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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Lack of answers...
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Norton
Social climber
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preference for the answers that religion gives
belief in an afterlife, core of almost all religions
rituals, very important, give direction, subservience and meaning to many, power to few
Sunday bake sales to benefit the lone poor family in the suburban parish
what's not to like?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Could be...
...fear
...pride
...self-loathing.
...brain damage.
...fuked up parenting.
...lack of education.
...any number of things.
I know the whole religion thing really pisses you off sometimes but it is not going away soon. Righteous anger or frustration? Never works.
I think if you want to change minds or win hearts then you need to have your "A game" on.
It takes some work to have a discussion about this stuff without falling into one of the several traps that make it pointless.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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HFCS: Where I stand, "hatred of religion" makes no more sense than "hatred of disease" or "hatred of failing infrastructure" or "hatred of littering in natural parks." . . . Instead, there is just (a) problem solving and (b) interest (if not passion or merely a job (or dirty work nobody else wants to do?)) to bring innovation to problem areas in the quest for better whatever it is... in this case it's better beliefs and better belief systems better suited to 21st century living and its challenges and issues, moral and social.
Well, this is interesting. Good job.
Any intense feeling usually comes packaged with two elements. The first is the energy. That element is powerful; you can mainline that stuff. It's the stuff of the universe. The second element is the interpretation that usually goes along with the energy.
Separate the two. Look at the thought or the interpretation--the “what” you think REALLY matters. Disgard.
Now surf the energy. THIS is the experience, Base.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Wayno,
I'm not sure if you're "in" on the trope started by Paul R.
But it's dang fun. :)
.....
The Dirty Harry of science vs religion...
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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"In"? I think you are all a bunch of fruitcakes, but I wouldn't have it any other way. That way, I always know what's best.
But kidding aside, I follow along from time to time and it is interesting. Not so much the content but the choice of words. It says a lot. I tend to read too much into stuff though, so I usually just shut up.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Well, I can't seem to get an answer to the question: Is there more than one grand experiential adventure in Zen; so I'll pose the question: Would my art of dreaming escapades be considered a legitimate experiential adventure?
The fundamental problem with this thread is the lack of basic definitions.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Would my art of dreaming escapades be considered a legitimate experiential adventure?
I don't think there is or needs to be an orthodoxy that would make legitimate any such endeavor. That has always been a problem for me when discussing these things with the Zen indoctrinated.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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The fundamental problem with this thread is the lack of basic definitions.
I disagree.
The fundamental problem with this thread is a particular man crush by at least two maybe three or four posters.
I don't think we need to name names. All pretty obvious at this point.
(I wish it would move to the mind thread though. Where the object of the man crush is more likely to post anyways.)
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Base said"although you all have a serious bug up your a*# when it comes to science."
In the school I practice with one zen master has a PHD in biology another in physics and another in Math. I am a geologist. So the above assumption of serious Bugs uta is not correct.
One thing worked with in zen is hindrances. Hinderances are things we can not become dis-attached from; anything can become a hindrance if you hold it with a narrow view. Typically they are ideas, about other people or situations, that we hold tightly to justify why we like or dislike them.
When you sit still everyday for 30 minutes or more sooner or later you will observe how you are holding onto some opinion about someone and recognize it is only a story you made up. Probably to justify your anger. you also get to observe your anger (or what ever emotion) and see what it is ; how does it feel ? where did it come from ? What is it from a experiential view not a discursive view?
So the observed hindrances become a wonderful opportunity to work with them. Yesterday I had the opportunity to work with disappointment ; my typical tendency is to become , angry or sad etc. that I am not getting what i want. i couldn't get a project out on time for like the third day in a row ,my smog guy charged me $1,000 for a glorified tune up and then the check engine light went on again as I drove away so i can't get smogged until he resolves it. i have been observing the feelings and emotions for each one of these incidents and realizing getting angry or feeling victimized is just a habit pattern . When the check engine light went on I laughed; it is still difficult there is still this underlying narrative to want to blame people and hold onto the disappointment ; so I am watching that too.
It is great stuff if you are into it! Most people aren't into looking at their anger and holding it with as much openness as possible to really experience it. The same thing can be done with the so called positive emotions and ideas ; what are they?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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OK, PSP. So are those experiential adventures? I wonder if JL considers them to be. Someday he will come out from behind the curtain and clarify this important concept. Hopefully.
The fundamental problem with this thread is a particular man crush by at least two maybe three or four posters (HFCS)
It would be much better if we could just go back to hate-religions rants.
You have said that in your "work" you cross all these boundaries and in particular advocate the abandonment of all religions as you strongly advocate the sciences. Do you express yourself to those with whom you work with the same ferocity against religions that we see here? And what is it you actually do? And why don't we see any photos of you posted? And what sort of climbing have you done? Are you, in fact, a Stonemaster in disguise?
Do you really adore JL but am afraid to admit it?
;>)
Your pose as man of mystery is beginning to pale. Why not come clean and provide a little information instead of all these "clues" you scatter about?
Or, simply continue as you have - which is what you will do.
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WBraun
climber
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You couldn't strike anything worth the sh!t.
Atheists are frogs living in a deep well.
When these atheists are told there's a huge ocean they say it doesn't exist.
The atheists in the deep well never leave their well and thus remain stooopid and always make their stupid claims based only on their life in their well.
This is exactly the stupid fruitcake atheists platform always .....
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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religion is worship of the supernatural, no more no less
The Sith speaks in absolutes.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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...a discursive view
what is this?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Spider that noise you hear is sarcasm made by hcfs going over your head. No time to explain, sorry.
Give Tom Cruise a big wet kiss for me. ;)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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I just went to a funeral yesterday for a Yosemite climber I knew in the '60's and was reminded again of some of the roles religion still plays and why it will be around for awhile. The congregation in this case was Lutheran and the religious part of the ceremony pretty definitively and dogmatically traditional Christianity (Christ is the only way etc.). However, the outpouring of love toward a deceased member of the congregation who had quite a different background than they did, was very impressive. They made jokes about his eccentricities but clearly out of fondness while many members told of visiting him in institutions for years as he slowly declined. When it came time for communion, they made a point (against traditional teachings of their church) that all were welcome. Those who did not partake did not feel any discrimination.
The siblings of the deceased were incorporated into the service and there was a nice reception afterwards. Although psychedelics were mentioned as part of the downfall of the person involved, no one acted shocked. Rather, they observed that psychedelics often revealed a search for deeper meaning, which that person eventually found in religion.
I was reminded again that religion is about much more than a belief in the supernatural and the metaphysical ideas we discuss here. It is also a community of people supporting each other and attempting to be better, more open and loving, human beings. Maybe the atheist community will evolve in this direction, but so far they can't hold a candle to traditional religion in terms of support systems.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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I was reminded again that religion is about much more than a belief in the supernatural and the metaphysical ideas we discuss here. It is also a community of people supporting each other and attempting to be better, more open and loving, human beings. Maybe the atheist community will evolve in this direction, but so far they can't hold a candle to traditional religion in terms of support systems.
Very fine.
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