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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 11, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
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Despite common sense concerning the high risk of drilling in such a remote area of the Arctic Ocean, a 1000 miles from the nearest Coast Guard Station equipped to handle any type of oil spill, distant from any any deep-water port or roads to big cities Shell Oil gets the nod to drill in the Chukchi Sea.
Makes no sense to me.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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May 11, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
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pimpin' ain't easy, as the man said.
still though, that dollar turns and so it's done.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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May 11, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
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Tobia,
mmmm..Obsticless ..
Oh...and i agree..
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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May 11, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
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It's so reassuring to realize that the inmates are running the asylum.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 11, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
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Gotta have gas to keep the freeways log jammed...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
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Makes no sense to me.
What doesn't, that they didn't consult you?
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2015 - 05:30am PT
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Reilly, no need for the sarcasm; I'll be glad to explain why I see it as senseless to open up the area for oil or gas drilling.
Is it absolutely necessary at this point? In a word, no. The Atlantic Coastal waters have been opened recently, and those waters pale in comparison to the hazards of the Arctic.
I've worked in the offshore drilling field. Although it has been many years since I have done so; there is not much evidence that there is any change in their respect for the environment. It is both appalling and scandalous.
No matter what information is disseminated about safety or plans designed to prevent damage to the environment during drilling procedures or catastrophic events, it is virtually impossible to control such occurrences. I've seen it with my own eyes what goes on in the day to day operation of of a drilling platform. It isn't pretty, and not far from reckless.
Even if this were not the case, why risk such a fragile habitat? When considering the remoteness of the area and the temperament of the weather and waters there, the odds of a catastrophe are too great.
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Ed H
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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May 12, 2015 - 07:01am PT
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Thanks for the Times link RR
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 12, 2015 - 07:04am PT
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New investigation shows troubling correlation between campaign giving and approval of publicly-funded oil and gas projects
The investigation found:
 A proposed Shell petrochemical refinery in Pennsylvania is in line for $1.6bn (£1bn) in state subsidy, according to a deal struck in 2012 when the company made an annual profit of $26.8bn.
ExxonMobil’s upgrades to its Baton Rouge refinery in Louisiana are benefitting from $119m of state subsidy, with the support starting in 2011, when the company made a $41bn profit.
A jobs subsidy scheme worth $78m to Marathon Petroleum in Ohio began in 2011, when the company made $2.4bn in profit. |
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 12, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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Tobia, you don't need to splain - I worked up there. Yes, it is counter-intuitive but not as crazy
as it seems. Would I prefer they didn't? Probably, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I
remember when the North Slope was being developed and the hand-wringers were out in
force predicting the end, particularly as regards The Pipeline. 40 years on and the biggest
spill was caused by a wacko shooting holes in it. And remember all the wildlife 'experts'
telling us how the pipeline was going to stop the caribou migration? PFFFT!. The 'bou
freaking LOVE the pipeline!* It's the only shade around on a hot day PLUS they've come
to appreciate Bernoulli's Effect by standing under it to assuage the skeeters. The ramps the
'experts' mandated because they 'knew' the 'bou would be afraid to walk under the pipe? Only
used by the bulls to stand guard over their harems. What self-respecting 'bou would waste
energy walking over the pipe? They're not as dumb as a self-anointed 'expert'.
Now, does any of this relate to the Chukchi project? Only in that technology and good
management can achieve wonders.
*Not to mention you have to shoo them away from yer truck in the morning so you can get in it.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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May 12, 2015 - 08:58am PT
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you ever seen one of those pagodas made of butter, Reilly?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 12, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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I'm curious what obsticles were overcome?
Seems like Shell got helped along by everyone from the Feds to the Port Of Seattle.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 12, 2015 - 11:50am PT
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I haven't looked into this recently but over the last few years there has been increasing talk of the Russians asserting their dominance in the Arctic regions.
Therefore its not simply a matter of Greenpeace vs. Big Bad Evil Oil Companies-- because the whole thing is getting a whole lot more complicated:
europe.eu — As Russia’s relations with the West deteriorate, Russian Defence Minister Sergey Shoigu said that a large share of the country’s military units will be deployed along the whole Arctic belt from Murmansk to the Chukotka Peninsula. “We have moved into the Arctic rather actively and this year we shall have many units deployed along the Arctic Belt - in fact from Murmansk to the Chukotka Peninsula,” he told the Defense Ministry’s board meeting on October 21. “This is fundamental, large-scale work,” Shoigu added. http://oilpro.com/links/detail/9140/russian-military-to-defend-arctic-oil-and-gas-reserves
Greenpeace attempted some sort of harassment of certain recently built Russkie oil rigs a few months ago but promptly departed when the Russians flashed a few of their gunboats and planes nearby. The Russkies are not going to be browbeat by a few US college kids trying to save the world.If someone is going to mess with their stuff they are going to shoot first and not ask questions later.
Like I said, I don't know for certain but I can wildly speculate that the US and and some oil companies are engaged in a lot of stuff behind the scenes as regards the Russians. Maybe the Russkies are known to be considering ultimately tapping into some of these national boundary reserves secretly using some novel technology, I don't know.
What I do know is that resource exploitation and sea traffic is increasing in the Arctic with the melting ice. Sooner or later these new situations are bound to cause deepening trouble way beyond the usual suspect environmental concerns.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 12, 2015 - 11:55am PT
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And a hostile administrations various agencies Paul. Of course it didn't help running aground off Kodiak with the gulf of Mexico disaster fresh on everyones mind. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a real elephant out there and a revenue split from the Feds to the state.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 12, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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Unfortunately the US is well behind the eight ball in establishing coast guard and naval bases in our Arctic waters. The closest Coast Guard base is on Kodiak Island.
That's because traditionally our northern defenses were largely based upon ICBM, SAC and Sub deterrence and not upon a perceived need to muster a localized low-level response confined to Arctic boundaries of the sort that might develop in the future. The Russkies were more or less in the same situation and are now obviously reversing that anachronistic strategy.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 12, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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The connecting pipeline would be another major battle, Paul, though seemingly the best overall system of transport for the oil cos, the state and boroughs, and the financial health of the workforce. A lot of the environmental community would like nothing better than for TAPS to shutdown and the state cleared of the non-idigenous locals. I've heard also that seasonal tanker transport is under consideration. Where they would store eight months production and load the tankers is a real mystery
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2015 - 06:04pm PT
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RR, I just read the Kulluk article, thanks for the link. The article explains Shell's determination to sink it's bits into the sea bed and gives reason why they shouldn't.
edit(May 20):
When I read the article it seemed familiar to me. I thought about it for awhile, and remembered this thread I put up in 2013 concerning the Kulluck.
The Kulluk, Shell’s Arctic drill rig, being towed to its moorage in Dutch Harbor, Alaska, in July 2012. Photo Credit James Mason
Kulluck aground on Sitkalidak Island Photo Credit J. Klingenberg/U.S. Coast Guard
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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May 12, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
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^^ yeah thanks for the link-very interesting and certainly a tad scary to think about them getting further into this.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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May 12, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
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It amazes me that there are people on this planet who seem to be unaware of the nearly apocalyptic effects of an oil spill in the Arctic.
And to give this permission to Shell.
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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May 12, 2015 - 11:50pm PT
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an incredibly disturbing turn of events
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 13, 2015 - 12:32am PT
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hey there say, tobia... thanks for sharing...
it all is very sad stuff... :(
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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May 13, 2015 - 09:08am PT
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I'll cynically second that thank you.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 13, 2015 - 11:50am PT
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There's no reasoning with the vast majority of them Paul. Their minds have been hobbled by trendy groupthink.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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May 13, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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Hey Tolman,
I understand what you are saying and I enjoy the 'wonders' of fossil fuel for sure. I also do my best to curb my consumption while still having 'responsible' fun while I'm here. I think we can do better with our energy needs in terms of new devo and more conservation efforts in our use of fossil fuel. We are only human after all so it'll take a significant event to cause a collective change in the way we go about life. I am also aware of where I sit in relation to the rest of human population and understand it is far easier for us to change than any developing country, any of them. Anyway, I see our current 'sitch and practices short sighted in favor of $$ over anything else.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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May 13, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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tolman-paul: Or how about we do everything in our personal lives to minimize our dependence on this resource - not to mention developing alternate energy sources? Or maybe put some deep thought into the particularly catastrophic consequences of an oil spill in the Arctic - in case you haven't noticed, we're not exactly short of oil these days.
Oh, and rick sumner - I don't do the groupthink thing. I've got a mind of my own and I'm less susceptible to that disease than the pathetic sheep who elected Dubya Bush and his co-defendants and have now polluted Congress with mobs of his moral and intellectual clones.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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May 13, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
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operating to high standards in the US
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 13, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
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Its well worth it to risk the whole of the Artic so that Shell Oil and its stockholders can make more money. I mean why not, as we have already f*#ked up the planet beyond belief, why not destroy one of the very last vestiges of the wild ecosystem? and maybe, based upon everything that I see and the demons that are behind all this, that is the whole purpose.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 13, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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Thanks for demonstrating your independent mind Stewart. Seems I've heard the exact same talking points millions of times over. You forgot the Koch bros though.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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May 13, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
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Yeah - I guess the smart thing to do is nothing. After all, global warming is our kid's problem - not ours.
rick sumner - maybe you should start listening. And maybe even thinking about the big picture.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2015 - 05:03pm PT
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We have become a nation of consumers. How many products are made in the U.S.? We import most of our goods, the majority of which come from places where safety, the environment and the quality of life is of little concern.
Trying to reverse that trend by drilling in the Arctic is not a practical means of change.
My personal consumer habits don't play into the problem at hand. It isn't about me or my utilization of products made with petroleum; or any other consumer's habits.
The Atlantic Coast has just been opened to drilling. There is no need to go to the Arctic region at present, other than the financial gain of corporations and their stockholders.
The Arctic region is too fragile of an ecosystem to open it up to the "responsible" American oil industry.
It is possible they have become more environmentally friendly (because they were forced to); but those safe-guards are not possible in the Arctic Ocean. If there were any kind of accident in the Arctic from oil production, it would be impossible to contain. The damage can't be undone. What then? "Oops, we're sorry".
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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May 13, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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Whatever one's views, offshore rigs are pretty awesome.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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May 13, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
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Good article on the Kulluk rig.
Back in the early 80's I lived in Alaska and remember a jack up rig towed off Dutch Harbor toward Japan. The Helicopter deck was in a vertical position for towing, it came loose during a storm in the Gulf of Alaska, crashed down and cracked the hull. The rig eventually went down in the Aleutian trench South of Dutch Harbor.
I worked on the Kulluk rig, offshore from ANWR, in about 1995. The Kulluk was owned by Canadians at the time and was a mostly Canadian crew.
The Kulluk had a contingent of about 3 or 4 Canadian icebreakers to break up or steer the ice away from the summer drilling operations. If the moving ice was too large, the rig would pull up the drill and move out of the way.
To bring phone and network onto the rig, we used a gyro-stabilized C-band earth station antenna.
In the case of the rig moving, where the satellite signal would be lost, we used a terrestrial link with more limited bandwidth, from Prudhoe Bay out 70 miles to an old Exxon repeater site 40 miles South of the Beaufort Sea, and repeated out to the rig offshore where an omni-directional stick antenna was mounted on the top of the derrick.
I don't remember anything consequential during that project. Mostly I remember Vice President Al Gore and Secretary of the Interior Bruce Babbit landing on the rig one day. I hid inside the comm shelter to avoid the dog & pony stuff. They left the rig after a couple of hours to fly into ANWR and stay in a lodge on a lake at the base of Mt. Chamberlain, highest peak in the Brooks Range.
I also remember a contingent of Alaskan oil spill technicians traveling to Russia in the early 90's and telling me of witnessing a gusher of oil which had been going for months, despoiling a huge marshy area somewhere in Siberia.
The environmental problems in this country pale in comparison to other parts of the world.
The oil industry in the US is generally pretty environmentally conscious. Maybe not so much because of their altruism, but because there is too much money to lose by breaking environmental rules and regulations.
I always wondered how drilling could be stopped in ANWR, where the original agreement allowed drilling only in the flat coastal plain near the coast, but not stopped offshore of ANWR, where the risks in open water are much greater.
We will slowly evolve away from petroleum as the major source of energy.
Nuclear power will take years to politically recover from the disaster in Japan. The genie is out of the bottle and technology will improve, but how far it goes remains to be seen.
Musk's future battery plant in Carson City looks interesting and battery technology continues to evolve with nano-technology possibly bringing us to the next plateau.
Electric cars of the future will be in the majority.
Photo-voltaic technology is steadily becoming more efficient and cost effective.
Wind and Sun power will always be limited in certain regions, but battery storage will help bridge those gaps.
I can imagine a future environmental issue being the disposal of toxic battery materials, but maybe new battery nano-technology will minimize it.
Technology will determine our future and our fate.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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May 13, 2015 - 09:19pm PT
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It caught me off-guard so I have to do some more reading, but what they're saying is that:
they're only going to "explore" in 140 feet of water
in the summer
Somehow that doesn't ring true.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 14, 2015 - 05:08am PT
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Somehow that doesn't ring true.
Kind of deflates comparisons to the Deepwater Horizon spill, don't it.
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Degaine
climber
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May 14, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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tolman_paul wrote:
I always find it a bit ironic that climbers enjoy gear and clothing that is largely made from petrochemicals and yet are so hostile to the oil industry.
I always find this kind of comment ironic, borderline distasteful. So according to you, because I benefit from products made from hydrocarbons and fill up my tank, I should just keep my f*#king mouth shut and make no comment whatsoever when something smells funny?
tolman_paul wrote:
What would be more useful would be to come to terms with the fact they we benefit from hydrocarbons and as users of these products we should find ways to responsibly develop these resources.
Well that just contradicts the first part of your post. I know that I benefit from oil and oil-based products, and I think that this particular project in the Artic is an extremely bad idea. If I understand your post correctly, you think that my objection is "being hostile to the industry"?
Do you think that the world's oil resources are being responsibly developed and used?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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May 14, 2015 - 07:38am PT
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ZBrown wrote:
they're only going to "explore" in 140 feet of water in the summer
Somehow that doesn't ring true.
Not so sure about the Chukchi Sea, but I think it is probably similar to the Beaufort Sea.
NOAA maritime charts of the Beaufort Sea show depths in feet, not fathoms, and the tides are measured in inches, not feet. There are some places where you can go offshore for miles and be in 5 feet of water.
How far down the drill bits go into the Chukchi seafloor, I don't know (5,000 feet or more?).
"Summer" season in the Arctic is the only season they can drill offshore, short of manmade islands which are only feasable relatively close to shore.
Sea ice is definately one of the summer challenges.
The distance from shore in the Chukchi is also a challenge in summer due to weather and fog conditions.
One thing I have observed over the past decade is that the old hardy souls who first developed the North Slope are retiring. It seems the new generation of contractors has to learn the old Arctic lessons the hard way. "Generally", these lessons translate into increased overhead rather than unsafe practices.
Because of technology and the industry's compliance to regulations, it is now safer to drill in the Arctic than ever before, but that doesn't mean there are no risks.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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May 14, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
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Well Larry, technically I didn't say "it". I was just reporting what the reports of what the presumptive drillers said were.
My point is that the companies in the industry do not have a good track record with regard to telling the truth.
Does anyone recall the "cloned" safety (response) plans filed by BP?
“We weren’t managing for actual risk; we were checking a box,” says Mark Davis, director of the Institute on Water Resources Law and Policy at Tulane University. “That’s how we ended up with a response plan that included provisions for dealing with the impacts to walruses: because [BP] copied word for word the response plans that had been developed after the Exxon-Valdez oil spill [in Alaska, in 1989] instead of a plan tailored to the conditions in the gulf.”
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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May 15, 2015 - 05:25am PT
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Hey z,
I see your point. I think that the larger a human bureaucracy is, the more hiding places for incompetent individuals, weather it's corporations or government. In addition, each bureaucracy has it's own culture.
BP has a dismal track record of maintenance in Alaska, and the morale of the workforce there is not good.
With so many regulatory agencies and rules to comply with, I am surprised BP is still in Alaska.
Historically they are used to going to 3rd world countries and greasing the palms of the local tyrants to get what they want. God Save the Queen!
Exxon and ConocoPhillips have a much better record of compliance and even initiate programs not required in order to be ahead of the curve. I will say that since the Exxon Valdez spill, Exxon has changed their corporate culture.
Can't speak about Shell.
This drilling approval came right from the Obama administration. They are left wing and have run roughshod over the right wing in congress to get what they want. On Arctic drilling, maybe they know something we don't.
As DMT has accurately and humorously put it: The spice must flow(at least while I am alive).
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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May 15, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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Again, I didn't say it, but that's a good line right there
the larger a human bureaucracy is, the more hiding places for incompetent individuals
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