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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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yeah right sir blight.
the suffering inflicted on the people of the world by so called christians over the last thousand years makes me want to be part of the herd.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Well, of course you don't."
I tried to give a better one.
"You say you don't see that God exists and see no good arguments."
Correct
"But almost everyone else on earth does."
God arguments or fear, social norms etc?
"Over 90% of all human beings have some kind of religion, based on their own experience which is that God exists."
Or because there parents and sociaty told them to. Many philosophers have tried to prove that God exist but I have to admitt that I dont by them.
Almost 100% of western children belive in Santa Claus. Does that prove that he exist?
"But just because you don't have that experience, you claim that no-one else can."
No, I haven't claimed that. I belive faith can be good for people. I dont belive that it is necessary for me though.
You on the other hand claimed that I miss something because I dont have faith in God.
"Which, of course, makes no sense at all."
Making a straw man and destroing it dont prove that you are correct.
"Well, you'd want to keep a close eye on yourself then. Four of the top five mass murderers of all time were atheists, responsible for over 100 million deaths. Atheism dwarfs religion in the sheer violence and brutality of its history."
You might be right about the massmurders. Who are you talking about? Hitler, Stalin, Mao? Pol pot?
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler Doesn't seem that Hitler was an atheist.
I dont like these kind of generalisations. I have problem to fel responsibly for some nutcases that died many years before I got born. I doubt that you like to be resposibly for which burning for example.
A lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion over the years. Bad things have probably been done in the name of atheism also. I cant blame Hitler and the second world war on atheism. Do you blame ateism when a crazy atheist takes over a country and start a war?
You want to make the point that atheism is more dangerous compared to religion. You try to do that by taking into account the largest massmurders. You avoid many bads things by only considering the worst cases. The cumulative bad things from religion might be larger. I dont know and it is very difficullt to measure.
I have problem to see religion as peacemaking when I look at the world and see all conficts that exist because of religion.
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Blight
Social climber
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God arguments or fear, social norms etc? Or because there parents and sociaty told them to.
Well, thanks for speaking for all of us. I like the imaginary indoctrination bit.
Because of course if they were religious of their own free will, because of their own personal experiences of God, that would shoot the sh#t out of your argument, wouldn't it?
Because then, almost everyone would know that God existed except you, and you'd STILL be claiming that almost everyone in the world was wrong except you.
You on the other hand claimed that I miss something because I dont have faith in God.
Yes, you are!
You literally have less to your life than someone who has faith, because they have everything you do PLUS faith, and all that comes with it. In your life you have the same as them, MINUS faith.
Well I bet that stings. Oh well, tough sh#t.
I dont like these kind of generalisations.
Whoops, shoulda thought of that BEFORE you started claiming that all religious people are wrong, brainwashed and gullible.
Oh yeah, and:
I have problem to see religion as peacemaking when I look at the world and see all conficts that exist because of religion
You keep on coming out with crude generalisations like that one, and I'll keep pointing out that 100 million people have been murdered by only 5 atheists: if you want to play the "religion is responsible for so much suffering" card, you're going to have to swallow this: atheism is responsible for far, far worse things than religion could ever dream of.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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blight,
"You literally have less to your life than someone who has faith, because they have everything you do PLUS faith, and all that comes with it. In your life you have the same as them, MINUS faith."
Life + Faith is still equal to Life.
therefore,
faith = ZERO.
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Blight
Social climber
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Yup, I thought that would hurt, hawkeye.
Still, life's tough sometimes. Oh and you can probably kid yourself that a life with no faith, no hope, no peace, no God and no purpose to it has just as much in it as with with all those things, but that's the only person you're kidding.
After all, if there's no truth to it then why were you butt hurt enough to make a snippy reply?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Whether you are a theist, atheist or agnostic is just a blip in the conceptual area of your mind that may or may not make a difference in how you live. If you ask me God doesn't give a damn what you believe. God's grace is conducted by the intention of the heart.
Some Atheists or Agnostics are simply being honest about not having enough information or experience to acknowledge a reality that is hard to fathom and whose existence is cloaked with myth, superstition and political corruption.
Real connection with Spirit can exist without conscious conception of God and Religion. Real spirituality is marked by a capacity for love and peace of mind, whoever, whereever, and however it arises.
Belief in God goes away when you are sleeping, eating or doing anything else. Spiritual connection is who you are all the time
Peace
Karl
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Blight
Social climber
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Wow, I can't believe raymond phule's actually defending hitler.
Wow.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Well, thanks for speaking for all of us. I like the imaginary indoctrination bit."
Ok, I am going to try to explain what I meant. A lot of personal beliefs and such come from the enviroment. Children belive in Santa becuase their parents and society tell them that he exist. It is likely that your political views are similar to the people around you. It is much more likely that your religious beliefs is cristian if you live in the US with christian parents compared to if you live in india with hindu parents. This is how it works and I wouldn't call it indoctrination. Can you explain in some other way that the religous beliefs is different in different parts of the world?
"Because of course if they were religious of their own free will, because of their own personal experiences of God, that would shoot the sh#t out of your argument, wouldn't it?"
As above, I dont belive that everybody choices religion or atheism by there own by taken a reasoned choice. How do you explain hindu in India, christian in the US and many secular in northern europe and at the same time complete freedom of choice?
"Because then, almost everyone would know that God existed except you, and you'd STILL be claiming that almost everyone in the world was wrong except you."
Proff by concensious is not a valid argument. Most people belived that the relativity theory was incorrect but it turned out to be correct. Everybody know that the earth was flat.
I dont claim that God doesn't exist. I dont belive that he doesn't exist but cant prove it.
"You literally have less to your life than someone who has faith, because they have everything you do PLUS faith, and all that comes with it. In your life you have the same as them, MINUS faith."
I cant see why faith should be that important compared to other stuff. I have a lot of things both spiritual and material. I am sure that I have a better life compared to many religous people with faith. Or are you again suggesting that I am unlucky because I have no faith? You said before that a fullfilling life was possibly for an atheist.
"Well I bet that stings. Oh well, tough sh#t."
No it didn't sting actually.
"Whoops, shoulda thought of that BEFORE you started claiming that all religious people are wrong, brainwashed and gullible."
I have tried to explained above what I belive about brainwashed and gullible. I belive that it is mostly a cultural thing.
I must be allowed to belive that most people are wrong in a matter where there are no proofs?
"You keep on coming out with crude generalisations like that one, and I'll keep pointing out that 100 million people have been murdered by only 5 atheists: if you want to play the "religion is responsible for so much suffering" card, you're going to have to swallow this: atheism is responsible for far, far worse things than religion could ever dream of. "
First, can you tell me which crual acts you are talking about?
Second, I dont think atheism is responsible for an action just because the person is atheist in the same way that I dont blame the religion if a religous person make an action. I belive that most of your examples have nothing to do with religion and I have thus a problem to blame religion.
A lot of bad things have been done in the name of the religion (or atleast people claiming that it is for the religion). Some examples Irland, Yugoslavia, which burning, the crusades, 9/11 etc. This doesn't show that religions is bad but that bad things have been done.
My point is that bad things happen and have happened in the world both by atheist and religous people and that the problem is the people not if they have faith or not.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Wow, I can't believe raymond phule's actually defending hitler.
Wow."
Sorry, did I defend Hitler? Must go back and read my post once again. Back soon.
I am back. So I wrote
" I cant blame Hitler and the second world war on atheism. Do you blame ateism when a crazy atheist takes over a country and start a war?"
Ok, not the best sentence but I am supprised that some one could belive that I defended Hitler by that sentence...
Ok, for Blight. I thought Hitler was one of the massmurders you refered to. Then I wanted to make the point that the reason for Hitlers crimes wasn't because he was an atheist but becuase he was a cracy lunatic. I found out later that Hitler wasn't an atheist and made an edit. But didn't edit the rest of the post. So I dont defend Hitler.
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Blight
Social climber
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Can you explain in some other way that the religous beliefs is different in different parts of the world?
No, and I'm not going to either because it's a completely irrelevant distinction.
There are thousands of different languages in the world, with regional variations. Does that mean that all languages are wrong? Or do they all serve the same purpose almost equally well?
First, can you tell me which crual acts you are talking about?
Nope. You say that religion is responsible for non-specific "conflicts", I'll keep hitting you with non-specific murders by atheists until you stop it. Don't like the taste of your own medicine? Quit dishing it out then.
Proof by concensious is not a valid argument.
Of course it is. I've never been to Hong Kong, but a hell of a lot of people tell me it exists. Would it make any sense at all for me to say Hong Kong definitely doesn't exist because I haven't seen it?
Cos that's the argument you're using.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Lots of people are schizophrenic too, but that doesn't mean the voices in their heads are real. But feel free to maintain whatever relationship with whatever imaginary friend you need to keep you from committing mass genocide. Probably for the best.
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WBraun
climber
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Why do so many people believe in God?
It's so simple, all the speculation and foolish nonsense in these threads is a mind blower.
It's because we are part parcel of the supreme lord. We have all the qualities but not the quantities. There never exists any separation from him, only forgetfulness due to our rebellious nature and independent free will.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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And that's our fault but not "His"? What a strange little game he plays. On the one hand taking credit for all that is, but on the other disavowing responsibility for his own creation's "rebelliousness." Sounds bipolar to me.
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WBraun
climber
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cintune
You are just a foolish mental speculator.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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How does God keep track of all of us?
Why does he do such a bad job?
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 02:57pm PT
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Blight:
some data for you:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited."
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
"We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk."
-Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935
"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf,
You'll probably really like this one:
"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
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Manjusri
climber
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Man is not omniscient, therefore there exists that which is unknown and transcendent. There are as many different ways of conceptualizing this as there are people, and the name it goes by for most is "god". To paraphrase Roger Zelazny: Some people bow before the unknown and avert their eyes, and others advance upon it with the tools available to the mind to make it known.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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I just wish God got the Human Spine Design Correct.
Or maybe made gravity a little less strong.
JDF
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