The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 16, 2015 - 11:17am PT
Well I just checked out amino acids and nucleotides on Wiki and you're right fructose, trying to sort through all that is more than I'm interested in. Plus, every illustration of DNA in our textbooks shows the double helix with the ACGT on it. If they ask what is the ACGT and I say nucleotides and they ask what's that, we're off into a digression that glazes the eyes of 99% of the class. I guess I could say they're something called nuclotides, that are composed of smaller parts like amino acids (they're all familiar with that word from the gym and training), and if they want to know the details, take a biology class?

This is after all, the last half hour of a three hour lecture, one of 16 in the class. I'm one of the few instuctors of biological anthropology in the social science department who even deals with DNA at all, and I mostly do it in the context of the dispersal of H. sapiens out of Africa and how we can tell that. This class is one of those odd hybrid classes that some have thought should be in the biology departent instead, but then even fewer students would have exposure to evolution
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 16, 2015 - 11:23am PT

The central dogma of molecular biology: DNA makes RNA makes Protein

DNA is a reference for proteins*, which are the functional molecules in cells. These are comprised of 20 unique amino acids, and each is coded for by a stretch of DNA known as a codon. Codons are always 3 base-pairs (nucleotides) in length.

DNA is made of 4 unique nucleotides; (A)denine, (G)uanine, (C)ytosine and (T)hymine. This means that there are 64 unique codons that can be made with these 4 bases (4*4*4).

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 16, 2015 - 11:28am PT
Maybe Ed can shed some light on this guy and his theories:

Ilya Prigogine.

In his 1996 book, La Fin des certitudes, co-authored by Isabelle Stengers and published in English in 1997 as The End of Certainty: time, chaos, and the new laws of nature, Prigogine contends that determinism is no longer a viable scientific belief. "The more we know about our universe, the more difficult it becomes to believe in determinism." This is a major departure from the approach of Newton, Einstein and Schrödinger, all of whom expressed their theories in terms of deterministic equations. According to Prigogine, determinism loses its explanatory power in the face of irreversibility and instability.
(from Wiki)

Some heavy stuff that I don't fully understand but it relates to the current conversation.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 16, 2015 - 11:36am PT
Thanks Marlowe and Moosedrool! That's the kind of explanation I like and can use.

Next question. It was amino acids found on the rocks rather than the nucleotides, right?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 16, 2015 - 11:36am PT

Ilya Prigogine

The Nobel committee noted the importance of irreversibility in living systems, and pointed out the work of Lars Onsager on nonlinear thermodynamics, years before Prigogine.

Classical thermodynamics has played a dominant role in the development of modern science and technology. In suffers, however, from certain limitations, as it cannot be used for the study of irreversible processes but only for reversible processes and transitions between different states of equilibrium.

Many of the most important and interesting processes in Nature are irreversible. A good example is provided by living organisms which consume chemical energy in the form of nutrients, perform work and excrete waste as well as give off heat to the surroundings without themselves undergoing changes; they represent what is called a stationary or steady state. The boiling of an egg provides another example, and still another one is, a thermocouple with a cold and a hot junction connected to an electrical measuring instrument.

The Onsager "reciprocity relations" and minimum entropy production

The first investigator who developed a method for the exact treatment of such problems, for example of the thermocouple, was Onsager who received the 1968 Nobel Prize for this contribution. His approach was, however based on assumptions which in principle make it applicable only to systems close to equilibrium.

The great contribution of Prigogine to thermodynamic theory in his successful extension of it to systems which are far from thermodynamic equilibrium. This is extremely interesting as large differences compared to conditions close to equilibrium had to be expected. Prigogine has demonstrated that a new form of ordered structures can exist under such conditions, and he has given them the name ''dissipative structures" to stress that they only exist in conjunction with their environment.

The most well-known dissipative structure is perhaps the so-called Benárd instability. This is formed when a layer of liquid is heated from below. At a given temperature heat conduction starts to occur predominantly through convection, and it can be observed that regularly spaced, hexagonal convection cells are formed in the layer of liquid. This structure is wholly dependent on the supply of heat and disappears when this ceases.

Quite generally it is possible in principle to distinguish between two types of structures: equilibrium structures, which can exist as isolated systems (for example crystals), and dissipative structures, which can only exist in symbiosis with their surroundings. Dissipative structures display two types of behaviour: close to equilibrium their order tends to be destroyed but far from equilibrium order can be maintained and new structures be formed.

The probability for order to arise from disorder is infinitesimal according to the laws of chance. The formation of ordered, dissipative systems demonstrates, however, that it is possible to create order from disorder. The description of these structures have led to many fundamental discoveries and applications in diverse fields of human endeavour, not only in chemistry. In the last few years applications in biology have been dominating but the theory of dissipative structures has also been used to describe phenomena in social-systems.

(Press Release on the 1977 Nobel Prize )

Classical thermodynamics, by contrast with nonlinear thermodynamics, can only be used for the study of reversible processes and systems in or near thermal equilibrium. Prigogine's "dissipative" systems, today more commonly known as complex systems, could be described as "self-organizing," a property that "emergentists" said was a basic property of life, one that could not be explained by "reductionist science.

Prigogine became very popular with "holists" and "vitalists" who were looking for new laws of nature.

Prigogine was a major member of the Brussels School of thermodynamics. The Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico is devoted to the study of complex systems in the natural sciences and the social sciences.

Prigogine is perhaps the most famous name in chaos theory and complexity theory. Although he made very few original contributions to these fields, he is famous for them, nevertheless. His work (especially his 1984 book written with Isabel Stengers, Order Out Of Chaos) is a major reference today for popular concepts like "self-organizing, "complex systems," "bifurcation points," "non-linearity,", "attractors," "symmetry breaking," "morphogenesis," "autocatalytic," "constraint," and of course "irreversibility," although none of these terms is originally Prigogine's. The name "dissipative structures" and perhaps the phrase "far from equilibrium" belong to Prigogine, but the thermodynamic concepts were already in Boltzmann, Bertalanffy, and Schrödinger, and perhaps many others.

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Sep 16, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
DMT:

Let me try this: take any bit of matter we encounter, any bit whatsoever. Its manifestation, the fact it exists at all, is the result of complexity emerging from the furnace of the big bang.



In layman language the complexity emerged as the early universe cooled during its expansion. The cooling allowed for different kinds of interactions among the parts which either could not take place or which were unstable at the higher temperatures. I think.

The word 'complexity' has a different meaning in biological systems but it still has a lot to do with the number of parts and the connections and interactions that are possible among them.



Feynman
written by Jim Ottaviani
art by Leland Myrick
coloring by Hilary Sycamore
First Second
New York and London
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 16, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
Gravity....

...which is not yet fully understood.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 16, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
Yeah, where's the beef? Well, science will tell you its out in the pasture and they're going to go out and round it up as soon as they can and the religious folks will tell you you've already eaten it and you should relax and enjoy. I don't have to worry about it because I'm a vegeterian.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Sep 16, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
What is your measure of complexity? What do you mean when you say things get more complex over time?

I like Feynman's, "...ways of thinking about Nature...the spirit of it."

"...we can imagine that this complicated array of moving things - 'the world' - is sorta like a great game played by the gods, and we're observers. We don't know the rules - all we get to do is watch them playing. If we watch long enough, we may eventually catch on to a few rules of the game, and we call these rules fundamental physics."


So from that perspective, complexity, whatever it is, would be a consequence of physics, whose rules we don't know all of, nor do we know where physics came from, but the rules we do know are enough to allow for a lot of complexity.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Sep 16, 2015 - 04:14pm PT
My Gravitron Moment

The gravity of gravity,
Grave until the grave, the implications,
Caught and compressed,
Coalesced to a singularity,
Not so rare the rarity,
The crush upon the crusher,
From light years away I'm drawn,
To be pounded and confounded,
At the heart of a star,
And it gives me such a headache,
It barely knew me.

-bushman

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 16, 2015 - 04:33pm PT
Well, actually that was just a guess. But turns out here's a guy who has a few more substantial ideas about it, starting at about 2:00:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
Seth Lloyd says: The real answer is: "Nobody really knows".

That's the stock answer by the mental speculators because they only know how to guess and are ultimately clueless.

They're so arrogant and egotistical they believe they are authority.

Stupid fools always say: "No One Knows"

In the middle of those three words is the ONE.

The "ONE" knows, but the modern materialists loons have no brain to understand anything beyond their daily projections of their own 0wned minds ....

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 16, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
"Prigogine contends that determinism is no longer a viable scientific belief."



Wonder how many others are meeting the Nobel Prize winner even half way on this one? What percentage of people out there want to believe the man has incorrectly interpreted the data? I think those numbers would be rather high.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
Am i confused? Is this The Mind thread. lol
Glad to see all the science guys,,,, over here: )

The first second, and the birth of light

In the first second after the universe began, the surrounding temperature was about 10 billion degrees Fahrenheit (5.5 billion Celsius), according to NASA. The cosmos contained a vast array of fundamental particles such as neutrons, electrons and protons. These decayed or combined as the universe got cooler.
This early soup would have been impossible to look at, because light could not carry inside of it. "The free electrons would have caused light (photons) to scatter the way sunlight scatters from the water droplets in clouds," NASA stated. Over time, however, the free electrons met up with nuclei and created neutral atoms. This allowed light to shine through about 380,000 years after the Big Bang.
This early light — sometimes called the "afterglow" of the Big Bang — is more properly known as the cosmic microwave background (CMB).

Credit: NASA/WMAP
Gravitational waves controversy
While astronomers could see the universe's beginnings, they've also been seeking out proof of its rapid inflation. Theory says that in the first second after the universe was born, our cosmos ballooned faster than the speed of light. That, by the way, does not violate Albert Einstein's speed limit since he said that light is the maximum anything can travel within the universe. That did not apply to the inflation of the universe itself.
Space.com

The procedure in this formation by scientist is remarkably consistent with the order given by Mosses in Genesis some 3500 yrs ago :)

Genesis 1.1 In the beginning God created the Heavens then the earth.
" " 1.2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.
" " 1:3 Then God said let there be light. (But there was not a Sun yet!)

That was the FIRST day. (Compared to the scientist's first second)

Day 2, God said, let there be a firmament. This "firmament" divided the waters from the earth, and earth from the "Heavens" or "outer space". Could this be "Gravity"? Cause on the Third day, God brought forth seed, which allowed grass, herbs, and trees to grow. These things which everyone knows, can't grow without "Gravity".

THEN, on the forth day. God said, let there be lights in the firmament of the Heavens. Then God made TWO great lights: The greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the Stars also. (But gave NO order)

Can anyone here refute the 3500yr old God given to Mosses depiction of the unfolding of the universe compared to the 21 century white coat, slide rule theory??

PLEASE put me in my place...
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Sep 16, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
JL,

Would determinism bother you if it existed? If so, why?

There is determinism of a kind or we could not send a spacecraft to take pictures of Pluto.

If you want to predict what an individual elementary particle is going to do, determinism has been dead a long time.
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
The symptom of free will is self-determination.

Non-living bodies obey mechanical laws of nature and act according to external forces.

But the living organisms utilize physical laws in carrying out their biological functions;

therefore physical laws are not sufficient to describe them. For e.g., a bird’s flight path cannot be calculated from Newton's laws of motion.

Plants grow above the ground against the force of gravity, i.e. they exhibit negative gravitropism.

The movements of organism show self-determinism. Organisms utilize laws of nature to fulfill their ends.

This self-determinism is the central feature of all cognitive beings that is never found in non-living objects.

Nobel Biologist Barbara McClintock even considered the plants to have a subjective being.

Plants know if they are being taken care of. She was convinced that plants can feel pain and joy.

Cell can sense its internal errors during metabolism. Even gene defects are recognized and corrected.

The conclusion is that organisms have a strong sense of self-recognition and self-identity, and it plays a significant role during its life time.

Leading biologists like Shapiro to come to the deduction that ‘Consciousness’ is the universal and ubiquitous concept of life.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Sep 16, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
"Prigogine contends that determinism is no longer a viable scientific belief." . . . Wonder how many others are meeting the Nobel Prize winner even half way on this one? (JL)

So, spell out the alternatives you consider appropriate.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2015 - 08:51pm PT
Bushy that was a great one : )

reminiscent so clear and dear
indecision in which way to steer
can/could bring forth fear
it can't be a question of straight or queer
and shouldn't be debated when high on beer
there's never been a time so near
we ought close our eyes and listen, just not through the ear
the universe is here for us to peer
compared to our hearts it looks so mere
no thing is meant to be as it may appear
jus say'in ur head will never have enough gear
so forget about the smear
jesus said put down the spear
gettin back to ur knee, you'll find he's your peer
knock, knock and knock, he will hear

BB
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 16, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
A certain degree of determinism is in play or they're be no constants in life and existence would be unmanageable. The issue gets a little tricky when we start talking about free will - amongst other things.

Realize that the rational mind is reductive by nature, always pegging current events to antecedents, to previous sources, causes, influences from which this or that emerged. So in terms of thought, the idea of an undetermined idea, say, finds no traction. Where would it come from? The notion that something comes from nothing is also a non-starter with the rational mind. Except for the Big Ass Bang.

But again, I wonder how many people also want to stand up and declare that determinism is no longer a viable scientific theory. I say almost no one will do this, and most will favor some form of work around.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2015 - 09:05pm PT

"Prigogine contends that determinism is no longer a viable scientific belief."

Well that's a whale of a cheeseburger!

Fruity will have to take two shots of T consecutively to overcome that one.
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