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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 27, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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JL = Too many brews (experiential adventures) before replying.
;>(
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 27, 2015 - 10:21pm PT
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Werner:
You crack me up sometimes. Hilarious post. I have to say I appreciate your writing often. You make me laugh.
BB and Ward:
You know, don’t you, that there is a nude beach down here near Pismo? (The sights are hardly all that attractive.)
And for the restaurant that used to be at the end of Avila Bay (Fat Cats), it used to provide the best ever Huevos Rancheros anywhere. But they changed cooks about 12 years ago. They’ve been downhill from there. But you can still watch the seals playing out around the harbor point sometimes. I used to teach at CalPoly for 6 years, and AB was a great place to be alone and read. Montana de Oro has a nice set of hikes and even a couple of gnarly downhill biking tracks. Thanks for the picture, Ward. The California coast is simply wonderful. Santa Cruz and up to Monterey, too. “Pelican hierarchy” presents a great image, too.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 08:59am PT
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There use to be a live radio station on the pier. You could just drop by dance, make requests. Great DJs with eclectic taste. Eat,drink, and take in beautiful nights on the pier.( MikeL, for all I know it could have been you out there "shaking a leg")
Montana de Oro has a nice set of hikes
Yeah all over those hills. One place of particular note is See Canyon, a sheltered place not far from San Luis bay. There are old apple farms back there. You've never had real apple cider until you've tasted some of that local product.
The See Canyon road continues on up and over the hills until you reach the crest ridges where the entire San Luis Obispo/Morro Bay coastal plain can be taken in with a view on a clear day.
Many of the longer trails that start from Montaña lead up to there.
The local natural terrain is a fine example of central California coastal Live oak woodland
What does this all have to do with Science vs Religion?
Hang with me and I'll tie all of it together soon. In due course.
I almost forgot, another place of note in that general region is Lake Lopez, inland from the town of Arroyo Grande. Because the lake is artificial my expectations were not high when I first visited. Turns out the place is a virtual freeway of local, seemingly concentrated wildlife. I spent the nights out on the ground and had foxes, coatimundi , and what may have been a cougar, and numerous other garden variety denizens pass continually by our camp. During the day herds of wild turkey grazed all over the place. It was like living inside of a museum diorama.
Worth a camping visit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 07:36pm PT
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Afghanistan 1970s v. 2000s...
Cause?
Um, I can't quite put my finger on it. Could it be...oh I don't know...
climate change?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 28, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
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That wasn't Afghanistan in the 1970's, that was clueless western tourist women in Afghanistan in the 1970's. I knew a number of women who traveled all through Afghanistan with one other woman during that period of time and had no problems on the public transportation or anywhere else. Of course they were covered up with headscarves on. Afghanistan was still traditional enough that men didn't bother women who were respectful of the local customs. The same women had many distasteful and frightening experiences in the more modernized and secular countries of Turkey, Iran. and Pakistan.
It would be interesting to know the full history of the destruction of that place and what was attached to the garden. Perhaps a war lord's house that got blown away in the endless civil wars for power rather than religion? Perhaps a Christian mission that was forced on them in return for a foreign aid project? Perhaps it was a western ambassador's house that was occupied by the Russians and therefore destroyed?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
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Consider the geography. That was the focus.
It's just a google away. Look at the 70s pixs of Kabul.
Compare to 2000s.
Or start here...
Recall these?
Cause? Climate change? Earthquake?
You sure you're a defender of liberal values?
In these places?
Here, seconds away thanks to the internet, Jan...
"no problems on the public transportation..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabul
and now?
Perhaps a war lord's house that got blown away in the endless civil wars for power rather than religion? Perhaps a Christian mission that was forced on them in return for a foreign aid project? Perhaps it was a western ambassador's house that was occupied by the Russians and therefore destroyed?
With all due respect, you really need to pull your head out.
http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2013/01/28/podlich-afghanistan-1960s-photos/5846/
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 28, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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Paul seems to be more of an art expert, so I would go with sycorax on this.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 28, 2015 - 09:41pm PT
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fructose, I am not a fan of religious fundamentalism. I'm just saying that religion is not the answer nor the cause of every social problem in the world. The current mess in Afghanistan and several other countries in the Islamic World, is more the result of western colonialism (that includes the Russians) and CIA meddling than it ever was of religion. The traditional religion observed traditional norms which were and are not our choice, but it's their country to decide. It's our meddling there and the Russians, and the British before us, which provoked this extremist backlash against anything modern or western.
In the absence of national unity, people fall back on religion, ethnicity, and tribalism and tend to react in the opposite direction of whatever they dislike. It's time for us to realize that modernity, democracy, and religious reform can not be imposed, they have to evolve from within the society itself. When we try to force them upon others, we end up with a worse mess than what we were trying to correct.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
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"The current mess in Afghanistan and several other countries in the Islamic World, is more the result of western colonialism (that includes the Russians) and CIA meddling than it ever was of religion."
Ludicrous.
religion is not the answer nor the cause of every social problem in the world
Nobody says it is. Many factors in the mix. Here we pick one factor, usually in these discussions and elsewhere the predominant one... TRADITIONAL FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGION... WHETHER ISLAM OR CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM (minimal nowadays), roll up our sleeves and go to work against it. Unfortunately it's got its sympathizers and obscurantists though.
Tell me, can you ever post without the caricature and hyperbole?
Doesn't seems so.
Tell me something else, (a) are you a "science type"? just curious... (b) do you agree with Paul: "Science is a method, no more no less." just curious...
Gotta go now.
Gotta do some serious discursive thinking purposed toward problem solving. :)
PS You've heard it before: How do you eat an elephant? ANS One bite at a time. This encapsulates a problem solving strategy you don't really seem to appreciate. Are you a problem solving strategist, Jan?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:04pm PT
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Your hatred of religion fructose, could be seen as ludicrous too, and illustrates very well that when someone is forced to do something against their will, they have a disproportionate reaction to it.
Consider the Chinese who had only peaceful belief systems to work with in their reaction against western colonialism and imperialism. Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism just don't inspire revolutions. Their solution was to adopt a totally alien western ideology to justify their revolution against feudalism. Now they are worried about the lack of ethics in China, and are again teaching Confucianism and nobody in China, from the leaders on down to the peasants has any faith in Communism anymore. One of the things they have against it is that it was used to destroy many historic, artistic, and religious monuments in China during the cultural revolution, all done in the name of a western secular philosophy.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
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I am a social science type, with one foot in the science world, and the other in the humanities, and I would disagree with Paul on this particular point. While some will argue that science should be only a method, it has been made amply clear on this thread that it is also a world view and can become a personal belief system that replaces religion.
And yes, I solve intellectual puzzles and problems and then I publish on them. Another problem I work on solving is the appalling ignorance most undergraduates have of ancient human history and evolution. Another problem I work on is trying to counter the self righteous ignorance of western people about other cultures.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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"Hatred of religion." Hatred? There you go again.
Real science like of you.
Okay, I hate earthquakes, too. I have a hatred of poor safety systems design in vehicles. I have a hatred of slavery. I have a hatred of communism. Happy now? lol
No you don't strike me as a science-type.
Hey in the above pics of Afgan I linked to, did you notice the NH3 on the chalkboard? Just curious, when you saw it, did you know what it was right away without reading the caption? Do you know it now without the Google, do you know what it stands for? Sure you could google it now. But in your heart of hearts you know whether you knew it right away or not, social science type.
Hey I wonder if Dawkins' "hatred of religion" exceeds mine? I wonder what factors create this "hatred" in us? Maybe it's mostly demons? Maybe it's Satan himself? Maybe it's more down to earth: Maybe it's a damaged PFC? Obviously you pride yourself as an analyst / problem solver. What do you say? Whatever it is it must be despicable, an abomination to beget such HATRED, eh? Demons! Satan! Evil!
Hey maybe I have no soul? After all what else could it be? I got nutin...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
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Did I ever say I was? Did I ever say I was any one thing at all? If I stand for anything, it is that there are many paths, not just one.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:20pm PT
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Oh but you're ready to call my push back against fundamentalist Abrahamic religion HATRED at the drop of a hat.
You know I used to problem solve and innovate in a lab environment when I worked in bio engineering. Thanks to your perspicuous insights and feedback I now know why I was pretty good at it: It was because of my HATRED. My HATRED OF problems and my HATRED OF old-fashioned equipment (vacuum tube amplifiers and such). It was my HATRED that pushed me to advance the state of the art. It was my HATRED that secured my job. Hey thanks for your input, I got it all figured out now!!!11
Your next evolution? You going to call me a HATER? One bearing HATRED is a HATER correct me if I'm wrong. Go ahead, I don't care, I'm used to it. Call it out... HATER. HATER. HATER. Klimmer used to.
That ATHEIST HATER!!!11
"Your hatred of religion fructose, could be seen as ludicrous too..." -Jan
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
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This is especially interesting to me because YOU are the literary aficionado here. Right?"
There can be only one "afficionado" and I'm afraid that's me.
Think of me as Clint Eastwood riding into a corrupt "science" town with my serape and cool hat, a Tiparillo hanging from my mouth, I'm on a big white steed, a child runs up to me and I say, "where's the sheriff? I'm the aficionado and I'm here to clean the dirty scientism out o' this town." The kid repeats "aficionado" with a gasp and runs off to tell the sheriff and I ride over to the bar. Sorry no lady folk or scientist types, which is pretty much the same thing, lowed in the bar when the aficionado's in town...
Don't you just love that word: Aficionado! Should be followed by Ole!
Nope. I am. My literary credentials and knowledge far outshine his.
What? Shininess is in the eye of the beholder isn't it? And you've never met my credentials.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:45pm PT
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re: (a) problem solving (b) outstanding problem solving strategist
You and I thrown down in a jungle, Survivor style. Imagine that. I'd pay $10000 to go up against you and to see what kind of a problem solving strategist you are A to Z. One that would excel? Based on all your postings, I don't believe it for a second. I'd take up the challenge in a second, lol!!
But what do I know, I'm just a HATER.
Bristling with HATRED of religion.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit = meltdown
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