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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Werner,
I can’t say What Is. At best, I try to report perceptions.
“Failing” is worth considering. There really can’t be anything as “failing” from what I can see.
There also doesn’t seem to be a need or a possibility of “escaping.” From what? :-D
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WBraun
climber
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escaping.” From what?
From the conditioning of materialism especially the consciousness of gross physical consciousness.
Since we are NOT material but spiritual entities part parcel of the whole .......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Werner: [Escape] From the conditioning of materialism especially the consciousness of gross physical consciousness.
You can of course claim that an escape is what’s going on with the rising of greater awareness. But that seems to be a way of talking. Do people escape algebra to get to calculus? Do they escape from nursery rhymes to sonnets? From dating to marriage? Does more adept spiritual understanding obviate primitive sacred understanding? Is samsara over here and nirvana over there? Is there is a bad or poor consciousness, and is there a good or great consciousness? Can one leave and move from one consciousness to another? (All of these things are funny things to say.)
It’s difficult to imagine how mind can escape itself or how consciousness can get outside of itself. I think I get what you’re going for, but language-wise, it tends to suggest that there are good and bad things in the world, that folks have the power and capability to do what they want through an exercise of free will, and that the world is a world of dualities. I see none of it.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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I mis-spoke.
I see little of it.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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DMT, you’re a class act.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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DMT,
:-)
I'd say Mark's right, BTW. You're a rough-hewn gentleman.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 17, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
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The issue of dualities, inner and outer, objective and subjective, emptiness and form, the one and the many, and all the rest, are all interesting because you can build a world view from either vantage.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Apr 17, 2018 - 02:12pm PT
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"I believe it is very likely that men, if they ever should lose their ability to wonder
and thus cease to ask unanswerable questions, also will lose the faculty of asking the answerable questions upon which every civilization is founded."
-Hannah Arendt
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 17, 2018 - 03:21pm PT
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That's how I see it, Dingus. But our thinking minds tell us that this thing exists separate from that thing. That's the rub, how we digitize reality, and build it in our minds, ground up. It works, too.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
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But our thinking minds tell us that this thing exists separate from that thing
Even if my thinking mind is asleep, my car is not my refrigerator.
However, they are connected through space/time.
Beyond that, the ashram awaits.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
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But our thinking minds tell us that this thing exists separate from that thing.
It's really simultaneously oneness AND difference ......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 17, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
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jogill: Even if my thinking mind is asleep, my car is not my refrigerator.
This is speculation.
You’ve given names to certain phenomena, and those names are shared among community. Those names include or infer certain theories and their constructs, the latter which look like “facts” to most people. That approach works--for just about everyone who isn’t looking professionally. What do they say? Professionals will always provide a loop-hole in their answers to the question of: “What is what?” At the civilian-level of knowledge, however, there is a great deal of agreement with regards to just about everything.
“Cars,” “refrigerators,” “mind,” and even “thinking” present in everyday life little-stick-figures of a reality that cannot be articulated.
We’re just talking.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Apr 17, 2018 - 08:32pm PT
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“Even if my thinking mind is asleep, my car is not my refrigerator.“
~ John Gill
“This is speculation.”
~ MikeL
Wow. You must get really bored.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
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Professionals will always provide a loop-hole in their answers to the question of: “What is what?”
How true. To be perfectly honest, when I would spend much of the summer sixty years ago as a climber my car was my refrigerator.
Thanks for the clarity.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Apr 20, 2018 - 10:54am PT
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Progress. Enlightenment. Correction.
Hooray Maajid Nawaz! Aayan Hirsi Ali!
Southern Poverty Law Center Quietly Deleted List of ‘Anti-Muslim’ Extremists After Legal Threat...
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/southern-poverty-law-center-removes-extremist-list-after-legal-threat/
"Quiety." lol
Nawaz — informed by his experience as a former member of a global terror organization and a political prisoner in Egypt — routinely criticizes the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam that gives rise to terrorism. As a result of that work, the SPLC and a coalition of partner organizations that helped create the list accused him of “savaging Islam.”
Maajid Nawaz, Joe Rogan...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGdPcC0zBIQ&t=5s
...
If we're going to have algorithms and data bases in the future ever and ever more controlling our lives (Harari) then we better double triple our efforts to ensure they are valid and accurate. (Eh SPLC?)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
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"I believe it is very likely that men, if they ever should lose their ability to wonder
and thus cease to ask unanswerable questions, also will lose the faculty of asking the answerable questions upon which every civilization is founded."
-Hannah Arendt
Arendt has analyzed "answerable" and "unanswerable" questions, especially in association with the "ability to wonder"? or, perhaps, the quote merely states an opinion.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 21, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
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Mark: Wow. You must get really bored.
Gosh, Mark, so sorry. I really had you improperly pegged (as if that is ever a good idea). (I thought you had some similar experiences in this stuff.) It doesn’t work that way at all. It’s been a huge experience for me to look for quietude in all forms. (Bigger than the Grand Canyon.)
Cheers.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 21, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
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HFCS: . . . ‘Anti-Muslim’ Extremists. . .
I've been reading about some old religions, and it's noteworthy that Muslims persecuted and invaded parts of old Eur-Asia repeatedly. There appeared to be no room for different views. Scholars lament. (But they're always lamenting about something or another.) 'Tis too bad, though. Some of those rather old religions seem to have been on-to some things.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Apr 28, 2018 - 08:04am PT
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In the past, I enjoyed a couple analogies here at ST riffing off of PaulR's posts. Most recently I think one was re: belief (religion), communications (telegraph) and transportation (horse n buggy).
Here's Jordan Peterson...
"If you think you are an atheist you are wrong, because your mind has been bent and shaped and molded by a god-fearing past stretching back into the unfathomable abysm of time." -Jordan Peterson
Analogizing, riffing...
If you think you do not have to eat insects to survive you are wrong, because your mind has been bent and shaped and molded by an insect-eating past stretching back into the unfathomable abysm of time.
lol
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