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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 19, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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Largo, I'm just trying to grasp not only what you are saying but why. I don't disagree with your perspective because it is just that, a perspective.
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I think that this thread has done pretty well to avoid personal accusations or guff or any of the interpersonal static that can come up in the process of investigating this very slippery material. I would encourage you to entertain the idea that the generic things that Mike or PPSP or others who have spend years with this work are not offering mere "perspectives," any more than a person saying one plus two equals three is offering a "perspective."
There ARE objective, generic truths in this work, as there are in any practice. In the experiential adventures, said truths are often less about the content or the answers that you might come across and experience, and rather have to do with the actual practice itself.
Asserting that everyone's mind wanders, that breathing is part of the practice, that posture counts for something, that detachment is essential, that fusing with content (thoughts, feelings, memories, etc.) is common for us all, that no-mind is hard to define and harder to maintain, etc, - this is not "bullying," but merely passing on info that is common to all paths.
Another objective fact is that many people enter into the practice looking for an argument. I did. Till Sensai Tehshin told me I was absolutely right - and now that was over, who was I, really?
Point is, the more we make it about the people, the less we are focused on the work itself. The best questions, the ones that can most benefit people are in my experience not about what this or that means, but rather they pertain to the craft or technical aspects of meditation itself. How to do it, in other words.
So if you are seeking clarification on something, why not toss it out there and see what people say. I have no exclusive on the "right" answer and you might be able to hear someone else better than you can hear me or Mike or whoever. And there's no telling if I actually know anything useful per your questions. But I trust in the spirit of openness and good will that if you clearly state an honest question, fruitful discussion will quickly follow.
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 11:11pm PT
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O.K. fair enough. Promise not to laugh? ;)
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 11:34pm PT
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Wayno:
What can you lose?
PSP might be better than me here. I don’t much want to talk about me, you, or others (the intrusion of the “I.”)
“Everythingness” tends to signal an attempt towards inclusiveness, as if higher states of consciousness includes more breadth. From my view, it’s not an inclusiveness of vision that is experienced but rather increasing intensity of awareness of what IT is. You can turn your head around on your shoulders and see more, sure. But looking closely at anything, by my observations, brings unending worlds upon worlds (up, down, sideways, and multi-dimensionally). When that is seen / understood / perceived, then the “thing’ness” in “everything” starts to disappear. Hence, no-thing or emptiness in the object of attention, and in the attendee. At that moment, the you or “I” is no more of interest or a basis for view in any narrative that the mind can create. Stories and thing’ness fall away. I can’t explain it very well.
On the other hand, if the “everything” you refer to is that which cannot be labeled / defined / determined because of its irresolvability, then I think you may be saying “one” rather than “every” thing. That is, what THAT points to does not seem to be an everything. It seems to be a no-thing: not an object; no some thing that can be defined.
Yours here can be a useful conversation for all of us because it makes us consider whether we should be giving much thought to ourselves in these situations of spiritual development. If we do, then the conversation ends up being about us, ultimately. Wrestling with that, at some point, we may experience a brief moment of a lock-up of our mind. Everything stops for a moment. And there IT is.
The “I” of you, me, Largo, and others seems to be a waste time and effort. We’re spinning yarns or building sandcastles. Those efforts really seem to go nowhere, into a black hole; they take us away from simply noticing.
“Can’t I notice that X is a jerk?”
Of course you can. But that is really not of much importance; it’s a veil in front of reality. That’s: YOUR . . . COMPLAINT . . . about . . . X. When you focus on those things, then I’d say you’re in the weeds. The issue isn’t much of anything. What IS seems to be bereft of all that baggage.
If you don’t mind a thought from me, I’d suggest you talk about your experience here. Talk about what you’re seeing. Say what you know. What you know is what you experience. (That is pure, isn’t it?) What do you see? What do you know? What is your experience (when, for example, it comes to meditation?).
If you were a practitioner of Zen, you might have hard complaints about how its teachers can ride roughshod over students—and you’d be absolutely right. It would also be irrelevant (and actually a part of your training). I think it was Phillip Kapleau in The Three Pillars of Zen who recounts how much it bothered him to bow before his teacher at the beginning of every meditation session—and how much his teacher was aware of it and would inwardly smile. It was exactly what Kapleau needed. In certain forms of Tibetan Buddhism, practitioners look for and use what is most uncomfortable in order to learn about themselves, about reality, compassion, and emptiness. Those situations that drive us the most crazy are said to be the best places to practice. Spiritual paths do not take one to warm, fuzzy, optimistic, beautiful places in heaven. Those are pipe (and marketers’) dreams. (In Tibet, some of the best practicing places are the charnel grounds.)
Certain Tibetans’ practices entail stripping the content away from uncomfortable experiences to access the energy (tantra) so that practitioners can surf that energy as Gods, to realize their godhood (of which they already are). (See any of Pema Chodron’s little books; they are wonderful on these topics that touch our fears, anger, jealousy, sadness, etc.)
Be well.
EDIT: I was just thinking this morning about all the thoughts here on ST about Potter and Hunt recently, and how their deaths have given rise to great feelings about what it means to live in the moment. Those interpretations are interesting and seemingly provide meaning, but it might be instead the energy that arises in our experiences that might be the real gold in the ore. It's the energy that makes us more aware of being rather than the stories.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
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If you don’t mind a thought from me, I’d suggest you talk about your experience here. Talk about what you’re seeing. Say what you know. What you know is what you experience. (That is pure, isn’t it?) What do you see? What do you know? What is your experience (when, for example, it comes to meditation?).
I don't mind but no thanks, I'm too shy about that. I'll shut up now. It is very likely that I would try to make up a bunch of cool sounding stuff anyway. ;D
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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Ok. :-)
(No matter what, . . . we're just talking here, ya know?)
Don't be a stranger.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 20, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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Wayno, how do you know to be shy? What IS shy? How do you experience it? How does it feel in your body? Where IS it? What happens if you detach from "shy" and watch it? Who or what is watching? When watching shy, how is it that shy has more power over you then the sounds in the room?
Because shy is where you place your attention.
Shift your attention and you are no longer at the total mercy of shy.
Thing is, we get attached to our internal rulers (strongest feelings, memories, ideas, etc). For some it is women, climbing, anger, resentment - or "shy." We all have something. As Mike said, if you see clearly, there is no baggage. That's something extra we do ourselves. Shy don't live out there somewhere. It's an inside job.
And of course all of this is MUCH easier said than done...
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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I'm actually not unfamiliar with some of the practices mentioned here. I first took up the practice as a teen after reading Sri Chinmoy. I had some astounding experiences. At one point I met Chinmoy and even received prasad from him. Then I studied native American practices and met some folks from the Apache and Mayan people that taught me some things. When I climbed a lot, I had some strange mystical experiences that led me to study some of the classic mystical literature available at the time. I studied a lot of different disciplines and tried a few but I never joined any groups or organizations that were devoted to one outlook. I even meditated with some Buddhists from Tibet that could not even speak English. we could not talk about their practice but they did share some amazing things. This is when I got on the path I am following today.
There is no name or organization to call it. It is just a group of like minded individuals from different paths that have discovered each other in this, our adventure. We come from all over the world and find ourselves connected in some kind of synchronistic way that I find difficult to express. Sound Mystical? Twenty years ago I would have called it that but I don't see mysticism in the same light anymore. I don't know what to call it and I don't see a need to call it anything but a synthesis. You can call it what you would like.
So I am familiar with with a lot of the classic disciplines and I can easily quiet the mind, in meditation and in normal conscious daily living and that is no longer a goal but a rather just another "thing" to put in my bag of tricks. Tricks? YES, tricks. because I claim no other source than my vivid imagination. But what starts with imagination can, with the proper feedback, develop into real growth of the soul. Not mind expansion, but soul growth. They do go hand in hand but they are not the same thing.
My choice of terminology is strictly subjective, so be wary of projecting a meaning that wasn't intended. I feel that terminology can be like large stones in a farmers field that if you run over them too many times you have to fix your tractor.
So I guess what I am talking about isn't really meditation but meditation is a part of it. Perhaps the "inner life" would be a better descriptor. What think you?
Edit- I missed your above post as I was writing this one, John. The shy thing was a small joke as you can now see. I just imagine you see me as some kind of noob that has no experience to match yours and that you feel a need to educate me or set me straight. I read what you say above and go, 'Duh". I see what you are saying and I agree with most of it and I understand that perhaps my choice of wording has given you an impression that I am not entirely comfortable with. I'll get over it. I'm not mad or frustrated and I will be nice and I will learn and I will grow, as always, forever. I am not stuck in one place wondering where I went wrong and If I wanted advice I would have asked for it. It is not the content, it is the tone. Educators.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 20, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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Wayno - I think the confusion came from you saying: " I am curious and I do have questions." Quite naturally people were willing to say what they thought might help per those questions. No one is trying to educate you. As they say in the work: Take what you want and leave the rest. That's what I do.
JL
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 20, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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I asked Maggie dog
why do you sit there silent?
all she said was Mu.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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^^^^^^^
+1. Great.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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John, I was just trying to understand what you were saying. I quoted you and was asking about what you said as I didn't think I quite understood you. Although I am curious and do have questions in general, that statement was directed at trying to clarify what you had said, before going off half-cocked as we all sometimes do. I apologize for this awkward exchange as I truly respect what I think you have to say. I just don't have the same way as you and I was looking for common ground. I can't automatically come over to your level of thought by mere intention. You have a base of knowledge that is extensive and I'm sure hard-won and certainly valid and I hope that WE can find that common ground and not get hung up on the words or the emotions. In my experience, good conversation requires some ground work and a desire for mutual benefit.
Now back to this Thingless-thing you keep talking about.;) How tangible do you see it, and does that matter to you? Is it like the question that seeks no answer, just it's own existence. I sense a paradox. I love a good paradox.
Warning: I threw a little humor in there in an attempt to balance the seriousness of my question.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 20, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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she said Mu...not glue.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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Something smells Wroughten in Denmark.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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Let us see if we can find a common metaphor.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
How about that one?
I had a dream that I woke up. It was a dream.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 20, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
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Now back to this Thingless-thing you keep talking about.;) How tangible do you see it, and does that matter to you? Is it like the question that seeks no answer, just it's own existence. I sense a paradox. I love a good paradox.
What do you mean by "tangible." Do you mean material, stuff you can get hold of with your hands? Your experience of pleasure from eating ice cream or a burrito or prawns or whatever is not tangible in the normal sense of the word (some physical thing you can grab and measure and evaluate), but it nevertheless is very real in your experience.
To get a feel for no-thing, consider this thought experiment:
Normal perception works on the principal of figure and ground, to use the old Gestalt language. This operates according to how we toggle our focus, much as we do with the lens of a camera. We keep zooming in and zooming out on whatever we are focused on, whatever we put out "attention" on, meaning attention follows focus. For example, we can't keep our attention on the cat when we are focused on the TV.
In short, whatever we focus on is the "figure," or the "thing" we are focused upon. The rest of reality is the "ground," or background, which is all the peripheral stuff (people, places, things and phenomenon) in our field of awareness.
To experience no-thing, flip the background (think "space") so it is now the figure, and all the things are ground. That is, keep your focus on infinity, NOT concentrating on any specific thing.
Note how fast your attention will automatically glom onto a thing (thought, feeling, etc) and how your focus will zoom in. Holding an open focus is a practice. Nobody in the history of the world can hold an open focus for long without practice, since we evolved to narrow focus for survival.
JL
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 20, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
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O. K. I understand your example of the thought experiment and yes, I have successfully practiced such techniques, so yes the word "tangible" in that regard is probably a poor choice of words. Let me try to think of a better way to ask that. I guess we should make a distinction between this state of mind and the significance one attaches to it when they are not in that state. I'm not even sure that what you are talking about is something you would call a state of mind. Is it? I'm one of those guys that think that not all reality is material and can be experienced with the senses. But in my experience the mind can and does experience a reality not connected to sensory input but some kind of information nonetheless that the mind can experience and process in a useful and perhaps meaningful manner. Is this the Separate Reality of Don Juan? (I know, that's fiction) Or is the separation an illusion? Is it just a matter of what we choose to pay attention to not?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 20, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
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It is about attachment. Once you become attached to something it starts to take over your perception. Learning to let go of things you experience is what the practice is about.
Carlos Castaneda borrowed the concept of controlled folly.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 20, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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I think that this thread has done pretty well to avoid personal accusations or guff or any of the interpersonal static that can come up in the process of investigating this very slippery material(JL)
This is true, and I think the reason is that experienced meditators here provide information about the processes, techniques and various meditative paths along with personal experiences. They do not attempt to interpret their experiences as metaphysical theory. That is more appropriate to the other two threads.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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May 20, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
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Meditation is simply the opposite of Prayer.
you send signals up, you wait for the reply,
to hear the reply, you have to turn off the squirrel cage called self.
some folks hold their palms up like antennas,
don't put yourself in physical pain while meditating, that is just corny,
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