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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:40am PT
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Amen, Ron.
But that's Moronorastifarianismus to you fella.
Rajmit, aren't you aware that radical extremism is the rage these days? Get with the program!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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Ragmeat, are you speaking from experience??
Mimi, Steve's not a moron, merely spiritually challenged.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Even though the guy (steve) that started this thread seems spiritualy chalenged as well, I think your talken to me.
I'm not sure though. My short term memories not to good.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:53am PT
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I knew what caused that just a minute ago....
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:57am PT
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Wait, I'll remember.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Shouldn't this be on the Steve's House Of Smoke thread?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:07am PT
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Hey Ron, should I split this thread? And if so, what should we call it? I think the conversation should continue, don't you?
How about Impactomoronorastifarianism?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:20am PT
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no_one,
I think the issue for me is this notion that you keep painting that only extreme or exceptional characters are the ones who do the first clean ascents and so that somehow lessens the obligation we have to strive for the same. From my perspective, if someone does it clean, then that's what I'd be shooting for. If it went clean more than once than I would think it wouldn't even really be a question, at least for me.
On the hammer issue I'd say leave the hammer and you're totally committed to a clean ascent and you damn well better be solidly advanced in your technical skills, be highly creative in addition, and also be prepared to deal with anything that comes up - including bailing clean as well. On a wall I don't think anyone would be arguing that isn't an exceptional commitment and one would hope folks going after it would have the requisite skills and experience. I'm guessing John and Steve are largely arguing relative to people capable of operating at this level and then probably on routes that either have gone, or are likely candidates for going, free.
Take a hammer, pins, and bolt kit but leave them in the bottom of your haul bag when leading with the intent to do a route clean and you're clearly less [objectively] committed, but as Ammon says, you are prepared to deal with any eventuality. If a route has only gone clean once or twice or you don't happen to climb aid consistently and comfortably at a real high level then I don't believe anyone is going to think less of you because you came prepared and are packing. In fact, I'd say kudos for you for starting to make that leap into higher level of commitment to do things.
I hear Ammon saying that unless you have the requisite skills, and likely even if you do, you should be at least packing, if not toting. I think that then gets into the whole question of whether there are clean ethical issues at the busy intersection of one's route choice, its clean "status", your goals, and your real capabilities. If the route's gone clean (or multiple times as you suggest) maybe there's a real legitimate issue to gripe about when someone launches with a hammer in hand.
But I don't think for a minute that it's a simple or cut-and-dried issue either, leaving the ground without a hammer is a committing call with dead serious implications. Made by the right person[s] it's not all that different than setting yourself a 24 hour deadline for a big wall and taking so little gear you don't need to haul. Seems to me you could get hung out to dry (or drip) pretty damn easy either way and you better know what the hell you're doing.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:25am PT
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dude but let me say. f*#ke everyhintg! people who know, kjnow. so those who claim they folllow 300 posts and understand, liars, all of them! seirously. whoever could read this whoel thread and follow each tangent is my gotdamn hero. of course. you uygs are being dumb. just shutup already and stop talking for the sake of beig talking
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:25am PT
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dude but let me say. f*#ke everyhintg! people who know, kjnow. so those who claim they folllow 300 posts and understand, liars, all of them! seirously. whoever could read this whoel thread and follow each tangent is my gotdamn hero. of course. you uygs are being dumb. just shutup already and stop talking for the sake of beig talking
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:31am PT
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Barely standing: go take a nap and come back later.
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Michael
Trad climber
Boulder
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Sep 16, 2006 - 02:09am PT
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Steve, I rarely post on this site so when I say you need to take your self rightous head out of your ass and look in the mirror, you should seriously take it to heart. Try focusing your passionate diatribes on something more selfless, important, and humanitarian. Talk about ego...Ammon, I haven't seen you in a couple years; hope all is well. I'm sorry you have to put up with Steve's cathartic ST discharge...
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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This beats anything on rc.com.
one f*#king piton placement...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
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Bob,
you're %110.
Talk about making a mountain out of a divot!
But really this thread is about a lot more than just a single hidden anchor placement.
Its about;
principles
hero worship/ leadership
resource preservation
drinking
smoking
life
love
cathartic discharges
and really poor spelling.
LOL Hey! Its finally out of triple digits. Time to go climbing.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Sep 16, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Bob D
we all know your ethics suck! go rapp bolt, hang dog up another line!
The route was put up clean and should be climbed clean.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 04:53pm PT
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Hardman said, "The route was put up clean and should be climbed clean."
Is that true, the part about CT being put up clean. If so I'll have to withdrawl from the record, that I didn't think the one pin was a big deal. Even one pin on a route that's never been nailed is to many! Ammon wasn't the first to nail it was he? Regardless, he's still a good guy and damn, he's fast!
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Sep 16, 2006 - 06:55pm PT
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softboy wrote: Bob D
we all know your ethics suck! go rapp bolt, hang dog up another line!
The route was put up clean and should be climbed clean.
That really hurts. LOL.
Get a life!
Softboy...fyi...rap bolting and hangdogging have nothing to do with ethics.
Again...get a life wanker.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 16, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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Cosmic Trauma was not "put up clean". That is, the first ascent was not done clean; pitons were used.
First ascent info rom bigwall.com:
Cosmic Trauma (FA) Barry Ward, Alan Humphrey, 4/89
And as reported on supertopo.com, the first clean ascent was in 2003 by John Fowler and partner.
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chossman
climber
lone pine, ca
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Sep 17, 2006 - 02:14am PT
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What ever happened to the 'Saint' Steven we all love and know? I would agree with that Steve's comments are inflamatory. Steve, I remember how riled up you were about Duane Raliegh chipping hook placements on your route Jolly Roger, but you handled it in a very understated way. That was something to get upset about and you barely shed a tear.
One piton placement? Really. You sound like the old man across the street who used to yell at us kids for just being kids. "Kids these days - with their shenanagins, always raising a ruckus." Let the speed climbers have their fun and don't rain on their parade. ...Unless you can do the route as fast as Ammon without the piton.
"all gawds chillun loves beer."
--Che Desa Tay
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Sep 18, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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If you are climbing a first ascent with no hammer, how many hook moves past your last good piece are you willing to risk if there is no guaranty when you will find a good placement? Does it matter? Are you willing to repel off a hook? If you are twenty hook moves out and can’t find another placement, even for a hook, then do you repel off of a hook, or down aid the twenty hook moves? Or, if you can’t see your next good placement do you just not risk exploring on hooks?
Just a curious n00b.
Teth
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