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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:12am PT
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DMT: . . . that piece said more in 10 mins than you manage in 500 posts, bud.
And certainly compared to reading all of those other eggheads, eh?
:-)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 08:54am PT
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"No power on earth compares to a mother's tender prayers."
Edwin Arnold
Yeah that Edwin could throw some quotes. All most as hopeless a Romantic as Matthew Arnold.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:50am PT
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Below is Arnold's devastating retort to the arrogance of science:
"In 1875, Josiah Mason gave a gift to establish a college which was called the Mason Science College (now a part of the University of Birmingham). Within the terms of the gift to the institution, one of the stipulations was that classics not be taught. Of course at such an institution, the Founder Day's address was logically given by Thomas Henry Huxley on the place of Science in Education. Huxley preached the virtues of science and derisively dismissed all value in studying classics, and he wondered whether any rational person would choose to study classics over science. His conclusion was that the only people who would choose a study of classics are those like "that Levite of culture" Matthew Arnold. Arnold took the opportunity to respond to his friend. In his reply, Arnold acknowledged that nobody would expect him to engage Huxley in a debate about science, and though he wouldn't presume to take on Huxley in such a debate, he did want to mention something that struck him as he thumbed through a book of Huxley's friend. Arnold noted that he was struck by the idea that "our ancestor was a hairy quadruped furnished with a tail and pointed ears, probably arboreal in his habits.' Arnold acknowledged that he isn't a scientist and therefore doesn't dispute such a claim, but he did want to point out that even if that were true, with regards to this good fellow, there must have been a necessity in him that inclined him to Greek. And would always incline him to Greek. After all, we got there, didn't we?'"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:54am PT
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the arrogance of science...
devastating retort...
Interesting phraseology there.
cf: the arrogance of science vs the arrogance of the science community vs the arrogance of certain quarters of the science community vs the arrogance of scientists or science practitioners
Aren't they worth distinguishing?
re: choosing your battles
Another pov or yet a different level of consideration... the idea of critiquing nature (for all its injustices, inequalities, hardships, heavy lifting etc) as opposed to critiquing science.
They are different, you know.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:02am PT
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The arrogance is Josiah Mason"s and Huxley's notion that any education but one in science is superfluous and undesirable. You have to admit Arnold's response is, that's right, Classic.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:04am PT
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wBraun
Yer all enslaved already and has nothing to do with you people's st00pid religion ideas.
The minute you think you are the material body you are enslaved ....
Antichrist
The minute you think you are seperate from the physical body you are delusional. The moment you realize you are inseprable you are.
"Foregoing self, the universe grows I." -Edwin Arnold
Oooh, snap! Now try it without the anger, anti-ness, or just quietly be? Some agreement? I can't say. no mas eh? Scorecard? Guru, 1. Anti 1/2, or 2/3? Don't neglect the missing part.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 10:07am PT
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I suppose, arguably, Matthew Arnold was right about any new world powerless to be born... in his time.
But hey, this is C21 and it ain't over yet.
...
Moreover, let's not forget this Matthew Arnold gem...
"The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next."
...
Curious, Paul,
(1) did you catch any of that Azim Shariff podcast? and if so, anything you particularly appreciated or could relate to that you could share here?
For ref: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/629616978/creating-god
(2) do you accept the idea or "theory" that today's religious systems are evolved social systems (evolved products)... evolved over countless million regenerations... stretching back to our pleistocene years and in a kind of darwinian evolutionary sense?
(3) or is this now a partisan, third-rail or taboo subject you just won't touch?
...
Having a bone to pick with Nature makes more sense than having a bone to pick with Science. That's the way I've come to see it. A long time ago now.
Science is only a messenger. Critiquing science is only a step away from critiquing knowledge or truth or education. Is it not?
How many study history? How many people in our various public systems nd demographics have studied history? Are those really times we'd like to return to? I, for one, no. No way.
Let's face it: In numerous respects Mother Nature Herself has us over a pickle barrel. And the way I see it - for those wishing to partake/continue - to be or not to be and all that - the most productive and compassionate way to deal with it is... forward, onward, upward. Without any turning back.
For a sober look at history, I'd recommend...
https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/
Not for the squeamish.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 11:35am PT
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Let's face it: In numerous respects Mother Nature Herself has us over a pickle barrel. And the way I see it - for those wishing to partake/continue - to be or not to be and all that - the most productive and compassionate way to deal with it is... forward, onward, upward. Without any turning back.
The problem with modernist theory, which is so intimately tied to science, is its continual side effect of unintended consequences. The direct effect of science and modernist theory has been, for instance, a massive explosion in human population as well as an accompanying massive explosion in pollution. Call out religion all you want but science and its advancements in technology have much to do with the present human ecological dilemma. Furthering the problem is this unbridled modernist enthusiasm that declares "sure we've made some mistakes but we're mankind's only hope to clean it up." As in onward and upward: I'm not so sure, problem is you're not always going upward.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
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I have good news then - we the people can leverage religion to more effectively fight the wars to cull the herd.
Ah, if only it was that easy. Unfortunately, except for a relatively small number of fundamentalist fanatics, religion has too little taste for war and science remains deep in the service of its benefactors as in better living through chemistry. Seems there is very little hope.
I just had a talk with Jesus.
Hopefully he told you to either pick up your balls or hit them over the net.
On the otherhand, most religious peple I know have 3 to 10 kids, average probably around 5 per nutjob. They have faith in god, until faced with death or adverse health, at which time the run crying to science for a fix. They oppose birth control and breed like rabbits... with the help of science.
Ultimately everybody dies and science can't do much about that and that's one reason close to 85% of the earth's population remains religious.
Nearly every scientist I know tries hard to reduce their footprint and live responsibly... you see far more jesus fish and crosses on big diesel trucks than you do on priuses (prii?).
Yes the lab-coat boys at Monsanto have a new saying: "Let's all get a Prius." or was that "let's all make a new kind of Roundup?" Or maybe "let's make a new kind of chicken?" Can't remember.
You make two mistakes: I'm not arguing against the benefits of science and you read the sacred texts as though they were failed attempts at science. They are not.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
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Oh no, they remain religious because they are chickenshits who can't handle the truth... and they use religion to block out the reality of their ephemeral existence.
Well maybe everybody can't be a he-man like yourself. Ha! Yeah, some poor women who lost a child is a chickenshit because she might find comfort with religion in her grief and doesn't face up to your version of reality? You need to go back and talk to Jesus some more.
There you go again, mistaking corporate driven motives with science. Don't worry, it is a common mistake idiots make all the time.
There you go again mistaking politically driven motives with religion. Yeah, idiots make that mistake "alot."
Again, for at least the 3rd time, I don't read "sacred texts" as though they are attempts at science... I read them as the ancient fairytales they are, concocted during the infancy of one particular manifestation of civilization, handed down orally for thousands of years, and altered to fit the needs if the ruling class and subjugate the masses...uhr, I mean "the inerrant and eternal word if god."
Failed attempts at science, failed attempts at science. That's exactly what you're doing. They're fairy tales not real science and that's your critique period.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
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Glad you enjoy playing with my balls Paul.
Another fine argument well thought out and nicely written. You'll do well next year in high school. Meantime you might try a chapter book.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 11, 2018 - 07:03pm PT
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You gotta fight, for your right, to science... meh, or just do some math or something.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 11, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
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Hey, how's that ignoring me thing going for you?
Don't think I ever said anything about ignoring must've said ignorance. Look at it again.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 12, 2018 - 04:40am PT
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why bother entertaining any discourse with anyone enslaved to the hypocrisy that is structured religion?
I find it entertaining though,
that the figure willing to go by the name, that those believers in Christ, can't or won't address when faced with the actual one in their midst draws aim at the low hanging fruit.
now for this
"has us over the Pickel barrel" (Pickle!!)
(noway?! I have a program that is supposed to underline, in red, all spelling mistakes, garrblebase broke it!)no way and Garrble Base both have a red line, not pickel
really?
Wow, do you have any idea the origins & meaning of that Phrase?
If you do you are disgusting
If you don't
then stupidity is no excuse for vulgarity
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:41am PT
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So I'm thinking perhaps it's time to cut Paul some slack for if he vacates we are screwed... af... since he's the only one left?
Love you, Paul! :)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:44am PT
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Anti: There you go again, mistaking corporate driven motives with science. Don't worry, it is a common mistake idiots make all the time.
That makes every company in Silicon Valley idiotic.
. . . I read them [religious narratives] as the ancient fairytales they are . . . .
That’s your reading.
Religion and science are both belief systems. It’s possible to see clearly without employing either.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:54am PT
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Well, you keep saying you aint gonna play with my balls unless I put them right where you want them... yet you keep going out of your way for them.
Ha. you argue like The Donald. Trolling off into the nether-lands while ignoring the real argument, an argument that you just can't seem to make. So you resort to describing those that disagree as idiots and sick fuks and then obsess on your balls so much I'm beginning to think you're really Auntie-christ.
I repeat, you read sacred texts as if they were scientific papers and therefore you don't comprehend what they have to say. The key is not to be locked into religious dogma but to understand religion's meaning: something you don't. You take as literal that which is not literal, which is exactly what your religious enemy does. Doing that will solve nothing. It just makes you them, but you can't possibly understand that. Very silly stuff.
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