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crankster
Trad climber
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May 11, 2015 - 09:21pm PT
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OK, now you're making some sense. ( on drugs)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
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I don't owe you an apology.
You do, but I'll wait on Christ to judge that one between us. You were WAY beyond the pale on that one!
Later days....
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
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Obviously because the only way you can do that is by stealing those thousands from other people. wow the delusion is never ending!!!!
Single payer steals from no one, it just spreads the costs and has a much lower over head. 3% rather than 14 to 25% of the private firms
Isn't it the Private insurance companies that are stealing thousands from their clients, and providing poor service because they can, and denying coverage when it's too expensive, yes it is.
how do all the other first world countries do it and love it so much, I don't see them going broke because of "life style choices"
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John M
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
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you don't know where the line is. Lawyer is what comes to mind. You dance around it legally never technically crossing it, but ignore the spirit.
One must worship in spirit and in truth.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
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You dance around it legally never technically crossing it
IF that were strictly true, at least I never cross it. You did.
Give it a rest.
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John M
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
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you first big guy.. your post about how much you give was an insult to everything Jesus taught. Your words may not contain a technical insult, but your tone most certainly does.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:32pm PT
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Single payer steals from no one, it just spreads the costs and has a much lower over head.
Delusional? Who?
What do you think that "spreads the costs" IS?
And you appeal, like all libs, to the socialist democracies of Europe as though we are supposed to emulate THEM.
NOT!
I'll say again, "the government" HAS no money! "It" cannot "spread the costs" without TAKING money from somebody to do so. And universal health care is NOT among its enumerated powers. Period.
Just as we do on a local level with police and firemen, etc., you have every right to band together with your neighbors and even an entire state and form up any approach to shared health care you have in mind.
What you do NOT get to do and still abide by the constitution is IMPOSE your plan on the entire nation. The FEDS were supposed to be value-agnostic.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 11, 2015 - 09:32pm PT
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MB1, your exactly right on all your points. And you show a mature thinking concerning the division of church and state. Feels to me that all these "safety net" structures should qualify under the title "separation of church and state", just without the region aspect. I mean, taking care of people is what the church DOES. And I agree with you it's NOT the Feds job! So how is it that these safety nets get invoked? By majority rule? Well gay marriage was legalized without a majority.
I think WE THE PEOPLE need to figure out how to get Dr Fry cheap ins. Rates for high medical prices. And the poor mom of three a cheaper avenue to high priced god given organic healthy food to nourish those kids..
I'll vote for you when you run for president 8^D
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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was an insult to everything Jesus taught
I'm not going to debate theology with you. The point of my post was clear.
Craig Fry called me out as selfish and greedy. I proved that I actually put MY money, time, and effort where my values ARE, and far more than the vast majority of liberals. Then I called him out to prove that HE puts his money where his mouth is.
Again, percentile of charity-to-income ratio. Let's hear it, Fry.
So far, no response on that one.
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John M
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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thats a whitewash of what you said..
and yes.. Dr F can be very insulting..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:36pm PT
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I'll vote for you when you run for president
Thank you, Blue. But you'd be the only one. LOL
As Clint Eastwood said, "A man's got to know his limitations." I don't have that "winning personality" that people value over almost all else in a president. LOL
Thanks for your other props also.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:41pm PT
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taking care of people is what the church DOES.
Well, yeah, was SUPPOSED to do. Regarding that point, John M is spot on. Christianity has largely become a tax-exempt lobbying/legislating enterprise rather than an educational/charitable enterprise.
And as it tries to IMPOSE its value system on society, it moves toward the very mixture of state-empowered church edicts that made the Papacy "great" not so long ago.
We learned from those hundreds of years. Why do we now have to relearn what our founders already knew? You cannot mix ANY value-systems with state power, or you slide into tyranny. The feds were supposed to be value-agnostic.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 11, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
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Thanks. I learned a lot tonight!
I like your restricting profits of medicines idea. But who could do that? And how
I often wonder how to get people interested on an idea and to come together and stand up for what could be good for them. And I jus talkin locally like here in JTree. Most of what the Gov inacts or denies around here is caused by only 4-5% of the population. The only place I see people converging and discussing society are the churches. Bet that leaves out what, 75% of the people? The only other place I see groups are at sports venues.
I'd like to see town forums become vogue!
BTW, I've been a registered Libertarian since 82' and have never been more proud of it then tonight! I advocate civil liberty, and believe the doctrine of free-will! Jus like Jesus 8^D
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
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I'd like to see town forums become vogue!
Grassroots movements can still have real power in this country, I think. The struggle is that people really have to relearn the principles of legitimate government. At that point, they would quickly realize that neither present major party abides by them. Then perhaps we could get past the staggering cognitive disconnect that Congress has barely a double-digit approval rating, yet over 90% of incumbents are reelected cycle after cycle.
These guys do NOT represent our interests. They get paid FAR too much (on our dime) for what they do. They do everything in their power to insulate themselves from us while hanging out the "open for business" shingle for big corporations. And they don't seem to have a shred of ingenuity to ask the right questions about what is really broken, so that their "fixes" are: 1) within their constitutionally-granted powers to do in the first place, and, 2)actually address the PROBLEM rather than just symptoms.
MOST of what affects us directly was supposed to be legislated locally or by the states. Your single vote is far, far too diluted at the federal level to have any impact unless you can join it to a growing grassroots movement dedicated to substantive change.
Perhaps we're already too far gone. I maintain hope that grassroots movements can accomplish substantive change. I guess we'll see.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
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But who could do that? And how
That sort of regulation falls clearly and neatly within the interstate commerce clause, so the feds have both the power and the responsibility to enact anti-trust regulation on drug companies, health care providers, and insurance companies, particularly those that do business across state lines!
All of my suggestions (and many others that other people could mention) COULD be implemented, literally, this week if congress would go to the roots of the problem and ADDRESS them rather than pander to the very corporations that ARE the problem.
Health care should cost a TINY fraction of what it does in this nation! Rather than to "spread the cost around," which does NOT actually address the problem, let's tell Congress to FIX the problem in a way it actually has the legitimate power to do: REDUCE the costs of health care, which means to take seriously the obscene profits made by every segment of the total health care INDUSTRY.
Could we not ALL (across the aisle) agree on substantive changes that should be made to eliminate anti-trust profiteering in a critical market segment that so fundamentally affects us all?
Perhaps instead of we here on the taco stand continuing to fight about, say, Obamacare, we could constructively work together to put forth a sort of "program" that we could pass on to our respective representatives and start a grassroots movement to actually FIX the core problem with healthcare in this country. I could even cope with Obamacare itself if the CORE problems with health care were actually fixed. And WE could insist that they be identified and fixed. It's all about obscene profit among monopolistic corporations that HAVE violated the trust of the American people. And Congress DOES have the legitimate power to rein them in.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 11, 2015 - 10:28pm PT
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Have any links to any good ones?
I'm ready to jump on the bandwagon. I'm stunned how the Gov is dictating the running of my daughters elementary school. And so are some of the teachers. But they won't do nothing. It's a PUBLIC school and the parents should/need to be more vocal about the curriculum.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 11, 2015 - 10:47pm PT
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Perhaps instead of we here on the taco stand
MAN, I right there with ya! And Mr. Fry started to ask questions. But I'm afraid most here are jus lookin to poke someone in the eye..
What can I do from this end? I got strong legs for runnin! I'm close to LA. I'm friends with a top surgeon at UCLA, my aunts a nurse. Start with some documented facts? I'm being silly, but I'm SERIOUS!
I don't see anywhere the public pushin a positive change
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Degaine
climber
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May 12, 2015 - 03:55am PT
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JEleazarian wrote:
Deagine, I'd start with Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind.
He finds, summarizing numerous psychological studies, that those on the right tend hold five values, three of which those on the left also hold, but one common value, "liberty," gets defined differently depending on whether the subject is politically left or right-valued. That difference explains a great deal of the different policy prescriptions.
I agree that the views of the "Christian Right" don't follow Haidt's generalization. I also believe, however, that the "Christian Right" does not reflect a mojority of conservative thought, although I have no citation for that belief.
Thanks for your reply and the book citation. I'll look into reading Haidt's work.
I'm not so interested in how people feel as in what they actually do. Today the right bears no resemblance to your interpretation of Haidt's analysis. The Christian Right has always had a stranglehold on the Republican party, that's the reality, it doesn't matter what the so-called majority of conservatives believe. Falwell would have been relegated to "never heard of him" status if the Christian Right had only a little influence.
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Degaine
climber
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May 12, 2015 - 04:07am PT
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Madbolter wrote:
You REALLY want health care to be accessible and affordable? Here's a short list of reforms that the feds actually HAVE constitutionally-granted powers to do, and that would save EVERYBODY thousands of dollars, while not costing "the people" anything in the form of direct theft:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Here's a quick reply point by point.
Madbolter wrote:
1) Put caps on consumables and procedures costs. It is ABSURD that a syringe used to administer a shot at a hospital can cost hundreds of dollars! It is ABSURD that this or that drug can cost thousands per dose! On and on.
That's already the case in universal healthcare cover systems in France, Germany, Japan...
Madbolter wrote:
2) Force health insurance companies to become closely-audited non-profits. You should NOT be entitled in this country to make obscene profits on the misery and death of others.
This is the case in France, for example, with regard to the private insurance people pay for to cover difference between the cost of care and what the single payer reimburses.
Madbolter wrote:
3) Tie the profitability of drug companies to their actual R&D costs. Again, if health care is a "right" of any sort, as you say, then enforce that right by ensuring that obscene profits are taken out of the marketplace.
Drug prices are capped in Europe. Pharma companies are still making huge profits, but the cost burden is significantly less than in the USA. Also, in France for example, Pharma cos are not allowed to advertise prescription drugs (TV ads, etc.).
Madbolter wrote:
4) Severely limit the term of drug patents and insist that doctors must ALWAYS prescribe generics whenever they become available rather than the name-brand version.
Drug patent limits are the same (or similar) in the EU as they are in the USA, but the second part of your point 4 is already the case => in countries like France (and Germany I think), doctors and pharmacists are required to prescribe / recommend the generic (if one exists). In certain cases the patient can choose a brand, but then pays more out of pocket (reimbursement rate is based on the generic).
Ironic that you so criticize the social democracies in Europe, and yet the health care systems have already successfully implemented for years almost exactly what you advocate.
One last figure, the per capita cost for healthcare in the US is twice that of France and Germany and 3 times that of Japan.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 12, 2015 - 07:14am PT
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Ironic that you so criticize the social democracies in Europe, and yet the health care systems have already successfully implemented for years almost exactly what you advocate.
The fact that you cannot distinguish between what I criticize and what I advocate, going so far as to call European health care "almost exactly what I advocate," clearly shows that you had no intention of reading me with comprehension and charity.
The reforms I advocate can (and should) be instituted ENTIRELY apart from anything approaching a single-payer system. Those European governments have cherry-picked among my reforms because such reforms save THEM money! OUR government has no interest in saving US money because it's not THEIR money. And, as you noted, NO European nation has implemented all of my suggested reforms, so not a ONE of them remains above criticism even on those minimum points. As I said, my suggestions are just a start.
In short, the entire FORM of health care in Europe bears NO resemblance to what I would advocate, as I have clearly stated that I am opposed to any FORM of "redistribution" at the federal level. How you get "almost exactly" out of that is mind-boggling. And even your "best case" treats "Europe" as though it is one nation, when by your own argument, not a single one of those nations has done even the MINIMUM reform I propose.
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