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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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PHow do 'you' meditate?
When I was a teenager I had an altercation with my dad (one of many) and hitchhiked away from home. I ended up living on a commune for several months and learned some meditation from a man who had for awhile been a Hare Krishna. He gave me a copy of the Bhagavad-Gita
to read and I actually read quite a bit of it. This was when I was around 15 and was completely lost in the direction that my life would go and where I was headed.
I was really open to suggestion back then and it was quite a bit easier for me to try new things. The man (he gave himself the nickname of Lucifer by the way) taught me to meditate by sitting with the knees crossed on a mat, with arms to the side, and with thumb and forefinger almost touching. I was to say Om Mani Padme Om or just Om with my eyes closed and focus on something in front me in my mind's eye.
I don't remember much else about the experience, but looking back I'm probably damn lucky I did not end up in some kind of Manson style cult, yet I think that red flags would've probably gone up in my head immediately if that was the case. Still, I lived on that commune for several months before I was kicked out for acting like an adolescent. They were planning to migrate and start a pot farm in Washington.
Of course my lifestyle is about 180° from that lifestyle (the hippie lifestyle) today. But even though I think I'm an atheist, I am toying with the idea of meditating again because the level of stress from my business has been causing me some health issues.
1. Does anyone have any suggestions about how I should go about learning to meditate again?
2. Was what I was taught back then anything close to how I should be doing it?
3. What are some suggested readings on teaching myself meditation?
4. I am extremely averse to any kind of one-on-one with a guru because I do not like taking orders and won't from anyone (except reluctantly from my wife)
I'll admit it, I'm whipped.
5. What techniques do some of you here on the thread use to meditate?
-bushman
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
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Bushman, I will try to help you by relating your questions to my experiences. I don't think there is one certain or best way to approach the subject but I think others might say you are not doing it right or you should try their method. I don't find these kind of approaches very useful to anyone but the giver's ego.
1. Does anyone have any suggestions about how I should go about learning to meditate again?
I think that anyone who has gotten anything useful would have suggestions, especially beginners. It is human nature to want to tell or teach something you found that was of value to you. As you progress, you realize that the value was to you and that you discovered it and that it is better for an individual to discover truths for themselves than to merely try to discern them from another person's perspective.
2. Was what I was taught back then anything close to how I should be doing it?
You have the memory of that event. Did it resonate with you then? Does it resonate with you now?. Other than those two questions, I don't think there is a way you "should" be doing it.
3. What are some suggested readings on teaching myself meditation.
4. I am extremely averse to any kind of one-on-one with a guru because I do not like taking orders and won't from anyone (except reluctantly from my wife).
I'll admit it, I'm whipped
I'm putting these two questions together because I think they are related. I am with you on #4 and I have never gurued-up for anything. And I do respect my wife and her opinions more than most. she is probably as close to me as anyone, if not more. As for suggested reading, I think there is an element of truth in anything you read but discernment is necessary to discover it and it must resonate with the truth that your self finds evident.
5. What techniques do some of you here on the thread use to meditate?
I have tried a lot of things over the years with mixed results. The best stuff for me has been totally spontaneous discoveries that I found just worked really well for the intention I went forth with.
Which brings me back to my first assertion in this thread.
Someone will probably say that my ideas are not what the Buddhists taught, and that is correct. I am not Buddhist or do I want to be a Buddhist, so why would I follow that path. Enlightenment is a concept that escapes even Buddhists, and enlightenment is not the word I would choose to describe my intentions.
I hope this makes sense and is helpful in your quest, Bushman.
Peace Out.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Thanks Ojai Alex and Wayno,
1. What should I meditate on; idea, thought, nothing, etc.?
2. How do I go about not thinking about other things while I'm meditating?
3. For how long and how often do I meditate?
I know these questions might sound stupid coming from an old one time hippie and climber, oh well.
-bushman
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 05:30pm PT
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But even though I think I'm an atheist, I am toying with the idea of meditating again because the level of stress from my business has been causing me some health issues.
So, at this point you are just toying with the idea. You are pretty sure the level of stress from your avocation is causing ill health. Maybe "meditation" would help, but you don't know how to do it. If you look at it that way, you might be adding some stress to the equation of how to deal with stress. I think the ability to relive stress through meditation is so over-rated. It can become a crutch just like anything that stops you from actually eliminating the stress. You can get to a relaxed state of mind where the everyday stresses of life are insignificant but that doesn't get rid of the cause of your stress and only gives you a vacation of sorts.
And what does you thinking you are an atheist have to do with your question?
Scientists have measured brainwave activity of people in various meditative states and have come up with some interesting correlations. States of mind are associated with vibratory levels of brainwave activity. The first or Alpha state covers a certain range of frequencies and is correlated with that sense of well-being and relaxation without effort of focus, but still aware of sensory input and still quite conscious. This is the easiest state to achieve and there are many ways to become proficient at getting there. I first achieved this spontaneously when there was a need and since then, I have discovered several ways to achieve that.
I think the best thing to do first is make the decision to give an honest try and set aside time and be patient with whatever method you try. Be sincere, patient, and humble and avoid selfish reflection. Be the observer and let go of attachment to any thoughts that arise. You can't stop your mind from thinking, but you can create a perspective where the thoughts just come and go and sooner or later you are not even paying attention anymore. You have the ability to create this way of observing yourself without attachment. Just to it and do it again until it is just natural. Who is in charge in there, anyway?
As you get better you can go deeper to the point where you think you fell asleep and maybe you did or maybe something else happened. Now you are at the level of lucid dreaming and astral travel but that isn't something I would talk about on this forum.
edit- For curiosity sake I looked up meditate in the dictionary. Modern common usage has altered it original meaning. It said:
To reflect upon; contemplate.
contemplate:
to ponder or consider thoughtfully.
That is why I call what I do Stillness. "Meditation" doesn't really describe what I am doing, although it can be a part of it. The second definition for contemplate is to intend or anticipate and that is closer to what I have in mind.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 27, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
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Bushman
Sounds like you want to reduce your stress levels and try meditation to help. It can probably help to a certain degree to treat the symptom.
It is probably better suited for exposing the cause of stress and helping you look right at stress , actually be stress and laugh at it's impermanence and observe how it is constructed. That is more the intention of buddhist style sitting.
Some people find mantras helpful if they have very busy minds lots of non stop thinking (probably good for Tvash and HFCS). Tibetan Tonglong style (spelling) is good if you have alot of anger ; you basically wish great joy and happyness to those you are disliking on the out breath, even yourself, and you take away their pain on the in breath it is very helpful for shutting down the negative narrative.
There are many styles; I knew a women who was about to start a 100 day solo silent sitting retreat. she had very strong opinions; the day before the retreat was to start the zen master gave her a large jar of mung beans and told her to chant a long 30 minute chant that is very intricate and detailed 100 times for every bean ( in other words 12 hrs of chanting for 100 days)
If you can find a good teacher in your area it can be very helpful; think of it like you get to go bouldering with Lynn Hill every once and while. It can be helpful to get some pointers from someone that has been down the road.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 27, 2015 - 08:21pm PT
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think of it like you get to go bouldering with Lynn Hill every once and while
I thought meditation guides one away from depression??
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 27, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
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Don't ever think that spirituality and atheism are opposed.
And L, yes I'm guiding.
Yesterday I comingled guiding with my special Ed background and took fifteen special needs kids climbing, it was a blast! And clearly a (very) active meditation!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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Don't ever think that spirituality and atheism are opposed.
Agreed. But in some people's minds, they are on opposite sides of a spectrum. Why or how? I'm not sure.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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Ok,
Thanks everyone.
I might leave a few peices in the haul bag for later on the route.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
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O.K. Bushman, I like your style. Here is a simple technique i learned recently. It really doesn't have a name but it came from a reliable source.
Just lay down in a comfortable quiet place where you can be undisturbed for an hour. It may happen for you quicker, but give yourself an honest hour. You deserve it. Just lie there and try to relax. What is the fist thing you encounter in your mind that won't let you just relax and let go. It is you. Why would you want you not to relax. O.K. Let that pass. Just count your breaths. Don't try to take a deep one or let it out slow or whatever. just do the most natural and comfortable breaths. Count ten breaths and just observe each breath without making a value judgement as compared to another breath. You will notice that your breathing changes with it's own volition. This is also you. Count to ten and then start again. It is a process that is comparable to our existence. At some point you will just stop counting and you might find yourself in a pleasant effortless state. If not go back to counting. Whatever you do, don't take it to the point of frustration so that you just give up. It is possible to come back at a better time and try again anew.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 01:00am PT
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DesChamps:
I can’t help but like what Tami says. I tend to like everything she says.
Oh, my friend, it is all up to you. You define your own success. If it eases your ills or allow you some semblance of peace, then you are the better for it.
This thing about getting a hold of your mind is useful, but slippery. I would think that anyone who wants to learn more about who and what they are, is helping themself.
I want you to know that we are all human, and we all have our burdens to bear. Not one of us is perfect. Everything is relative. Figure out what works for you, what motivate you, what turns you loose, and dig into that. Try to relax. You can do no wrong, . . . not really. Everyone really loves you.
If it helps, mostly the rest of us are in the same hell. It’s just that other people have different furniture than we do.
PSP PP:
I’m in late grading the semester and setting-up for a new course. Apologies.
I have no teaching using the 10 pictures, but I find them fully explanative. Just like Jonah and the Whale. Fall into hopelessness for a while until you believe it, and then things will look so different when you come out of it. I think you will then walk a few inches off the ground. (I did.) But you must come to face hopelessness, or some abyss. Then you begin to see, well, . . . see what cannot be articulated or stipulated.
There is this “tearing away from conventional life” that is so disturbing. One yogi said he feels like a vampire, walking in the world alone.
Facing an emptiness of understanding means becoming very lonely. It’s an arduous path: you destroy yourself at each and every turn. You feel sad through it all. You’re killing yourself. You give up a piece of yourself every day . . . .
Think about what immolation is like. I don’t mean to preach here, but it is immensely lonely. No ground under your feet, no real friendships like you think of them, nothing to claim is important or worth doing, just becoming aware of a dream in a land of dreamers.
. . . adventitious defilements. . . .
I have to say, . . . at first the use of the world “adventitious” was a term that I thought that Buddhists got hung up on, and I didn’t get it.
“Adventitious” means that thoughts have their own lives and energy. They find spaces and fill them, and they spawn yarns. To sit and watch them is a remarkable experience. It’s like sugar plum fairies dancing on snow. They are mesmerizing and wondrous. But sadly, they are not real. But they seem completely so. Delicious, actually. You can really get into them . . . :-) . . . I mean, in the most seductive ways. (Use your most sinful imagination here.) It’s easy to see how Mara protects her domain. She has every weapon possible. Name that sinful pleasure that you love. She is there beckoning you . . . “come, be with me.”
Ugh. Why don’t we just kill ourselves?
And slowly but surely, that’s what we do . . . . piece by piece. We come to realize all the lies that we accepted. Takes a while. In the end, we end up with nothing . . . not even the ‘we.’ Everything but everything is unresolvable, ambiguous, impossible to describe and explain. There is no ground.
I feel like a leaf in a stream. The more I look, the less I can explain. Yet, . . . everything seems completely right, . . . just-as-it-is.
. . . they sit rigidly without moving and, like a rock crushing grass, . . .
Just a wonderful expression.
Bushman:
Find a place and time to relax regularly. In those times, let go of everything. . . after a while, to include letting-go. Whatever that might look like for you, give it a try. And allow yourself to seek some refuge in it. Hide out. Make it your time for yourself, and guard it against others and things that threaten it. Take some time to relax in your life, really relax. What would that look like for you? Really. Give that a try, and dedicate some commitment to it. Then settle in. See what that does for you. You are your best guru. But be honest, and be diligent. Make a decision, and then follow through. Then once you’ve gotten some mileage under your belt, . . . then You Say. You make your decision, and you follow through. You are on your own. You always are. Try to remember no one knows more about your awareness and consciousness than you do. (How could they possibly?)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 28, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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Just right now my wife says lets get the family in a sit...
that we all need to sit and
<.><.>
>>O<<
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 28, 2015 - 07:45am PT
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I meditated this morning
And pushed the world away
And saw myself
With a pork pie hat and horned rim glasses
Joking with a raven
About all the malarkey
Then my self was briefly quiet
And I heard the world again
As it sang to me
'The Song in the Wood'
There is a song in the wood
And it calls for me and you
There is a song in the wood
And the dove coos
There is a song in the wood
And the jay cries
And the sparrow chirps
As the raven flies
There is a song in the wood
And the birds sing
But not for me and you
There is a song in the wood
If you can hear it softly
As the wind blows
-bushman
Thanks Wayno
I hear you MikeL
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 28, 2015 - 10:42am PT
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A lot of good stuff here. This is an excellent thread.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Mar 29, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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I've meditated (transcendental meditation as taught by Maharishi Maheshi Yogi) twice a day for 45+ years.
Recently focused upon the unanswerable question:
"What is the source of my thoughts?"
Meaning this; I observe that thoughts arise in an unending procession; they seemingly arise from within me and from an "unconscious" or pre-conscious level before reaching a level where thoughts take a form which I can perceive them in a knowable and conscious form. So, what is the preconscious and unknowable fountain from which my thoughts arise?
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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'K Now'
As I continued counting my breaths and stopping and starting again with images flowing in and out and the sounds of swishing which I realized was my breath, and the bees buzzing, and the pleasing sounds of the birds though interrupted by an airplane. I was counting and breathing again when a stage appeared with dancers in many bright colors of mostly yellow, orange, red, pink, purple, blue, turquoise, and white. They turned into elephants
and blue Krishna appeared hip-hop style dancing to pop Hindu music which was so was pleasing to the mind and the eye that I wanted it to go on and on but I knew it would not.
I knew I could not stay there watching it so I stopped and closed my minds eye again and everything went black.
And then like lightning flashing there was a giant blue yeti type beast in bright attire with a giant black mace which he smashed down in front of me and everything went black again and I knew my meditation was over. I definitely fell asleep briefly as you probably guessed by now, still, what an amazing dream.
Might have something to do with watching Slum Dog Millionaire again last night.
I love that movie. I may have been many things in life but I guess I'm just another Chai Wallah in my mind.
Could it be that apparitions such as Jesus, Krishna, and Mara are but aspects of our subconscious revealed to the conscious mind through deep meditation, while dreaming, or during times of extreme mental and physical duress?
-Bushman
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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Attempts to explain experience are fraught with problems if you’re trying to be precise or complete. I don’t think what experience is, can be explained. Of course you can spin yarns, but I’d suggest that if we can’t even say what experience is, then we may be unable to explain how it “works.”
I stopped and closed my minds eye again and everything went black.
That has never happened to me, that I can remember—or not. Even after I am put “out” by an anesthesiologist, there is still consciousness. The drugs simply bring amnesia. I’ve woken up in a procedure, knew it, and then later went back under. When I’ve sat in absolute darkness in contemplation with my eyes open, it’s gotten so bright at times that I felt compelled to close my eyes. In a situation of complete silence, you still hear a background hum or pitch.
Consciousness cannot be turned off. (It just seems that way, imaginatively.)
We have been endlessly drawn to explaining how things work (or what things are) because we are endlessly (and always) engaged with reality. Consciousness and reality are always present with each other. It has never been otherwise: mise en abyme.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 29, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
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Mike,
When I was breathing and counting during meditation, after I heard the bees and the birds, I had dozed off and was dreaming from that point on. The Krishna and the Yeti Creature in my dream happened it seems in only split seconds. When I realized I was asleep and dreaming while trying to meditate I felt compelled to write down my vivid impressions. Fact is, I have some pretty 'out there' dreams on a regular basis and often am able to wake myself from undesired dreams when situations become overwhelming or extremely uncomfortable. It's always interesting when I find myself in that moment in a dream where I realize I'm dreaming and simply wake myself with a memory of whatever crisis befell me to precipitate my having to wake myself up.
In this particular dream about Krishna the images were so rapid that the black between scenes was just that, black. I don't recall dreaming the color black before though, and come to think of it, it is probably unusual. I do think of my sleeping state as dark and memories of my childhood are dark and foggy in my thoughts. I really don't believe I am unique in this respect, although my experiences are uniquely my own as are those experiences, dreams, and memories of each of us.
Anyway, back to the topic of meditation where I'm a noob and an amateur, pardon the diversion.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 29, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
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Consciousness cannot be turned off.
It's impossible to turn off.
It's never been done ever.
Consciousness is life itself of which life comes from life.
Consciousness is eternal (anti-material) and it's source is God himself .....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 30, 2015 - 02:28am PT
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'Impetuous Moi'
In days of yore and cow pies deep,
The birds went moo,
And the cows cheep cheep,
N'er being born of man or dog,
I carved myself out from a log,
And like the ape man swung from trees,
Where all the the birds and all the bees,
Knew Mother Nature's price was steep,
She dreamt herself up in her sleep,
And taught to me this simple tool,
Man who spin yarn learn to pull,
Wool over your eyes while counting sheep.
And never forget this simple rule,
Don't take one's self imperiously,
Nor suffer fools too seriously.
-bushman
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