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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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BlueBlocr wrote
In conclusion, i believe free-will hasn't anything to do with the conscious thought!. Free-Will, expressed by the individual has everything to do with changing the "wisdom" provided by the Subconscious. Thus enabling a new expression of emotion thru the Conscious mind.
Thank you.
Would you consider "intuition" expressed by the individual an expression of the subconscious? Your description of changing the "wisdom" of the Subconscious sounds a lot like inspiration to me. I am wondering if new expressions are perhaps like epiphanies.
If I understand, I think you are saying that free will manifestations might be readily identified because these manifestations challenge the old paradigms in ways that shift our emotional response and awareness old paradigm concept.
Thank you
feralfae
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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What is it, please, since not a fractal?
A fractal is a natural phenomenon or a mathematical set that exhibits a repeating pattern that displays at every scale (Wiki)
Fractals are generated by iterations of a single function in the complex plane. My image arises from "iterating", in theory, an infinite number of functions. In practice I usually iterate about 100 distinct functions on a tight grid of points on the plane.
;>)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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If I understand, I think you are saying that free will manifestations might be readily identified because these manifestations challenge the old paradigms in ways that shift our emotional response and awareness old paradigm concept.
YES. yes, yes.
What ARE we to say of one's intuition, or commonsense? Or even to draw deeper to dreams. Are they not screams from the subconscious to the conscious?
And when we lend to them, do we not feel comforted in our own skin?
Compared to when we're obtuse...
and we should stop there and ponder
Selah
but socially, as a village, let us consider slavery. It took a conscious-will to abort a man owning another man. Then on the material aspect. Then again to the subconscious level. Or visa-versa??
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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'Predetermined Mimes'
My time is not free,
I give it away all the time,
If my will is not free,
It compels me to rhyme,
Then why do I jest,
At the drop of a dime?
Or step on a crack,
Though I know its no crime,
Its near one A M,
What the hell is this lime,
Doing in my bad poem?
Who let in a mime?
-bushman
02/08/2015
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I don't think my consciousness can influence my subconscious brain.
Lol. You been eating the wrong mushrooms.
This freewill talk is all good but it does seem that some have more "freewill" than others. Is there a cost?
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Free Things Rates:
Free Time, $125 an hour.
Free Lunch, out of stock.
Free Will, $275 an hour.
Freedom, priceless.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Has anyone here read Anton Chekhov's The Bet?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I place memory in the subconscious.
Do you think the conscious mind has any control over recall of memory?
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WBraun
climber
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moosedrool should try convincing Andrzej what he just said is true.
moosedrool will fail .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I don't think my consciousness can influence my subconscious brain.
----
These are very broad terms and when tossed around willy nilly like that, they lack the precision to really mean much, in my opinion.
What is required to get jiggy with this is a direct experience that shows you that conscious thought can directly influence unconscious and subconscious functioning. The old "mind over matter" rigamarol.
Any simple biofeedback exercise can show you as much. What makes this tricky is that part of the process is putting attention on what is ususally going on automatically and unconsciously.
For example, when you start getting rattled out on the lead, you can consciously slow down and deepen your breathing and dial down your sympathetic nervous system and start to decellerate a little. Here, you've simply made conscious your breathing and nervous system functioning, and can start to direct it - a process that takes time to master, for obvious reasons.
Part of the boon of the experiential adventures is that you come to see the ways consciousness works on the meta level, and can get dialed in on funcioning that is lost on a reductionistic look at objective functioning. If you want to understand consciousness, you have to work both ends - objective functioning, AND meta-conscious functioning. Awareness is the bridge between the two.
The issue of free will is tricky because we have little control over what arises in consciousness, but an increasing ability to control what we do with the geyser of impuleses, thoughts, feelings and so forth that arise in our "Q Field," or field of awareness. You can start to get a feel of how this process works by simply sitting still and not gong with the impulses that arise - to itch that, to move this limb, to attach to this thought of feeling.
Interesting stuff.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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The Duck: But only knowing and complete engagement 24/7 are two different things .....
Best thing said here. Oh so true. There is so much that we think we “know,” but such knowing is only conceptualizing. How many times has Largo pointed out in these pages that the map is not the territory? The topo is not the climb. Conceptualizing is fun, and easy; real knowing (“complete engagement” that abides) is everything—literally.
HFCS: "One question: How do you know you have or do not have Free Will?"
More generally, how do you know anything? “Beliefs,” you mean. Conceptualizations. Beliefs we can argue about indefinitely because they are incomplete, a matter of degree of “fit.” There is only a sense of statistics in beliefs.
Bryan: All of the evidence I have ever seen supports the theory that we live in a clockwork universe governed by cause and effect.
Scientifically, you’re wrong. Any evidence properly analyzed scientifically can only falsify one theory when compared to another—and it only does so incompletely, provisionally, perhaps only statistically. But not soundly, not fully, not lock-down airtight absolutely. Can’t prove anything other than your own consciousness. In the end, conceptualizing experience will only lead you to beliefs.
There are probably an infinite number of alternative explanations about “what is what” in reality, and there is no way that I know that anyone could “prove” or even test one against all the others. How could one? It would require the biggest correlation matrix, structural model, and MANOVA imaginable (and even bigger than that). If you think you can articulate / say what reality is, you’re jumping to conclusions. We’re all doing that.
It would seem to be imminently reasonable to be far more skeptical of everything we think we know, rather than simply criticize traditional or old-school religion.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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largo contends the conscious can affect the unconscious, offering his personal experience as all the proof necessary.
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Wrong again, Dingbat. As I usually do, I invite anyone and everyone to find out for themselves. Simply try any basic biofeedback or neurofeedback protocol and know what I'm talking about - as millions of others have done. DO NOT take my word as "all the proof necessary." Find out for yourself.
Are you contending that conscious thought or intention can have no effect on the unconscious? Have you ever observed how your thinking actually unfolds, the actual process? For example, when you are trying to remember something, and hold the conscious intention of remembering a certain girl, say, what do you observe happening?
This is all basic stuff. No voodoo. No "magic."
JL
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I don't think my consciousness can influence my subconscious brain.
When you think in terms of the mind as a bio-mechanical-chemical device lodged in the brain, you hit a dead end, or go down a rabbit hole so deep that no one has found the bottom yet. In these terms you are how you are and nothing can be done about it.
Unravelling the subconcious mind from a purely subjective view is the subject of the book Dianetics. This has worked well for me as well as many other people.
If you go with the current "brain theories" of mind forget about "free will." How does a bio-chemical reaction have free will?
If you just let go of the "brain theories" and look at life force as the living entity "I" you can begin to work with a process of examaniation that gradiently increases an individual's "free will" by effectively disassembling the subconcious. It's quite a rush.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Scientifically, you’re wrong... Wrong again, Dingbat... just let go of the "brain theories"...
What a freak show we have here!
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WBraun
climber
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HFCS -- "What a freak show we have here!"
You and moosedrool can extract your individual brain chemicals and pour them in each of your brains.
Then moosedrool will become HFCS and HFCS will become the drooling moose all while remaining in their original bodies.
Make the fuking experiment ya big scientist !!!!!
Rolls eyes .....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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'On Trading Intellectual Barbs in the Usual Manner'
So not to exclude anyone,
But least of all ourselves,
We shall exclude no one at all,
And take to task from dusty shelf,
The topic that is goading us,
Or calls us from a reverie,
So full of loaded questions that,
Contain insulting repartee,
We call out all participants,
Whichever is the circumstance,
To try and set our views askance,
As though our minds had ants in pants,
And with these thoughts might we retire,
Impugned and requisite our ire,
But we field and rally our desire,
With, "Liar Liar, Pants on Fire!"
-bushman
02/08/2014
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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As someone who has put in the time and had the experience, I will add my voice to those who say the conscious mind can influence, control, and yes cleanse the unconscious. That's what the real spiritual life is about. Otherwise we are just robots going through life reacting according to our previous programming.
There are many techniques for learning how this can be done. Lucid dreaming is one, meditation, chanting, affirmations, inspirational art, music, and ritual, and yes pure old rational reasoning all have their place.
In the western intellectual tradition, rationalizing the unconscious has fallen to psychology mainly with dozens of different schools of psychotherapy each with their own techniques.
As pointed out many times however, recognizing and understanding one's reflexive emotions does not necessarily give one the ability to change them. For that, most people require techniques that work on the unconscious mind directly. Thus, in the name of secularism, psychology has adopted and relabeled many of these techniques, one example being bio feedback.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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So there you have it... Jan is cleansed and enlightened... and I am (along with the blond in above pic) "just" a robot. I can live with that.
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