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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 30, 2015 - 03:23am PT
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I just feel compelled to say if one hates the destruction by ISIS of ancient monuments please remember they're being destroyed because ISIS recognizes they are dedicated/they were built to honor "false " or unreal, non existent gods... it's the destruction of belief they (isis) are certain is simply untrue and they want to protect the public from those false deities...
In a sense aren't they correct? Why would anyone want to save monuments built to deities that don't exist? We atheists are certain those deities are imaginary maybe we should applaud those monuments being destroyed. Let's put an end to Abrahamic religion and then tear down the pyramids.
Why don't we just do away with you, as you serve no meaningful purpose? Not as meaningful as 1st century artifacts.
Religion is science, science is religion. Think about it. Funny how people want to contrast the 2.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 30, 2015 - 04:10am PT
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Well, Jesus, I respect the individual and freewill. I also have respect for history, knowledge, and learning. Sometimes from the past.
People who would destroy a historical artifact because they disagree with what it represents are wrong. This line of thinking is almost as archaic as the history they're destroying. Where's the logic in that?
Maybe it has nothing to do with logic, but an emotional response. But to what? Is it just blind hate?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 30, 2015 - 04:41am PT
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It is learned behavior. No more than monkey see idiot do. . .
My fathers father, was way out - had to eat your garbage, and hated you.
so I his great grandson , born of a women, hate you for 'no' reason,
except that you exists to ttry to tell me what to do.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
More than anything else there is God in everyone and Good and bad are also joined at the hip.
Human nature? The ingrained need to survive?
To rise up and dwell in a better light filled way?
To strive to make time spent worth living or just better day to day.
So that.the misery of last year seems far away today.
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 29, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
If I put my brain in high gear, examine all the evidence, weigh the pros and cons, remember what mother told me, and divide by the square root of minus one, with luck I can choose a toothpaste.
And to call your self 'heyseusse' you phony fuk.- I am GOD and you defame me
know that if I had a son I would name him Phillup. O'Full. . . Phillup C O'fullosh!t,
Or Aalan, so that he was first in line.
Not the expletive of choice , Jesus christ. . . .
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Aug 30, 2015 - 09:02am PT
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Why don't we just do away with you, as you serve no meaningful purpose? Not as meaningful as 1st century artifacts.
Religion is science, science is religion. Think about it. Funny how people want to contrast the 2.
Always willing to bend to the brilliance of the super T. You're right, I change my mind. lol!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 30, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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"Always willing to bend to the brilliance of the super T. You're right, I change my mind." -Paul
Paul, that might be one of your best retorts ever.
lol
(If you don't mind, I'll be using it in my own world elsewhere.)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 30, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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It was a full moon last night. And I heard Wallmart had a sale on Natty ice ;(
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MikeMc
Social climber
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Aug 30, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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Some one say Super T?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 31, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
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What I want to know is what the Zen contingent DOES.
They constantly critique everyone else, but we have gone on for years here, and they have been very tight lipped about their activities. Show me some evidence, or at least explain the how and why to us. Perhaps it is difficult to put into words, but I think that that is a copout. Largo is a financially successful writer. He should be able to explain it.
Peter Matthiessen wrote a thick book about Zen for the popular audience.
I have one question about it, though. Throughout the centuries we have seen religions and cults thrive in human society. Geez, look at Scientology for a weird one that is very much alive. Basically, when they are groundless, people will believe almost anything. If you have ever read the first 50 pages of the Koran, then the atrocities committed by ISIS are not surprising at all. It is really a violent book. A huge chunk of the world believes in it, and they tip their foreheads to the ground five times a day as instructed.
How do you guys know that you aren't deluding yourselves? How do you know that you aren't drinking the Kool-Aid, so to speak? We know that we can deceive ourselves. That very fact makes me leery of all religion. Once you abandon reality, you can literally take your mind anywhere, and believe anything.
So talk about it. After all of these years, though, we get very little about the method and beliefs behind it. Largo has danced around this for years.
Here is what how wiki sums it up:
Zen (Chinese: 禪; pinyin: Chán, Middle Chinese: dʑjen) is a school of Mahayana Buddhism[note 1] that originated in China during the Tang dynasty as Chán. It was strongly influenced by Taoism, and developed as a distinguished Chinese style of Buddhism. From China, Chán spread south to Vietnam, northeast to Korea and east to Japan, where it became known as Japanese Zen.[2]
Zen emphasizes rigorous meditation-practice, insight into Buddha-nature, and the personal expression of this insight in daily life, especially for the benefit of others.[3][4] As such, it deemphasizes mere knowledge of sutras and doctrine[5][6] and favors direct understanding through zazen and interaction with an accomplished teacher.[7]
The teachings of Zen include various sources of Mahāyāna thought, especially Yogācāra, the Tathāgatagarbha Sutras and Huayan, with their emphasis on Buddha-nature, totality, and the Bodhisattva-ideal.[8][9] The Prajñāpāramitā literature[10] and, to a lesser extent, Madhyamaka have also been influential in the shaping of the "paradoxical language" of the Zen-tradition.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 31, 2015 - 01:46pm PT
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BASE, methods can be described, but there are no beliefs any more than there are beliefs in engineering. Beliefs, faith and so forth come out of religion, which I am not qualified to talk about because I am not religious.
Secular mediation can be viewed as the studied look at your subjective experience. People dedicating time to this work should be thought of as anyone dedicating time to anything they consider worthwhile or interesting. People project all kinds of hokum onto the practice, all drawn from their particular conditions, and rarely - if you notice - from any formal training or coursework. In fact, the very idea of formal training evokes all kinds of silly stuff about gurus and so on, though any idolatry is likely no more than that found anywhere there are so-called experts and students, be it in climbing or grad school or on the baseball diamond.
If you look at the arguments arising from this discussion, most arise from people guessing about the work just described, or hauling in dog-eared religious beliefs and insisting the experiential adventures are self0same. Same goes with trying to infer truths about the experiential adventures while reductively studying objects. Staunch reductionists will never admit this to themselves, and for good reason.
All of this underscores the two pesky beliefs that simply will not die per the experiential: First, it is really old-time religion masquerading as this or that but in fact it is snake oil because no quantifications ("truth") are forthcoming. I can say over and over that the experiential is not about content but only those practicing some experiential discipline know that to be so.
And the second misconception - Sam Harris and others are plain wrong about the subjective NOT being reducible to an object, meaning objective measuring cannot get to the bottom of all there is per the experiential.
But what specific question do you have per methods and I (and others) can take a crack at it relative to our experience. OR you can ask Dingus and he can tell you all about it LOL.
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 31, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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Same goes with trying to infer truths about the experiential adventures while reductively studying objects (JL)
You infer there is more than one such adventure (repeated over and over).
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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hauling in dog-eared religious beliefs and insisting the experiential adventures are self0same
Nooooooo.....I don't feel that you are treated like this at all. I read a book once called "Buddhism Without Belief." Of course the point was that Buddhism did not insist on anything supernatural, and I have assumed that with you guys since day 1 of this conversation. I've tried to be careful about that point. No, you don't appear to believe in something supernatural. From where I sit, you guys appear to be exploring the human mind, and I like that idea.
I can't, in any way, compare you to an evangelist. Hell, I can't compare you to someone who is religious at all. That has never come across from any of you, although you all have a serious bug up your a*# when it comes to science. To which I reply something like, Has any Zen master done anything as important as inventing the polio vaccine? But don't worry about that. It is beside the point.
And I'm not sure that that is even fair to you. Seriously. You guys don't come across like fervent supernaturalists. Never have.
So what is the experience like?
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WBraun
climber
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Of course the point was that Buddhism did not insist on anything supernatural
Yes that is true.
But those in poor fund of knowledge do not know that Buddha was none other than an incarnation of God himself to mislead the atheist to stop their ignorant karmic reactions
so that they could advance spiritually in their next life by not having to suffer undue Karmic reactions.
Buddha preached against his own self.
Only God himself can perfectly cheat the living entity for the correct result.
Those in fund of knowledge will never understand this .....
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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So what is the experience like?
I could be all washed up on this but I think that you have to have an "experience" yourself and then it all becomes clear that it is quite ineffable. Kinda like faith in that you must take the first step. If you don't see the point then go in a different direction and be there instead of wondering the how, what and why. Experiment and experience do not need be science or faith based. Just do it.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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“Zen contingent?” You’re over-generalizing.
As for the wiki cut-and-paste, what did you understand from any of those words? I don’t think you know what any of them are referring to. I don’t think they say much of anything and I think I do know what they are referring to (so try to make some sense of that!).
If your focus or meaning only comes from “doing” (“getting things done”), then that might expose a bias. Where or what is “being” for you? When you write, “what is the experience like?” what is the “the” you are referring to?
The “the” is happening at all times everywhere, eyes open, closed, conscious or unconscious. “Being” is noticing it, exquisitely. If you’ve ever had a close call, you’ve seen it.
Do me a favor: try to describe a harrowing “close call” that you’ve experienced—fully, accurately, in a way that will make us experience it, too. Next (and this is the important part), without relating the event, tell us what “it” was. What IS experience, itself?
There’s nothing really special going on. Chop wood and carry water. Be what you cannot help but be. Look anywhere, and you will see it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Better would be the "metaphysical Solipsist / Pratītyasamutpāda contingent"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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re: rejection of religion vs "hatred of religion"
re: criticism of religion vs "hatred of religion"
So, Jan, after several days of consideration, I've decided not to accept the "hatred of religion" description. I'll be sticking with the usual description, perspective or view (mine and others)... that being... rejection of religion, criticism of religion and the occasional criticism of religionists or criticism of sympathesizers of religion who should know better.
Despite "hate" or "hatred" being an antipode of "love," there really is no hatred here, not on my end or in problem solving in this area of interest of mine in regards to belief and doing better.
Where I stand, "hatred of religion" makes no more sense than "hatred of disease" or "hatred of failing infrastructure" or "hatred of littering in natural parks."
Instead, there is (a) problem solving and (b) interest (if not passion or merely a job (or dirty work nobody else wants to do?)) to bring innovation to problem areas in the quest for better whatever it is... in this case it's better beliefs and better belief systems better suited to 21st century living and its challenges and issues, moral and social.
So no "hatred of religion" on my part when for instance just today I learn of and read this...
Kentucky woman refuses to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples on God's authority...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/31/politics/kentucky-gay-marriage-licenses-supreme-court/index.html?sr=tw090115Godsauthority1240pVodTopPhoto
instead, on my part, it's just one more instance of "criticism of religion" or "rejection of religion." More to follow I'm sure.
If others, evangelicals or whoever, want to refer to my criticism or rejection as "hatred" and I'm sure many will esp in today's media and FOX driven climate, then so be it. Thank you for reminding me they have this right and that I need to just ignore them and keep going in the charge to improve and innovate.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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HFCS, religion is an urge, no more no less. Now what that urge hath wrought is a whole different story.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Wayno, food for thought...
Why havn't more people moved past religion and its superstitions?
Could it be... akrasia?
The same reason more people... don't have six-pack abs? haven't stopped eating meat from animal factories? don't know elementary physics and chemistry? or know where their spleen is and what it does?
akrasia: weakness of will
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