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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
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Ed: I don't think his [Largo’s] academic experience actually is sufficient, . . . .
Well, that’s a conversation that’s worth having because it exposes the underbelly of what we think knowledge is and when one has enough of it.
Someone said: "Clarity is next to Godliness".
Not my God. My God is beyond clarification. (And he’d damned well better be!)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 15, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
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Those with Godliness see with clarity?
I just got back from a rehearsal of the Messiah which I haven't sung in a number of years. Musical talent of which I have only a little, is so mysterious and so different than science. I can't help but be glad Handel was a Christian. The Messiah and the stained glass windows of Europe make up for a lot of other sins.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Sep 16, 2015 - 06:43am PT
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gods an assehole but
if it wasn't for she
engineers would
enjoy no
extraordinary challenges.
so i guess she
gets my loaded vote.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 16, 2015 - 08:24am PT
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Oh, the sweet mystery of life.
an Italian anthropologist perspective
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The great American author Henry David Thoreau once remarked that, for some enigmatic reason, human beings require things to be mysterious.
Scholars now believe that the drama genre itself may have developed from rituals performed by the secret cults of ancient Greece (Mishlove, 1993). Pythagoras, Plato, and other great thinkers are said to have taken part. The central purpose of those rituals appears to have been to pose questions about the mystery of existence (Hall, 1973).
So, it may be asked, what purpose does [the need for mystery] serve in human life? Plato eventually came to believe that this peculiar need served no purpose whatsoever, arising simply out of superstitious traditions which, he asserted, put obstacles in the path of true science.
After observing the method of philosophical inquiry used by the the Athenian teacher Socrates, whom he greatly admired, Plato proclaimed dialectical reasoning to be the only useful method of gaining knowledge, defining it as the Socratic process of examining ideas logically by means of a sequence of questions and answers.
…Plato apparently ignored the fact that the central practices of the "superstitious traditions" he denounced were themselves fundamentally dialectical in nature, since their aim was to probe the mystery of existence by posing questions about it.
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taken from
The Puzzle Instinct: The Meaning of Puzzles in Human Life
Marcel Danesi
What is "Mind?"
the mystery continues
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 16, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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defining it as the Socratic process of examining ideas logically by means of a sequence of questions and answers.
My best teacher used the Socratic Method. He would ask us lots of questions and when I was done, I had learned to teach myself in a systemic and critical way. I owe him a lot.
As for the Universal Genome, I mean exactly that. My neighbor teaches evolution at a big university, and I posed the question that it would be odd if life only began once in the history of the Earth. His response was that there was a universal genome buried in entire genomes, and they indicate a common ancestor. All life is like this.
I'm taking him at his word, but would love to discuss it with anyone who has anything to offer on the matter.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 16, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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what I say, and have said, is that "complex" and "simple," as we usually discuss them, are human values and not intrinsic properties... when we "objectify" the two, we often find that something is complex in one description, and simple in another... and while that might be perfectly understandable from the science, it confounds our discussion.
when you bring this back to the OP title's topic, we find that a "simple" way to understand the universe it to construct a human-like agent that administers it, and imbue that agent with powers that are incomprehensible to us (and ultimately violate physical laws, but that is part and parcel of the construction). this is a sort of sophisticated animism.
while an exclusively natural explanation appears complex, it actually is "simple" not having to depend on something special, like the existence of the human-like agent with a set of attributes that are unique and exceptional.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/naturalism/
(I'll have to read this in more detail later, however...)
In some physics thinking on cosmology there is an interesting line of reasoning that takes into account the likelihood that we are considering the question at all... and the implications that that likelihood cannot be small, that is, not special.
This conjecture has a name: "naturalness."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalness_(physics);
and the hard work is finding a physical explanation for it.
On the other hand, at the concluding walk back from lunch on Monday, a colleague expressed the suspicion that maybe things aren't all that "natural" and we are confounding our empirical observations by such conjectures.
Funny how having this discussion in person is so much more productive than having it in the STForum...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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Thanks Ed, on all your points re: simple vs complex I agree. On your last post regarding the topic as well.
.....
BASE, as long as you're good on the distinctions between (1) genome (2) universal genetic code (3) gene pool I'm good too! Your use of "universal genome" is unorthodox in biology though (and thus confusing or potentially so) but I have no idea of your friend's use or context.
.....
Here Dave Rubin who recently interviewed Harris has some thoughts on atheists in the closet, losing their anonymity, the need to speak out; also on taking back liberalism and... and the need to fight back.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Df71BTw7Zw
I'm a new fan. I really like him. Go Dave!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 16, 2015 - 10:17am PT
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I think what Base's friend meant is that the building blocks of all living genomes on the earth and all fossils that we have analyzed are based on four amino acids, ACGT, in some combination. These various combinations comprise the DNA of all living beings and are strung together by the millions. The complete string is the individual's genome but there are also species genomes, genus genomes, animal genomes vs plants etc.
The universalism of these four amino acids indicate that life on earth has only one source, one beginning, whatever the cause. If we ever find even one living entity on the planet that has different amino acids in its DNA, then we will conclude that life started and evolved more than once. The most likely place to find such organisms would be in extreme environments with little competition from the more general ACGT based genomes. People have searched under the ice in Antarctica, deep in the oceans beside volcanic vents, deep in core drills done inside of deep mines etc. and so far they've always found ACGT based DNA comprising living genomes.
The source of these amino acids was postulated for a long time as lightning striking oceans of the right combination of chemicals. More recently we have found the same four amino acids on hunks of rock that have fallen out of the sky from space, indicating that they exist elsewhere in the universe and that it's very likely that the building blocks of life on this planet came from somewhere else, a theory labeled panspermia by one of the co-discoverers of DNA.
This leads us back to Paul's oft expressed view, backed by many scientists, that life seems to be inherent in the universe. Why this should be so, can be speculated as the result of the Big Bang which leads to the question of what existed before the Big Bang. As Ed says up above, the simplest explanation is that there is a human like being behind it all, or, I would add, that there that there was nothing at all, but that seems unlikely, and that the answer, including any definition of a God behind it all vs the inherent nature of eternal matter and energy in some form (the mathematical universe?), has to be much more complex and well above our ape evolved intelligence grade for the forseable future.
Correction (see below). Substitute nucleotides for amino acids.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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What gives rise to complexity?
Stupidity, arrogance and ignorance.
The living entity wants to lord it over the material energy.
Instead the stupid fools are being lorded over because they are eternally subordinate yet the fools think they can lord it over.
The gross materialists are the biggest ignorant, arrogant fools on the planet .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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Jan, review amino acids vs nucleotides.
Also, review "genome."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 16, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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Well I knew someone here would immediately correct the details, so I'm leaving that to the scientists. This is my explanation as given to freshman liberal arts majors who are being exposed to evolution for the first time. It goes along with a drawing on the board of our solar system, our solar system's place toward the end of one arm of our crab nebula galaxy, one of many which we can see no end of, no matter how much we refine our observations.
My purpose is to show them that evolution of life on earth is a fact, that we are insignificant in the wider scheme of the physical universe, and that the big questions remain unanswered. Knowing the latter, they are much more likely to accept the fact of evolution.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 10:37am PT
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"Well I knew someone here ... This is my explanation as given..." -Jan
Well at least don't call the four nucleotides ACGT amino acids. Please.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 16, 2015 - 10:46am PT
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Do you have another word that sounds less intimidating for folks who have never heard any of this? I am always open to suggestions, but remember, keeping it simple and non intimidating is the secret to absorption at that level.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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"Do you have another word that sounds less intimidating for folks who have never heard any of this? I am always open to suggestions, but remember, keeping it simple and non intimidating is the secret to absorption at that level." -Jan
Wow.
to freshman liberal arts majors
Distinguishing between aa's and nucleotides is too hard?
Coddling college freshman?
Did you see Obama's recent words just a couple days ago on coddling students.
But I don't think it's about coddling at all in this case, I think it's about you yourself not being clear on the diff between aa's and nucleotides and then trying to cover your ass (cya).
Where is fuking integrity these days? And owning up to blunders, etc.?
College kids can distinguish between quarterback and pitcher. So too between aa's and nucelotides. So too can evo teachers. Yes, the distinction is that basic.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 16, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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Isn't complexity a function of the natural process of entropy? It seems ironic, but in order to expel energy more efficiently material structures may acquire a more complex nature...so that the structure of the universe employs these complex systems as a means of achieving entropy.
The big question is where does all that indestructible energy go?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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Do you have another word that sounds less intimidating for folks who have never heard any of this?
Just "DNA" then.
Just don't bullsh#t.
Gotta go.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 16, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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Entropy of all things. The natural progression of all matter is toward a state of entropy as in an equilibrium of energy with its immediate surroundings. As in my coffee is now room temp.
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