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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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May 22, 2015 - 07:21am PT
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What if it is? So what? Why shouldn't 'these people' be allowed to pursue their ritualized whatever? What difference does it make to humanity, that these folks are out trying to do whatever? I'll tell you; none. It makes none difference.
You're right, totally. Still, don't do it in the valley where a bunch of tourists will see it. That's not fair.
Back when I was a teen-ager, a doctor in town committed suicide with a gun. He got caught prescribing drugs for money.
The suicide thing was OK, but he did it in his backyard where his teen-age daughter found him sitting in a lawn chair with his brains all over the grass. That was an as#@&%e thing to do.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2015 - 08:15am PT
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Just as a counterpoint, base happens to be an activity that keeps a formal list of fatalities. People love to point out THE LIST.
That said, don't you think if there was a formal list of climbing fatalities it would greatly surpass the base list?
Several climbers have died "in front of tourists" and they don't ban climbing.
I'm not pro base and I'm sure not anti climbing. I do see some hypocrisy on the part of NPS. I guess maybe it does boil down to historical uses, but that implies we don't keep up with the modern world. For that matter, what's historical about selling pizza and concessions?
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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May 22, 2015 - 08:30am PT
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That said, don't you think if there was a formal list of climbing fatalities it would greatly surpass the base list?
For 2013 ANAM reports 25 fatalities. The BASE website reports 24 fatalities.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 22, 2015 - 08:35am PT
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I'm with Moof.
Poor tourist got killed because some caped flyer landed on him...
Poor search rescue has to do yet another clean up..
Illegal keep it that way..
Maybe open 1day a year
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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It's got nothing to do with any of that.
To allow BASE jumping in Nat Parks it has to be regulated.
That's how the govt, does business whether we like it or not.
That means it will require a budget and staff to run.
In the 80's when it was legal BASE was still in it's infancy and people where landing everywhere except where they were supposed to.
NPS had to chase em down to their LZ landings to make sure they weren't injured.
Every day this was happening and took up a lot of resources.
We got sent out all the time looking for jumpers who disappeared out of sight in the wrong designated landings to make sure they were OK.
Jumpers also ignored designated launch zones and where free lancing in other areas of the park that were not allowed to jump from.
It became a fuking zoo, circus and was out of control from their POV (NPS) and thus they said no more.
Then years later ,,,, the protest was allowed to show they have better equipment and control to land in the designated LZ.
Unfortunately the third jumper BASED.
That didn't look good for the BASE community in the eyes of the people they were trying impress.
Thus it remains not allowed ....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 22, 2015 - 08:57am PT
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Through the National Park Service Act (1916), Congress authorized the National Park Service to promote and regulate the use of the Federal areas known as national parks, monuments, and reservations…by such means and measures as conform to the fundamental purpose to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wildlife therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations.
Now I'm not a lawyer but I don't see anything in there that says the Park
Service is mandated to allow every nutcase to do whatever he wants to do
whenever he wants to do it.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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May 22, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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Werner
Do you think today that something could be reached with the NPS and BASE?
You have valid points from experience and not an opinion like others have posted.
How do you see a compromise with the NPS / BASE to allow jumpers to jump?
As far as landing out there are a few circumstances where one NEEDS to land out.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 22, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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Thanks for the background and excellent points Werner.
Regarding a good landing site... Arent they about to close all the meadows to foot traffic anyway? Man that's gunna suck for everyone let alone the idea of an acceptable place for landing if BASE got approval.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 22, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations.
Some people enjoy it by being choufheard around on the bottom sitting in a green dragon looking up. Some like to climb to the top and step off enjoying the view on the way down.
So tell me, who's actually impaired the Valley more?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 22, 2015 - 10:07am PT
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Now if only we could get Harley's with their god awfully loud and annoying exhaust systems banned we would be getting somewhere.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 22, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Moof, exactly. Apparently the NPS has never heard of decibel meters.
A Harley rolls up to the entrance and out comes the meter. Make 'em
rev the monster and send 'em back to the ghetto that spawned 'em.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel or a tr
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May 22, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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BASE isn't a crime.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 22, 2015 - 11:32am PT
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In a way, I don't mind that much that Yosemite is illegal. It helps to keep the riff raff away. There are unintended consequences, though, because it has been going on non-stop since the early 80's. You guys would be shocked if you knew how many jumps have quietly happened over the years. NOBODY discusses what they have done in Yosemite. It is all on the down low other the infrequent busts and things like Jan Davis's accident.
Unintended consequences, since it is going on anyway:
1: Anyone with access to a parachute can jump. Any idiot can put on a rig and go jump El Cap in this legal environment. The judge isn't lenient just because you are an expert, safely jumping. I mean, anybody can do it. All of the El Cap accidents have that as a cause. Even when Jan Davis died, she wasn't super current and couldn't find the pilot chute on a borrowed rig. She would probably have died if it were a skydive, and quite a few skydiving fatalities have had the same cause. When jumping borrowed gear, you MUST practice the pull over and over. I believe in her case it was a bottom of container pouch, which is how all modern BASE rigs place the pilot chute now.
2: The Rangers Themselves I, and anyone else who has even thought about jumping in the valley is afraid of the rangers. That is why it is done discretely. They used to be rabid about catching jumpers. I listened in on a couple of mid 80's era BASE manhunts, and they just went nuts. They brought in a whole gang both times. It blew my mind how much manpower they diverted to catch a jumper, because it is a misdemeanor. The jumper stands to lose his rig and 5000 bucks. Getting away is half of the jump at least. The jump is easy to do. Getting away with it requires a lot of observation and planning. It is absurd to think that the current situation doesn't make it more dangerous.
Here is an article in The Guardian discussing whether or not the regulations contributed to the recent accident, including the thoughts of Cedar Wright and Brian Kay:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/may/22/did-rules-not-risk-cause-dean-potters-base-jumping-death
Yes. Last year in the NPS system there were 16 searches for lost pets and only 3 SAR operations for BASE jumpers.
We all know of the time that they chased Frank Gambali into the Merced, where he drowned.
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Mag15lastbase/frank-gambalie-lived-died-base-jumping-espn-magazine-archives
Avoiding bust involves all sorts of changes in time, place, LZ, where to hide, you name it. If there were no rangers. It could go on in broad daylight. Not getting caught is half the game.
3: Jumping in low light conditions. This isn't too bad with a conventional jump, but I can see how it would make it a problem on proxy flights. It sure doesn't make it safer. They don't fly proxy lines after dark in Europe, I wager. Why, when you can legally do it all day long? Low light is obviously more important to wingsuiters following proxy lines, but all jumps involve landing in the dark, and it makes that a lot harder.
I went back through the BASE Fatality List just to see how many deaths there have been in Yosemite.
There have been 3 from El Cap.
There have been 2 from Half Dome, the last being in 1988. This one shouldn't have happened. He did everything right other than open high enough. The slabs are a little deceptive as you track out over them. He lost altitude awareness and pulled just before impact. I used to be surprised at how low I could go off of Half Dome. It is very different from El Cap, and sits so high above the valley that even conventional jump you can fly your canopy across to Basket Dome or way up the valley, far from roads.
No doubt there have been a lot of broken ankles, at least one rescue from Glacier Point, and other incidents that have happened, but by and large it has been forgiving for all other than the most inexperienced. If it was legal, those folks would not have been allowed. Not even close.
Up until this week, there had been only 5 fatalities that I know of, using the fatality list, and I know that these objects get jumped fairly often. Not every day, but often enough, and then it might be 4 at a time. Anyone who has spent much time on valley walls has witnessed it. I've damn sure done all of them. On caveman gear, but we knew all possible risks. A parachute isn't that complicated, nor is a simple track from HD or El Cap.
For an expert jumper, they are simple jumps. I'm not talking about wingsuiting here. Just a conventional BASE jump.
I seriously doubt if it will ever be legal. The best that I could hope for would be to put the hammer down on anyone without 200 skydives or say 20 BASE jumps. Be a little more lenient towards the masters.
It could be done, however, and I suppose that some day far into the future it will be. There is only one Yosemite in the U.S. Europe is covered with great sites, along with full time jumpers just like in climbing.
There are very few terminal velocity sites in the U.S. Yes, the Moab area is full of sites, but you take a 3 second freefall at most. You don't need to know how to fly your body.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel or a tr
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May 22, 2015 - 11:53am PT
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BASE104 thanks for posting up. I for one really appreciate your perspective.
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overwatch
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
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Definitely an informed post on an interesting subject.
Edit;
I know my inner grammar nazi caught that too.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 22, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Thanks for the information wbraun.
who is qualified
Qualified to do what? My understanding is that these two guys were very qualified to don the gear and face the fear, but they weren't qualified to have the proportionality of values that woud allow them to do it without dying. I'm qualified to do that, because I just wouldn't jump, but I dont think that's the qualifications that we want to screen for :-) Given the track record of errors in judgment (and values?) with respect to flying at dusk or jumping into the Merced, maybe this is an activity that doesn't screen for those values, so why should we? Is pulling the chute really the most important qualification for this activity? I'm not convinced that we're qualified to say who is qualified.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 23, 2015 - 05:01am PT
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you have a million or so climbers and mountaineres and maybe 4,000 jumpers with roughly the same number of fatalitys
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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May 23, 2015 - 07:42am PT
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BASE104 said:
I seriously doubt if it will ever be legal. The best that I could hope for would be to put the hammer down on anyone without 200 skydives or say 20 BASE jumps. Be a little more lenient towards the masters. This would help avoid the beginner problems. But a complication is the fact that the masters have some tendency to use their mastery to plan jumps that increasingly shave the margin for error. This can yield an accident rate that increases with experience, rather than the normal decrease.
All the evidence suggests that Dean & Graham were experts who meticulously planned their jumps - about as qualified as anyone could be. Yet the jump they undertook had a tiny margin for error, which even two masters did not manage to stay within.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 23, 2015 - 07:46am PT
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Sula is right on. In roped rock climbing skill and experience tend to mitigate risk.
In proximity flying skill and experience seem to push people into taking more difficult lines and shaving margins without the saftey net available in rock climbing
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2015 - 07:58am PT
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You people just can't handle life itself.
You always try to force it into your way.
Then it always breaks free from "your way".
And eternally remains Free .....
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