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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 13, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Have you read "What is Mind?" on the ST Forum?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 13, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Not sure but I believe HFCS is the resident expert on meditation over there on that infamous thread.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 13, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
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To me however, meditation is not philosophical. Or at least doesn't need to be.
I agree with you there, OA.
In fact, almost everything I've read from various meditation teachers says that getting beyond the mind is the purpose of meditation.
Several years ago I did a Vipassana Meditation course in northern California. It was 10 days of sitting in silence for 14 hours a day. Waking in silence, eating in silence, moving about the campus without even making eye contact with another person. And only ten minute breaks between the hour+ sits.
Tough as hell initially...and then...well, then it became transformational.
Within the year I did another 10-day course in the Blue Mountains of Australia.
It almost killed me. But in a good way. :-)
I find rock climbing--when you're out with only your partner and the endless mountains of stone--a form of moving meditation. Not as profound as feeling yourself disappear when you're sitting on a zafu...but definitely mind altering.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 13, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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If you really want to experience an alternate reality via meditation, OA, the long retreats are really the only way to do it, in my humble experience.
The mind is a very constant and jealous warden. It takes extended periods of what would appear to be crushing boredom by today's standards to separate "you" from your ever vigilant mind.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 13, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
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I think that there are many things people do that they call meditation. There are many things to discover when you actively take the time to liberate your thoughts from a preconceived notion of what is real or not. Some have a method and a goal and others just have a notion or desire to explore. There are many possibilities that exist in these exploratory adventures. Some do not care to explore and merely seek a peace of mind or heart, or healing. Have fun with it. If you come across "the Black Pit of Despair" then go the other way by all means. ;)
What started out for me as a nap between jobs has evolved into daily meditation and on to what I now call merely "stillness". Whether active or passive, eyes open or closed, the goal for me is the still, silent voice that remains the conduit to Universality.(Universe reality)(Source)(Consciousness)(Love)(Whatever trips your trigger)
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Mar 13, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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I have found that double-digging raised bed gardens while the wife is away provides both a sense of unthinking focus and silence...and you get a veggie ready garden plot when you are done.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 13, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
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I strive to grok the fullness of stillness......
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 13, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
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Ojai said "Teachers can be great, but it all comes down to one's self."
This is true to the extent that the teachers can only point the way and you have to do the work.
Meditation has been around asia for thousands of years and only recently showed up in the west.So westerners are typically very uninformed about meditation. Lucky for us there are many good available teachers in the last 30 years. Consequently I can't think of any good reasons as to not seek out a good teachers guidance especially if you have never meditated or if you haven't discussed your practice with a good teacher.
The problem with doing your own thing is you only do what you like and you don't do what you don't like so it becomes a ego oriented practice which ends up having the opposite intention of buddhist meditation ie. Vipassana or zen or tibetan; and consequently has very limited value in creating a space where true insight can happen.
Trungpa called this spiritual Materialism and wrote a very good book about it.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 13, 2015 - 05:15pm PT
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The problem with doing your own thing is you only do what you like and you don't do what you don't like so it becomes a ego oriented practice which ends up having the opposite intention of buddhist meditation ie. Vipassana or zen or tibetan; and consequently has very limited value in creating a space where true insight can happen.
That sounds a bit dogmatic to me, although that is certainly one way to look at it.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 13, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
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for me the best teacher is the one I found inside.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 13, 2015 - 06:42pm PT
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Chief said "4-5 days a week for 6-9 hours per session..... Alone."
I hear this alot; running is my meditation, fishing is my meditation.
It is not about relaxing, escaping and enjoying your self. It can be; but, it is also witnessing all the uncomfortable stuff too, being completely present with boredom, sorrow and pain, literally embracing it as much as you embrace fishing.
The question becomes why would you want to do that? Typically either out of great curiosity or great suffering.
Most people are too busy fishing, climbing and running to meditate or they "think" it is a waste of time; that's just the way it is.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 13, 2015 - 06:50pm PT
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Most people are too busy
Yes.
So the sitting meditation is not practical for this age of kali yuga.
In the sata yuga people could do it for the life span of a human being was up to 100,000 years.
But it took on the average 60,000 years to reach perfection.
The modern sitting meditation practices will not lead to perfection for in this age of kali yuga
a human being barely makes it anywhere near 100 years life span.
Thus one will only be reborn again in this material world to re-suffer the pangs of birth, death, disease and old age
in this age with this meditation method ......
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 13, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
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Meditation is exactly the place where you find joy.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 13, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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It's not about doing something, it's about doing nothing.
Yes .... it's been repeatedly demonstrated by the modern politards "sitting" in meditation in their offices ....
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 13, 2015 - 10:21pm PT
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do nothing but don't expect nothing.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 14, 2015 - 08:09am PT
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We are never prepared for what we expect.
James A. Michener
Caravans
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:44
King James Bible
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 14, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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This is how they respect the Buddha.
Make him sit out in the cold and in the dirt all while bird sh!t on his head .....
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 14, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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Werner...the Buddha don't care. He's beyond that. :-)
Nice Buddha, Jaybro!
About 14 months ago, I started meditating every morning. I knew it would do some good, and it has, but not in the ways I expected.
OA, about your opening post...what has meditation brought you "not in ways you expected?"
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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the Buddha don't care. He's beyond that
And you know that?
You would never put a picture of your own mother out there like that and in the dirt.
But ... with Buddha its OK because YOU say so.
This means you do not know Buddha .....
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 14, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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You're wrong, Werner.
I know Buddha very well.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 14, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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You're right Locker, if my mom had found enlightenment sitting in the dirt beneath a tree, she would no doubt revel in her picture sitting on the same dirt somewhere, in the same snow, under the same open sky, the gift of bird droppings all around her image.
But Werner is simply being a good teacher here. He's dangling the hook of shenpa to see just how well I do or don't know what the Buddha taught.
Thank you, Werner.
And thank you, Locker.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 14, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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LOL, Locker!
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 14, 2015 - 09:49am PT
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Indeed, the Buddha is everywhere and embraces all things, refusing to label good or bad, but simply resting in the joy of beingness.
Or resting in the joy of a tree root...it's all the same to an enlightened one, I imagine.
And yes, birds are very giving creatures! They give me hours of pleasure just watching them each day...bird poop and all. :-)
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Mar 14, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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"Now, in this moment, you can realize that you are truly not going to get anything from my words, that whatever your mind absorbs and accumulates as knowledge is not going to get you any more depth.
None. Zero. Nothing.
It will just get you more horizontal movement. It will just get you more knowledge. Maybe that's what you want, maybe not. But as soon as you realize the limitation of mind, the mind feels very disarmed because it has so much less to do.
There is an invitation beyond the wall of knowledge, which is not to some regressive state before the mind can operate, but a transcendent state that's beyond where the mind can go. That's what spirituality is. It's going where the mind cannot go."
~ Adyashanti
Emptiness Dancing
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 16, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
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It becomes a full contact battle for the mind. No holds barred.
OA, since you're "still neck-deep in the business", as you put it, I have to surmise that what you're actually doing is fighting your mind for control of your focus.
That is not mediation.
That is one part of your mind fighting another part of your mind.
It's a trick of your ego, pretending to be an "observer"...an observer that just happens to want to annihilate that which it is "observing".
It's the old Good Cop/Bad Cop tactic. But in the end, it's all coming from the same source: Ego.
There is no best kept secret behind mediation. There is only sitting in stillness, and calmly watching the insanity of your egoic mind as it dredges up every mistake you ever made, every lie, every loss, every wrong turn, every empty victory, every time you were a victim, a fool, a weak-willed human...just sitting there watching it like it was a YouTube video produced by someone you don't know.
In the Vipassana 10-days, the first 3 days are spent monitoring your breath as it flows in your nostrils and back out your nostrils. Three solid days, 14 hours a day, of watching/feeling air go in your nose and out your nose. That's it. For forty-two hours.
If anything's going to make you realize your life is nothing but a train wreck, that will.
I wallowed in grief and anger and regret and despair. And then I wallowed in laughter and pride and feelings of justification. There were tears and there was giddiness. I made up my mind 732 times to leave, but still I stayed. After forty-two hours of being tornadoed around by the sh!tshow, I was done. Or rather, "it" was done. The spell was broken.
Like a person watching YouTube, there was my mind--my egoic mind, as Eckhart Tolle calls it--and there was that which was observing my mind. They were not the same.
You cannot fight your mind, OA. That's just the Good Cop trying to beat up the Bad Cop and it's all ego derived.
Meditation is about detaching from the sh!tshow...sitting back and letting the YouTube video play as it may, but not putting your attention on it. The less you focus on the drama, the sooner it will become background noise...and eventually even that will fade into Muzak.
If you've been meditating for a year and are still in the trenches, then you might want to seek out a teacher...or do a longer course that forces you to get through the quagmire of your mind.
After those first three days of nose-watching, I never had to face a trench again. Not where meditation was concerned, at least. ;-)
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 22, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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Thanks for the clarification, OA. Your posts did seem to hint at a traveler of mountain paths as opposed to a trench-crawler. :-)
When I said I was out of the trenches, I meant the trenches of an unfocused mind while sitting in meditation. In this life, I'm certainly still riding the ferris wheel of reincarnation, still attached to things I know darn well I shouldn't be, and avoiding things I know I should be embracing.
But what the heck...that's what I get for leaving my Bodhisattva guidebook on a picnic table in Atlantis, darn it.
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pa
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Maybe this Buddha is warmed by the snow...?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 08:45am PT
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Practice.
Practice is a great word for endeavors with no end points. It is a word that can be used to point to doing without orientations toward achievement. Practice is also a word associated with a sense of professionalism or expertise. “Practice” implies there are paths, but also that the paths actually take you no where. It’s a journey, an unfoldment. Oriental martial arts that end in “-do” were initially seen as paths (see also: chivalry, or in Japan, bushido).
Practice often looks like selfless service.
At some point, however, practice gives way to non-practice, or non-meditation. What becomes experienced and understood comes off the pillow—from meditation to contemplation, from various conscious experiences to “being” beyond. Meditation is oriented to objects; contemplation is oriented to pristine awareness, to simple gerunds without subjects or objects.
There are many people who have had wonderful, terrifying, amazing experiences that look like nonduality, gnosis, enlightenment, and liberation. It’s said that there are many times everyday (every moment?) when beings are directly in the midst of those, but for milliseconds. Moments of unelaborated, pristine awareness are said to be experienced between thoughts (how often does that happen to anyone?), during a sneeze, immediately in the first moments of waking up from sleep, during traumatic events, etc. What appears to be “the process” (a heavy-handed phrasing) is extending and assimilating such awareness into mundane everyday life. (See the “Ten Bulls,” or 10 Ox-Herding pictures.)
Living your life is the art you’re learning, practicing, and being.
“What sees THIS [reality] is THIS. And THIS is you, as far as you know. You have to be the THIS that is you seeing THIS. That’s where the recognition happens.”
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 23, 2015 - 12:14pm PT
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^^^^Very thoughtful post, MikeL.
Now we need a photo!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
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Ha-ha.
The cat says it better.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 23, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
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^^^^Very thoughtful post, MikeL.
Really?
lol
Reminds me of Gary Zukav or Deepak Chopra.
Or that Celestine Prophecy crank.
lol
Whatever.
Different threads for different folks, I guess.
Sorry for the intrusion.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 24, 2015 - 07:25am PT
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High fructose corn spirit: In regards to your post ^^^^^
Replace the word "monks" with Gary, or Deepak, or MikeL, or L etc...
Questions & Answers with Ajahn Chah
Question: A lot of times it seems that many monks here are not practising. They look sloppy or unmindful. This disturbs me.
Answer: It is not proper to watch other people. This will not help your practice. If you are annoyed, watch the annoyance in your own mind. If others' discipline is bad or they are not good monks, this is not for you to judge. You will not discover wisdom watching others. Monks' discipline is a tool to use for your own meditation. It is not a weapon to use to criticize or find fault. No one can do your practice for you, nor can you do practice for anyone else. Just be mindful of your own doings. This is the way to practice.
And then come talk to us about "meditation". You won't have to apologize for intruding once you've actually done some. :-)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 24, 2015 - 07:46am PT
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Sounds like it will be a while before we see a buddhist monk stand-up comic.
I await the day, though.
And while I was waiting, I remembered Google.
http://www.sambradycomedian.co.uk/
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 24, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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And then come talk to us about "meditation". -L
Yesterday's commentary concerned MikeL's post and your response to it. It didn't concern meditation.
Read some Chopra, Zukav. It seems to me their "way with words" are similar.
You could start here:
http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/
Here's a good one...
"Interdependence depends on the doorway to truth."
Another...
"Knowledge is mirrored in visible timelessness."
Wow.
Can't resist, one more...
"The universe serves an abundance of acceptance."
Daniel Dennett calls these "deepities."
But whatever (works), right?
Maybe someday we might have a www.wisdomofmikel.com? :)
FWIW, I too am a believer in meditation as an important mental tool to have in one's quiver. However my approach to it is from a mind-brain science context.
Have a good one!
.....
PS If you have time, check this guy out, he's a neuroscientist...
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_eagleman_can_we_create_new_senses_for_humans#t-73288
I only mention it because I think you're into cool stuff.
And this is pretty cool stuff!
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mar 24, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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I would appreciate some guidance from those of you with experience.
I came to understand 2 years ago that my mind was out of control which resulted in anxiety for me. Doctors recommended medication which is not my thing. I have sense meditated in attempts to learn to control my mind. My goal is less spiritual enlightenment, and more gaining the ability to calm and control my mind, and in the end control anxiety.
I meditate every morning for 15 minutes and most days before lunch for 10 minutes. I have certainly made some progress, but not much. I am mostly self-taught via books and audio-lectures. Mindfulness Meditation is what I have focused on by observing my thoughts and breath. When my thoughts wander, I gently bring my focus back to my breath.
I do feel like I should be making more progress. Any thoughts?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 24, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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I practice zazen. As I mentioned on the mind thread, this is a highly personal and experiential process. It is hard to describe. I am not an expert, but here is a good overview.
http://zmc.org/zazen?gclid=CJqEoezNwcQCFQ8waQodaJYAXw
"In our daily lives, zazen provides us with a situation in which we can remove ourselves from external acivities, turn our activity inward, and face ourselves. Zazen is not about achieving some particular state of consciousness. Rather, it is about discovering who you are and what your life is."
Tenshin Roshi and Keizan Sensei co-wrote a book called Way of Zen
I find that "progress" varies on a day to day basis, but over time my mind will start to quiet down more easily. It is different for everyone. Attending seshin is a good way to make faster progress.
For me it is not really about controlling your mind, it is more about allowing your mind to quiet down and become still for extended periods. Someitmes your "mind" struggles against it, but over time it becomes more comfortable with the lack of a constant stream of discursive thought.
Hope this helps.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 24, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
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L that was a good response for HFCS and wonderful teaching comment by Ajahn Chan. He is the real deal; I used to have a small book by him where it clearly said on the book that it is never to be sold only given away.
Mike is also the real deal but HFCS wouldn't know that because he has no meditation context to draw from.
Mike you mention the ox herding pictures; I don't know much about them but except there is a picture in our Zen center of the herder sitting on the Ox facing the tail. I think it is titled sitting on the OX looking for the Ox.
Also Jinul (10th century korean) talks about the Ox herding pictures in the context of after sudden enlightenment comes gradual cultivation and working with deeply ingrained habits. Mike do you have any experience with the Ox herding teachings?
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Friend
climber
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Mar 24, 2015 - 03:16pm PT
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What the hell is a thoughtful thread like this doing on ST!
Great thoughts, thanks all. I especially liked this gem early on, from L:
The mind is a very constant and jealous warden. It takes extended periods of what would appear to be crushing boredom by today's standards to separate "you" from your ever vigilant mind.
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mar 24, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
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No problem Tami. Yes, progress for me is a greater ability to control and calm my mind.
I think that a major challenge in gauging meditation progress is that I encounter my mind every day. If you see a nephew once a year - you can immediately tell that he has grown. When you see him daily, it is more difficult to identify changes.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 24, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
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Deschamps said "I think that a major challenge in gauging meditation progress "
ZM Seung Sahn used to call this checking mind and advised not to do it. But it is very common in the beginning to want something in return for your effort. Almost all of the schools talk about this, The Heart Sutra ( a major buddhist sutra) says "no attainment with nothing to attain". The opposite of gauging your progress.
This is why it is so important to have a good teacher so they can point you in the correct direction. It is also very helpful to sit with a group at least once a week or more. Otherwise you end up making a practice about controling your mind and gauging your progress which no good teacher would ever advise.
I think almost all of the Kwan Um teachers are willing to teach through email and a quick google search of flagstaff indicates there are insight groups , zen groups and shambala groups ; so your set. go for it!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 24, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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psp, lol!
you've got your own thread now dedicated to meditation,
how cool is that?!
maybe now the mind thread can "concentrate" on the advances from
psychology and neuroscience?
Enjoy.
PS
Not the you asked but... I have NO
experience with the Ox herding teachings.
:(
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 24, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
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This is like the walk I took yesterday. If we substitute wind for cicadas and Black Mountain for the bull.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 24, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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http://www.mkzc.org/the-zen-oxherding-pictures-overview/
Here is a link to ox herding pictures with a cow girl. I tried to paste the article but the pictures didn't show.
It is interesting that the initial enlightenment (awakening) happens in the third picture but there are 7 more pictures after that.
Has anyone heard from Jan lately? I haven't seen any posts by her in a while.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Mar 24, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
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A good thread with great thoughts and ideas posted here.
Since we as individuals are all different, how one meditates will become your very own special experience as you challenge yourself, grow and create.
Deschamps mentioned 15 minutes. I think that would cover only the time you need to breathe and calm down before you even begin to meditate.
When Dan died spending and hour or two each morning saved me.
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meuw
Big Wall climber
Europe
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Mar 24, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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My husband bought a Tibetan Singing Bowl near a year ago and started to practice every day. First, I hesitated to feel some good influense, but even though I didn`t bother. As usual my husband had a meditation early in the morning sitting in the next room. After two weeks I`ve started to feel myself better in the morning. I was amazed!!! Moreover our relationship bacame better. After that I have been interested in such meditation and bought my personal singing bowl. Also we have separate bowl to 'prepare' energized water.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 25, 2015 - 10:51am PT
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I have pasted a comment recorded from Chinul a famous 11th century zen master from korea. Apparently he called himself an Ox Herder. He expounds about after you have your big moment on the cushion where "I" drops away; then the hard part starts of how do you actually act in the world and if you don't work really hard and pay attention to what you are doing the effects of your enlightenment will fade away.
Zen Master Seung Sahn used to say enlightenment was easy to get and hard to keep. He must have been referring to the same thing Chinul is talking about.
I know this is another quite long cut and paste and it is old style writing but check it out.
7. The practice of herding the ox
Question: Once the noumenon is awakened to, no further steps are involved. Why then do you posit subsequent cultivation, gradual permeation, and gradual perfection?
Chinul: Earlier the meaning of gradual cultivation subsequent to awakening was fully explained. But since your feeling of doubt persists, it seems that I will have to explain it again. Clear your minds and listen carefully!
For innumerable kalpas without beginning, up to the present time, ordinary men have passed between the five destinies, coming and going between birth and death. They obstinately cling to "self and, over a long period of time, their natures have become thoroughly permeated by false thoughts, inverted views, ignorance, and the habit‐energies. Although, coming into this life, they might suddenly awaken to the fact that their self‐nature is originally void and calm and no different from that of the Buddhas, these old habits are difficult to eliminate completely. Consequently, when they come into contact with either favorable or adverse objects, then anger and happiness or propriety or impropriety blaze forth: their adventitious defilements are no different from before. If they do not increase their efforts and apply their power through the help prajna, how will they ever be able to counteract ignorance and reach the place of great rest and repose? As it is said, "Although the person who has suddenly awakened is the same as the Buddhas, the habit‐energies which have built up over many lives are deep‐rooted. The wind ceases, but the waves still surge; the noumenon manifests, but thoughts still invade." Seon Master Ta‐hui Tsung‐kao said:
Often gifted people can break through this affair and achieve sudden awakening without expending a lot of strength. Then they relax and do not try to counteract the habit‐energies and deluded thoughts. Finally, after the passage of many days and months, they simply wander on as before and are unable to avoid samsara.20
So how could you neglect subsequent cultivation simply because of one moment of awakening? After awakening, you must be constantly on your guard. If deluded thoughts suddenly appear, do not follow after them― reduce them and reduce them again until you reach the unconditioned.21 Then and only then will your practice reach completion. This is the practice of herding the ox which all wise advisors in the world have practiced after awakening.
Nevertheless, although you must cultivate further, you have already awakened suddenly to the fact that deluded thoughts are originally void and the mind‐nature is originally pure. Thus you eliminate evil, but you eliminate without actually eliminating anything; you cultivate the wholesome, but you cultivate without really cultivating anything either. This is true cultivation and true elimination. For this reason it is said, "Although one prepares to cultivate the manifold supplementary practices, thoughtlessness is the origin of them all."22 Kuei‐feng summed up the distinction between the ideas of initial awakening and subsequent cultivation when he said:
He has the sudden awakening to the fact that his nature is originally free of defilement and he is originally in full possession of the non‐outflow wisdom‐nature which is no different from that of the Buddhas. To cultivate while relying on this awakening is called supreme vehicle Seon, or the pure Seon of the tathagatas. If thought‐moment after thought‐moment he continues to develop his training, then naturally he will gradually attain to hundreds of thousands of samadhis. This is the Seon which has been transmitted successively in the school of Bodhidharma.23
Hence sudden awakening and gradual cultivation are like the two wheels of a cart: neither one can be missing.
Some people do not realize that the nature of good and evil is void; they sit rigidly without moving and, like a rock crushing grass, repress both body and mind. To regard this as cultivation of the mind is a great delusion. For this reason it is said, cut off delusion thought after thought, but the thought which does this cutting is a brigand."24 If they could see that killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, and lying all arise from the nature, then their arising would be the same as their nonarising. At their source they are calm; why must they be cut off? As it is said, "Do not fear the arising of thoughts: only be concerned lest your awareness of them be tardy."25 It is also said, "If we are aware of a thought at the moment it arises, then through that awareness it will vanish."26
In the case of a person who has had an awakening, although he still has adventitious defilements, these have all been purified into cream. If he merely reflects on the fact that confusion is without basis, then all the flowers in the sky of this triple world are like smoke swirling in the wind and the six phantom sense‐objects are like ice melting in hot water. If thought‐moment after thought‐moment he continues to train in this manner, does not neglect to maintain his training, and keeps samadhi and prajna equally balanced, then lust and hatred will naturally fade away and compassion and wisdom will naturally increase in brightness; unwholesome actions will naturally cease and meritorious practices will naturally multiply. When defilements are exhausted, birth and death cease. When the subtle streams of defilement are forever cut off, the great wisdom of complete enlightenment exists brilliantly of itself. Then he will be able to manifest billions of transformation‐bodies in all the worlds of the ten directions following his inspiration and responding to the faculties of sentient beings. Like the moon in the nine empyrean which reflects in ten thousand pools of water, there is no limit to his responsiveness. He will be able to ferry across all sentient beings with whom he has affinities. He will be happy and free of worry. Such a person is called a Great Enlightened World Honored One.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 25, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
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Yesterday's commentary concerned MikeL's post and your response to it. It didn't concern meditation. Read some Chopra, Zukav. It seems to me their "way with words" are similar.
Daniel Dennett calls these "deepities."
HFCS......"The universe serves an abundance of acceptance."
FYI: This would be a koan to someone like yourself.
To those of us who have read copious amounts of Deepak Chopra and Gary Zukav and Jack Kornfield and Pema Chodron and Ajahn Chah and Lao Tzu and The Bhagavad Gita and Ramana Maharshi, etc., this isn't a "deepitiy", it's just a highway sign on the road of life. Perhaps a direction. Perhaps a reminder. But not the great mystery you're making it out to be.
Let me put it to you in words your scientific mind/brain can comprehend: It's a type of language, the way English, Sanskrit, Fortran and Cobol are types of languages.
Once you're versed in any one of them, you start to "get it". You don't even have to be well-versed in this sort of language though, just slightly familiar. From the satirical inflections of your posts, my guess is that you're not even "slightly familiar".
I mean absolutely no disrespect here. You pride yourself on your "scientific mind/brain" orientation, and that's well and good for those arenas where science is the ringmaster. But as we're discovering more and more each day, those arenas of strict empirical evidence are shrinking. And a stubborn adherence to any dogma leaves one myopic at best...legally blind at worst.
You might be legally blind where meditation is concerned...your comments to PSPalsoPP imply just such a condition.
Now don't get me wrong! You're a smart cookie, HFCS, and your posts are just as smart. And witty, too. Really, really witty. I think it's just great you've come over from your laboratory on the "What is Mind" thread and dipped your antiseptic rubber-souled shoes into the mossy, stone-lined creek of a discussion about meditation. Really, I think it's great. I hope you have fun.
The universe might even serve you up an abundance of acceptance while you're here. Who knows?
PS. Have you read any of Rick Hanson's work? Buddha's Brain?
maybe now the mind thread can "concentrate" on the advances from
psychology and neuroscience?
He weaves the psychology and neuroscience threads together nicely. And he teaches meditation. As you would say: LOL!
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:32am PT
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HFCS,
You are absolutely hysterical!
Just what I needed on this foggy soggy gray day.
Many thanks for making me smile.
Hope you have an immortally balanced day.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:42am PT
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Ya know,
We got places with sun out here, angstroms or nirvana, pick your poison.
Just sayin' ....
Namaste 'n stuff
Quarks too...
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 26, 2015 - 06:04am PT
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Read my first koan today
Didn't know what a koan was
Never was much into this stuff
Apparently I'm like the overflowing cup of tea
I get that I'm as full of bad ideas and unable hear much else
Like some of the people I have known and judged harshly for it
Thinking I know everything while knowing nothing at all
Not a good student and I'm not sure if Zen Buddhism is for me
Methinks I'm too bewildered for enlightenment
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Mar 26, 2015 - 06:28am PT
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i broke my back recently
and the injury stabs me
awake every night with
pangs of pain so i get up
and stretch.
alone, next to the fire,
with the night-birds
echoing outside.
i built a pine
vessel with an adjustable
volume (threaded rods
that move the walls in / out)
and i get into this pine box
every morning for my stretch
and adjust
the walls inward (i have push / pull
wingnuts within the box)
my physical and mental stretch
consists of getting as small as i can.
each day i get smaller,
as i train my physique and
mental universe to shrink.
so the walls come closer.
and closer.
and closer.
until, one day,
i.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 26, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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We got places with sun out here, angstroms or nirvana, pick your poison.
Lol Jay!
You have no idea how much I've been wishing I was in the Land of the Long Drought!
The yearning for Cali is a prime motivator for some of my deepest meditations. :-)
However, as fortune would have it...and enough focused meditation, perhaps...I'm flying out later this morning for Sarasota FL, to spend a long weekend at the condo of good friends, on beautiful Siesta Key.
Kayaking, SUPping, and running on a white sandy beach each morning beneath a happy sun...yep, it's a dirty job, but somebody gotta do it! :-)
Namaste to you, friend!
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Mar 26, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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Bushman:
Given your comment: "Methinks I'm too bewildered for enlightenment," me thinks you are now embarked on the path toward finding the ox.
Acknowledgment of ignorance is a profound statement of awakening.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 26, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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Enlightened if you do, enlightened if you don't.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 26, 2015 - 03:22pm PT
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Namaste dear L!
Say hi to the manatees!
I'm actually in the red rock desert of Moab most of the time, these days, not Cal. If you need a refresher of desert sand we have it here!
SUP too!
Ah but what times we all had in the cal sand days though....
What is the sound of one Koan Quaffing?
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:38am PT
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Now that's a photo to bring back some fabulous memories!
Are you doing any guiding out there?
One Koan quaffing?
A turtle dove, of course.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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PHow do 'you' meditate?
When I was a teenager I had an altercation with my dad (one of many) and hitchhiked away from home. I ended up living on a commune for several months and learned some meditation from a man who had for awhile been a Hare Krishna. He gave me a copy of the Bhagavad-Gita
to read and I actually read quite a bit of it. This was when I was around 15 and was completely lost in the direction that my life would go and where I was headed.
I was really open to suggestion back then and it was quite a bit easier for me to try new things. The man (he gave himself the nickname of Lucifer by the way) taught me to meditate by sitting with the knees crossed on a mat, with arms to the side, and with thumb and forefinger almost touching. I was to say Om Mani Padme Om or just Om with my eyes closed and focus on something in front me in my mind's eye.
I don't remember much else about the experience, but looking back I'm probably damn lucky I did not end up in some kind of Manson style cult, yet I think that red flags would've probably gone up in my head immediately if that was the case. Still, I lived on that commune for several months before I was kicked out for acting like an adolescent. They were planning to migrate and start a pot farm in Washington.
Of course my lifestyle is about 180° from that lifestyle (the hippie lifestyle) today. But even though I think I'm an atheist, I am toying with the idea of meditating again because the level of stress from my business has been causing me some health issues.
1. Does anyone have any suggestions about how I should go about learning to meditate again?
2. Was what I was taught back then anything close to how I should be doing it?
3. What are some suggested readings on teaching myself meditation?
4. I am extremely averse to any kind of one-on-one with a guru because I do not like taking orders and won't from anyone (except reluctantly from my wife)
I'll admit it, I'm whipped.
5. What techniques do some of you here on the thread use to meditate?
-bushman
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
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Bushman, I will try to help you by relating your questions to my experiences. I don't think there is one certain or best way to approach the subject but I think others might say you are not doing it right or you should try their method. I don't find these kind of approaches very useful to anyone but the giver's ego.
1. Does anyone have any suggestions about how I should go about learning to meditate again?
I think that anyone who has gotten anything useful would have suggestions, especially beginners. It is human nature to want to tell or teach something you found that was of value to you. As you progress, you realize that the value was to you and that you discovered it and that it is better for an individual to discover truths for themselves than to merely try to discern them from another person's perspective.
2. Was what I was taught back then anything close to how I should be doing it?
You have the memory of that event. Did it resonate with you then? Does it resonate with you now?. Other than those two questions, I don't think there is a way you "should" be doing it.
3. What are some suggested readings on teaching myself meditation.
4. I am extremely averse to any kind of one-on-one with a guru because I do not like taking orders and won't from anyone (except reluctantly from my wife).
I'll admit it, I'm whipped
I'm putting these two questions together because I think they are related. I am with you on #4 and I have never gurued-up for anything. And I do respect my wife and her opinions more than most. she is probably as close to me as anyone, if not more. As for suggested reading, I think there is an element of truth in anything you read but discernment is necessary to discover it and it must resonate with the truth that your self finds evident.
5. What techniques do some of you here on the thread use to meditate?
I have tried a lot of things over the years with mixed results. The best stuff for me has been totally spontaneous discoveries that I found just worked really well for the intention I went forth with.
Which brings me back to my first assertion in this thread.
Someone will probably say that my ideas are not what the Buddhists taught, and that is correct. I am not Buddhist or do I want to be a Buddhist, so why would I follow that path. Enlightenment is a concept that escapes even Buddhists, and enlightenment is not the word I would choose to describe my intentions.
I hope this makes sense and is helpful in your quest, Bushman.
Peace Out.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Thanks Ojai Alex and Wayno,
1. What should I meditate on; idea, thought, nothing, etc.?
2. How do I go about not thinking about other things while I'm meditating?
3. For how long and how often do I meditate?
I know these questions might sound stupid coming from an old one time hippie and climber, oh well.
-bushman
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 05:30pm PT
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But even though I think I'm an atheist, I am toying with the idea of meditating again because the level of stress from my business has been causing me some health issues.
So, at this point you are just toying with the idea. You are pretty sure the level of stress from your avocation is causing ill health. Maybe "meditation" would help, but you don't know how to do it. If you look at it that way, you might be adding some stress to the equation of how to deal with stress. I think the ability to relive stress through meditation is so over-rated. It can become a crutch just like anything that stops you from actually eliminating the stress. You can get to a relaxed state of mind where the everyday stresses of life are insignificant but that doesn't get rid of the cause of your stress and only gives you a vacation of sorts.
And what does you thinking you are an atheist have to do with your question?
Scientists have measured brainwave activity of people in various meditative states and have come up with some interesting correlations. States of mind are associated with vibratory levels of brainwave activity. The first or Alpha state covers a certain range of frequencies and is correlated with that sense of well-being and relaxation without effort of focus, but still aware of sensory input and still quite conscious. This is the easiest state to achieve and there are many ways to become proficient at getting there. I first achieved this spontaneously when there was a need and since then, I have discovered several ways to achieve that.
I think the best thing to do first is make the decision to give an honest try and set aside time and be patient with whatever method you try. Be sincere, patient, and humble and avoid selfish reflection. Be the observer and let go of attachment to any thoughts that arise. You can't stop your mind from thinking, but you can create a perspective where the thoughts just come and go and sooner or later you are not even paying attention anymore. You have the ability to create this way of observing yourself without attachment. Just to it and do it again until it is just natural. Who is in charge in there, anyway?
As you get better you can go deeper to the point where you think you fell asleep and maybe you did or maybe something else happened. Now you are at the level of lucid dreaming and astral travel but that isn't something I would talk about on this forum.
edit- For curiosity sake I looked up meditate in the dictionary. Modern common usage has altered it original meaning. It said:
To reflect upon; contemplate.
contemplate:
to ponder or consider thoughtfully.
That is why I call what I do Stillness. "Meditation" doesn't really describe what I am doing, although it can be a part of it. The second definition for contemplate is to intend or anticipate and that is closer to what I have in mind.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 27, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
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Bushman
Sounds like you want to reduce your stress levels and try meditation to help. It can probably help to a certain degree to treat the symptom.
It is probably better suited for exposing the cause of stress and helping you look right at stress , actually be stress and laugh at it's impermanence and observe how it is constructed. That is more the intention of buddhist style sitting.
Some people find mantras helpful if they have very busy minds lots of non stop thinking (probably good for Tvash and HFCS). Tibetan Tonglong style (spelling) is good if you have alot of anger ; you basically wish great joy and happyness to those you are disliking on the out breath, even yourself, and you take away their pain on the in breath it is very helpful for shutting down the negative narrative.
There are many styles; I knew a women who was about to start a 100 day solo silent sitting retreat. she had very strong opinions; the day before the retreat was to start the zen master gave her a large jar of mung beans and told her to chant a long 30 minute chant that is very intricate and detailed 100 times for every bean ( in other words 12 hrs of chanting for 100 days)
If you can find a good teacher in your area it can be very helpful; think of it like you get to go bouldering with Lynn Hill every once and while. It can be helpful to get some pointers from someone that has been down the road.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 27, 2015 - 08:21pm PT
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think of it like you get to go bouldering with Lynn Hill every once and while
I thought meditation guides one away from depression??
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 27, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
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Don't ever think that spirituality and atheism are opposed.
And L, yes I'm guiding.
Yesterday I comingled guiding with my special Ed background and took fifteen special needs kids climbing, it was a blast! And clearly a (very) active meditation!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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Don't ever think that spirituality and atheism are opposed.
Agreed. But in some people's minds, they are on opposite sides of a spectrum. Why or how? I'm not sure.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 27, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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Ok,
Thanks everyone.
I might leave a few peices in the haul bag for later on the route.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 27, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
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O.K. Bushman, I like your style. Here is a simple technique i learned recently. It really doesn't have a name but it came from a reliable source.
Just lay down in a comfortable quiet place where you can be undisturbed for an hour. It may happen for you quicker, but give yourself an honest hour. You deserve it. Just lie there and try to relax. What is the fist thing you encounter in your mind that won't let you just relax and let go. It is you. Why would you want you not to relax. O.K. Let that pass. Just count your breaths. Don't try to take a deep one or let it out slow or whatever. just do the most natural and comfortable breaths. Count ten breaths and just observe each breath without making a value judgement as compared to another breath. You will notice that your breathing changes with it's own volition. This is also you. Count to ten and then start again. It is a process that is comparable to our existence. At some point you will just stop counting and you might find yourself in a pleasant effortless state. If not go back to counting. Whatever you do, don't take it to the point of frustration so that you just give up. It is possible to come back at a better time and try again anew.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 28, 2015 - 01:00am PT
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DesChamps:
I can’t help but like what Tami says. I tend to like everything she says.
Oh, my friend, it is all up to you. You define your own success. If it eases your ills or allow you some semblance of peace, then you are the better for it.
This thing about getting a hold of your mind is useful, but slippery. I would think that anyone who wants to learn more about who and what they are, is helping themself.
I want you to know that we are all human, and we all have our burdens to bear. Not one of us is perfect. Everything is relative. Figure out what works for you, what motivate you, what turns you loose, and dig into that. Try to relax. You can do no wrong, . . . not really. Everyone really loves you.
If it helps, mostly the rest of us are in the same hell. It’s just that other people have different furniture than we do.
PSP PP:
I’m in late grading the semester and setting-up for a new course. Apologies.
I have no teaching using the 10 pictures, but I find them fully explanative. Just like Jonah and the Whale. Fall into hopelessness for a while until you believe it, and then things will look so different when you come out of it. I think you will then walk a few inches off the ground. (I did.) But you must come to face hopelessness, or some abyss. Then you begin to see, well, . . . see what cannot be articulated or stipulated.
There is this “tearing away from conventional life” that is so disturbing. One yogi said he feels like a vampire, walking in the world alone.
Facing an emptiness of understanding means becoming very lonely. It’s an arduous path: you destroy yourself at each and every turn. You feel sad through it all. You’re killing yourself. You give up a piece of yourself every day . . . .
Think about what immolation is like. I don’t mean to preach here, but it is immensely lonely. No ground under your feet, no real friendships like you think of them, nothing to claim is important or worth doing, just becoming aware of a dream in a land of dreamers.
. . . adventitious defilements. . . .
I have to say, . . . at first the use of the world “adventitious” was a term that I thought that Buddhists got hung up on, and I didn’t get it.
“Adventitious” means that thoughts have their own lives and energy. They find spaces and fill them, and they spawn yarns. To sit and watch them is a remarkable experience. It’s like sugar plum fairies dancing on snow. They are mesmerizing and wondrous. But sadly, they are not real. But they seem completely so. Delicious, actually. You can really get into them . . . :-) . . . I mean, in the most seductive ways. (Use your most sinful imagination here.) It’s easy to see how Mara protects her domain. She has every weapon possible. Name that sinful pleasure that you love. She is there beckoning you . . . “come, be with me.”
Ugh. Why don’t we just kill ourselves?
And slowly but surely, that’s what we do . . . . piece by piece. We come to realize all the lies that we accepted. Takes a while. In the end, we end up with nothing . . . not even the ‘we.’ Everything but everything is unresolvable, ambiguous, impossible to describe and explain. There is no ground.
I feel like a leaf in a stream. The more I look, the less I can explain. Yet, . . . everything seems completely right, . . . just-as-it-is.
. . . they sit rigidly without moving and, like a rock crushing grass, . . .
Just a wonderful expression.
Bushman:
Find a place and time to relax regularly. In those times, let go of everything. . . after a while, to include letting-go. Whatever that might look like for you, give it a try. And allow yourself to seek some refuge in it. Hide out. Make it your time for yourself, and guard it against others and things that threaten it. Take some time to relax in your life, really relax. What would that look like for you? Really. Give that a try, and dedicate some commitment to it. Then settle in. See what that does for you. You are your best guru. But be honest, and be diligent. Make a decision, and then follow through. Then once you’ve gotten some mileage under your belt, . . . then You Say. You make your decision, and you follow through. You are on your own. You always are. Try to remember no one knows more about your awareness and consciousness than you do. (How could they possibly?)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 28, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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Just right now my wife says lets get the family in a sit...
that we all need to sit and
<.><.>
>>O<<
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 28, 2015 - 07:45am PT
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I meditated this morning
And pushed the world away
And saw myself
With a pork pie hat and horned rim glasses
Joking with a raven
About all the malarkey
Then my self was briefly quiet
And I heard the world again
As it sang to me
'The Song in the Wood'
There is a song in the wood
And it calls for me and you
There is a song in the wood
And the dove coos
There is a song in the wood
And the jay cries
And the sparrow chirps
As the raven flies
There is a song in the wood
And the birds sing
But not for me and you
There is a song in the wood
If you can hear it softly
As the wind blows
-bushman
Thanks Wayno
I hear you MikeL
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 28, 2015 - 10:42am PT
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A lot of good stuff here. This is an excellent thread.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Mar 29, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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I've meditated (transcendental meditation as taught by Maharishi Maheshi Yogi) twice a day for 45+ years.
Recently focused upon the unanswerable question:
"What is the source of my thoughts?"
Meaning this; I observe that thoughts arise in an unending procession; they seemingly arise from within me and from an "unconscious" or pre-conscious level before reaching a level where thoughts take a form which I can perceive them in a knowable and conscious form. So, what is the preconscious and unknowable fountain from which my thoughts arise?
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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'K Now'
As I continued counting my breaths and stopping and starting again with images flowing in and out and the sounds of swishing which I realized was my breath, and the bees buzzing, and the pleasing sounds of the birds though interrupted by an airplane. I was counting and breathing again when a stage appeared with dancers in many bright colors of mostly yellow, orange, red, pink, purple, blue, turquoise, and white. They turned into elephants
and blue Krishna appeared hip-hop style dancing to pop Hindu music which was so was pleasing to the mind and the eye that I wanted it to go on and on but I knew it would not.
I knew I could not stay there watching it so I stopped and closed my minds eye again and everything went black.
And then like lightning flashing there was a giant blue yeti type beast in bright attire with a giant black mace which he smashed down in front of me and everything went black again and I knew my meditation was over. I definitely fell asleep briefly as you probably guessed by now, still, what an amazing dream.
Might have something to do with watching Slum Dog Millionaire again last night.
I love that movie. I may have been many things in life but I guess I'm just another Chai Wallah in my mind.
Could it be that apparitions such as Jesus, Krishna, and Mara are but aspects of our subconscious revealed to the conscious mind through deep meditation, while dreaming, or during times of extreme mental and physical duress?
-Bushman
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 29, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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Attempts to explain experience are fraught with problems if you’re trying to be precise or complete. I don’t think what experience is, can be explained. Of course you can spin yarns, but I’d suggest that if we can’t even say what experience is, then we may be unable to explain how it “works.”
I stopped and closed my minds eye again and everything went black.
That has never happened to me, that I can remember—or not. Even after I am put “out” by an anesthesiologist, there is still consciousness. The drugs simply bring amnesia. I’ve woken up in a procedure, knew it, and then later went back under. When I’ve sat in absolute darkness in contemplation with my eyes open, it’s gotten so bright at times that I felt compelled to close my eyes. In a situation of complete silence, you still hear a background hum or pitch.
Consciousness cannot be turned off. (It just seems that way, imaginatively.)
We have been endlessly drawn to explaining how things work (or what things are) because we are endlessly (and always) engaged with reality. Consciousness and reality are always present with each other. It has never been otherwise: mise en abyme.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 29, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
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Mike,
When I was breathing and counting during meditation, after I heard the bees and the birds, I had dozed off and was dreaming from that point on. The Krishna and the Yeti Creature in my dream happened it seems in only split seconds. When I realized I was asleep and dreaming while trying to meditate I felt compelled to write down my vivid impressions. Fact is, I have some pretty 'out there' dreams on a regular basis and often am able to wake myself from undesired dreams when situations become overwhelming or extremely uncomfortable. It's always interesting when I find myself in that moment in a dream where I realize I'm dreaming and simply wake myself with a memory of whatever crisis befell me to precipitate my having to wake myself up.
In this particular dream about Krishna the images were so rapid that the black between scenes was just that, black. I don't recall dreaming the color black before though, and come to think of it, it is probably unusual. I do think of my sleeping state as dark and memories of my childhood are dark and foggy in my thoughts. I really don't believe I am unique in this respect, although my experiences are uniquely my own as are those experiences, dreams, and memories of each of us.
Anyway, back to the topic of meditation where I'm a noob and an amateur, pardon the diversion.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 29, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
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Consciousness cannot be turned off.
It's impossible to turn off.
It's never been done ever.
Consciousness is life itself of which life comes from life.
Consciousness is eternal (anti-material) and it's source is God himself .....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 30, 2015 - 02:28am PT
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'Impetuous Moi'
In days of yore and cow pies deep,
The birds went moo,
And the cows cheep cheep,
N'er being born of man or dog,
I carved myself out from a log,
And like the ape man swung from trees,
Where all the the birds and all the bees,
Knew Mother Nature's price was steep,
She dreamt herself up in her sleep,
And taught to me this simple tool,
Man who spin yarn learn to pull,
Wool over your eyes while counting sheep.
And never forget this simple rule,
Don't take one's self imperiously,
Nor suffer fools too seriously.
-bushman
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:34am PT
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He said: The problem with doing your own thing is you only do what you like and you don't do what you don't like so it becomes a ego oriented practice which ends up having the opposite intention of buddhist meditation ie. Vipassana or zen or tibetan; and consequently has very limited value in creating a space where true insight can happen.
He replied: That sounds a bit dogmatic to me, although that is certainly one way to look at it.
This is a great thread and I don't want to introject any bad mojo, but greasing this squeaky wheel is worth a few words.
As mentioned, meditation is NOT philosophical. The "What is Mind?" thread is. So IMO it's good to leave that stuff over there.
That much said, meditation, however one practices (I don't say, "however you practice it," because most of the time the practice chooses you), must be one of the most slippery adventures a human can ever experience. The reasons there are many various types of practice is that it is not one-size-fits-all, though as someone mentioned, the secular practices like that taught by John Zinn ("The Full Catastrophe" is a must-read) reach across all types.
Point is, the most suitable practice for a given person depends on your nature and learning style and physical makeup. In my experience, a super ascetic, no frills practice like Renzai Zen is far too stark and gnarly for most people. For others, Eastern-centric approaches will have too many cultural accretions to feel right. You need to experiment and see what is possible. Vapassana is a great practice for many.
One of the chief challenges is to avoid the trap - and no one can completely - of letting your ego direct the practice with ideas about "doing it my way," what they call "cowboying" the practice. This come from the particularly American notion that "I don't need no stinking teacher," and that since (in this view) it is all subjective anyhow, "one way to look at it" (as I quoted above) is always the equal of any other way. So don't tell me I need to do it this way or that way because you don't know.
We easily can see how stubborn and self/ego reliant this is. Most likely the fear is that the only way to do it differently is to abandon ones autonomy and hand it over to some guru. This is largely untrue, though there are many pitfalls with any practice - for example, Zen has a high rate of drunkenness and profligate behavior.
No one who has been around meditation for long will deny that there many objective truths per the practice. For example, without training, our attention will glom onto whatever idea, feeling, memory, impulse etc. that has the greatest and most immediate charge. Or the fact that the mind follows the body and that good breathing is a proven way to get the mind to settle - ergo the need to keep your spine straight so your diaphragm is not compressed making breathing difficult. These and many other little instructional tools are helpful and are common stuff taught by competent teachers - along with loads of other things, none of which require beliefs.
What's more, as Sasaki Roshi once told me, it's easier to get a bonfire with many logs. We have all experienced this, how it's easier by and large to work out in a gym with people or practice yoga with a group, just to get the juices flowing. Private practice, in total solitude, is invaluable, and part of the whole deal, but it's not the whole deal. We all need course correction most of the way, as well as expert instruction, as is the case in any viable field of study, perhaps moreso with a subject so slippery and open to distortions as our meditation adventures.
So we can say without question that seeing instruction and working in a group - at least some of the time - is not merely "one way to look at it," but is the shortest road to Rome. The only people who ever insist differently are those who have never done the intense group retreats, which have and will always be an essential part of serious practice, providing crucial material not open to the "cowboy."
Lastly, the idea that a dedicated meditation practice is some kind of fu-fu hot tub New Agey fluff jive we do in our down time is not something that squares with our experience. At all. A serious meditation retreat is a challenging physical and psychological adventure and is likely the most intense thing you will experience for a good long time. None of this is easy, that's why we normally seek all the help we can get, including sound teachers and fellow adventurers to walk the path together.
JL
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 30, 2015 - 07:45am PT
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Just found this very short video by Alan Watts, one of the key people in bringing meditation to the west.
I worked with some of his meditation practices in the early '90s with phenomenal results.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 30, 2015 - 08:06am PT
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JL,
For now I shall continue the simple breathing and counting meditation that was suggested to me here because it is having the desired effect of quieting the mind and calming the body which is what I set out to do in the first place.
As per yours and others suggestions I don't have a response, except to say point taken, and that I will try to be open minded about the options available to me as I try to learn what the sieve of my rebellious character would let through for me to contemplate. But then you obviously know about that little flaw.
-bushman
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 30, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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'On Foolishness'
The time has come to put to rest,
My foolish ways,
I think it best,
Notwithstanding wastefulness,
Regretting all distastefulness,
Habitually intuitively,
I'll put the willful pen to rest,
To clear the mind of useless clutter,
And words unwise my lips to utter.
-bushman
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 30, 2015 - 11:39am PT
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You meditators have a nice thread here. I enjoy reading the posts. Good to see Largo joining in.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 30, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
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Lots of good material here so far.
Largo came closest to articulating the biggest question for me in relation to this thread: What is the objective or intention associated with pursuing meditation?
People approach the topic from such different experiences, with different unmet needs, with different ideals and values and preferences, and different hopes/expectations, that a preliminary discussion ends up with a soup of interesting material, a sort of "brain storm" of notes, waiting to be organized or synthesized into a larger framework that encompasses the variety of perspectives.
Here's an initial stab in that organizational direction (not sure how to make hierarchical bullets here):
Why Meditate?
* What needs does it satisfy
** Acceptance - when coupled with a peer group or authority figure that values meditation
** Mental/Emotional issues
*** Anxiety, Fear
*** Unquiet mind, inability to let go of the past or future and focus on the present
** Relief from pain
*** Momentary distraction
*** Awareness, identifying sources of pain to enable long-term resolution
** Pleasure
*** Beauty of breathing, the flow of blood through our veins, and perceiving the small miracles of life
*** Beauty of micro and macro objects and concepts and ideas around us
** Spiritual connection and perception
*** Part of a greater whole
*** Awareness of ideas, concepts, and objects beyond our mundane conception
What is Meditation?
* Perceptions/experiences while in a meditative state
** Emotional
** Intellectual
** Physical
** Spiritual
* Meditation vs. Numbing and Distraction
** Direction/focus of observation and perception
*** No Focus
Absence/vacuous nihilist existence
Passive observation of external stimuli, and passive observation of our emotional/spiritual/physical/intellectual reactions to those external stimuli
*** Inward - awareness of signals from the physical, emotional, spiritual, and intellectual portions of ourselves, guided by probing questions and directed thought
*** Outward - awareness of the myriad sights/sounds/smells/textures and other sensory input we receive in the present moment; awareness of our being in relation to our friends and family, our community, our world, our universe
** Awareness and Signals
*** Fixation on signals that generate pain, reducing presence and awareness
*** Can't process all signals... prioritize!
*** "Reducing the volume" of loud external signals
Activities/situations that demand full focus, blocking other painful signals (which is liberating), but leaving no room for meditation
Activities/situations that create space for contemplation
Methods/Practices of Meditation
* Common themes/components of meditative practices
** Remove distractions (reduce "loud" external and internal signals, enabling quieter signals to be heard)
*** isolation from communication with others
*** isolation from work and family responsibilities, TV, games, etc.
** Increase perception of "quiet" external and internal signals
* Rituals - perceptual anchors to achieve a desired mental state
** sights
*** fire
*** fixed images
** sounds
*** bells, chimes
*** om/aum
** smells
*** incense
** tactile
*** clay/pottery
*** gardening
*** walking barefoot at the beach
** repetitive actions
*** breathing exercises, yoga
*** tai chi, martial arts
*** running, walking, hiking, swimming, biking
** contemplative motions: while body in rest between periods of intensely focused activity (rock/ice climbing - belaying; surfing - waiting)
** Specific practices designed to reconcile internal conflicts between intellect, emotions, and body
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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NutJob: it doesn't need to be that complicated. But you illustrate a point that many people really have no actual experience with meditation but for some reason think they can lead them selves in a meditation practice.
In 2015 there are many very good resources out there and vipassana centers has exploded (imo due to it's removing alot of the asian cultural trimmings).
So rather than creating an organizational treatise on how and why to take up fishing just go find a good fishing teacher and group.
Probably a better question would be how do you know they are a good teacher when you know almost nothing of the subject?
Luckily with the internet you can get access to dharma talks and know most of the gossip about almost any teacher or group.
You do have to be careful of bad teachers ; self appointed teachers , teachers that are abusive etc.. One of the biggest problems teachers have is people put them on pedestals and become attached to the teacher and the practice forms rather than just using them to help them live a more compassionate life.
Buddhist meditation practice is based with compassion.
Typically first time practitioners start with what is in it for me and if you practice diligently with proper guidance it will grow to where you only practice for others.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 30, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
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That was straight up informative, PSP.
I'm glad to know the end game for some is more the we would want for just ourselves.
Typically first time practitioners start with what is in it for me and if you practice diligently with proper guidance it will grow to where you only practice for others.
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EP
Trad climber
Way Out There
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Mar 31, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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You going to see Dark Star Orchestra April 12th?
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Mar 31, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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What is the objective or intention associated with pursuing meditation?
An interesting question which many minds (like your own) have no doubt pondered over the millennia.
The funny thing is, I have a strange sense that it isn't a person's "mind" that chooses to pursue meditation. It's something deeper within their being.
My own experience was this:
1. Hearing about meditation and all the "good" things it was supposed to do for me
2. Thinking about meditation as the flavor of the month for stress/anxiety relief
3. Attempting to "meditate" by sitting cross-legged on the floor and thinking about things
4. Lying down and attempting to "meditate" by thinking about things...and falling asleep
5. Giving up after 3 days out of sheer boredom and lack of anything but a sore derrière.
Two months later I was at a retreat called The Excellerated Business School for Entrepreneurs in Hawai'i. We began the program with a group meditation, lead by a man who'd worked closely with Alan Watts, one of the guys famous for bringing mediation to the west.
The mediation he had us do was something Alan had been taught by the Aboriginals of Australia, and a method of meditating totally foreign to me. We stood across from a partner with our eyes closed holding hands, and basically imagined sending positive energy out into the room.
It was the silliest, most idiotic thing I'd ever done.
After about 5 minutes of going along with this lunacy, I decided to open my eyes and look around. But before I could lift an eyelid, I was hit by a wave of such intense energy, I think I would've fallen over if my partner Wallace hadn't been holding my hands.
I have never experienced anything like this before or since. Although my eyes were tightly closed, my inner vision was filled with radiating blue light...the color you see around dolphins twenty feet beneath the surface of the ocean. Beautiful beyond words, iridescent, shimmering blue.
And I was filled with euphoria. Unspeakable euphoria. Only there wasn't an "I" any more. I was everywhere and everything. I wasn't standing in a conference room on the Big Island of Hawai'i holding my friend's hand...I was the air that filled the room and the island that held the Kona Surf Resort and I was my friend, too. And all the other people in the room, and the ocean outside the door.
And I was in love with all of it. And all of it was in love with me.
Only there really wasn't a "me", just an awareness experiencing the whole thing.
I came back from this "awareness" to find the entire group of 23 meditators standing in a circle staring at me. The leader of the meditation wanted to know what just happened. I didn't know what just happened, all I knew was that my shirt was wet from tears of ecstasy, and my partner Wallace had tears running down his face and onto his shirt, too. He'd "gotten it" vicariously from me, he said.
I didn't know what happened, but I was high from it for three days. I understood the ocean and the Earth and life itself in ways I can't explain. It was all so good, and everything was as it was meant to be, this I knew.
And then the beatific feeling began to fade, as did the intense knowingness, and three days later I was just me again, a participant at a business retreat in Hawai'i.
Not long after that experience, I heard about the 10-day Vipassana meditation course in North Fork, California. I had no idea what it entailed, but I signed up for the very next one.
The Vipassana course taught me to actually meditate, and though I haven't found the Blue Light again, I've experienced some pretty profound states of being on my meditation cushion. As far as an objective or intention where meditation is concerned, I feel my mind is only the travel agent that gets my airfare and rental car booked. My mind is not the "awareness" that has decided it's time to go on the trip.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Mar 31, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
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L just took a stab at answering this question:
"What is the objective or intention associated with pursuing meditation?"
Here is my answer.
In 1969 at age 18 I read Phillip Kapleau's "Three Pillars of Zen" which described the objective of Zen mediation as reaching "satori" or "enlightenment." The Buddha achieved "enlightenment" and then shared his experience and knowledge with the word. Eureka, the birth of Buddhism itself.
Reading this book awakened in me the possibility that human beings were capable of reaching enlightenment by practice of meditation.
I did not know if this was true or not; however, I decided I wanted to achieve enlightenment if that was possible for me. The message was that mediation was the path to enlightenment; ergo I decided I wanted to spend this lifetime meditating regularly until I either died trying to obtain enlightenment or in fact obtained same. I viewed this as a worthy pursuit and my life's work.
It's now 2015 and my views have developed. Meditation has been integral to my life and evolution of my world view. I no longer believe I will ever be one wit more enlightened than I am today; yet I happily and gladly will continue my meditation until the day I die.
You can purchase this book at Amazon for $2.64. It's the only Zen book you will ever need to read.
http://www.amazon.com/Three-Pillars-Anniversary-Updated-Revised/dp/B0076LTS22/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427832926&sr=1-2&keywords=three+pillars+of+zen
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I second the thought per the "Three Pillars."
My first zen instructor, who only spoke Japanese, said he only knew the Heart Sutra, and never read any other Zen lit. Many modern practitioners are doing the practice with NO texts at all, just feedback from the teacher and peers, and the practice.
Wonderful story, L.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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NutAgain!: What is the objective or intention associated with pursuing meditation?
My friend, most words in your question points to issues that can liberate you. My response to each and every one would be “Mu.”
The best thing about your statement is that it is a question. Allow that to blossom, and follow where it takes you. I would not try to answer the question, if I were your advisor, for that will only give rise to conceptualizations (your post lists many). Instead, use the question as an energy source, as an impetus. If you aren’t looking specifically for answers, then you are likely to be open and sensitive to what you will stumble across.
In business and the social sciences, we call this kind of approach “action learning,” “action research,” or “action science.” The notion is different than typical research methods, which tend to plan everything out for every step and then execute the steps until completed. Action research, on the other hand, is systematic mucking around. One first has a question, then there is some data collection, but data collection and analysis usually suggests new questions, which entail different data collection and analysis, and so on. Visualize peeling an onion, but at every layer, one comes to see a different issue that calls for a new formulated question. It’s not the kind of research that can be readily published in the journals (too messy), but it tends to be social, participative, and some argue more relevant and pragmatic. It is also very empirical because theories tend to be subordinated and de-emphasized when compared to pure findings. Last it relies heavily on self-reflection because the real research instrument is YOU, the recognition of which is changing with every iteration. Now you’re into a negative feedback loop, one that is centrifugal rather than centripetal: instead of zeroing in on a final answer or some final essence, it increasingly throws you out farther and farther away from what you think you know and can pin down.
With all that said, I’ll make some loose predictions of your experiences. First of all, I think you will find no final answers. Second, you become aware of NOT fewer and fewer questions, but more and more questions. There are zillions of questions, none of which can finally be answered. (Certainly not certainly.) From this, questioning will become less and less burning. Conceptually, you come to find that you don’t really need to have questions, much less answers. You begin to see situations as simply complex sets of causes and conditions.
There are no end states that you finally get to. There is no achievement. It’s not about doing anything. This thing about meditation is about being . . . just being. Action may be character (said F. Scott Fitzgerald), but I think you’ll find at the end of the day that action and achievement are just running around in circles.
In Satsangs, when no one has a question for a teacher, a teacher will either feel that there is something that needs to be said, or most often he or she will say nothing at all, and long periods of silence will ensue. I have come to find those the very best times with my teacher and my peers. It’s delicious. The silence is deafening, the moment of here-and-now is pregnant with infinite openness, and there is sense of immediacy floating all around me. And, if you will, Nothing is going on.
I am so surprised that most people can’t stand to be still or quiet with one another. They appear to lack reserve, aplomb, dignity, calm, confidence, ease, savoir faire, grace, repose, insouciance, nonchalance.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Do not trust words. Trust emotions or instincts. They self-validate in stronger ways. It’s difficult to doubt an emotion or an instinct. The same can’t be said for words or thinking.
Meditation is like that.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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If someone is starting meditation, and wishes a fairly culture-neutral perspective on the practice, one might try Jon Kabat-Zinn or Tara Brach on meditation. There is quite a bit of information available on YouTube.
I began meditating at 13. The difference between meditation and Quaker silent worship varies only in intention, and not much at all in practice, as near as I have been able to tell over the years. Anything which quiets the mind and body, allows for a more intimate relationship with our own awareness, and expands our sense of being a part of one connected reality, seems worthy of investing some time.
It is also a very good way to get to know self better. It is nice to have found this thread.
Thank you.
feralfae
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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"The difference between meditation and Quaker silent worship varies only in intention, and not much at all in practice, …"
Yes and no to the above statement.
I grew up a Quaker so attended many "silent meetings." Quakers are sitting in silence with the intention to speak to the group if so moved by the "inner light." The sitting thus is quite self-conscious and intentional. The messages thereby delivered tend to have a heavy dose of politics and self-righteous sermonizing along the line of: "Isn't it a traverse that …. this" or "We really should do … that." I never heard a single Quaker message that sounded like a mirror image of Buddhism's the Four Noble Truths or the path to enlightenment.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Hmmm ...
Who told you to sit in silence waiting for inspiration to speak to the group? I never, ever learned or heard of that. But there are stranger things that I have not yet learned, so I am sure some meetings have this premise. I am thinking about this.
I sit in silence to connect with the inner voice, the inner Light, and seldom hear anything worth sharing, as far as I can tell. And we don't get a lot of commenting. I remember commenting once in the last several years. That was to share a short poem which came to me about sitting in silent awareness. But we have one 90-year old woman who routinely shares songs with us during meeting. When I was a child, there was a man (who was around 90 as well), who used to share during meeting, but usually about the need to abandon war and find other ways to settle disputes. I think our meeting might get politicized if some had their way, but they seldom speak either. Mostly, we sit, quietly.
Thinking . . . I have been to other meetings, however, where you are right: speaking seems to become an opportunity to advance personal political agendas, although I have always thought that was rather intrusive into what I thought was to be as pure a process of inner dialogue as possible. Since I meditate daily, I suppose that habit causes me to carry that practice into meeting. I have not closely inquired of others about their practices during silence, however. There are a couple publications (Pendle Hill) on Zen and being Quaker, which you may have read.
I'm usually too lost in inner exploration to be self-conscious in the way I think you may mean. Feeling that there would be an expectation to speak would totally turn me off to the practice, and make it into something I would not find very helpful, I think. But YMMV. :)
Thank you
feralfae
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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One of my patterns, and peeling back the onion:
I need to know, need to be right
Earn approval, earn acceptance,
I'm not enough, I'm not ok
I don't deserve to be happy
I don't deserve to be
It's an old and deeply embedded one, which in day-to-day life does not hold so much influence over me as it once did, but it is still firmly in place. Ironically, sharing this is both an effort to rewrite this pattern and a way to repeat it, a slippery seeking of approval by acknowledging my need to seek approval. It came to my attention when I noticed my reaction to some other posts on this thread.
I started this reply with the intention to share some of my experiences that intersect with meditation (i.e. my defense), and I noticed each of my thoughts began with the word I. I kept hearing in my head "there is no I" and erased what I started with. And yet I still use I.
I guess one of the roses for me to stop and smell these days, to revisit and breath deeply again from my present perspective, is learning to not need to prove I'm the smartest. As a kid that was a form of defense, a buttress behind which I could hide from the sea of "I'm not ok". But as an adult, it's just a big block that makes my world smaller and darker.
I've embraced this in the past, but perhaps too much in the form of rebelling against the fruits of my intellect or receiving acknowledgement for it, rather than simply embracing my basic goodness and simply letting love in. Until I let these obstacles slip away, it will limit how much love and compassion I radiate.
Edit: That sounds like another excuse... This dangerous thread has made me pay more attention to my spirit which I have been neglecting for a while, and there are a backlog of messages queued up!
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Hmmm indeed.
Seems you've (feralfae) attended more Quaker meetings than I - especially in recent decades. So I defer to you. Where may I ask?
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Meetings (mostly small) in Montana and Alaska in recent years. Usually un-programmed. A few meetings scattered around the country. Often programmed. As a child, our extended family constituted our own un-programmed meeting. Stuarts and Thatchers, mostly.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Focusing on the “I” as something that is problematical is itself problematical. It’s like the old party trick of, “don’t think about elephants.” The not-thinking either about elephants or an “I” entails thinking that has a sense of seriousness or concreteness to it.
One uses a car, and one probably calls it a “car.” That’s ok, isn’t it? One can do the same thing with “I.” The “I” is just a reference to a mind, and perhaps a body. I wouldn’t suggest taking either all that seriously or concretely.
Our worlds appear to be equifinal and infinitely ambiguous: there is not just one way, one set of features, or even one being (as definable and findable objects). Reality *can be* characterized scientifically, spiritually, religiously, reasonably, instinctually, artistically, socially, economically, legally, humanistically, etc.--but as Peggy Lee sang, "Is that all there is?"
Painting a picture appears improvisational. One starts with an intention, but somehow it becomes something else. It’s a form of eduction: “sensing” and “making” are mutually enacting / forming one another. It’s a kind of dance.
There’s also something called entrainment. Have one person start a beat, then after a little while, have a second person add-in another beat. Then after a little while, have a third person add-in yet another beat. Each person has to listen closely and respond with changes to match-up with each other, but if they think about it too much, they ruin the synchronicity. It’s a kind of dance. It’s improvisational. It’s being-in-the-moment. There is a sense of self-contradiction in it.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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I need to know, need to be right
Earn approval, earn acceptance,
I'm not enough, I'm not ok
I don't deserve to be happy
I don't deserve to be
Bravo NutAgain...you so eloquently described the fundamental nature of our egoic mind state. Not just yours, but all of ours (unless one is an enlightened master, of course, and I haven't seen many of those posting on the Taco lately).
The eternal battle of the "I". A mental construct that now rules our lives and robs us of living.
As Eckhart Tolle says, "The mind is a wonderful servant, but a horrible master."
And like you, I'm really appreciating this thread...for so many reasons, not the least of which was a promise I made myself as a 5 year old that I wouldn't do this again. :-)
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Maybe there needs to be an "I" . . .
It is possible that since humans tend to be group or tribal beings, we all strive for a sense of belonging, and this striving can be expressed in many ways such as wanting to be liked, wanting to be seen, and in being very nice?
If, in our lifetime, we somehow learn that we are unworthy, not liked, or some such, we may carry this as a part of who we think "I" is. Like an innocent child who is taught to say bad words to amuse an adult of low character, we learn these (false) ways of being until we have the opportunity to learn better. Perhaps meditation helps the sense of "I" to become coherent, as well as to provide a means of re-aligning our body, mind, and spirit. Meditation seems to work well for fully integrating various aspects of our identity so that our interwoven systems communicate and synthesize data as a coherent unit.
LOL, L. I keep saying I am going to stay out of these discussions, then I start reading and thinking, and get caught in the process. Again. And again.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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feralfae wrote:
'Meditation seems to work well for fully integrating various aspects of our identity so that our interwoven systems communicate and synthesize data as a coherent unit."
You must be right; I just posted within the last two minutes a crude joke on the "Old Guys Rule" thread and this post here. Does this mean I've integrated the juvenile and the esoteric Terry?
Is this proof that 45 years of mediation have been a success or a complete failure in my case? Just wondering; something else to meditate upon.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Maybe there needs to be an "I" . . .
As I've mentioned elsewhere, If you experience full-blown "I-consciousness" in Castaneda's Art of Dreaming you will likely be impressed with the existence of this powerful force. It still resonates with me at a distance of 45 years.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mike L said
"The not-thinking either about elephants or an “I” entails thinking that has a sense of seriousness or concreteness to it. "
I agree if you approach it with a seriousness it going to be a a awkward experience. If anything try approaching meditation with a sense of humor intact. But really you just make an effort to observe what is happening moment to moment no matter what it is and notice if you are trying to control the experience and then let go of the trying to control or get something.
One style I use sometimes is to ask what is "I" on the in breath and then on the out breath I answer with my body or my foot or my stomach; as a non-discursive answer. what happens is you immediately move from the discursive mind to the direct experience in the moment. just being in the moment of eyes ,ears, nose,touch, feelings etc. without labeling them. Just being.
The intent of this is there is no intent; but the result can lead to a clearer view of what is actually happening moment to moment and day to day.
And if you can perceive clearly you have a much better chance of acting clearly.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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PSP: . . . on the out breath I answer with my body or my foot or my stomach . . .
+1 (I didn’t even need to think about it. Rang true immediately. Excellent.)
Feralfae:
You are, I think, pointing out the need for community—as even here on ST, even if we are no longer climbing, even if don’t feel appreciated. Community is a powerful draw and appears to be a great source of energy that can be tapped into for all of us. It allows us to be more than just ourselves. It might be a reaching out of consciousness to know itself more fully.
As to that point—and to Jgill, you, L, and the others—may I suggest that ego and “I” should not be trash-heaped. Just transcended to a more inclusive points of view, IMO.
P.S. Feralfae, I hear your comment about getting hooked in a thread. :-) For me, it's a way of taking some time off from work. Better than TV. I come and go. All personal realities are trippy. Be well, M.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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One of the potential traps of a thread like this is the deeper the group goes into the subject, the more the conversation starts narrowing to specifics; and at some ineffable threshold, people like me start tumbling toward interpretations. Then the thrill is gone because, in my experience, knowing has trumped the adventure of embracing the nameless and unborn.
I always struggled with this, especially early on, when I was searching for what I was supposed to “do” during meditation. How might I “do it right?” It took a whole bunch of years to understand that to approach meditation in terms of doing this or NOT doing that was typically just an attempt to control the process, and pretty much kept me at the level I was trying to transcend. Basically. My ego or “intelligence” could not effect or occasion clarity in this regards, since I was using the same set of glasses – so to speak.
Specifically, I was looking at the process as something “I” did, and which required just the right participation on my part to “get” or achieve what the whole meditation thing was all about. To grasp the “point” or the answer. This discursive approach, the endless tasking to figure it all out by “doing” meditation a certain way, was the threshold I had to pass through before my basic things started to shift. I had to do the "spiritual" stuff just so, and all that jazz.
That much said, there WERE and ARE things I needed to do, mainly physical, in order to facilitate the practice. Few, but these matters of form were essential. For example, I had to have a firm base, and that mean sitting on a cushion. I had to keep my back straight and let my breathing stretch out and keep my head at the right angle, and most of all, for “no-mind” meditation, I had to keep my eyes open and soft-focused. Then it all came down to approaching the practice with an orientation and intention not hooked up with “doing?”
This, in my experience, is the slippery slope that most of us stumble on no matter how much we practice - how to not-do not-doing. Statements like that used to infuriate me, as though someone was intentionally obfuscating a topic that demanded plain language.
JL
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Then the thrill is gone because, in my experience, knowing has trumped the adventure of embracing the nameless and unborn.
Well put, John.
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WBraun
climber
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The unborn (nameless) is not nor has ever been impersonal.
Impersonalism is the last pitfall ....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Nicely said, JL.
The folks here can surely handle a bit of dissonance or even contradiction, though. And as MikeL says, the generation of group spirit may be worth the few words it takes.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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MH2, I think the group spirit is a remarkably strong force in all things, especially for people like me who grew up feeling radically "other." They say that it takes a village to raise a child. I trust it takes the group spirit to ever get past being "bound by self."
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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I’m reading the book, “Improv,” by Keith Johnstone (1979). I’m interested in improvisation ever since some teachers at SCU in the fine arts departments listened to me talk about wu wei and pointed to improvisation. Johnstone was / is a teacher of improvisation in established theatre in the UK.
In the first part of the book, he talks about how life became dull and colorless as he grew up. For some reason, he started to systematically observe the images that came to him at the cusp of when he fell asleep. After a while of learning to observe and remember those experiences, it encouraged him to look closely at conjured images, and much later, to everyday life. He writes:
“After a lot of practice at attending to the images I conjured up, I belated thought of attending to the reality around me. Then the deadness and greyness immediately sloughed off—yet I’d thought I’d never move through a visionary world again [as he experienced in his childhood], that I’d lost it. In my case it was largely my interest in art that had destroyed any life in the world around me. I’d learned perspective, and about balance, and composition. It was as if I’d learned to redesign everything, to reshape it so that I saw what *ought* to be there, which of course is much inferior to what *is* there. The dullness was not an inevitable consequence of age, but of education.”
The entire program, as that which meditation can introduce one to, is one of deprogramming what we’ve learned and become.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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The entire program, as that which meditation can introduce one to, is one of deprogramming what we’ve learned
Whew!
I resisted the temptation, so maybe I'm off to a start on the program.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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No, you are doing it all wrong! You need to put your left thumb in your right ear as you repeat the mantra: Ohwha tagoo siam. ;)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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That belongs in the RCrumb thread.,..
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Or does meditation have to be physically inactive?
It's not easy to get a satisfactory answer to this fundamental question since the resident meditators are all sitters. I've asked this before. I doubt one could experience "no-thingness" while energetically engaged, but who knows? Certainly a moving meditator may leave their "I" for a short while.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Happy Easter/Passover/Spring/ Naw Ruz/Awakening of the Earth :)
Tami,
I am impressed - in a good way - that you have found a way to have a planned route for walking meditation. I have tried and tried over the years, and my body awareness takes over, and as well, I notice the birds, plants, wind, other things. There is a measure of mindfulness there, yes, but the external environment definitely distracts me from creating that inner peace. I have not been able to establish that "ground of being" that I need to be in/have contact with/sense as my state of awareness when my body is active.
I have heard of people who can walk and meditate or do do other things while they meditate. But I have not learned how to do so yet. I can flow into a fairly meditative state when I am in the studio, losing myself for hours and hours, but it is not the depth of meditation I have when I can shed all but my breath and be within, sitting in stillness.
I like you idea of a planned path, though, and am wondering how I might incorporate that somewhere here, maybe on a mountain trail, to work on meditation with movement.
Thank you for that.
feralfae
LOL, and I totally appreciate your definition of "monkey mind" which I sometimes think of as "gerbil wheel" :)
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Or does meditation have to be physically inactive?
Kath,
Towards the end of the Vipassana 10-day retreats, we were given the option to do a couple of walking meditations in place of sitting. Being an active person, I initially chose one of those.
The paths were so well groomed and manicured, you could walk them with your eyes closed...which I sometimes did, just going to and from class. However, the quality of inner stillness and minute sensory awareness just wasn't the same during the walking meditation as when I was sitting still.
My guess is that movement stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, which is counterproductive to achieving a pure state of inner stillness. Just a hunch.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The "physically inactive" point is well taken.
My sense of this goes as follows: On another thread there was and still is a lot of talk about "determinism," which to anyone believing in a strictly mechanical explanation of consciousness will insist is entirely true, that all of our actions and reactions are determined by antecedent "causes" or factors, that our actions are in many cases determined by our brains before "we" are even conscious of a decision being mechanically made for "us."
The Sufis are huge on this whole mechanical-model, and most all of their practice is geared toward breaking out, so to speak. However for a meditator, breaking free of determinism is not a matter of trying or "doing" an undetermined act, but rather, letting all doing fall away and for a while at least, experience what life is like while making no effort to "do" anything.
"Doing," however you define it, will always involve impulses, and when one is not involved in efforting in any way, our awareness can simply observe all the determined impulses to do this or do that - neither moving toward or away from any thing or impulse or thought or sensation etc. In this observing space one might find the undetermined and unborn.
Insofar as any walking or moving involves some form of efforting, impulses are involved and followed, which once more introduces determined impulses/actions. So inaction, non-efforting, or pure being is usually the way to go, and most will find that total stillness is the path of choice in this regards.
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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This latest discussion reminds me of a technique that I learned years ago from a Native American. He just called it "the Hunter", and I never considered it meditation, just a method to alter your perception by detaching your attention from focusing to just taking it all in. It is easier to do out in a natural setting, as there are less distractions. I like to be in a forest or looking into water for fish.
You basically just stand or sit really still with your eyes open and slowly let go of your eye's tendency to want to focus on objects. Your ears are not discriminating sounds. Breath through your mouth and nose at the same time, as these senses share some input. Just as in stillness there is that sense of detachment involved. At some point your perception noticeably changes such that what is going on in your periphery is as clear as any other place in your field of vision. The sound integrates with the sight in such a way as you can pick out the motion of the smallest component without actually focusing on the object. The more you do it, the quicker and better you get and you start to notice more of your environment. This is really good for finding game or even mushrooms or fish. It helps if there is not human noise around when you learn but eventually even that is not a distraction.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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The verb "meditate" refers to a range of activities or mental states (look it up on Wiki). I may "meditate" on a math theorem (focused thought), or "meditate" while climbing (focused thought and action), but for most of those on this thread "meditation" means a stillness and unfocused awareness leading ultimately to an insight that few non-meditators attain.
I suppose the question posed by this thread is whether these other kinds of "meditation" should be discussed in this setting.
Probably not.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Largo wrote:
Insofar as any walking or moving involves some form of efforting, impulses are involved and followed, which once more introduces determined impulses/actions. So inaction, non-efforting, or pure being is usually the way to go, and most will find that total stillness is the path of choice in this regards.
I found the above a clear explanation of why total stillness would be preferred by most as the path of choice.
Thank you Largo.
feralfae
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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I have found a number of secular references or descriptions to states and experiences that could look like or could refer to meditative practices and experiences. Flow is the first one I found.
FLOW
In the literature, Flow has been described in the following ways:
Flow refers to “being in the moment,” “in tune,” “in the groove,” “wired in,” “in the zone,” “centered,” and so forth.
Flow has been noted in sports, art, religion, spirituality, education, gaming, and in other pursuits.
The literature has described the experience as a feeling of spontaneous joy, complete immersion, almost mindless concentration in an activity. It’s also been labeled as *operational thinking” as opposed to *discursive thinking*
The literature has sometimes indicated that in flow states there is no self-consciousness, along with a sense of personal control or agency in situations, intrinsic reward rather than extrinsic rewards (e.g, achievement), often solitary, and aimed at self-improvement.
Most of the writing about flow says that it comes about when one’s skill is perfectly suited to a challenge. However, to sustain that kind of match-up leads to greater challenges with spiraling complexity.
The three conditions for flow has been said to be: (i) clear goals and progress; (ii) clear and immediate feedback; and (iii) a balance between *perceived* challenges and *perceived* skills (otherwise boredom or anxiousness arise).
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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MikeL,
I think that is an excellent statement on Flow as I experience in the studio and sometimes in the mountains when my body is humming with the Earth and with the mountain. Or with the clay or canvas or whatever medium I am working in at the time.
There is very little sense of awareness of self or any outer world: all is flowing together toward some envisioned goal (art object) in peace and perfect harmony. But there is no striving: only the joy of flowing synthesis and creativity.
Solving challenges by using creativity is joy and is the process. And that process itself enters into a state of flow when all is in balance. I love being in that state. Whenever I think of being in perfect peace and harmony, I think of times when I am in flow. But there is still body awareness, intentional action, and the ability to stretch awareness to include another human or two, which is where I think it might differ from what I consider my "formal" meditation practice of stillness and losing desire as well as emotions.
But, yes: they are definitely close.
Thank you.
feralfae
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Good post on flow, Mike. It's a feature of gymnastics (many years ago) and climbing (not too many years ago) that I relished. I loved to repeat climbs and problems that were not so hard that I could not abandon myself in them. I occasionally found myself weaving in and out of the rock on longer, easy solo climbs I had established.
This kind of flow is a common experience in which we have all indulged, but obviously it is not the same as the stillness in sitting meditation even though we leave our recognition of "I" behind in the flow.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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My father had a subscription to Scientific American ever since I can remember. I think it was around 1970 that there was an article in there titled, "Altered States of Awareness" if I remember correctly. It really opened my mind up with many questions, even though I found it difficult to understand as a young teen. When I went through my phase of experimenting with mind-altering substances, it gave me a perspective that my peers often lacked. They just wanted to get fupped duck and party. This curiosity lead to other discoveries in the fields of mind and perception and even mysticism and the study of ancient wisdom from as many cultures as I could understand. As I enjoy this thread, I can see that many here have enjoyed this long curious search for higher meaning of consciousness and I find it very refreshing when I can still gain new perspectives on the subject. I just wish we had a better vocabulary and syntax for being more clear in our discussions. Carry on with this worthwile thread, please, and thank you all.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Wayno,
This is a total aside, and I do not want to create a tangent, but "the Hunter" is something I learned from my Algonquin/Scottish-Sioux/French grandmother, when I was a small child. It is as you describe, thank you for mentioning it.
Yes, I also enjoy this thread and its topics. And someone mentioned Wu Wei which was something I studied at 13, and which I think of as a Flow. :) Shoji Hamada, a Japanese potter whom I admire, talked a lot about this experience.
Here, we are slowly developing a shared lexicon, but it takes a while, especially with a practice and state of being as subjective as meditation.
Thank you.
feralfae
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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The second notion in the literature that I ran into in my investigations is called, Psychological Presence.
PSYCHOLOGICAL PRESENCE
Being psychologically present means to be alive—“there.” It refers to being physically involved, emotionally connected, and cognitively vigilant.
The literature concerning psychological presence makes frequent reference to authenticity, which refers to a full expression of one’s feelings, thoughts, and beliefs. Authenticity describes an integrated whole self, bringing the depths of a personal self into *role performances.* It describes people as being vulnerable, taking risks, and feeling conflict.
There are 4 dimensions of psychological presence:
(i) Attentiveness: being open to others, not disabled by anxiety, and defenses managed.
(ii) Connection: the notion of empathy is key here—a sense of giving and receiving.
(iii) Integration: that is, people who psychological present are physically, emotionally, and intellectually grounded; people can call up different facets of the self as needed, and that means that they can switch temperaments as situations require.
(iv) Task / Role Focused: the personality is channeled through the role being played, where neither the personality nor the role assumes dominance.
How can one recognize psychological presence?
—Physically, people are planted—they are there for the interaction; physically they stand their ground.
—In terms of eye contact, present people provide eye contact about 60%-85% of the time; they hold the other “there”; they see who the other is; they exhibit useful non-verbal gestures that communicate.
—They can perform all the speech acts competently: they know how to make promises, offers, requests, declarations, and assertions; their speech exhibit cadence, sing-song tones, laughter, softness now and then, and their voices are filled with personal values
—They can follow conversations; they make sense of another’s talk; they ask questions; they are constantly in search of the *object of conversation* as opposed to intellectualizing it; they do not nitpick
—They are (again) authentic: they work with their real emotions in context of the task situation and in the role that they are fulfilling; they do not dismiss or avoid emotion; they wear no masks; they do not act out; they display what they are feeling and thinking
Why doesn’t psychological presence show up in most people?
1. We are a multitude of voices, ideas, energies, and feelings. That leads to confusion and inconsistency; hence, we cycle in and out of psychological presence, and our theories-in-use split our personhood from the roles that we think we need to wholly assume.
2. Security: we feel vulnerable when we show our real selves; (of course some people are more confident than others); being psychologically present can be totally exhausting: being vigilant effortfully can lead to burnout; it takes a lot of guts / courage—it’s a damned tough act.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Another installment.
A third secular notion that I have run across that provides some insight to meditative states or experiences arises for me out of the distinctions between what’s called “hot” and “cold” cognition in neuroscience, cognitive science, and cognitive psychology.
HOT VS. COLD COGNITION
“Cold Cognition” refers to mental-rational conscious discursive thinking. It tends to focus on content . . . that is, *knowing what.* Most people think of this kind of cognition when they think about mind. When we talk about intellect, cold cognition is what we most people are usually are referring to. Cold cognition is explicit, deliberate, effortful, rational, driven by a sense of autonomy, willpower, and individualism. Cold cognition tends to be slow and oriented to objective, extrinsic rewards (and measurements). This kind of cognition is dualistic and exhibits archaic hedonism (primarily self-interested in a narcissistic sense rather than a stoic sense).
Cold cognition also tends to be flexible, adaptive, digital (clear consequential decisions), and often generates complex modeling. Cold cognition tends to rely upon language, and it is often the basis for the acquisition of new knowledge. Cold cognition appears to exhibit limited capacity (i.e., processing power, otherwise known as “bounded rationality”). It is the basis for free riding, deception, excess desires, artifice, hypocrisy, and strategy.
“Hot Cognition” is more about *know-how.* It is tacit, practical, and cannot be formalized. It tends to be spontaneous, natural, and largely unconscious (instinct). It is fast, semi-automatic, and effortless, often showing up as habits and feelings. Hot cognition looks more analog (than digital), and it often arises out of some sense of expertise. It presents as more holistic approaches in the forms of emotions, images, and reflections. Those who study body language (e.g., Navarro, Eckman, etc.) have documented the different signs of hot cognition that the body presents to others Oftentimes, culture and the arts are mechanisms for social cohesion that rely upon hot cognition.
There are some familiar dynamics that show up in these studies / investigations of hot cognition vs. cold cognition.
Downregulation: those activities that seem to allow the control regions of the brain to become somewhat disengaged (e.g., through dancing, playing, meditation, drunkenness); down regulation makes people less inhibited, more authentic, less guileful, more honest about their feelings; a short-term suspension of self-monitoring. I have friends in international business who tell me that every important deal in the Far East is accompanied by heavy drinking as a social means to discover who the deal is being made with.
High formality (my term): occupying the conscious mind with a high focus on some detail of movement (let’s say here, writing letters on a piece of paper, hitting keys on the keyboard) allows access to the unconscious creative mind; such behaviors open-up a side conduit to the unconscious for expression. (I’ll write something about improvisation later, I guess.)
Thin-slicing: “gut feelings” that result from narrow or few windows of observations or experience. These gut feelings happen quickly. There seems to be some kind of unconscious pattern discernment going on in this.
Categorical inflexibility: the human tendency to be dominated by “mind”; letting the mind be the master; a tendency for socially learned representations of objects to constrain one’s ability to think about them in novel or creative ways.
Trying Not To Try: it’s a paradox that any meditator has experienced. I think it was Yoda who said there is no “try” or “not try.” There is only do. ;-)
Improper application of rationality without hot cognition: unconscious “hot” processes (emotions, habits, implicit skills) play a much greater role in human behavior than conscious “cold” processes would suggest. This includes moral judgements (see the work by recent ‘Neo-Humeans’—e.g. Haidt). The rational tail is wagged by the emotional dog. See also Damasio’s work on somatic markers that he says accompanies representations of the world. Damasio says that objects in the world are tightly accompanied by all sorts of feelings about good, bad, urgency, and what not. Damasio’s research (particular as it is by focusing on people who have lost part of their brains) indicates (to Damasio, at least) that the conscious mind ungrounded by the wisdom of the body is remarkably incapable of taking care of business in daily life. (This he calls, “Descartes’ error.”) People with VMPFC brain injuries (the center of emotion processing) can pass IQ tests, process math, undertake abstract reasoning, and refer to memory, but when it comes to making real life decisions, they are barely capable of functioning; such patients cannot make simple choices or take into account future consequences of decisions. Hence, Damasio says, disembodied reason is incapable of guiding human behavior—especially when it comes to morality. Morality in the real world must be, says Damasio, spontaneous, unself-conscious, automatic, and “hot.”
To sum, cold and hot cognition studies suggest that one should find ways to be relaxed but vigilant—that is, living in “hot cognition,” but ready to call on cold cognition if one gets into trouble.
Finding ways to be relaxed yet observationally vigilant (a kind of paradox) is something that meditation seems to teach.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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An early look at "flow":
Csikszentmihalyi, M. (1969) The Americanization of rock climbing. University of Chicago Magazine, 61(6), 20-27.
An ST participant was one of his subjects.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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"Or does meditation have to be physically inactive?"
"It's not easy to get a satisfactory answer to this fundamental question since the resident meditators are all sitters. I've asked this before. I doubt one could experience "no-thingness" while energetically engaged, but who knows? Certainly a moving meditator may leave their "I" for a short while."
These are very interesting and important comments because they represent what one’s relationship is to the practice or meditation. I practice zen so my experience is from a zen perspective. In zen we practice with eyes open when we sit ; this is because we are witnessing. Along with the witnessing I ask “what is I” and generally I answer through the witnessing process (just being). Sometimes I am tired and will close my eyes and then I emphasize to do listening meditation. What is happening right now.
If there is a large “event” happening in my life I will often find myself dwelling about the event during sitting meditation and witnessing that dwelling on the event. When I go on solo hikes or runs I often see my mind churning over dialog about things, so I am present to the mind churning.
Mind churning is not good or bad; just mind churning; and you don’t want to try to control it. This is an important point. If you try to control the churning mind your relationship to the meditation changes from being a witness to trying to manipulate the meditation.
Once you start trying to manipulate or control the mediation you are no longer witnessing but you are trying to get something. That is why the question “what is I?” is so useful and effective it can bring you back from trying to make your meditation something. Who is it that is bothered by the churning mind?
This is all very subtle and as JL says can be a slippery slope. “I” is constantly trying coop and define the experiences. It’s why good teachers are so necessary.
When I sit retreats and especially longer retreats the witness mind when sitting ,eating or walking doesn’t shift much; it all is just a big witnessing event. The sitting helps the mind quiet down and then the activities become more like the sitting. Apparently; eventually there is no difference between sitting meditation and moving meditation (day to day life) and you by natural process are just witnessing.
For me I am still attached to many things and constantly biting the various hooks out there.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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“We are like the spider. We weave our life and then we move along in it. We are like the dreamer who dreams, and then lives in the dream. This is true for the entire universe.” (The Upanishads)
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Next Installment.
ENGAGEMENT
It’s a new and energetic topic in organizational studies. Businesses want to know how to engage people so that they can be emotionally connect to the workplace.
It’s sad, really. 70% of the workforce is either unengaged (only suiting up and showing up, and nothing more), or disengaged (actively attempting to sabotage the operations of the organization). (Only 30% are working toward an organization’s stated purposes.) The incurred losses are projected about $450B-$550B / year by Gallup—which claims 160 million data points from surveys around the world.
Anyway, the focus or definition of engagement revolves around passion, complete absorption, emotion, self-expression, “activation”, being “plugged-in,” creativity, personal voice, authenticity, non-defensive communication, playfulness, and “ethical behaviors.” Millennnials seem to resonate with most of these descriptors. The behaviors of engagement have been described as neither sacrificing a role for a self, nor vice versa. It also describes a promotion of connections to work and others, and innovation and improvisation.
A few threads of commonality can be seen from the descriptions or narratives up to now. I have two more to add, yet, though. Then I’ll try to summarize. The next two are Improvisation, and non-secular Chinese Wu Wei.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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MikeL,
As always, looking forward to your posts. Climbing is certainly a form of flow or of a meditative state for me, especially when I have been on a route that I know well. There is little that provides more sense of being-ness for my entire physical, mental, and spiritual being.
I am especially looking forward to your post on Wu Wei.
Thank you
feralfae
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Thanks, Feralfae. Looks like this thread isn't getting much notice. (Just as well, I guess.)
"I'm sorry I wrote such a long letter; I didn't have time to write a short one" (Blaise Pascal).
IMPROVISATION
I think I mentioned before that some folks from the fine arts department pointed me to improvisation last year, so it’s still a relatively new topic for me. Improvisation taps an apparent infinite number of repertoires that reside in the unconscious. It is intuition-in-action. It’s been said to be pure style. It seems to be connected to expertise and mindless practice. I’ve come to understand that improvisation is about surrendering, letting go.
It’s been said there are 5 different stages of competence. The first stage is (if I were a competent teacher in the area): you watch me do it. The second stage is I watch you do it. The third stage is you do it alone, and then I’ll monitor the outcomes in some fashion. This is the stage that most of us find ourselves in most things. We’re competent. The fourth stage is when you do the work / task, you add your imprint (imprimatur) to it. Others can identify your work stylistically as “your work.” “Oh, yeah, that’s DMT’s work.” The work has something of your individuality, your personality, in it. This fourth stage is known as virtuosity. The fifth stage, mastery, is when you do the work, you do it differently each and every time. You can start anywhere and finish anywhere in the work / task under different conditions. Mastery of understanding here is no longer related content or process: instead, it’s in-the-moment expression. Competence passes to presence. If skill hides in the unconscious, then when the skill is shown, it reveals the unconscious.
Style tends to come out of the minute particulars of body, mind, and speech; these are vehicles through which the self moves and manifests itself. Its essence is original nature. Style comes through every mark one makes. Every person is an intricate design in his or her individuality, personally and transpersonally. There is nothing random about anyone; randomness is impossible.
There is a great deal of attention in the literature about practice in improvisation. Practice, practice, practice. But it’s not “practice making perfect.” That kind of practice looks more like professionalism—rigid forms of skill acquisition and formalized education. (In the East they believe practice reveals the personality, the individual, what is actually there.)
In improvisation, practice is play, and play is practice. Play is not what a player does, but how a player does it. Play is different than game. Play is an attitude—without being a defined activity with rules, playing field, or participants. All creative acts are forms of play. Practice properly performed is without objective or goal other than just play, where there is nothing to gain and nothing to lose. “Funktionlust” (Ger.) looks similar: the pleasure of doing or producing an effect, as opposed to attaining an effect or having something. When practice no longer feels like play, a player is supposed to quit until it is play again. (Some have claimed that without play, learning and evolution are impossible.)
Improvisational practice is patient and thorough. It often looks to so many people like ritual. But understood for what it should be, ritual is a form of concentration and love. Indeed, all artistic players adore their instruments. For example, writing is an art for a person who adores language, when the purpose is not to make a point but to provoke an imaginative or imaginary state. Concentrating on close-order technique (e.g., with the body, gravity, balance, a writing instrument, a drum, a rope and set of protection) leaves room for inspiration to sneak through the barrier between the unconscious and the conscious unimpeded. Then “the player” disappears.
Playing with or preparing with the instruments or tools of one’s activities is ritualistic. It seems players do so to invoke the muse, to clear obscurations and doubts from their minds, to open capacities, concentration, intensify, tune-in, tune-up, turn-on, stabilize him or herself for the challenge that lies ahead. An instrument (even a body) “played,” is a dance with an object. The system of player-instrument-audience-environment (for example) is one indivisible, interactive totality. When that relationship is realized, mastery and control become meaningless. For art to appear, a player must disappear. Practice IS art, much like meditation IS enlightenment, much like climbing IS the mountain. When a climber is “in the zone,” he or she is the mountain. This happens only in real time.
Of course, as all meditators and artists experience, they get stuck in their art or work. Stuckness occurs when a player puts too much effort into the practice. Creative despair, being hopelessly stuck, is simply a symptom that a player is throwing everything she has into her effort. Losing sight of playfulness, work or art becomes ponderous and stiff. Any player may devise a plan of action or an agenda, but when approaching the moment of truth in performance, he or she needs to throw those away. Instead, a player can become what he or she is doing (“out ‘I’ go and there is only the work”). The noun becomes a verb through a samadhi—an absorption in a fascination of textures, resistances, nuances, limitations through some kind of media. A player lets go; does nothing; just lets things happen (Jung).
So many things are improvisational, but we don’t think about them that way. Ordinary speech is improvisational. Every conversation is a form of jazz. Conversation is not meeting another halfway but developing something new to both. Riding a bike is improvisational—when effortless control comes through balance and continuous adjustment to continuous change. (Of course, speaking in complete sentences is not art.) The closer one looks, the more that everything looks improvisational and spontaneous, a synaptic summation, a balance and combination of multivariate complexities in a single flash. Zing.
There are a few particular techniques that are worth describing.
Galumphing Apparently anthropologists have found that “galumphing” is a prime characteristic of higher life forms. Galumphing (e.g., the walk of models on a runway) is rambunctious, inexhaustible, seemingly useless elaboration, an ornamentation of activity, profligate, excessive, exaggerated, uneconomical, and guaranteeing an over-supply of requisite variety. Also referred to as “technique to burn,” this form of play sharpens the capacity to deal with a changing world.
Entrainment Focusing on making small acts impeccable entrains the body, speech, and mind into a single stream of activity. Have one person start a beat, have a second add to it, and then a third. Every player must listen closely and adjust constantly to keep the pulse, but mostly it’s nonstop in-the-moment adjustments, push-and-pull. It’s a trance state. One has to relax to stay with it. Being slightly off from one another makes finding each other exciting. We feel carried away or carried inward by rhythmic, mantic, qualities of music, poetry, theatre, and ritual.
When writing, simply focus on hitting the keys one at a time, or drawing the perfect letter with pen and paper. Or getting up from the chair to go to the kitchen—make those movements flawlessly, perfectly, gracefully. This appears to occupy the discursive thinking mind and allows the creativity to express itself. Meditators should have some experience with this.
Structures would seem to ignite spontaneity. Limits provide artists and players with something to work with, and against. But it’s not like art or beautiful work is thought up in consciousness to be expressed by the hand or feet or mouth. In fact, a player’s feet or hands or voice will surprise him, as if they were creating and solving a player’s problems on their own. Players can often be baffled at how their bodies, mind, and speech show up effortlessly. When that feeling and forms come into a state of harmony, players can almost audibly hear the “click” when both slide into shape with each other. It creates a huge surge of energy, as though it is a recognition of an old feeling that has never quite surfaced before. (As Plato said, we don’t learn . . . we remember.)
Eduction Eduction is a drawing-out of a thing or pattern from reality, something that a player knows. Eduction is an assimilation of an outside pattern, *and* an accommodation to it. This describes a never-ending dialogue between making and sensing (a mutual causality) in a player’s world, something perhaps never seen before—but nonetheless something that is a natural outgrowth of a player’s original nature. Eduction is the dance of a player endlessly projecting, sensing the projections, and amending the projections, and on and on.
Like mediation, improvisation shows us that, against a background that is still, quiet, and stress-free, subtle sounds and movements can have very dramatic effects.
Personal creativity is baffling and paradoxical. *Trying* to control, create, break-free of self-tied knots requires a player to distance him or herself from what he or she is already. Improvisation is a form of surrender, and the surrender needs to be complete, genuine, uncontrived, wholehearted, with hope and fear abandoned, with nothing to gain or lose. Fear-based playing, on the other hand, is *trying* to play while being pre-occupied with self. Not caring, a player plays better. Anytime a player performs an activity for an outcome, he or she is not totally in that activity.
When Miles Davis approached the microphone, he focused himself into a meditative space before playing a note. There would often be long silences between phrases in his playing. Vladamir Horowitz showed absolute stillness and concentration as he “watched his hands” play the pieces. Keith Jarrett said of Miles that his sound came from silence that existed before time, before the first musician played the first note. When players have that kind of connection, they claim their art / work is more like taking dictation (see Mary Watkins’ works). Players should put their hands on their instruments and trust them. Then material plays itself, and it comes out organically as “the player’s voice.” This idea goes so far as to not even caring about being artistically good. Even that must be surrendered. As Miles said (and later Thelonious Monk showed everyone with his music), “there are no wrong notes.” The more a player feels as though he or she can walk away, the more powerful the playing becomes. “Try to imagine as much as possible that someone else is doing the playing.” If you do not have this kind of patience, then stop playing. Keep it light. Let things come to you.
“The way [Great Tao] is not difficult; just avoid picking and choosing” (Seng Tsan).
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pa
climber
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MikeL, thank you for a very very good post....Particularly liked: "For art to appear, the player must disappear".
I have always been drawn to the verb "To acquiesce"...
Acquisition and yielding, all in one fractal flow :))
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WBraun
climber
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For art to appear, the player must disappear".
That's impersonalism.
Instead ....
The player and art exist simultaneously become one with variegatedness and diversity but keep their individuality .........
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pa
climber
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"The player and art exist simultaneously..."
Yes, thank you for making it more clear. I was interpreting "the player" as the ego, not as the soul.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Hmmmm . . .
just nattering here . . .
this is just a thought, and I will think about this concept more this next week in the studio:
When I am making a piece of art, I am not separate from the art. In my mind is an expression I wish to bring into being. My hands know most of the moves, and if I see the image in my mind, and can feel it in my muscles, my hands will make it.
I am not separate from the art. It is a part of me that needs to be manifested. When I am done with it, it is as though something within me has been released into these other dimensions. I do not feel I get lost in my art, nor that I become my art. While I am creating, there is a form of transcendence which I am usually far too absorbed to consider. But I am not separate from creating or the creation.
My favorite composer is Scriabin. His silences are as lyrical and harmonious as his musical notes. My favorites are his 24 Preludes, Opus 11 which are beautifully mathematical and emotional to my senses. These Preludes, performed by Ruth Loredo (followed by Vladimir Horowitz) are the best music I have found for my own aesthetic sensibilities. His sonata #7, Opus 64 (White Mass) is stunning in part for its use of "space" —to my ears, anyway. He did not present himself separate from his composing. Granted, they institutionalized him, but there is no accounting for the bulge in the bell curve. (Then again, maybe if Gödel had been institutionalized again, he might have stayed healthier and lived longer.) And Scriabin uses silence to stress the creativity of his use of sound. There is space around the creation, to emphasize the creation to the listener. I do not think Scriabin was separate from the notes or the silence of his creations while he was composing.
So as with most art, my porcelain art pieces create space, and it is that space, as much as the clay form, that brings the piece to life. It contains aspects of me and aspects of the clay, of the fire, and of the water. When it is finished, it will probably have a tone when struck. Like a bell, it speaks. :) Then I am done with it, and let it go. Now it is separate from me.
How much is me creating, and how much is the clay becoming what it wants to be, based on what I am sharing with its substance? How does one parse this flowing of creativity into me and 'it'? I cannot remove myself from the creation until it is completed. Then it may be that it will lose its vitality for me and will I lose interest. That part of me that needed to be expressed is finished. I suppose sculptors, painters, writers, composers, and children building tall towers of blocks, feel the same sense of being finished with their creation.
But while I am engaged, there is certainly very little sense of 'me" and 'it' as separate entities. I am in the art. And the art is emerging from within me. All of which probably makes very little sense, even to me, but at least it is something to think about. Right now, I think I will go listen to Preludes and think about incompleteness. :)
Thank you.
feralfae
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 10, 2015 - 07:52am PT
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We could use more of that kind of nattering, feralfae.
It is strange to consider. I often feel that lack of separation you mention. What I wonder is; where does the feeling of separateness come from? Simply calling it ego or "I" is a non-answer. The world enters through our senses and flows inside us. Our skin is an easily traversed border and there is probably no clear boundary inside us, either, between ourselves and the world.
Many thanks for the views on music.
edit:
Previously on ST:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=955235&msg=955261#msg955261
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Chalkpaw
climber
Flag, AZCO
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Apr 10, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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Thanks to all who have freely provided information and experiences about Meditation. Of all the active outdoor freaks I know, the ST group seems to be the most willing to at least have a discussion or two in this digital medium.
I find that an active life, seeking, exploring, having experiences is such a great way to add into the formal sit down, temple led, group, processes. It is a powerful combination that is worthy.
Climbing has such a long history and I am enjoying finding the largely Asian influence to be an inspiration. Its fun to think of these men running through landscapes, climbing, sharing stories, and then going for the long quiet reflective moments. True badasses willing to dive deep with cultural support. The Western mind has some history of the same, but not as much. Today, I think we are leading into a new understanding, using technology to aid in the process. Flow is very helpful for me, the driving force which allows the mind to gain meditative, present awareness which can be used with the struggle.
A group that presents flow in a way that aided me is the flowgenomeproject.co
It would be interesting to have a ST basecamp weekend in a place like a National park to meet face to face, share stories, and practice flow. October in Zion is one possibility.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 10, 2015 - 10:21am PT
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Where does the feeling of separateness come from?
--
Identifying with the "I." This happens seamlessly once memory and discursive mind narrow focus on some thing. If you shift your attention from the stuff and the "I" between which you feel said separation, and instead sense into the space between them, and the space between the cells in your brain, and between your thoughts and feelings, the separation vanishes. Most of us have to have a kind of flow-task to have the separation vanish. To have it vanish when you are NOT tasking is a practice, IME. And the practice is never finished.
JL
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 10, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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A non-answer. Do infants have an "I"? I have heard the opinion that infants do not realize that they are separate from their mother, for example. It seems likely that they do not feel separateness in the way that adults do. Why should people come to feel this separation as they grow up? What makes you identify with an "I"?
Very early experiences have had effects on our psychology and without knowing what those experiences and effects were, our explanations of adult psychology are lacking.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 10, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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"Very early experiences have had effects on our psychology and without knowing what those experiences and effects were, our explanations of adult psychology are lacking. "
ZM BonSoeng also a psycho therapist talks alot about this in his teaching. He basicly says that from a very early age kids start figuring out what tools to use to get what they want. And they use them over and over on their parents and friends as long as they keep working. I can think of a few crying, whining, having temper tantrums (anger) etc, etc...
Since we can't talk at a young age how else are you going to communicate you are hungry or you want your diaper changed.
When we become adults we still try to use these tools often to our detriment. But they are the only tools we have experience with.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 10, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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MH2:
What you are referring to per the infant "I" and fusion to the mother is called "Normal symbiotic phase" and it's a development stage as described by Margaret Mahler and taught in all grad psychology classes per developmental psychology.
So far as addressing your "non-answer" comment - not on this thread. Arguments are not in keeping with the timbre of this discussion. Instead, perhaps experiment with keeping your focus open and not attached to the content of your awareness and see for yourself where the "I" goes. Or look into the recovery literature per being "bound by self." All of your questions are valid and have been dealt with extensively by generations of mind explorers.
JL
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 10, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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There was no argument. I was echoing and supporting feralfae.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Apr 10, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
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Thank you for your kind comments.
I am going to begin by falling back on my standard "aw,shucks' stance: I am just a simple person, a potter, who milked cows as a youngster and at one time knew how to handle a team during haying season. That being said . . .
more nattering . . .
The "I" we seem to sense within ourselves is, I think, (And here it is difficult to choose a perfect relational phrase) a part of our ego/ a defensive shield behind which our innocent and tender sense of 'oneness' can hide/a structure based on how we perceive ourselves in relation to others; a structure that we begin to build as infants to establish our connectedness with others, while at the same time, perhaps, pulling down bits of our spirit self to use those bits to create the ego structure—which may be a way refusing to be intimidated by "all of it" as we set about declaring our boisterous, awe-struck, wonder-filled, SELF to existence.
For instance, when I come out of flow, I seem to quickly remember things about which I need to hold vigilance, or things which need to be done, people with whom I hope to nurture friendship and/or love. Because of these and other cords tugging at me (at the I), my sense of self shifts from one of being open and trusting to one of being slightly guarded, beset with obligations—usually self-imposed. My—again self-imposed—boundaries, such as the walls of my house, edge of the forest, proper manners, how I identify myself, how I label myself, and how I wish others to see me, are all pieces of that 'I' structure.
In the mountains, it is easier to lose that 'I' and therefore easier to lose sight of boundaries and —at the same time—feel my heart opening in peace and joy. I go farther out and, at the same time, farther in, spiritually speaking.
Maybe everyone's ego/I/sense of separateness arises from their own unique circumstances. It is what gives us the richness of diversity, after all. But I think we all know, down in the depths of our hearts, that we are One with That which communes with us at times of our most open awareness.
Thank you
feralfae
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 11, 2015 - 01:30am PT
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^^^^^^^^
How nice.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 11, 2015 - 06:03am PT
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For all those within driving range of Josh, Gordon's hosting the Tom Gilje fundraiser tonight and since service is part of any practice, I hope to see people there. Now - time for the Zendo...
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 11:17am PT
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Last Installment I think. Been busy with school.
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Wu-wei (pronounced, “ou-way”) is a Chinese notion that is most concerned with virtue. “Wu” is translated as non-being; so wu-wei is the being of non-being, or the action of non-action. The Tao (the way) is meant to provide a path to virtue and morality. How one does that (using wu-wei, anyway) was a topic of controversy between 4 different Chinese masters who wrote about it.
Confucius was first, and he argued that wu-wei would come from much practice, training, and time by studying proper responses to social situations (manners, civilities, dress, music types, and such not). Confucius advised students to polish and carve their behaviors to be at ease (one) within the social world. Laozi was next, but he took the opposite view. Virtue could best be found not through the artifice of practice and polishing of one’s being and character, but by letting go. Perfection is already there in everything; artifice (social learning) simply puts up veils in front of one’s true being. Like Michelangelo, beauty, truth, and ethics are ready to be discovered in any block of stone; it simply needs uncovering. The third and fourth masters (Mencius and Zhuangzi) who wrote about wu-wei continued the vacillation between trying and not trying (although not so starkly). The last guidance that comes out of these conversations is to try and not try--but not too hard.
The Chinese (and later the Japanese) built their religious systems around virtues of naturalness and spontaneity. A “felt success” in life for them was linked to the charisma that one radiates when one is completely at ease, or the effectiveness of being in complete absorption.
Wu-wei exposes a number of natural paradoxes. One conceptual problem lies the notions of virtue and altruism. One cannot be truly altruistic or virtuous if one holds an intention to be altruistic or virtuous. The very effort of trying means that one is not fully or purely altruistic or virtuous. Moreover, one becomes oriented to achieving virtue or altruism. Virtue is supposed to be its own reward; virtue is simply supposed to feel right.
An actor in wu-wei lives in a state of unselfconsciousness. At the center of wu-wei, is “de” (viz., the Tao de Ching). “De” is typically translated as power, charisma or charismatic power—a radiance that others detect, that signals that one is in wu-wei. De has a relaxing effect on others. The power of de is like the North Star: one simply remains in one’s place, invisible, dwelling in dark valleys and pulling everyone else into order. When a person has de, people like him or her, they trust them, and they are relaxed around them.
Wu-wei is about being properly situated in the cosmos, especially an ability to move through the human world with ease. The wu-wei actor naturally finds his or her place within social interactions and shared values. People who act from or out of virtue provide the stable dispositions to perform socially desirable actions for a community, sincerely motivated by the shared values of that community. Wu-wei creates a world without artifice, hypocrisy, or excess desire.
The wu-wei person moves through the open spaces of social life, rather than from known certainty to known certainty. The wu-wei actor side-steps, moves around, or (like the resiliency of bamboo) bends or flows through difficulties that damage the spirit or wears out the body. Allowing things to be, puts one into harmony with the forces around one. Emptying oneself of the self creates a receptive space--an openness--to what situations demand.
Flow, on the other hand, is a little different. Flow is a precise calibration of skill and challenge, which often leads to an ever-increasing spiraling complexity (due to ever-increasing learning or skills). Flow tends to be solitary and aimed at self-improvement, from an almost pure individualistic perspective. (Csikszentmihalyis (the first to write about flow academically) advised it was probably better to lessen the connection between flow and performance. )
Wu-wei works only if one is sincere. A person can attain power only if he or she doesn’t want it.
Wu-wei differs from flow by focusing on the social dimension of spontaneity. Wu-wei occurs only in the service of something bigger, something beyond one’s own narcissistic, rational self-interest. (Only perhaps in a pure stoic sense can “rational self-interest” possibly look like virtue—where one does something because it is simply the most reasonable thing to do.)
In practice, de appears to show itself as a combination of body language, micro-emotional expressions, tone of voice, and general appearance by people who are relaxed, honest, sincere, self-confident, and without guile. In this regard, it recalls some of the things I wrote about earlier about hot vs. cold cognition in neuroscience.
Emotions alone are imperfect signals of people’s intentions or inclinations. Instead, bodies tend to expose the truth of being (see Paul Ekman’s or Joe Navarro’s writings, or watch Woody Allen’s eyebrows). Deception, free riding, and guile are mainly acts of a cold and calculating cognition. Whatever behaviors or signals that people in society can judge authenticity and honest cooperation, those signals need to be difficult to mimic by free riders.
For example, police ask for alibis in reverse order, and as stated earlier, alcohol, dancing, play, singing, etc. are all low-tech, social approaches to produce “downregulations” to discover authenticity. What we want in society are people with no gaps between their actions and motivations. We don’t want extra cold cognition sneaking around with nefarious plans off-stage, especially in our modern Western world of excessive individualism, alienation, and materialism.
David Brooks in the NYTs argued that the celebration of bluntness and straight talking blind us to a moral function of civility and manners (also noted recently here in ST). Indeed, our habits and practices end up shaping the people we are on the inside. Maybe society could use more role-centered, tradition-bound, communitarianism found in Confucianism. It might make cold-cognition (an approved set of behaviors) more reliable socially through practice by making them natural and spontaneous, so that every action would be free and easy, yet perfectly appropriate. Then the conscious mind would let go so that the body would take over. The purpose of cold cognition would simply be to maintain a background situational awareness.
According to Confucius and Mencius, rituals are good (even essential) behavioral training practices. They are means of socialization and institutionalization. For example, social scripting and guided reflections can turn instinctual reflexes into mature reactions, mainly thru stories, art, peer modeling, literature, and through the accumulation of wisdom in old texts. The purpose of that would be to create social cohesion. The arts may be crucial for engendering socially responsible behaviors.
Politically it seems that relationships need to be wu-wei to work properly.
Meditation is one way to downregulate the cold cognition centers of the brain. (A shot of vodka can also be as effective.) Focusing on a skill-relevant environment can facilitate “getting lost” in free play. Having an external focus means tuning-in to other personalities than one’s own mind, into listening closely to the conversations of others rather than one’s own thoughts, and to the body language around happening around oneself. One can be moved by one’s environment rather than trying to control it.
“What should I do?” is most often the same thing as, “how should I control the situation?” Control implies personal will or volition.
Viewed through the lens of meditative states, volition in its noumenal or subjective aspect looks very much to be an urge. According to many contemplatives, sentient beings react rather than act. Living is conditioned by instinct, habit, fashion, etc. Life looks primarily like a series of reflexes. Any apparent entity appears simply lived--a role played by an actor.
If one sees that, as an apparent entity, he or she is “being lived,” then one realizes no harbored intentions. Without intentions, there would be no need to form concepts: a being “is” and simply acts in non-objective relation with all other so-called things. If urges arise independent of deliberate conceptualization, then one can be completely spontaneous. Function-ing is what sentient beings are.
When personal will disappears, spirit rushes in. Willfulness is replaced by a sense of wu-wei. A person feels he or she knows where things are moving to, and he or she feels (rather than thinks) what seems the right thing to do. It is cooperation with the inevitable. One no longer asks about which way is the right way. One gets beyond right and wrong. One doesn’t commit to either. One quits arguing with life and awakens at the level of the gut, simply playing a part in many roles, with full expression.
There is nothing that anyone can do to let go. Letting THAT in, is finally letting go. All holding is futile. Grasping any view makes one blind to everything possible or potential. One perceives from wholeness, without being divided inside.
When in harmony with reality, one experiences bliss. If not, pain.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Apr 13, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Thank you MikeL.
I will no doubt read the above several times.
I already see one point worth discussing further.
thank you
feralfae
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 13, 2015 - 05:29pm PT
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Feralfae:
I'm sure there is much wrong with the writing. It seems fragmented to me. I'm no expert. I liked working on the installments, though. It kinda wrote itself a little bit after I got away from my chicken scratching in a notebook. I like writing because wu-wei shows up for me there (and in my classrooms) sometimes.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Apr 25, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
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Any suggestions or advice if I want to do 2 years of silent meditation on retreat?
"Yeah, well just don't do it by yourself. You really need guidance if you're going to go into a retreat of any significant length. So find a meditation center where they're doing a practice that you really want to do and find a teacher you really admire and who you trust and then follow their instructions. -Sam Harris"
Ask Me Anything #1 podcast...
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/ask-me-anything-1
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Fruity - I think you might be hard pressed to find many on this thread who believe that the experiential adventures are (like most anything else) most effectively leanred in the context of a group, with qualified instructors. Many here bvelieve meditation is basically a kind of mental exercise you do by yourself. Sam knows otherwise because he spent some time early on in a group meditation environment, while the ones railing against formal instruction insist that dropping acid and tripping out in a dep. tank - or just mulling it all over on their own - is just as good, being that all things are equal in the subjective realm - unproven, imgained, woo, feelings, religious, chanting injuns, guru backwash, etc. All the wonky stuff folks project on practice.
That consciousness work is ruled by its own set of laws is made clear to all who have been told to sit down and follow their breath only to find their attention wanders to whatever qualia has the strongest attraction. We are all clueless till we "shut up, get still and stop evaluating (calculating)."
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 12, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
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I’m not young, and I think I qualify as old now. ((That’s weird.))
Has anyone noticed how experience has become more dimensional, more poignant, more intricate than it seemed to be? Perhaps this is a place where I’m at. Great intention and autonomous purpose have started to leave me—and without them both, I find that everything is more poetic.
Age is somethin’ else.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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May 13, 2015 - 09:30am PT
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I haven't read this whole thread so I hope I'm not bringing up something that has already been talked about. I tried vainly to meditate for many years and just couldn't seem to make it work. Then, my wife recently gave me the book 10% Happier by Dan Harris. His look at it from an almost cynical point of view and defining the setbacks he went through helped me come to an epiphany of sorts. I realized that all of the times that I thought I was failing were just the normal hurdles at the beginning of trying to meditate. I was making progress, I just didn't know that I was and so I gave up. Now I am trying again and the baby steps are just starting to work.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 13, 2015 - 11:57am PT
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The whole "progress" concept is a difficult issue in meditation. In the Heart Sutra there is a key line that says " no attainment with nothing to attain".
This line points at this need to have progress to get something from your meditation. what wants progress? Yes John Gill it is "I" that wants progress.
The other wonderful questions that then come up are ; what is progress? and why would that be considered progress?
Progress is what "I" wants; so it all comes back to what is "I".
Two female zen masters are giving a talk at empty gate tonight in berkeley 7 PM.
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pa
climber
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May 14, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
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MikeL,
what do you mean by "more dimensional, more intricate"..?
I am curious, because "experience ", that is, my perception of what impinges on me, has changed...over time and over "a little death"...but it is hard to put into words.
There is an increasing alertness to what surrounds me, to what I perceive, to what I receive.
The five senses are sharper and more distinct, yet (or because of it), they blend into each other...becoming one colossal flavor, something on the tongue and of the heart.
And when they do, a quality of translucence, of evanescence invades the "experience"...the more commonplace the experience, the more acutely evanescent the reception. Reminds me of light shimmering through a spider's web: so marvelously real and so intangible.
...just wondering if what you are experiencing is somewhat similar...or is it just that "all the king's horses and all the king's men, couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again"...?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 15, 2015 - 09:58am PT
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That’s some great description, Pa. These days I (and you?) have new appreciation for poetry.
Like I said, when the needs to achieve, define, and *find* things begins to leave or dissipate, then THIS gets infinitely richer. I look at things with much more curiosity—not that I want to do anything about them, though. Just curious.
Noticing seems to be the complete practice.
I was sitting this morning noticing that all sensation is poignant, indescribable, and as full as one could note. As my legs (in a pretzel) began to yell at me, a sense of sadism arose. Weird, but oddly delicious. It made me laugh.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 15, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
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So I went to listen to the talk by zen masters Soeng Hyang and Bon Shim (both women). Bon Shim is visiting SF from poland.
So they went to the Japanese tea garden in GG park and at the entrance was a group of school kids about to enter and the teacher told them to "be Zen" just before they walked in. This made the two Zen Masters laugh and ask the question (to themselves) what is it to be Zen?
It's not being quiet or reverent or respectful; it is just being in the moment at the tea garden hearing the birds , smelling the flowers; nothing special.
ZMBS talked about when ZM Seung Sahn first came to poland in 1992; still under soviet occupation, that things were very difficult in poland and people were very hungry for zen teaching. They had to rent theaters because 600 + people would show up for his talks.
I think the soviets let him in because they saw Zen as atheist and no threat.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 15, 2015 - 04:46pm PT
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It's funny the whole idea of what it is to be "Zen," a whopper of a question because Zen has no content ergo assigns no particular being state over any other being state or non-state. But for most folks, being Zen is tied to Japanese protocols and affectations.
I related earlier the first time I wittnessed a tea ceremony at the LA Zen Center and watched for what seemed like forever this fussy woman monk cocking around with a bunch of elaborate and mannered hand motions till I (then 18) couldn't stand this jive kabuki and aksed if we were going to ever actually drink the tea of if the monk was going to keep fiddling.
This was an extreme breech of decorum, except for the Sensai who was then my teacher, who knew that favoring the mannered Japanese shenanagans over the bumbling gringo's (me) impudence was not Zen, which on some idea level shows no preference.
In the recovery movement they say that the most benificial meetings are the ones fraught with tension and agruments because they give all present a chance to use their tools.
Every sailor is an expert in calm seas.
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 15, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
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Yes John Gill it is "I" that wants progress
Is this sinful?
Perhaps in meditative practice.
Went to town today in my horse and carriage. Whoops . . . I mean my car.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 15, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
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As much as some praise this thread, I find it rather narrow and insipid. There is more to heaven and earth than the mere imaginings of the pundits of outdated conceptualizations. I'm a cowboy, riding on the range, why should I imagine otherwise? Mind you, that does not mean that I think we should all be cowboys. I like going into town and saying hi to the grocer and the police man.I will probably get up in the morning and delete this post after I wipe the crust out of my eyes. My goal in my quiet times has not been nothingness, but rather everythingness.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 15, 2015 - 10:22pm PT
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Hey, narrow and insipid is what it’s all about, . . . for a while. Then you start to see things about consciousness. I refer you to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls
As a cowboy, you should appreciate the down-home, folksy wisdom of just being yourself, saying "hi" to the grocer and police man, going into town, chopping wood, and carrying water.
There’s no more to heaven or earth than any of that.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 15, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
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As a cowboy, you should appreciate the down-home, folksy wisdom of just being yourself, saying "hi" to the grocer and police man, going into town, chopping wood, and carrying water.
I like going into town and saying hi to the grocer and the police man.
Thanks for the confirmation, but I find the added modifiers about folksy and down home a bit revealing. That's cool, I like your perspective(s), MikeL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 16, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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Wayno:
My apologies. I meant folksy as in “non-intellectual” and common-sense. I tend to be overly intellectual at times (working on that).
When I go home to see my Mom, we just sit in the same room with each other and say very little to each other. We just sit, maybe watch the news, hang out. There seems to be nothing to do and nowhere to go when we are together. It’s perfection, really.
After running a family of ten, my mother seems very wise and observant. She understands peace.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 16, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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I should also apologize, Mike. I should probably delete my post but I will let it stand. I try to be positive but sometimes I fall short.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 18, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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Yes John Gill it is "I" that wants progress
Is this sinful?
Perhaps in meditative practice.
No not a sin, just an insight. But it (perceiving what "I" is, or asking what "I" is) is a crux of the Zen or buddhist meditation path; if you veer off on the checking and trying for progress path you are chasing your tail . You are no longer questioning what "I" is but you are "I" trying to achieve something. A dualistic oriented meditation practice.
Self improvement rather than self realization.
this is the big difference between buddhist meditation practice and secular mindfulness practice that is poping up everywhere.
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pa
climber
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May 18, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
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What is "a sin"?
I believe it was Sri Nisargadatta Maharahaj who said the only sin is that which binds us.
And, indeed, the "I" does have us all wrapped up in loops...
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 11:35am PT
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Consciousness seems to be a kind of heads-up display—a complex interaction of projection and reception. Getting a glimpse of that can suggest to one that no matter what the content of the display is (e.g., seeing this, hearing that, touching this, tasting that, thinking those thoughts, etc.), all content is invariably the same thing—just a display. This implies that “content” is illusory.
So, what IS happening? The display or manifestation is what’s happening. (What goes on in any narrative is also happening, but it’s not quite right to say that the narrative is either real or not real.)
Why? How?
It is impossible to say, exactly.
What one might say is that there appears to be infinite intelligence at work. For example, when one walks into a room, or sits still, or falls off a cliff, bits and pieces of a scene (experience) do not arise and come together piece-by-piece. Instead, a pure display (of all senses) occurs instantaneously (but even this term seems to suggest a lag or a cause-and-effect chain of events). If a person were to notice, each and every moment is infinitely full, holistic, holographic, detailed, multi-dimensional, and NOW.
Philosophically, one could argue that either the external (and internal) world is complete, singular, detailed, and connected (and mind merely mirrors it); or one could argue that the mind is doing / creating all of it on its own. Neither explanation suffices (so far, at least).
First, there has yet to be found a fundamental basis for everything externally that connects to an internal perception that is seamless.
Second, theorizing that the mind (brain?) moment-to-moment constructs an infinitely dynamic, detailed, and holistic presentation of a (unique) world seems to require more horsepower and bandwidth than anything that we can currently conceive for human consciousness. (Some masters have suggested a combination of the two, but I suspect those are compromises and metaphorical attempts to provide solace for an infinitely ambiguous situation.)
Intelligence is about the only term that can be used to suggest how the experience of Everything Now happens—faster than instantaneous; holographic; infinitely detailed yet holistic. Intelligence is more than “smarts” or IQ. Intelligence could be said to be what This IS.
It’s not just simply that all things must come together on all levels or even at some deep fundamental level to experience and explain reality. There can be no “things.” There must be and can be only one thing, just one fact—and that fact must be infinitely simple and infinitely pervasive. IT is doing itself. Consciousness is becoming aware of consciousness. IT’s an unfoldment of awareness. . . nothing but now (whatever NOW is).
We cannot put off living until we are ready. The most salient characteristic of life is its urgency, 'here and now' without any possible postponement. Life is fired at us point-blank. (Jose Ortega y Gasset)
I’d say that letting-go is how IT shows up, but letting-go is not something that can be DONE (although practicing heuristics can help). Instead, “noticing” seems to be the practice. The more one notices, the more one notices, and on and on. Letting-go is what then tends to result, and when it does, then freedom, intense awareness, display-as-display (sans “content”) spontaneity, openness, unity, and the recognition of “absence” also show up.
Meditation is a pathway because it is a practice of noticing. As the Zen folks say, meditation IS enlightenment. There is no end state.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 19, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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My goal in my quiet times has not been nothingness, but rather everythingness.
What makes you think they are different non-things?
And conceptulizatioins? What is going on BEFORE these arise. And where do they go once you are bored with them or your attention wanders?
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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What makes you think they are different non-things?
I'm not sure what you are asking here.
Nothingness and my made up term everythingness were used in relating to my goals in stillness, conceptualizations used to express a contrast. I'm not saying I think they are different non-things. I don't quite grasp this concept of non-things and the importance you attach to it but I try anyway. And what makes me think anything is always a good question.
And conceptulizatioins? What is going on BEFORE these arise. And where do they go once you are bored with them or your attention wanders?
I don't get this one either. I think you are assuming some things here, or maybe you are just making some generalizations based on my statement. When you say, "you" do you mean me or "you" collectively. If you mean me, then how do you know that I get bored with them and my attention wanders? Even so, is that some kind of mistake?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 19, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
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And conceptulizatioins? What is going on BEFORE these arise. And where do they go once you are bored with them or your attention wanders?
Good question. Please provide your answer.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 19, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
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And conceptulizatioins? What is going on BEFORE these arise. And where do they go once you are bored with them or your attention wanders?
Good question. Please provide your answer.
The "answer" with any and all of the experiential adventures has, is, and never will be a objective thing or concept you can wrangle. That is what science does so brilliantly. Objctify and evaluate. But with this realm, once you objectify you have defaulted out of the experience into conceptualizations.
Your "answer" is provided by your direct participation in the experiential adventures, by following the basic credo to "shut up and quit calculating (objectifying)."
In other words, never take any one else's word for this material when you can find out for yourself.
As far as "getting bored with any thought and having your attention wander," when you spend decades in a meditation environment the one thing you know as an absolute fact is that no one's attention is immune from wandering and no mind NEVER gets bored or impatient or fed up with even the most luminous thought or experience. The whole shizzle is always in flux and you learn, after much practice, to pay attention and just surf with it.
What people need to keep in mind is that when you are just getting your feet wet with this material, your Inner Critic (Superego in the old lingo) might constantly tell you that you are doing something wrong, or that someone is berating you or judging you or misinterpreting you and all that jive. This is what in the recovery movement they call being "bound by self."
The practice is to not try and make the Critic go away, but to keep asking: Who feels offended? Who is feeling judged? What is the fundamental nature of this "I" who feels judged, slighted, ignorant, defensive, and so forth.
Once we can move past content, even an inch, all of those questions and concerns become no more important or meaningful than a dog barking in an alley.
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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What people need to keep in mind is that when you are just getting your feet wet with this material, your Inner Critic (Superego in the old lingo) might constantly tell you that you are doing something wrong, or that someone is berating you or judging you or misinterpreting you and all that jive. This is what in the recovery movement they call being "bound by self."
So what you are saying is that if you feel berated or judged or misinterpreted constantly then it is because you are just getting your feet wet with this stuff and your mind is playing tricks on you? What if you only feel that way sometimes with only certain people you might encounter and you are merely trying to discern their motivation? What if you seek clarification and just get more confused? Is your mind playing tricks or are you just talking to an intellectual bully. What if you are not new at all to this stuff but just have a different approach that really was misunderstood and in the process, you didn't feel it worth your effort to un-marginalize.
Largo, I'm just trying to grasp not only what you are saying but why. I don't disagree with your perspective because it is just that, a perspective. I just wonder if you could dumb it down for me. I don't have the same education or opportunities as you but I am curious and I do have questions. If you think that my questions are worthless, then fine, avoid them and carry on with you are doing and I will leave it alone.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 19, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
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I don't disagree with your perspective because it is just that, a perspective.
In a better world, more people would have this perspective.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 19, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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Largo, I'm just trying to grasp not only what you are saying but why. I don't disagree with your perspective because it is just that, a perspective.
-
I think that this thread has done pretty well to avoid personal accusations or guff or any of the interpersonal static that can come up in the process of investigating this very slippery material. I would encourage you to entertain the idea that the generic things that Mike or PPSP or others who have spend years with this work are not offering mere "perspectives," any more than a person saying one plus two equals three is offering a "perspective."
There ARE objective, generic truths in this work, as there are in any practice. In the experiential adventures, said truths are often less about the content or the answers that you might come across and experience, and rather have to do with the actual practice itself.
Asserting that everyone's mind wanders, that breathing is part of the practice, that posture counts for something, that detachment is essential, that fusing with content (thoughts, feelings, memories, etc.) is common for us all, that no-mind is hard to define and harder to maintain, etc, - this is not "bullying," but merely passing on info that is common to all paths.
Another objective fact is that many people enter into the practice looking for an argument. I did. Till Sensai Tehshin told me I was absolutely right - and now that was over, who was I, really?
Point is, the more we make it about the people, the less we are focused on the work itself. The best questions, the ones that can most benefit people are in my experience not about what this or that means, but rather they pertain to the craft or technical aspects of meditation itself. How to do it, in other words.
So if you are seeking clarification on something, why not toss it out there and see what people say. I have no exclusive on the "right" answer and you might be able to hear someone else better than you can hear me or Mike or whoever. And there's no telling if I actually know anything useful per your questions. But I trust in the spirit of openness and good will that if you clearly state an honest question, fruitful discussion will quickly follow.
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 11:11pm PT
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O.K. fair enough. Promise not to laugh? ;)
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 11:34pm PT
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Wayno:
What can you lose?
PSP might be better than me here. I don’t much want to talk about me, you, or others (the intrusion of the “I.”)
“Everythingness” tends to signal an attempt towards inclusiveness, as if higher states of consciousness includes more breadth. From my view, it’s not an inclusiveness of vision that is experienced but rather increasing intensity of awareness of what IT is. You can turn your head around on your shoulders and see more, sure. But looking closely at anything, by my observations, brings unending worlds upon worlds (up, down, sideways, and multi-dimensionally). When that is seen / understood / perceived, then the “thing’ness” in “everything” starts to disappear. Hence, no-thing or emptiness in the object of attention, and in the attendee. At that moment, the you or “I” is no more of interest or a basis for view in any narrative that the mind can create. Stories and thing’ness fall away. I can’t explain it very well.
On the other hand, if the “everything” you refer to is that which cannot be labeled / defined / determined because of its irresolvability, then I think you may be saying “one” rather than “every” thing. That is, what THAT points to does not seem to be an everything. It seems to be a no-thing: not an object; no some thing that can be defined.
Yours here can be a useful conversation for all of us because it makes us consider whether we should be giving much thought to ourselves in these situations of spiritual development. If we do, then the conversation ends up being about us, ultimately. Wrestling with that, at some point, we may experience a brief moment of a lock-up of our mind. Everything stops for a moment. And there IT is.
The “I” of you, me, Largo, and others seems to be a waste time and effort. We’re spinning yarns or building sandcastles. Those efforts really seem to go nowhere, into a black hole; they take us away from simply noticing.
“Can’t I notice that X is a jerk?”
Of course you can. But that is really not of much importance; it’s a veil in front of reality. That’s: YOUR . . . COMPLAINT . . . about . . . X. When you focus on those things, then I’d say you’re in the weeds. The issue isn’t much of anything. What IS seems to be bereft of all that baggage.
If you don’t mind a thought from me, I’d suggest you talk about your experience here. Talk about what you’re seeing. Say what you know. What you know is what you experience. (That is pure, isn’t it?) What do you see? What do you know? What is your experience (when, for example, it comes to meditation?).
If you were a practitioner of Zen, you might have hard complaints about how its teachers can ride roughshod over students—and you’d be absolutely right. It would also be irrelevant (and actually a part of your training). I think it was Phillip Kapleau in The Three Pillars of Zen who recounts how much it bothered him to bow before his teacher at the beginning of every meditation session—and how much his teacher was aware of it and would inwardly smile. It was exactly what Kapleau needed. In certain forms of Tibetan Buddhism, practitioners look for and use what is most uncomfortable in order to learn about themselves, about reality, compassion, and emptiness. Those situations that drive us the most crazy are said to be the best places to practice. Spiritual paths do not take one to warm, fuzzy, optimistic, beautiful places in heaven. Those are pipe (and marketers’) dreams. (In Tibet, some of the best practicing places are the charnel grounds.)
Certain Tibetans’ practices entail stripping the content away from uncomfortable experiences to access the energy (tantra) so that practitioners can surf that energy as Gods, to realize their godhood (of which they already are). (See any of Pema Chodron’s little books; they are wonderful on these topics that touch our fears, anger, jealousy, sadness, etc.)
Be well.
EDIT: I was just thinking this morning about all the thoughts here on ST about Potter and Hunt recently, and how their deaths have given rise to great feelings about what it means to live in the moment. Those interpretations are interesting and seemingly provide meaning, but it might be instead the energy that arises in our experiences that might be the real gold in the ore. It's the energy that makes us more aware of being rather than the stories.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
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If you don’t mind a thought from me, I’d suggest you talk about your experience here. Talk about what you’re seeing. Say what you know. What you know is what you experience. (That is pure, isn’t it?) What do you see? What do you know? What is your experience (when, for example, it comes to meditation?).
I don't mind but no thanks, I'm too shy about that. I'll shut up now. It is very likely that I would try to make up a bunch of cool sounding stuff anyway. ;D
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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Ok. :-)
(No matter what, . . . we're just talking here, ya know?)
Don't be a stranger.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 20, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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Wayno, how do you know to be shy? What IS shy? How do you experience it? How does it feel in your body? Where IS it? What happens if you detach from "shy" and watch it? Who or what is watching? When watching shy, how is it that shy has more power over you then the sounds in the room?
Because shy is where you place your attention.
Shift your attention and you are no longer at the total mercy of shy.
Thing is, we get attached to our internal rulers (strongest feelings, memories, ideas, etc). For some it is women, climbing, anger, resentment - or "shy." We all have something. As Mike said, if you see clearly, there is no baggage. That's something extra we do ourselves. Shy don't live out there somewhere. It's an inside job.
And of course all of this is MUCH easier said than done...
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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I'm actually not unfamiliar with some of the practices mentioned here. I first took up the practice as a teen after reading Sri Chinmoy. I had some astounding experiences. At one point I met Chinmoy and even received prasad from him. Then I studied native American practices and met some folks from the Apache and Mayan people that taught me some things. When I climbed a lot, I had some strange mystical experiences that led me to study some of the classic mystical literature available at the time. I studied a lot of different disciplines and tried a few but I never joined any groups or organizations that were devoted to one outlook. I even meditated with some Buddhists from Tibet that could not even speak English. we could not talk about their practice but they did share some amazing things. This is when I got on the path I am following today.
There is no name or organization to call it. It is just a group of like minded individuals from different paths that have discovered each other in this, our adventure. We come from all over the world and find ourselves connected in some kind of synchronistic way that I find difficult to express. Sound Mystical? Twenty years ago I would have called it that but I don't see mysticism in the same light anymore. I don't know what to call it and I don't see a need to call it anything but a synthesis. You can call it what you would like.
So I am familiar with with a lot of the classic disciplines and I can easily quiet the mind, in meditation and in normal conscious daily living and that is no longer a goal but a rather just another "thing" to put in my bag of tricks. Tricks? YES, tricks. because I claim no other source than my vivid imagination. But what starts with imagination can, with the proper feedback, develop into real growth of the soul. Not mind expansion, but soul growth. They do go hand in hand but they are not the same thing.
My choice of terminology is strictly subjective, so be wary of projecting a meaning that wasn't intended. I feel that terminology can be like large stones in a farmers field that if you run over them too many times you have to fix your tractor.
So I guess what I am talking about isn't really meditation but meditation is a part of it. Perhaps the "inner life" would be a better descriptor. What think you?
Edit- I missed your above post as I was writing this one, John. The shy thing was a small joke as you can now see. I just imagine you see me as some kind of noob that has no experience to match yours and that you feel a need to educate me or set me straight. I read what you say above and go, 'Duh". I see what you are saying and I agree with most of it and I understand that perhaps my choice of wording has given you an impression that I am not entirely comfortable with. I'll get over it. I'm not mad or frustrated and I will be nice and I will learn and I will grow, as always, forever. I am not stuck in one place wondering where I went wrong and If I wanted advice I would have asked for it. It is not the content, it is the tone. Educators.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 20, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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Wayno - I think the confusion came from you saying: " I am curious and I do have questions." Quite naturally people were willing to say what they thought might help per those questions. No one is trying to educate you. As they say in the work: Take what you want and leave the rest. That's what I do.
JL
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 20, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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I asked Maggie dog
why do you sit there silent?
all she said was Mu.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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^^^^^^^
+1. Great.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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John, I was just trying to understand what you were saying. I quoted you and was asking about what you said as I didn't think I quite understood you. Although I am curious and do have questions in general, that statement was directed at trying to clarify what you had said, before going off half-cocked as we all sometimes do. I apologize for this awkward exchange as I truly respect what I think you have to say. I just don't have the same way as you and I was looking for common ground. I can't automatically come over to your level of thought by mere intention. You have a base of knowledge that is extensive and I'm sure hard-won and certainly valid and I hope that WE can find that common ground and not get hung up on the words or the emotions. In my experience, good conversation requires some ground work and a desire for mutual benefit.
Now back to this Thingless-thing you keep talking about.;) How tangible do you see it, and does that matter to you? Is it like the question that seeks no answer, just it's own existence. I sense a paradox. I love a good paradox.
Warning: I threw a little humor in there in an attempt to balance the seriousness of my question.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 20, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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she said Mu...not glue.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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Something smells Wroughten in Denmark.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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Let us see if we can find a common metaphor.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
How about that one?
I had a dream that I woke up. It was a dream.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 20, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
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Now back to this Thingless-thing you keep talking about.;) How tangible do you see it, and does that matter to you? Is it like the question that seeks no answer, just it's own existence. I sense a paradox. I love a good paradox.
What do you mean by "tangible." Do you mean material, stuff you can get hold of with your hands? Your experience of pleasure from eating ice cream or a burrito or prawns or whatever is not tangible in the normal sense of the word (some physical thing you can grab and measure and evaluate), but it nevertheless is very real in your experience.
To get a feel for no-thing, consider this thought experiment:
Normal perception works on the principal of figure and ground, to use the old Gestalt language. This operates according to how we toggle our focus, much as we do with the lens of a camera. We keep zooming in and zooming out on whatever we are focused on, whatever we put out "attention" on, meaning attention follows focus. For example, we can't keep our attention on the cat when we are focused on the TV.
In short, whatever we focus on is the "figure," or the "thing" we are focused upon. The rest of reality is the "ground," or background, which is all the peripheral stuff (people, places, things and phenomenon) in our field of awareness.
To experience no-thing, flip the background (think "space") so it is now the figure, and all the things are ground. That is, keep your focus on infinity, NOT concentrating on any specific thing.
Note how fast your attention will automatically glom onto a thing (thought, feeling, etc) and how your focus will zoom in. Holding an open focus is a practice. Nobody in the history of the world can hold an open focus for long without practice, since we evolved to narrow focus for survival.
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
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O. K. I understand your example of the thought experiment and yes, I have successfully practiced such techniques, so yes the word "tangible" in that regard is probably a poor choice of words. Let me try to think of a better way to ask that. I guess we should make a distinction between this state of mind and the significance one attaches to it when they are not in that state. I'm not even sure that what you are talking about is something you would call a state of mind. Is it? I'm one of those guys that think that not all reality is material and can be experienced with the senses. But in my experience the mind can and does experience a reality not connected to sensory input but some kind of information nonetheless that the mind can experience and process in a useful and perhaps meaningful manner. Is this the Separate Reality of Don Juan? (I know, that's fiction) Or is the separation an illusion? Is it just a matter of what we choose to pay attention to not?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 20, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
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It is about attachment. Once you become attached to something it starts to take over your perception. Learning to let go of things you experience is what the practice is about.
Carlos Castaneda borrowed the concept of controlled folly.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 20, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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I think that this thread has done pretty well to avoid personal accusations or guff or any of the interpersonal static that can come up in the process of investigating this very slippery material(JL)
This is true, and I think the reason is that experienced meditators here provide information about the processes, techniques and various meditative paths along with personal experiences. They do not attempt to interpret their experiences as metaphysical theory. That is more appropriate to the other two threads.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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May 20, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
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Meditation is simply the opposite of Prayer.
you send signals up, you wait for the reply,
to hear the reply, you have to turn off the squirrel cage called self.
some folks hold their palms up like antennas,
don't put yourself in physical pain while meditating, that is just corny,
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 21, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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Lovegasoline: I believe It's worth digging a little deeper to understand the variety of often very subtle interpretive biases - cultural, ideological, philosophical, and soteriological - and discussing them.
Thanks for your erudite posts. I enjoyed reading them. You seem to be pointing out how spiritual traditions becomes en vogue.
However, I think they may be particularly cognitive and interpretative. They may be a form of yarn-spinning.
Buddhism has been imported / exported more than once, and every time it was (or was essentially forced to), it changed and seemed to have gained new life. Some would suggest that is a form of growth and evolution. If consciousness is becoming conscious of itself, then one should think change and impermanence are to be expected. The new will displace the old. Looking at the new through old frameworks may well give rise to cynicism, which tends to be a form of critique.
On the other hand, there is no need to get involved in any interpretation or criticism when WHAT is right in front of one is all that there is. One can then recognize “self-liberation.”
——————
"...The particular method of Dzogchen is called the Path of Self-Liberation, and to apply it nothing need be renounced, purified, or transformed. Whatever arises as one's karmic vision is used as the path. The great master Pha Tampa Sangye [South Indian Yogin of the 11 century (ed.)] once said: It is not the circumstances which arise as one's karmic vision that condition a person into the dualistic state; it is a person's own attachment that enables what arises to condition him. If this attachment is to be cut through in the most rapid and effective way, the mind's spontaneous capacity to self-liberate must be brought into play. The term self-liberation should not, however, be taken as implying that there is some 'self' or ego there to be liberated. It is a fundamental assumption...at the Dzogchen level, that all phenomena are void of selfnature. 'Self -Liberation', in the Dzogchen sense, means that whatever manifests in the field of experience of the practitioner is allowed to arise just as it is, without judgement of it as good or bad, beautiful or ugly. And in that same moment, if there is no clinging, or attachment, without effort, or even volition, whatever it is that arises, whether as a thought or as a seemingly external event, automatically liberates itself, by itself, and of itself. Practicing in this way the seeds of the poison tree of dualistic vision never even get a chance to sprout, much less to take root and grow.
So the practitioner lives his or her life in an ordinary way, without needing any rules other than one's own awareness, always remaining in the primordial state through integrating that state with whatever arises as part of experience -- with absolutely nothing to be seen outwardly to show that one is practicing. This is what is meant by self-liberation, this is what is meant by the name Dzogchen - which means Great Perfection - and this is what is meant by non-dual contemplation, or simply contemplation....
(Dzogchen teacher, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche)
———————————
"Self-liberation and liberation upon arising are not characteristics of thought; they are what happens when the nature of thought is recognized. So it’s not the case that you either recognize the self-liberation or don’t; self-liberation is the result of recognition. Normally, thoughts are anything but self-liberated. A thought arises, and it takes us over, and that produces another thought, and so on. On the basis of these thoughts, we generate further confused projections, on the basis of which we experience pleasure and pain. Now, when the nature of a thought is recognized, what happens to that thought is very much like, as is traditionally said, what happens when a snake untangles or unties the knots it’s tied itself into. The snake does it itself; no one has to come along and help the snake out. In the same way, when you look at the thought directly, for example, a thought of anger, and you see its nature, then the thought does not generate a further thought; the anger is not prolonged. As soon as the nature is seen, at that moment, the poisonous quality of the anger just disappears and dissolves; and that is self-liberation or liberation upon arising."
(Thrangu Rinpoche, "Pointing Out the Dharmakaya”)
—————————
Even these are interpretations . . . even these are unnecessary.
Be well.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 21, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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. . . it's useful from time to time to undertake a secondary inquiry and examine the whole enchilada to consider how the practice functions, what it's uses are, and how it's applied to the larger matrix of one's life (LG)
That's not metaphysics. And IMHO entirely appropriate for this thread. However, for instance, the idea that the "emptiness" one experiences as a meditator coincides with virtual particles in physics is, and belongs on the other threads. That's all I meant.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 23, 2015 - 10:59pm PT
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Sheryl Sandberg’s “Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead” applies to everyone.
Everything takes care of itself.
I just watched Eastwood’s sniper movie this Memorial Weekend, and I relate. Life does stuff to you, and you change and get maimed. The movie engineers moments that take me away where there are grand right and wrongs, where everything requires involvement.
Gripping stories, but none so remarkable as the one I find myself in. Nothing is quite real.
It's quite ok. There is a sense of free-falling freedom. Things are coming at me at just about what I can handle.
I wish I were younger. Challenges have become beautiful dancing partners.
Life is a movie in slow motion. Each of us is the most fascinating character in it. (Oh, geez.)
The movie on war this Memorial Day weekend reminds me how important it is to ease up a bit. Try to relax.
Lean-in . . . and ease up.
Trying to figure what THIS is all about is a waste of time and energy.
There are no choices in anything.
You just surf.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 24, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
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Trying to figure what THIS is all about is a waste of time and energy. There are no choices in anything
The death knell of free will . . .
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Do not think that enlightenment is going to make you special, it’s not. If you feel special in any way, then enlightenment has not occurred. I meet a lot of people who think they are enlightened and awake simply because they have had a very moving spiritual experience. They wear their enlightenment on their sleeve like a badge of honor. They sit among friends and talk about how awake they are while sipping coffee at a cafe. The funny thing about enlightenment is that when it is authentic, there is no one to claim it. Enlightenment is very ordinary; it is nothing special. Rather than making you more special, it is going to make you less special. It plants you right in the center of a wonderful humility and innocence. Everyone else may or may not call you enlightened, but when you are enlightened the whole notion of enlightenment and someone who is enlightened is a big joke. I use the word enlightenment all the time; not to point you toward it but to point you beyond it. Do not get stuck in enlightenment.
(Adyashanti)
Be well,
:-)
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I can't remember where but I read once that when you are enlightened, everyone else is enlightened too. Or something like that.
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Does anyone else experience a physical sense of mental space when meditating?
I have been meditating for a couple of years now and am beginning to physically feel an open uncluttered feeling of space in my mind.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Does anyone else experience a physical sense of mental space when meditating?
Yeah, kinda. It's a real bummer though, when the garbage truck outside crashes the bins and the noise makes all that wonderful space collapse in an instant. Back to square one.
But seriously, I think that feeling is one of those experiences that keeps us coming back for more. There is a sense of peace there that is quite profound.
Try moving around in that space and maybe put some furniture in there and invite some guests. The fun never ends.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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"Yeah, kinda. It's a real bummer though, when the garbage truck outside crashes the bins and the noise makes all that wonderful space collapse in an instant. Back to square one."
I sat retreat last month and just as the retreat started with 20 plus of us sitting the neighbor starts jack hammering his patio. I found it hilarious but felt sorry for anyone thinking meditation should be done in a quiet environment. I have been sitting city located retreats for many years so have always had various noise happening at all different levels from raging mentally ill, to the geese across the street, to the guy that plays drums everyday for a few hours. One of the easiest and most effective ways to meditate is to just listen while you sit. And as you get better at "just listening " you will have a better chance of "just listening " (without judgement) outside of the meditation room.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I once read of a Zen meditation hall where the Zen master intentionally kept a pack of dogs underneath the meditation area.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I found it hilarious but felt sorry for anyone thinking meditation should be done in a quiet environment.
Is this where your practice has gotten you? lol.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I found it hilarious but felt sorry for anyone thinking meditation should be done in a quiet environment.
Is this where your practice has gotten you? lol.
I had a sense of humor about the jackhammer and empathy for those that didn't.
How can practice get you somewhere? Moment to moment is where you are. Practice getting you somewhere is an illusion.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I apologize. I'm just not that evolved. And I'm not Zen either. I'm not even sure I would want to be. Comparison is the thief of joy.
I have actually thought about deleting all my posts on this thread. I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm just going to sniff some glue with Locker.
I'm not digging what I hath wrought.
Especially that time I tried to meditoot while running naked through a patch of nettles on mushrooms.
Just kidding. Dude, You're Golden.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Wayno: It's a real bummer though, when the garbage truck outside crashes the bins and the noise makes all that wonderful space collapse in an instant. Back to square one.
Sure, that happens. :-) It’s kinda funny, isn’t it?
I get that where I live in a downtown high rise. We have lots of construction going on here in Seattle these days. A few months ago, I counted 28 cranes at work in the downtown area. They’re tearing up the streets all over the place, putting up towers, burying lines, hauling dirt in big long trucks, and what not. Then there are the ambulance drivers, firemen, and police who turn their sirens on when heading out for donuts. Drivers down on the streets get incensed at the traffic (it can take me 25 minutes to get out of the downtown area at the wrong time of day), and their honking regularly getting their frustrations out. So when I sit in the morning, there’s always something that’s arising in consciousness.
Everything is practice—or noticing.
If you sit in the quietest room made, or in the darkest room possible, or lay in a sensory deprivation tank, you continue to get full-on experience. Experience can’t be turned off, even when you’re asleep or under surgery. I go to New York, Tokyo, school, or close myself into a basement at midnight with no lights on, and experience is ON.
It’s not what you’re sitting in around you that’s worth noting. It’s the noticing that’s worth noticing.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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You know Mike, since you are in Seattle, you should join us(Seattle supertopo wining and dining group) and share some of the good times. Or let's just have a beer sometime.
Wayno
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Just sent you an email. Cool.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 14, 2015 - 11:38pm PT
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My little insight in my teaching in business is how I talk about (i) a firm's performance and (ii) descriptions of “what is” (a firm’s approach to its environment). Both of those tell us everything we need to know. The rest is not knowledge, but it might be insight from our models. But those models do not stipulate what we should do. That takes a vision, and we all can have our own. What would that be?
Are we in synch with reality? It’s a dance. How well can we dance? Are we moving forward, backward, side-to-side with what draws us forward and pushes us back?
It’s like movement on stone, this perfect give-and-take with everything.
If we could just relax.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2015 - 10:49am PT
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Here is a really well spoken interview about Buddhism and psychedelics from Kokyo Henkels facebook site. Alot of clear simple teaching/statements. Enjoy!
BUDDHISM AND THE PSYCHEDELIC SOCIETY
Interview with Terence McKenna for Zig Zag Zen
ALLAN BADINER: You have emerged as the leading spokesperson for the use of psychedelics. What is the history of your encounter with Buddhism?
TERENCE MCKENNA: Like so many people in the sixties, I came up through D. T. Suzuki’s books on Zen, which were very popular at a certain point. And then early on because of my art historical bent, I became interested in Tibetan Buddhism. But my interest was not exactly Buddhism. It was more the shamanic pre-Buddhist Tibet phenomenon of the Bön religion—which grew out of the shamanic culture of pre-Buddhist Tibet. I found among Tibetan Buddhists a lot of prejudice against the Bön. They were definitely second-class citizens inside theocratic Tibet, and they still are.
BADINER: Buddhist practice didn’t attract you?
MCKENNA: Buddhist psychology was very interesting to me. I came to it through the works of Herbert Günther, who was a Heideggerian originally, and then found Mahayana thought parallel to his Heideggerianism. I was influenced by a book called Tibetan Buddhism Without Mystification, published later as Treasures of the Tibetan Middle Way, which contrasted paradoxically differing schools of Buddhist thought; Nagarjuna’s writings on nothingness were also a big influence.
BADINER: What did you make of the Abhidhamma—the psychological com- ponent of Buddhist teaching?
MCKENNA: The Buddhist style of talking about the constructs of the mind is now a universalist style. The puzzle to me is how Buddhism achieves all of this without psychedelics; not only how but why, since these dimensions of experience seem fairly easily accessed, given hallucinogenic substances and plants, and excruciatingly rare and unusual by any other means.
BADINER: How would Buddhism fit into your notion of the psychedelic society
that you often talk about?
MCKENNA: Well, compassion is the central moral teaching of Buddhism and, hope- fully, the central moral intuition of the psychedelic experience. So at the ethical level I think these things are mutually reinforcing and very good for each other. Compassion is what we lack. Buddhism preaches compassion. Psychedelics give people the power to overcome habitual behaviors.
Compassion is a function of awareness. You cannot attain greater aware- ness without necessarily attaining greater compassion, whether you’re attaining this awareness through Buddhist practice or through psychedelic experience.
BADINER: So compassion and awareness are the twin pillars of both Buddhism and the psychedelic society.
MCKENNA: Compassion and awareness. To my mind the real contrast between Buddhism and psychedelic shamanism is between a theory out of which experi- ences can be teased and an experience out of which theory can be teased.
BADINER: Well, this is a fundamental tenet of Buddhism, to abandon belief systems for direct experience.
MCKENNA: Yes, but like an onion, Buddhism has many layers. For instance, folk Buddhism is obsessed with reincarnation. Philosophical Buddhism knows there is no abiding self. How can these two things be reconciled? Logically they can’t, but religions aren’t logical. Religions are structures in the mass psyche that fulfill needs not dictated by reason alone. Any complex, philosophical system makes room for self-contradiction.
BADINER: One of the significant contributions Buddhism offers this culture is that it creates a context for the experience of death. You have said the aware- ness of death is one of the most important insights that the psychedelic experience offers. Are they similar perspectives?
MCKENNA: Well, they’re similar in that I think the goal is the same. The goal, the view of both positions is that life is a preparation for death and that this prepa- ration is a specific preparation. In other words, certain facts must be known, certain techniques must be mastered, and then the passage out of physicality and on to whatever lies beyond is more smoothly met. So in that sense they are very similar, and they seem to be talking about the same territory.
BADINER: You’ve said that the twin horrors or twin problems of Western society are ego and materialism, combining in a kind of naive monotheism. Why is Buddhism any less a remedy than psychedelics?
MCKENNA: Well, it’s less a remedy only in the sense that it’s an argument, not an experience.
BADINER: But it’s a series of practices that enable experience.
MCKENNA: Yeah, but you have to do it. The thing about psychedelics is the inev- itability of it once you simply commit to swallowing the pill. But Buddhism and psychedelics are together probably the best hope we have for an antidote to egotism and materialism, which are fatally destroying the planet. I mean, it’s not an abstract thing. The most important thing Buddhism can do for us is to show us inner wealth and to de-emphasize object fetishism, which is a very primitive religious impulse. It’s an aboriginal religious impulse to fetishize objects and Buddhism shows a way out of that.
BADINER: The way you describe ecstasy has kind of a Buddhist flavor . . . the edge or the depth of human feeling that includes suffering. This resonates with the Buddhist notion that nirvana encompasses samsara.
MCKENNA: True ecstasy is a union of opposites. It’s the felt experience of paradox, so it is exalting and illuminating at the same time that it’s terrifying and threat- ening. It dissolves all boundaries.
BADINER: Are you anticipating the emergence of a Buddhist psychedelic culture?
MCKENNA: No, it’s a Buddhist, psychedelic, green, feminist culture! I’ve always felt that Buddhism, ecological thinking, psychedelic thinking, and feminism are the four parts of a solution. These things are somewhat fragmented from each other, but they are the obvious pieces of the puzzle. An honoring of the feminine, an honoring of the planet, a stress on dematerialism and compassion, and the tools to revivify and make coherent those three.
BADINER: The tools being psychedelic substances?
MCKENNA: Yes. It would be very interesting to find Buddhists who were open- minded enough to go back and start from scratch with psychedelics and not do the ordinary “We’ve got a better way” rap, but to say, “Maybe we do, maybe we don’t. Let’s go through these things with all our practice and all our under- standing and all our technique and put it with botany, chemistry, and all this ethnography.” And then what could you come up with? If, as Baker Roshi says, people advance quickly with psychedelics, then advance them quickly with psychedelics. And then when they reach a point where practice and method are primary, practice and method should move to the fore. And maybe there are several times when these things would switch position.
BADINER: You don’t see any contradiction in being a Buddhist and exploring psychedelics?
MCKENNA: No, I would almost say, how can you be a serious Buddhist if you’re not exploring psychedelics? Then you’re sort of an armchair Buddhist, a Buddhist from theory, a Buddhist from practice, but it’s sort of training wheels practice. I mean, the real thing is, take the old boat out and give it a spin.
BADINER: Maybe you should try taking out the old zafu for a spin!
MCKENNA: Or, try both!
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