The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 3, 2018 - 02:46pm PT

Globalization as the free flow of money, goods and people/workers...

To act wisely, you first have to see/recognize, to be aware, to understand. We live in a time where the way of seeing is in change and I think it is important in these times to speak truthfully... The idea of hiding ones perspective I think is a bad idea...

...leaving it all to money...

We're not primarily sellers... We were not born to hide our truthful meaning to sell something... I'm not here to win...
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 3, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
We're not primarily sellers...

Maybe you want to re-think that, because the other side seems to be pretty good at it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 3, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
When I speak truthfully I also say that it is primarily the Trumps of the world who ruin the earth, not ordinary people, you and me

Become a vegetarian or vegan, and then you can have a shred of moral high ground to make such a generalization.

Trump doesn't eat any more meat in his meals than the average American. Don't single out the "elite" for special condemnation until you've done everything you can do personally.

What I mostly see is the average American complaining about how "the elites" are "ruining the planet," so there just HAVE to be some laws to rein them in (of course, without touching the lifestyle of the average American). Everybody wants a law that will affect "the other guy," but the average American lifestyle, being heavily dependent upon cattle (and their byproducts) production, contributes hugely to the "ruination of the planet."

It's actually "the ordinary" people that are the big problem, because they contribute to the problem in large numbers.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 3, 2018 - 04:56pm PT
lol

Trump... Don't single out the "elite" ...

What made you think Trump signaled elite? when Trump actually signals liar, glutton, buffoon, jerk, narcissist.

lol

...

"the elites" are "ruining the planet"

Of course not, the elites include the experts, those with special skills and talents. The elites in this sense are saving our ass in too many ways currently to count.

The gluttons, the money grubbers, those with little sense of community or sharecraft are the culprits ruining the planet, ruining our chances. They are a far cry from the elites in my book.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 3, 2018 - 05:01pm PT
^^^ In typical fashion, you're reading me according to your own "take" rather than my actual context. I was responding to Marlow, not to you.

The context of definitions matters.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 3, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
Okay, perhaps I missed it. Where did Marlow call out Trump as an elite?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 3, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
Also, in above list of Trump identities, I forgot Dunning Kruger sufferer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 3, 2018 - 05:23pm PT
"I also say that it is primarily the Trumps of the world who ruin the earth..." -Marlow

Trump doesn't eat any more meat in his meals than the average American. Don't single out the "elite" for special condemnation... MB1

So perhaps I'm wrong. Who here besides MB1 conceives/perceives Trump as an elite?
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2018 - 05:26pm PT
HFCS = defiantly a Dunning–Kruger effect sufferer cluelessly masquerading as sane .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 3, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
WB, thankfully we've never climbed together. So unlike one or two others here I have no bias, zero bias, that stands in the way of my actual perception/judgement of you.

Your posts tell the tale.

Maybe next year, Duck, I'll once again respond to you directly.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2018 - 07:41pm PT
I would disagree and say instead that globalization in terms of a unified world is our only hope for a productive future.

A bureaucratic diktat operating on a global scale will save us from ourselves.

This "one world" collectivist thinking is truly one of the more genuinely perverse, adolescent, and unfortunately perennial idealisms amongst western intellectuals and casual idealists for many years now. I think that it resurfaces continually because of its kumbaya shallowness restricted to those who are almost incapable of graduating to a fully formed adult thinking about such issues, much less original thought.

A dystopian scenario often giving me nightmares is the possibility of a one world government ( an absolute contradiction in terms, I know) having come about as a result of a truly terrible round of inescapable bad luck for humanity.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 3, 2018 - 11:43pm PT
This "one world" collectivist thinking is truly one of the more genuinely perverse, adolescent, and unfortunately perennial idealisms amongst western intellectuals and casual idealists for many years now. I think that it resurfaces continually because of its kumbaya shallowness restricted to those who are almost incapable of graduating to a fully formed adult thinking about such issues, much less original thought.

What's truly perverse and adolescent is the rather pathetic libertarian blindness to the cruel reality that freedom is largely a function of population. As in, America started in a state of perfection (momentarily forgetting the stain of slavery) but opted for progress.

In an agrarian society in which plots are measured in hectares, tolerance for your neighbor’s proclivities is prodigious but when you share a condominium wall with your neighbor those tolerances diminish exponentially.

The world is in many places a condominium of sorts and globalism, not one world government, but rather a union of states that understands the effectively connected and complex nature of all nations and as well the imperative of cooperation for survival, is inevitable.

The failure of libertarianism is in its dependence on human moral insufficiency. The notion that we must depend on moral failure as an antidote to moral failure seems a bit of nonsense to me.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 4, 2018 - 02:01am PT

Okay, perhaps I missed it. Where did Marlow call out Trump as an elite?


HFCS got this right. There's nothing elite about Trump. Trump is a vulgar predatorial capitalist. In my view the non-vulgar predatorial capitalists are no better. A predatorial capitalistic etiquette master does not make the world better. They are only more difficult to see. In that way Trump is doing us a service, because he is easily seen...

Predatorial: The private accumulation of profit and lack of distribution of wealth to employees and society...

 Globalization seen as free flow of capital, goods and workers is one problem.
 One dollar, one vote and paid politicians is another.
 Privatization of health-care, basic education, energy and infrastructure is a third...
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Sep 4, 2018 - 07:01am PT
I go with Paul's idea that freedom is a function of population. I base this on living in Japan for 30 years where it's quite clear that their dense human population on islands with almost no natural resources, has dictated their highly cooperative, group oriented culture. By contrast, Americans have always had space and resources and could thus afford afford eccentric individualism. The problem now is that our population is growing and our resources shrinking, but our society and its ideals have not yet accommodated.

We seek to lead the world but are out of synch with that world. We can't even manage ourselves well anymore. We seek power through military might while the advancing countries of the world seek it through the economic power of a unified population. Our civilization is doomed to play second place especially to China, unless we invent a different system. It's very clear that the rapid rise of East Asia was the result of strong government planning and control, not libertarian individualism. Asian scholars know this, our leaders do not. China leads the world in solar panel production, our leaders talk about going back to coal. For all our technology, we lack a sense of vision for the future.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 4, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
When it comes to science, belief and best practices in modern thought and living, my three favorite podcasts in 2018 have been...

1. Mindscape, Sean Carroll
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/

2. Waking Up, Sam Harris
https://samharris.org/podcast/

3. Rationally Thinking, Julia Galef
http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/

Check out Galef's latest. Fantastic. In fact, it inspired this post. Two females (for a change), well spoken, and imo, well-oriented (iow, great attitudes), discussing human sexual stuff from an evolutionary psychology framework.

I'm old. Back in the 20th, e.g., 1980s, nothing like this was available. Just stating the obvious as means in the moment to showing my appreciation.

I think these podcasts are providing an invaluable public service.

Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.

...

A favorite of Sean Carroll (a physicist)...
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2018/07/16/episode-5-geoffrey-west-on-networks-scaling-and-the-pace-of-life/

Geoffrey West, experimental physicist, Santa Fe Institute
re: scale, networks, systems

...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

re: technological disruption (vs climate change or nuclear war)

"But with technological disruption, it's a far more complicated problem. Because we don't want to give up on the immense potential of AI and biological engineering. Also there is no agreement about what is the best outcome. Many of the projects that frighten some people get other people extremely excited. So here, at least intellectually, the problem is far far more difficult." -Harari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Vxvb7Nw9JCE
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2018 - 08:17pm PT
Ghandi was ultimately a fool.

He preached non violence.

The entire material creation requires and uses violence along with non violence.

Both are required for harmonious life.

Grandi was killed by violence. (Balance)

The surgeon creates violence against the material body to ultimately fix and heal it ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 5, 2018 - 07:26am PT
Marlow, I think a key, one key, to coming to terms with globalizing (globalization) is to recognize its multifarious, many-sided nature.

With some sides of it productive, useful. With others, problematic and in need of solution or management. Curious if you agree?

Harari, for eg, in above piece out just last night, addresses today's globalization that is underway (not just re economics, but re education, science, the Olympics and football, social media, etc etc), the need for some level of global governance (cf: global government), and nationalism vs transnationalism.

Without some level of global governance, how can we hope to manage so-called evolutionary arms racing re autonomous weaponry, for example?

"Globalization" and "globalism" are related but different. Right?

...

re: amythia
re: the power of story

Bari Weiss hits a home run...

"I want to talk about the power of story. Which is something that's a major theme of your new book. You make a strong case that we live in what you call the age of bewilderment. We live in an age in which all of the old stories and the old myths - religion, nationalism even liberalism and the notion of human rights have sort of collapsed. And there's no new story that's come along that's been compelling to replace them. So we need a new story. But you also sort of insist throughout the book that all stories are fictions, they're not true. They're not inherently true. Even the notion of individuality is a myth. So how can we go about building a new story if those are the preconditions? If it's all a construct, how do we have the wherewithal to construct something and get people to believe in it?" -Bari Weiss to Harari
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Sep 6, 2018 - 07:25am PT
^^^^^^

Geez, sounds terribly postmodern, doesn't it? Yikes.

(Worry, worry. What to do, what to do, what to do?)
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2018 - 09:07am PT
So we need a new story

Lol ...... Just as I've been saying for years..

These guys gross materialists, atheists are the guys making up all the horsesh!t all along and
are the obstructionists to everything that holds the actual truth.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 8, 2018 - 01:13am PT

The bottom line is that many of these big companies have "market power," the ability to raise prices in spite of competition and weak economies. Instead of the competition keeping prices low companies collude to keep the prices high, even raising them. They may not have to pay the corporate taxes to the government but can charge you for them as if they had. They are allowed to charge you $35.00 for overdrafts even though it costs them less than a penny to make the adjustment. They can create their own oligopolies over municipalities, counties, states, even regions. Companies that offer enormous sums to buy the local power or water company will make it up in increased charges even if they cannot justify them. They are able to do this because they lobby and contribute to politicians who appoint industry friendly candidates to regulatory agencies, allow add-on costs, such as surcharges equipment or services that don't exist, and company threats to move out of town or the state unless they are forgiven state taxes for years or even decades.

One of the more insidious breaches of consumer rights is arbitration, once only used in contracts between companies. They are in the contracts you make when buying a car, getting a home equity loan, or the franchise you buy. It keeps you from suing. To make things worse, you must submit to arbitration on the home turf of the company or bank even if it means it's across the country before an arbitrator they have probably used many times before, and to whom you must pay a heafty percentage if he or she rules in your favor.

While these companies market themselves as restrained by regulation, they in fact make regulation work in their behalf. With government sanction and blessing, they have made the consumer pay more for every conceivable service, real or imagined. They are not interested in an unfettered free market because their prices would have to come down, and they are only interested in maintaining their "pricing," a euphemism for profit.
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