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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:19am PT
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Ammon, I’ve been following your postings of your speed ascent of Cosmic Trauma. It’s time for a little honesty and self-examination, which unfortunately has to be forced on you by others.
The clean move which eluded you on Pitch 7 is a highly technical blind reach with a No. 3 RP out to the side bypassing the roof placement where you chose to nail. A couple of my good old-dad climbing buddies from Tucson got their thrill clean climbing this route because they have what you lack; clarity of intent and commitment to clean climbing principles. Several parties have found it unnecessary to pound on this route, not just one.
You, on the other hand, failed to work this move out and chose the destructive option of pounding a pin. This single placement alone is not the source of real disgruntlement here. The bigger question is why you or anyone else considers it acceptable style to have a hammer and pitons on your rack at all while repeating a clean climb? Under the flimsy guise of “efficient” climbing, you have offered a string of rationalizations for being destructive that no thinking person can really accept.
You simply couldn’t get it done where others did and are unwilling to take responsibility for being destructive which seems to be intrinsic to your stylistic house of cards. Do you really think that anybody out there buys it, that when you pound a piton, it’s the least destructive option? Get real.
In the normal context of sport competition, for this speed climbing nonsense to hold together at all, the only time record that sensibly matters involves climbing the route in the best style to date and on sight. Anything less sullies the accomplishment. You continually rationalize lowering the bar by your choice of equipment and tactics.
Just because the pin rack speaks to you, and that others have chosen to pound, justifies nothing. Why not honor and respect the efforts of others and rise to the occasion? The logic of Nuremberg (Hey! Everybody’s doing it, right?) really doesn’t get you anywhere meaningful.
While you seem to be a capable and accomplished climber, your ego is obviously twisting your common sense. That you and many others, involved in this alpine ghetto game called speed aid climbing, are willing to give yourselves license to climb in poor style is ethically deplorable because it speeds up the degradation of the vertical environment. Especially when the speed climbing game may bring you back to the same route for several ascents in an effort to hold on to that slim time record.
Piss poor style is the same now as it was 20 years ago and somehow the current active climbing community is miserably unable to provide any direction.
As a committed clean climber for the last 30 years, I understand the dynamics of peer pressure. In my early climbing career, before I was set straight by wiser climbers, I too placed pitons where they were not needed and took the heat for it. In that tradition, I’m holding your feet to the fire.
One of my old buddies mentioned earlier while climbing another route not far from Cosmic Trauma heard the sound of nailing and yelled over to the offending party that CT had gone clean. The leader slumped in his aiders and the party soon retreated. Most people know when they are screwing up. You seem utterly lacking in remorse here.
Retreating off a route you can’t do in good style takes more integrity and guts than most wall climbers are willing to summon. It takes no guts whatsoever to bring the climb down to your standard. To do this and to advocate that others do the same, and follow your example, is deplorable. Your activities are highly visible and for that reason your opinion actually has some impact that you need to consider.
Historically, considerable peer pressure was necessary to get people to stop carrying a hammer where it was not necessary on free climbs. We all enjoy the fruits of those rather intense interactions concerning style and ethics. As Mr. Stannard will attest, a lot of yelling and badgering went on in the 70s leading to a clean climbing ethic. This ethic has always been slow to make its way onto the big walls and we all have suffered greatly for it.
I have been howling about this disconnect for a long time and the need to cut impact down is more acute now than it ever was. A lot of excuses and arm waving do nothing to diminish the continual damage. Do you really want this sort of thing to be emblematic of your best efforts?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:25am PT
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Alot of parties bash pins on routes that have gone clean on El Cap. Nobody seems to call them out???
How about all the numourous parties doing Zodiac, Trip, Shield, New Dawn, PO, Dihedral, Ten Days After, etc, etc, etc...that nail? Why not bitch at them too?
Why single out Ammon? Give the guy a break. Not one of his shinning moments...we are not perfect.
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:35am PT
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steve is a visionary.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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lambone,
SG is calling out ammon because he is obviously at or near the top of the wall climbing heap and therefore will gain more impact on the message.
but what about you? havent you done some of those routes and pounded pins? lol just kidding.
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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Purist vs working man
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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Hey Lambone,
My writing and criticism are intended for general consumption. If you see yourself in my words don't be afraid to look back into the mirror. I can't really discuss specifics except as they provided. Believe me there are several other folks in line for a good footwarming, should they approach the fire. I will eagerly respond to any respectful challenge to my ideas. I have listened to jackasses braying about their love of the piton for three decades now and rarely hear anything convincing. So rockbeaters have at me.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:45am PT
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Hello John H,
Oddly enough I swing a hammer for a living.
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Burt
Gym climber
hookers and blow baby...
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:50am PT
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Steve, I was there when the first clean ascent was claimed, 3-4 years ago??? Maybe longer I have been out of the game for some time now, but from my understanding the route has only been climbed clean 2-3 times with a lot of other parties nailing in more than that one spot. Steve you climbed well in your time (and still might now) and Ammon and myself have talked about you before and the routes that you have climbed. He is a straight shooter and has the utmost respect for the people that have paved the way for the future. Maybe you could show the same respect. If you have not climbed with Ammon and have not witnessed his craft then please try not to throw stones. His love for the climbing and for the walls he is on way over shadows the fame or the glory as some people here might think. A missed placement on a route that has gone clean just a couple of times? I know that when the Zodiac, Mescaltio, Shield, Days of No Future, Swoop Gimp (early clean ascents), Desert Shield (early clean ascents), Lunar Ex (early clean ascents), Etc I made sure that the pins where in the bag or on my rack for the routes on that list that I have done. And in spots I couldn’t justify a cam hook (that makes WAY more damage that a softly drivin pin like Mr. McNeely does when he speed climbs)in the soft stone where other parties did, or the 4 sets of ball nuts that they had and forgot to put in on the rack requirements. I sure Ammon is trying his best to come up with some sort of answer for you and I think he owes you nothing. ONE PLACMENT???? That is a mighty cloud that you sit on Steve. Lets hope you don’t fall.
Kurt “Burt”Arend
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Loom
climber
The Whiteboard Jungle
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:52am PT
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The logic of Nuremberg (Hey! Everybody’s doing it, right?)
Wow! Usually it takes at least a couple dozen posts before someone proves Godwin's Law. Congratulations Steve, you did it in your first post. What's next? Geologic Holocaust? Nazi Nailers? That has a nice alliterative ring to it.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:01am PT
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Wow! Another Jihad over one placement of the thousands he has put in. Those of us who have climbed in the valley a good deal, know that Ammon has solid style and ethics.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 01:15am PT
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Loom,
And your point would be?
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Loom
climber
The Whiteboard Jungle
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:33am PT
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Tone control.
I tend to get worked up over retro-bolting, and I've found that it helps the discussion proceed if you control your tone. If you sound like you want to start Nuremberg II, you may alienate part of your audience that might be otherwise sympathetic to your argument.
As to nailing vs. clean climbing I'm ambivalent. There are a number of good arguments that can be made for clean climbing and a number of rationalizations for continuing to nail. I've enjoyed the challenges inherent in both; I don't find myself drawn to any puritanical arguments.
Scott
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 01:35am PT
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Burt,
Falling is just part of the adventure and to be clear, pounding is pounding no matter how angelic your touch. If so little force is necessary why not hand place? It really only takes practice, solid testing technique and some sack to get wild up there. Leave the ironmongery on the groud and see for yourself.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 01:45am PT
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LOOM,
It was only a quip, no Inquisition in mind really. I just find flexible ethics to be rather lame stuff. Better to stand for something than straddle fences with a chafed ass looking silly.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:57am PT
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I only take the post as a reminder we should try to excel when we can. clean ascents are a prime goal to preserve what we have.
Thx for that Steve.
Will I nail a route that has gone clean? Probably. Will i pound the pin as the first option? No. Will I risk death or serious physical injury to make it clean? probably not too much.
that's about all I have to say on that.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:03am PT
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Wow, Steve!! Thanks for putting me in my place, haa haa. I really didn't know that much about Cosmic Trauma prior to going up there. I've never even seen anyone climbing it, other than the guys who did it clean first.
When I asked the locals what they thought, they said they would definitely bring a few pins. I brought two, a blade and an arrow.
You saying that I have an ego about my accomplishments is a direct result of what you think about yourself. Why? Because you do not know me. You could never truly know someone from their writing.
I've always had the greatest respect for you and actually have friends in common. For you to jump on my case like that in a public forum, without ever even meeting me.... is pretty weak.
Should I start calling you out on your bolt ladder on Turning Point that Rob and Justin free climbed recently.
Anyway, I got to go back to work. Have a great night. Cheers!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 02:05am PT
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Munge, I'm glad you appreciated my stance. You have to believe something is possible before you can realize it. We all know that as climbers. Bad fall situations on aid are classic trials by fire. All I'm trying to get people to do is to not make up their minds before they get there.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:13am PT
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Hey Ammon, didn't you call out Ricardo publicly on this very forum?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 02:21am PT
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Ammon, don't feel that because I'm criticizing your actions that I seek to judge you. Those are two distinctly different things. The only way we get to know each other is through the exchange of ideas and like I said in my post, a little heat is sometimes necessary to liquify things. I have no intention of boiling you or anyone else in oil for my own amusement. These issues are real and meaningful. You have spent enough time on El Cap to imagine the rock in its pristine state. My heartfelt desire is to stop the destruction cold, but this has always been an uphill battle. You would not believe how much resistance there is to simply trying hammerless climbing.
As for as anything I've ever aid climbed going free, hats off to them, as long as they don't diminish the challenge for anybody else by altering the route. Climbing always moves forward.
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:44am PT
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I don't see much merit in Steve Grossman's original post. His
post is unnecessarily confrontational and inflammatory. Most
climbers don't even own a piton, the climbing stores hardly
sell pins these days, and hardly anyone gives a sh*t about the
nuances of "clean" climbing versus "nailing" and all the shades
in-between. It seems to me that Steve doesn't like Ammon for
some reason, and found some technicality to heap opprobrium
on him. It's really hard to cast the first stone, unless one
has never ever pounded the hammer. In Steve's case, I daresay
he has wielded the hammer on El Cap on each and every one of
his first ascents.
After reading Steve's message I'm left with the impression
that he is just an old fart harping on the same inanities that
he does in the ethics chapter of his "Climbing Big Walls" book.
He writes, 'Remember the Golden Rule "Dump onto others as you
would have them dump onto you"'. Perhaps it's time to heed his
own message - if you want to dump sh*t on another climber on an
internet forum, be prepared to get dumped on by a whole lot of
others.
To put the whole thing in perspective: In the grand scheme of
things these are really petty squabbles. There are more
important spiritual matters in life.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:32am PT
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Steve,
You actually had an interesting point - that Ammon missed a blind #3 RP placement that was critical to climbing the route clean. If your concern is further damage to the route, it would have been best to stop there and just provide the beta on how to do that move. Maybe a topo and photo of the move?
All the ensuing personal attacks on Ammon, guesses about his ego/motives, etc., are pretty much absurd. And they really divert attention from the real point you had. We are human and we make mistakes sometimes, fail to see the tricky way to do it clean, or fail to free the pitch, etc. Sorry, but it just doesn't mean as much as you claim it does.
Your critique of speed climbing, that it needs to be done in the best possible style, is possibly interesting, but probably too limiting. If we extend your theory to its logical end, then only "onsight free solo" speed records should count. In reality, the speed climber can choose their own style category, just as any climber does (except where climbing is explicitly regulated like hammerless aid in Canyonlands and Arches). The irony of the present example is that Ammon does care about climbing clean and preserving the rock, while you (and [edit:] Mimi) are overplaying your criticism of his one pin move.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:51am PT
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"To put the whole thing in perspective: In the grand scheme of things these are really petty squabbles. There are more important spiritual matters in life."
Excuse me, but I really get sick of hearing this one...
Yes, there is genocide in the Sudan, infants dying of AIDS, species going extinct, and oceans rising - but that doesn't have sh#t to do with climbing ethics and I personally find it lame beyond words every time I hear someone attempt to trivialize climbing ethics in this manner. It is usually bandied about in bolt-related discussions right along side of "just don't clip them" and other equally inane sililoquies.
Now I don't have the wall experience or history to wade into this conversation on the merits of Steve's post or comments about Ammon, both of whom I respect, but the subject does matter. It is front and center in any discussion about protecting rock and routes, and here is an great opportunity for a cross-generational perspective on the topic by two people that do have clue. I for one would appreciate anything either of these gentlemen have to say regardless of what I personally think of the "tone" of the converstaion...
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:35am PT
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Thanks to those who know me, for sticking up for me. They know I'm not out there bashing the hell out of rock for the sake of speed.
Steve, most people that I've talked to, that actually know you, say: "He's just an old cantankerous and opinionated “has-been” feeling unappreciated”.
Well, I don’t know if that’s true because I’ve never met you. I did think of you a lot while on Jolly Roger and thought I’d like to meet you someday. I don’t know…. that first post is a LOT different than your follow-ups. It came off as VERY mean spirited.
I also learned that you hate speed climbers. Why is that, Steve? You should really explore that answer. It might surprise you if you really get to the bottom of that hate. Do you feel inadequate because you can not keep up?
I don’t speed climb for egotistical reasons. I go in a push because sleeping on the cliff has lost a lot of its challenge for me. Hey, I’m just a regular guy who has devoted a LOT of time getting good at wall climbing. BUT, hey….. it’s ONLY climbing. Don’t take it … and yourself, for that matter, so seriously. You come off like your ethics are far above everyone else’s, very elitist and egotistical sounding.
And yes Hardman, I did call Ricardo out. He is a friend of mine and I was doing it in a “give your friend a little shit” way... and find out some info. There is a big difference in the tone of my post to Ricardo, and this one.
Cheers guys!!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Sep 12, 2006 - 06:50am PT
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Haa haa haa!!!
Timmy needs to do a spoof on you, Steve. Too funny!!
[edit] Yep, just got off at 1:00am, night rigging is fun, Knott! haa haa!
[Another edit]: Loom, we need to get an El Cap route in, together. OOOOOOooooaaaaahhhhh!!!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:53am PT
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Jaysus, I probably shouldn’t be throwing my two cents worth in since I haven’t climbed aid since the early 1980s and have yet to finish a route on Cap (one attempt on Salathe), and have only done the West Face of Leaning Tower and South Face of Column back in the mid-1970s...
…but I think Mungeclimber’s comments are how I feel about Steve’s post. And the Nurenberg reference I read as only a quip, so the Godwin Law didn't kick in for me. And while I don't know most of you people, from being on SuperTaco well over a year now, many of you seem like very decent people and darn good climbers, either aid, free or both, so my two cents is not directed at Ammon.
And yes I will finish at least one route on Cap (The Nose or Salathe, hopefully both and more) one day, and I’d hope to do any route clean if possible. That said, if the aid is really hard, I’d probably opt for a couple of pins as backup measures if need be.
But this is coming from a big wall neophyte.
Style is one thing, falling is another… and death or serious injury a whole different matter.
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Leroy
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:58am PT
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Good one Steve.Glad to see someone calling guys out.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:38am PT
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steve i like your style clean. takes a lot more dedication than pounding pins and drilling bolts.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:43am PT
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clint, i think you meant MIMI, not JENNY.
2 different eeee's there.
clint, something else. detailed beta may help others do it hammerless, but at what price? not making a jusgement here, but when topo's state what pro one needs and where then i think something else is lost as well.
patrick take it from a punter. pins are not required on the nose or salathe.
i was against mimi bringing this out earlier. i too believe that what mungeclimber said is spot on. i spose this makes us less ethically pure than others. however, i did retreat off a wall once cuz i was cryin for the hammer and chose not to.
BTW, steve G, is your book the one where Steve Schnieder wrote the chapter on climbing walls fast? sorry i dont have your book but that chapter is awesome.
i was curious about something else steve. what info did you have concerning WoS for your book? why bash those guys so hard?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:55am PT
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Hawkeye, yeah I know that The Nose and Salathe are clean routes, but I meant if I ever get on anything much harder (aid wise) on the Cap. But to be honest, aid climbing never did do much for me. To each their own.
(I wish I was good enough to climb Nose & Salathe free, as I find aid climbing kind of... 'boring' and tedious.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:04am PT
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I did NOT start this.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:08am PT
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Ammon is a friend, so there is a natural tendancy to take his side. The personal (ego) comments are largely unfounded, but I agree with the core message of the OP to the community in general.
Maybe it is just me, but I see a difference in the medium, sandstone vs. granite. Where sandstone is so much more fragile, it is the domain of a more artistic touch, and a worse place to handplace pins. I've seen a bunch of solid handplacements in granite, and can't remember one in sandstone.
After taking out all the specifics of who and where, we are left with speed vs. impact. What should be the top priority in ones mind when climbing. On the ground talk gets loud about style/ethics/effiecency/time records, but let's be honest and say that safety drowns out all that other stuff when it's your ass dangling from a thread. Courage isn't a lack of fear, it is the action in the face of it.
Others with more experience on the keyboard than the rock are quick to throw their two cents in, well guess what, those are Canadian pennies and aren't worth squat here.
Who brings pins on the nose now? NOBODY.
Why? Because a major effort has been made to pave that route like a sidewalk. You can rap from bolts pretty much anywhere on it, so the commitment factor is a joke. That is not the case anywhere else, so when you don't bring historically necessary gear into that environment, you are putting more than your own ass on the line. Rescuers have been killed trying to save people many times.
Bailing from the shield headwall is probably harder than continuing up. So not bringing a hammer because Charlie did it with out one, is negligent and puts others at potential risk.
As for the comment that most climbers don't even own a piton, I just have to shake my head in disgust and wonder why you even think you know what we are talking about. And I picture matching gold lamee slippers and chalk bag hanging proudly on a hook in someones living room.
But I think what is really eating Grossman, who I am generally in awe of, is how much attention speedclimbing is getting, and how little focus there is on the clean ethic. Yes I call it an ethic, not a style, because that's where it comes from.
So for me, I have to say doing Mescalito in 3 days was cool, but the highlight of my El Cap career was cleanclimbing the money pitch on Sunkist. Wiggling ratty trinkets in where Takeda nailed arrows on the cover of the guidebook, made me feel I had acomplished something. I wasn't timing it, but I am sure it was like a 5-6 hour lead. Then Rolo does the whole route in 18 hours. Is one ascent "better" than the other? If you have an answer to that and haven't done the route, your bias is showing.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:24am PT
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So what has more impact, 6 days of piss stains on a wall or 1 pin placement? If you are really serious about clean climbing then you should leave NO trace and carry your piss with you. Otherwise your "Clean" ethic is just the sound of your jaw flapping in the wind.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:32am PT
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I have done a bunch of caving, and always carried a piss bottle. But walls are outside, and it rains quite frequently. You should check it out, outside that is.
It's where the Dominoe's guy brings your pizza from...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:45am PT
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Gotta go with elcapfool on this.
Well said.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:57am PT
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I think what's eating Mr. Grossman (who I'm also in awe of) is a realization of how little influence he has on our actions once we leave the ground. If Mr. Grossman can't trust Ammon not to pound (and Ammon is ten ways of bad-ass) what can he possibly expect from the rest of us chickenshits?
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j_ung
Social climber
Charlotte, NC
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Sep 12, 2006 - 10:20am PT
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Steve Grossman: "The logic of Nuremberg (Hey! Everybody’s doing it, right?) really doesn’t get you anywhere meaningful."
Steve Grossman: "While you seem to be a capable and accomplished climber, your ego is obviously twisting your common sense."
Steve Grossman: "Ammon, don't feel that because I'm criticizing your actions that I seek to judge you."
Steve, I don't know either of you, nor do I know the route, but I know a judgment when I see it. And that, my friend, was it.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Sep 12, 2006 - 10:59am PT
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j_ung = gym climber. go back to rc.com
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j_ung
Social climber
Charlotte, NC
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:19am PT
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"j_ung = gym climber. go back to rc.com"
Oh, sorry. What with all the back biting, flame wars, tired rehashed topics, holier-than-thou attitudes, opinionated bitches and ten-foot poles up asses... I thought that's where I was.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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Ahh, the internet. Repository of all human knowledge and domain of all those without any.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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For the general punters in the crowd, one has to know Steve a little before jumping to judgements.
Steve's a taciturn gentleman who chooses his words carefully, and then speaks them with a calm, quiet voice. Always upfront, he'll sometimes hit a nervecenter with such calm, and with such a sly smile, that one's intital gut response (to what would otherwise be considered "them fightin' words") is completely muted without much choice in the matter. The profundity of the encounter sinks in only much later.
Never happened to me, but I saw him do it with other mutual friends, much to their sudden surprise. One thing that is for sure with Mr. Grossman, though, is that he walks the talk.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:49am PT
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Less boring than most recent threads.
Ammon,
I don't think you have really responded to SG's criticism.
While reliable beta for routes in Zion can be difficult to obtain, and while your nailing "transgression" minor, the greater issue of hammering on a route that can be done without has not been addressed.
So too with Healy's pertinant point of sandstone fragility.
And you already know how I feel about the need for speed compromising careful removal technique.
What say you TO THE ISSUES?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:50am PT
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Ammon wrote:
yes Hardman, I did call Ricardo out. He is a friend of mine and I was doing it in a “give your friend a little shit” way... and find out some info. There is a big difference in the tone of my post to Ricardo, and this one.
I just pointed it out because when I first read your post, I didn't get the sense that
you were "just giving your friend a little shit". I could be wrong, but the fact is that
you deleted it shortly after - and Ricardo felt the need to start another thread to
publicly respond. Since it was deleted, it is knott possible to go back and re-read
(which helps illuminate my strong distaste for the ability to delete entire threads).
In any event, anyone who does the Quad Dipsea (Mill Valley) is OK in my book. ;-)
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:51am PT
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Yes, Steve you made a terrible mistake of ensuing a personal attack on Ammon. It just made people see you in the light of an extreme egotist even though that was not your real intention.
Steve, clean climbing in Yosemite has taken a front burner and the conscientious effort of the climbing community is striving constantly towards this. The amount of hammer nailing is continually going down each year as people become more experienced and the tools are becoming more advanced for clean ascents.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:56am PT
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Ahh, the internet. Repository of all human knowledge and domain of all those without any.
Yo present and accounted for ... SIR!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:04pm PT
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...the climbing stores hardly sell pins these days, and hardly anyone gives a sh*t about the nuances of "clean" climbing versus "nailing" and all the shades in-between.
Gag me with a spoon...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:04pm PT
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Ammon,
My position on ethics and style is simply pure unadulterated old school. You can characterize me any way you like but deal with the substance of what I am saying directly.
I have no doubt that if you had left the iron on the ground in this case then you would have worked it out. Are you still willing to say at this point, with the specifics in front of you, that choosing to mar the route by pounding a pin here was the only or best option available to you? My contention here remains that haste or the lack of a clear ethical position on your part eroded your otherwise solid judgement leading to my inquiry. This is fencing with the tips on brother. As you have built a house of cards around "efficient" climbing and seem willing to contradict your own core values to move a little faster here and there I am left wondering what you take away from the indiscretion when little regret is evident in your words.
To hate speed climbing and by extension speed climbers is utterly pointless. Once this framework fosters poor style, poor judgement and destructive tactics (especially when routes are done repeatedly for a better time) the whole thing collapses. If you just can't be bothered, that is why the gauntlet is on the ground. While it is a rusty and venerable old thing forged for battle by visionary pioneers during the Golden Era (pre Bridwell)it still has weight and relevence and can produce a mightly dust cloud when it lands on the battlefield. I really shouldn't have to club you with it. Again, deal with substance.
As regards the Turning Point, the first "bolt ladder" shows up on pitch 13. Is that the one your friends freed? If so, good for them. With the exception of pitch 3 (which aids up a tiny dihedral just left of the second pitch of the Nose) virtually all the pitches below the exit right from the Half Dollar were established free on the first ascent without the use of chalk. My low impact ethic means leave no trace and I repeated many of the hardest Valley face climbing testpieces chalkless. By pitch, the hardman's start to the Free Blast goes as follows: 5.11a, 5.11c, 5.10a A3, 5.11c, 5.11c A-0, 5.11a and on to the Salathe boltladder two pitches below the Half Dollar. If that is your best shot fella, good luck finding your singed little toes.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:09pm PT
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Bring on the (clmbing related) blistering repartee!
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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Frankly, I don't care about this thread, but wow, Ammon:
"You saying that I have an ego about my accomplishments is a direct result of what you think about yourself. Why? Because you do not know me. You could never truly know someone from their writing."
That one really resonates with me. Good stuff.
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:25pm PT
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and the house of cards comes crashing down! damn you ammon, you scum of the earth!
look what trouble you've stirred up now! a 50 post thread on supertopo! all hell breaks loose! its over buddy!
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
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mar the route by pounding a pin
Is this an assumption or a fact? Is there some sort of evidence to back up this claim?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
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Hey Ron,
Its been a long time man. Thanks for steering the cattle drive back up canyon. I know that you have spent a lot of time and energy trying to preserve and protect the soft rock environment by getting climbers to think first. If nobody speaks up then the crap and damage keeps piling up and sliding downhill. If you really care, raise your voice and be heard. The dialog is far more important than the perceived bickering.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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" How about all the numourous parties doing Zodiac, Trip, Shield, New Dawn, PO, Dihedral, Ten Days After, etc, etc, etc...that nail? Why not bitch at them too? " -
Watched 2 guys climb TDA last year. They were having a great time. They did some nailing. Watched 2 guys bail off it this year. They weren't having a great time. They had no pins.
Me, I'm going to repeat an obscure aid line in Yosemite in a few weeks and I plan on nailing where ever I need to. I like nailing. And I don't care what anybody thinks. Many routes wouldn't exist without pitons for the initial few ascents, now would they? I don't even know who Steve Grossman is - should I??
Hell, I need to carry a hammer to clean offset nuts and stoppers. I can't clean climb without a hammer!!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Ben=troll
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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WBraun,
Why is it that challenging someone on their stated views and accomplishments is considered an attack? We are people of substance here and none of this dialog has to be taken personally by the participants. I am sorry that this is the perception out there when I take a stand. You have been through all the same times as myself and heard the call to arms. "Better we raise ourselves than lower the climbs." I am truly inspired by those that do and seek to understand the contrarians out there. Climbers are anti-authoritarian and independent by nature so sometimes a little heat is required. I am the idiot bastard son of the American clean climbing scene and the tokens of my extreme in routes and ideas are intended to inspire introspection. If I had merely posted a treatise on clean aid I don't think much would come of it. I value your perspective and leadership immensely and don't feel like Ammon's person is the sacrificial lamb here.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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Ben,
you said a mouthful;
"nailing where ever I need to. I like nailing. And I don't care what anybody thinks."
Hmmmm.
Seems to me that you are the poster boy for irresponsible climbers, the perfect justification for regulation.
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Jonny D
Social climber
Lost Angelez, Kalifornia
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
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thank you Dixie Gal, that was beautiful.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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Really Ron? Let's see Steve do a second ascent of a route that takes 20 knife blades clean. How would one do an ascent of the rurp / beak pitch on Reticent Wall clean??
I like to do my best climbing but I'm not about to get injured or killed for " better ethics ". This is a f*#king sport, not a jihad!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:08pm PT
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Ben,
does the inability to climb these lines without such tools justify their use when it is done without a plan for preserving the experience of those to follow?
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
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Those routes would not exist except for the use of pitons. No pitons = no route, or lots more bolts. This is an old argument.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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Ben,
you haven't answered the question.
This is a very telling reticense as it goes back to my 9:57am post.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:19pm PT
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Mind you I'm not against the use of a hammer when it IS with a plan for a durable route.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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Well, there's climbing where nobody's allowed to nail nothing. This will happen when Herr Breedlove makes himself dictator of Yosemite. (Pending.) Ron may be in this camp, not sure.
Then there's climbing where nailed placements are kept to the absolute minimum. Some thoughts:
 Safety is often an excuse for nailing--in the heat of the snail-eye, this is nearly always a cop-out (my personal experience.)
The "20 Blade Pitch" will undoubtedly require blades, but NOT 20 of them. Tunnel vision sets in on routes/pitches like that and you say oh yeah here's the cherry blade pitch and start hammering. Clean isn't even on the radar at that point (my personal experience.)
Hammers are addictive. Done harder nailing routes that join easier, cleaner routes and found myself nailing unnecessarily.
Lack of self-awareness/creativity/?. Watched a partner swing into P8 of TT, according to ST: "C3 camhooks or A2 sawed angles or 5.10R." He was not a strong free climber at all, so 5.10 was out, and was a novice/intermediate aider who felt incapable so C3 without trying it or trying something besides camhooks. So he nailed.
Everybody effs up, even Ammon, who is immortal like in that Sean Connery movie with the swords.
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
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Golden Age? Anyone recall reading Royal Robbins' Basic and Advanced Rockcraft books? He repeatedly calls out the pure lunacy of the enforcers of such obsessive clean climbing practices. Yes clean climbing is better, I would say most if not all climbers even if they have never aid climbed know that now days. Were talking about one pin here though! One! Pages of debate because of one pin! Who put it in? Some green novice that was scared? NO! NO! NO!
One of the most respected wall climbers of our time placed one pin! Thats ridiculous for us to debate this. Did he add bolts to it? No. Would most of us place pins there in the same circumstance? Probably yes. Where are pins acceptable to place? On aid climbs...Yes pins are still used in aid climbing last I checked. If a climber as experienced as Ammon decides to use a pin while aid climbing he should be the last person we would call out. Climbing is not so legalistic that we must be required to call up first ascentionist and ask them about every piece of gear we should use and know every trick to skip past the challenging spots. Aid climbing is problem solving and there is more than one solution, nailing is usually not the first choice, but is still a valid one.
Don't forget that most of the incredible all clean ascents must rely on pins that are already fixed in place to begin with. It should not be dictated to the whole community that just because one guy can do a pitch on only dicey hooks and ball nuts that everyone else must take the same level of risk when the history of climbing is certainly not this! If he decides to climb like this; good for him, but this doesn't become law now. This is similar to free climbing in many ways. Because the zodiac has been free climbed should we all now free climb it? Because someone soloed a pitch should we chop all the bolts and only do it when we are willing to solo the climb? Artificial inflation of climbing grades in aid climbing too?
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
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" Some lines NEED pins. Some do NOT. Those are different things " -
That's all I was trying to say. Steve made it sound like using a pin or two was a crime against nature - like dumping chemicals or something.
Man, this sport is getting way to Politically Correct for me.
Ron - you're the poster child for irresponsible gun ownership - bringing class 3 weapons into National Parks!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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HalHammerHead,
you too are a justification for more regulation.
Ben,
this was interesting to a point but now that you have resorted to ejaculating BS it just shows how weak your debating skills are.
(Pretty funny how some people believe you can't legally possess a firearm in a park.)
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
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Quite frankly I'm more concerned about idiots in Yosemite spray painting orange dots on the rocks than I am about someone using a few pins on the Shield!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Ben,
you're still not thinking long term. Spray paint CAN be removed with at least some success, but pin scars do not heal.
Some MAY produce clean placements, but without a plan its hit or miss.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:02pm PT
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Well, I'll strive to use only upward blows for pin cleaning on my obscure nailing 2nd ascent in the Valley in a couple of weeks, ok Ron? I'll give it a try. I'll make an effort - that's all I can promise.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:07pm PT
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The trouble is, Ben, that is more than most are willing to do and the damage is cumulative.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
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While I agree with the substance of Steve's original and subsequent posts I do have to say the "tone" is [repeatedly] a bit harsh relative his wanting to staying 100% focused on the substance of the issue.
If I "get" his complaint, then it would seem these questions are at the heart of the substantive speed vs. clean argument:
Did the desire for tick, time, or top eliminate any possibility of an ethics-based retreat at the onset prior to launching?
Was topping out (in a short time) the sole priority and imperative?
Was a hammer brought to insure the tick, time, top?
I'm totally psyched and inpired by Ammon's climbing, the number of routes he's accomplished, and the skills his times prove he's mastered. But I do believe Steve and others have a legitimate question here relative to those that will inevitably follow Ammon's [speed aiding] lead and influence. At what price should such ascents or resume be gained with regards to impact, "cleanliness", and route preservation?
Of course, all the above depends on the degree of Ammon's intent and deliberation at the time and on the spot. Rather than a matter of fanatical "tick, top, time" it sounds to me more like he simply took someone's advice to take a pin or two and after not figuring a move out did the obvious thing. No crime there, we've likely all done it or something like it on more than one occasion.
But on thinking about it I believe even in that Steve has at least a thread of contention to call Ammon out on it all given he does have so much experience. I personally think I'm hearing Steve say that, given who Ammon is / has become and what he's attempting to accomplish [overall], that he should better consider such [ethical] matters in advance given how many others are likely to follow his lead as a trendsetter (even if Ammon never deliberately strived for that role...). I personally don't think Ammon is about tick, time, top at the expense of the rock - far from it - but appearances now count in today's hero worshipping, media hungry, and commercial climate. To that end I see no particular harm in everyone re-visiting the substance of Steve's query even if the personal edge sounds a bit sharp.
[ Edit: Oh, and just curious, was the pin left fixed or was it cleaned? ]
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:20pm PT
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SG: "I just find flexible ethics to be rather lame stuff. Better to stand for something than straddle fences with a chafed ass looking silly."
Totally clean climbing means you should turn back from your FAs (or any other climbs) when they require any pins or bolts. Someone may have been able to do them clean in the future. Like it or not most climbs require flexible ethics, except for climbs like Nutcracker that show no signs of rock damage after the FA.
To have a good debate what is acceptable, we need to examine very specific examples, like the original placement in question (or generalize that to a generic question). Or these discussions tend to degrade to "you don't care about clean climbing" when I suspect most of us do.
HH:"It should not be dictated to the whole community that just because one guy can do a pitch on only dicey hooks and ball nuts that everyone else must take the same level of risk when the history of climbing is certainly not this!"
Agree? Not agree? This is a good expample of a specific statement that has merit in these discussions. Putting everyone on one side of the fence or the other won't get us anywhere.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
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I think Ammon just missed the placement to the side because those dreadlocks obscured his vision.
"Get haircut, and get a real job."lol
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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i think in part this discusion is fueled by an incorrect assumption of speed climing tactics. ergo, a speed climber would be likely to make a rash decision to bash a pin in order to move quickly.
this does not compute in my mind... i would think in trying to move quickly a pin would be one of your last choices. clean gear takes less time and effort to place, and would by default be the way you want to go. especially on a route where you've only brought a couple of pins and didn't come with the mindset of a 'nailing' route.
this thread would have some validity for a bitch session if what you were trying to prevent is a rash of speed climbers nailing the hell out of routes that shouldn't be. but IMO, i just don't think such a thing exists, becouse by the nature of speed climbing this just doesn't make sense to me.
in such a case of a pitch going clean only becouse you can make this one crazy hail marry placement, when a pin can placed easily and actually makes more sense in the grand scheme of things, well the pin will probobly make more sense. maybe it should be left fixed, or as ron advocates be placed and removed with the correct technique to make a nice nut gobbling scar. then it will evolve to be a truly hammerless pitch, not a one move wonder.
besides, givin his resume, character and willingness to take a whip, i feel pretty much confident that if ammon needs a pin, he needs a pin. maybe sometimes he's wrong becouse he's human, but chances are pretty good that he's going to be right much more often than not.
(really, i don't have any idea why i felt like chimming in on this one....)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:39pm PT
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What's that Lassie? Timmy's in the well?
(Actually using pins for aid has several speed advantages.)
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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" What's that Lassie? Timmy's in the well? "
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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Ooooh!
And its all so shiny and pretty!
lol
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
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Jeeze, Ryan, want to out me or something?
Regarding my pending rule making abilities, I am really only interested in supporting the debate on what the rules should be.
However, in thinking about aid climber's free ride on pin scaring, I reached a conclusion that a rule saying that the only hammering that can be done is to place a bolt would be a shock but not the end to the world to Valley aid climbers.
The best part is that all routes except maybe the Nose would get new first ascents. (Okay, it would be a mess.)
I am guessing that as a community there would be agreement that some current routes would not be re-climbed for a while until someone invented a new set of tools or very high fall factor free climbing. But I think I made this statement on another thread before.
The most heartening thing in this thread is Werner's statement that the aid community is moving steadily toward clean climbing. Werner also points out one of the practical issue of not carrying a hammer and pins and heads on El Cap.
The most annoying dribbles have already been attacked. But I cannot resist a little more:
"I don't understand why you are so upset? I like to drive my 4 wheeler through flower gardens. It's fun to watch the dirt spray up and hear the sound of the engine gunning. People are such wimps. Besides, I saw foot prints in the dirt, so don't be telling me about 'leave no trace behind.' People should worry about important things, like world peace, or global warming, or something. Jeeze!!!"
The most unsettling thing in this thread is Ammon's post saying that he took pins on a route that he thought of in terms of all clean. What's with that Ammon? Why not just back off if you cannot meet an established, higher standard. Free climbers have been doing it for years. Aid climbers demand it if a hopeful is not able to get past thin aid without adding bolts. (Throat clearing here.)
I would also go so far as to say that it is expected of our champions. Of which you are one. Clean climbing in Yosemite got its start from the likes of Robbins and Chouinard making a big stink and showing the way. John Stannard did it in the Gunks in the same time period.
Roger (or Herr Buzz, depending on your take)
Edited
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:01pm PT
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classic Ouch!
Eurford...stop showing pictures of your pretty gear and pretty dog!
I really think the title of this thread is inappropriote.
Steve's choice of words discount the credibility of Ammon's ascents. As if his accomplishments are built on lies or unethical tactics or something. This is bullsh#t.
ducey says Steve is some soft spoken gentelman, which may be true in person. But on the internet he is just another dick with the rest of us.
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ewto
Mountain climber
My mommy's tummy
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
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OK ... complete and total NOOB question here, and I've only done very little aid climbing back in the 80's, and never used a piton... so forgive my ignorance, BUT:
Are there places pitons can be used for protection where NO other protection (cams, chocks, hexes, ballnutz ... or whatever) will work? Every place I can picture putting a piton, I can imagine that SOME piece of other pro must be able to do the trick... am I wrong?
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:19pm PT
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for the record, i have no idea what ron ment by bringing up lassie. but if ron wants lassie, ron gets lassie.
and note: NO PINS on that sheepdogs rack.
the camera knocks years off the life of climbing gear.
ouch: if i was ammon, i'd frame that sh#t.
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
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"The trouble is, Ben, that is more than most are willing to do and the damage is cumulative."
Ron has a great point. Most folks don't even try....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:26pm PT
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Fat,
I'm disappointed in you.
Does lack of ability justify your altering a route if its not needed?
You don't have to free it, but you should respect that if left unaltered the route could last.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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" Are there places pitons can be used for protection where NO other protection (cams, chocks, hexes, ballnutz ... or whatever) will work? " -
Absolutely. Nothing clean fits in Rurp seam or a knifeblade seam for instance.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:02pm PT
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That's why I do allow for some use of nailing, but there has to be a plan for route preservation or else the action becomes selfish and unethical.
Ethics is a term that speaks to the way our actions affect others.
Fat,
I'm disappointed with you. You side stepped the question.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:08pm PT
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"This thread is valuable in that it raises the ethics question and makes each climber re-think personal values. I'm sure Ammon is considering his decision making, only he can make the personal values choice."
OMG, something fattrad and I can agree on, hallelujah [edit: Allahu Akbar]!!! And I agree with Dingus, now this - this is a religious war - but one we can all win I think...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:17pm PT
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"" Are there places pitons can be used for protection where NO other protection (cams, chocks, hexes, ballnutz ... or whatever) will work? " -
Ben: Absolutely. Nothing clean fits in Rurp seam or a knifeblade seam for instance."
How about a #1 Crack'n up? (big smile...)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:21pm PT
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Don't count your chickens Healy. We still have some bath water with THIS baby.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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I'm with you Ron. As an old sandstone man myself, I try not to scratch too hard or too often...
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:27pm PT
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Well down the street a few minutes ago we heard the sound of the one hand beating ................
What do yah gonna do now?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:33pm PT
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Fat,
not sure what you mean by the Potter problem. If I had put up a route that required pins and then he climbed it hammerless I would feel honor bound not to alter it further, even if it meant being denied a route that I had actually established.
I sure as hell wouldn't blame him for someone else's decision to exploit it for their own purposes, or vandalize his house out of foolish resentment.
Werner,
there's usually an option to back off.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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Although not directly in line with the original post, Fatty brings up a good point.
For example, say there is a route that's mostly clean and has a short section of nailing. Someone comes along and frees the nailing section at 5.14X. Now the route has gone clean. Only the one super stud chick who freed it can get it clean. Does that mean no one else can ever nail that section and climb the route again?
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
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Ammon can sleep soundly knowing that this thread is no longer about him, but just simply another opportunity for everybody to rehash and restate their opinion about nailing.
we should just have a FAQ stickied to the top of the forum where everybody gets one paragraph to state their rant. then in the future we can just refer to it and avoid this kind of mess all together.
hey, but at least its about climbing!
note: its been raining all day, i'm going a little stir crazy being stuck in the office. normaly i don't think i'm this annoying. thanks for helping me pass the time.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:50pm PT
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Fet, I believe that I answered that in the previous post.
Highly hypothetical in my case though, for while I might use pins to constructively scar/ open up a crack, I would make certain it was clean climable after I left it.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:56pm PT
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i also don't think it's that far out, Fet.
we don't need to deal in extreme hypotheticals on this one. The route in question as well as Crack in the Cosmic Egg, The Lowe Route on AL, and Swoop Gimp all see pins on occasion, even today, despite the fact that they've gone clean numerous times at C3/4.(Not positive about CITCE, but i know of pitches on that one that have seen C and A ascents in the last year.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:11pm PT
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". . .but I think all it means is that you can now clip the additional bolts the FFAscetionist added to free the route with a long cheater stick."
no, no, no, jim, you're missing the point. there's no bolt to clip, even with a cheater stick. Free climbers aren't allowed to alter the route, only aid climbers.
edit:i've always found this part of the contradiction funny.
"You better not add any f#cking bolts to my route just b/c you think it's scary"
"I'll nail whatever the f#ck i want if i'm scared up there"
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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"Fat,
I'm disappointed with you. You side stepped the question."
LOL! Don't worry Ron. He'll be back when he gets his marching orders explained. Maybe Matt can help him out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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Trash,
I don't think you're obliged to free it, merely not to alter it.
Perhaps a combo of dicey clean aid with the odd free move will suffice, perhaps a cheater stick, perhaps something else.
But if it can be done clean how selfish is it for someone to alter it whining about about safety when they can choose to climb something that lies more within their abilities?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:50pm PT
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Free and hammerless aren't the same thing. Fatrad, you make it sound like these guys don't own pin racks or don't use them for their free climbs.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
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Truth is, Melissa, I don't think that they are placing pins for pro on free lead.
But thats just the opinion of a lowly gun owner.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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They might not be placing them very often on a free lead (although it probably happens)...but sometimes they do get placed on an aid lead that preps the pitch for a subsequent free lead. Not saying this is how the all of the gear gets there on those otherwise non-clean pitches that go free, but it does happen some of the time.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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Which enables clean climbers as well, unless removed subsequently which would render it NOT a clean ascent.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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Well we went down to the captain with the 200 watt bullhorn and told the guys who were beating on pins that a couple of old farts on Supertopo said you can't do that and to drop your hammers now.
A very nice stream of words came back, none of which can be repeated here. Hold your ears children.
Just kidding, hahaha
Tommorrow is another day, I do hope the sun will still come up in the east then ........
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:25pm PT
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If you don't learn a little humility and gracefullness from climbing walls, you learn nothing at all.
JL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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Hi John,
apparently there's room to learn hubris as well,...
Werner,
you're just not using the proper incentive.
(see "Khyrgistan retreat option")
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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Ron,
perhaps it is time for the article. I vaguely remember the article. Constructive scarring I think it was?
But then I would have to ask SG and others (Deuce), whether they believe in the article or knott?
Just seems like consensus among climbers is a very difficult thing.
One thing many here seem to agree (at least so far) is that while hammering, a little concern could be made for the placement and cleaning it to hopefully allow a clean placement in the future.
Gary
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:34pm PT
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I haven't read most of this thread, and for a few minutes didn't even know it was SO long! Damn the new "pages" addition to the forum! =)
"Falling is just part of the adventure" -- Steve, if you think this is an issue for Ammon, you clearly haven't ever even spoken to the man about climbing.
"It really only takes practice, solid testing technique and some sack to get wild up there." -- This is a little more than a "little heat"... Seems more like a little "talking shit"! You clearly have no clue when it comes to Ammon.
To say that Ammon's ascents are tied to ego is flat out ignorance. For someone with all of the things Ammon has going for him and the amazing ascents he has done, he could really be in a whole different spot as far as sponsors, etc. if he *did* have the huge ego you mistakenly elude to him having. He's actually a pretty humble guy who really doesn't do much, if anything, to promote himself.
Maybe you should check some facts or *at least* read a little about the person you're going to attack before doing so next time. At least try to get into the ball park with your wild throw at the batter. Sheesh!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
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Hey Werner, I think that you are right, but most of the time the arguement is won or lost with the listeners, not the participants.
Best, Roger
(Edited)
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Burt
Gym climber
hookers and blow baby...
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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The issue from more than one person that has meet Steve in person is the speed climbing thing. He has been VERY vocal about this style of climbing and this was his shot to nail Ammon to the cross. Let it out Steve, f*#k the nailing what do you really feel about the speed climbing? Then we will all see what the f*#k this is all about, a man watching something he had a great deal making pass him up with lightning speed. No body answered my question, how many clean ascents has the route seen? I witnessed the clean ascent when Ammon and Flyn Brian did space shot in like a 1 hour and some change. There are many things to "nail" Ammon about (you do have a radical life bro) but his climbing is not one of them.
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:45pm PT
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I climbed Cosmic Trauma (and Swoop Gimp) about 2 weeks after Ammon and Chris's ascent (2 days each) and also nailed very softly in the same place. I also placed that #3 offset nut after the roof and then quickly placed another nut after that because it was a pretty crappy placement.
To nail under that roof is SOP there and as long as you do it softly it is the acceptable way.
Also, I bet he and Chris didn't haul a bag!! Hmmm, what causes more damage, placing one pin or hauling on that route??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:47pm PT
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"softly"??
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todd-gordon
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 11:50pm PT
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Use a chock; save the rock. Use a pin; save your skin.
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:00am PT
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From Happy gilmore
'Just tap it in the hole' Sorry..
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:06am PT
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add,
i was very disagreeable to mimi for bringing this up on other threads.
however, i think you condensed the whole discussion into this: "SOP"...i am pretty sure that is what SG and PR and others are tryin to say. the SOP must change.
i am not casting stones or disagreeing with you. hell, i aint even agreein with them but behind the keyboard it makes for interesting dicussions.
but i am pretty sure that mr SG's point is this, "if a route has gone clean, it should be climbed clean from here on out".
now some of you (i happen to think similarly bein a punter and all) are advocating that once a route goes clean, it may be to dangerous. being indepedant and all, we feel that being in the drivers seat (facin a long fall or retreat) WE are the best to make that decision. hell, you would not be a real climber if you didnt think that.
but, some of the ideas here need to be looked at closer. ok, continue nailing, make the placements eventually easier. or fix pro (hopefully decent) or provide more beta so that others can eventually climb the route the same way, clean or hammerless.
you see the quandary here? are we not out for adventure? all of the last three outcomes lessen the danger and adventure level. is this not what has happened to some of the routes already?
now, think about repeating he route clean. if these were rules, then that would mean more retreats, right? now not everyone plays the game the same way. it feels shitty when you retreat tryin to do the right thing and some lesser (in your eyes) climber makes it up by pounding. WTF? that dont feel good.
sorry for the rambling, but to me, identfying the outcomes and re-evaluating what we are after is useful in this discussion.
i do think that SG may come across like an a##hole (welcome to ST, must seem like home), but the points are salient.
i thought it was wrong to bring a single placement up but hell, it beats the rajmit threads....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:08am PT
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Use an excuse and side step a noose??
I'll respond to the last when I'm sober,...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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ron, what a f&&&in lame ass excuse LOL.
take care.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:33am PT
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Hey,
don't razz me.
I think we might be on the same side.
(and that the thread title might be a bit over the top)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Damn!
I thought this thread was gonna be about a card game at Ammon's house!
I'm sure if Ammon would have known that all he had to do was find a blind placement and spend 3 hours making it work, he would have done that instead.
Where's the S. Grossman SuperDuperTopo®™™ when you need it?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:53am PT
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Is it also SOP to keep on "softly" nailing this little hole until the rating changes?
Whoever gave the beta to Ammon about this so-called SOP, what's your story?
How often do you decide to ignore the efforts of others and nail when it suits you and show zero foresight? How about doing a route that is within your limits in the first place in order to climb in good style and not lower the bar? Once a route's gone clean, can't you see fit to leave it alone?
Maybe the words "good style" and "ethics" turn some of you off because you think they're corny or something. You have to be aware that you're on a slippery slope.
Some of you continue to fuss about personal attacks, etc. Maybe if the people getting questioned weren't beating their chest in public about their actions, they wouldn't get asked in public about them.
All of you guys/gals that condone this bullsh#t appear to be so confused and lacking in any understanding about what clean climbing advocates stand for. The concerns have been spelled out clearly. If you simply can't be bothered to see beyond your own needs and consider your impact, it's a real shame. You know damned well this isn't about one f#king pin placement. Why it is that your judgement doesn't place any value on fairness and protecting our resources are beyond me. Are you really so blind or are you really that myopic?
And this nonsense about these advocates, including me, being high-and-mighty, elitist, pooh-don't-stink, etc. is really transparent and disingenuous. Get real.
Peace, love, and a frosty enema of committment to you all,
Mimi
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:07am PT
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I'm sure it's been said before, possibly in this very thread... If the style or ethic you're trying to push is that "once a climb goes clean it chould go clean from then on", then logic would say that this would carry over to the free climbing aspect of these same routes. Once it's gone all free, it should go *only* free after that, right? After all, there are "clean" techniques, such as cam hooking that harm the rock as well. Maybe no one continues the logic because no one here is capable of doing the routes we're discussing free. I suppose if people who have and can do them free were here pushing this "ethic" then they'd also be as#@&%es and elitist too, right?
Pot, meet kettle.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:28am PT
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"If you simply can't be bothered to see beyond your own needs and consider your impact, ....."
That my dear is a very dangerous statement.
Everyone is doing that, knowingly or unknowingly even Steve.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:19am PT
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I still say it's overkill to analyze one pin placement, but one aspect from previous threads which is not mentioned much in this thread is the concept that "the rock changes" (especially in sandstone). I haven't climbed the pitch in question, so I'm in no position to judge this explanation, but it's plausible to me.
It's also possible that the "blind nut placement" is a long reach to the lip of the roof, and if Ammon is not as tall as John Fowler, maybe he can't make that move without first putting in a pin in between. Chris Mac thought it might go clean by equalizing two tiny slider nuts.
I am very much guessing on these, so I feel it's unfair to slam Ammon or his explanation from our PCs a year after the pin placement that some people seem so upset about. Nobody else here has actually done this pitch, right?
[Edit: addiroid did it and used the pin - see his posts above and below, also Ultrabiker did it in 1995, see his post below - thanks to them for shedding some direct light on the question]
Quotes and references to other posts on supertopo are given below to explain the above.
-----------
Timeline:
October 2003: John Fowler ("WideCrackJack") does the first clean ascent of Cosmic Trauma.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=25610&msg=25739#msg25739
Ammon witnesses it, and congratulates him. John also posts beta on the cruxes:
"There are probably two cruxes. The first is at the top of the corner on the second A3 pitch, blind nut placement to a beak/crack'n'up placement. The second crux is the hooking on the A3+ pitch."
December 2005: Ammon and Chris Mac do a one day ascent of the route. Chris Mac posts his trip report.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=127935&msg=127935#msg127935
Chris freely offers:
"The route was rated A3 but we knew it had gone clean once. He led the first aid pitch clean. On the second aid pitch, he nailed one bugabook (big knifeblade). This would be the only hammered placement on the route. I think you can do that one move clean if you equalize the tinyest slider nuts. Or maybe you can do one sketchy free move around it?"
Chris' topo here:
http://www.supertopo.com/topos/obscurities/cosmic_trauma.jpg
September 8, 2006. In the "fixed ropes to sickle?" thread, Mimi asks Ammon to "please explain to the community why you recently nailed a section of sandstone in Zion that had gone clean"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=249148&msg=250692#msg250692
Ammon's response:
"You must be talking about Cosmic Trauma. It has gone clean once, I was climbing Spaceshot when they were on it.
Yes, I put one piton in after I tried everything else. I've talked to two other parties since the clean ascent and they had to use the same pin, in the same place. The rock changes!"
And an excerpt from his later response at the end of that same thread:
"Anyway, one of the parties I've talked to since the clean ascent said they placed 8-10 pitons"
-----------------------
This seems like a reasonable explanation of the misunderstanding to me - Mimi seems to think that once a sandstone route has gone clean, it will continue to go clean. Ammon says the rock changes, most likely [my inference] because it was nailed again in the span of two years between the first clean ascent and his ascent. Earlier in the thread, Mimi blames Ammon for the nailing (of the one pin) that will presumably prevent future clean ascents. It seems that Mimi doesn't trust Ammon or doesn't understand the possibly unclear timing of the other ascents where it was nailed.
I'm all for promoting clean climbing (as are most people), but I doubt the Ammon-bashing is the right approach. Maybe that move on Cosmic Trauma will become a highly sought testpiece as people try their luck on the move that Ammon couldn't get to go clean. Maybe a lot more pins will get placed there as other people fail. Or maybe they will go hammerless and back off if they can't get it to go clean. I'm curious to see, even though no firm conclusion can be drawn on the one pin placement, since the rock may change again in the meantime (it's sandstone). I'm all for accepting Ammon's judgement that he didn't think he could do it clean and his challenge to others to try it and see what they can do.
Steve Grossman said several parties have done it without pounding. Well, name them and when they did it.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 13, 2006 - 07:24am PT
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You know, I agree (98%) with Fattrad's post of 12:17pm yesterday (post 85?), perhaps the first time I have really ever agreed with Fattrad.
As much as I'd like to, as a 5.10/5.11? climber I am probably never going to free El Cap (or other) routes that have been freed (by a handful of individuals) but I'd still like to do those routes. Am I prevented from doing them if I have to use aid where somebody else was able to climb free?
Of course not, as not any one of us alone owns that rock, so it is in the public domain. However, I also belong to a community and I would like to adhere to that community's standards as much as possible, for ethical reasons, for style, for decorum, as well as to avoid any grief said community may give to me if I transgress in any manner.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 08:23am PT
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sheeesh mimi,
i was wondering when/if you were going to join and bring that kind, sensitive, female touch we a%%holes were all lacking. thanks for joining.
i dont think this is about the free thing. it is about climbing with minimum impact. in fact, i wold o so far as to say once he route goes clean, protection bolts should not be added as well. but then i would be assuming mr SG's point.
ron has been decrying route preservation on this site for a while now. if he cn just get his a&& out of bed and ave some coffey...
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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 08:35am PT
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"Nobody else here has actually done this pitch, right?" (Clint Cummings)
I have done that pitch.
And I did try to use the slider nut (only one, didn't equalize but read further) about 10-12 times, each and every time it pulled with about 1/4 of body weight. I may not be as dainty as Mimi's sweet self, but at 180 pounds + light rack I am pretty average. I think we knew it had gone clean. I THINK. Not sure, brain's a bit foggy from electrophysiology class now.
Anyways, yes it is just one pin and we should try to get it clean as possible. But when all else doesn't work, ya nail. We do try as best as possible to get everything clean, but both my climbing partner and I have girlfriends and a lot of student loan debt to be paid back. And you can't DO either of those from a wheelchair.
And PITON RON: Yes, I said "softly". As in, "not heavy" pounding. Ya see, I sit for about 12 hours a day now in grad school and have become much more LIGHT than my construction days 3 years ago. I am not capable of anything over "soft" nailing.
If anyone has done this route let them speak up or forever remain behind their keyboard talking sh#t. I say again, Ammon and company had much less impact by doing it in a day even with the questionable pin placement than the rest of us mere mortals who take 2 days to do it and drag a haul bag up the entire route!!!
Just a little advice on the last pitch - Don't go right!! The whole mountain is falling off of itself!!! We got to shuttle loads up an entire ropelength of dirt and huge sliding blocks. But that's what you get when you lead at night on 4th class. Beautiful weather in January though last year.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:48am PT
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". . . but both my climbing partner and I have girlfriends and a lot of student loan debt to be paid back. And you can't DO either of those from a wheelchair."
here's the arguement again. what i fail to see here is the difference between sinking a bolt and sinking a pin. both are done to increase safety b/c people are scared.
i'm not attacking ammon here, i don't think this one incident is that imporant. i'm just curious about the nature this thought process.
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:56am PT
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how on earth can you fail to see the diffrence between in a pin and a bolt???
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:09am PT
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think long term, not all rock is DL hard. one pin placement in sugarland can be the dif. btwn a useable placment and non.
in zion, both change the rock permanantly, one is accpeted by many of the aid climbers on the forum, the other is disagreeable to all. both are ostensibly placed to save one's skin as it were.
if the pin is crap, why use that instead of a crap clean placement? b/c it's not crap, that's why you're pounding it in, remember? if this is the case, why not make it permanant instead of giving us another "softball scar" placement(see Zenyatta Entrada for examples).
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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i understand what your getting at, but i still draw a major and obvious philisophical and practical diffrence between bolts and pins.
a pin placement, with proper execution of technique will become a clean placement. with as i see it, only a minor amount of modification and still greatly preserves, or even enhances, the challange of a climb.
a bolt placement is an immediate and extreme defacement which can never be a clean placement and immediatly removes the challange.
i'm not a militant against bolts type, but i certainly don't back this "bolt it to preserve the knifeblade crack" bs.
if a placement takes a pin, it takes a pin, until such time as it takes a nut. or the pin should remain fixed. if soembody fuks it up and blows the placement apart this is a tragedy that can only be prevented through education and skill.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:33am PT
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Hi Trashman,
You have put your finger on the primary issue that needs to be resolved between the way nailer's think about bolts and the way clean climbers (at least some of them) think about bolts.
Relative to pins, bolts are clean--they can be removed and patched over in most cases.
So, if the goal is minimize the damage to the rock, bolts are better than pins.
But, from a 'adventure' perspective bolts "Kill the impossible." Free climbers traditionally address this by placing them sparingly. Aid climbers don't have that luxury.
However, John Mittendorf, posted the rational, in the early 1980s, for drilling permanent placements when the alternative would not support multiple ascents, a marked departure from the earlier hard style. So, the idea is there. There is just no consensus on what the rule should be applied to aid climbing.
But starting the conversation requires that the two rolls of bolts--clean relative to pins and "killing the impossible" relative to aid, has to be recognized. Otherwise, everyone is talking past each other.
Roger
Edited
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:36am PT
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I think euro and trash are approaching this from different perspectives. On soft sandstone (ie: Fisher Towers) it it does not take much to blow out the placements.
When I climbed the Titan in 1983 or so, it already had huge holes. I think you guys both have valid points but not all placements will eventually be clean (I think that is what Trashman is sayin).
So philosophically, (feck that word definitely sounds armchair like) a bolt may provide more longevity over a placement that would eventually become a worthless scar. Despite the fact that a bolt does lower the climbing level.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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This whole discussion has turned to into a "Bashing" pins and hammers fest rather than a challenge of Integrity to "Purity" and style of Ammon's and Chris's One Day adventure on the Trauma.
Steve's intent seems off base. As I read his original statement, it appears that he is more concerned about Ammon's "Speed Climbing" ego rather the fact that he placed one long "Boo" in what I know is a previous "Boo" scar (as there are several, there were when I ventured onto the "Trauma" in April of '95 after consulting Barry as to what should be done/carried as ammo on this A3 crux section... he advised me to take some thin long "Boo's" and tie them off after "Softly" inserting them into what now must be some obvious constructive thin scarring from the few previous ascenders, so as not to "blow" out this very critical thin seam and "create a haven for the Ravens") on this critical "Crux" section of the Trauma. I'd be willing to bet that Ammon softly placed that damn "Boo" as I did 11 years ago, with the same intent.
Trauma is a stout route and takes much thoughtful effort to accomplish what Ammon and Chris did in the time they did. These two gents are humble yet incredibly talented and only wish to share their adventures. Ego boosting doesn't appear to me to be their motives.
Regardless, it is all semantics.
If we are going to start demeaning and chastising others for minute issues such as placing one long "Boo" in an existing pin scar, as Barry advised me to do 11 years ago, than God himself strike us all down as hypocrites of integrity. I say "Hats off" to Ammon and Chris Mac...they tried and did so with integrity as they could have said they did it "Clean" and not one of us would have known. That is "Character" boys and girls and that is why I stick around this gig after 36 years!
"On the second aid pitch, he nailed one bugabook (big knifeblade). This would be the only hammered placement on the route. I think you can do that one move clean if you equalize the tinyest slider nuts. Or maybe you can do one sketchy free move around it?" From Chris Mac's TR in "SJ".
Steve, I respect your intent but I truly believe that you're a little off base and have used a single "Boo" placement as a shield to hide behind..."Speed Ascents", their validity and manner in which they are done. Isn't that what you are truly after?
Now you want to see destruction, this is what used to be a very Classic RURP/Blade seam "Test Piece" on the "River". I venture to say that Ammon's single "Boo" placement did not result in anything that closely resembles the criminal evidence that you see below! How very sad that ignorant and selfish FNG's must do this in order to boost their egos by claiming "Victory" on this A4 "Classic"! (P-2 "Artist Tears" taken on my solo ascent in May of '01).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:27pm PT
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Hawkeye,
your suggestion that safety considerations justify hammering begs the question whatever happened to "giving the mountain best"?
You COULD back off.
(in any case best not get between me and my third glass of Columbia Crest cabernet with a good steak)
Mimi,
right on! Blaze away, there's plenty of ammo.
Nefarious,
you seem to think that style and ethics are interchangable concepts. Whether or not people climb it "free from then on" DOES NOT AFFECT OTHERS the way alteration of a route DOES.
Clint Cummings,
nice timeline and analysis.
Euro,
C'mon Tim. Bolts vs pins. Clearly you are not yet aware of just how soft soft rock really is.
Roger,
this is news to me. When or where did Deuce advocate my values in the early '80s.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:42pm PT
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RONBO: I was "Surprised" when I ventured on "Trauma" in '95, that you hadn't "Cleaned it Up" so as to avoid future discussion as this one! No, this is not meant to be a spiteful inquiry rather one of simple intrigue due to it's aestheticness and knowing back then that it would become a sought after route.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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Unlike some, I don't usually feel the need to alter other people's work.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:53pm PT
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So, Steve, once a route goes clean it shouls always go clean by every subsequent party? Completeing a climb clean should be the goal of every climber, but are you suggesting that if Ammon, yourself, or anyone else does a route clean that the other 99% of us with less talent should stay off the route unless we can do it clean? Keep your elitist delusions to yourself -- I'll climb a route in whatever style I am able to manage. I'll do it as clean as possible for my skill and talent level. If you see me nailing on the black tower some day and want to shout at me about it, feel free. Your elitist barking is going to shame me off of a route.
Calling out Ammon for something like this is just freakin laughable. Here's an idea -- why don't you rope up with Ammon some time? I'll bet you don't have 1/2 his balls, nor a 10th of his talent. Get up on a route with the guy and then tell me what a bad guy he is; please, come back afterwards and try to tell the rest of us about his poor style. I'm betting you'd come back with your ass in your hand and an apology.
Ed
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
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"Nefarious,
you seem to think that style and ethics are interchangable concepts. Whether or not people climb it "free from then on" DOES NOT AFFECT OTHERS the way alteration of a route DOES. "
No, Ron, I don't think they're interchangable. I'm just following the example I see set her daily.
Free, aid, etc... Thos are styles of climbing. My comment is directed towards the "ethics" "debate" (what a crock), which is pretty much disgusting, cause it's usually an excuse for someone to bitch and start a bitch/whine fest or simply to sound off.
Fact is, that the logic I mention is the only way this can be called an ethic. Supposedly the ethic is that once a cleaner, better-for-the-rock method of ascent is done that is that standard, or ethic to adhere to. Climbing free, MOST DEFINITELY DOES affect others and the rock, much less then even climbing "clean". To say otherwise is a total copout and bullshit excuse as is often used here. Simple fact is that no one here can do the routes on El Cap all free, so no one is going to back the continuing of their own "ethic". Unfortunately, to do otherwise relegates what we're talking about here to a style, and not an ethic.
Regardless, it does nothing but come across as a bunch of elitist crap, with very little validity to most people. They want to hand down the rules to the folks who can't climb as well/hard as them, but don't want the select few who actually *can* climb the routes free (which leaves the least amount of trace/damage to the rock) to come down on them for climbing clean when the route has gone free. Incredibly hypocritical.
The nature of all of this dictates that this "debate" will never be settled.
Edit: Oh, and a bit of what Ed said above. This was pretty much my only reason for posting in the first place. The rest of this thread is the "same ol', same ol'"... I think you need to be able to follow another man's style and lead before you can talk sh#t about it. Kinda like the unspoken rule about not chopping a route on rappel... Talking it because you can't do it aint cool and just leaves you with your thumb in your a*# talking sh#t.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
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Disappointed with both of you.
This is not elitism based on difficulty per se, but rather the ability to climb the route in a manner that does not take away from somebody else's ability to do the same.
Nef,
how does somebody climbing free or not affect others????
You cry elitism but its a smokescreen for "I wanna do what I wanna do".
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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OK,
I need to weigh in here as an Average Joe. I admit that I enjoy reading these little scuffles between those who climb at a much higher level than I, while also feeling these arguments are rather petty in the larger scheme of things. I have never met Ammon or Steve, yet I have judged both of them based on their posts on ST. Sorry Steve, but criticizing someone's actions is judging a person regardless of your intent. As for me, I get the feeling that Ammon is a pretty "straight up" person who is honest about his actions, and is less ego-driven than many on this site. What bothers me about Steve's criticism is that he arrives at his conclusion and then condemns without asking Ammon what actually happened. I have no problem with people coming to their own conclusions and judging others, I just think debates like this would be better served if people would seek to inquire about the facts in a respecful manner prior to arriving at conclusions and firing off attacks. Carry on !!
Cracko
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Cracko,
good on ya, mate.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Ronbo: "Unlike some, I don't usually feel the need to alter other people's work."
Does this statement leave you an "OUT" in case you chose to in the past?
On that note, Ron, have you ventured on "Cosmic Trauma"? And if so, you then would know that "Constructive Scarring" had occured on the move/moves in question and were in place back in '95.
Thus, this whole point is moot as Ammon did not freshly place a "BOO", rather utilized a current scar and made no fresh "Destructive" scar as Chris would have done a respectable and delicate job "Cleaning" the placed pin. Is this not a respectable and authorized avenue? Semantics boys!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
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"boo"????
Existing pin scars are a license to continue hammering?????
Troll or attention whore.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:15pm PT
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Hi Ron,
I am not speaking for John in the issue that Steve raises with Ammon—John speaks for himself. And, I am not in a position to say if John and you would agree, but this is what John posted in a thread on “Big Wall Ehtics.”
He is talking about manufacturing difficulty with a chisel and copper heads versus drilling a hole. I know that most aid climbers would not read this in the same light as me, but the logic of drilling to avoid damage is what struck me. Only a few years before, I think, cutting edge aid climbers would have manufactured placements to maintain the difficulty, whereas John and Walt had a view that included not defiling the rock and thinking in terms of future ascents.
I my opinion, it was one of the best posts on ST, although I am not sure how many folks realized the sea change in attitude that John’s decisions mark. (The emphases are mine.)
“On the other hand, I do remember times when I had the opportunity to enhance the rock to maintain difficulty on the first ascents, but didn't. One was on the Flight of the Albatross, on the pitch above the Canoe. After a series of shallow beaks and lousy heads up a 2" corner, with a bad fall potential onto the Canoe ledge, I came to a section of the corner with no seam at all. It would have been a simple matter to trench a single head placement in the shallow corner to get past the section, and it would have been quite secure. For me, that is. It would have been much more secure, in fact, than any of the other garbage placements that I had been ascending on. Continuing above the placement were another string of body weight placments. But with future ascents, the manufactured placement would have gotten more and more ratty, and the pitch would become more and more dangerous and difficult. So I drilled. Without the drilled placement, I could have probably given the pitch the "coveted" A5 rating. But that's really bullsh#t, don't you think? The placement was not a natural one, so the difficulty would have been completely manufactured.
“Another time I was tempted to use the hammer to chisel to rock was on the Kali Yuga. But with Walt, a stickler with purity, there was no chance. It was on a pitch up high on the route, below the Snoopy, a shallow left facing corner with sporadic natural grooves in the seam. It would have been fun and easy (AND secure, mind you) to line the corner with #1 and #2 heads, but every third one (or so) would have had to be trenched with the hammer and chisel. So instead there is now a rivet every third or so placement. The rivets on the pitch bothered me, but for the longevity of the route, it is a better thing, methnks (higher on the same pitch there is a few rivets in a row where there are natural placments, but on the FA there was a 15 foot high, five inch think vertical detached piece of rock that I couldn't even touch, lest it fall and kill Walt directly below. When he let it fall while seconding the pitch, some natural placments in the corner were revealed).”
Best, Roger
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
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Don't start Ron with your "Get out of my Kingdom" rant.
Oh, I forgot that you may have forgotten:
This is a "blade" and this is a "boo" or "bugabook" as Chris calls them Maybe if you wouldn't have used these on a regular basis where a "blade" or "buga boo" would have been appropriate, you'd know what the "boo" was.
Now, next we will find you ranting on how hand placing a pin into an existing scar is a violation of "Your" Clean Code?
Or, if someone softly taps a #3 Steel Nut with a cleaning tool, into an existing pin scar in order to set it, that also is a violation of "Your" Clean Code. Next thing, your going to chastise someone if they "Bounce Test" a nut in order to set it?
Bottom line, Ammon and Chris are very talented climbers and I know that neither meant to hurt the rock nor anyone's, feelings? They just went and kicked ass and did it with style!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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Thanks Roger.
Interesting, but I have heard conflicting statements from the source regarding judgments of other climbs, so at this point feel forced to reserve my own.
(For example; after the appropriately named Days Of No Future I asked John what would become of such routes with repetitive hammering and his response was, "Who gives a fvck.")
In any case I think that inevitably we will be forced to admit that some compromises will have to be made to preserve our ability to climb. One of them might be a reduction in difficulty or adventure.
But to my mind ANY subsequent ascent of a route suffers from a reduction in adventure if you know already that the route goes.
So fixed anchors could well be such a compromise as well, and, especially in soft rock, pins do not stay fixed and bolts serve better in this function despite the initial (and dare I say philosophical) impact of drilling.
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John O'Connor
Boulder climber
Fort Fun
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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When I climb Cosmic Trauma I am going to nail more than 1 pin. Clean aid climbing equals subjective danger. Aid climbing, along with trad climbing, bouldering, ice climbing came into being for one reason; to TRAIN for the mountains. Understanding the art of nailing is necessary when climbing serious wall routes in hardcore mountain areas (Baffin, Trangos, Patagonia). How many hard alpine big walls have been climbed clean??? Have fun placing your #2 HB in an iced over crack. haha
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
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I feel that this situation brings up some issues that go beyond a single placement and person. That being said, each placement a climber makes is a statement of their style and some climbers actions impact the “community” more than others. Like it or not there are climbers that are “pillars of the community” and the masses will follow by example. That is how climbing advances, both forward and back, over time. Ultimately we should all be concerned with how to achieve the lowest impact to our climbing resource and the “pillars” should (I know this is being very hopeful) help guide the masses to a “better way”. As far as aid climbing goes this would be a “clean/speed” ascent.
While reading through this post I have noticed that a lot of folks are stating that you need to be a cutting edge climber once a route has been done clean. Cosmic Trauma is no more difficult clean than it is nailing. Also there was no special gear required, just a desire to do as little damage a possible. So, there should be no need to carry the hammer. It seems that the rating of most all routes that have been climbed clean have not changes the original rating of the route. Some nailing routes have “evolved” and have been down rated so more wankers (like myself) have a chance at success. I sure do not see much wrong with upping the adventure a bit. I have never seen a route rate C5, most appear to be (high end) C3+, and many have not changed ratings. This is especially true in soft rock. There are plenty of great routes that haven’t been done clean if someone has the need to nail; without doing/nailing the few (relatively) that have been done clean.
A thought on how to handle a route that has had a clean ascent that relies on fixed gear. The first clean ascent party should do their best to document/claim all of the fixed gear that was in place and used; this is directed more to granite versus sandstone (i.e. heads, etc.). Subsequent parties should follow the new standard, but be free to “maintain” the fixed gear. Some fixed gear might be removed/cleaned/fallout and have a clean placement instead of the fixed gear, all the better. This would help slow the evolution of the route and stabilize it for future generations. This, in a loose way, is how free climbs are maintained.
Getting the latest beta is key to maintaining a clean route. This is a huge challenge. I admire the party that bailed off of Cosmic Trauma after being informed that is had been done clean. I have a hard time understanding why a team who is highly skilled would go up on a route (knowing it had been done clean and with a lowly C3 rating) with a hammer and pins. It is the overriding thought process and example that is worrisome; not the actual number of hammer blows.
Peace
John Fowler
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
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"So fixed anchors could well be such a compromise as well, and, especially in soft rock, pins do not stay fixed and bolts serve better in this function despite the initial (and dare I say philosophical) impact of drilling."
WHAT?????
If that is the case Ron, then why did you drill and place BA's into the all the holes (DA's) rather than 1/2" 5 piece RAWLS that were more than available when you "DRILLED" all them DA's?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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John,
excellent post.
To the rest. I was in error when I suggested UB was a troll or attention whore.
He is obviously both.
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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Lets see a topo for Turning Point?!!
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
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I have a friend in common with Ammon and it has been my pleasure to talk with him on a few occasions. Anybody that knows him or has even just met him knows he is humble and is anything but egotistical. Although I don't agree with the way Ammons ethics, ego, and honesty have been brought into question, I do agree that willingly, or not when your as good and as well known as Ammon your actions speek louder to the whole community and may somtimes require some explanation.
I've only been climbing for 11 years so giving my opinion on a forum full of big names like this is probably a waste of my time, especially when it's clear that the opinion of a "noobe" doesn't matter to some of you old timer hardmen that think your climbing achievements define you as a human. I have never pounded a pin other than an angle in a drilled hole for an anchor(that got your attention Ron)and I need to go back and fix it. I have several FA's around Southern Utah all on sandstone. My favorite and most proud is III 5.8x C3. It's short but damn its fun and airy. My hardest onsight FA is 5.12. I feel like an idiot writing this and I only do so that everyone can decide for them selves weather or not my opinion holds any weight.
OK, my opinion,
I think first of all, all care should be taken to minimize impact on the rock, physically and visually by both the FAist and repeaters.
I think we should all climb as clean as possible weather or not the route is still being nailed by some.
I don't think that the acceptable style should be set by the best or craziest among us, there has to be room for the average climber like my self to learn and grow. After all, we've all read posts on this site were climbers brag about how much beer they consume while climbing. To say that those of us with other goals in life, or children at home that need us, can't climb a route because some crazy idiot that doesn't feel he/she has anything to live for, downs a couple Old E's and pulls off some low percentage moves where failure means serious injury or death is rediculous. If that is your goal as clean climbing advocates you will fail. You will fail to achieve the good you could because of your inability to compromise and remember the fact that climbing take experience, experience that is usually gained on the sharp end,the same way you learned. The average climber will not stop doing what they love with such rediculous constraints.
I think subsequent ascents on FAs should be done in no less than the style it was put up in, always trying to be as clean as possible.
Steve
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2006 - 03:13pm PT
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JIMB,
Thanks for echoing the inescapable logic and consequences behind my clean aid post. As I have said earlier, this discussion is about a mindset to which Ammon seems to ascribe, not a condemnation of the man himself. It isn't really even about speedclimbing, per se. It is about haste and expedience and their relationship to impact. Mimi queried Ammon long ago as to whether he had chosen to pound in the name of speed and he chose not to clarify his position and defend his style. CT simply provided an illuminating test case. To the naysayers still left out there defending Ammon and braying over the right to be destructive, step back and consider what it is that you are defending beyond just getting your ass up without soiling your armor. You are championing pin scars. Get the picture? If you don't, please describe what it is about Serenity Crack in its current state that you so dearly cherish. Despite the irony in its name, this completely bombed out route was emblematic of the need to stop being destructive during the clean climbing push three decades ago, dispelling any notion that nailing was sustainable or desirable in its lasting consequences.
If you choose to free climb SC good for you. If you choose to aid climb the route without using a hammer also good for you. If you choose to use destructive force to do this route free or aid sorry but you suck because you are incrementally adding to the BIG UGLY.
People like myself that push the limits of possibility free climbing, aid climbing, clean climbing, free soloing and any other aspect of the greater game called alpinism and do so without diminishing the experience of those that follow deserve everyones respect. To leave the routes as you found them or better should be the legacy of inspired climbing. To climb gripped by fear or the need for security erodes clarity of purpose and judgement leading to thoroughly uninspired climbing and poor style. Inspired climbing serves as a means to access the potential in ALL OF US to rise up and do better by reaching inside and summoning what is required to meet a challenge well. Inspired climbing, by honoring self actualization, does not seek to close doors or exclude anyone as long as your best effort is the result and that you have properly prepared yourself. If you have to climb outside of your relevant experience and committment to gratify your ego, that is usually where problems arise and regretable events take place while lost in the heat of the moment. Food for thought.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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John I agree with your statement as to identifying a route as going "Clean" and should be done as such in the future. But, as you well know, in many cases that isn't always a reality as evidenced on the route below where for over 10 years, folks continue to pound in #3 angles where obvious cam or HB's would have gone. And it was advertised and has been a "Clean" route for that period of time. Yet, folks still get on it and pound in angles.
What is the answer? Well, the Arches NP Superindendent has one. Maybe the Zion NP SI will be next and so on. It is the nature of the beast as this discipline we call "Aid" climbing has grown from a handful of "Whacked out Crazy's" to being a "KOOL GIG" where the hammer and piton are the shet that makes one a valid "Wall Rat"!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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You know Ron, for 35 years I just accepted that there were two sets of rules—one for free climbers and one for aid climbers—when it came to pins. (Partly this is becuase I have no experiece with cams. Yeah, yeah, chuckle away. I am comfortable in my own skin.)
Free climbers did the best they could with sometimes crummy 'clean' protection and ran it out to justify placing a bolt. Aid climbers didn't have the luxury of spacing out bolts to justify placing them—they had to get up the rock. As a climber, I couldn't think of any way to justify banning pins on aid routes: I figured that all routes would just get very easy and very safe or they would be shut down.
But recently, I reached, for me, the startling conclusion that all climbing is just about the rules that we set for ourselves--we don't call the cables on Half Dome climbing and climbers don't 'advance' mountaineering by developing helicopters that can get to the top Everest. Our climbing only has meaning because of the rules that we make for our selves to make sure it is hard enough to be ‘climbing.’
So I asked myself what would be the state of aid climbing if pins had never been allowed in the first place. I decided it wouldn't be endless bolt ladders, as many folks assume. Some routes would be like the El Cap routes are now, but probably not free yet. Hard climbs would more likely be very run out on nuts and cams, hooking, and desperate free climbing with the minimal of bolts to protect the climbing and to get past sections that "were worth it."
Sound familiar?
(BTW, there would still be rock damage just not pin scarring.)
I have been trying out some of these heresies on ST, with full knowledge that I am safely far away from any mortal danger and have no standing as an aid climber. However, the comments from older climbers, relatively speaking, with loads of relavant experience are interesting—-more like minded folks and 'clean' agenda progress than I would have thought.
Best, Roger
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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No Ron, just calling you on your Bullshet!
You haven't done CT have you? Too bold for ya, your drill & rack of 200 angles?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:35pm PT
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Roger,
no sweat. Great to have you on board the SS Heretic. As other ships founder we should pick up some more crew members...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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Ad naseum arguments and discussions about a single placement, when elsewhere in our National Parks, miles of wilderness are getting paved with parking lots.
ah, well.
here's some more 2 cents, for whatever it is worth.
First off, Ammon is probably the finest big waller of the era, without a doubt. His accomplishments are pushing the sport into another league. I sure hope he puts his energy into the expeditionary realm sometime, I'm sure we'll see the boundaries really pushed.
Ammon was definitely sensitive to the fact that he placed a pin on a route that had gone clean, why else would he write about it? Steve's prods to Ammon seem to me to be exactly because Ammon is such an icon--if an icon can be critisized, the rest of us nignogs will surely think twice about pounding a pin where others didn't. People like Steve, yielding no ground on the issue of clean climbing, are a catalyst of positive change.
Then again, there's lots we don't know. The argument has been made that routes that once went clean may not always go clean in the future. Especially in Zion with its regions of choss rock. Maybe the placement was blown out? Maybe Ammon's second constructively cleaned the pin so now it will go clean for longer than otherwise? Who knows?
Perhaps someday, clean aid routes will become more like free climbs were back in the 80's: if you couldn't do it free, you retreated, rather than hangdog up the thing. In aid, if people commited to clean routes without even bringing a hammer, the ethic of noble retreating (if not up to the task at hand) would become the natural norm.
Steve's climb of the Muir without even taking a hammer was a mindblowing visionary event for the time (and still is).
(edited)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:37pm PT
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I like that last paragraph John.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:41pm PT
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Because of the tone of the first post, I'm having a hard time buying that the original poster's motivation is truth / information and not animosity, frustration, and possibly jealousy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:47pm PT
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SS,
regardless.
The issue of resource prservation technique IS worth discussing.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:52pm PT
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don't have much to add to this dialectic, folks -- i think it's been hashed over pretty good. but i'd like to give a big bvb shout-out to all my homies who done posted to this thread!
oh, plus these:
The Abilene Paradox:
a social phenomenon wherein groups agree to pursue goals with which the individual members do not agree.
Groupthink:
a mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action.
postcount+++
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:07pm PT
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How about the Anal Dichotomy;
that there are two kinds of people in the world, my kind of people and azzholes.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:19pm PT
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There are THREE kinds of people on this planet - those who can count, and those who can't!
:)
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:27pm PT
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Horseplay VI 5.9 A3 (FA: Grossman/Harrington, 1984)
3 rurps
2 KB
25 LA
4 - 1/2"
6 ea. 5/8" to 1 1/4"
1 ea. 1 1/2" to 2 1/2"
2 ea. cams
10 heads
Jolly Roger VI 5.10 A5 (FA: Cole/Grossman, 1979)
(McNeely & Co. 10th? ascent)
10 rurps
20 KB
20 LA
3 ea. 1/2" and 5/8"
1 ea. 2" to 4"
6 ea. Leeper
many small wires
4 ea. cams
75 heads
hooks, numerous
The Real Nose VI 5.10 A4 (FA: Cole/Grossman, 1984)
3 beaks
15 rurps
25 KB
20 LA
4 ea. 1/2" and 5/8"
2 - 3/4"
3 ea. cams
hooks, all
100 heads
Turning Point ? (FA: Grossman, 1984)
Eyes only
Central 'nizer ? (FA: Grossman/Ladin, 1988)
Super-ultra-secret
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 05:48pm PT
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Well I guess we all know which of the three kinds of people Yo is. lol
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nvrws
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 07:18pm PT
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We need WB to chime in here. I think it would sound something like this, (paraphrased) I don't give a sh#t what people do to El Cap(insert any stone), they can blow it up if they want.
Mr. Grossman, you are not talking about ethics, you are talking about style. The two are very different. Did you stop to consider that maybe just maybe something had changed on P-7, or does the route only change by the few lower orders that would dare place a pin where none had been before. How high is that horse you rode in on?
I must admit, i do agree with you on issues of speed climbing and style. Seems that the competitive drive could cause some serious errors in judgement in regards to style. Perhaps Hans Florine could develop a way of crediting style on speed ascents. Something like 10 second time add ons for every non first ascent bolt clipped or pin used.. just a thought.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
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looks scary to me...and committing too.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
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Not many of us are as spiritually advanced as Werner. Our fragile eggshell minds require certain earthly beliefs to help maintain sanity in this current life on this wonderful planet.
Edit: I kept thinking that this wasn't necessary, but alas, maybe it'll help. They're close but not quite. Merrium-Webster OnLine.
Ethics - a set of moral principles, the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group (professional ethics), a guiding philosophy, a consciousness of moral importance (forge a conservation ethic).
Style - a distinctive manner or custom of behaving or conducting oneself, a particular manner or technique by which something is done, created, or performed (a unique style of horseback riding, the classical style of dance).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:47pm PT
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I heard Webster was a rap bolter.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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Dictionaries are aid.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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dab. i wrote my shite from memory. evergreen state college liberal arts degrees 4lyfe, bisshes.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 09:56pm PT
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Hey you people quit fuking around and figure this sh#t out, like 183 posts and WTF, guys on EL Cap straight-a-way are waiting.
Hahahaha
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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Rimsolder, how bout using that Princeton schooling to add something of substance to this debate before Werner goes postal.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Werner can always take his 200 watt megaphone down to the meadow and tell them to toss their mallets and grow some nuts or he'll lower Lober with a taser.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
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mimi,
while i have given you a hard time i do agree that these are ethics, not style issues.
pounding pins on clean routes damages the rock. there is more significance to that than pulling on a bolt to get through a hard move.
but to stop cold turkey? is there not some sort of methadone treatment for this fix...and dont be tellin me to grow a set of balls. thats my line usually...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:14pm PT
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mimi, werner does not subscribe to the use of currency, and therefore he does not use stamps.
besides...steve made his point, and he made it well. he and i see eye-to-eye on the issue; others have their own views and will not be budged.
the only route i've done on el cap was the west face; we climbed it clean, free, and in a day. i don't own a hammer...except for the signed "collector's item" A5 hammer that a friend gave me. never been used.
i've never been interested in anything except clean, free climbing. this has undoubtably limited the range of experiences i've lived through in climbing, but on the other hand i've been doing what i enjoy. as i age, the fire of my passage continues to burn away the extraneous...i'm down to bouldering now, pure and simple, just bouldering, and have been in that state for over a decade now. the crucial passage in bernard amy's "the greatest climber in the world" involves a boulder problem, and provide my current blueprint for climbing.
for those who chose to do walls, i beleive style and ethics should be the primary consideration. but that's just me. and i'm obviously totally unqualified to say much more than that.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:23pm PT
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ragmeat,
go home
i am pretty sure that squeeling i here is a warning sign from your mama
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:34pm PT
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It would seem the discussion really has forked a few times into several intertwined topics:
Ammon [the unwitting icon] and his lone perilous pin
Leaving the ground with a hammer on a route that's gone clean
Less skilled parties still hammering on a route that's gone clean
Speedclimbing - imperative vs. impact (or when ethics and style collide)
Ethics-based retreats - walking the talk (yes, even today they exist in both free and aid climbing)
Any of the above could almost be an actual climbing-related thread of it's own. And, again, I think Steve did himself a real disservice with his tone and verbage in his first post relative to engaging Ammon and others on the substance of his concerns and I'm glad to see that toned down. Like Duecey said - Ammon is the current point of the spear and I don't think you could find a better aid protagonist than him. His virtual and real spew, spray, commercialization, and general funk index isn't even on the radar compared to some of today's free climbing icons.
Trying to tackle the whole enchilada in one thread is a bit difficult, particularly given the two individuals involved. I personally completely ascribe to Steve's agenda and am also totally supportive of Ammon's climbing. We're all human here - we all both deliberately and mindlessly bauble once in awhile, we can all stand to look in the mirror now and then and check out what's currently staring back, and it's good for all of us to check in and touch base periodically (as Chris and Ammon did).
As an aside, I climb at a fairly retro trad crag where the ethic is still gear > pins > bolts as an absolute last resort. The last two [free] FA's I did there used pins (only) for several points of fixed pro over six pitches. Both routes were cleaned (no small job) and protected on lead. On our rock (medium and long) LA's and Bugs still have a venerated place as fixed pro and in a recent two year maintenance sweep of the crag it was clear that, on a percentage basis, the pins far outlasted almost all the bolts placed 1960's - 1990's. Beyond that they are easy to check and reset if necessary, though well-placed pins weld and don't loosen in our basalt.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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i agree with what you write -- mostly. however, i've met and hung with steve on many occasions going back to tucson in '85 and to suggest he was being inflammatory or an attack dog in his initial post is just way off base. he was trying to provoke a dialectic on a truly important issue that the climbing world would prefer to ignore. personally, he is as laid back as anyone gets. it's like someone pointed out about 1,000 posts upstream: you cannot evaluate people based on internet posts. get a f*#king clue, gomer.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:00pm PT
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As Steve himself would and did say, I was simply commenting on [the outcome of] his actions (postings) - not judging the man himself. I have nothing but respect for Steve and am fully on board with his clean agenda and its importance to the future of climbing. But, in person or on the internet, words are what they are and I'm not remotely alone in believing he could have found a better way to "provoke a dialectic" with Ammon and to raise a flag on the issue.
[Edit: I personally appreciate and value folks who's online and in-person personnas are in-sync (when I actually run across them) and work to keep mine that way.]
P.S. TIG, leash and paper your pup, he's pissing on the carpet again...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:16pm PT
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fair enough. i keep forgetting there is a gaping cultural divide beteen taco and my home port, b.com, where verbal rough-and-tumble with your best of freinds is the name of the game....
and it goes a little something like this: http://www.boldering.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19150&hl=hate
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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bvb for those of us that dont know steve, he did call ammon out. but the point is what he is saying is right. not only that, he is probably some kind of smart mofo for lurking and hitting an opportune moment.
aside from steve vs ammon. the discussion was needed.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:23pm PT
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yes, exactly.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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Why couldn't Steve broach the topic differently? It's smarter to kick someone when they're up, but you're the one who's going to fall harder because that kind of bitterness is going to bring you down.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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Post #200 and what have we decided?
It would be good if we climbed clean and this thread was poorly titled.
We are soooo phuking brilliant.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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red bvb's link, hahaha, perhaps the st could use some of that sh&&. hahaha
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:23am PT
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that's just how we roll, g.
fyi, i boulder with most of those guys all the time. we try to set the bar as low as possible. i do beleive we are unsurpassed as a climbing website for being the most tasteless and disrespectful rat's nest of cretins on the planet.
jesus wept.
we now return you to our regularly schedule program, but i do beleive this one has been beat to death. it would be wonderful to see the many sub-topics, as well as the main issue raised by SG, continue to be discussed. as climbing evolves into an ever-higher lifeform, the points raised by all will hopefully move center stage.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:02am PT
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Steve, your statement “People like myself that push the limits of possibility [of] aid climbing … and do so without diminishing the experience of those that follow deserve everyones respect. … To climb gripped by fear or the need for security erodes clarity of purpose and judgement leading to thoroughly uninspired climbing and poor style. Inspired climbing serves as a means to access the potential in ALL OF US to rise up and do better by reaching inside and summoning what is required to meet a challenge well …[etc]” is some really nice rhetoric, but does it apply to you? The only climb I’ve done of yours was the SA of Horse Play in which the first hole was a bolt about 35 feet off of Truck Stop at the crux of the route. I never touched your bolt as I blew past with an unmodified #2 head in a natural pocket. The only rationale I could see for the bolt was to protect against a nasty fall onto a ledge some 25 feet down. I can’t judge your climbing by one incident. Hopefully it was an anomaly to a long career. But it seems a little wild for you to be the one to call into question Ammon’s ego, motives, ability, or ethics over a single placement which you find objectionable.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:11am PT
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MSmith,
Maybe Susan lead that pitch and not Steve?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:26am PT
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MSmith,
I'm disappointed in you. Can't we get beyond nitpicking and address the basic issue?
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:50am PT
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Dixiegal
your post absolutely nailed the issue. I was searching for the right words, but would never have been as astute as you. As for you Steve, what in the world is your problem? You have done many amazing things in your life, both climbing and in your work. Why taint it all being so unpleasant? You built me the finest home climbing gym in the world (well, the finest I'm aware of) and yet you have never had the chance to see it or climb there because you got wierd with me too. Jeez, man, you put up the first ascent of Jolly Rogers, and I'm pretty sure soloed another El Cap FA. That's so awesome, but who gives a crap about someone who treats others so poorly? My recommendation is to treat those around you with respect, and they will most certainly respect you. Trashing Ammon (who I do not know) like that was not called for.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:52am PT
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Has Ronbo become RONdney King? "Can't we all just get along?"
Oh come on, Ron. You know I'm just razzin' ya and think you're OK. =)
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:32am PT
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“Maybe Susan lead that pitch and not Steve?”
That’s possible. If so, I’ll retract my attack and apologize. Since it was the first pitch and Steve’s name is listed first as FA I assumed it was his lead. But you know what happens when you ASSuME…
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:32am PT
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“Can't we get beyond nitpicking and address the basic issue?”
Fair enough in that whatever SG has or hasn’t done on his routes is irrelevant to how we evaluate Ammon. Not sure I can go along with describing my comment as “nitpicking.” It would seem that when someone launches an attack thread over one questionable placement and then applauds himself as “pushing the limits of aid climbing” so as to “deserve everyone’s respect” (in contrast to that dirty dog who made a sullied placement), pointing out the fact that the attacker has done far worse than the attacked is a little more substantive than “nitpicking.” But maybe when it comes to SG I have too much baggage of my own.
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poop_tube
Big Wall climber
33° 45' N 117° 52' W
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:44am PT
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Wuddup Hummerchine
Hey Clint Cummings, I met you at the needles. I was the dude grunting on fancy free
cheers!
Kia
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:59am PT
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Way to be zen Ammon. I didn't like the tone in the initial posting. Well now most has been said that I wanted to say, and said better. I'll add this though...against my better judgement.
After some wild clean pitches on the admittedly limited walls I've done, I think that my duty now is to remind myself, force myself, to limit fun spicy clean-aid tinkering so as to save time in my leading. Yes that's true I am resolved to nail MORE. (I'm gonna get really slammed; why am I opening myself up for this?). Ok, so, I really dig clean problemsolving. I've even finally stood on the smallest zero cam (purple) instead of a knifeblade. I've put in lots of HB 0s, maybe dozen green zero cams in LA scars, ball nuts etc, etc., and sometimes, not always, but sometimes what it brought besides a little thrill at my cleverness, and adrenaline, and a little less rock damage in that spot, was for my poor partners to sit for maybe hours longer and be on a route longer overall. And too, that I never learned to nail on the easier nailing routes, so now on trickier routes where it might really matter my nailing skills pretty much suck. Yes, there are worthy ideals of cleaner climbing to strive towards as a community. But everything has a result or price for the individual. The initial posting asked about the
price of a certain style. If Ammon took three minutes more to make a clean placement or I took three hours more to lead a pitch clean is the ethic the same even though the price is different? Does the climber's style and ability affect the ethic? What about other criteria?
Should I not climb a route if I can't climb it fast enough clean but can climb it clean? What if I am too short to reach a tricky clean placement ? Should the ethic be different for someone 5'2" versus 6'2"? I've had partners tell my sorry ass just nail to avoid the fifteen or more minutes of diddling trying to scrape a little dirt out behind a crystal to place a little HB. Maybe if Ammon spent more minutes there he would have found the RP. Or maybe not. Should I hope that "just 5 minutes more" will yield the elusive clean placement, or should I head or nail and get on with it? I am slow enough as it is. And for those who don't even LIKE thin clean stuff, should they never climb another barely clean aid route till they learn to like dicey clean aid?
So, speaking of speed, a motercycle just went by at 1 am in front of the library in a 35 zone , going over LA highway speed, like, full throttle scaryfkng fast, and ten seconds behind him sure enough the siren. Here comes da man, the rider was totally going for the elude pursuit. I can hear him turn and accelerate again, and now I hear another siren joining in. The one cop alone would never catch him. I am imagining the adrenaline
this guy must be juicing. Oh now here comes a fkng helicopter. Oh no there's two! He may be done in!
Technology has changed the limits of what is possible, but having the latest goods is expensive. Um, how about money as a decision motivator, for example, "pitons are cheaper than hybrid aliens and zero cams" Should a poor person who only can afford pitons and a basic set of free rack, no "specialty gear" have to "wait to climb the route" till s/he gets better gear, say, doubles at least of hybrids, micronuts, ball nuts, and cam hooks? (A steep use fee would help attract wealthier climbers with better clean gear, how bout that). What about this that and the other thing? I don't know for sure. Do you? Of course minimize impact whenever "possible." So Ammon should only do clean ascents? What about fixed gear? Should you leave nailed gear to damage the rock less, as a penalty for being talented? (Pease do maybe I can booty it, ...oh sorry).
Speed has always been a value in the mountains. Is a speed challenge a bogus goal? Is clean climbing the only valid goal? What about when it conflicts with other goals? Is there a moral imperative and how absolute is it? Where draw the lines? What to do when rationales for things differ and contradict? I can think of reasons I believe that things are questionable that another doesn't. Is there ethics without "belief," ie, objective ethics? Where does style become judgeable or judged against, doesn't it depend on the decision criteria where style becomes ethics?
And just for fun what happens if we zoom out (or in) the focus? What is the enverinmental impact of the manufacture of pitons versus hybrid aliens? Does it matter? This is, after all, about preserving just the route -- not the planet -- for the next climbers. So then the above-mentioned hauling damage is irrelevent, it's not hurting the route for future climbers. Have you seen the white scrape up the Prow? So what? A massive population reduction would help on a number of fronts. Ugh.
Sheesh, see why I lurk mostly and shouldn't post up? I don't even know what this says when I reread it. Oh well. I promise
from now on to be a good girl with my new laptop, really. If I sound like a long winded as#@&%e, I am sorry, it's late, and I guess I am one.
I think they got the guy. I think I hear the helicopter hovering in one spot for at least 10 minutes now, but it's really far away so I can't tell if that's the helicopter or another city noise. I'd bet that if they caught him, it's in the news, cause it makes the cops look good and they'll call the papers themselves with it, but if they didn't catch him, it's not, cause that makes the cops look bad.
I guess I'm really just saying damn can you be a little polite.
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:42am PT
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For the folks that need to nail something there are still far more nailing routes at moderate grades than the handfull of clean routes. Why not have these clean route stand; similar to respecting an FA? It appears to just be selfish pride that drives someone to not climb a route in the least destuctive manner. Again, most clean routes are NOT super dangerous or hard (most less than C3+ and by todays standards that is moderate). In a sense the first clean ascent of a route is like an FA (IMO). The clean ascent also marks the slowing in the evolution of the route. This is good for the future. And yes, wait or back off if you are not prepared to meet the requirements/demands of the route. You can learn a lot by backing off, both technically and mentally. If we ALL work and strive for the ideal we can achieve a better climbing environment for everyone.
John Fowler
P.S.
The blade placement on CT was not used during the clean ascent. The only fixed gear was a bolt ladder and the belays.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:08am PT
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“For the folks that need to nail something there are still far more nailing routes at moderate grades than the handfull of clean routes. Why not have these clean route stand; similar to respecting an FA? It appears to just be selfish pride that drives someone to not climb a route in the least destuctive manner.”
John, you've zeroed in on the issue. SG’s intitial post to this thread is basically as assertion that once someone does a clean ascent, it’s a new route totally owned by them and their ethic. That’s an assertion I have a hard time accepting. (To extend the questions posed by cybele) imagine if the Nose was a speed climbers paradise, all fast and clean except for one pin. Then someone comes along and with an hour's work squeaks past the pin with a placement formed by 6 precisely placed opposing hooks. Now what? Everyone off the route who doesn’t do the opposing hook variation? And what if the new FAionist doesn’t feel inclined to make it known how he pulled it off, just that he did pull it off? Do we just decide to not do the Nose because there are so many other routes to do? I think that criticizing Ammon’s ascent of CT is unreasonable.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:14am PT
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"Its a new route owned by,...."
Huh?
This isn't about "ownership", its about what constitutes ethical behavior.
Does just wanting to do something because others have done it and you want to also justify doing whatever you want?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:42am PT
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"Does just wanting to do something because others have done it and you want to also justify doing whatever you want?"
Certainly not. But this is not a binary issue, which is the impression I've taken from SG and some of the other posts. Between "doing whatever you want" and my example of the opposing hooks are a lot of shades of gray. Each ascent has to be evaluated on its own facts. I don't see Ammon's ascent as unreasonable or a violation of climbing community ethics in general.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:54am PT
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"I've had partners tell my sorry ass just nail to avoid the fifteen or more minutes of diddling trying to scrape a little dirt out behind a crystal to place a little HB." -- cybele
So, I'm not the only one, cyb? =) Hey, it was getting late and all I could think about was that can of green beans and the bottle of Hi-C I had down below. I don't think I said anything about your ass being sorry though. Incidentally, how's my chalk bag? heh!
Mark -- So, you are you saying each climb/ascent isn't the same?!?! And we're not all the exact same body type and we all think differently?! Say it isn't so!!!
Cheers!
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:02pm PT
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I never said anything about "ownership" and for the record I do not believe anyone "owns" route/rock/etc. It is about moving forward with a less damaging style. We could always contrive examples that don't fit or are unrealistic. A clear thought process will lead to better end results. Starting off thinking clean will leave the hammer on the ground (or in the bag). This would be a great start. Also, if gear lists reflected a clean ascents rack versus the old nailing rack.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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SG: "It isn't really even about speedclimbing, per se. It is about haste and expedience and their relationship to impact."
It probably would have been more productive to start this thread with that type of statment.
Back to the placement in question for us punters who will never get on the route but are interested in the generalization of this example to other climbs; is the blind nut placement the same spot where Ammon nailed (or did he nail lower)? If other parties had nailed there before Ammon and ruined the clean placement does Ammon deserve blame for something out of his control? If it was the same spot, it sounds like it had changed from a blind nut placment, to something that might possibly go with equalized slider nuts as per CMac's report, so it most likely was not in the same condition as on the first clean ascent. He did say it may possibly go with equalized slider nuts, though so how much effort should have been given to that? If he spent an hour and couldn't get anything to stick, should they have bailed or nailed?
IMO if this clean crux move was blown out by nailing, that IS an ethical blunder. But it seems we don't have enough information to judge Ammon for that, doing so prematurely was wrong.
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:13pm PT
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people should nail on clean routes more often. it livens up the internet forums.
edit: whoa, i posted this and magically the forum went back to unpaginated format.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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" How about that, the park service should just BAN PITONS. You do not own the land. Would that help you get it in check? " -
Sure, but only if they ban all bolts too ( including the removal of all existing bolts ). I'll just go sailing instead then...........
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:15pm PT
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I'm still not hearing a response to Mark's question about the chicken bolt on Horse Play.
It doesn't get it done to say that perhaps SG didn't lead the pitch. Even if not, he was sitting there on Truck Stop, about 35 feet below, watching that bolt go in. Complicity at the very least.
And this point does matter to the major theme of this thread. Not only does it appear that the pot is calling the kettle black, but this point also denotes the very sliding scale of evaluation that we all know exists and that SG ignores as he imagines some absolutist ethical model applying to the "clean" vs. "hammered" distinction (among many other "ethical" distinctions). Finally, SG singles out one placement in Ammon's ascent, while we single out one placement in the Horse Play FA. Pick your poison.
Finally, we did the SA of Horse Play just about three weeks after the FA, so I'm not buying that some mythical party got up there before us and placed the chicken bolt. BTW, we removed the bolt and filled the hole with epoxy and dirt, making it invisible and thereby making the pitch actually as "hard" as it was rated. That is the only bolt we have ever removed from a climb. We much prefer to drill holes than erase them! But in this one act, you can call it our small effort to atone for our many acts of drilling... oh, and also to ensure that SG's karma as a purist would return to its ongoing pristine state.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
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John, I have no problem with anything you said in your last post. I think that in the case of CT someone came up with an ingenious solution to a single placement, a solution which was not widely known at the time of Ammon’s ascent. Ammon acted reasonably with the info available to him at the time. That’s why the attack on him seems really unreasonable. But even if Ammon had been aware of the solution, should the route now be now closed to him and all others who don’t do that one placement clean? I would discourage someone to go ahead with that one pin anyway, but neither would I condemn.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:27pm PT
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Madbolter1
It is ironic indeed that I've been charged with "nitpicking", while this whole thread is about one pin.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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I'm getting REAL tired of pointing this out but, despite the thread title and opening, this is not about single placements but the greater issue of preserving routes once they have been climbed clean.
Its not a hijacking merely a broader view.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
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" That's why I do allow for some use of nailing, but there has to be a plan for route preservation or else the action becomes selfish and unethical.
Ethics is a term that speaks to the way our actions affect others"-
Piton Ron, I'm thinking that by this logic that Harding's bolt ladders and dowel pitches on WEML are more ethically pure than Porter's pitches on the Shield, is that what you're saying? That Porter was selfish and Harding was thinking of all mankind? Actually, that would mean Wings Of Steel is an ethically better route preservation wise than the Nose was.
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
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Thanks Ron
He knew that the route went clean and left the ground armed to hammer. There clean move does not require any real trickery, just the mental commitment to do it clean. The move is not even very dangerous. As Ron points out, it is not a discussion about a single placement. It is a coversation of how we should protect our resources for the future and our commitment to that ideal.
John Fowler
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
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uh oh.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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In a sense, Ben, Porter WAS more selfish, but we both know that this is an unfair statement given the historical context.
Still we DO deal with the legacy of a safety system that mandated use of a hammer, and that tends to cloud the issues.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 14, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
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I heard Ammon left a poo streak fifty yards long down Cosmic Trauma. That's what you call LAME.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
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Oh man, the images on this post are the best ever. Made my day.
Thanks a load Ouch! Hawkeye, perfect.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
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the Fet'
You have all the information at your disposal here. John Fowler lead the pitch in question without pounding and has exhaustively detailed the options available at the C3 section. The lack of ambiguity is what makes this situation a perfect testcase as I said on an earlier post. I may have been mistaken that the route has been done clean by more than the Fowler party. He is understated but very clear in his posts. The lack of a repeat doesn't really change its status as a known clean climb. Excuses and rationalization pale in the light of direct experience and fact. Not about Mr. Mcneely, is this dialog. I don't know how else to put it. Chew on the meat of the arguements presented thoroughly and spit or swallow please.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
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In the context of the broader discussion, it would seem once a route has gone clean the first bold ethical decision happens on the ground while racking up: hammer or no hammer? At that point bringing a hammer can only be rationalized one of three ways - safety (ass saved), expediency (time saved), or imperative (top saved). Once a hammer is on the route it's more about equivocation and battling temptation.
As for relavancy to the specifics of of Chris and Ammon's ascent, it sounds like they were pretty casual about the whole affair and weren't doing a lot of "deep thinking", ethically or otherwise, but just looking forward to climbing and getting after something. It's a bit hard for me to believe folks would really question their motives, general ethics, abilities, or their desire to preserve rock and routes. So what I think I'm hearing here more than anything else is that, given their icon status, some folks would like them to stop for a moment and better consider the clean ethics / status of a given route before launching. That the rock is due at least that. There is no doubt we could all stand to better consider our impact along with our fun. If that's the case, then I'd say the point has definitely been made.
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Maybe do more than just consider, act on the ideal. I know that I do not go up and do a route clean by accident or luck.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 02:46pm PT
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John,
I'd say that's for each of us to decide, though a basic and shared context for such decisions is what allows us and others to understand just how bold, clean, and / or innovative any given route or ascent was.
Kudos to you for a clean CT job...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
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MSmith,
The lead was mine but the bolt is not. The climbing on those pitches is pretty tame and I don't recall any bolts placed other than at the belay stations. I have no problem looking at bad falls and have been doing so for decades. The odds are that I placed a nut in that natural pocket and that the next party didn't care to follow suit. Did you try a nut before bashing a head in there?
Yours was likely not the second ascent as you claim. Considering the absolutely disfunctional relationship that you and Dick had with the Valley climbing community, I would question that assumption before adding a chickenbolt to my accomplishments. I truely am a piss stained coward, everybody knows that. Right.
You and Dick seem to have a peculiar fascination with this area of the wall as bolting accross to Truckstop and heading up more virgin territory independently during your WOS tribulations would have made much more sense than bolting left to reach the soggy Aquarian. Might this be the "baggage" to which you refer?
Anyway, while you are here some details please. Clay Wadman's El Cap map shows a variation to Horseplay. Is this your doing? I have even heard rumor that you claim Horseplay as your own which is laughable. I believe it was Dick that soloed the Horsechute before Sue Harrington and I did Horseplay. Is that accurate information? When you repeated Horseplay and "blew by" my supposed indiscretion, were you alone or with a partner? How many days were required for each ascent. Lastly, what vile combination of Bivi foods do you consume to induce the tremendous flatulence necessary to boost yourself past tricky aid moves by inducing the blow by. Is this like automotive cylinder blow by or some otherwise secret and mysterious mechanism? Inquiring minds would like to know. Please elaborate.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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Steve... you are a FUNNY guy! Of course, you shouldn't believe any rumors you have heard about we mad bolters. I haven't heard of one yet that was true. Of course, what does the truth matter? It's your PERCEPTION that matters. Right?
Bit of a defensive tone there in your last post. Careful with that. I've heard it can get you in trouble.
Also, your selective memory is admirable. I'm determined to emulate it for the future. Makes life much easier. And easier to account for.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Healy,
that it is "for each of us to decide" is actually at the core of the problem as, while protecting the life of the mallethead may be used as the excuse, we ALL have to live (OR DIE) with the results OF that decision.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:48pm PT
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This thread is destroying the images in my head of some of my great climbing heros! Make it stop!!!
In case it's not already clear, all this shitslinging is making *everyone* involved smell like, well....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 03:57pm PT
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I sense a "magic bolt" theory coming on... Call Oliver! =)
Just trying to lighten the tone. Cheer up and carry on people!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:08pm PT
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Another conspiracy spawn of the military industrial complex.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:18pm PT
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John (Fowler),
I know you said the move to place the blind RP is not really tricky, but since Steve described it as "highly technical", that is:
"The clean move which eluded you on Pitch 7 is a highly technical blind reach with a No. 3 RP out to the side bypassing the roof placement where you chose to nail."
Could you possibly provide just a little more detail.
Below is an enlarged version of Chris Mac's topo of the clean crux roof. As I understand it, Ammon placed a knifeblade/bugoaboo straight up, in the middle of the roof. However, you bypassed this placement. Does this mean your previous placement was at "A" in the topo? And you placed the RP at "B" or "C"? So you had no pieces straight up under the roof?
If you were at A and placed the RP at B or C, does the move have a "reach" component to it? What is your height (assuming you led this pitch)? Similarly, what is Ammon's height and addiroid's height? Guys?
One implication that may already be clear is that since Ammon's knifeblade placement was not needed for the clean ascent, any scarring/degredation caused by Ammon's (and others like addiroid's) use of that placement does not make it harder for others to do a clean ascent of the route. (except to the extent that people see a pin scar and might assume they should be trying to place something in it).
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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"(except to the extent that people see a pin scar and might assume they should be trying to place something in it). " -
And that would only matter if they had brought pitons and a hammer, in which case they probably were planning on nailing that scar to begin with. This circular logic is making me dizzy..............
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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244 posts, I just dont have time to go and read em all. Can anyone tell me briefly what this thread is about?
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
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This Grossman dude wants to take Ammon and the Madbolters out back of the woodshed! That's what's happening, it's sick, SICK!
Oh the HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 04:40pm PT
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Ben Rumsen,
The challenge that a first ascensionist leaves for the next party also weighs into the impact discussion. It is hard to argue that clipping into drilled placements, be they dowels, rivets or bolts, is particularly challenging unless they are manky. In this sense, the Shield is a far better result than the Dawn Wall. The Porter-Burton-Sutton ethic did not favor copperheads because they tended to become fixed and hence less technically interesting for the next party. I am not sure those guys even carried them in the style that they climbed. As with all hammered protection in the slippery slope world of aid climbing, gear choices affect the outcome. On routes like the Trip and Dawn Wall blank features could not easily be dealt with and dowel ladders are the result. Bridwell and others climbing in a style that utilized all of the gear at their disposal would have approached these features differently and so you have routes like the PO and Sea of Dreams where onus was on not drilling and filling with metal. The sustainability of either approach is clearly a subject for lively debate.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:40pm PT
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yawn ...
.. criticising one placement on a series of ascents is poor form in my mind ..
.. specially dragging a persons character into question ..
whatever ..
.. clean big wall climbing is also a total sham until you do it wihout using any fixed placements .. otherwise its not really clean.. (someone had to hammer in that fixed head -- or rurp. -- or bolt .. ) ..
... i'm going up zodiac again next year -- and i'm bringing my hammer + pins ..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
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... what is the sound of one brain cell clapping?
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
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the madbolters I can understand, but Ammon? What did he do, run a lap on their proud route in less than 24 hrs? Downgrade the rating? Sleep with their sister? Must of been something pretty bad to hit 244 posts!!! Sheesh... Thanks Yo
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 04:49pm PT
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Atch, you really should read all of it when you get time. Quite interesting stuff.
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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Maybe I miswrote, it is definately a blind placement and it was someplace between B & C, or maybe at C. This is kind of funny disecting this with such precision. I did this way back. I am only 5'10", very average, not particularly strong. This focus on the single move is not the point of this dicussion IMO. As I stated earlier, it is about the thought process and decisions/actions that occur in the bigger feild of play.
John
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:01pm PT
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Sorry Ricardo, the NPS outlawed pins in the Valley this week. Once the fixed heads are blown, you have to find another way up.
The NPS asked the climbing community to comment on the pending rules, but apparently only asked old, vocal climbers for their opinion. Younger climbers carried signs and vowed to fight the new ruling. They were dispersed by the remaining summer LEOs.
In response to questions, Park Superintendent Sanspins said that the new rule allows bolts, since they can send especially trained climbers up walls and 'restore' the holes with epoxy and granite dust. But they said the decision of when to use bolts was clearly up to the climbing community. "If the climbers, aid and free, don't want to use bolts that's ok with us," said Super Sanspins. "There are lots of nice hiking trails in the Park," he continued.
You would think that enforcement would be problematic, but apparently they have invested in really good scopes. SAR has been renamed SAD. Sounds wicked serious.
Buzz
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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We're trying to have a serious discussion about rock rape here, Breedlove. Not all of us have to make smartass jabs to feel like we're contributing.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
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I thought his "breaking news summary" was very informative. Some of the people on this forum should give it some thought.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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Birds of a feather, Ryan
Don't you like my name for the Super? (I borrowed it from Dickens.)
One of the picketers had a sign that said "SS out of Yosemite."
Buzz
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
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I'm not sure that Bridwell or the Sea are what you'd want to use as poster children for this "ethical" cause... Seriously. It's pretty common knowledge that he wasn't "Mr. Protect the Rock for Future Generations". No disrespect meant to him, at all. Just pointing something out. You may want to try a different angle there.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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John, thanks for your response on the details. I agree, it would be rather limiting if that was the only thing under discussion. But it seemed important enough to ask, since apparently if Ammon had not used it, this thread wouldn't exist. Since Ammon was being criticized, then we start to wonder if he missed a tricky move, or if the rock changed, etc.
For what it's worth, I've heard the average height of an adult (US?) male is 5'8" (average female is 5'5"). I'm not sure if that applies directly to the average height of climbers.
Ben, it is not automatic that if you see a pin scar then you try to hammer a pin into it. True, that is not an option if you are not carrying a hammer. But what I meant is that Chris Mac suggested maybe a slider nut or two would go into the scar, and addiroids tried that but it didn't hold. So a pin scar may be a distraction from a different move (in this case a blind reach) that may be needed to do it clean.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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Ron: "Healy, that it is "for each of us to decide" is actually at the core of the problem as, while protecting the life of the mallethead may be used as the excuse, we ALL have to live (OR DIE) with the results OF that decision."
Ron, I agree with you, Steve, and John - in principle - the problem is not everyone does and even if they did there is the problem of "enforcing" the ethic. Now I don't doubt you have at least one .50 cal sniper rifle with a ring tone locator at your disposal, but you simply can't be everywhere at once. And besides, let's face it, you of all people would look completely silly in the uniform. And while I have an outpouring of empathy for every renegade spirit backed into an oversight role, how you gonna force it on anyone? This conversation is about the best I think we can do, along with leading by example, and in that respect Steve is owed his due for tacking the issue up on a mirror for each of us to look at...
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:50pm PT
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Healy, I think we may finally have that elusive resolution yet!
I was getting psyched to join Ron, however, being an associate shooting enthusiast.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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Ricardo,
that business of saying that using fixed gear which was hammered obviates "clean" climbing is a pussy cop out, a rationalization used to excuse irresponsible behavior, a sham of erstwhile noble motives.
Why can't you admit that you're just spoiled by having been able to abuse the liberty of future climbers by altering their legacy at will, and that such discussions threaten the enjoyment of that blithe disregard, and that you are willing to grab at straws with flawed precepts just to attempt to maintain that undeserved freedom?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 05:56pm PT
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Madbolter1,
I believe selective memory serves your purposes far better than my own. If you feel that I am lying here, man up and just say so and I will return the favor on another thread once this one has run its course. In the meantime those details please, if you would be so kind. Is that polite or what?
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:01pm PT
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"Why can't you admit that you're just spoiled by having been able to abuse the liberty of future climbers by altering their legacy at will, and that such discussions threaten the enjoyment of that blithe disregard, and that you are willing to grab at straws with flawed precepts just to attempt to maintain that undeserved freedom? " -
Is not any first ascent that relies on pitons " altering the legacy of future climbers " then Ron? And I would have to say that really all ascents alter the rock to some extent - even free and clean climbing if it removes dirt and plants. Perhaps what we need is not a ban on pitons but a ban on new climbs.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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Healy,
I've come to the conclusion that climbers won't effectively self-regulate.
The result will be either a ban on climbing on public lands or else a whole new layer of bureaucracy, licenses, mandatory permits (even with lotteries, like river trips), certifications and FEES with a capital F.
Think in terms of SCUBA where you have to be certified.
Think in terms of hunting, where if you are not licensed you can lose your whole outfit (including vehicle).
It could very well be that future climbers look back on our lack of restraint and say, "There! You see what happens?"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
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Ben,
I think its possible to put up a route, making alterations to the resource, in a responsible manner with an eye towards long term viability.
That should be the priority objective not high numbers.
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Kartch
climber
Mutahna
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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Holy Crap (which this forum is)
My prediction - all this yappin will cause more traffic on CT this year than it has seen total since the FA. Those who do it clean (or bail trying) will return to the ground and spray to their disciples about why they are holy. On the other hand those who swing the hammer on the route will return to the ground and spray to their disciples about their holiness.
Me, I'll be having a good time watching Southpark.
Edit - My point is that all this thread is doing is cementing belief systems of the individuals, whether for or against the hammer.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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"I think its possible to put up a route, making alterations to the resource, in a responsible manner with an eye towards long term viability. " -
While I would tend to agree, it's easy to say this here at a computer keyboard but hard to remember or do strung out in the middle of 100' of tied off blades and Arrows 1000' off the ground, eh??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:22pm PT
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Nonetheless Ben it is an ethic I've stuck to for the past 20 years out of my career of FAs.
But this thread amazes me.
To paraphrase Homer, was this the piton that launched a thousand posts?
(OK maybe it was just Bart.)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:25pm PT
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Ron,
I think the movement towards ever increasing regulatory oversight and enforcement has been underway for some time and simply beginning to accelerate. From my perspective the necessity is pegged purely to the population statistic of the number of people who identify themselves as "climbers". I personally would like nothing more than to see those numbers, and the popularity of the sport, utterly collapse back to pre-80's levels. But with hundreds of gyms acting as engines powering and anchoring the commercialization of climbing and cranking out a steady annual tidal stream of climbers that's not likely to happen. Even if 80% of people who enter a gym successively drop out of climbing each year over their first five years it's still a staggering impact in raw numbers.
Windsurfing collapsed in just such a manner in the 90's and I for one am glad it did - less sailors at a very small number of constrained launch sites on days too big for kites. Again, I'm not holding my breath for the same in climbing and as land managers get educated to the risks and impacts (as recently witnessed) they will be stepping up regulation and enforcement to keep in sync with our impact. I see it as unavoidable and feel if you support clean ethics it has to be viewed as an acceptable cross to bear and one of our own making.
[ Edit: Maybe the epidemic of obesity is our last hope and refuge... ]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
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Nefarius, how DARE you bash on the Bird like that??? You can SAY that you meant no disrespect, but your point itself is clearly pejorative!!! We mad bolters have learned what you can and cannot say about the Bird, and you have CLEARLY crossed the line. How long will it take YOU to learn?
You are in a bind. The Bird was/is a great climber. Thus, you rightfully appeal to him as an example of "great" climbing. But "great" does not always denote "pure" or "ethical". You cannot dis him, though, as you have done; so you cannot demonstrate the very problem faced by those like SG who want us all held to the "highest" "ethical" standards at all times. YOU are the one who needs a different angle, because you simply cannot point out the problem BY dissing the Bird!
Get a clue, dude!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
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Bird droppings?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:39pm PT
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Right on... hahaha Careful, Rich... You're supposed to be on my belay at some point in the next few months...
Just making a point. I think Bird was a *great* climber (read amazing visionary). Always will. There are several people here, whom I know personally and have climbed with, who are more on the "Pins" side of things, who I think are great climbers too! My point was simply that if you're going to try to prove a point, do so uisng facts and players will help to prove your point.
Honestly, I think this issue has been beaten (pardon the pun)into the ground here. It's always the same thing, with the same folks on each side. This hasn't changed in decades, nor will it in the future. Unfortuantely, I think Ron is right. The end result will be a ban, heavy fees, etc...
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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After I broke down the move in question for Clint I kept wondering why knowbody seems to have found the blind placement. When I did that move I did not have a hammer or pins and I spent a bit of time trying to figure out how to use the pin scar at the end of the little roof. I had tunnel vision. Once I realized I would have to back off I broadened my horizons and found the placement. If I would have had a hammer I would never have found the blind placement. Definitely an interesting experience/adventure.
John
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Moose Cock?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Steve, I soloed HS in early summer of 84, where from Truck Stop the HP variation is quite obvious, making me eager to do it. I teamed with Richard and returned that summer. Upon getting to TS, there was the bolt hanging out of the first pitch. We did HP, establishing the variation along the way.
“Yours was likely not the second ascent as you claim. … I don't recall any bolts placed other than at the belay stations”
Steve, your memory is fading. I don’t have a topo in front of me to review, but I do recall the route fairly well. In addition to the bolt in the first pitch, there were couple of bolts on the traverse which we avoided by our variation (probably used for two closely-spaced tension traverses) and a short bolt ladder (4 bolts?) higher up on a barely overhung headwall. If you don’t remember any of those bolts (perhaps understandable after 22 years) there’s no way for you to recall placing or not placing the bolt lower down. What I know is this: After getting off the route we went to SAR and were told that SG and SH had just gotten off it three weeks earlier. Given the quality of information we received from climbers who had been in the Valley continuously over the time all this happened, along with the fact that the bolt/hanger was consistent with the rest of the climb, explaining the bolt to a phantom SA that squeezed in during the three weeks between our ascents is implausible, bottom line.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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" Unfortuantely, I think Ron is right. The end result will be a ban, heavy fees, etc..." -
Somehow I doubt that because nobody on the ground that doesn't climb can see people nailing 1/2 way up El Cap and the average joe tourist doesn't care if you nail or whatever as long as you don't splat on the ground next to his kids.
Nobody but climbers gives a damn about a pin scar on the side of El Cap! They're worried about finding a parking space near the cafeteria for their Cadillac!! And what time Happy Hour starts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:52pm PT
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SG, the details you ask for appear all over the place, including in these very forums. If you care so much, I guess you'll just have to track them down. Even the few points you treated as facts were incorrect, but, hey, when has that ever mattered to you? You have no problem publishing rumors and outright misrepresentations. So, I have no desire to engage with you on any level about what YOU think counts as the truth.
Whatever you are (or people think you are) as a climber says nothing about how you treat the value of the truth or the reputations of others. As your very first post in this thread demonstrates, you are quick to speculate about the motives and characters of climbers you don't know in your quest for "climbing purity." You would do better to seek for some personal ethics in addition to your climbing "ethics." How you treat PEOPLE matters far more than how any of us treat rock. Before he died, Harding called you one of the modern "Valley Christians." Perhaps you would have been proud to hear that from him.
Regarding calling you a liar, I didn't SEE you place the bolt, so I am not at liberty to say such a thing. I will say, however, that it is really convenient that in the three weeks from your posted FA date and when we went up on Horse Play, SOMEBODY (talk about inquiring minds want to know!) went up there and placed that ONE chicken bolt. Interesting, isn't it? I find it interesting, and more than merely suggestive. I think I'll publish my "findings" about this! Then we can trade libel suits. Should be fun, huh?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:58pm PT
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Nefarius, you got my point. And yours about me being on your belay is both accurate (hopefully!) and a point well taken. When the time comes, I'll consider myself to be aid-free-solo. :)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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Happy Hour! Damn, Ben you hit the nail right on the head! That's MY main concern too! Thanks! =)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:09pm PT
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Ben,
when it comes to the park service some of the parts are missing. That means they're not complete idiots.
They'll know the resource is wearing out.
If not from rescues caused by anchor failure then it'll likely be from the whiny mouths of the climbers themselves.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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Ben: "Somehow I doubt that because nobody on the ground that doesn't climb can see people nailing 1/2 way up El Cap and the average joe tourist doesn't care if you nail or whatever as long as you don't splat on the ground next to his kids. Nobody but climbers gives a damn about a pin scar on the side of El Cap! They're worried about finding a parking space near the cafeteria for their Cadillac!! And what time Happy Hour starts."
I suspect this is a pretty naive perspective. More likely all the sandstone areas will fall first and set the precedent for progressively tighter restrictions elsewhere eventually arriving at the Vatican of climbing with fully-formed and field-trialed protocols. Should keep the AF pretty busy for a decade or two. And who knows, maybe only folks who have passed the AMGA's 13-course Nailing Instructor cirriculum will be be allowed to carry a hammer. Well, at least someone will profit from new regulatory regimes...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
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Whats more, in Zion the routes are now showing damage from hauling that is visible from the road.
But thank you for reminding me
(about happy hour that is.)
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:21pm PT
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" Whats more, in Zion the routes are now showing damage from hauling that is visible from the road. " -
I wouldn't know, I only climb real rock. Not mud.
Oh well, these problems don't exist in the High Sierra, Sequoia or Kings Canyon, because everybody is too busy going up the same damn routes nose to ass of the party in front of them in Yosemite.
Yup, other than climbers, John Q Taxpayer does not give rats ass if you use HB nuts on the Prow or nail the f*#k out of it. He thinks we're all nuts and wants to know when his pizza is ready at the Curry Pizza deck..........and that's the truth. Only we climbers know the difference between a Big Bro and a Bong Bong!! Everybody else just wants to know how we poop up there ( better bring your poop tube dude )!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:28pm PT
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Mud huh?
Remind me; where is the climb that started this thread?
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:28pm PT
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"when it comes to the park service some of the parts are missing. That means they're not complete idiots.
They'll know the resource is wearing out.
If not from rescues caused by anchor failure then it'll likely be from the whiny mouths of the climbers themselves. " -
Maybe. Then again, when people get seriously hurt falling trying to clean aid routes that were safer and easier to climb with a couple of pins used here and there, maybe they'll just require each one of us to carry $ 1 million in accident insurance specifically for climbing in the Park as a direct result of pressure to not ever use a hammer or pins, eh?????
Won't that be ironic, eh??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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What I thought you'd gather was that the anchor failures were caused by hammer worn placements.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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" Remind me; where is the climb that started this thread? " -
Out there in Mudville, where Potter got all sorts of stuff banned already. If a haul bag wears out the wall ( rather than the other way around ) it's solidified mud in my book!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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Healy is right.
Domino number one.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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" What I thought you'd gather was that the anchor failures were caused by hammer worn placements " -
No, from the 17 or so walls I've climbed, and seeing the pressure to not use a hammer, I'll bet you we'll see anchor failures from people not having even emergency pitons, a hammer and the skill to use them - sooner or later. And blind faith in bolts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:36pm PT
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Darwinism?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:39pm PT
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Darwin's Hammer...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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Wow, so even hauling is a problem now? Then the likes of speed aid-climbers like Ammon are actually showing us the way!
Uhhh... but... as we have just seen, fast climbing and perfectly clean climbing are not always compatible.
Of course, we COULD just all agree on some general ideals (which we largely have). But, the general ideals (i.e.: don't drill too much; try to climb clean as much as is reasonably possible; clean up after yourself; avoid modifying existing routes; etc.) are not enough. As this thread has righteously reminded us: "It’s time for a little honesty and self-examination, which unfortunately has to be forced on [us] by others."
Fortunately for us all, we do have the "others" in the form of the modern Valley Christians to keep us in line in every specific ACT of climbing (by force, as has been quoted), lest we should stray in any particular and thereby defile the rock (read: their own highly refined and developed sense of purity and importance).
Ammon, just admit that you were bad. Vow to never do it again. Stay off of sandstone because the likes of YOU can't help but damage it in some way (oops, too late--uhh, ok, don't touch sandstone any more after this), and thank the "others" for forcing you into some much needed honesty and self-examination. You'll feel much better once you purify your soul by confession!
Wow, it's just amazing how almost righteous I feel now, like I've joined the "others," having admonished Ammon like that. Maybe a few million more admonitions like that and I will have fully climbed out of the deep, dank hole into which my own past transgressions have sunk me.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:53pm PT
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Dream on,...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:59pm PT
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Yeah, you're prolly right, Ron.
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scotty vincik
climber
up north, these days
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:04pm PT
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speaking of climbing clean on routes that have gone clean, Steve, I want to climb your route just right of the Nose. How was the style of ascent. The line is natural, and surprisingly continuous. I haven't found any info on it except for some guy drinking olde english and rambling on about "honky zulu...."
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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These posts should get even livelier after we all return from happy hour.
Edit: For the record, Steve G. is not a liar. And he's not a Christian by definition although he lives his life like one.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:30pm PT
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297, Can I hear a 300? Ammon's one pin has turned into another wings of steel spray-a-thon.
Ammon won this debate hands down. He made his case and walked away - two days ago. In case you lost track, today is September 14, 2006.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
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Msmith, your echoing my thoughts pretty close. I think it selfish of the elite among us to limite ethical ascents using pins to only those routes one of them hasen't managed to climb clean. It's absurd. Being a sandstone climber, I am as much for minimizing impact as the next guy, but the bar for what is considered an exceptable/ethical ascent for the average guy shoulden't be set by the elite or crazy. Have all you hardmen forgot about the learning curve and how much milage it has taken you to master your craft. Now you expect those of us still honing ours to stop climbing or leave alone some sought after ascent that promises to push our skills because you pulled off some low percentage death defying move. You'll never get anybody but the elite or proud to pretend they follow your definition of good ethics.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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Jerr, that's your opinion and I respectfully disagree. Once again, this isn't about one pin.
The WOS XXIV thread will have to start up again too. We can have dueling threads addressing these issues. Won't that be fun!
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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You are mistaken. Steve's not that kind of guy. I'm really amazed at how thin-skinned you guys/gals are. Sheeesh!
I don't remember climbers being like this back in the day.
But I'm pretty old I guess.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:47pm PT
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No One, how dare you??? The "others" are neither elite nor proud. They are simply GOOD! They are GOOD enough to tell you how to be! So, quit complaining and get GOOD too!
Purify your soul by confession, quit transgressing, and you too may someday aspire to the lofty heights of the GOOD. Then, you too can be like the other "dogs pissing on trees" and tell those below you how to be.
And, how did Ammon "make his case?" I didn't see any purified soul there!
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:49pm PT
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He didn't. He's probably busy working.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:59pm PT
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This is pretty funny. No_one has been trying to get me to show him some aid climbing skills but doesn't want to limit their use to where they can still be fully justified.
Hmmm,....
I suppose a little bit of knowlege can be a dangerous thing. lol
gonna hafta work sumtin out
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:59pm PT
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Working? Bah! I want confession! He's bad, bad, baaadddd! SG says so, so it must be true!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:01pm PT
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no_one: "Msmith, your echoing my thoughts pretty close. I think it selfish of the elite among us to limite ethical ascents using pins to only those routes one of them hasen't managed to climb clean. It's absurd. Being a sandstone climber, I am as much for minimizing impact as the next guy, but the bar for what is considered an exceptable/ethical ascent for the average guy shoulden't be set by the elite or crazy. "
I personally hope MSmith would say you're misintepreting at least part of his position. This "elite" / "elitist" argument is at least as lame as the "children are dying in Africa" one in my book. Setting the bar for what is possible and everyone striving for that is what climbing is all about - not floating with the lowest common denominator.
no_one: "Have all you hardmen forgot about the learning curve and how much milage it has taken you to master your craft. Now you expect those of us still honing ours to stop climbing or leave alone some sought after ascent that promises to push our skills because you pulled off some low percentage death defying move. You'll never get anybody but the elite or proud to pretend they follow your definition of good ethics. "
There are plenty of great routes out there that haven't gone clean yet that you could work on your pincraft if you want. But the skills necessary for clean aid climbs are not pincraft by definition. You could just as easily work your way up on C0 routes progressing up to hard clean moves like the one under discussion. Matter of fact, you could work on your clean skills to that point without ever picking up a hammer. Saying you need to work on your pincraft in order to learn to do hard clean moves is a bit odd from where I sit.
What I really hear you (and Ricardo and others) saying is I'm simply not interested in those ethics because they impinge on your trip for one of the three reasons I cited before (ass, time, top). Fine, say that and cop to one or more of those rationales, but this "elitist" and "learning" business sounds more like whining, at least to me anyway.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:07pm PT
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I stopped reading before the first forty posts, then checked back a few times. Still doesn't look like the arguement has gotten far, even after 300 posts, or did I miss something? Glad to see the Madventist faction is alive and well though. Hi Richard. Don't bring down the wrath of God too hard on these guys, okay? =)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:12pm PT
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Right on, healyje.
The distinction is, and will remain that of striving toward various general (and sometimes conflicting) ideals and vociferous nitpicking and character attacks (from self-styled "others") about particular judgments/acts.
I, for one, will always be more worried about how we deal with each other than how we deal with the rock. These don't have to be mutually exclusive, of course; we can be concerned with both at the same time. But they do often come apart, as the start of this thread indicates.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:21pm PT
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Yikes you guys still here in the control room .......
It's time you all go out and get some beer and pizza. I'll buy.
Oh mannn .............
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:25pm PT
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We're all heading to our fave pubs. Check in later Werner, we've got some more SOPs to work on.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:38pm PT
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I would rather be a hammer than a nail. Yes I would!!
Or
I would rather be Werner than bear #46
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
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healyje, not whinning just voicing my thoughts. Those that know me know that I'm a clean climber and dedicated to putting up clean lines. I don't even own a pin rack, have never driven a pin other than in a drilled hole. But if I was to put myself in one of your catagories or say that I'm trying to represent a certain group, it would be "ASS". My olny reservations against full agreement in "once clean always clean", is when a good line is off limit to other good climbers because one climber weather elite or crazy, eliminates one pin that protects a devestating fall. Call me a pvssy, whatever.
Ron, if your giving the mountain best, how could anyone justify a bolt ladder? If the mountain put a blank face infront of you just bail and give the mountain best!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
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An old question and one answered in a question of degree.
Besides, from a purely 'environmental impact' point of view, a one time bolt has less impact than continual nailing.
Just wondering;
has anyone ever seen Werner and #46 in the same place at the same time???
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 14, 2006 - 10:14pm PT
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yer all a bunch a wankers. the only valid form of climbing is bouldering. HIGHBALL bouldering. at your limit. break bones or die, sukkas.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 10:18pm PT
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Bouldering is for people too simple to use tools (or too scared to handle REAL exposure).
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Sep 14, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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Yea Ron so true. Isn't pebble climbing just practice anyway.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:02pm PT
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Pebble climbing is for girly-men. Ja. Ja.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:23pm PT
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Tell that to Dick Cilley.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
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Hey, wienerdude, to quote you:
Hammerchine,
Yes I built you a beautiful and opulent home gym to go along with your lifestyle and new house. I "got weird" when you refused to pay an honest materials bill that you had been informed was still forthcoming when Keith and I left your jobsite. That and being dismissed summarily like a common servant for presenting said bill doesn't exactly leave me feeling chummy and desiring your company. As is so often the case in my experience as a general contractor, I absorbed the loss and moved on. Perhaps you should too.
For starters, it's "hummerchine". And if you want internet war, you've got it. I completely agree, you built me a beautiful and opulent home gym. The other details you have dead wrong. You quoted me $10k to build my gym over ten years ago, ended up costing me more than $20k, along with taking far longer than you predicted. You mention your experience as a general contractor, my experience with general contractors is more money and time than quoted. But I must apologize to contractors, you have riled me and I'm sure there are contractors that do as they say. When you presented me with the final bill, you were also apologetic about the fee being so much higher than quoted. You then said that there were some minor materials bills still due, but since you were so over the bid you would pay for them. If you recall, you had the flu at the time, perhaps that has muddled your memory. Or perhaps it was the massive amounts of marijuana you were smoking at the time, just about every time my wife and I visited the job site there were clouds of fragrant smoke. Not that I had any issue with that, if that is what inspires you to greatness that is fine by me. But that may have also slowed you down, along with altering your perception of what happened back then. I told you that even though I was displeased with the overage on the bid, I was also thrilled with the work you did, so I would pay you and be happy. Which I did and was. So like six months later I went to the new Vertical Club in Fremont with a friend and happened to run into you. I told you how much I loved my gym, along with the new one you had worked on in Fremont. We went out afterwards and bought you some beers. It was great to see you. And then you called me a few days later to tell me that I owed you another $1500 for my gym. I was taken by surprise and flabbergasted. I called my friend and told him the story, he said something along the lines of: "If you pay him that, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!". You sent me a copy of a ledger that was utterly illegible, I wrote you to tell you what I am writing here, and that you had already been paid in full. If that is what you call being "dismissed summarily like a common servant", then so be it. I would never run my business like that. And I moved on at the time, the only reason it was brought up now was your public trashing of someone who sounds to be an awesome climber who never deserved any of it, especially on this forum. I will also point out that whoever posted your gear lists for your climbs pretty well nailed it (no pun intended). You have obviously done plenty of nailing and plenty of rock alteration in the process. What gives you the right to get so hot and bothered about somebody placing one freaking pin? If you don't want people posting like I have done, then shut it up.
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todd-gordon
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 11:57pm PT
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Lots of interesting posts......Personally, I too, used to treat climbing like a religion....it seemed so goddamned important, and ruled my life for decades. I personally have banged pins in many times, drilled a shitload of bolts, and always tried to do my best with style and safety. Now that I have 3 infants at home, I feel like, for me anyways, I can cut away the "fat", and get to the meat of life for me ;....happiness, good health, kindness, and fun for myself, my wife, and my babies. It is refreshing to be outside looking in, instead of always inside looking out. What is more of a crime;...scaring a rock or scaring a person? (Believe me... I have done both...many,many times...). Tonight,... I can sleep at night just fine, even with the knowledge that Ammon banged in a pin when he should have used a chock. (Talk to me 15 years ago... another story...)..I totally respect both Ammon and Steve for the inspiring and rad stuff they can do and actually do accomplishment....I am not really taking sides,;..just sort of looking back at how , for so many years, I thought very much like both Steve and Ammon.....Now-a-daze,...I am just thrilled as hell to go out for a half day of easy craggin'.....am I lame and should take up golf ,or am I on to something? ....Do I have the wisdom of a crusty old guy whose been around the block a few times, or am I just a crusty old fart living in the past without a clue?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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Or are you just an old guy whose farts can be smelled around the block?
I think Hammerchine may have posted in the wrong thread (see Steve's Gym of Smoke.)
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:38am PT
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Todd, you know you have the wisdom. I happen to write letters about ANWR, and other "causes" too. Not having any chillins gives me the extra time to be outspoken about things that I think matter.
Edit: Too funny Rondaddy! We need to go shooting sometime.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:47am PT
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no_one,
Fair enough on the safety front. I just still have a bit of hard time with the "elite / crazy" aspect of your line of reasoning. The "elite / crazy" are just who I count on to push the limits and once they illustrate what's possible I do try to rise to that because in a very real sense they've eliminated that much of the unknown. In striving to follow that new ethic or style standard I'm feel I'm already a leg up just by virtue of the fact they did the heavy lifting confronting that particular chunk of fear of the unknown.
Also, that "elite / crazy" characterization tends to shroud such indidviduals with some sort of unattainable anonynimity and casts what was accomplished as some sort of unachievable singularity. I personally find that sort of thing counterproductive and don't really buy into the whole hero thing. Take Ammon. Who would have thought some of the routes he's done could be done in a day, yet he does it again and again. It's obvious it isn't a fluke, he's clearly human, has taken numerous others along, and they all seemed to perform well enough for him to keep at it.
My take is he's simply organized his life to make aid climbing a priority, logged the yardage, paid more than his share of dues, and worked hard to hone his skills. And it probably doesn't hurt that his job happens to entail working hard at heights. It could just be me but I don't consider him "elite" or "crazy" - just dedicated and committed. I don't happen to be into the "speed" thing, but if I were Ammon's approach would resonate and I would strive to emulate it specifically because I don't view it as completely out of reach regardless of whether I ever actually managed to do such a route in a day. If anything, Ammon has shown such ascents are clearly within our grasp...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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I can't believe you guys.
It's easy to tell the dickheads in this thread, for sure.
230 posts over one fvcking pin.
Got nothing better to do with your life than bitch about that?
Jesus fvcking christ.
May the non-existant god deliver me from sanctimoneous, self righteous, pissy a$$holes, no matter who they may be.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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Piton Ron:
I was about to post that you were wrong and that I had indeed posted in the correct thread, when I got your joke. WAY funny, and clever!
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:00am PT
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Try putting up the interior walls in a 800 square foot gym for more than double the quoted amount, you trying to hit me up for more later, and the details are indeed interesting...and weird.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:05am PT
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Take your freakin' laundry somewhere else.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:58am PT
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I read to about 160 but my time is running out and just wanted to contribute my 2 cents.
I think Ammon is a great guy and a great talent. He shouldn't be the poster child for nailing abuse, but the general idea of this thread is creating some positive dialog.
It think it's high time for a greater emphasis on clean and sustainable aid climbing. Aid climbs change from season to season and evolve and devolve quickly, partly because the hammering keeps changing the routes for future generations.
There have been two answers to the changing nature of aid routes:
1. Some folks have engaged in "clean-ups" that involved removing duct-tape, dead heads and broken pins, but also fixed pins, nuts and heads.
2. Some folks try to climb em clean as possible and fix the gear that would have to be hammered to stem the tide of damage.
I think some of the clean-up action is a valuable contribution but removing hammered gear from routes so they have to be re-nailed and re-headed preserves some adventure at the expense of the longevity of the route. I don't feel good about that.
It's funny how the some of the same folks who decry bolting or beefier rivets to make climbs safer and who champion boldness of many sorts think it's OK to hammer on an aid climb if it make you safer.
Now there are devils in the details. Placing a pin on the Nose is a cut and dried sin.
Placing one on the Shield is another matter. My understanding is that the route has only been done clean a few times by folks really sticking their necks out.
Where to draw the line? Who can say. I'd just like to reinforce a culture that looks towards passing down something better than a hammered-out and trashed stone to, hopefully, hundreds of year of future climbers, even if that means some placements have to remain fixed until better gear makes climbing it clean doable
Peace
Karl
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 02:06am PT
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What better place to take huge whippers than the great golden shield? Still the finest 8 pitches on El Cap, IMVHO.
Right on Karl!
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robman
climber
Wasangeles
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Sep 15, 2006 - 07:44am PT
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You go Dixie...
Steve you are an ASS!!!
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robman
climber
Wasangeles
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Sep 15, 2006 - 08:05am PT
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You go Dixie...
Steve you are an ASS!!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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Scotty Vincik,
I have two routes in that area; The Competitive Edge (aka Real Nose) and the Central Scrutinizer. It sounds like you are after the Central Scrutinizer. Bill Russell had started up the first two pitches before Jay Ladin and I came along.
I stopped releasing topos after the Jolly Roger had a drill taken to it by Duane Raleigh and Tom Cosgriff (Team Arctic Seas) on the first attempt to repeat the route. They retreated below the Gold Doubloon because "the rock was wet," as Duane put it, but they were clearly in over their heads having commenced to drill on A3 ground a few pitches up. Charles Cole and I discovered the mess when Rusty Reno and Alex Lowe repeated the lower pitches and noticed several hook holes. Neither Charles or I drill a hole without filling it so the game was up. Unfortunately, Rusty took a hundred footer on the now infamous mantle move so the hole report stopped there.
The topo for The Central Scrutinizer only appears on Clay Wadman's right side map and it was drawn from memory and hence less than accurate. The Polish party of Maciej Ciesielski and Jacek Czyz is the only known repeat ascent.They sent me a photo topo which I would be happy to send to you. I did a lot of micronutting on this one which is why it took us fourteen days to do it. The info that I tried to spread around at the time was that 8-10 FULL sets of RP's were necessary. Except for freeing the Jardine Traverse, there isn't really much in the way of mandatory free climbing. The route does feature The Continental Drifter (aka South American Vacation), a truely horrific expanding flake some twenty-five feet tall (shaped as the aka implies) that is perched on slightly less than vertical rock and directly attached only at the bottom by an area the size of a guide book spine! I lead the thing on my toes detached from my aiders and ready to jump off at the first groan. Make no mistake, if the flake goes, it's angel wings for your party. I have no problem if you would like to move the station out to the right by adding some bolts. The pitch below is all drilled and not of real consequence. The problem here is that the flake rests in a tiny left facing and right leaning corner so as the belay would move right and so does your partner's ass with no intervening protection! Hopefully the flake would slide and exit stage left which would bullseye the original belay station. Use your discretion well here. The good news is the 3/8" bolt before you actually have to hook accross the top. The route has some exciting climbing and the position at the station below the drilled pitch is right out on the prow and fearsomely exposed. I took a fifty foot fall on the pitch below with two medium RP's (and some fall arresters); all that stood between me and a hundred footer right onto the belay. The sound of those arresters ripping is still with me, I thought my number was up for sure! Jay's comment after holding the screamer was "Steve, I think I might be getting a little old for this sort of thing!" I collected my shits and wits and drove that long bugaboo just a little bit harder the second time around behind the suitcase sized block which was spitting crumbs just missing Jay's head at the belay. It's a thriller for sure and has some really beautiful clean rock despite bumping into Tribal Rite here and there.
The Competitive Edge features more wild free climbing. The Wadman right side map is accurate since Steve Gerberding and company provided a topo (which I could detail) after they repeated the route. The topo for this route is readily available in the Big Wall guidebooks. I hope this information is of use to you.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
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Hummerchine,
Tom as you may recall your gym was built on an estimate and a handshake. No bid, no contract. The original estimate was to build out part of the space available as represented in a foamcore model of one side only. As the scope of the buildout expanded to cover the entire interior of the space available, so obviously did the expense. Move on.
This crap is a real threadkiller.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Sep 15, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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"That you and many others, involved in this alpine ghetto game called speed aid climbing, are willing to give yourselves license to climb in poor style is ethically deplorable because it speeds up the degradation of the vertical environment."
My concern with the example used to illustrate the whole premise of the OP, is that the degradation occured not on the clean crux but on an alternate placement. The climbing was not altered for someone who wants to do it clean.
It would have been better style to get it clean. But is it ethically wrong to nail an alternate spot? Or is that a question of style?
Say someone who is 5'4" can't make that reach, can they nail the alternate spot with their ethics intact?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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A worthy if minor distinction.
I'm 5'6" and would hate to be the one to say I nailed (albeit an alternate) on a line done clean.
Better to up my skills or rig a cheater stick with a mirror.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:10am PT
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Healyje,
When I talked about the elite and crazy I wasn't sudgesting that the best or elite climbers among us are crazy, infact, I think most of the elite are far from crazy. I believe they use all their knowledge and experience every time they push their limits to recognize and minimize the risk. Those that have neither the experience or adequate knowledge to recognize the dangers they face or just don't give a damn and do it anyway after a twelve pack, should not (in my opinion) be given the right to change a routes exceptable ethics.
I also agree that the elite amoung us do set a standard for us common folk to strive for and I do respect that. I just can't agree it's right for a routes exceptible ethics to change because one of the elite (damn I'm tired of saying that word) got a hardon towards eliminating every last pin on a route. I do however apploud the goal. Maybe the answer is a certin number of clean ascents. Once a route has been climbed clean say 5 times, than it's a clean line only, I don't know. I'm just whinning right!
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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this thread is so totally f*#ked! you just want to bpost here cuz everyone is reading it!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:36am PT
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Strong,
I only wish you were right, but Steve is for real. Just needs to expand his time horizon a bit, but maybe thats precluded by the tenets of Mormon Rastafarianism.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:40am PT
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Amen, Ron.
But that's Moronorastifarianismus to you fella.
Rajmit, aren't you aware that radical extremism is the rage these days? Get with the program!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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Ragmeat, are you speaking from experience??
Mimi, Steve's not a moron, merely spiritually challenged.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Even though the guy (steve) that started this thread seems spiritualy chalenged as well, I think your talken to me.
I'm not sure though. My short term memories not to good.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:53am PT
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I knew what caused that just a minute ago....
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:57am PT
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Wait, I'll remember.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Shouldn't this be on the Steve's House Of Smoke thread?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:07am PT
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Hey Ron, should I split this thread? And if so, what should we call it? I think the conversation should continue, don't you?
How about Impactomoronorastifarianism?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:20am PT
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no_one,
I think the issue for me is this notion that you keep painting that only extreme or exceptional characters are the ones who do the first clean ascents and so that somehow lessens the obligation we have to strive for the same. From my perspective, if someone does it clean, then that's what I'd be shooting for. If it went clean more than once than I would think it wouldn't even really be a question, at least for me.
On the hammer issue I'd say leave the hammer and you're totally committed to a clean ascent and you damn well better be solidly advanced in your technical skills, be highly creative in addition, and also be prepared to deal with anything that comes up - including bailing clean as well. On a wall I don't think anyone would be arguing that isn't an exceptional commitment and one would hope folks going after it would have the requisite skills and experience. I'm guessing John and Steve are largely arguing relative to people capable of operating at this level and then probably on routes that either have gone, or are likely candidates for going, free.
Take a hammer, pins, and bolt kit but leave them in the bottom of your haul bag when leading with the intent to do a route clean and you're clearly less [objectively] committed, but as Ammon says, you are prepared to deal with any eventuality. If a route has only gone clean once or twice or you don't happen to climb aid consistently and comfortably at a real high level then I don't believe anyone is going to think less of you because you came prepared and are packing. In fact, I'd say kudos for you for starting to make that leap into higher level of commitment to do things.
I hear Ammon saying that unless you have the requisite skills, and likely even if you do, you should be at least packing, if not toting. I think that then gets into the whole question of whether there are clean ethical issues at the busy intersection of one's route choice, its clean "status", your goals, and your real capabilities. If the route's gone clean (or multiple times as you suggest) maybe there's a real legitimate issue to gripe about when someone launches with a hammer in hand.
But I don't think for a minute that it's a simple or cut-and-dried issue either, leaving the ground without a hammer is a committing call with dead serious implications. Made by the right person[s] it's not all that different than setting yourself a 24 hour deadline for a big wall and taking so little gear you don't need to haul. Seems to me you could get hung out to dry (or drip) pretty damn easy either way and you better know what the hell you're doing.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:25am PT
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dude but let me say. f*#ke everyhintg! people who know, kjnow. so those who claim they folllow 300 posts and understand, liars, all of them! seirously. whoever could read this whoel thread and follow each tangent is my gotdamn hero. of course. you uygs are being dumb. just shutup already and stop talking for the sake of beig talking
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:25am PT
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dude but let me say. f*#ke everyhintg! people who know, kjnow. so those who claim they folllow 300 posts and understand, liars, all of them! seirously. whoever could read this whoel thread and follow each tangent is my gotdamn hero. of course. you uygs are being dumb. just shutup already and stop talking for the sake of beig talking
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:31am PT
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Barely standing: go take a nap and come back later.
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Michael
Trad climber
Boulder
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Sep 16, 2006 - 02:09am PT
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Steve, I rarely post on this site so when I say you need to take your self rightous head out of your ass and look in the mirror, you should seriously take it to heart. Try focusing your passionate diatribes on something more selfless, important, and humanitarian. Talk about ego...Ammon, I haven't seen you in a couple years; hope all is well. I'm sorry you have to put up with Steve's cathartic ST discharge...
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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This beats anything on rc.com.
one f*#king piton placement...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
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Bob,
you're %110.
Talk about making a mountain out of a divot!
But really this thread is about a lot more than just a single hidden anchor placement.
Its about;
principles
hero worship/ leadership
resource preservation
drinking
smoking
life
love
cathartic discharges
and really poor spelling.
LOL Hey! Its finally out of triple digits. Time to go climbing.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Sep 16, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Bob D
we all know your ethics suck! go rapp bolt, hang dog up another line!
The route was put up clean and should be climbed clean.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 16, 2006 - 04:53pm PT
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Hardman said, "The route was put up clean and should be climbed clean."
Is that true, the part about CT being put up clean. If so I'll have to withdrawl from the record, that I didn't think the one pin was a big deal. Even one pin on a route that's never been nailed is to many! Ammon wasn't the first to nail it was he? Regardless, he's still a good guy and damn, he's fast!
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Sep 16, 2006 - 06:55pm PT
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softboy wrote: Bob D
we all know your ethics suck! go rapp bolt, hang dog up another line!
The route was put up clean and should be climbed clean.
That really hurts. LOL.
Get a life!
Softboy...fyi...rap bolting and hangdogging have nothing to do with ethics.
Again...get a life wanker.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 16, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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Cosmic Trauma was not "put up clean". That is, the first ascent was not done clean; pitons were used.
First ascent info rom bigwall.com:
Cosmic Trauma (FA) Barry Ward, Alan Humphrey, 4/89
And as reported on supertopo.com, the first clean ascent was in 2003 by John Fowler and partner.
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chossman
climber
lone pine, ca
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Sep 17, 2006 - 02:14am PT
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What ever happened to the 'Saint' Steven we all love and know? I would agree with that Steve's comments are inflamatory. Steve, I remember how riled up you were about Duane Raliegh chipping hook placements on your route Jolly Roger, but you handled it in a very understated way. That was something to get upset about and you barely shed a tear.
One piton placement? Really. You sound like the old man across the street who used to yell at us kids for just being kids. "Kids these days - with their shenanagins, always raising a ruckus." Let the speed climbers have their fun and don't rain on their parade. ...Unless you can do the route as fast as Ammon without the piton.
"all gawds chillun loves beer."
--Che Desa Tay
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Teth
climber
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Sep 18, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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If you are climbing a first ascent with no hammer, how many hook moves past your last good piece are you willing to risk if there is no guaranty when you will find a good placement? Does it matter? Are you willing to repel off a hook? If you are twenty hook moves out and can’t find another placement, even for a hook, then do you repel off of a hook, or down aid the twenty hook moves? Or, if you can’t see your next good placement do you just not risk exploring on hooks?
Just a curious n00b.
Teth
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Oct 27, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
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Remember when supertopo was old guys bitching about climbing instead of old guys bitching about nothing?
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Oct 28, 2014 - 08:03am PT
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I'd personally like to thank all those ancient crack nailers for making sweet little fingerlocks in things that would be too tiny for my fat digits.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Oct 28, 2014 - 09:08am PT
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I kind of like this trend of bringing back old posts that used to be what Supertopo was about. It's been happening more and more lately, and I like the trend.
I don't have much to add to the OP as I'm too biased to have a worthwhile opinion, but I have enjoyed this thread.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 28, 2014 - 10:09am PT
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I have always pushed clean climbing about as far as I could.
But I have also carried courage in my ruck sack.
I will continue to use a pin when I feel the "need." Why?
Because I'm chicken. I'm older and not as bold as I once was.
I value living, and unbroken body parts more than I treasure a clean placement. But I still value climbing and will continue to climb, for the time being.
The end.
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Leggs
Sport climber
Made in California
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
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Between the WoS thread (and video) and THIS thread, as well as the bashing of other well respected climbers (not to mention guidebook*s) over the years, I have come to the following conclusion: Steve Grossman, you're kind of an as#@&%e, and I've met you in real life...I guess my first impression of you was wrong. Disappointing.
Stop feeling so damned entitled and stop bashing people, esp amazing people like Ammon. This thread, and other threads you have contributed to really do display that you sir, are a VERY sore loser.
Best of luck to you.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
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Duane Raliegh chipping hook placements on your route Jolly Roger
Really? What a punter!
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BrandonAdams
Big Wall climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Nov 25, 2014 - 06:41am PT
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Ammon is an idol of mine.
Grossman's ethic and style are what I aspire to.
I agree with Grossman about the need for continual discussion about clean climbing and the progression of climbing in general. Sometimes it will get heated. Sometimes names will be called. Keeps us on our toes. I don't take Grossman's post as an affront against Ammon.
Keep at it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 25, 2014 - 07:15am PT
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The resurrection of this thread, along with the current WOS threads, make me wonder at how the microsom of climbing that El Cap is can induce so much sniping and, generally, drama queen prattle that feeds on itself and grows completely out of proportion.
Who pounded a pin, who said what, who should apologize, who needs to be taken out to the woodshed?
Who cares? Lots of people here evidently.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 25, 2014 - 07:18am PT
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Same general discussion as the bolts on Cerro Torre, and every other mountain people think they climb in "style".
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 25, 2014 - 07:25am PT
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Duane Raliegh chipping hook placements on your route Jolly Roger
Really? What a punter!
I know Duane. Duane is not a punter by any means. Look up his history. Know what you are speaking of before you trash talk.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 25, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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^^^
I have no dog in this fight, but as I recall even Raleigh admits that they f'ed up the attempt at the second and were in over their heads at the time.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 25, 2014 - 08:21am PT
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El Cap-
I don't have a dog in the fight either. Sounds like you have info I have not heard.
But I do know Duane. I've climbed some of his routes. They are usually rated with an X.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 25, 2014 - 08:28am PT
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^
At work and it was a while ago. All were at Quaurtz and around .9. There were a lot of heavy runouts there.
edit: I don't want to get into a pissing match. I'll back out. Just have to stand up for a friend.
double edit: one was S wall. my brain is recharging
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 25, 2014 - 08:47am PT
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ElCap- Your posts on this forum leave me with no reason to doubt your credibilty. I wasn't there.
I just speak as a person that has known Duane. Good guy, good friend and bold climber.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 25, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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"He among you who has never done a single act of unnecessary pounding or bolting, let him cast the first stone at Ammon."
"Ammon, doth no climber condemn thee?"
"No my Lord."
"Nor do I condemn thee. Go and just sin once in awhile as you are currently doing."
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