Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
For art to appear, the player must disappear".
That's impersonalism.
Instead ....
The player and art exist simultaneously become one with variegatedness and diversity but keep their individuality .........
|
|
pa
climber
|
|
"The player and art exist simultaneously..."
Yes, thank you for making it more clear. I was interpreting "the player" as the ego, not as the soul.
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
Hmmmm . . .
just nattering here . . .
this is just a thought, and I will think about this concept more this next week in the studio:
When I am making a piece of art, I am not separate from the art. In my mind is an expression I wish to bring into being. My hands know most of the moves, and if I see the image in my mind, and can feel it in my muscles, my hands will make it.
I am not separate from the art. It is a part of me that needs to be manifested. When I am done with it, it is as though something within me has been released into these other dimensions. I do not feel I get lost in my art, nor that I become my art. While I am creating, there is a form of transcendence which I am usually far too absorbed to consider. But I am not separate from creating or the creation.
My favorite composer is Scriabin. His silences are as lyrical and harmonious as his musical notes. My favorites are his 24 Preludes, Opus 11 which are beautifully mathematical and emotional to my senses. These Preludes, performed by Ruth Loredo (followed by Vladimir Horowitz) are the best music I have found for my own aesthetic sensibilities. His sonata #7, Opus 64 (White Mass) is stunning in part for its use of "space" —to my ears, anyway. He did not present himself separate from his composing. Granted, they institutionalized him, but there is no accounting for the bulge in the bell curve. (Then again, maybe if Gödel had been institutionalized again, he might have stayed healthier and lived longer.) And Scriabin uses silence to stress the creativity of his use of sound. There is space around the creation, to emphasize the creation to the listener. I do not think Scriabin was separate from the notes or the silence of his creations while he was composing.
So as with most art, my porcelain art pieces create space, and it is that space, as much as the clay form, that brings the piece to life. It contains aspects of me and aspects of the clay, of the fire, and of the water. When it is finished, it will probably have a tone when struck. Like a bell, it speaks. :) Then I am done with it, and let it go. Now it is separate from me.
How much is me creating, and how much is the clay becoming what it wants to be, based on what I am sharing with its substance? How does one parse this flowing of creativity into me and 'it'? I cannot remove myself from the creation until it is completed. Then it may be that it will lose its vitality for me and will I lose interest. That part of me that needed to be expressed is finished. I suppose sculptors, painters, writers, composers, and children building tall towers of blocks, feel the same sense of being finished with their creation.
But while I am engaged, there is certainly very little sense of 'me" and 'it' as separate entities. I am in the art. And the art is emerging from within me. All of which probably makes very little sense, even to me, but at least it is something to think about. Right now, I think I will go listen to Preludes and think about incompleteness. :)
Thank you.
feralfae
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 07:52am PT
|
We could use more of that kind of nattering, feralfae.
It is strange to consider. I often feel that lack of separation you mention. What I wonder is; where does the feeling of separateness come from? Simply calling it ego or "I" is a non-answer. The world enters through our senses and flows inside us. Our skin is an easily traversed border and there is probably no clear boundary inside us, either, between ourselves and the world.
Many thanks for the views on music.
edit:
Previously on ST:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=955235&msg=955261#msg955261
|
|
Chalkpaw
climber
Flag, AZCO
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 09:05am PT
|
Thanks to all who have freely provided information and experiences about Meditation. Of all the active outdoor freaks I know, the ST group seems to be the most willing to at least have a discussion or two in this digital medium.
I find that an active life, seeking, exploring, having experiences is such a great way to add into the formal sit down, temple led, group, processes. It is a powerful combination that is worthy.
Climbing has such a long history and I am enjoying finding the largely Asian influence to be an inspiration. Its fun to think of these men running through landscapes, climbing, sharing stories, and then going for the long quiet reflective moments. True badasses willing to dive deep with cultural support. The Western mind has some history of the same, but not as much. Today, I think we are leading into a new understanding, using technology to aid in the process. Flow is very helpful for me, the driving force which allows the mind to gain meditative, present awareness which can be used with the struggle.
A group that presents flow in a way that aided me is the flowgenomeproject.co
It would be interesting to have a ST basecamp weekend in a place like a National park to meet face to face, share stories, and practice flow. October in Zion is one possibility.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 10:21am PT
|
Where does the feeling of separateness come from?
--
Identifying with the "I." This happens seamlessly once memory and discursive mind narrow focus on some thing. If you shift your attention from the stuff and the "I" between which you feel said separation, and instead sense into the space between them, and the space between the cells in your brain, and between your thoughts and feelings, the separation vanishes. Most of us have to have a kind of flow-task to have the separation vanish. To have it vanish when you are NOT tasking is a practice, IME. And the practice is never finished.
JL
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 10:35am PT
|
A non-answer. Do infants have an "I"? I have heard the opinion that infants do not realize that they are separate from their mother, for example. It seems likely that they do not feel separateness in the way that adults do. Why should people come to feel this separation as they grow up? What makes you identify with an "I"?
Very early experiences have had effects on our psychology and without knowing what those experiences and effects were, our explanations of adult psychology are lacking.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
|
"Very early experiences have had effects on our psychology and without knowing what those experiences and effects were, our explanations of adult psychology are lacking. "
ZM BonSoeng also a psycho therapist talks alot about this in his teaching. He basicly says that from a very early age kids start figuring out what tools to use to get what they want. And they use them over and over on their parents and friends as long as they keep working. I can think of a few crying, whining, having temper tantrums (anger) etc, etc...
Since we can't talk at a young age how else are you going to communicate you are hungry or you want your diaper changed.
When we become adults we still try to use these tools often to our detriment. But they are the only tools we have experience with.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
|
MH2:
What you are referring to per the infant "I" and fusion to the mother is called "Normal symbiotic phase" and it's a development stage as described by Margaret Mahler and taught in all grad psychology classes per developmental psychology.
So far as addressing your "non-answer" comment - not on this thread. Arguments are not in keeping with the timbre of this discussion. Instead, perhaps experiment with keeping your focus open and not attached to the content of your awareness and see for yourself where the "I" goes. Or look into the recovery literature per being "bound by self." All of your questions are valid and have been dealt with extensively by generations of mind explorers.
JL
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
|
There was no argument. I was echoing and supporting feralfae.
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
|
Thank you for your kind comments.
I am going to begin by falling back on my standard "aw,shucks' stance: I am just a simple person, a potter, who milked cows as a youngster and at one time knew how to handle a team during haying season. That being said . . .
more nattering . . .
The "I" we seem to sense within ourselves is, I think, (And here it is difficult to choose a perfect relational phrase) a part of our ego/ a defensive shield behind which our innocent and tender sense of 'oneness' can hide/a structure based on how we perceive ourselves in relation to others; a structure that we begin to build as infants to establish our connectedness with others, while at the same time, perhaps, pulling down bits of our spirit self to use those bits to create the ego structure—which may be a way refusing to be intimidated by "all of it" as we set about declaring our boisterous, awe-struck, wonder-filled, SELF to existence.
For instance, when I come out of flow, I seem to quickly remember things about which I need to hold vigilance, or things which need to be done, people with whom I hope to nurture friendship and/or love. Because of these and other cords tugging at me (at the I), my sense of self shifts from one of being open and trusting to one of being slightly guarded, beset with obligations—usually self-imposed. My—again self-imposed—boundaries, such as the walls of my house, edge of the forest, proper manners, how I identify myself, how I label myself, and how I wish others to see me, are all pieces of that 'I' structure.
In the mountains, it is easier to lose that 'I' and therefore easier to lose sight of boundaries and —at the same time—feel my heart opening in peace and joy. I go farther out and, at the same time, farther in, spiritually speaking.
Maybe everyone's ego/I/sense of separateness arises from their own unique circumstances. It is what gives us the richness of diversity, after all. But I think we all know, down in the depths of our hearts, that we are One with That which communes with us at times of our most open awareness.
Thank you
feralfae
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2015 - 01:30am PT
|
^^^^^^^^
How nice.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2015 - 06:03am PT
|
For all those within driving range of Josh, Gordon's hosting the Tom Gilje fundraiser tonight and since service is part of any practice, I hope to see people there. Now - time for the Zendo...
JL
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2015 - 11:17am PT
|
Last Installment I think. Been busy with school.
-----
Wu-wei (pronounced, “ou-way”) is a Chinese notion that is most concerned with virtue. “Wu” is translated as non-being; so wu-wei is the being of non-being, or the action of non-action. The Tao (the way) is meant to provide a path to virtue and morality. How one does that (using wu-wei, anyway) was a topic of controversy between 4 different Chinese masters who wrote about it.
Confucius was first, and he argued that wu-wei would come from much practice, training, and time by studying proper responses to social situations (manners, civilities, dress, music types, and such not). Confucius advised students to polish and carve their behaviors to be at ease (one) within the social world. Laozi was next, but he took the opposite view. Virtue could best be found not through the artifice of practice and polishing of one’s being and character, but by letting go. Perfection is already there in everything; artifice (social learning) simply puts up veils in front of one’s true being. Like Michelangelo, beauty, truth, and ethics are ready to be discovered in any block of stone; it simply needs uncovering. The third and fourth masters (Mencius and Zhuangzi) who wrote about wu-wei continued the vacillation between trying and not trying (although not so starkly). The last guidance that comes out of these conversations is to try and not try--but not too hard.
The Chinese (and later the Japanese) built their religious systems around virtues of naturalness and spontaneity. A “felt success” in life for them was linked to the charisma that one radiates when one is completely at ease, or the effectiveness of being in complete absorption.
Wu-wei exposes a number of natural paradoxes. One conceptual problem lies the notions of virtue and altruism. One cannot be truly altruistic or virtuous if one holds an intention to be altruistic or virtuous. The very effort of trying means that one is not fully or purely altruistic or virtuous. Moreover, one becomes oriented to achieving virtue or altruism. Virtue is supposed to be its own reward; virtue is simply supposed to feel right.
An actor in wu-wei lives in a state of unselfconsciousness. At the center of wu-wei, is “de” (viz., the Tao de Ching). “De” is typically translated as power, charisma or charismatic power—a radiance that others detect, that signals that one is in wu-wei. De has a relaxing effect on others. The power of de is like the North Star: one simply remains in one’s place, invisible, dwelling in dark valleys and pulling everyone else into order. When a person has de, people like him or her, they trust them, and they are relaxed around them.
Wu-wei is about being properly situated in the cosmos, especially an ability to move through the human world with ease. The wu-wei actor naturally finds his or her place within social interactions and shared values. People who act from or out of virtue provide the stable dispositions to perform socially desirable actions for a community, sincerely motivated by the shared values of that community. Wu-wei creates a world without artifice, hypocrisy, or excess desire.
The wu-wei person moves through the open spaces of social life, rather than from known certainty to known certainty. The wu-wei actor side-steps, moves around, or (like the resiliency of bamboo) bends or flows through difficulties that damage the spirit or wears out the body. Allowing things to be, puts one into harmony with the forces around one. Emptying oneself of the self creates a receptive space--an openness--to what situations demand.
Flow, on the other hand, is a little different. Flow is a precise calibration of skill and challenge, which often leads to an ever-increasing spiraling complexity (due to ever-increasing learning or skills). Flow tends to be solitary and aimed at self-improvement, from an almost pure individualistic perspective. (Csikszentmihalyis (the first to write about flow academically) advised it was probably better to lessen the connection between flow and performance. )
Wu-wei works only if one is sincere. A person can attain power only if he or she doesn’t want it.
Wu-wei differs from flow by focusing on the social dimension of spontaneity. Wu-wei occurs only in the service of something bigger, something beyond one’s own narcissistic, rational self-interest. (Only perhaps in a pure stoic sense can “rational self-interest” possibly look like virtue—where one does something because it is simply the most reasonable thing to do.)
In practice, de appears to show itself as a combination of body language, micro-emotional expressions, tone of voice, and general appearance by people who are relaxed, honest, sincere, self-confident, and without guile. In this regard, it recalls some of the things I wrote about earlier about hot vs. cold cognition in neuroscience.
Emotions alone are imperfect signals of people’s intentions or inclinations. Instead, bodies tend to expose the truth of being (see Paul Ekman’s or Joe Navarro’s writings, or watch Woody Allen’s eyebrows). Deception, free riding, and guile are mainly acts of a cold and calculating cognition. Whatever behaviors or signals that people in society can judge authenticity and honest cooperation, those signals need to be difficult to mimic by free riders.
For example, police ask for alibis in reverse order, and as stated earlier, alcohol, dancing, play, singing, etc. are all low-tech, social approaches to produce “downregulations” to discover authenticity. What we want in society are people with no gaps between their actions and motivations. We don’t want extra cold cognition sneaking around with nefarious plans off-stage, especially in our modern Western world of excessive individualism, alienation, and materialism.
David Brooks in the NYTs argued that the celebration of bluntness and straight talking blind us to a moral function of civility and manners (also noted recently here in ST). Indeed, our habits and practices end up shaping the people we are on the inside. Maybe society could use more role-centered, tradition-bound, communitarianism found in Confucianism. It might make cold-cognition (an approved set of behaviors) more reliable socially through practice by making them natural and spontaneous, so that every action would be free and easy, yet perfectly appropriate. Then the conscious mind would let go so that the body would take over. The purpose of cold cognition would simply be to maintain a background situational awareness.
According to Confucius and Mencius, rituals are good (even essential) behavioral training practices. They are means of socialization and institutionalization. For example, social scripting and guided reflections can turn instinctual reflexes into mature reactions, mainly thru stories, art, peer modeling, literature, and through the accumulation of wisdom in old texts. The purpose of that would be to create social cohesion. The arts may be crucial for engendering socially responsible behaviors.
Politically it seems that relationships need to be wu-wei to work properly.
Meditation is one way to downregulate the cold cognition centers of the brain. (A shot of vodka can also be as effective.) Focusing on a skill-relevant environment can facilitate “getting lost” in free play. Having an external focus means tuning-in to other personalities than one’s own mind, into listening closely to the conversations of others rather than one’s own thoughts, and to the body language around happening around oneself. One can be moved by one’s environment rather than trying to control it.
“What should I do?” is most often the same thing as, “how should I control the situation?” Control implies personal will or volition.
Viewed through the lens of meditative states, volition in its noumenal or subjective aspect looks very much to be an urge. According to many contemplatives, sentient beings react rather than act. Living is conditioned by instinct, habit, fashion, etc. Life looks primarily like a series of reflexes. Any apparent entity appears simply lived--a role played by an actor.
If one sees that, as an apparent entity, he or she is “being lived,” then one realizes no harbored intentions. Without intentions, there would be no need to form concepts: a being “is” and simply acts in non-objective relation with all other so-called things. If urges arise independent of deliberate conceptualization, then one can be completely spontaneous. Function-ing is what sentient beings are.
When personal will disappears, spirit rushes in. Willfulness is replaced by a sense of wu-wei. A person feels he or she knows where things are moving to, and he or she feels (rather than thinks) what seems the right thing to do. It is cooperation with the inevitable. One no longer asks about which way is the right way. One gets beyond right and wrong. One doesn’t commit to either. One quits arguing with life and awakens at the level of the gut, simply playing a part in many roles, with full expression.
There is nothing that anyone can do to let go. Letting THAT in, is finally letting go. All holding is futile. Grasping any view makes one blind to everything possible or potential. One perceives from wholeness, without being divided inside.
When in harmony with reality, one experiences bliss. If not, pain.
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
|
Thank you MikeL.
I will no doubt read the above several times.
I already see one point worth discussing further.
thank you
feralfae
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2015 - 05:29pm PT
|
Feralfae:
I'm sure there is much wrong with the writing. It seems fragmented to me. I'm no expert. I liked working on the installments, though. It kinda wrote itself a little bit after I got away from my chicken scratching in a notebook. I like writing because wu-wei shows up for me there (and in my classrooms) sometimes.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
|
Any suggestions or advice if I want to do 2 years of silent meditation on retreat?
"Yeah, well just don't do it by yourself. You really need guidance if you're going to go into a retreat of any significant length. So find a meditation center where they're doing a practice that you really want to do and find a teacher you really admire and who you trust and then follow their instructions. -Sam Harris"
Ask Me Anything #1 podcast...
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/ask-me-anything-1
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Fruity - I think you might be hard pressed to find many on this thread who believe that the experiential adventures are (like most anything else) most effectively leanred in the context of a group, with qualified instructors. Many here bvelieve meditation is basically a kind of mental exercise you do by yourself. Sam knows otherwise because he spent some time early on in a group meditation environment, while the ones railing against formal instruction insist that dropping acid and tripping out in a dep. tank - or just mulling it all over on their own - is just as good, being that all things are equal in the subjective realm - unproven, imgained, woo, feelings, religious, chanting injuns, guru backwash, etc. All the wonky stuff folks project on practice.
That consciousness work is ruled by its own set of laws is made clear to all who have been told to sit down and follow their breath only to find their attention wanders to whatever qualia has the strongest attraction. We are all clueless till we "shut up, get still and stop evaluating (calculating)."
JL
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 12, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
|
I’m not young, and I think I qualify as old now. ((That’s weird.))
Has anyone noticed how experience has become more dimensional, more poignant, more intricate than it seemed to be? Perhaps this is a place where I’m at. Great intention and autonomous purpose have started to leave me—and without them both, I find that everything is more poetic.
Age is somethin’ else.
|
|
ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
|
|
|
May 13, 2015 - 09:30am PT
|
I haven't read this whole thread so I hope I'm not bringing up something that has already been talked about. I tried vainly to meditate for many years and just couldn't seem to make it work. Then, my wife recently gave me the book 10% Happier by Dan Harris. His look at it from an almost cynical point of view and defining the setbacks he went through helped me come to an epiphany of sorts. I realized that all of the times that I thought I was failing were just the normal hurdles at the beginning of trying to meditate. I was making progress, I just didn't know that I was and so I gave up. Now I am trying again and the baby steps are just starting to work.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!