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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Article in the Daily Beast today: "Just How Toxic is Richard Dawkins." All sounds vaguely familiar, don't you think? Suggest reading the whole article,
"But to dogmatically insist—as Dawkins tends to—that any form of religion is always idiotic, inherently violent, and almost infantile in its intellectual construction, is to laugh in the face of human civilization and history. It’s also to ignore a very important trait of human beings: empathy. I once watched an Irish TV show where a woman explained to Dawkins that the notion of a God gave her comfort when a member of her family died. Dawkins looked at her directly, and said, “That is fine, but I’m afraid it’s simply not true.”
I think he misses the point religion may play for some people.
In Wired For Culture, evolutionary biologist Mark Pagel argues that religious memes, historically, have helped humans to survive, cooperate, and prosper. Crucially, though, Pagel does not insist on the need to believe that the ideas contained within religions are necessarily true to be beneficial to human culture.
Similarly, Jared Diamond—a fellow scientist and atheist for whom Dawkins has enormous respect—in +The World Until Yesterday, states, “If religion didn’t bring some real benefits to offset those opportunity costs, any atheistic society that by chance arose would be likely to outcompete religious societies and take over the world. [Religion] must have functions and bring benefits, [otherwise] it wouldn’t have come into being and couldn’t be maintained.”
Even the outspoken atheist, philosopher, neuroscientist, and promoter of all things secular, Sam Harris—who regards Dawkins as his intellectual hero—claims few scientists and philosophers have developed strong skills of introspection.
Harris also insists that there is a connection between scientific fact and spiritual wisdom, and that it is more direct than most people suppose."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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click bait...
"Just How Toxic is Richard Dawkins."
No one in the work disagrees with the basic principles: (1) religion wouldn't have existed historically, and wouldn't exist presently, if it didn't confer advantages. (2) Religion (esp Abrahamic religion) as practiced traditionally is outdated and needs overhauling given modern understanding. (3) Means to modernization is via many and diverse strategies. This includes a variety of roles in personal leadership (incl Dawkins).
It's ovah for jehovah.
Only those in the rear don't see it.
Modernization will mean higher performance in human functioning. Modernization (of belief) will mean what our civilization has sought for a long time: greater wisdom (as part of higher performance).
So chin up.
If you're going to be sad, be sad that we live in this transitional time and not 100 years from now. That's my struggle.
As Sam Harris said to Dave Rubin: (paraphrasing) We have to get out of this game (this gig) of defining ourselves tribally based on imaginary fictitious ideas.
Great news: Millions are getting out of it every passing day.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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It's ovah for jehovah.
Resist the simplistic summing up.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Don't like simple poetry this morning?
Too bad.
mh2 is an enabler.
He thinks it's "good policy" to be open to absolutely everything
and to be 100 per cent nonconfrontational 24/7.
mh2 is a grade A enabler.
This is my work (innovation of belief systems) and he's a perennial thorn in my side, second only to dipsht.
Sorry if truth is disruptive; sorry if it hurts.
When innovation comes to belief systems and higher performance comes to human functioning as this century ensues (due t innovations across all domains) it won't be due to the mh2s or mikels of this world who stand, no correction, sit, on the sidelines.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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religion wouldn't have existed historically, and wouldn't exist presently, if it didn't confer advantages
many things exist that do not convey an advantage...
nothing exists (persists in the gene pool) if it conveys a disadvantage that is not correlated with an countervailing advantage...
the time of modern religions are all recent... certainly less than a few hundred generations... if you want to talk about "evolutionary" rationals for modern religions then you'll have to wait a bit.
as I've stated previously, it is possible that modern human intelligence is the result of sexual selection, and not natural selection. but in any case, the absence of human intelligence traits among living species seems to indicate that it is not necessary for survival.
these evolutionary ways of looking at things have to be done in a statistical sense, and over long time periods...
religion may be a by-product of intelligence, it certainly frames a number of questions in anthropocentric terms, in large part, modern religions seek to understand how the universe comes to be as it would have been "built" by a human intelligence (as the delicious inversion "And God made man in his own image" betrays)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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many things exist that do not convey an advantage...
Agree.
the time of modern religions are all recent... certainly less than a few hundred generations... if you want to talk about "evolutionary" rationals for modern religions then you'll have to wait a bit.
What? This flies in the face of evolutionary theory regarding religious systems.
I'll assume misunderstanding or miscommunications somewhere.
Modern religious systems have their roots in ancient religious systems.
You can speculate, you can hypothesize, you don't "have to wait". You can develop very plausible models based on general evolutionary theory, (memes, eg, etc.) and reason.
But as I said I'll assume miscom or misund somewhere.
Nonetheless it is clear to everyone in the biz that our "modern" religious systems evolved. And they've done so over countless generations (Ed's "few hundred generations").
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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I've been resisting the desire to join into the fray here with my anarchistic drivel, but the Abrahamic religions which favor the male of the species, would be short lived if the females of our species decided to fully weld their power, power which lies seething and lurking in the undercurrents of the present monotheistic power structures abroad. With change comes crisis, so we might expect the same from the simmering bubbling tidewaters of a repressed feminist backlash burbling at the steps of the halls of power in this country. Delilah would cut off a sleeping Sampson's balls instead of his hair if the men of power continue to spiral so arrogantly out of control.
Who would blame her?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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HFCS: When innovation comes to belief systems and higher performance comes to human functioning as this century ensues (due t innovations across all domains) it won't be due to the mh2s or mikels of this world who stand, no correction, sit, on the sidelines.
All belief systems are inherently innovative. All are creations. They are all dynamically developing, shifting, evolving.
Yet, all of those belief systems’ seemingness occurs within one single reality. There appears to be a lot of apparent movement, but only within One Thing that is itself—boundless, indescribable, undefinable. There appears to be all of that movement, but within One Basic Fact that never departs from itself or can get outside of itself.
The exercise of intelligence, interest, artfulness, creativity, and even personal preference are simply expressions of personal inclinations of What This Is. You are an expression of reality. From your view you see no movement. You do so (I’d say) by selecting and then perceiving a few things from a great swirling soup of energy flows. It’s a false perspective. It’s a human perspective based upon a consensus reality. It is a form of naive realism.
You and others seem to think that in order to be a participant in What This Is, a person needs to intentionally DO something.
I’d suggest that “being” might be far more influential than “doing.” One with a strong sense of “being” is often magnetic. “Being” can act like a north star, around which all other stars revolve.
In the end, nothing needs to be done, there is no where that one needs to go. In fact, I see, nothing is really moving. It just looks that way, the same way that “people” seem to be moving around on the surface of my TV screen.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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No one in the work disagrees with the basic principles: (1) religion wouldn't have existed historically, and wouldn't exist presently, if it didn't confer advantages. (2) Religion (esp Abrahamic religion) as practiced traditionally is outdated and needs overhauling given modern understanding. (3) Means to modernization is via many and diverse strategies. This includes a variety of roles in personal leadership (incl Dawkins).
I’ve always said on this thread that religion or mythology must submit to the nature knowledge of a culture.
But it isn’t ovah for anybody.
God is the most ubiquitous metaphor on the planet and he didn’t get there because he serves no purpose or because he’s simply a lie.
Better you ask what is the psychological meaning of deity as metaphor: what does God mean?
What do all the virgin births mean? What does the story of Jonah mean? Orpheus, Mithras, Zeus, Athena… what does Christ on the cross mean or Buddha touching the earth or the point where the transept crosses the nave or the passage of light into a Gothic Cathedral or the center of a Tibetan mandala?
The great metaphors of religion and mythology are manifestations of the human psyche created not out of fear but for the purpose of consolation. These metaphors can and do function for billions of human beings throughout the world. Even in a world encapsulated in reason and logic and mathematics they still have a function if you’d simply understand what they really are.
Dismissing them as simply untrue is blindness predicated on a mistaken certainty. I think science can do better.
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Norton
Social climber
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Paul,
particularly over the past say 100 years or so the advances and discoveries in science including overwhelming fossil evidence of human evolution has, if nothing else,
at least provided an alternative view of where we came from and that the human creation of religion is no longer "necessary" to provide both consolation and hope for humans as it did in our past
when the crop was destroyed by lightening and burying your two year old upside down alive by your door upon the direction of your local Shaman stopped the next year's crop failure then that was the proof that gods existed and could be placated
but we now know simple understanding of nature, proven with science, have educated most of the population that yesterday's gods and shamans were both wrong and inflicted horrible and needless suffering but also the idea of their very existence was called into question
Paul, I am unsure exactly where you come from with some of your posts, most of the time I interpret that you do indeed believe in gods, etherial spirits of some sort if you will, and that you feel their relevance is still needed to help answer modern questions
tell me I got it all wrong?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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One of the biggest problems of this debate is that many sciene types assume that everyone wants to be rational 100% of the time and therefore can't understand if many religious beliefs are outmoded or irrational, why all of religion is not discarded.
Beliefs are but one function of religion and beliefs about the creation of the universe and human beings are a subset of that function. People attend to religion not just because the beliefs are comforting, but because of social and cultural support systems as well. In most churches (not all), you will meet a lot of nice people who are willing to go out of their way to help you. When political and economic institutions fail, religion and religious people are still there.
Religion is the center of art and humanities in many communities, particularly for isolated rural dwellers, minorities, the elderly, and the otherwise marginalized.
For those people in our country who are not enamored of a life focussed on commercialism and who want to behave more ethically than the average me firster, church is a good place to meet fellow thinkers.
Not everyone has the benefit of an intellectually or ethically stimulating career to distract them from the ugliness of much of human life.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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but we now know simple understanding of nature, proven with science, have educated most of the population that yesterday's gods and shamans were both wrong and inflicted horrible and needless suffering but also the idea of their very existence was called into question
If shamans did nothing but inflict suffering they would lose their jobs quickly. In all of human history, what is the primary source of needless and horrible suffering if not existence itself and what is the shamans job but to console us of that fact.
Religion has always existed as an antidote/consolation for what is the very nature of conscious being. Existence/nature is cruel, loss and pain are our lot and we're all headed for the grand egress, having a shaman around might not be so bad.
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WBraun
climber
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proven with science, have educated most of the population that yesterday's gods and shamans were both wrong and inflicted horrible
100% pure scientism and arrogant made up fools absolutes.
Science has never proved there is no God but science has always proved the God exists .....
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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The great metaphors of religion and mythology are manifestations of the human psyche created not out of fear but for the purpose of consolation.
I like this...mostly. Religion as a figurative representation of the permutations of our psyche is useful for modeling our ethics, morals, character, qualities, yearnings, dreams, goals, and civil nature. The stories within religious texts and myths can appeal to and help us develop our wiser, kinder, and more civil natures.
For instance, my 5 and 7 year old grandsons know about the myth of Daedalus and Icarus as a caution against the pitfalls of hubris.
So, I would say the metaphors of religion and mythology serve for far more than consolation. Actually, for me, anyway, the consolation arguement has little gravity.
These metaphors can and do function for billions of human beings throughout the world.
The question is how well do they function? What is their function for? Much of organized religion has a strong subtext of control and power behind the branding to the masses.
I argue that the deeper value of religious texts comes from reading them as figurative and distinctly not literal. Reading the major religious texts as figurative stories and myths has been an incredibly rewarding study personally.
Reading only the "red print" from the new testament with the perspective that Jesus is speaking as a mystic is a very interesting and rewarding exercise. Note: I have always found it interesting that so many christians focus so much on the old testament (known in some circles as the torah) when jesus said he had come go give a new testament.
It is interesting how Jesus's edicts for our actions and ethics sound so similar to the Dalai Lama who has recently stated that we should consider abandoning religion for a common secular ethic built around the value of kindness.
Even in a world encapsulated in reason and logic and mathematics they still have a function if you’d simply understand what they really are.
It appears that members of both the religious and science camps commonly have trouble distnguishing the literal from the figurative. Is humanness more than logic and reason? I believe so. The scientists I know and have read, have greatest respect for and believe are the deeper thinkers of that species believe so.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Better you ask what is the psychological meaning of deity as metaphor: what does God mean?
In my own view, God is that mysterious powerful influence that helps us in our great need.
When I take long walks on my own the weather may turn bad, I start to get cold, darkness comes on, I might twist an ankle far from any help. In loneliness and desperation I feel ready to ask for help from anywhere, from God, from spirits, from magic, from Mommy or Daddy, anyone or anything. What is strange is the feeling that help will come. I actually expect a rescue even though I know it isn't coming.
Looking at the psychology of it, it appears that the truth is too grim and I look for hope.
However, another probable source of that hope is the early years of my life when rescue and comfort were provided by all-powerful beings: Mom and Dad. The feeling that help will come has a deep-rooted basis in fact, but the feelings from the mind of the child persist while the facts become vague or were never that clear to the child mind to begin with.
I think these feelings about aid from powerful beings are a fertile foundation for religions to build on.
Nowadays I have faith in the SOS button on my gizmo that asks for help via satellite. Faith that may be misplaced.
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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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If shamans did nothing but inflict suffering they would lose their jobs quickly.
Ah, the venerable shamans. Doped up on reindeer piss and ready at any moment to absolutely blow your mind. The least productive members of the tribe, typically. But it's true, they managed to keep their jobs for a long time - principally because no one had any better answers to the big existential questions and crises. Better for the group to let the dreamers dream for everyone else.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Ah, the venerable shamans. Doped up on reindeer piss and ready at any moment to absolutely blow your mind. The least productive members of the tribe, typically. But it's true, they managed to keep their jobs for a long time - principally because no one had any better answers to the big existential questions and crises. Better for the group to let the dreamers dream for everyone else.
Would love to hear the "better" answers to the existential questions. What is it we know now that allows us a more consoling sense of reality and our place in it, through science of course raindeer piss aside.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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What the shamans at their best stimulated is the ability of a person to heal by themselves. This is the most natural and usual way to heal. The placebo effect is another name for a way of stimulating selfhealing. The best doctors know this and are good "shamans". Today they also have effective medical treatments for many diseases that the shamans could not heal. There are also times when strong drugs are not well chosen and harm or kill the pasient. There is a name for diseases caused by medical treatment - iatrogenic diseases.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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How is a disease an existential question?
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