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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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May 21, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
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"The Only Blasphemy" is, IMHO, the best written piece that presents the pros and cons of soloing. The attraction is there in the form of Bachar, out being free every day, willing to live with the possible consequences. Long feels the attraction, too, but also feels the doubts and fears, and real danger, that come with a partial commitment.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 21, 2015 - 11:59pm PT
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Along the lines of 'why?'... I'm in the ' we're all adrenaline junkies' camp. I know it's an overused phrase but I mean it in quite a literal manner. That big grin and bright face after a challenging climb really is a drug induced high....... at least that is my suspicion. I'd like to see some blood chemistry studies on the subject. In any case as we've all experienced, like sex and heroin (I hear) its hard to give up once you taste it.
I have a bunch of non-climber friends into high speed motorcycle riding. Accidents are inevitable but their high is similar to climbers' near as I can tell.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 22, 2015 - 06:01am PT
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I think, the sole proprietary motivation has been Adventure! [...] In these, competition lies within and against one's own self, and the environment. NOT against another person.
BS. These guys know their rank in the herd like 2 400M sprinter comparing milliseconds.
The whole "adventure" thing only serves to insulate and obscure these guys from having to endure genuine competition - an arena where you LOSE, MOST of the time. This is a class of guys whose egos couldn't handle such a thing, they're already outcasts from the real world.
But because another person hasn't done it yet.
Getting warmer. Even better if nobody will ever have the balls to repeat the "adventure" - thus untouchable, the holy grail of all competitive mankind.
Except not "everyone" can do the things on that laundry list, or can get even close.
When you pull out the risk, it turns out quite a few can and do. Easiest example to cite is to look at Honald's actual climbing ability relative to the masses.
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tripmind
Sport climber
San Diego
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May 22, 2015 - 06:04am PT
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In the past year or so there have been a series of videos put out by EpicTV (dare i reference this here), of very precise and risky wingsuit flights, most of which involve the wingsuiters flying under large structures.
In the first episode they illegally jump out of a cesna and fly under the arm of a large jesus statue in Rio de Janeiro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcbpuG5dZcA
I think the important bit here is that these flights represent the next evolution of wingsuiting. I'm sure someone that takes wingsuiting as seriously as Potter did, was informed of these feats, and maybe that could have been a motivation for his goal to try to clear the Notch in Yosemite, he wasn't trying to emulate someone else, but instead do something incredible before some guy with a redbull sponsorship jumps out of a helicopter and clears it.
I don't know Dean, but I have learned so much about him so quickly, and one of the most inspiring bits to me is how much he gives just to be able to do the things he wanted to on a daily basis.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 22, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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Easiest example to cite is to look at Honald's actual climbing ability relative to the masses.
Not sure if you mean Honnold, but if you do, from what I know, he's sport climbed 5.14, climbed hard 5.13 cracks (placing gear) and recently won the Piolet de Oro for the traverse of the Fitz Roy massif. The masses where I'm from are not climbing quite that hard yet. On the other hand, I see you're from "The Internet" and I've heard the masses from there climb pretty hard.
This is a class of guys whose egos couldn't handle such a thing, they're already outcasts from the real world.
So some of the local kids from here were bouldering down south and guess who showed up? Turns out Honnold is humble and shy and asked politely if he could boulder with the group. Some of these local kids boulder pretty hard (occasional V12s), but they all shared beta and crash pads and had a blast climbing together. This doesn't sound like the person you're describing, to me.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 22, 2015 - 06:53am PT
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He recently did the Gullich "Punks" route. What's that rated these days? Not "cutting edge" sport, but certainly harder than "the masses" are climbing. And, well. like I said, where I'm from "the masses" are not climbing hard 13 cracks or winning the Piolet de Oro.
Obviously Honnold is a media doll because he free solos. The media is fascinated with free soloing. And he has an incredible capacity at that particular skill. So, what about it?
Opps, I'm answering a post that's been deleted!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 22, 2015 - 06:54am PT
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The reason Honnald is an easy example to cite is that he himself has stated openly that his climbing ability isn't outstanding, and that he knows his fame comes from the risks he takes.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 22, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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Largo - thanks for the thread.
No doubt these guys were special. The question IMHO is why they do it. For me, the answer is very much tied to both the environment of us and clif bar and their peers and themselves glorifying facing the danger of extreme sports combined with their natural inclination to seek the thrill of doing it. Sure, they were exceptionally skilled at facing that danger with equanimity. And that cocktail led to their death.
The question for us becomes is that a skill or aptitude that we want to glorify for ourselves and others? For me, I need to stay alive. The glory of facing that danger and having it lead to my death is just not that glorious.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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May 22, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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Great thread John. Here's some raw data for your initial query.
When I was 11 years old, 30 minutes after an episode of THE FALL GUY, I went outside, strung 30 feet of clothesline horizontally between two trees, four feet off the ground, at the far end of a cliff behind our home. I then got on my blue and gold Huffy and pedaled toward the cliff's edge like an escaped con fleeing the fuzz. With images of me grabbing the line and ghost sailing my bike across the ravine I approached the safety line at full downhill 11 year old terminal velocity. I remember little after that moment other than waking up in my living room with my mom beside me and an ice cold compress under my chin cooling a 2nd degree rope burn around my neck. I had misjudged the safety line height and caught it with my neck, arms straight in the air like a victor. I spent three weeks at school with a nasty black and red rope burn from ear to ear under my chin and around my neck, braving insults and inquiries from teachers about "that boy who tried to hang himself." Deep down I was consoled only by the fact that Colt Seavers would have been proud. True story. No lie.
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 09:16am PT
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The modern nihilistic consciousness thru poor fund of knowledge that predominates today bewilders the common persons outlook on death.
I read all the posts of this event and only one person said they will be back.
Only one rare person,
The rest is so nihilistic and drowns in zero .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 22, 2015 - 09:17am PT
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WHOA!! Thats pretty funny since it turned out ok... or did it? Could explain a lot about you micronut ... :)
Got me thinking though.. how many of us who grew up at the right time tried to copy Evil Kneivel and managed a painful result or several?
Raising my hand...Most of the kids I knew too.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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May 22, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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Of course daredevil stunts bring emulators. Is that even in question? Thanks to Johnny Knoxville, it even has a name. The Jackass Effect. YouTube is full of dumb kids setting themselves on fire, jumping off their parent's roof, etc.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 22, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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Ahhh but did we really need Johnny Knoxville or Evil Kneivel to do dumbass crap like that? Seemed to me Johnny was just doing stuff we did as kids but taking it to a bigger level. For that matter not always a bigger level.. ahh the stupid stuff kids do.
That settles it in my mind .. young men do stupid stuff. Some grow out of it..sorta.
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c wilmot
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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It could be argued that thinking you will come back in some form is narcissistic and even selfish. Honestly that is a nice notion- but much in the same sense of rational as going to a "heaven." If it comforts some to think in such a manner- great.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 22, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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What's telling if not disappointing about this thread is how little evolutionary perspective there is.
From that perspective you're not in charge, nature is. Young males do what they do - they take risks, they distinguish themselves, they explore and disburse, they raise a ruckus - because it is the evolutionarily productive thing to do. It's a component in a grand balancing act that keeps our species gene pool healthy. It's nature's way of keeping us robust, of keeping our evolutionary trajectory robust.
There's also a gender component. We see it in risk taking in the mts. We see it in ISIS fighters. We see it in our greatest grand schemes that (attempt to) change the world (culture). Study the distribution bell curves of males and females; the male curves are way more spread out in terms of variables that relate to risk taking, exploration, expendibility, death.
Without the evolutionary perspective though, none of this makes sense.
ref: Is There Anything Good about Men? Roy Baumeister
"Death has to win only once, but life has to win everyday."
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 22, 2015 - 10:16am PT
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^^^^ Your the only thing disappointing about this thread Fruitless!
For a science guy, you don't seem to be keepin up very well?
We're 49% nature and 51% nurture. Didn't you know? Science just proved it. No room for free will I guess. Man I love science! :-)
This is only a half truth tho. Oviously if humans are more of a product of the Environment than that of Bioligy. Free Will IS substantiated.
vvvvv Exhibit #2. What does that have to do with the OP? We all know animals and evolution threw evilness in our laps. Murder, deceit, Fornication, gossip, etc. But today with the help thru science we can understand and with the use of our Environmental FreeWill we can combat these natural animalistic genetic urges. First order is to forgive the monkeys, for they know not what they do. Then dissolve the evilness with goodness : )
Have a nice day!
vvvvvvv
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 22, 2015 - 10:51am PT
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Sorry wbraun - if my fund of knowledge included a certainty that I'd be back in time to pick up my daughter from school, I might have a different perspective on death :-) My fund of knowledge does include being a parent though. A lot of people's fund includes that.
Blueblockr - kind of tongue in cheek - just love the math and certainty of science - don't really think those numbers mean a whole lot or really inform us on free will. Yes I believe that we're a product of both nature and nurture with or without that study.
Our environment - supertopo - we're having this conversation in an environment that selects for, and that we selected for, our inclinations towards facing the danger of the extreme sport of rock climbing. For some of us it's more extreme than others. Regardless, those other wankers who exist outside this environment - they have their inclinations and affecting and affected environment too, and it's kind of different than ours.
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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May 22, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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The glory of facing that danger and having it lead to my death is just not that glorious If the danger someone is facing by doing something they love results in their death, then I can't think of a more "glorious" way to die, other than while saving someone's life. I suppose that would be the ultimate. But I have to agree that life becomes meaningless when one throws it away foolishly and lives selfishly.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 22, 2015 - 11:11am PT
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Lots of perspectives here, and also a number of issues conflated. In particular,
1. The existential "rightness" or "wrongness" of high-risk activities. Is there something intrinsically "unholy" about embracing such pursuits?
2. The effects high-risk activities may have on others when these activities are actively popularized by the media. (The original issue raised by Largo.) Does the dissemination and celebration of high-risk pursuits lure "innocents" to try these pursuits? (And, by implication, do the participants and/or the purveyors have any responsibility for the what happens?)
3. The more individual effects of social pressure and group dynamics in subcultures that value high-risk activities (as described by, for instance, Lady Scarlet.) Can friends or people in groups you aspire to belong to get you to do things that are beyond your best judgement?
Some comments on these.
1. I think trad climbers are on shaky ground when they essentially declare that another climber has stepped over the risk line. Risk, or perhaps I should say that effective performance in the presence of risk, is a critical ingredient of trad climbing. Without it, you have sport climbing, whose essential goals are different. This is why folks get the panties in a twist when someone bolts a run-out trad section—risk that was an essential part of the endeavor was eliminated. And given that all trad climbers not simply accept, but in fact embrace risk as one of the defining components of what they do, it is, if I may say so, unseemly to proclaim that the risks you have chosen are ok but the risks someone else has chosen are not—unless one can argue that the person taking those “unjustifiable” risks is doing so in ignorance of what the real stakes are (i.e. are just being stupid, the Darwin award category).
2. Although data may be lacking, I think there is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence, some of it shared in this thread, that young people may try to emulate activities they see in the media without any of the skills and experience required and without any real appreciation f the stakes. I think it is almost inevitable that some kid will see a piece on Honnold and will try to solo a cliff (or climb a building) somewhere. But free-soloing is in some ways a special case, because you don’t need anything to try it yourself: just walk up to a rock and start climbing. Wingsuit base jumping is at the other end of that spectrum; you need all kinds of gear and the ability to access appropriate locales. Even clueless teenagers aren’t likely to put on a batman cape after school and jump off the town water tower.
3. In some ways, at least for the climbing community internally, the role of group and individual social pressures in pushing people to override their the gut judgements is the most complicated of these concerns. Accident reports are full of commentary about how someone thought things were getting out of hand but said nothing. I’d guess that anyone who has climbed for a while has at some time allowed themselves to be talked into something they really didn’t think was a good idea. One of the things that makes good partnerships is a common underlying view of what risks to take.
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