight away blaming the belayer.
Accidents happen, that's why they're called accidents.
The leader was going to flip regardless, future of his melon, ribs, or thumb uncertain, regardless of the belay. His fault- he blew it with the foot placement.
But....
Again, from the second the vid starts, it's obvious the belayer is giving a really, really tight belay.
As experienced leaders, sport or gear, who truly wants that unless we explicitly ask for it?
Maybe he did?
But we also know the Barney belayer that, when we say "watch me good", pulls you tight.
This belayer was on serious defcon delta from the get, bracing for the worst with absolutely NO slack in the line. None.
No fancy modern kid smoke and mirrors tricks needed here, just give the kid a NORMAL belay.
Also, the way the filmer says "let him down", combined with everything else he does- body language, ultra tight belay, yarding in rope during the fall, etc....leads me to believe that he hadn't caught many falls before.
Glad he's ok.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 20, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
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often the worst thing you can do is grab the gear on the way by. its a great way to blow out your shoulder and possibly yank the gear out if it is marginal...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 20, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
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foot behind the rope on that one as well.....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 20, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
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I understand. i just have ADD and that made me think of how bad it is to try and grab the gear when you are allready falling...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 20, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
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yes aid climbs are wicked abrupt. sucks haveing your feet tangled in the aiders, the hook that just popped sling shotting at your head, hammer, drill and all that other sh#t flying arround and dragging you down like an anchor......
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jun 21, 2015 - 09:20am PT
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It is interesting that modern belaying trends seem to be heading in opposite directions.
On the one hand, in the context of single-pitch sport climbs, the dynamic belay, typically involving some sort of upward belayer motion, is becoming the sought-after standard. At the very same time, at least in Europe, the direct belay for the leader off the anchor on multipitch routes is gaining acceptance.
The conflict between these diametrically-opposed belay concepts, one as dynamic as possible and one as static as possible, comes into sharp focus on multipitch sports climbs, for which both techniques are simultaneously appropriate.
A bit of a mess, eh?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 21, 2015 - 09:27am PT
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I climbed for a lot of years never wearing a helmet rock climbing. I wore one on alpine stuff and on a wall. Helmets were heavy, hot, uncomfortable and encroached on my field of vision. No way Jose.
Modern helmets are another story. Pick your brand, I have a Petzl Meteor. It's light and comfortable. It is totally out of my field of vision. I forget I have it on. I will not lead without it.
Another thing which might convince the non helmet wearers in today's world: get an MRI of your head. The first time I saw one of mine I was not impressed by the thickness of my skull. I was shocked actually. Of course "boneheads" will have an advantage in this regard.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 21, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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the direct belay for the leader off the anchor on multipitch routes is gaining acceptance.
Not for me. I'll anchor for upward pull, especially under a roof, but I'll belay off my harness every time. On traditional climbs even a little dynamic in the belay can make the difference when the gear is dicey.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jun 21, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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I have a Petzl Meteor.
Love that one It can cinch super tight onto your head where even if they chin strap isn't on it'll stay on strong. Always a great sign when you top out a route on Tahquitz and go "hey, I was wearing a helmet this whole time...?"
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