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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 20, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
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Per the recent BASE jumping deaths in Yosemite Valley, one paper wrote:
"Clif Bar’s decision (to withdraw sponsorship from Potter, Honnold, etc.) was a controversial one that came under heavy critique by the climbing community, who noted that Potter and the other dropped athletes were some of the most incredible and innovative athletes on the planet, the people who take sports to new places and offer a glimpse into what is possible. Others expressed support for the idea that a company shouldn’t be promoting activities – especially in an age of YouTube and viral videos, where young people might seek to emulate and copy the stunts they see their heroes doing – and which have such a high risk of death."
The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared that unwitting people, or at any rate, folks not up to the challenge, might look at what Potter and Honnold et al are doing (or were doing) and would be encouraged to try it themselves and die terribly in the process.
For this to be a viable theory there must be some evidence that somewhere, at some time - either in BASE, highlining or free soloing - people have tried to ape the feats of their heros and have died in the process.
What are the examples of this happening in the three disciplines just mentioned? I am not asking for a speculative argument, however well reasoned, but rather for concrete evidence to validate the notion that anyone has actually died trying to be someone they were not or from trying something they would not otherwise have tried without seeing the Honnold vids and so forth.
JL
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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May 20, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
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In the center of New Jersey is a Cliff that has a history.
It is called Watchung. It is a short wall of vertical "trapp Rock" over the last forty years at least six young people have fallen off ,needing rescue . They were all trying to "climb" a term the news media pointedly use broadly.
I know of two specific climbers who were emulating the mags when they blew off the5.7 corner.
The repetitive rescue calls have closed a cliff that has seen decades of great climbers.
From Bill Shockley to to Lynn Hill.
As with so many climbing areas in dense population centers
Mass marketing reaches the inebriated - what often happens when non climbers see climbing
And then are hanging out,and see bouldering they think and take any chance to showboat, copy, emulate the parlor trick that shirtless guy just did on that rock . The results vary but the stories in house in rescue squads would make good fodder for the Largo treatment .
We were about ten years younger than a wild bunch of stoners who's antics were more driven, more youthful ,our thing than the 20yr older,Dave craft and the other Vulgarians ruling the Gunks .
Both groups were legendary for group cordless ascents. The bad habit continues today.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 20, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
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Undoubtedly some have been inspired to become Climbers, Wingsuiters and such from video's they have seen.
Films and books certainly influenced my skiing.
I became a wallclimber due to one film. ElCapitan. Dunno if I would have without it.
Had I been killed one could I suppose blame those guys..
But that would have been wrong. I made my choices after a lot of learning and skill building, yes inspired by that film but carefully built skills step by step... it worked out.. sometimes it doesn't for others.
I doubt anyone is out there wingsuiting without proper training. Once that occurs and perhaps even without it they become responsible for their decisions.
I suppose maybe freesoloing might possibly have a direct connection.. it's something rescue groups have to pull even tourists off cliffs for doing. It takes no training or experience at all to get in over you head freesoloing.. kids do it every day in trees.
But I sure don't have any direct examples of someone who went out to do it and got hurt directly due to a video they watched.
Suspect it has happened though.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 20, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
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Quantifying the number, if any, of people emulating Honnold, Potter et al would be a nearly impossible task. Someone would have to say...."I'm going out to do just what so and so did."
I'm not saying that I think people do or don't emulate extreme sport legends....I'm just saying establishing a metric would be extremely difficult.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 20, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
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The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared that unwitting people, or at any rate, folks not up to the challenge, might look at what Potter and Honnold et al are doing (or were doing) and would be encouraged to try it themselves and die terribly in the process.
Unlikely that Clif Bar's execs had this "fear"; much more likely were worried that Clif Bar athletes (or individuals aspiring to be sponsored by Clif Bar) would shuffle off this mortal coil pursuing their chosen art/sport/whatever.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
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Noobs will always do crazy stuff. They have forever and long befor videos were out there.
If Cliff Bar and others would say, We can't with a clear conscience keep feeding money to people involved in sports so risky that the top doods keep getting killed (re: BASE, etc) - I would agree with this.
But that is a different angle than suggesting that fatal accidents in BASE, free soloing and highlining have actually occurred by way of players duped/encouraged into their fatal acts through watching videos and so forth.
My feeling is that the former argument is valid and is the rightful choice of any business, while the later is a cheap scare tactic that has no empirical evidence to back it up. At all.
JL
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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It is not so much the existence of a causal connection between a novice killing himself because of what he saw on a candy bar wrapper. Rather it is the effect on the subconscious mind of the buying public when a corporate name is associated with the unfortunate demise of a sponsored athlete. Capitalism, it is all about the money. Sales are generated by warm fuzzy feelings. Because Black Diamond customers are climbers, BD probably worries less about this perception than a snack food company would.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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For this to be a viable theory there must be some evidence that somewhere, at some time - either in BASE, highlining or free soloing - people have tried to ape the feats of their heros and have died in the process.
What are the examples of this happening in the three disciplines just mentioned? I am not asking for a speculative argument, however well reasoned, but rather for concrete evidence to validate the notion that anyone has actually died trying to be someone they were not or from trying something they would not otherwise have tried without seeing the Honnold vids and so forth.
That would be Potter and Hunt, to choose the most recent example. They must have been inspired by someone doing something. They were both wrong, and played above their level of skill.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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Another way of looking at this... how many of these things would occur without any media at all? Would our sports exist in any way like they do without all the books and films that have been made about them?
What if no one but a few folks involved knew about the first climbs done in the alps? or actually no one knew anymore..since they have long since passed.. I'd guess we would still be trudging up mountains like they did 150 years ago.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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Well to me Graham comes to mind right off. Young groom following his hero. Of course by now - as I understand - he was an experienced pilot (is that the word?) But I would presume he was largely following in Dean's wake. And I'm not necessarily criticizing that - just commenting on the relationship.
Meanwhile I would look at Cliffbar's decision somewhat differently. Companies don't sponsor athletes for the athletes' benefit. Its strictly a cost/benefit analysis. How many more candy bars will we sell with Dean's photo in our add... vs how many fewer will we sell if he gets killed. From a business point of view I think they made the decision none to soon. Can you imagine the flack they would have gotten for promoting dangerous and deadly endeavors given recent tragic events.
One man's point of view.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 20, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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I believe their concern was not people emulating the high risks, but just that the sponsored athletes might die,
and the company could feel partly responsible (since they "endorsed and encouraged" the athletes' prior risky achievements).
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/sports/clif-bar-drops-sponsorship-of-5-climbers-citing-risks-they-take.html
http://www.clifbar.com/text/a-letter-to-the-climbing-community
A Letter to the Climbing Community
Over the past few days, there’s been a heated dialogue about our recent decision to withdraw sponsorship of several climbers. We’ve watched, listened and been humbled by the conversation, and wanted to share with you where we are on this topic. Our hope is that we can provide clarity around our climbing sponsorships and to demonstrate our continued commitment to supporting this great sport and the climbing community.
Climbing has been a part of our company’s DNA from the beginning. Over a year ago, we started having conversations internally about our concerns with B.A.S.E. jumping, highlining and free-soloing. We concluded that these forms of the sport are pushing boundaries and taking the element of risk to a place where we as a company are no longer willing to go. We understand that some climbers feel these forms of climbing are pushing the sport to new frontiers. But we no longer feel good about benefitting from the amount of risk certain athletes are taking in areas of the sport where there is no margin for error; where there is no safety net.
As such, going forward we will not be sponsoring climbers who are primarily recognized for free-soloing, B.A.S.E. jumping and highlining. This change in sponsorship approach did not come without great debate.
Ultimately, this decision came down to a sense of responsibility to our own story, what we endorse and the activities that we encourage – which is largely reflected in our sponsorship of athletes. This responsibility extends to adventurers of all types – climbers, outdoor enthusiasts, as well as children.
We have and always will support athletes in many adventure-based sports, including climbing. And inherent in the idea of adventure is risk. We appreciate that assessing risk is a very personal decision. This isn’t about drawing a line for the sport or limiting athletes from pursuing their passions. We’re drawing a line for ourselves. We understand that this is a grey area, but we felt a need to start somewhere and start now.
This is a new path for us and we haven’t been perfect in the way that we’ve communicated or executed the change in sponsorships. For that we’re sorry and take full responsibility. Climbing has been a big part of Clif Bar’s history and we remain as committed as ever to the sport that we love.
 The Clif Bar Team |
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 20, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
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John...what was it like being sponsored by Camel Tobacco company...?
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 20, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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If Cliff Bar and others would say, We can't with a clear conscience keep feeding money to people involved in sports so risky that the top doods keep getting killed (re: BASE, etc) - I could totally agree with this.
Clif Bar has said exactly that, virtually word for word, when they dropped their big-name climbers. At no point did they justify the drop in terms of impressionable Johnnie/Susie.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
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Anyone believing that Dean Potter died because he watched other people's videos or that Graham was BASE jumping only because of Dean never met either one of those guys.
Perhaps a better question is: How many of you out there have been duped or encouraged into doing dangerous shite that you never would have done otherwise save for trying to emulate your "heros?"
This was not Cliff Bars stated reason for dumping folks, but was more of a common refrain raised by all sorts of outfits, as quoted in the opening statement.
JL
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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May 20, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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while the later is a cheap scare tactic that has no empirical evidence to back it up whatsoever.
Well stated, as is your eloquent and succinct original question.
There is practically no evidence of the monkey see, monkey do dynamic going on here. It takes so much time and dedication to achieve the levels currently being practiced by the elite athletes of these disciplines that very few from the "mainstream" population can even imagine starting on the road to such endeavors.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 20, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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Perhaps a better question is: How many of you out there have been duped or encouraged into doing dangerous shite that you never would have done otherwise save for trying to emulate your "heros?"
This is a rather bizarre argument for you to make, John. This was the entire culture of Yos in the early days.
How many hundreds of stories have been heard of Stonemasters dragging newbies up rock WAY beyond their skills, so as to have a belayer?
This is well described in "Beyond the Vertical" by Kor, who did it all the time.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
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Again - noobs are going to do crazy sh#t - be they try to drive like NASCAR racers or free solo like Honnold. But the notion that say, a free soloer is setting a bad example for others, is quite possibly an untruth in terms of triggering accidents. And while saying you want to cut association with anyone who does "crazy stuff" for fear of encouraging other to do same, might be a "valid business decision," it might at the same time foster a myth - that people die in the adventure world trying to ape their heros.
I'm simply not convinced this is true, and would be interested to hear from those out there who have not died but perhaps have gotten into big jams by trying to be like Potter or Honnold or (fill in the blank).
And Ken, the Stonemasters were very influenced to try rad stuff and to yank others up rad stuff but that is different than trying do-or-die adventures. Those are the ones I am talking about. I am not suggesting that we have not all been encouraged by great performers to push our limits. Pushing the limits is a different animal than do or die.
As Kalimon just said: There is practically no evidence of the monkey see, monkey do dynamic going on here. It takes so much time and dedication to achieve the levels currently being practiced by the elite athletes of these disciplines that very few from the "mainstream" population can even imagine starting on the road to such endeavors.
To suggest that those in this elite level are there only by dint of peer pressure or through trying to ape their mentors seems unlikely to me and is nothing I have ever seen.
JL
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 20, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
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I certainly banged myself up a couple times trying to be like Scot Schmidt. Fortunately not too badly. Hopped some pretty sweet cliffs though and still like to do it on a good day. Never would have gotten half as good without the inspiration.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 20, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
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Perhaps Bridwell put it best: " standards will be pushed and slowly raised and those not honed to the fine edge will take the dreaded groundfall".
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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May 20, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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Red Bull took the exact opposite stance as Clif and made an empire that dwarfs little Clif.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 20, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
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a credible study would require a well-funded, scientific approach, likely by a well-known university
serious post?
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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May 20, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
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How many of you out there have been duped or encouraged into doing dangerous shite that you never would have done otherwise save for trying to emulate your "heros?"
It must depend on the individual. Most people will realize that they need to work their way up the ladder rather than leaping right for the top . . . to imitate the potentially deadly act performed by someone far beyond your own ability level is in itself poor decision making.
"No guru, no teacher, no method."
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jstan
climber
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May 20, 2015 - 10:09pm PT
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After reading posts too numerous to count, from people all saying they found Dean inspiring, it is not too much to conclude to one degree or another people were influenced. Now let's take a slightly wider view.
Jeb Corliss seems to get more press from his exploits than does anyone else. Recently he flew through a passage in China not significantly larger than himself. (Not the cave.) According to those who have viewed photos from Dean's camera, he and Graham actually collided as they were passing through the notch, by itself an expert exit some say. Possibly they were attempting a side by side passage.
It is just possible these two deaths were examples of precisely that which JL seeks
If that is not enough consider auto racing, the more dangerous olympic sports, alpine climbing and the Guinness book of world records.
Rick Sylvester made a comment above that is very much to the point. "Once you have mounted the tiger, it is very difficult to get off." As we all try to express our pain over what has happened we need to try and deal with perhaps the real core of the problem.
As the audience, we and our fascination with such things
may be the tiger.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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May 20, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
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Seems Ojai Alex gave John an example. Guy didn't die but John wasn't asking only for deaths.
The fact that there is 1 seems to me to point to the very likelihood of more than one.
Quantifying the number, if any, of people emulating Honnold, Potter et al would be a nearly impossible task. Someone would have to say...."I'm going out to do just what so and so did."
I'm not saying that I think people do or don't emulate extreme sport legends....I'm just saying establishing a metric would be extremely difficult.-Donini
My thoughts too.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 20, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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Something is not meshing here:
"Clif Bar’s decision (to withdraw sponsorship from Potter, Honnold, etc.) was a controversial one that came under heavy critique by the climbing community, who noted that Potter and the other dropped athletes were some of the most incredible and innovative athletes on the planet, the people who take sports to new places and offer a glimpse into what is possible. Others expressed support for the idea that a company shouldn’t be promoting activities – especially in an age of YouTube and viral videos, where young people might seek to emulate and copy the stunts they see their heroes doing – and which have such a high risk of death."
At this stage we have "others" in the above sentence seeming to clearly indicate a sampling of the opinions of members of the "climbing community" and not an opinion generated by Clif Bar itself. I say this without access to the full article,so I could be missing something.(If my reading is correct then the author of this article was openly suggesting that some climbers were advancing the emulation idea in their reaction to Clif Bar's revoking sponsorship--which is frankly somewhat hard to believe,although not completely)
Unless I'm entertaining the wrong presumption,therefore the statement:
The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared...
Is an erroneous reading of the content of the article cited, and not a firm basis for suggesting that Clif Bar in this context was promulgating the unsubstantiated emulation "theory."
QUINTL and some others got it right when he stated:
That's the stated reason. I don't see anything elsewhere. If they were worried about emulation, I'd expect them to say that -
The entire thread seems to have been at the outset-- at least the bit regarding Clif Bar-- based partly upon an erroneous reading of the context of the cited article excerpt. Again,unless I'm missing something.
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
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Ken M -- "That would be Potter and Hunt, to choose the most recent example.
They must have been inspired by someone doing something.
They were both wrong, and played above their level of skill."
Nope ... only foolish nihilists project nonsense like Ken M
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 20, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
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As Kalimon just said: There is practically no evidence of the monkey see, monkey do dynamic going on here. It takes so much time and dedication to achieve the levels currently being practiced by the elite athletes of these disciplines that very few from the "mainstream" population can even imagine starting on the road to such endeavors.
To suggest that those in this elite level are there only by dint of peer pressure or through trying to ape their mentors seems unlikely to me and is nothing I have ever seen.
John, it was *you* that created this argument, seemingly so that you could shoot it down. You have posted NOTHING that indicates that was the motivation of Cliff. We aren't any more interested in your "theories" than you are in ours. Show us evidence of Cliff's position, or give up.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2015 - 11:58pm PT
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when we see a thing and it gets us thinking, the consequences can be quite astounding. Could we climb that rock face? could we fly like the ravens?
who knows where that leads, or could lead
our "heros" are all around us, extolling us on to be better and better, they don't always know how they are being heard
IME, there are various modes of understanding. There is a discursive understanding that looks at components and associations and functioning or at any rate various computations. This is a kind of instrumentational take on something. It is objective because what the instruments tell us is apparently conjured by the instruments, not our sense data. Our sight is limited for, say, microscope work on proteins. A microscope, greatly enhances our ability to accurately deconstruct a given protein into relevant components, and go from there with our symbolic wranglings (numbers, words, etc.).
Another kind of knowing is direct experience, or direct encountering. Whereas the first mode provided the topo map, the second involves actually climbing the wall as our sentience absorbs the totality of it in real time. In the later, we come to "know" the wall in ways not possible from the discursive perspective, just as the discursive can tell us things about the physical nature of the wall not evident while actually climbing it.
The experiential mode is not an attempt to do the work of the strictly discursive, nor is the discursive an attempt to understand the experiential. They are two side of the same coin - human reality - but each is a perspective with angles impossible to see from the opposite side.
JL
can you imagine what it is like to soar like those two in my image above, in that sublime setting of golden granite?
is that a dangerous thought? to perhaps believe you might find a way to do it? and then to experience it?
maybe jstan is right, but we can imagine those things, and not only that, we understand how to start along the way of realizing what we imagine. And whether or not we can actually pull it off has real risk involved, the consequences of which we weigh, and then choose of our own volition.
A choice informed by the sum of all our experiences, of everything we have learned, the sum of our human existence, but it is a choice we make alone, ultimately, it is, after all, our experience.
Largo's OP polemic seems to miss the mark.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 12:08am PT
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Kids certainly emmulate their hero's. Weather it be from video games, YouTube, reading, or first hand experience. Kids do what they see other kids doing! It's called Evolution; The changing of an genetic organism by interaction with/against the environment.
A "health" food bar co. like Cliff Bar doesn't make any money from the followers of Extreme Athletes pushin the barriers,and rackin up a death toll : ( Only gym rats and sport climbers eat cliff bars anyway.
All sponsors want something of their athletes..
Take RedBull, They encourage their athletes to go higher, faster, longer, etc, with the allure of the all mighty dollar. Redbulls product certainly isn't good for the health. A girl actually died by drinking to many in a day. It's amazing there haven't been more deaths in the sports RB sponsors.i doubt if Baja Raceing, Formula 1, or Supercross combined will have as bad a year as BaseJumping has had!
Shouldn't it be concieved that if a sponsor baits their athlete to "go a little higher", knowing the reprocussion could lead to death, and sure enough it did. They could be held liable? Maybe not monetarily(cause of signed waivers), but spiritually!
Maybe a company like Cliff Bar didn't want the public to hold that kind of suspicion? Or the guilt.
Edit: Mighty hiker, Nice post!
About that head cam video, shouldn't the next of kin hold "the rights" to it? Why can NPS release it to the public? That could be worth a lot of coin, you know, to the ghoulish a#%holes chompin at the bit
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 21, 2015 - 01:59am PT
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if anyone can stand watching another wingsuit vid... here's one (french guy). last comment in the video is a kid saying 'I'm going to do that when I get big'. hmmm
https://vimeo.com/50006726
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Degaine
climber
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May 21, 2015 - 03:25am PT
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If you look at the statistics for mountain sports (ski touring, mountaineering, etc.), the majority of accidents/deaths are made up of middle-aged men with considerable experience.
Here's a good report and analysis on accidents in the mountains:
http://www.petzl.com/fondation/foundation-accidentologie-livret_EN.pdf?v=1
I believe the same goes for BASE jumping / wingsuiting (as was stated in this or another thread), but I don't have the stats.
Based on the above stats and other accident information I've read, droves of newbies are not getting knocked off in the mountains. My educated guess would be that in mountain sports (climbing, mountaineering, skiing steep enough terrain to avalanche, BASE, etc.) the fear and survival instinct kick in pretty early to dissuade any "copycats" from going to far.
Activities like Parkour became popular, but in spite of the millions of views of experienced "parkourists" backflipping from one high-rise apartment building to the next, to my knowledge there have not been any mass newbie deaths doing the same. Again, my educated guess would be that the immediate fear and survival instinct triggered are just too strong.
The same doesn't go for advertising or glorifying slow-killers like smoking or overeating - habits people have historically "emulated" or copied in mass.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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May 21, 2015 - 04:22am PT
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The tragic deaths of Dean Potter and Graham Hunt are disturbing, untimely, senseless and causes each of us to deal with the unsettled facets of the event until it fits neatly back into our kitbag of our philosophy of our life 101. As a mother, grandmother, auntie, Earth Mother, my spirit is extremely heavy with the loss of such talented gentlemen who had more to create and share; we are all poorer without them. My thoughts will be for all who choose the edge, the speed, the height, the depths, that you will choose to honor and protect the sanctity of your life; treat it with care and adoration.
Regarding Clif Bar pulling sponsorships....Dean had a sketchy record of pushing the legal envelope. Base jumping is illegal in Yose, yet he elected to let his drive override the quest for the straight and narrow, legal adventure. Clif Bar could possibly have found itself being sued or subject to other legal entanglements should a novice try to emulate those whose reputation is one of living/performing on the edge while receiving Clif Bar's seal of approval, blessing, sponsorship, etc.... I believe the corporation has acted in the best interest of the entity and protecting the product and stockholders.
Be well & blessed.
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duncan
climber
London, UK
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May 21, 2015 - 04:53am PT
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Perhaps a better question is: How many of you out there have been duped or encouraged into doing dangerous shite that you never would have done otherwise save for trying to emulate your "heros?"
I was an enthusiastic free-soloist for the first four or five years of my early climbing career (30 years BY - before YouTube). I was consciously aping people like you JL and those you wrote about. Fortunately, like most, I survived my youth.
Nowadays I go to the opera but I don't find myself encouraged to high risk behaviour like spending my entire month's wages in one night down the pub (La Bohème) or marrying my sister (Die Walküre). Perhaps emulating your heroes is a young person's thing?
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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May 21, 2015 - 05:20am PT
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amen mom, the entity does not have a conscience it has business interests plain and simple.
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Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
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May 21, 2015 - 05:52am PT
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Largo,
I originally wrote a more benign post but I'm back after a few minutes of reflection. I have great respect for you but think you're trying to ease your conscience with a delicate argument. YOU have lured LOTS of people into climbing, including me. When I soloed it wasnt because it made sense it's because my climbing hero's did and said it was awesome and I wanted to experience climbing to the fullest so I took my hero's advice. Most climber bio's start with some story about learning on Mom's clothes line or some ill-informed foray like Dean Potters solos of local cliff. How many articles have you written that follow either the heroic overcoming of odds or the bumbling guy who got lucky and survived or toughing it out leads to success storyline?
Can i draw I direct link from your writing to someone's death - no. Does that relieve you or some responsibility - no. The entire climbing community is built on luring noobs in over their heads, or even experienced climbers to keep pushing to limits. We all know that and we participate in it. The magazines and books are not filled with motherly advice but with a common theme of pushing it. I pushed it (a little) and I lived. If I had died it would have been pursuing a directly inspired activity.
Let's be clear, I am not assigning blame, I am assigning the awareness of responsibility.
Ok, let's depersonalize it a little and look at entrepreneurship. Go to the bookstore, hundreds of books and dozens of magazines about how awesome entrepreneurship is with the familiar storyline of climbing; bootstrapping it, in over your head, perseverance, success. But people get wiped out. They bet big, lose their business, wreck their marriage, health, etc. It's absolutely tragic but no one takes responsibility for the culture of luring people onward. We just say; oh that was an outlier, focus on the Steve Jobs story again. (Don't worry about Bachar, pay attention to Dean. Oh, I mean pay attention to Alex - see it's not that dangerous, look at Alex go. Go Alex go). Bachar is gone and his lessons dont influence young climbers. A year from now the same with Dean and Alex will still be getting all the press and youtubes.
The forward arc of human development is people taking risks and pushing limits. I get that. I'm an climber and entrepreneur and it's in my DNA to take risks and like a moth to a flame I was inspired by your stories and Dean's videos. Hell, even at the age of 48 I totally want to wingsuit because I've been drooling over the videos. That would have never happened before the age of youtube/gopro.
But just because I'm part of the problem doesn't absolve me of the responsibility of my words. If I spent a lot of time showboating or luring people into my activities I would have to take some responsibility for their outcomes. Based on all that, I think Cliff Bar got it right and the climbing culture has gotten it wrong.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 21, 2015 - 06:05am PT
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again noobs are going to do crazy shit
Lol Soo true
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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May 21, 2015 - 06:22am PT
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Largo-
In the realm of writing that explicitly elevates the testosterone-fuelled exploits of adolescent males into the canon of epic man-vs.-nature battle, your own tales bestride the heap like a Colossus. You gonna jump on everyone else for this practice now, with the wisdom of your age?
They certainly had an effect on me.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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May 21, 2015 - 06:53am PT
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It's illuminating to read comments about this event on other forums. We are rightfully, but somewhat uncharacteristically, cautious in our posts on this topic. We flirt with gravity, but we are not birds. We savor danger; that doesn't make us lions.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 21, 2015 - 07:05am PT
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I imagine Potter and Hunt's route of flight is atop every serious flyers list about now. Why? Not because its there, more like the top gun mentality.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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May 21, 2015 - 07:11am PT
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The OP quote is from a newspaper. What did Clif Bar actually say?
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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May 21, 2015 - 07:21am PT
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What are the examples of this happening in the three disciplines just mentioned? I am not asking for a speculative argument, however well reasoned, but rather for concrete evidence to validate the notion that anyone has actually died trying to be someone they were not or from trying something they would not otherwise have tried without seeing the Honnold vids and so forth.
It's not a viral video, but there is an example in Hermann Buhl's Nanaga Parbat Pilgramage in the first chapter, or so, I believe. He and his friend were trying to emulate some climbers when his friend took the final fall.
It's all around us, Largo, you have to see that.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 21, 2015 - 07:24am PT
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Emulation is part of the learning process. Young children emulate their parents in countless ways.
Why this knashing of teeth over Clf Bar? Companies who use atheletes for marketing can and do makes changes pretty much whenever they wish. It's not as if these atheletes are checking into the office for a 9 to 5 work stint. They're there for image and it's the companies choice whether or not they present the right one.
If you as a consumer dont like a companies image vote with your pocketbook. I don't buy Clif Bars because I don't like the product.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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May 21, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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By way of analogy, why not take a look at automobile racing and sponsorship and the dread alcohol. The sample population is much larger.
Are there instances where folks throw down a few (or more than a few) drinks and emulate car racers. Yeah, I think so. I admit to having done it as a youth. Luckily, no crashes.
So, although you're not finding a lot of evidence of it in the three disciplines mentioned by Clif Bar, I'm sure it is happening.
Here's the aftermath of one that just occurred here in San Diego recently.
Two, and most likely three, dead medical students. One hospitalized DUI suspect.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 21, 2015 - 07:54am PT
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My wife won't let me buy Clif bars, especially if she will be downwind.
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WBraun
climber
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May 21, 2015 - 08:22am PT
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The people inside the box can't really support the people who are not inside the box.
Tooo scary for the people inside the box ......
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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May 21, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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I'll pick a relatively safe example for a minute.
Years back a friend of mine shared his perspective on the early days of slacklining. He ran into Chongo off in the woods away from everyone playing with a strap just 2 feet off the ground, and had a chat and gave it a go. He didn't think much of it.
A few weeks later Chongo had things dialed and moves his setup prominently into Camp 4 for all to see. Only this time it is set up just above crotch level. Dude after dude comes by and see Chongo gracefully balancing on the thing, and they just have to have a go. Chongo gets to sit back and see dude after dude get nailed.
Slacklining has now become a sport all on its own.
Wingsuit flying looks really really cool too, but hurts worse than a nut shot if you screw up.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 21, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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Donini: . . . a nearly impossible task [to prove] . . . establishing a metric would be extremely difficult.
A very pragmatic evaluation.
An intelligent post by Chugash. Well-said.
I’ve taught ethics (at least in business schools), and I don’t think you can intellectualize such issues. You can’t really analyze them with cost-benefit analyses. You can’t simply say that people do stupid things. Nor saying that “stuff happens” is very enlightening.
What about working for an oil company? Running pharmaceutical testing in third world countries? Using animals to test cosmetics? Building gas-guzzling automobiles? Being a tenement owner in a slum area? Selling goods or services that people really aren’t very good for them (cigarettes, alcohol, foods loaded with chemicals made by Dow or Dupont)?
Ethics happens on two levels: One, it is something that a person comes to him or herself: what is the personal ethics that YOU believe in and live by? Two, ethics is something that a community establishes for itself implicitly or explicitly. Do your ethics synch up with your community’s?
In time, ethics becomes aesthetics (especially so in climbing). When either a community or a person no longer feels comfortable with its or his or her ethics, then they should move on.
Ethics is not something that *others* can determine for *others.* (That’s legality or morality.) What matters is what YOURS is and whether you are hanging out with people that you admire.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 21, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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Good post, Chugach.
Many fine points.
Like you said, it's in our DNA.
So what can we do? But plod on and give it our best.
Life is a balancing act. It's also a crap shoot.
At once a spectacle and a tragedy.
Good point by Sumner, too, I had similar thoughts.
.....
Perhaps after awhile the go-pro video should be posted to social media.
As a further contribution to any consideration of these things - insofar as that's the aim.
Knowing better is doing better. Right?
Maybe?
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bixquite
Social climber
humboldt nation
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May 21, 2015 - 09:27am PT
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Nature, the cosmos, is ever expanding in self discovery, reaching into the dark nothingness
of non being with fingers like fractals decoding the algorithms of existence.
To separate our selves from the whole cosmos is a misconception of being. A bamboo plant
can't grow wrong, it just grows toward the light. Humans reach to grasp the great unknown
or bloom into the conscious universe through art, music, building, religion etc.
I believe it's encoded in the DNA fibers of the cosmos to reach for the sun.
Dean, Graham, Stanley and Scion as cosmic samurai continue to inspire the consciousness of what is possible to the thin line beyond which you really can't fake.
Fire on the mountain
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 21, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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MikeL, love yer posts, man. I've always thought that teaching ethics at a
business school must be like asking the head hunters who are heating up the
water for the soup du jour to "go easy on the MSG today." Does it even take
two hands to count the number of companies who have undertaken serious
changes based on 'ethics' that are not conflated with preaching to the choir?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 21, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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The Clif Bar thing is somewhat different than the NOOB thing. Clif didn't want to be associated with activities perceived as exceptionally dangerous.
I don't think, for the most part that the activities that Dean, Alex, etc. are famous for are things most NOOBs would try. As someone said below, the fear factor and skill requirements are too high. No gumby is going to try to solo the Rostrum or Moonlight Buttress. Or try wingsuit proximity flying.
But gumbies always have and always will try stuff a little over their heads. Since time predating writing probably, much less Go Pros. And I'm not convinced Go-Pros have changed much in regard to that. Take away them and YouTube and you'll still have teens wanting to push the limits before they are ready. Almost all of us here did. And most of us got away with it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2015 - 10:33am PT
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Interesting to read people's take on all of this.
For the record, I wasn't saying Cliff Bar backed out of their sponsorship fearing Honnold, Potter et al were being fatal role models to unwitting noobs - or to anyone. As stated by many others, they simply didn't feel right about underwriting what they felt were exceptionally dangerous activities. Whethere they did so on moral or business grounds in probably impossible to discern, and likely doesn't matter. But someone, somewhere probably felt that by association, if Cliff Bar were tied to fatal pursuits, the company image would suffer and the bottom line would plunge. That's just survival instincts there, I reckon.
My second point, and one I have been hearing for ages, is that people doing wild and sometimes unhinged acts exert a direct influence on the actions of others. This is the point that seems largely unfounded in plain fact. Yes, we are all enlivened by the idea of hitting like Babe Ruth, running like Bolt, climbing like Potter, but the idea that imagining doing so leads to our own demise is to me, an exaggeration that come out of a kind of advertising mentailty - that is, a company, or an individual, need only say or do somethng and the rest of the crowd - or at least the suggestable ones - will follow suite. Perhaps not nearly at the level of the pros, but at a personally fatal level just the same.
But is this really so? The people doing proximity flying, or soloing 5.13, have done such a lengthy run-up to the big time that while they must have influences, they are in my experience not motivated in small or large part by outside influences.
Another even more slippery issue is belief that the harder the free solo, the more dangerous it is. In fact, it seems that the harder the solo, the more careful and more proficient the soloist becomes, and consequently, few soloers die.
All interesting to ponder...
JL
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 21, 2015 - 10:38am PT
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I hope it isn't trite to observe that emulating role models is a well-engrained human behaviour, particularly among adolescents of all ages.
"Be like Mike" ----multi-million dollar ad campaign.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 21, 2015 - 10:49am PT
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Perhaps a better question is: How many of you out there have been duped or encouraged into doing dangerous shite that you never would have done otherwise save for trying to emulate your "heros?"
I was stupid enough to drink raw eggs after watching Rocky do it, in the Academy Award-winning film. On the other hand, even though I was blown away that Peter Croft soloed ROTC, I was smart enough to know that if I tried such a stunt I would surely get myself killed. Ultimately, I suppose I sympathize with the idea that responsiblilty should belong to the individual doing the act and it seems to me like a sorry excuse to blame our bad decisions on others who we are trying to emulate. I like this point of view because I think it assigns a certain respect to the individual and their ability to make a rational decision (or at least to go through the learning process in their own way). Of course this may be unrealistic: perhaps human beings are really more like dumb machines who go around copying any stupid thing that someone else does (and are better off being controlled as such).
Anyways, I'm not sure if this rant has much to do with the OP.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 21, 2015 - 10:59am PT
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Ethics happens on two levels: One, it is something that a person comes to him or herself: what is the personal ethics that YOU believe in and live by? Two, ethics is something that a community establishes for itself implicitly or explicitly. Do your ethics synch up with your community’s?
In time, ethics becomes aesthetics (especially so in climbing). When either a community or a person no longer feels comfortable with its or his or her ethics, then they should move on.
Ethics is not something that *others* can determine for *others.* (That’s legality or morality.) What matters is what YOURS is and whether you are hanging out with people that you admire.
Mike, intriguing post. Your last sentence, tho, doesn't quite address the issue of how the community establishes it's ethics, such as the climbing community. I think it is through discussions like this thread.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 21, 2015 - 11:05am PT
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Thanks for your thoughts.
We're 49% nature and 51% nurture. Didn't you know? Science just proved it. No room for free will I guess. Man I love science! :-)
The nurture part - I think obviously our environment affects us. If we live in an environment that glorifies facing the danger of extreme sports, that's going to affect us and our beliefs and our behaviors. That's just how our brains work.
But we're not just affected by our environment, we also affect it. If we or Clif Bar glorifies this risky behavior (as our Adhd risk favoring adventurous brains have evolved to do) over say raising a healthy child (as our dna tells us to, and as we become unable to after falling to our deaths) then that's the 51% nurture that we and others are going to be responding to.
Sure go for it if that's your thing. But going for it affects all of us. That's the part that we don't really want to accept responsibility for. Our belief in ourselves as individuals doesn't want us to do that, because we'd have to give something of ourselves up.
With respect to the original question, I'd say this accident is an example. We both read a post by a friend who was pissed that they had chosen the line despite its risks, and felt that this flight was the badge of the alpha dog - wanting to exceed the risky adventure of others.
If we plant ice we're gonna harvest wind.
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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May 21, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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I've seen this emulation more in the backcountry ski and snowboard crowd especially with all of these amazing videos/films of ski/snowboard descents and maybe a false sense of security with avalanche gear and a not so honest assessment of one's ability.
The whole avalanche assessment and changing snow conditions seem to be a huge factor in people getting in over their heads. A changing medium can be much more dangerous and hard to assess than something like a rock climb or a BASE jump.
To simply answer John's question - I'd say TRUE.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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May 21, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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Degaine wrote:
Here's a good report and analysis on accidents in the mountains:
http://www.petzl.com/fondation/foundation-accidentologie-livret_EN.pdf?v=1
droves of newbies are not getting knocked off in the mountains. My educated guess would be that in mountain sports (climbing, mountaineering, skiing steep enough terrain to avalanche, BASE, etc.) the fear and survival instinct kick in pretty early to dissuade any "copycats" from going to far.
The same doesn't go for advertising or glorifying slow-killers like smoking or overeating - habits people have historically "emulated" or copied in mass.
Excellent point Degaine.
Youth is inspired by great achievements, and the individuals Cliff Bar dumped have an impressive list. But Cliff Bar is free to market however they want.
Fear is something that all adventurers deal with. Maybe endeavoring to overcome those fears is part of the attraction. Climbing teaches us all a great deal about ourselves, risk management and our motivations.
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all."
Helen Keller
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 21, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all.
Exactly. Set that as our baseline and then we and Clif bar glorify exposing ourselves to danger, the bigger the better. Because really wingsuiting through that notch is the only way to be truly alive.
And we buy it (according to science :-) at 51%. Like Tom Brady, it's more probable than not that we're cheaters in our human belief creation processes :-)
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 21, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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Another even more slippery issue is belief that the harder the free solo, the more dangerous it is. In fact, it seems that the harder the solo, the more careful and more proficient the soloist becomes, and consequently, few soloers die.
I'd like to see the evidence that supports that theory (taking into account the exponentially greater amount of times that easier routes gets soloed).
Are you sure that's not just your "speculation"?
I guess we all like to demand "evidence" to support statements that we don't find palatable, even when evidence may be extremely difficult or impossible to generate (we can't read people's minds; dead soloers don't typically leave notes explaining their motivation).
But when we like a statement, a little "common sense" seems just fine.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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May 21, 2015 - 12:18pm PT
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Hmmm....
Sketchy Andy comes to mind when he BASE jumped with no previous experience and almost killed himself after hitting the wall.
A guy died while attempting that huge arch swing out in Moab or wherever not too long after that video was posted with everyone dancing around.
In my 6 years of climbing, I have noticed more and more beginner climbers wanting to solo.
We live in an area of increasing narcissism thanks to social media. While most climbers, BASE jumpers, and high-liners have the ego-strength to check themselves and learn the "ropes" in whatever discipline, there is still that small fraction of idiots who have an illusion of invulnerability that will get them killed.
Cheers,
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 21, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
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I'm just curious; years ago when Bachar offered $10,000 to anyone who would follow him around in his free-solos, how many responded?
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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May 21, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
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I would like to highlight to points John brought up in his original post. The first was (in referring to Clif Bar's actions) was implied intent (not verbatim wording). It's hard for me to believe that in their internal discussions the subject of copy catting by the unqualified didn't come up as well as any potential liability issues related to this. I would venture to say most companies are governed more by potential liability issues rather than by their conscious (not implying this is necessarily true with Clif Bar). Secondly, John used the word "unwitting" I believe to describe potential copy catters. Dean and Graham were hardly unwitting followers (as suggested by Ken M )but rather cutting edge innovators. Sometimes the edge cuts sharply. There is a difference between being inspired by the actions of others and then learning and practicing the craft as opposed to the actions of fools who rush in. Clif Bar certainly can do what they please as can the sporting public. I'm sure any sponsorship money was nice to those who received it but Dean, Graham, Alex etal do what they do because they love it.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 21, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
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copy catting by the unqualified
The number one goal being - out of concern for self and family .. that I don't ever get taken out by f*#king up. .. I want to prove that it can be done for a long life, until I'm an old man. Dean Potter
Who are these unqualified? Our hero was unqualified to achieve his number one goal.
I'm human too, and I want to achieve that same goal of not dying because my brain f*#ked up processing all of the information that my environment presents.
And I'm also affected by this environment that we help to create. That's the same reality that we all face.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 21, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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two perhaps vaguely related things
when I was a kid my mom often asked me; "If so and so told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?"
I always said no. and then years later, fixing pitches on leaning tower my partner said "Dude we've gotta jump off this ledge,it will be awesome." so I did and it was.
second thing: http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/the-only-blasphemy
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 21, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
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It was a smart move by Cliffbar to dump these guys. Cliffbar has a bland and boring product with a synthetic texture, and Alex and Dean does not represent that image.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 21, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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My second point, and one I have been hearing for ages, is that people doing wild and sometimes unhinged acts exert a direct influence on the actions of others. This is the point that seems largely unfounded in plain fact. Yes, we are all enlivened by the idea of hitting like Babe Ruth, running like Bolt, climbing like Potter, but the idea that imagining doing so leads to our own demise is to me, an exaggeration that come out of a kind of advertising mentailty - that is, a company, or an individual, need only say or do somethng and the rest of the crowd - or at least the suggestable ones - will follow suite. Perhaps not nearly at the level of the pros, but at a personally fatal level just the same.
Well...I don't think this "wild" and "unhinged acts" would get much play if they weren't advertised to begin with. While I like watching these exploits, they make good entertainment fodder, I cringe a bit thinking about their impact on folks who would emulate them.
And...they do. Of course they do. And have. Forever. That's why streaking became popular in the 70's (ha ha).
When you have extensively viewed footage of climbers (hero's in the sport, sponsored athletes) who solo hard routes, jump off in wild locations with base rigs, complain about being tooled by the man, then, I think some percentage of the population gets empowered to either follow suit, or, feel justified that they have a kindred soul. Can we blame Ferguson MO on Valley Uprising? I dunno...cause and effect...
I can think of a few climbing fatalities that make me wonder. The gal that died in Indian Creek soloing (Naked and the Dead I dimly recall? Or near there). I'd heard she made a comment, when questioned about soloing, of a high profile gal also soloing in the area...
Popular youtube video of kids jumping and swinging off Corona Arch near Moab? Who thought that was going to end well? Couple of fatalities and a land swap later, and, the BLM has banned that activity there. Cause and effect? I think so.
I had (ok, have still) a poster of Bachar soloing. When I bought my Fires, first thing I did? I soloed a route that at the time wasn't a heck of a lot lower than my lead ability. Was I influenced by the image from the poster, the shoes, a hero? Yeah, maybe a bit. Was it thrilling? Sure. Had I f'd up and been killed, would have any of it come back on the ad? Not sure anyone woulda made that link.
JL, your story about trying to follow Bachar (an incredible piece of writing, by the way)...well...the feelings that you invoke may be a draw to some folks who want to experience the same. Might be a low percentage. But really, its romanticizing that type of behavior methinks. Come what may.
Anyhoo...random and stream of consciousness thoughts about all this...which has always made me wonder...
Thanks.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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May 21, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Psilocyborg said:
Cliffbar has a bland and boring product with a synthetic texture, and Alex and Dean does not represent that image. It can make sense for a company with a bland and boring product to spice up their image by sponsoring someone who is not.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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May 21, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
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I'll admit to reading only the first 2 pages then skipping to the last...
N00b move I know.
In regards to non-n00bs being pressured or encouraged to do dangerous activities or dangerous risks to try to be like someone else...
I personally know a very well regarded climber who got pressured into a recreational simul-rap with a crazy person after swearing (and still swears) that simul-raps are dangerous and should be avoided whenever one can.
90% of my climbing career, and many of my most dangerous climbing experiences were (and are) initiated in an attempt to be more like all the people who are healthier, stronger, better, and just generally cooler than I am. In my life, those that fall behind get left behind. Don't want to get left behind? Show up. Don't fall behind. Don't like it? Get left outside of the club/tribe/whatever.
Everyone can be influenced, encouraged, and pressured. The outcome of that is up to the individual.
Companies aren't individuals and cannot be expected to act like it. Different game, different parameters.
And yes...I'm still having fun trying to be someone else. ;)
2p
cheers
LS
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crankster
Trad climber
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May 21, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
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I don't accept the premise that Clif dropped sponsorship thinking novices could potentially emulate dangerous activities like BASE. By sponsoring athletes who BASE jump, they're putting a stamp of approval on an activity that is one of the most dangerous things a person being can do, especially with the advent of proximity wingsuit descents. They weren't comfortable with that. Sadly, the reasons are becoming tragically apparent.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
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90% of my climbing career, and many of my most dangerous climbing experiences were (and are) initiated in an attempt to be more like all the people who are healthier, stronger, better, and just generally cooler than I am. In my life, those that fall behind get left behind. Don't want to get left behind? Show up. Don't fall behind. Don't like it? Get left outside of the club/tribe/whatever.
This is what I termed up thread as Evolution. We see it everywhere in the animal kingdom. Sadly we still see it today in humans.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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May 21, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
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From that other thread:
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
May 21, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
^^^^
"It almost moves me to tears knowing that I live in a world that I can do these things. No matter what, I want to do this some day..." Matthew Boren, YouTube commenter
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 21, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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Reilly: Does it even take two hands to count the number of companies who have undertaken serious changes based on 'ethics' that are not conflated with preaching to the choir?
If you count social entrepreneurs in the group who attend business schools, then yes. There are more organizations that are starting to show up in the mix. And there is research that indicates that customers are paying attention with their pocketbooks. (See: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121018735490274425); (Also look at the book on Amazon, “Good Company,” or go to http://www.goodcompanyindex.com/ to see that there is empirical evidence that shows that it pays to be a “worthy company.”)
There are more and more young people in my classes (especially the undergrads) who want to do “the right thing,” but organizations are immensely powerful. What is also powerful is having 2.3 cars, 2.3 kids, and a home with a white picket fence around it. (Before they know it, students become one of “them.”)
I fight that insidious influence by demanding students proclaim what their sense of “work ethics” are by the end of the course. They do NOT want to do it. They fight me at every turn. Unfortunately for them, I have the grading pen.
KenM: Your last sentence, tho, doesn't quite address the issue of how the community establishes it's ethics, such as the climbing community. I think it is through discussions like this thread.
You bet, Ken. Agreed.
I’d also add that early history in organizations have powerful and lasting influences on a community’s values and beliefs, especially those of “founders.” Founders cast long shadows.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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May 21, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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Understand this... wingsuits are probably the worst flying devices ever invented... they are not designed to make split second turns and be flown with great accuracy. Their airframe is your body. As we have seen in many instances, the people flying these things have too little time to make corrections when things go wrong. You are flying an aircraft that has been demonstrated to be unsafe under certain conditions. Yet people go out and push these things to limits that they really don't understand and as a result end up dead. Regular aircraft are tested so that their performance envelope can be determined to a high degree... do the BASE jumpers really know the extreme limits of these suits? I don't think so... they learn by trial and error and hopefully get away with... thus pushing the envelope in a wingsuit means flying it beyond its design limits and can only lead to disaster. It is surely a fools errand. That's is why the new guys are not getting killed.. they are very cautions... and why the more experienced flyers are getting killed as they are trying things for which the suits are not designed.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 21, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
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I don't see the real question here as being about emulation, noobs or anything of the sort.
There is a culture in the Valley that Dean and friends were near the center of that Cliff bar decided to pull out of.
This is a culture that goes back to Robbins, Bachar, Croft and later Dean and his modern contemporaries.
How far can I push this?
This is a segment of guys who could only become superstars - to live out their perceived superior potential, to rise to the top of their peer's admiration, to find approval from their father, unconditional love from their mother, WTF-ever - by pushing danger right to the edge of death - and being all cool about it, like it's nothing, like God endowed this individual with special powers, like they transcend space and time - untouchable - safe - don't measure my time and beat me, I'm an artist.
No need to train, compete and get your whole life shot down at the Olympic Trials in one of those traditional sports practiced by "boring" schmucks - everyone can be a superstar in the Valley, you just need to find the right niche - A5, Base, Freesolo, one handed, no handed, 3 in a day handed, in the dark - WTF ever.
It's all becoming a bit much...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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How far can I push this?
I agree with you up to this point. But the rest I whole heartingly DISAGREE.
From Harding till Potter, I think, the sole proprietary motivation has been Adventure! The lure of "the first accent", the lure in A5 as "I must NOT fall", to do what hasn't been done! etc. In these, competition lies within and against one's own self, and the environment. NOT against another person. But because another person hasn't done it yet. Nawwhaimean?
Now when you just race up the Nose to beat someone else's time. That's more in line to your meaning, I think?
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 21, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
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All you kooks having an opinion about why who did or does what is just a fart in the wind my friends.
There is no one blanket reason or answer for anything when it comes to others motivations
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
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^^^ I think if you were to look a little broader, like at all of mankind, and at our cousins in the animal kingdom. Then take a close look. You might discover our motivations are not that much dissimilar..
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
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everyone can be a superstar in the Valley, you just need to find the right niche - A5, Base, Freesolo, one handed, no handed, 3 in a day handed, in the dark - WTF ever.
--
Except not "everyone" can do the things on that laundry list, or can get even close. If you could - would you?
I threw out a few rough ideas and got some great responses. Thanks.
JL
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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May 21, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
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"The Only Blasphemy" is, IMHO, the best written piece that presents the pros and cons of soloing. The attraction is there in the form of Bachar, out being free every day, willing to live with the possible consequences. Long feels the attraction, too, but also feels the doubts and fears, and real danger, that come with a partial commitment.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 21, 2015 - 11:59pm PT
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Along the lines of 'why?'... I'm in the ' we're all adrenaline junkies' camp. I know it's an overused phrase but I mean it in quite a literal manner. That big grin and bright face after a challenging climb really is a drug induced high....... at least that is my suspicion. I'd like to see some blood chemistry studies on the subject. In any case as we've all experienced, like sex and heroin (I hear) its hard to give up once you taste it.
I have a bunch of non-climber friends into high speed motorcycle riding. Accidents are inevitable but their high is similar to climbers' near as I can tell.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 22, 2015 - 06:01am PT
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I think, the sole proprietary motivation has been Adventure! [...] In these, competition lies within and against one's own self, and the environment. NOT against another person.
BS. These guys know their rank in the herd like 2 400M sprinter comparing milliseconds.
The whole "adventure" thing only serves to insulate and obscure these guys from having to endure genuine competition - an arena where you LOSE, MOST of the time. This is a class of guys whose egos couldn't handle such a thing, they're already outcasts from the real world.
But because another person hasn't done it yet.
Getting warmer. Even better if nobody will ever have the balls to repeat the "adventure" - thus untouchable, the holy grail of all competitive mankind.
Except not "everyone" can do the things on that laundry list, or can get even close.
When you pull out the risk, it turns out quite a few can and do. Easiest example to cite is to look at Honald's actual climbing ability relative to the masses.
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tripmind
Sport climber
San Diego
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May 22, 2015 - 06:04am PT
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In the past year or so there have been a series of videos put out by EpicTV (dare i reference this here), of very precise and risky wingsuit flights, most of which involve the wingsuiters flying under large structures.
In the first episode they illegally jump out of a cesna and fly under the arm of a large jesus statue in Rio de Janeiro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcbpuG5dZcA
I think the important bit here is that these flights represent the next evolution of wingsuiting. I'm sure someone that takes wingsuiting as seriously as Potter did, was informed of these feats, and maybe that could have been a motivation for his goal to try to clear the Notch in Yosemite, he wasn't trying to emulate someone else, but instead do something incredible before some guy with a redbull sponsorship jumps out of a helicopter and clears it.
I don't know Dean, but I have learned so much about him so quickly, and one of the most inspiring bits to me is how much he gives just to be able to do the things he wanted to on a daily basis.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 22, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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Easiest example to cite is to look at Honald's actual climbing ability relative to the masses.
Not sure if you mean Honnold, but if you do, from what I know, he's sport climbed 5.14, climbed hard 5.13 cracks (placing gear) and recently won the Piolet de Oro for the traverse of the Fitz Roy massif. The masses where I'm from are not climbing quite that hard yet. On the other hand, I see you're from "The Internet" and I've heard the masses from there climb pretty hard.
This is a class of guys whose egos couldn't handle such a thing, they're already outcasts from the real world.
So some of the local kids from here were bouldering down south and guess who showed up? Turns out Honnold is humble and shy and asked politely if he could boulder with the group. Some of these local kids boulder pretty hard (occasional V12s), but they all shared beta and crash pads and had a blast climbing together. This doesn't sound like the person you're describing, to me.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 22, 2015 - 06:53am PT
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He recently did the Gullich "Punks" route. What's that rated these days? Not "cutting edge" sport, but certainly harder than "the masses" are climbing. And, well. like I said, where I'm from "the masses" are not climbing hard 13 cracks or winning the Piolet de Oro.
Obviously Honnold is a media doll because he free solos. The media is fascinated with free soloing. And he has an incredible capacity at that particular skill. So, what about it?
Opps, I'm answering a post that's been deleted!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 22, 2015 - 06:54am PT
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The reason Honnald is an easy example to cite is that he himself has stated openly that his climbing ability isn't outstanding, and that he knows his fame comes from the risks he takes.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 22, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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Largo - thanks for the thread.
No doubt these guys were special. The question IMHO is why they do it. For me, the answer is very much tied to both the environment of us and clif bar and their peers and themselves glorifying facing the danger of extreme sports combined with their natural inclination to seek the thrill of doing it. Sure, they were exceptionally skilled at facing that danger with equanimity. And that cocktail led to their death.
The question for us becomes is that a skill or aptitude that we want to glorify for ourselves and others? For me, I need to stay alive. The glory of facing that danger and having it lead to my death is just not that glorious.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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May 22, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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Great thread John. Here's some raw data for your initial query.
When I was 11 years old, 30 minutes after an episode of THE FALL GUY, I went outside, strung 30 feet of clothesline horizontally between two trees, four feet off the ground, at the far end of a cliff behind our home. I then got on my blue and gold Huffy and pedaled toward the cliff's edge like an escaped con fleeing the fuzz. With images of me grabbing the line and ghost sailing my bike across the ravine I approached the safety line at full downhill 11 year old terminal velocity. I remember little after that moment other than waking up in my living room with my mom beside me and an ice cold compress under my chin cooling a 2nd degree rope burn around my neck. I had misjudged the safety line height and caught it with my neck, arms straight in the air like a victor. I spent three weeks at school with a nasty black and red rope burn from ear to ear under my chin and around my neck, braving insults and inquiries from teachers about "that boy who tried to hang himself." Deep down I was consoled only by the fact that Colt Seavers would have been proud. True story. No lie.
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 09:16am PT
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The modern nihilistic consciousness thru poor fund of knowledge that predominates today bewilders the common persons outlook on death.
I read all the posts of this event and only one person said they will be back.
Only one rare person,
The rest is so nihilistic and drowns in zero .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 22, 2015 - 09:17am PT
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WHOA!! Thats pretty funny since it turned out ok... or did it? Could explain a lot about you micronut ... :)
Got me thinking though.. how many of us who grew up at the right time tried to copy Evil Kneivel and managed a painful result or several?
Raising my hand...Most of the kids I knew too.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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May 22, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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Of course daredevil stunts bring emulators. Is that even in question? Thanks to Johnny Knoxville, it even has a name. The Jackass Effect. YouTube is full of dumb kids setting themselves on fire, jumping off their parent's roof, etc.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 22, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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Ahhh but did we really need Johnny Knoxville or Evil Kneivel to do dumbass crap like that? Seemed to me Johnny was just doing stuff we did as kids but taking it to a bigger level. For that matter not always a bigger level.. ahh the stupid stuff kids do.
That settles it in my mind .. young men do stupid stuff. Some grow out of it..sorta.
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c wilmot
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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It could be argued that thinking you will come back in some form is narcissistic and even selfish. Honestly that is a nice notion- but much in the same sense of rational as going to a "heaven." If it comforts some to think in such a manner- great.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 22, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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What's telling if not disappointing about this thread is how little evolutionary perspective there is.
From that perspective you're not in charge, nature is. Young males do what they do - they take risks, they distinguish themselves, they explore and disburse, they raise a ruckus - because it is the evolutionarily productive thing to do. It's a component in a grand balancing act that keeps our species gene pool healthy. It's nature's way of keeping us robust, of keeping our evolutionary trajectory robust.
There's also a gender component. We see it in risk taking in the mts. We see it in ISIS fighters. We see it in our greatest grand schemes that (attempt to) change the world (culture). Study the distribution bell curves of males and females; the male curves are way more spread out in terms of variables that relate to risk taking, exploration, expendibility, death.
Without the evolutionary perspective though, none of this makes sense.
ref: Is There Anything Good about Men? Roy Baumeister
"Death has to win only once, but life has to win everyday."
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 22, 2015 - 10:16am PT
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^^^^ Your the only thing disappointing about this thread Fruitless!
For a science guy, you don't seem to be keepin up very well?
We're 49% nature and 51% nurture. Didn't you know? Science just proved it. No room for free will I guess. Man I love science! :-)
This is only a half truth tho. Oviously if humans are more of a product of the Environment than that of Bioligy. Free Will IS substantiated.
vvvvv Exhibit #2. What does that have to do with the OP? We all know animals and evolution threw evilness in our laps. Murder, deceit, Fornication, gossip, etc. But today with the help thru science we can understand and with the use of our Environmental FreeWill we can combat these natural animalistic genetic urges. First order is to forgive the monkeys, for they know not what they do. Then dissolve the evilness with goodness : )
Have a nice day!
vvvvvvv
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 22, 2015 - 10:51am PT
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Sorry wbraun - if my fund of knowledge included a certainty that I'd be back in time to pick up my daughter from school, I might have a different perspective on death :-) My fund of knowledge does include being a parent though. A lot of people's fund includes that.
Blueblockr - kind of tongue in cheek - just love the math and certainty of science - don't really think those numbers mean a whole lot or really inform us on free will. Yes I believe that we're a product of both nature and nurture with or without that study.
Our environment - supertopo - we're having this conversation in an environment that selects for, and that we selected for, our inclinations towards facing the danger of the extreme sport of rock climbing. For some of us it's more extreme than others. Regardless, those other wankers who exist outside this environment - they have their inclinations and affecting and affected environment too, and it's kind of different than ours.
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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May 22, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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The glory of facing that danger and having it lead to my death is just not that glorious If the danger someone is facing by doing something they love results in their death, then I can't think of a more "glorious" way to die, other than while saving someone's life. I suppose that would be the ultimate. But I have to agree that life becomes meaningless when one throws it away foolishly and lives selfishly.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 22, 2015 - 11:11am PT
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Lots of perspectives here, and also a number of issues conflated. In particular,
1. The existential "rightness" or "wrongness" of high-risk activities. Is there something intrinsically "unholy" about embracing such pursuits?
2. The effects high-risk activities may have on others when these activities are actively popularized by the media. (The original issue raised by Largo.) Does the dissemination and celebration of high-risk pursuits lure "innocents" to try these pursuits? (And, by implication, do the participants and/or the purveyors have any responsibility for the what happens?)
3. The more individual effects of social pressure and group dynamics in subcultures that value high-risk activities (as described by, for instance, Lady Scarlet.) Can friends or people in groups you aspire to belong to get you to do things that are beyond your best judgement?
Some comments on these.
1. I think trad climbers are on shaky ground when they essentially declare that another climber has stepped over the risk line. Risk, or perhaps I should say that effective performance in the presence of risk, is a critical ingredient of trad climbing. Without it, you have sport climbing, whose essential goals are different. This is why folks get the panties in a twist when someone bolts a run-out trad section—risk that was an essential part of the endeavor was eliminated. And given that all trad climbers not simply accept, but in fact embrace risk as one of the defining components of what they do, it is, if I may say so, unseemly to proclaim that the risks you have chosen are ok but the risks someone else has chosen are not—unless one can argue that the person taking those “unjustifiable” risks is doing so in ignorance of what the real stakes are (i.e. are just being stupid, the Darwin award category).
2. Although data may be lacking, I think there is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence, some of it shared in this thread, that young people may try to emulate activities they see in the media without any of the skills and experience required and without any real appreciation f the stakes. I think it is almost inevitable that some kid will see a piece on Honnold and will try to solo a cliff (or climb a building) somewhere. But free-soloing is in some ways a special case, because you don’t need anything to try it yourself: just walk up to a rock and start climbing. Wingsuit base jumping is at the other end of that spectrum; you need all kinds of gear and the ability to access appropriate locales. Even clueless teenagers aren’t likely to put on a batman cape after school and jump off the town water tower.
3. In some ways, at least for the climbing community internally, the role of group and individual social pressures in pushing people to override their the gut judgements is the most complicated of these concerns. Accident reports are full of commentary about how someone thought things were getting out of hand but said nothing. I’d guess that anyone who has climbed for a while has at some time allowed themselves to be talked into something they really didn’t think was a good idea. One of the things that makes good partnerships is a common underlying view of what risks to take.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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May 22, 2015 - 11:18am PT
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Per the recent BASE jumping deaths in Yosemite Valley, one paper wrote:
"Clif Bar’s decision (to withdraw sponsorship from Potter, Honnold, etc.) was a controversial one that came under heavy critique by the climbing community, who noted that Potter and the other dropped athletes were some of the most incredible and innovative athletes on the planet, the people who take sports to new places and offer a glimpse into what is possible. Others expressed support for the idea that a company shouldn’t be promoting activities – especially in an age of YouTube and viral videos, where young people might seek to emulate and copy the stunts they see their heroes doing – and which have such a high risk of death."
The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared that unwitting people, or at any rate, folks not up to the challenge, might look at what Potter and Honnold et al are doing (or were doing) and would be encouraged to try it themselves and die terribly in the process.
For this to be a viable theory there must be some evidence that somewhere, at some time - either in BASE, highlining or free soloing - people have tried to ape the feats of their heros and have died in the process.
What are the examples of this happening in the three disciplines just mentioned? I am not asking for a speculative argument, however well reasoned, but rather for concrete evidence to validate the notion that anyone has actually died trying to be someone they were not or from trying something they would not otherwise have tried without seeing the Honnold vids and so forth.
JL
One season, 1980s here in Boulder, me and my friends, experienced, journeyman risk-takers all, hung out with a really inexperienced guy (or rather, he made sure to hang with us), who climbed unsafely, had no self-awareness, no agility, did not seem to have a curiosity about himself and his surroundings; did not appear to be acquiring the climbing-oriented common sense one develops in the vertical world.
He'd learned the basics, bought a rack of gear and felt that was it, now he was no different to the top climbers and mountaineers.
He told us he wanted to go to the Alps. We had all climbed with him, told him, clearly and repeatedly, he'd die there, he was too inexperienced, he needed a lot more time to learn. But he had his dream, his fixation. He felt just as entitled to survive and even thrive in hazardous situations as we did, or his mountaineering heroes did. He got a job selling Ski-Americards, outside McGuckins, our local hardware store. Great sales person, for sure, he could talk the talk. That season, he sold more than any other Ski-Americard salesperson in Colorado.
With his earnings and big bonus, he went to Denali, promptly died. Crevasse or avalanche, don't recall which.
He, out of all the climbers I've known, comes the closest to a person who "tried to ape the feats of [his] heros and ... died in the process" because he sure was way out of his depth, had been told this, repeatedly, refused to, or was unable to learn and acquire the skills he needed. Later, his mother I recall wrote a letter to Climbing, railing against the climbers who had "encouraged" him. She blamed the climbing community.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 22, 2015 - 11:39am PT
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Rgold,^^^^ Very Good!
I believe keeping these "campfire" conversations burning with ALL participants wether positive or negative provides growth in the village. The crux is keeping an open mind..
Rbord, yea well I stole that from up thread. I actually think the numbers for evolutional metamorphosis is around 80% environ interaction, and 20% genetic. But I'm allowing an extra large allotment to the power of Will!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 22, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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Stevee kind of agree. Not arguing that people shouldn't follow their bliss, more that we can become aware of why our bliss is our bliss, and how we affect that for each other. For me, the glory of facing the danger of extreme sports beats the glory of jihad. Different environments promote different glories.
Given his statement that his number one goal was to not f*#k up and die, I'm not sure that he died following his glory :-( Sometimes we're led, by our inclinations and environment, to knowledge that isn't true, like that I can continue to face these dangers without dying. What are we going to do? As a human we believe that what we believe is true, regardless of the reasons we believe it, or whether or not it's true. That's just how we work, IMHO.
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SeaClimb
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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Chugach said:
//
**"Largo,
I originally wrote a more benign post but I'm back after a few minutes of reflection. I have great respect for you but think you're trying to ease your conscience with a delicate argument. YOU have lured LOTS of people into climbing, including me. When I soloed it wasnt because it made sense it's because my climbing hero's did and said it was awesome and I wanted to experience climbing to the fullest so I took my hero's advice. Most climber bio's start with some story about learning on Mom's clothes line or some ill-informed foray like Dean Potters solos of local cliff. How many articles have you written that follow either the heroic overcoming of odds or the bumbling guy who got lucky and survived or toughing it out leads to success storyline?**
Can i draw I direct link from your writing to someone's death - no. Does that relieve you or some responsibility - no. The entire climbing community is built on luring noobs in over their heads, or even experienced climbers to keep pushing to limits. We all know that and we participate in it. The magazines and books are not filled with motherly advice but with a common theme of pushing it. I pushed it (a little) and I lived. If I had died it would have been pursuing a directly inspired activity.
Let's be clear, I am not assigning blame, I am assigning the awareness of responsibility.
Ok, let's depersonalize it a little and look at entrepreneurship. Go to the bookstore, hundreds of books and dozens of magazines about how awesome entrepreneurship is with the familiar storyline of climbing; bootstrapping it, in over your head, perseverance, success. But people get wiped out. They bet big, lose their business, wreck their marriage, health, etc. It's absolutely tragic but no one takes responsibility for the culture of luring people onward. We just say; oh that was an outlier, focus on the Steve Jobs story again. (Don't worry about Bachar, pay attention to Dean. Oh, I mean pay attention to Alex - see it's not that dangerous, look at Alex go. Go Alex go). Bachar is gone and his lessons dont influence young climbers. A year from now the same with Dean and Alex will still be getting all the press and youtubes.
The forward arc of human development is people taking risks and pushing limits. I get that. I'm an climber and entrepreneur and it's in my DNA to take risks and like a moth to a flame I was inspired by your stories and Dean's videos. Hell, even at the age of 48 I totally want to wingsuit because I've been drooling over the videos. That would have never happened before the age of youtube/gopro.
But just because I'm part of the problem doesn't absolve me of the responsibility of my words. If I spent a lot of time showboating or luring people into my activities I would have to take some responsibility for their outcomes. Based on all that, I think Cliff Bar got it right and the climbing culture has gotten it wrong."
//
I have three children that all climb extensively. We discuss honnold, potter, bachar, etc. quite a bit. I have gotten the message across (I hope and believe I have) that climbing has some risks, but there are also steps to minimize and mitigate those risks. Soloing is the exact opposite approach to this.
I use Bachar as the perfect example. There were two interviews of him separated by maybe 15 years. In the first interview, he stated that he felt like he had literally a one-in-a-million chance of falling while soloing, that he was that in control. In the second interview (substantially later), he surmised that he had probably climbed well over a million vertical feet (probably an exaggeration, maybe not?). Well, I guess his odds were about right. I have also pointed out to them, that hell, walking on a sidewalk is piss easy, but dammit, i have tripped a couple of times in my life.
In essence, what i'm getting at is that I agree with John Long that visible leading climbers/BASE'ers/etc do play pivotal roles in influencing kids' actions, but maybe not the way he was intending.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 22, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
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Yesterday. Utah free solo fatality. Interesting that the comments to the article mention DP and AH...
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=34750011
NORTH LOGAN — A man who died after falling around 80 feet while rock climbing has been identified.
Cache County Search and Rescue and the Logan Fire Department responded to the accident in Green Canyon around 3 p.m. Thursday, according to the Cache County Sheriff’s Office. Matthew Del Gross, 23, fell between 50-100 feet while rock climbing and sustained a severe head injury, the sheriff’s office said.
Gross had been climbing with three others, one of whom called 911. He was pronounced dead at the scene by emergency responders.
Search and rescue crews secured Gross on the side of the mountain, but were called off the scene due to the lightning strikes in the area, the sheriff’s office said. They later returned when the weather calmed down and his body was transported off the mountain around 5:30 p.m.
Cache County Chief Sheriff's Deputy Matt Bilodeau said the area where Del Gross was climbing was not a sheer cliff, but rather rose at an angle. He did not believe the trio was using ropes or rock climbing gear. Bilodeau did not immediately know Friday how high up the mountain Del Gross was when he fell.
Gross was from Maryland and had been attending Utah State University, officials said. His body was taken to the medical examiner’s office in Salt Lake City where the cause of death will be determined.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 22, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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Another case where the media doesn't know diddly.
He was climbing unroped so that made him a "free climber".
Of course people emulate others and get in over their heads. Is Darwinism a bad thing?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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May 22, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
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Is Darwinism a bad thing?
My thinking exactly
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 22, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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he had literally a one-in-a-million chance of falling ..
He had climbed .. a million vertical feet ..
His odds were just about right
This is what I love so much about our human mathematical/logical belief formation processes. One in a million what? In retrospect, do we believe he was just about right because he meant one in a million feet? Or was it really one in a million meters, and really his belief (and ours) was wrong and off by a factor of 3? If only we believed in the metric system maybe he wouldn't have fallen :-(
Or that the expected behavior of a random variable that comes up dead one in a million times is that it will come up dead on the millionth time, and that this one observation is adequate to confirm our hypothesis of the probability?
For myself, I think all of our beliefs work that illogically wacky human way. I don't think that our belief formation processes are quite as rational as we believe they are.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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May 22, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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Do you wonder why robots aren't used to ventilate building fires, rather than sending firefighters up onto the roof to do it?
Well, it's probably too expensive, I suppose.
When the roof collapses it doesn't even help much if they [the firefighters] are roped up.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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May 22, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
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Dare I raise the third rail ? I spoke of this only once before and was filleted
The old boys network that does not exist
Call me Ron Anderson
But one hyphenated word and one word
SAND - BAG
&
KARMA
Where's Pete's Friday night thread?
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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May 22, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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Do people emulate the risky behavior they see displayed by others? Displayed "in person?" or via youtube? or the movies?
Big duh. Monkey see; monkey do.
Decades ago I read a pre-sentence report about a teenager who went amuck through the streets of Mesa, Arizona. His inspiration? The absurdly over-the- top car driving scenes of our heroes in the movie The Blues Brothers.
And rgold wrote: " Even clueless teenagers aren’t likely to put on a batman cape after school and jump off the town water tower."
To the contrary, I knew a kid in my high school who decided he could fly so decided to just jump off a building - no parachute, no wingsuit, no nothing He was on LSD.
In the original post, Largo asked: "for concrete evidence to validate the notion that anyone has actually died trying to be someone they were not or from trying something they would not otherwise have tried without seeing the Honnold vids and so forth"
Do my examples supply the type of proof Largo sought (though outside of the climbing context)?
I assert it is simply impossible to underestimate human stupidity, gullibility or the tendency to emulate the behavior of others - no matter whether the behavior is noble or ignoble, stupid or enlightened, absurd or rational. Monkey see; monkey do.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 22, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
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Seaclimb: The forward arc of human development is people taking risks and pushing limits. I get that.
I don't. I used to believe that, and I used to live that to some minor extent, but I don't believe that now. That is a ethnocentric view. I also question whether you've met anyone outside of your culture, micro or macro.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 22, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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And rgold wrote: " Even clueless teenagers aren’t likely to put on a batman cape after school and jump off the town water tower."
To the contrary, I knew a kid in my high school who decided he could fly so decided to just jump off a building - no parachute, no wingsuit, no nothing He was on LSD.
I was addressing the thread topic of people in their normal state of mind possibly emulating what they see in the media. The case of a kid on LSD doesn't seem relevant. Even if it was, the example of an LSD jumper doesn't change the "aren't likely" proviso in my comment.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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May 22, 2015 - 09:12pm PT
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rgold (Or anyone else):
What sayeth to my assertion:
"it is simply impossible to underestimate human stupidity, gullibility or the tendency to emulate the behavior of others"
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 22, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
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Without personal responsibility society is doomed
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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May 22, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
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I have great respect for you but think you're trying to ease your conscience with a delicate argument. 1975 Began his (Bachar's) solo climbing career with an ascent of Double Cross (5.8) at Joshua Tree National Monument. John Long was about to solo the route when Bachar walked by. Long told John to solo it with him but John was “kinda sketched about the idea." Long then asked the hypothetical question: “If you top-rope this route a hundred times, how many times will you fall off?” The answer, of course, was zero to Bachar, so he soloed it behind Long, and then started soloing lots of climbs.
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Guernica
climber
dark places
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May 23, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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Here's something specific, from this link in one of the other threads:
http://m.sfgate.com/living/mensjournal/article/The-Last-Flight-of-Dean-Potter-6281144.php
The last sentence is the germane one:
'Before taking up BASE jumping, Potter set a series of solo speed-climbing records on the 2,500-foot face of Half Dome and the 3,000-foot face of El Capitan by ascending long stretches without a rope, using a length of cord only long enough to get through especially difficult sections.
"It was the raddest thing I had ever seen," says climber Alex Honnold. "It was deeply formative when I was younger."'
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 23, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
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Bored in an airport yesterday I picked up the current edition of Sci, American. The cover story caught my eye.
Behind a pay-wall and probably not worth the money, but the short is this kind of behavior is a direct process of normal adolescent brain development and probably in the grand scheme of things contributes to the survival of us collectively.
Abstract,
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-teen-brain-perils-and-promise/
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 23, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
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TWP I think underestimate is the wrong word. Or maybe underestimate is right in that we over overestimate our own ability to undersrand the intelligence of the systems and processes that create our beliefs, and instead assume that our "rational" perspective is the ultimate judge of those beliefs, when I think that really there's a much larger rational system that produces our beliefs, but we just don't understand the methods and goals of the intelligence of those systems. The above post refeences some of the intelligence of our unintelligence.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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May 23, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
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I don't have much doubt that people emulate others. My very first trip to Stoney Point was a case in point. I don't know how I found out about Stoney exactly - it had to be one of the Sierra Club Schedule books I remember my Mother finding for me. My Mother took me out there one afternoon and just dropped me off. There was nobody there that I can remember except that there was a climber climbing up the far left-hand main crack system on the main face - and he was unroped. Not knowing any better I promptly found my way up to it and climbed it myself - unroped! Thinking back now, even before that we only used the ropes to rappel and not to climb, but this was my longest climb so far.
I started climbing with a friend out in the very far west end of the San Fernando Valley ( not the usual spots and before discovering the Stoney culture around 1967) and we would climb up things and find horns of rock we could put our ropes around and lower down from. I think my main inspiration at the time was that Spencer Tracy movie 'The Mountain'. We went to the hardware store and bought large nails and big washers and about 1/2" white nylon rope. I can't remember the type of hammer I may have had - something from the tool shed no doubt. The washers I figured I could pound into horizontal cracks to stand on. I never really used those much - or the nails! After discovering Stoney we would even rappel off of Rock 1 by hooking our rope around that squared off encyclopedia sized bollard-like flake near the top. Finally I took the Sierra Club RCS class in 1968.
It's a 'Monkey See - Monkey Do' world.....no doubt about it. Even if somebody sees a base-jump movie, and they are not particularly moved to do that, they may be moved to finally go jump that freight train they've been thinking about!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 23, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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^^^ Great story:)
Precisely forwards my point. Reason might get us to the crag, with a full rack, rope, and a picnic basket. And reason may keep us within our jurisdiction of ability for which rte we choose to be safe, and fearless. But if we're to step into the unknown, and push beyond our perceived level of ability. We must grab onto what Base104 calls "willful ignorance" and leave at the base facts like, "this rte is 2 number grades above anything i've done before" or, "if i climb without a rope, one mistake i die".
Does Reason even exist inside our actual experience? Does it have ANYTHING to do with movement/motion at all?
i gotta believe it's "willful Will" that gets us to the top of the Mountain, and to one day walk on Mars.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 24, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
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Blueblockr I think that's on the right track, or at least another valid track from what we believe is the omnisicience/omnipotence of our rational belief creation processes.
As zbrown (maybe :-) said, it's too expensive for us to gather all of the information and exhaustively compute the "correct" result. That's not what we do. Instead, our beliefs support us acting in a heuristic manner - not in an exhaustive rational computational manner. When a fly ball is hit to us in left field, we don't exhaustively compute the speed and trajectory and our responding vector to catch the ball and then implement that vector. We just start running in the right direction, and then change speed and direction based on our next observation.
That's the style of behavior that our belief creation processes support. We succeed or fail by acting. We also gain more information by acting. Are we going to catch the ball or come up a little short? We don't necessarily know when we start running, and sometimes we can only learn it by hitting the ground.
The way our beliefs work to our advantage is that they inspire and support our behaviors. We have a heuristic method of behaving by bootstrapping our behaviors by just making up a belief using whatever information happens to be available (praise Jesus!) and then using all kinds of wacky belief processes to support our heuristic. Like the probability of bachar falling example. We believe in the truth of our own beliefs, and seek to confirm them however we can. So we make up a belief that the risk is one in a million, then we pull out a random million feet measure, then misuse an understanding of random variables to confirm our belief that our belief was true. Wow look at that self - my beliefs are always true - I really do understand this reality stuff! Let's jump ...
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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May 24, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
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The young do not know enough to be prudent, therefore they attempt the impossible - and acheive it, generation after generation.
Pearl S. Buck
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
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One poster mentioned that it is often the experienced middle aged guy who kills himself in a high risk sport, Bachar being a classic example. It is similar to the syndrome that makes an older boxer believe that he can make a "come back."
As we age, the mind still remembers, and has the patterns of what we could do in our physical prime. There is then a disconnect between what we believe we can do, and what our body actually does. This creates a false sense of security and a greater degree of risk. In that sense, experience does not lead to a higher degree of safety.
It is, in a way similar to an in experienced youth emulating his "hero", only in this instance the older guy is emulating his "hero" i.e. his younger self.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 24, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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If you have had considerable success it's hard to back down as middle age approaches. Layton Kor used to say that one should know one's limitations. Easier said than done as one continues to experiment in this regard.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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May 25, 2015 - 06:56am PT
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The other day I played soccer for the first time in 30??? 40??? years. Man, talk about a reality check! My current self is not up to imitating my past self. I can run pretty well on trails, but all that starting, stopping and acceleration is murder. My ankles were not happy afterwards.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 26, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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Regarding the original post:
It all started for me when I came across a copy of The White Spider in the library in my little Oklahoma small town at the impressionable age of 14. That book is about the history of attempts on the North Face of the Eiger both prior to the first ascent, when it seemed to kill anyone who even went up on that thing. It all seemed so glorious, and very different from normal sports. I started climbing as soon as I could filch a rope from someone's garage and got a copy of Basic Rockcraft. Many of my friends have similar stories.
I must have read it 10 times before I returned it. All these guys trying to do what seemed impossible, and dying like flies in the process. One of my biggest regrets is never having done it. I had one good chance at it ten years later, in top form and all, but the weather had other ideas. Never went back to Chamonix, which isn't that far from the Eiger.
People dying never slowed me down with climbing. Some deaths can be avoided. Screwups with gear and that kind of stuff. Some deaths can't be avoided, such as rock or serac fall, and all you can do is climb fast to try to minimize it.
I can say without qualification that up until my early 30's, death seemed like something that would happen to other guys, and even then, if your number is up, it is up, and I would solo right at my top ability.
No way could I think that way now. I'm old and conditioned by society.
As a youth, I couldn't care less about risk, more or less. I suppose that is why 19 year olds make the best soldiers. Sure, death is there. Somehow it seems like it will happen to the other guy, and like the book The Right Stuff, they died because they screwed up. Which of course I would never do, or rather believed it fully until I became a father.
Becoming a father totally changed my view of risk. I wanted to BE a father, and that involved living. I gave up climbing and BASE by the time my son was two.
What I'm trying to say is that young people don't view death like the old. To them it is an abstract thing, and it won't happen to you. Not one time did I think that I was going to get hurt on any BASE jump. Luckily, I didn't get hurt soloing or BASE jumping, but they really lost appeal when I became responsible for someone else.
Somebody mentioned Dean and Steph Davis. They divorced quite a while back. She married Mario Richard, a super skilled paraglider pilot and BASE jumper. He was killed not too long ago on a wingsuit jump. I think that she still jumps, but I bet she has a story to tell.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 26, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
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I think that she still jumps, but I bet she has a story to tell. She does indeed and she tells it with stunning poise and clarity:
"Choosing to Fly" - Steph Davis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR9dbjubfuU
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 26, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
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An important factor among many skilled adventurers is the need to define what is possible on individual terms and not to live under the standards of the established experts.
Emulation is a first step towards bigger adventures...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 27, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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Getting to the top is optional, getting back down is obligatory.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 27, 2015 - 10:20am PT
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Some deaths can't be avoided.
Thanks for your post. Probably very similar to many of our experiences. But not sure I agree. Isn't that exactly why you stopped climbing and BASE when you became a dad - to avoid those kinds of deaths? Nicely done!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 27, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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Getting whacked really never occurred to me until much later. I did a stupid thing on an antenna jump, using a fast skydiving canopy. I opened off heading and flew through the wires. I managed to miss hitting one, barely, but when I hit the ground I felt fear for probably the first time in my life.
I'm talking about real fear, and I wouldn't have felt it if I didn't have a 2 year old at home to raise.
Before that, I would do anything. After that I only skydived from planes. I eventually gave that up because it was too expensive, but I made 1300 jumps.
It boggles my mind how modern BASE jumpers can regularly make a thousand BASE jumps. Obviously the gear is much better. Part of it is kind of like climbing. You read, hear, or know about somebody who did something and they got whacked. You simply refine your systems, be it climbing, sailing, or skateboarding. It isn't rocket science.
To make it to a thousand you must be doing it damn near every day, and Dean had just been in Europe where he did 200 flights, from what I have heard. I'm pretty sure that he had made it to 1000.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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May 27, 2015 - 10:57am PT
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Serge Couttet, ex Chamonix guide told me once, "the mountain will always be there".
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Hey I gathered another data point yesterday that I hope is at least tangentially on topic :-)
My son and I were hiking up Yosemite Falls trail and were just getting to the first overlook with the railing on the trail below the base of the upper falls. I heard someone say "hey there!" I didn't really see anyone nearby so thought "whatever". Then they said "how's your hike going?" Again, no-one nearby, thought maybe it was someone trying to attract my attention from a perch in a tree or something, so didn't even bother to look around for them - I was enjoying my own experience. Then I heard them laugh. We arrived at the overlook 30 seconds later and there was a hang glider making a turn back towards our location. He turned straight back towards us standing at the top of the cliff, and then as he was heading towards us, looked at us, laughed again, and then made a turn and banked back away from the cliff maybe 50 feet or so in front of us.
Now I don't really know what he was thinking - at present my external remote neural sensing capabilities are limited to the human sensor I have in my brain - but my sense of the interaction was that he was actively soliciting our participation in his experience. He purposefully called out to us so that we would notice him, and maybe partly because he thought we would enjoy it (ie to affect our experience) then he banked his hang glider in towards the cliff directly at us, then banked away. Maybe he would have done that even if we weren't there, but there definitely seemed to be a "look ma no hands" quality to his behavior. Of course if he hadn't successfully made the turn away from the cliff he would have crashed into it and fallen to his extreme disadvantage. It didn't seem like he was doing it in a zen meditative style solely for the glory of facing down the arbitrary risk of his extreme sport. Given that he repeatedly solicited our attention, despite our display of ambivalence, it seemed like we and our presence were affecting his neural processing and decisions and behaviors.
It looked like fun. We watched him soar out over the valley and land in the meadow. My son said that he hoped that he would be brave enough to do that some day. I told him that I hoped that he would be brave enough too, but not feel like he needed to do it. But I think that we're more than just our individual selves, and whether or not he needs to do it will depend a lot on the rest of us and our interactions with each other.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jul 30, 2018 - 02:44pm PT
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, . , . , . , . ,so much of what we love to do has no point.
Climbing is not all fun, for much of the time it is about finding a balance; relative to the suffering.
We just love to do it, & so pursue climbing as long and robustly as we can . . .
deleted it.
most of it was incoherent anyway.
Edit:
No Fear I think?
My self-deprecating bullsh#t?, well, I don't know what to call it?
Don't know what to call it? No, thats isn't right either.
While it would seem to many, given i'm so so stiff & wide, lurching, no vertical ballet, would be to my embarrassment.
& stupid/pointless to most.
I am having fun, it is fun.
The stupid risk is a part of this, when you add the cord the thing changes,
& yes, I do gnow better.
still as I said I'm in love with climbing & it has loved me back.
A mans' gotta gnow his limitations[Click to View YouTube Video] um,stupid ? yup ! so; kinda . . . .
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 31, 2018 - 10:40am PT
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John Long's own essay about free soloing in J-Tree has an element of cavalier bravado. Good times but also contributes to the mythology and marketing.
I've been watching each generation competing to outdo the reigning extreme sport stars and observing the collateral damage long enough to be convinced that marketing hype and self aggrandizement have contributed to countless spinal injuries and deaths.
Climbing is better balanced when it retains it's Semper Farcisimus.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jul 31, 2018 - 11:13am PT
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For this to be a viable theory there must be some evidence that somewhere, at some time - either in BASE, highlining or free soloing - people have tried to ape the feats of their heros and have died in the process.
Here's a more gentle version... with just roped rock climbing albeit in situations of questionable safety.
As a more impressionable youngster, John Long's hilarious stories of grim situations were definitely a factor in motivating me to push myself closer to harm's way in pursuit of living gloriously on the edge. Of course I had my own demons and passions and tendencies to push the envelope in my own way relative to my capabilities and training/experience, but reading the stories that John wrote had a way of normalizing what I might have otherwise tried to curtail in my personality. It was like discovering a tribe that embraced and celebrated that part of me that other people around me feared and discouraged or at least coped with through nervous laughter.
One piece that I didn't internalize as a youngster, was just how much time the folks in the stories I admired actually spent on the rocks, building the strength and endurance and skills and perceptions/reactions that altered the equation of real risk. As a part-time wannabe, I was comparing myself to folks in these situations when I was completely unrealistic and ignorant about the differences in their conditioning and capabilities versus my own. So perhaps, the folks sharing these hilarious stories might in retrospect find a way to communicate just how wide is the gap between the heroes of the stories and the average Joe or even an exceptional Joe heading out for a weekend on the rocks.
So consider me one light-weight anecdote for you John. I think the effect of glamorizing dangerous pursuits does shift the needle in a direction that will lead more people to die doing stupid stuff. But it's just a part of the equation. I don't think that sharing crazy/stupid or calculatedly expert adventures should be curtailed, but the real capabilities of the people in these situations should be emphasized when they are exceptional. That, combined with parental training and feedback from friends to help with perspective and balance... should be enough to take precautions that manage risk. But in the end, as adults we must accept the consequences of decisions we make about how to live our lives. The more we want to get out of life, the more effort we have to put in and the more we have to have at risk. And it doesn't always work out the way we hope.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 31, 2018 - 01:06pm PT
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John Long's classic piece on almost blowing it in JT by missing that sequence when he was with Bachar, that made me not want to free solo!!
So it can go both ways. Alex Honnold doesn't have a normal fear mechanism in his brain, but is sounds like John Long does.
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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Jul 31, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
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The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared that unwitting people, or at any rate, folks not up to the challenge, might look at what Potter and Honnold et al are doing (or were doing) and would be encouraged to try it themselves and die terribly in the process.
Zero doubt in my mind that it happens, and have seen it in aviation. The problem is when “I do this because I am a master” becomes “I am a master because I do this”, which are not the same statements.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jul 31, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
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nafod, that is a nice way to put it
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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TRUE
When I was 5 or 6 years old I decided is Mary Poppins could fly down using an umbrella, I would float down hanging under a plastic bag. So I jumped off a 2nd floor porch holding a plastic bag over my head. Fortunately the house was a split level. And I was totally disappointed that I hit the ground hard.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Denver CO
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Clif Bar did the right thing. It's sad to see such talented young people being encouraged to risk their lives for cool photo ops. If people are making money off it, its gross.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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There is very little original thought and behavior, whatever the hell original is?
Everything else is plagiarism I had been going in a different direction
the loss of the mystique, is no great loss.
but to not touch of the near mystical experience,
that is achieved.
The balance of mental and physical calm,
that is needed to be matched with direct force
equal to the goal, a wiil, the grasp of life.
then, now...
Monetize?-spending/to be famous?
making coin? risking it all . .
"banking it"?
given the way it looks on insta- social media, amazed there are not more reports of carnage.
Then there are the quiet ones, the naturals,
with talent & the grit to preform.
meet,(&,google more of his You tube stuff)
Czd, a'not him', a gender neutral cat (he flashed 99% up to V7-8)
not that there is anything wrong with that,[Click to View YouTube Video]
my footage, different song & angles, same problems, [Click to View YouTube Video]
-he is just finishing up at Yale Law school.
(almost,full ride) scholarship helps more...
I felt at risk of getting punched in the head,
if any of the dirt-bike riding "red-hat wearing"
beer guzzlers who I share this area with came by.
but that he wanted to stare down Golfers
who thought aiming at us, on a different hillside,
was fun, nearly did lead to "fistecuffs"
you do not want to tangle with a f. . . - whats the new trem "INcul"?-
who cranks, flashes V7 gets the V9s in a few tries
& has a chip on his shoulder for having had be born olive skinned.....
(some, might see irony, in fact, I seem to attract strange, who wouda' guessed?) (;*D
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Trump
climber
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Sure. We’re social animals. The math works itself out, even if we’re unable to work out how the math works itself out.
X is always an unknown
Y gets buried in your bones
Other people (like kids today, and my supporters, and burkhini fans) just don’t do it right. That’s why the Darwin Awards, and Sacha Baron Cohen, are so funny, to us right righteous kids. That’s just part of OUR y.
It’s crazy to try to monetize this sh#t. Who says so? I, with my righteous white-privileged pinkish skin, do! Aren’t there any wooly mammoths left for us righteous human monetizers to hunt anymore?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Gunkie, when I was 6 I was lucky enough to be in the cockpit of a Blue Angels plane so I
fast forwarded past the brolly stage. 😜
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I don't recall the exact circumstance, but Bachar was asked if he was concerned that people might try to imitate what he was doing.
His answer was something to the effect of "Not really. Most people have a change of heart when they get about 20 feet from the deck." Maybe he said 10.
He made perfect sense to me at the time. Perhaps it's not so true today.
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