If you hang the draws, it's a pinkpoint.

So you can never redpoint a steep route that has existing fixed chain draws. Interesting.

if you climb it naked with only Johnson tied in, is that the same as solo?

Something for the next generation to aspire to!

It is a second ascent. They just clipped their own gear.

So if you stick clip, fall, don't pull the rope and climb from a stance you are lowered to is it technically a pink point yoyo ascent?

I think the idea brought up about someone going back and red pointing any of these routes is interesting. Will anyone care? Or will the masses (of climbers) just think of it as a second ascent?

Aid
Free - toprope
Free - followed
Free - yoyoed
Free - pinkpoint
...

Aid
Free - toprope
Free - tronsight
Free - followed
Free - yo-yo
Free - pinkpoint
Free - redpoint
Free - Flash
Free - Onsight
Free Solo

I care because it makes the route easier. And i don't give a sh!t about how you did it, but for me, it's not a redpoint until I go ground up and place the pro myself.

From now on you cannot claim a second ascent of any route I do unless you have a blue buttplug inserted.

What if I climb it blind folded and find the bolts by feel?

If it's only about gymnastics, and the protection is irrelevant, then pre-hung draws and pre-hung ropes should be treated the same, stylistically.

Because pre hung ropes are not always possible and not always easier.

Connecting pinkpoint to sport climbing = noob trying to make sense of the 5.12 and up world based on their 5.8 experience.

In sport climbing, redpointing is free-climbing a route, while lead climbing, after having practiced the route beforehand (either by hangdogging or top roping).[1] Many climbers will frequently try to redpoint a route after having failed to on-sight or flash it, although occasionally a climber will forgo an onsight attempt if they suspect that the route is so difficult that an attempt would be pointless.[1] Redpointing differs from headpoint, in that it is exclusive to sport routes with protection equipment fixed into the rock at regular intervals.

The English term "redpoint" is derived from the German Rotpunkt (point of red) coined by Kurt Albert in the mid-1970s at Frankenjura. He would paint a red X on a fixed pin that he could avoid using for a foot- or handhold. Once he was able to free-climb the entire route, he would put a red dot at the base of the route. In many ways, this was the origin of the free climbing movement that led to the development of sport climbing ten years later.

Modern sport climbing ethics do not consider it a redpoint if one successfully climbs a route on toprope without using or weighting the gear or rope, though leading with preplaced quickdraws is typically allowed, even in international climbing competitions. Free-climbing while leading with preplaced quickdraws is sometimes referred to as a pinkpoint.[2]

Traditional climbers sometimes use a variant of the term, greenpoint, to describe leading a sport climb using only natural protection, i.e. without using preplaced bolts or pins.[3]

In climbing, a pinkpoint is similar to a redpoint. To obtain or accomplish a pinkpoint, the climber must climb the route from the start, leading while clipping the rope into previously placed quickdraws as they go to the top, without falling or hanging on the rope. This differs from on-sighting a climb or flashing a climb in that a pinkpoint can be attempted as many times as needed, so long as it is climbed from the start without falling or hanging.

A pinkpoint differs from a redpoint in that quickdraws are already in place on the bolts along the climb. This style was first created for practical reasons. It proved very difficult to remove all runners on an overhanging route after every attempt so they were just left in place for the next climber. On bolted routes using pre-placed quickdraws is commonly accepted today, however, some climbers argue that a 'true' redpoint where quickdraws are placed while climbing represents a more difficult climb. For traditional routes protected with removable gear (nuts, friends...) only a real red-point (including the placement of gear, which often adds to the difficulty) is generally recognized as a successful ascent.

So in certain circumstances, a top rope is harder than a lead? Should that be celebrated?

And what about in those other circumstances where it is possible/easier?

even sport climbers still use the term "top-rope"

Alpa, I'd like to mention that I fail to see where a TR would be harder than leading? Surely you don't mean it makes the actual climbing harder? Just that it makes the logistic of setting everything up harder correct?

Not disagreeing that it can certainly be more dangerous on steep or traversing routes.

The preceding statement was based on ego, not logic

he rope often tugs you and throws your balance/climbing off, and can get in the way of holds where a lead rope would not do so.

Isn't it fun to have an actual discussion about climbing however?

. . . modern climbing ethics as practiced at the top of the sport.

May 7, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
. . . modern climbing ethics as practiced at the top of the sport.

In addition to the point about what constitutes ethics, above, the concept of "top of the sport" implies a method of measuring the heirarchy of the sport. The touchiness of the defenders of an expanded definition of redbpoint comes from a desire to measure that heirarchy in a way that maximizes the status of their preferred style of climbing.

The attempt to diminish the importance of traditional styles of climbing in calculating that heirarchy seems, to me, an admission that those who ascend a climb of a particular rating with a more traditional style achieve something more difficult that someone who does a climb with the same rating, but using the sport climbing style. Otherwise, why the whining?

John

It all comes down to what type of "difficulty" you value.

Weak delete JLP

After a certain age point they are all heraclituspoints,

did you ever hear a Stonemaster saying they Pinkpointed?

Just that I think the correct terminology should be used.

Let me help you out here, you clearly need it.

< 12a or so. Nobody gives a sh#t, call it anything. Extra points for adding "in my approach shoes" or "roller skates".

~12b-12c "RP" = nobody gives a sh#t if you hung your own draws or they were already hanging, but you can note it if you like, just to be clear among people of similar ability.

> 12c "RP" = everyone assumes the draws were hanging, you don't need to add anything else to your statement. If the draws were not hanging, you might be inclined to add "OS/RP while hanging draws" to send home the point that you really shouldn't have been wasting your time on a climb so beneath you.

"Pinkpoint" = "I'm a noob and really should STFU because I don't know anything about rock climbing".

Let me help you out here, you clearly need it.

If I hang off pre hung draws is it still 5.7 A0?

If you think it matters whether or not the draws are pre-hung then you are probably really old, and/or climb easy sh#t.

the rules as i learned them.

Any mere athlete can do a sport climb, but it takes craft and cunning to do a 5.6 with proper protection . .

Specifically, as a shorter-than-5.9 climber, I find that the hardest and scariest part of sport climbing is often hanging a draw. This is frustrating because it's not an innate feature of the rock, but an accident of the height of the first ascencionist relative to me. Pre-hanging draws often allows me to climb the ROCK in a more authentic way, clipping from the restful stances that the FA used to hang the draws, but from which I can't reach the bolt. Perhaps this comnpromises the authenticity of my climbing the artificial bolt line. I'm OK with that.

How often do you actually fall on and test those placements you deem so masterfully placed? That's right - never. You'd soon wind up in the hospital falling on most < 11 routes anyway.

so the first time Pei tried it, was with the draws in thanks to them. In fact you can thank them for this thread.

It allows the climber to focus more on the climbing aspect (instead of wasting time and energy fudging around reaching for draws on the harness).

So roots, what's it been, about 20 years since you've paid any attention to what's going on in the climbing world? Or did you think Sharma really put the draws in when he redpointed Just Do It 20 years ago?

People want to change that definition?

Do they define the game?

Because if he hung em' in my eyes. It's a pinkpoint.

I thought a yellowpoint meant doing the approach, looking at the route and being too scared to attempt it.