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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan, thanks for the reply.
(1) Humor me,
What was the point about the oncologist?
(2) You say you're an evolutionist but I don't think you accept (a) the evolution of minds or (b) the evolution of feelings.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
(3) Do you (feel it's important to) distinguish between materialist in the context of science (re: atoms and molecules, causation, etc.) and (b) materialist in the context of economics, capitalism and consumerism (re: greed, wealth-building, fancy cars, etc.).
I'm just trying to clear the air. Good, please don't take it as insulting just clarifying or challenging in the interest of better understanding and dare I say it higher wisdom.
I appreciate the reply.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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JR, I don't know about CRISPR-Cas9 system.
I'll have to research it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR
Thanks for the heads up, sounds like something (a) exciting and (b) I should know about at least in passing.
I'll get on it.
In fact I'm only about a tenth the way through that edge list.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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1) About Oncologists, I thought your point was a good one until it got a little muddled to me at least because of the pronoun usage. Most oncologists are he’s so when you used she (trying to be politically correct or just nice I assume) I thought at first you were referring to me and then the two sentences together didn’t make sense. I get it now.
That said, I don’t think you practice what you’re preaching there however. It seems to me you are always trying to recruit more oncologists as it were.
2) As for cultural evolution, the archaeological record make it quite clear that it occurred in everything from art to technology. Social evolution is evident in our own lives when we read something and are repulsed by it, asking ourselves, how on earth can can people think like that and then realizing that yes, despite our faults, the West has moved a long way beyond medieval thinking.
In archaeology and cultural evolution, we talk about some systems being more energy efficient than others. In cultural anthropology we talk about the beauty of each system in relationship to survival in a particular environment. I personally don’t see religion as the major problem in the middle east but rather, an inefficient and archaic social and cultural system combined with rapid demographic growth which is unsuited to the modern world. The very beliefs and attributes that served them well in a harsh environment before the discovery of oil, are failing them now. People falling back on radical religion just shows the bankruptcy of any other ideas around.
What bothers me more than the crazy religious ideas being perpetuated however, is the very cynical manipulation of those ideas for their own political ends, by the Saudi ruling family who are our supposed allies and our government's convenient blindness to that. You want to call out religion; I would like to call out the house of Saud.
Bringing it closer to home, one of the main ways of breaking the power of petro dollars is to develop our own energy resources. However, I am not a fan of fracking all over the place so I realize I am guilty of my own contradictions there. History has a way of overtaking theorists however, and the ongoing conflict between Saudia Arabia and Iran over a 1,300 religious difference may force us to rely on ourselves sooner rather than later, and to our own good. If it weren't for the oil, would we care what they believed and whether or not they were fighting among themselves about it?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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I can see that you're on a roll, HFCS.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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And I'm enabling him again. :)
Hopefully we're not yet co-dependent.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.
(I think I spit out my teeth on that one!)
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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MF: You weren't really talking about the zen principle? Got me!
No, I was, Mark.
Anyone can see emptiness in anything, in everything, in nothing itself. (Even emptiness is empty, Mark.) “Mu.” It’s not difficult to understand once you use all of your faculties and pay attention.
The world that rises in front of one appears to be a spontaneously arising display from an infinite energy source that is infinitely creative. One can get a glimpse of it in any moment if one avoids labelling, categorizing, bracketing, and conceptualizing it. (The opportunity is an actuality, because there’s absolutely nothing whatsoever else going on.) All those apparent “things” that seem to be in front of one (to include one’s own feelings and thoughts) are the very same unified field. Even “you.” That is, as much as one see things in front of one, the perceived self is the same very display. (It’s a grand play on a stage of infinite dimensions.)
As Jed McKenna (spiritual iconoclast and jokester) has written: there’s nothing to learn, there’s nothing to do, there’s no where to go, there’s nothing to be. All of that is only contributing to the confusion of delusion. Instead, one commits personal seppuku by deprogramming themselves from all the beliefs that one holds. That includes every precept, term, and concept from religion and spiritual practice. Burn everything to the ground. Self-immolation.
I think the longer one gets into these waters, the more one realizes that no teacher can give him or her any answers that will help him or her out of their own self-deluded reality. There is no question to ask, and there are no answers anyway because there is nothing that can be fully and accurately articulated. (I mean, what can one say about complete Unity?) There is nothing my teacher can give me other than his company. It would seem that it’s all up to me, except that there’s nothing I (MikeL) can do about it. Things just happen when they happen. There is no explanation. There are no practices. There’s no faith to keep. Noticing What This Is just seems to show up the more that one lets go and dies a million little deaths.
Be well.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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There is no question to ask, and there are no answers anyway because there is nothing that can be fully and accurately articulated. (I mean, what can one say about complete Unity?)
Well we experience unity when we go to Starbucks. But complete unity, that's an awful lot of info to obtain and our pint sized brains don't seem to be up to the task. That's where I think "understanding" trumps truths. IE, I have an understanding of this iPhone without knowing all the truths. But stacking up truths is what bring on a better understanding. Now you may saw hogwash to understanding, and maybe even truths? But it is understanding that gets us to Starbucks.
We all work harmoniously when we share understanding's. But when something goes wrong, we want to question each other's truth's. This is when I think questions become apparent. Sure, alone there's no need for questioning. But if your to have a take on where from you come, wherefore you go, and whyfore your here, you'll beg to question.
So let us resume to the question, "what can one say about complete unity?" Hmmm, complete unity? Where did everything I sense, and beyond come from? Where is everything I sense and beyond going? What is everything I sense and beyond doing right now?
This indubitably beckons the question, "What would be your understanding of unity?"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Hey Blue, now you're really in the swing of things here.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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8^D I blame it on Shakespeare ; )
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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The Japanese principle Mu was borrowed from Taoism (Chinese Wu). It is usually associated with the principle of Wu Wei (no action) or Wei Wu Wei (action without action).
from chapter 2 of the Tao Te Ching
Chapter 2
When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises
When it knows good as good, evil arises
Thus being and non-being produce each other
Difficult and easy bring about each other
Long and short reveal each other
High and low support each other
Music and voice harmonize each other
Front and back follow each other
Therefore the sages:
Manage the work of detached actions
Conduct the teaching of no words
They work with myriad things but do not control
They create but do not possess
They act but do not presume
They succeed but do not dwell on success
It is because they do not dwell on success
That it never goes away
This represents naturalness rather than nothing. Wu/Mu here is a state of potential akin to the implicate order of Bohm.
Practicing Wu Wei will, hopefully, lead to Pu, a state of clear perception without prejudice. Pu is not a state where one is no longer aware of duality and the many things (religion, philosophy, science, language, material attachments, etc.) but is conscious of their limitations and utility.
MikeL, you have nihilified Mu by attaching meaning unatural to it.
Some of your post reminded me of this -
“there is nothing outside of yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter. Everything is within. Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself.”
~ Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
It would seem that it’s all up to me, except that there’s nothing I (MikeL) can do about it.
A story for you...
The Boy and the Starfish
A man was walking along a deserted beach at sunset. As he walked he could see a young boy in the distance, as he drew nearer he noticed that the boy kept bending down, picking something up and throwing it into the water.
Time and again he kept hurling things into the ocean.
As the man approached even closer, he was able to see that the boy was picking up starfish that had been washed up on the beach and, one at a time he was throwing them back into the water.
The man asked the boy what he was doing, the boy replied,"I am throwing these washed up starfish back into the ocean, or else they will die through lack of oxygen. "But", said the man, "You can't possibly save them all, there are thousands on this beach, and this must be happening on hundreds of beaches along the coast. You can't possibly make a difference."
The boy looked down, frowning for a moment; then bent down to pick up another starfish, smiling as he threw it back into the sea. He replied,
"I made a huge difference to that one!"
~Author Unknown~
Things just happen when they happen.
There's this thing called cause and effect....
Note for anyone interested in the Tao Te Ching - I've been reading the Tao Te Ching for over 40 years and by far the best translation, IMHO, is by Ralph Alan Dale.
MikeL, Thanks for sharing the satsang video. A delightful kindness.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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^^^^indeed!
Seems like there used to be a culture among scientists to also explore philosophy, comparative religion, the arts. Is this true? If yes, does this culture still exist?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Not like it did in the 1960's.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Ed seems fairly well rounded:) actually all the ones around here are :D
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mark F,
Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the principles behind the eastern beliefs. It goes a long way.
If you had a year to waste, you could read this thread along with the entire What Is Mind thread, and never find a clear explanation from Largo or his contingent on anything.
All we hear are metaphors. This thread has a pretty nice IQ level, so I don't think it would shock any of us if those guys used words like shakra and explained them.
Sorry, but dancing around the topics has always been a pet peeve of mine. I can be way too verbose, but only because I am trying to explain something, and Largo's posts can be fairly long as well.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Not like it did in the 1960's
Oh, I don't know. I have quite a few more books on religion than I have books about evolution. I'm not special.
It is an important field of study, even if it is all absolutely wrong. To understand people, which is more up Jan's alley than mine, I think that you need to understand comparative religion.
The Bible is a reasonably quick read, as is the Koran. Of course theologians bicker endlessly over the meaning of a certain sentence, it is fairly easy to get a feel for at least the Abrahamic religions.
I was hanging out at a remote cabin a few years ago, and had several books on Buddhism that I intended to read. Instead, I chopped wood damn near the whole time. The wood probably did me better. I had been overworked.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Standard fare in political and social philosophy courses: Book of Tao, The Upanishads, The Communist Manifesto, and The Little Red Book (Mao).
classical Chinese, Sanskrit, German and modern Chinese... impressive reading of primary documents....
I could only manage the German... Debbie did get the other three however, she's the only reason I appear to be "well rounded"
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Reading primary sources in their entirety is well worth the time put in
During my initial German course at GaTech I tried to read the three ultimate problems of the alps in german, but didn't make it a quarter of the way through before flaming out. I never read the English translation because I knew I would miss so much. I need to bone up on ancient Greek and return to Aristotle to see how sadly English botches up his philosophy.
Thank you, Sycorax, for reminding us of our failings . . .
So sad.
;>(
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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And now Ed is thinking like an anthropologist.
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