No problem falling on sport climbs, right?

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Messages 1 - 86 of total 86 in this topic
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 16, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
ouch ...

https://vimeo.com/130043344
Port

Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
Jun 16, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
Yikes....
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
Jun 16, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
And no helmet.
Poor thing. It's pretty aweful watching someone get hurt.
dindolino32

climber
san francisco
Jun 16, 2015 - 07:48pm PT
Helmets are for losers.... and for people that don't want to be a vegetable for the rest of their lives. I used to skateboard, kids would make fun of me for wearing knee pads saying "Do you wear pads on your vagina too?" I was always the last one walking away injury free because I could slide out on my knees every time.
I got made fun of for wearing a helmet while climbing once too.... Makes you realize who the real losers are.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 16, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
The take away, I mean besides the value of a helmet...

During ascents with any horizontal component, it's easy / easier to lose situational awareness of where that rope's running.

I think he was lucky it wasn't worse.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jun 16, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
I think he was lucky it wasn't worse.

No sh#t. Slightly different orientation going into the rock and he'd be lucky to be alive. Or maybe unlucky, depending on whether being a vegetable is a good thing.

Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Jun 16, 2015 - 11:24pm PT
Belayer could have prevented that. Maybe overhangs are not their strong suit.
dindolino32

climber
san francisco
Jun 16, 2015 - 11:46pm PT
no belayer could keep a rope from catching the climber's heel.
COT

climber
Door Number 3
Jun 16, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
Yup, operator error for the foot behind the rope and a helmet is always a good call. But watch the belayer's braced left leg, it never moves nor does his body get pulled forward. Belayer gave a really hard catch. Belaying roof such as this one actually takes some skills to give a safe soft catch.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 17, 2015 - 02:58am PT
the cool crowd who always say it was operater error are full of sh#t. Almost every accident has some operator error in it and it can happen to anyone hence the reason it's called an accident. Watch the petzl vodeo on how to belay with a gri gri. Its full of expert morons jumping in the air giveing soft catches while their bare heads come inches from a solid rock overhang......
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jun 17, 2015 - 06:25am PT
"Do you wear pads on your vagina too?"

So do you?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jun 17, 2015 - 06:31am PT
it's hard to say a soft catch would have helped. He may have hit something protruding a foot lower (etc.) and really gotten hurt.

Let's just say he was lucky to not have gotten it a lot worse.
overwatch

climber
Jun 17, 2015 - 08:25am PT
Maybe he was pushing out but his harness may not fit right. Perhaps the tie in point is too low so that it causes you to be top heavy, so to speak, in a fall?

While my experience is nothing compared to many on this site, I have taken some falls on sport and gear routes and have never whipped upside down like that.

Glad he is relatively o.k.
overwatch

climber
Jun 17, 2015 - 10:20am PT
missed it on the slomo first time through.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2015 - 10:24am PT
I certainly didn't mean to post the video for sadistic reasons (although the shock value of seeing the result is important, I think). For me the lesson is that falling (even on sport climbs) can be dangerous and should always be taken very seriously. I really don't see anything that could easily have been done after the fall which would have made this safe. A "softer" catch and he might have whacked his head against the rock. And the flip at the leg comes violently at the last instant ... a difficult thing to avoid in such a short fall. While it's true that a helmet could make things safer in such situations, it wouldn't have helped this kid in this situation. However, the kid does seem to fall rather casually, as if he is expecting nothing will happen ...

Be careful out there kids!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 17, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
About 10 years ago I was making a redpoint attempt on a new route in the Kern Canyon (Buzz Killer.) The crux is steep, super thin and sequential. There is no way to make a clip, so you have to pull the crux a body length or so above the last bolt and be very patient to get a thin rail with your left hand just so to make the next clip at waist level on the right side. I was feeling really strong, did the crux, but got a little careless about getting the rail just right. I tried to clip and peeled. I looked down and watched as the rope formed a loop in the air and my foot entered said loop as I fell. For what seemed like a long moment I waited for the violent flip which would smash my melon against the rock (no helmet.) But I didn’t stop, I just kept falling. The climb traverses out over an overhanging section which was way below the last bolt. World class belayer Guy Keesee saw what was happening and fed out as much rope as he could as fast as he could and by the time he caught my falling ass I was below the overhang. I spun and flipped at the same time, but his soft catch saved my bacon.


The belayer screwed up on that fall plain and simple. Just locked off the rope. The poor guy hit the wall with much more force than he would have were Mr. Keesee manning the belay. Ropes can end up in odd places in the heat of the moment on hard climbs. A nice soft catch, and that guy would probably been making another attempt later on.
Rolfr

Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
Jun 17, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
The belayer screwed up on that fall plain and simple. Just locked off the rope. The poor guy hit the wall with much more force than he would have were Mr. Keesee manning the belay. Ropes can end up in odd places in the heat of the moment on hard climbs. A nice soft catch, and that guy would probably been making another attempt later on.

I totally agree, short roped, a preventable impact, it could have been worse.

I was short roped on a fall at Queens Creek 4 years ago and sprained both ankles, 4 months no climbing, on the first day of a road trip. Just f..ing bad belaying!

Belaying on sport climbs is a learned skill , he would have never caught his foot if the belayer had thrown more slack into the catch.

I took a similar fall twice, on the same climb in Skaha, with two different belayers, the first fall was a soft catch with lots of slack, the second time a few weeks later, a belayer of the same weight locked off the device and I flipped over and I tapped my head on the rock. Always wear a helmet now.

Sport climbing and gear climbing belaying are two totally different animals.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
First off I want to say thet I have literally belayed hundreds of falls on all different kinds of climbs and no one has ever impacted the wall like this, but IMHO. after watching this video, I think I've been lucky that this has never happened to me, as a belayer.

So to anyone who thinks the injury was completely preventable because the belayer was in error, can you please tell us precisely what the belayer should have done to prevent this, considering ...

1) There is exactly 1.5 seconds of time between when the fall begins until the kid impacts the wall (I measured this on the video). That means even if the belayer was paying very close attention he had about 1 second of time between when he realized the kid was falling to when the kid impacted the wall.

I seriously doubt 1 second is much time to yard out more than a handfull slack before catching a fall ... maybe a two handfulls, I don't know. Or are you saying I'm wrong about this? On the other hand I don't see that a handfull of slack would necessarily have helped. With the severe rotational force caused from the flip it looks to me that this might have only caused the kid's head to impact against the wall. By doing this, it seems to me belayer might have killed the kid


2) Another thing I have been known to do in a fall is walk, step or even jump towards the wall when I am belaying (there was certainly enough time to respond like this) but once again, it seems to me, by looking at the forces of the fall, that in doing this I might have just killed the kid by allowing the large force of the rotational vector caused by the flip to simply smash his head against the wall.

3) Are you saying the belayer should have maintained a much larger loop of slack in the rope before the fall began? In general I don't necessarily do this in similar types of circumstances, but perhaps you have some reason to think this could have prevented injury (please convince me this is true, if you think this is so).

In conclusion, if you think the belayer is at fault, please tell us exactly what he should have been doing either before the fall or in the 1 second he had to respond to the realization that the kid was falling that would have prevented this injury.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jun 17, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
From the very second the video starts, look at the rope leading to the first draw.
I knew what was coming.
When the kid falls the belayer actually takes in an armload.

The flipping would've still happened but the whipping would not have.

The rope was too tight.

please tell us exactly what he should have been doing either before the fall or in the 1 second he had to respond to the realization that the kid was falling that would have prevented this injury.

Before- keep a bit more slack...SOME...in the line.

In the one second- jump or let a little out.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
Yeah, I looked more carefully this time, drljefe, and it does look like the belayer actually yards in slack when he realizes a fall is happening. Not a good idea. I'm getting tired of watching this, but I think it's worth the effort
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Jun 17, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
Climbed something at T-wall that was overhung and strenuous right out of the gate. I was about 17 feet off the ground with a piece of pro 5 ft below me. There was a bulge/overhang 7ft below and slightly right of line.
I was slightly left of line when I fell. Belayer had locked belay due to ground proximity but was attentive (Thank God) and as I headed straight for the bulge the belayer let 6 ft of slack run through the belay device (tuber?). Net result was that as I swung toward the bulge I tried to get my arms up to take the impact. A couple of ft from the wall I suddenly shot down away from the rock as he let the rope run.
Yes, flipping over is not good. No helmet, not good although a helmet would not have helped me. There is nothing that can replace an attentive belayer especially through tiered overhangs. If the dude belaying me had caught me like the guy on the video it would have been a train wreck. As it was I ended up just above the ground profusely thanking the dude for the save.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
Why would anyone in their right mind let scrubbing bubbles belay them?

PS: After what listening to what drljefe said and looking more carefully at the video I'm actually starting to believe that with a better belay this injury may not have happened. But it's only speculation, right?
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Jun 17, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
"I'd have slapped the shitt outta him"

So , your gonna get him twice?
tripmind

Boulder climber
San Diego
Jun 17, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
Honestly if I was climbing with an inexperienced belayer I would rather just have them lock off then try some more advanced smoke and mirrors type of tricks. If the rope slips out of their hands, then like 40ft of it can drop in about 3-4 seconds and then you hit the deck.

A few minor injuries are an acceptable risk, even in sport.

Also I have never been mad at my belayer, maybe frustrated at the laws of gravity, but its simple to realize that your failures on rock and elsewhere are results of your own actions. However I have heard a more skilled climber yelling at a guy about his belay or something while working a route at the same crag I go to. Pick your partners wisely.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jun 17, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
Not giving someone a high E string belay is not "smoke and mirrors" or "fancy".

Barney belayer should have a grigri too.

Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Jun 17, 2015 - 09:39pm PT
"in a split second said belayer is supposed to "get fancy" ? leap to his feet and sprint forward, pay rope out like a madman, etc?"


So the jumping thing was not a fabrication? All the belayer needs to do is relax his grip and pay out 6 to 8 ft of rope. No need to get up, get fancy, get sprinty or pay out rope like a madman.
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
Jun 17, 2015 - 11:03pm PT
All of the above discussions are just a reminder to me to review belaying strategy with new climbing partners before leading or belaying. I can recall about 5 such discussions in the past six months. Telling people what I want for a belay on a particular route after looking up at it, telling people what I think is the right eay to belay for the route they are about to lead. And people agree, say "that sounds right to me". Or they have a chance to disagree.

Just because it's a sport route doesn't always equate to a soft catch technique belay. With rope stretch, you could hit the ground from 3 bolts up with any slack. Angles of travel affect it too. That's why I can't judge this belay just from the video. Things can be misleading on film.

But a helmet is always a good idea.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 18, 2015 - 03:09am PT
The whole blame it on the belayer sh#t is an excuse. We have all been short roped and dropped in one way or annother. no one is perfect and on any given day even the best belayer might not play it just right. not to bring religion into it but there is an old saying that applys here. God helps those who help themselfs. One of the ways you can help yourself is to wear a lid.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2015 - 03:28am PT
Yarding in slack when someone falls on an overhang like this is just wrong, plain and simple. I didn't realize the belayer had done that until drljefe pointed it out.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 18, 2015 - 08:11am PT
I think the whole soft catch thing is being oversold, whereas the reality is that it is highly situation dependent, even on sport climbs, where the concept seems more and more like an article of blind faith.

Most of the discussions I've seen seem to me to conflate lowering the impact to the falling leader and gear from the rope and mitigating the effects of penduluming into the wall, as if these two are one and the same phenomenon.

Having the belayer jump or stride towards the wall---if properly timed---has been shown to lower the loads on the top piece and the falling leader when the belay device is a Grigri that would otherwise allow no slippage of the rope.

The situation with pendulum falls is much more complicated, and depends critically on the shape of the terrain the climber is going to pendulum into. Convex walls, which cut way from the faller more and more the lower you go, are good terrain for introducing slack in the belay. Concave walls, which cut towards the faller are either questionable or downright contraindicated for reducing pendulum impacts by lengthening the pendulum arm.

I find the situation in the video extremely hard to decode, and am surprised at the certainty with which some folks assert that all would have been solved by a softer catch. The wall appears to me to be concave, which makes the soft catch a tricky judgement call, and in fact seems to be the worst possible concave configuration, very overhanging or even roof-like terrain with the pro set back in on a less-steep wall underneath. In this situation, there might be no room for the penduluming climber to swing past vertical and up (and so losing tangential velocity), so a hard impact might be inevitable, soft catch or not, and lengthening the amount of rope could make things worse, not better.

The belayer yards in two or three feet of slack at the instant of falling, and that doesn't seem like a good idea unless there was a real concern about hitting the wall lower down. The belayer is sitting down, which indicates that the standard soft catch protocol is not even in play (you can't jump or stride forward while sitting). These do look like lapses in optimal technique. The fact that the belayer is sitting means that the leader knew starting out that a soft catch was not in the game plan, so certainly shared equally in the outcome if indeed, a soft catch would have helped. But for all we know, the party discussed the need for not letting out extra slack; I still think you can't really tell the rock configuration well enough in the video to make a judgement.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 18, 2015 - 08:57am PT
Just don't do this test on a concave wall so that you hit sooner with the extra slack, because you might need that sam splint then too.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2015 - 08:59am PT
Just don't do this test on a concave wall so that you hit sooner with the extra slack, because you might need that sam(e) splint then too.

.... especially if you've been flipped into a violent rotation and the timing will allow your head to impact the wall.
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
Jun 18, 2015 - 09:21am PT
The wall appears to me to be concave, which makes the soft catch a tricky judgement call, and in fact seems to be the worst possible concave configuration, very overhanging or even roof-like terrain with the pro set back in on a less-steep wall underneath.


That's what I was thinking too R Gold, hence my similar comment above. It's hard to tell exactly from the video, but that situation is kind of what it looks like.

The only time I every had a partner really injured on a fall that I caught was a very similar: Steep Ramp leading up to a traverse right, Gear with a long sling placed before going right up and over, then another small roof, fall before gear was placed. After the accident, I replayed that event over and over in my mind, trying to think if there was any way I as a belayer could have kept my partner from that ankle injury. It was a hard impact but more slack could have meant something even worse.

I usually wear belay glasses when I'm belaying a leader on sport climbs but the exception is terrain that's complicated like in that video, because the belay glasses change the perspective.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 18, 2015 - 09:28am PT
Ultimately its a judgement call

My only point. For the record, I noted all the "bad" things the belayer did. (Well, I couldn't tell if he "sat back," but he did yard in slack and was sitting to begin with.)

I personally can't tell for sure from the camera angle, perspective compression, and video resolution exactly how that wall was shaped and so what the optimal belayer response should have been. As I said, the belayer seems to have been seated the whole time, so the party (and not just the belayer) were either clueless or had decided ahead of time on a hard catch.

Also on a personal note, I've had at least one fall where a soft catch would have broken my neck, so maybe I harbor some subliminal bias...
Matt's

climber
Jun 18, 2015 - 09:29am PT
if you look closely, when he fell, he had a bolt at the height of his stomach (approximately).

he chose not to attempt the clip...
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Jun 18, 2015 - 10:03am PT
BTW this kind of landing can be had on trad gear. IMHO bolt or gear has nothing to do with it.
How about "No problem with falling on overhangs, right?
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2015 - 10:28am PT
BTW this kind of landing can be had on trad gear. IMHO bolt or gear has nothing to do with it.
How about "No problem with falling on overhangs, right?

The reference to "sport climbing" was simply because there tends (I think) to be a more casual acceptance of falling in that discipline than in trad climbing. As if, somehow, all the danger has been taken out when you sport climb. This video shows that serious, unexpected sh#t can happen when you fall sport climbing. Some posters seem to believe the problem only existed because the belayer didn't do his job. Maybe so, but I am still not convinced that had the belayer done what (I think) he should have done then the result would have been a head plant against the wall.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 18, 2015 - 10:32am PT
A lot gone by here. Just want to point out that a soft catch does not always mean feeding out rope. In many cases simply making a soft upward jump as the rope comes tight is what's needed. This requires almost no reaction time.

edit: I see I'm late with this point. Petzl used to have a nice video demo of various ways to soft catch with a gri-gri. I just looked for it but their site is endless and basic search found nothing.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 18, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
Here's a shot of the climb from the bottom. The leader is in the same vicinity of the climber who fell in the video. UKC blocks direct posting of the image, so this link will work ONLY IF you register as a user on their site: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=172193.

Looking at the image, my first thought was that there is a lot of space to fall into and no way a hard catch would be appropriate. But then I noticed there is a sunlit bulge a bit lower than where the climber swung in and hit. (It is this first thing in the sun beneath the overhang.) If you look closely (perhaps enlarging), you can see the leader's rope turning around this bulge and heading inward, so the bulge definitely sticks out from the wall. Whether it juts out enough to be a dangerous obstacle or not I have no idea, but it might have factored into the belayer's thinking.

All in all, it does looks like a soft catch was called for though.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
Thanks for taking the time to post again, rgold, but I don't see the picture (or) video you posted on my end.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 18, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
It shows up fine over here!

Edit: but only for a day before UKC filters kill it. See previous post for a way to view the shot.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 19, 2015 - 03:13am PT
weather or not the belayer screwed up is a moot point. play this game long enough and you have 100% chance of haveing a belayer screw up. one of the things you can do to help your chances of survival is to wear a lid..
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jun 19, 2015 - 06:23am PT
In this case helmets are a moot point.
He broke his ribs and a thumb.
Bob Harrington

climber
Bishop, California
Jun 19, 2015 - 08:48am PT
In this case helmets are a moot point. He broke his ribs and a thumb.

I disagree. It looks to me like he came within inches of a bad bad head injury and was real lucky to have avoided it. The real culprit looks like the rope flipping him upside down. True, the catch could have been softer, but the belayer couldn't have prevented him from flipping over. This looks like 80% leader error to me.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 19, 2015 - 08:58am PT
Ropes can end up in odd places in the heat of the moment on hard climbs.

Yes and yes. Not a helmet issue, a shitty belayer issue. Ropes are dynamic and a hard catch can turn a fall into a pendulum, the only way he would physically come back TOWARDS the rock with enough force for an injury. The belayer yards in an armload of slack and leans back to take the stretch out of the rope when the climber is a foot or two above a bolt ~40 feet up, plenty of air for a better catch.


Reading these comments I don't think many climbers take falls while climbing...
Rolfr

Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
Jun 19, 2015 - 09:08am PT
This article from 8a.nu is worth a read. Especially the different dynamic impact in belaying techniques.

Belaying technique and soft falls

Most climbing incidents are a result of a fall that has been broken too hard. A static fall increases the risk that the climber hits the wall and gets injured. Are you a good belayer? What is the weight difference between you and your partner? Do you have a fresh and dynamic rope or has it turned into a static trap? With some advice and training you and your climbing partner can get softer falls, loose your fear of falling/heights and as a result, become better climbers.


The five most important, ranked parameters that decide the softness of the fall are;

1. The belaying technique: Moving inwards can prolong the fall by meters but if you instinctively sit-down you can instead reduce the fall by some -20 cm.
2. Rope condition: A worn out rope can easily reduce the softness by a meter or so.
3. Rope drag: A fall, especially high up, gets harder by the level of the rope drag.
4. Belay device: The ATC may increase the softness by 20 cm.
5. Weight: Lighter climbers will get harder and more static falls.

Based on the five parameters and a 5 m fall from a height of 10 m, i.e. the last clip was made at 7,5 m, we have put together a worst case scenario and a best case scenario.

The worst case scenario results in a very dangerous totally static fall for our 50kg stuntwoman. The table below shows that her fall could have been soft if either a dynamic belaying technique or a new rope was used. The other parameters don’t normally have as great impact in this case. However, as it is the first few centimeters that are the most important for the softness of the fall, even the least important parameter, the belay device, could in such a case save a broken ankle.

Bending knees makes it
impossible to sit down and helps the heavier belayer to
jump upwards
Comparison of different scenarios for a 5 m fall on 10 m of rope - Dynamic impact in centimeters
DECIDING PARAMETERS Worst case: 50 kg climber Best case: 80 kg climber
1. Belaying technique -20 cm (Sit-down) 200 cm (Dynamic)
2. Rope condition 40 cm (Worn out) 140 cm (New)
3. Rope drag -20 cm (A lot) 0 cm (None)
4. Belay device 0 cm (GriGri) 20 cm (ATC etc.)
TOTAL FALL BRAKING 0 cm – Very Dangerous Very soft
Note that the numbers are estimations, given to facilitate comparison of different conditions and that the five factors affect each other making it impossible to summarize the best case scenario. It should also be mentioned that an 80 kg climber would never risk a 0 cm totally static fall if the belayer isn’t a real elephant.


1. The belaying technique is the most important factor. This means that the belayer moves towards the wall upon breaking. When a light climber belays a heavy climber this is often done automatically since the weight difference lifts the belayer off the ground. The opposite case is more dangerous. In worst case the heavier belayer gets scared and moves backwards, sits down (-20 cm) and thus makes the fall of the lighter climber harder.

Heavy weight climbers should train (in a controlled environment e.g. an indoor gym) to lean forward and bend their knees when catching a fall and be prepared to jump. By standing further away from the wall belayers also improve the chances of giving a nice soft fall, it might however be necessary to initially stand to the side since the climber might risk falling on the rope causing him/her to get burned on the rope. With a dynamic belaying technique climbers will improve the safety when belaying their light weighted climbers or kids. If the belayer is standing on a shelf or for some other reason is being prevented from stepping out from the wall, it is essential to bend the knees and to be prepared for jumping when a fall comes.


A light-weighted may clip the
first bolt in a neighboring route
Leaning forward helps a heavy
belayer to move inwards in the fall
Bending knees makes it impossible
to sit down and helps the heavier
belayer to jump upwards

2. The second most important parameter is the rope condition. Different ropes vary a lot in elasticity. Based on a load of 80 kg rope manufacturers declare a stretch of 6-10%, see impact force etc. After a fall the rope needs some “rest” to get back into an unstretched condition. If you fall/hang a lot while climbing it’s good to alternate which rope end you tie into as each fall causes some loss in elasticity. The ends of the rope loose the elasticity more quickly and by cutting off a couple of meters of a worn out rope you may improve the stretching ability.

If a dynamic belaying technique is used, the rope will not be worn out as quickly due to a lower impact force.

The rope manufactures report on scientific test-results regarding UIAA falls etc but nobody is talking about the reduction in elasticity of a worn out rope. 8a have measured that the declared stretch of 6-10 percents can get as low as 2 percents for a worn out rope. Using such a rope represents a static trap when falling!

3. The rope drag is another important parameter. Rope drag is caused by friction against the wall and/or when the quickdraws are not placed in line. This has a negative effect on the rope’s ability to stretch. The diameter and general condition of the rope may also affect negatively.

If there is a lot of rope drag a soft belaying technique is more difficult and the rope will not stretch as much. The reason is that the load of the fall is taken by the rope drag. On long routes the rope drag might be the main reason for hard falls. In such a case and if a dynamic belaying is not possible, you could give some extra slack to soften the fall.


Impact force from Beal


4. The belay device plays a minor role. Some people argue that the GriGri is the main reason for a hard fall but considering all parameters mentioned above, this is not the case. The difference by an ATC or similar compared to a GriGri, is only the few centimeters gained due to your hand could move closer to the ATC. It is important to underline that a normal use of the ATC does not mean that the rope slides through it.

Sometimes the belay may be too dynamic with fatal consequences mainly for the belayer. A light girl belaying her heavy boyfriend may collide with him, hit herself against the wall or against the first quick draw. In these cases it might be very dangerous not to use a GriGri. By clipping the first bolt at the neighboring route you increase the rope drag and reduce the risk of having an accident. If this is not possible, light climbers should be anchored to the ground.

The purpose of this article is to improve the safety for climbers. The belaying technique is an important factor quite easy to adapt to and thus improve the safety. The rope condition on the other hand is a trickier question. To physically describe the forces etc. applied to the rope upon breaking a fall is extremely complex and impossible to calculate. Big falls affects the rope but so does the normal use with many smaller falls and hanging while working on cruxes. So when is the rope too worn out to be used? To give a time related answer would be useless since it depends on how often you go climbing and the number of falls etc. Is it possible to give an answer based upon the elasticity of the rope and if so, what test method and numbers should be used? 8a don’t have these answers but we encourage a debate and discussion about rope condition.


GriGri safety by 8a

http://www.8a.nu
ruppell

climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 09:10am PT
Gdavis

It's more of a shitty leader issue than a shitty belay. Granted the belayer could have performed better but watch the video again. At about 19 seconds the leader works his feet through. When he does his right leg steps OVER the rope. It's really easy to avoid that by hooking the rope with your foot as you step through to keep it over your leg. Had he done that the fall would have been a normal fall and not an invert. It's bad situational awareness on the leaders side.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 19, 2015 - 10:06am PT
Agreed. I've flipped over four times and it was never because of the rope.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2015 - 10:11am PT
This looks like 80% leader error to me.

I think the discussion about the belayer's role (and whether or not he should have done things differently) was fruitful, at least for me because I think I can benefit by thinking about how to give the best possible belay in different circumstances (which, in the end, as rgold pointed out, is a judgement call). I get the impression (I could be wrong about this) that the belayer yards in slack instinctvely, and not because this was a well thought out plan for catching a fall at this particular place and time. It seems (to me) like a soft catch would have been the best call.

Now I ask: would this had prevented injury? I'm still not convinced that what seems to be the more reasonable belay strategy would necessarily have prevented injury if we could somehow make an experiment and this was the only variable we tweaked. It is even possible (in my mind) that, in this particular instance (but certainly not in every instance of falling in this general area), a soft catch could have made things worst. A soft catch for a fall in this general area could give the best outcome in the huge majority of cases, but not necessarily every single one. We are sometimes controlled by the random outcomes of complex systems and judgement calls based on probability estimates are the best we can hope for.

On the other hand, I'm not sure saying it was an "error" for the leader to get the rope hooked around his leg is very fruitful. Assuming he falls unexpectly, he has about .5 seconds during a confusing pendulum fall to get his body on the correct side of the rope. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a human being should be able to do that.

IMHO, if there was any error that climber made in this respect it came before, down below the fall, when he didn't evaluate the correctly the dangers of totally going for the roof in this situation. Instead of going balls to the walls for the send, maybe he should have been more cautious to begin with about falling in this situation. But even here, calling such a choice "an error" is easy to do in retrospect. Every time we make a decision to go for it in a dangerous decision and pull it off, we made the "correct" decision. If something goes wrong it was an "error". Without a deeper content, this analysis doesn't seem fruitful to me.

ruppell

climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 10:13am PT
Four times in how many falls Rgold? Sure you can invert without the rope under your leg but that percentage is very small. I've never had it happen in hundreds of falls. The one time I had the rope under my leg I flipped. I learned early on to pay close attention to that. Unless you can grab the rope and do one hell of a sit up you'll invert every time with the rope under your leg.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 19, 2015 - 10:13am PT
I agree his rope behind the leg made things considerably worse, definitely avoidable on a route like that.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 19, 2015 - 10:29am PT
The way it looks to me, if the rope weren't behind his leg and he didn't flip, that catch would still have sent him slamming hard into the wall feet first.

ruppell

climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 10:38am PT
Ksolem,

Watch it again. A lot of momentum is generated by his inverting. If he doesn't invert he doesn't carry that extra momentum into the wall. In no way am I defending the belayer's belay but it wouldn't have been that bad had the leader not inverted. Plus I'd much rather break an ankle(and I have) than my skull.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jun 19, 2015 - 11:15am PT
Bunch of guys who obviously never take falls talking about falling, this thread reads to me as expected.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jun 19, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
the leader must not fall
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 19, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
JLP is right; I don't fall much since I've been almost entirely a trad climber. I'd guess somewhere between 100 and 200 falls total, with, as I mentioned, four inverted ones. On one of the inverted falls, I would have been either dead or paraplegic had not my belayer (Jim McCarthy) literally jumped off the boulder he was belaying from in order to take in enough rope. I'm grateful for having a belayer who understood what the situation demanded and wasn't reflexively executing some procedure assumed appropriate for everything. And I'm grateful that the level of casualness and inattention that modern sport and gym climbing seem to have engendered was not a feature of our time.

All that said, the dynamic jump belay is absolutely the right tool for the job when there is nothing to hit and a pendulum fall happens (and on overhanging rock, every fall is a pendulum fall). The main reason (there are several) is conservation of angular momentum---lengthening the amount of rope has to decrease the magnitude of the velocity vector (well, the velocity component normal to the position vector) so your speed going into the wall is lower (unless possibly, as in the concave case, the wall comes out to meet you). Looking at the picture of the climb from the ground, I'm pretty convinced at this point that the belayer did indeed screw up.

My possibly fatal fall was on overhanging rock and so was an excellent candidate for the jump dynamic belay. If McCarthy had done that, I'd be typing this with my eyebrows, if at all.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 19, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
JLP is right; I don't fall much since I've been almost entirely a trad climber. I'd guess somewhere between 100 and 200 falls total, with, as I mentioned, four inverted ones. On one of the inverted falls, I would have been either dead or paraplegic had not my belayer (Jim McCarthy) literally jumped off the boulder he was belaying from in order to take in enough rope. I'm grateful for having a belayer who understood what the situation demanded and wasn't reflexively executing some procedure assumed appropriate for everything. And I'm grateful that the level of casualness and inattention that modern sport and gym climbing seem to have engendered was not a feature of our time.

All that said, the dynamic jump belay is absolutely the right tool for the job when there is nothing to hit and a pendulum fall happens (and on overhanging rock, every fall is a pendulum fall). The main reason (there are several) is conservation of angular momentum---lengthening the amount of rope has to decrease the magnitude of the velocity vector (well, the velocity component normal to the position vector) so your speed going into the wall is lower (unless possibly, as in the concave case, the wall comes out to meet you). Looking at the picture of the climb from the ground, I'm pretty convinced at this point that the belayer did indeed screw up.

My possibly fatal fall was on overhanging rock and so was an excellent candidate for the jump dynamic belay. If McCarthy had done that, I'd be typing this with my eyebrows, if at all.

This is spot on.... as usual. This a good discussion and from this I can see that some people who have answered do not sport climb- AT ALL- and they do not have a clue as to what goes on whilst climbing on the steep.

To be a good belayer one need to have a bag of tricks and Know how and when to use them.

I dont like to dismiss folks who believe in helmets as a fix-all to head injury. But most of the climbers who wear em sometimes are the ones who get into head down falling.... maybe the weight changes the CG... who knows.

have at it......


And Kris... thank for the props, you have saved my bacon before too you know.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 19, 2015 - 03:09pm PT
A helmet while sport climbing is like wearing a bullet proof vest to get your groceries - sure, there might be instances where it is warranted, but best to avoid the situation that necessitates it in the first place and take well lit sidewalks instead of alleys, kind of like having a good belayer and being mindful of the rope behind the leg.

Also, belayer totally climbs and leads in the gym more than not.
sDawg

climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
For reference I weigh 120 pounds so I never get soft catches and I rarely try to give them, although I often do unintentionally.

1. If the climber had been focusing on not getting hurt AFTER the fall, he probably would have been OK. He just came off and did nothing. He accidentally got his leg around the rope during the fall, but could have prevented it if he'd been actively managing his body position during the fall. A soft catch is never guaranteed and it's always on the faller to take a good fall.

2. Extra slack is not a soft catch. Extra slack out before the fall increases the factor and increases the probability of what happened here, which is that the climber got his ankle caught AFTER FALLING. His positioning when he left the rock was OK. He wrapped is leg around the rope during the fall, which is more likely with more rope and more time. That's not to say there's no place in good sport belaying for some extra slack (if you're not smaller than your climber), but it's dangerous to make it a primary way to give a soft catch.

3. A proper soft catch is a high level skill. You need to read the amount of friction between you and your climber, which is a function of the contact area of the rope with the rock, the angles, your weight and how fast you get it on the rope, the rock type, the rope condition, etc. Then you need to decide to jump and/or feed out slack exactly as the climber hits the bottom of the fall. It's not easy and most belayers can't do it correctly often and almost none will do it correctly every single time or with a partner they're not used to. If anything, this guy could have put off a route that risked such a fall for a day when he had a very experienced belayer who knew him and his rope well.

4. Soft catches are not appropriate in many situations and many climbers do years of hardcore routes without ever needing to give one. Belaying is a habit and most belayers will belay in the style that is safest for them most often. If your belayer isn't a sport climber it's unfair to expect them to give a great sport climbing belay. Again, wait for a day with your regular sport partner to do the riskiest climbs.

Bottom line, if your belayer doesn't drop you they did their job. The rest is up to the climber mitigating their risk of bad falls.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
sDawg, thank you, best post of the thread.

yanqi, haven't you posted enough?

ruppell, too, spot on.

.....

Here's a zinger, just caught it...

"On the other hand, I'm not sure saying it was an "error" for the leader to get the rope hooked around his leg is very fruitful." -yanqu

That there, by the OP no less, is probably the most incompetent statement of the entire thread.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 19, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
Extra slack is not a soft catch. Extra slack out before the fall increases the factor.

True if the fall factor is less than one, otherwise not.

…and increases the probability of what happened here, which is that the climber got his ankle caught AFTER FALLING. His positioning when he left the rock was OK. He wrapped is leg around the rope during the fall, which is more likely with more rope and more time.

"More likely?" A questionable assertion that seems impossible to prove either way.

That's not to say there's no place in good sport belaying for some extra slack (if you're not smaller than your climber), but it's dangerous to make it a primary way to give a soft catch.

Sure, but this is beating a straw man. Did anyone anywhere say it should be “a primary way?”

A proper soft catch is a high level skill. You need to read the amount of friction between you and your climber, which is a function of the contact area of the rope with the rock, the angles, your weight and how fast you get it on the rope, the rock type, the rope condition, etc.

These may be things that the belayer should think about, but is is absurd to imagine they could make anything beyond the very crudest assessments, and then there is no mention of the practical variations in belayer behavior that these complex observations should engender. Meanwhile, in spite of all the discussion, you actually forgot to mention that the belayer needs to think about whether the climber might hit something with more slack in the system!

Belaying is a habit and most belayers will belay in the style that is safest for them most often. If your belayer isn't a sport climber it's unfair to expect them to give a great sport climbing belay. Again, wait for a day with your regular sport partner to do the riskiest climbs.

And if you are right about habits, then it would follow that if your belayer is a sport climber, you should wait for a day with your regular trad partner for many trad climbs, and not necessarily just the riskiest.

For the most part, I think this trad/sport dichotomy is a tenuous one imposed for the purposes of argument. Yes, there are many dedicated sport climbers, but most modern trad climbers do both and are experienced in the demands of both types of belaying.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
Hi there High Fructose Corn Spit. Nice to meet you. I hope I spelled your name right. No I haven't quite posted enough, mainly because I'm annoyed at being flamed by some faceless troll on internet. I have one thing I would like to repeat and one thing I would like to add.

In terms of the repeat, I still believe what I said there in my incompetent post: that the half second of time after the fall (which is how much time the kid has to position himself before flip from the rope is inevitable) is probably NOT enough reaction time for a human being to correctly position their body in such a confusing situation. But then again, I am not a stealth-ninja-super-sport climber with cat-like reflexes like you and sDwag (and neither was this unfortunate kid). On the other hand, it may be possible that if someone trained falling in any number of complex situations repeatedly, for many years and for hours each day, then they might develop such reflexes, I don't know. But no one I have ever climbed with (and I have bouldered and climbed extensively with several people who have, for example, red-pointed 5.14) has ever had such cat-like instincts.

In terms of what ruppell said, I watched this pretty carefully a few times and at about 22 seconds (not 19) the kid brings his right leg in from the stem out right to a hold directly under his body. Although he does not cross under the rope, the vertical line of fall crosses the the rightward angle of the rope at some point further down the wall. At this point, to an incompetent person like me, it does not appear that it would have been easy or natural to have hooked the rope with the toe and passed the rope to the other side of the leg. In retropsect, looking at the fall it's easy to say that he should have done this, but I'm not sure that this would be very obvious on the wall. For example, freeze the video at 39 seconds (just as the slow motion fall begins) and the rope has the aspect of running right down between the kid's legs (although the fall line cuts across the angle of the rope further down).

At any rate, High Fructose Corn Spit, if you ever get down to Buenos Aires get a hold of me. We have the most bad-assed roof bouldering and steep sport climbs that Argentina has to offer right next to my home. I'm friends with most of the gym owners in BA and they can give you the travel information, or you can e-mail me here at ST. I'd like to show you around and see your stuff!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
Yanqeeee, you silly rabbit.

Bottom line... there is an art to falling, as I'm sure you already know, and the poor fellow, as the video plainly shows, didn't evince it. Maybe it was just a one-off on his part. Maybe.

But I'd bet you a dollar if or when he gets back up there at the same point above his last draw he's going to pay MORE ATTENTION to where and how his rope's running in relation to rock, his belayer, his body and his likely fall dynamics - all of which are integral to the art of climbing and as the case may be to the art of falling.

Now I've got to go cut some wood.

Have fun down there, yes I would love to visit sometime!

.....

bearbreeder, not sure what your overall deal is but his snagging his leg on the rope to the point of torquing him over was certainly an "error" on his part.

Nobody's denying, I don't think (I haven't read the whole thread) that a dynamic belay (aka soft catch) by an attentive belayer might have spared him the mishap to a point maybe entirely.

If he had presented full-on situational awareness of the entire system of protection, he would've assumed at the event of falling (a) a possible hard catch (taking into acct his belayer); (b) the rope in the vicinity of his foot and thus taken appropriate countermeasures; (c) a posture and reaction appropriate for that environment in case of approach to the wall (incidentally not unlike what we see on a regular basis even in a gym).
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 19, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
might have spared him the mishap to a point maybe entirely

I want to have my cake and eat it too.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
in some cases a hard catch can increase the chances of a climber getting his leg caught ... as the rope comes taut MUCH quicker if the belayer is pulling in the rope, increasing the chance of the leg catching

I was actually going to ask if anyone knew about this, because after drljefe pointed out that the belayer yarded in the slack I got the impression that the rope being so tight had something to do with the foot hooking up (which is why I felt maybe a better belay could have saved the day) .... but then again, I've already flunked out on this thread!
coolrockclimberguy69

climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
A hair away from the onsight, I blew it. In fairness to the route and despite my self-spray at my failure, I blew it right where it got hard. As I did, I let the rope sneak behind my leg. Bad move, it’s a mistake I sometimes make. Problem is, sometimes it just happens, like, you have your foot here and it’s fine, move it a couple inches this way and suddenly it’s not, and in the moment of the move you f*#k up. I do, anyway, and from observing others I know I’m not alone. Most of us just don’t fall in that particular wrong moment. But I did.


http://kellycordes.com/2015/05/20/captain-fun-pants-and-the-sketchy-kelly-cocktail/
ruppell

climber
Jun 19, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
a good belayer may well be able to mitigate the results

No doubt. A good leader might mitigate them as well. It is a team after all. I've come in sideways in some falls but have never inverted from a non leg hook fall. Why? Because I'm aware of body position and angles.
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
Jun 19, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
Yanqui, ignore any perceived slights. It's a good thread with a lot of excellent discussion. It's just kind of inevitable here that at a certain point ..............
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 20, 2015 - 03:59am PT
Again all the could have , would have and should have excuses are just that. excuses. Even the best climbers and belayers in the world make mistakes. Sh#t happens. Helmets don't weigh much more than a beini hat these days and just might make the difference between NBD and drooling in a wheel chair. the no helmet crowd need to simply embrace and accept the fact that they think helmets are geeky and that they are too cool to wear one. Trying to rationalize not wearing a lid just makes em look st00pid..

So yesterday my partner had his essentuals in a glass jar inside a nylon bag. We were sport climbing with helmets. A baseball sized rock came down and made a direct hit on the bag and I heard something break. Not wanting to distract the leader I did not mention it. when I rappeled down after cleaning the pitch I see my partner has a really long sad face and he is sorting though a pile of shattered glass trying to salvage a bit of his beloved herbs.. Yes wearing helmets is not a cure all but it is not an inconvience and it just might save your ass:)



High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 20, 2015 - 06:31am PT
Apologies to Yanqui and bearbreeder.

My commentary yesterday wasn't necessary, apparently my inner internet child / beast was somehow loosed. (Maybe dinner was late? lol)

Anyways, Phylp is right, it's a good thread, a great video for analysis, and a lot of good discussion. TFPU.
COT

climber
Door Number 3
Jun 20, 2015 - 07:30am PT
This helmet prevented some serious injury or worse to my better half. She was climbing a sport route in EL Potrero Chico at the Dihedrals area some 5.11. The route is bolted a little weird and it is difficult to keep the rope in front of your leg. Anyway, she wipped and even my soft catch didn't do much. Luckily the helmet did its job and she was totally fine. On a side note, I expected the force to be on the back of the helmet, but as she flipped upside the force arched her back so that top of the helmet took the most abuse.

drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jun 20, 2015 - 07:51am PT
Just wanted to say that I'm not anti helmet.
My "moot point" comment was in response to tradman's moot point comment.

I also am not straight away blaming the belayer.
Accidents happen, that's why they're called accidents.
The leader was going to flip regardless, future of his melon, ribs, or thumb uncertain, regardless of the belay. His fault- he blew it with the foot placement.

But....
Again, from the second the vid starts, it's obvious the belayer is giving a really, really tight belay.
As experienced leaders, sport or gear, who truly wants that unless we explicitly ask for it?
Maybe he did?
But we also know the Barney belayer that, when we say "watch me good", pulls you tight.

This belayer was on serious defcon delta from the get, bracing for the worst with absolutely NO slack in the line. None.

No fancy modern kid smoke and mirrors tricks needed here, just give the kid a NORMAL belay.

Also, the way the filmer says "let him down", combined with everything else he does- body language, ultra tight belay, yarding in rope during the fall, etc....leads me to believe that he hadn't caught many falls before.

Glad he's ok.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 20, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
often the worst thing you can do is grab the gear on the way by. its a great way to blow out your shoulder and possibly yank the gear out if it is marginal...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 20, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
foot behind the rope on that one as well.....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 20, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
I understand. i just have ADD and that made me think of how bad it is to try and grab the gear when you are allready falling...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 20, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
yes aid climbs are wicked abrupt. sucks haveing your feet tangled in the aiders, the hook that just popped sling shotting at your head, hammer, drill and all that other sh#t flying arround and dragging you down like an anchor......
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 21, 2015 - 09:20am PT
It is interesting that modern belaying trends seem to be heading in opposite directions.

On the one hand, in the context of single-pitch sport climbs, the dynamic belay, typically involving some sort of upward belayer motion, is becoming the sought-after standard. At the very same time, at least in Europe, the direct belay for the leader off the anchor on multipitch routes is gaining acceptance.

The conflict between these diametrically-opposed belay concepts, one as dynamic as possible and one as static as possible, comes into sharp focus on multipitch sports climbs, for which both techniques are simultaneously appropriate.

A bit of a mess, eh?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 21, 2015 - 09:27am PT
I climbed for a lot of years never wearing a helmet rock climbing. I wore one on alpine stuff and on a wall. Helmets were heavy, hot, uncomfortable and encroached on my field of vision. No way Jose.

Modern helmets are another story. Pick your brand, I have a Petzl Meteor. It's light and comfortable. It is totally out of my field of vision. I forget I have it on. I will not lead without it.

Another thing which might convince the non helmet wearers in today's world: get an MRI of your head. The first time I saw one of mine I was not impressed by the thickness of my skull. I was shocked actually. Of course "boneheads" will have an advantage in this regard.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 21, 2015 - 09:32am PT
the direct belay for the leader off the anchor on multipitch routes is gaining acceptance.

Not for me. I'll anchor for upward pull, especially under a roof, but I'll belay off my harness every time. On traditional climbs even a little dynamic in the belay can make the difference when the gear is dicey.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 21, 2015 - 09:50am PT
I have a Petzl Meteor.

Love that one It can cinch super tight onto your head where even if they chin strap isn't on it'll stay on strong. Always a great sign when you top out a route on Tahquitz and go "hey, I was wearing a helmet this whole time...?"
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 22, 2015 - 03:58am PT
I belay off the anchor to bring up the 2nd about 95% of the tine. i would never belay a leader off the anchor...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 22, 2015 - 09:23am PT
Belaying the leader directly off the anchor hasn't caught on at all in the US---I've never seen anyone do it. Having properly situated solid bolted anchors is probably a prerequisite for even grudging acceptance, and we are a long way from that in most of our climbing areas. But as I said, there are plenty of folks doing it on multipitch sport climbs in Europe, typically in conjunction with a Munter hitch, which does add a dynamic element to the belay.
CCT

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2015 - 10:39am PT
Belaying the leader directly off the anchor? How does that work? I could have used that technique this weekend.

3 pitches in, the crack above us is surprisingly straight up and the crux is only 12 ft off the belay. My climber put in 3 pieces in that 12 ft, but there is still no friction on the rope because it's running straight up and down.

Before committing to the hard move, my climber shouts, "Take!" and leans back on the rope. Oh man, this guy is 70 lbs heavier than me, and the rope is straight up! Just holding his weight is a little tough. I don't want to scare him, but down below I'm busy rearranging the rope so it goes under my leg to add a little friction to the system. If my right hand fails, my left hand holding the rope under my leg is the back-up. I can't give him a loose belay, because he'll hit the blocky belay ledge. I don't dare look up to watch him make the move, because I know he'll whack into me if he does fall. And come to realize later, we didn't even set up the anchor to protect against an upward pull.

A moment later, he goes for it. And sticks the move! Phew!

So yeah. Belaying directly off the anchor would be a great technique in that situation. In this case, we didn't expect the third pitch to be what it was, and we didn't have a gri-gri. Luckily it all worked out, but a kick to the face and rope burn for me and a potentially dropped climber with a broken ankle or worse were very real possibilities.


rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 22, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
For openers, here are two english references.

A reasonably balanced comparison of methods from the DAV:

http://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/e0a0abc8-3fe8-c1b5-fb8c-8d639b1d7e75/2014-3-belaying-in-multi-pitch-routes_25220.pdf

IFMG Technical Commission Report

http://www.outdoorlink.org/research-papers/part-5-belaying-lowres.pdf



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 23, 2015 - 09:45am PT
I would not use a munter to belay a leader either. Not much breaking power INMOP.
JimT

climber
Munich
Jun 23, 2015 - 11:29am PT
I would not use a munter to belay a leader either. Not much breaking power INMOP.

It´s consistently one of the most powerful performers when tested against conventional devices.
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