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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"You are jumping to all sorts of conclusions about how I am approaching this issue." -Ward
Ward, hardly.
Well now. Which is a tidy way of saying " there is no current proof only reasonable arguments primarily because the outcome of these processes are not always predictable"
Of course "proof" is a function of the standard. A mathematical standard? Okay. I'll grant that. But a laboratory proof. Sure there is. Sure they are. They're everywhere.
Case closed.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Again , which is a way of announcing that proponents of mechanistic determinism merely have " compelling arguments" at this stage--- as Jgill was precise enough to note.
I am not making any other case for any other viewpoint or position. Capiche?
To say, without proof, that all things are predictable is a statement of faith.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I don't know about that. Free will works for me.
Being a biochemical response does not.
Looking out the rear window of life speeding forward one could get the idea that no one is driving.
It you want to drive, look out the front window and decide where to go.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Looks like our subconscious mind makes all the decisions
and why would that dismiss FW?
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John M
climber
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How do you know you have or do not have Free Will?
feralfae
There is no proof one way or the other. Like God, free will is unlimited, and neither can be proved in the physical. If will were purely mechanical, then it would be limited by the mechanics of the physical and thus it would not be free will. So.. like ones belief in spirit, one finds their belief in free will through discernment of the heart. And that discernment is a matter of faith. If it rings true, then one acts on that.
For those who do not believe in spiritual things, then everything is physical. God is spirt and one must worship him in spirit and in truth. For this who do not believe in spirit, then they are confined by the physical and thus must define everything according to the physical. The physical limited being can not understand the spirit/unlimited being. For who can know the mind of God.
There is no proof of God and there will never be physical proof of free will. One can see it and experience it in the world around them and in ones heart, but one can't prove it through physical means. One can only prove it in ones heart. Believe what you will.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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It's not that interesting debating "one note Johnnies" on these subjects. -Ward
lol
Well, anytime you'd like to open it up, go wild and strike some melodies in the mechanistic processes of glycolysis or replication or acetamenophen metabolism or even a simple chemical rx like Fe +o2 =Fe2O3; or else some electronic circuit design, simple or complex, or two battling chess engines... just give me a shout, m'kay?
.....
O golly, look at those additional posts... steeped in scientific acumen fer sher... I think that cues an exit.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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TMoosedrool:
The conscious brains of the subjects in the NS experiments I previously cited had no conscious "control" of their actions and therefore free will played no part in their reaction---even though they assumed their free will determined their action.
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023a.html
If on the other hand you are suggesting that the conscious cerebral brain can exercise absolute control over processes arising in the lower brain ,then that is a separate matter. I'm just guessing , but I would think the cerebrum is not hard wired to dominate all or even most neuro processes, conscious or otherwise---but rather it is sympathetically wired to "get along" and play nice with the unconscious content of the lower brain ; minus its integrative executive control functions notwithstanding.
Even many of those integrative functions are controlled by the 'middle men 'of the brain, such as the Limbic system. It is known that many psychopaths have deficiently undersized Amygdala--hence their inability to process emotion adequately; as well as developmentally to set up schema for the recognition and empathy with emotions in other people
If this situation were a matter of conscious control then of course all the psychopath need do would be to close his eyes, wish real hard, and when he opened them he would miraculously be capable of genuine tears, love, and compassion. Unfortunately we know this is not how things go---at least not currently.
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WBraun
climber
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HFCS says
"What continuously amazes me is how comfortable vast numbers of people are with their claims
when inside themselves they must know full well just how little experienced they are in the subject."
That's you describing your own self.
You reveal your own hypocrisy ......
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Ahem . . .
I did not ask for your opinion of Free Will, nor your variety of theoretical approaches, but rather I ask:
"One question: How do you know you have or do not have Free Will?"
How do you, one individual thinking human, know you have Free Will?
How do you,one individual thinking human, know you do not have Free Will?
Just you, and I have no argument with your answer, but am asking the question to get a sense of how we humans perceive our own efficacy or symbiosis or dependence. The subject, when discussed as an individual sense of life and self, might enhance our own synaptic activity on the subject. It may be that humans, so constituted with language and the ability to alter synaptic patterns (No one disputes that aspect any longer, I should imagine.) need only learn to carry on a discourse that, one hopes, might result in some meta-discussion of the concept of Free Will.
JGill, beautiful fractal, thank you for the lovely graphic, but . . . How do you, JGill, know you have or do not have Free Will? You, yourself.
I am not looking for consensus, but, rather, looking for observations, whether subjective or objective, that might be considered as demonstrating FW or its absence in your unique life, on an individual, human level.
Spider, thank you for your response.
And here I am, pondering my own response to this question, because, while I know I have Free Will, I am less certain of how I know it. And I am not certain how it is bounded, if at all.
Does FW's existence have a logical basis?
Is FW purely a subjective sense of my being-ness?
How does my Free Will manifest in my life and on Earth? How do I prove this?
Are all those events that I attribute to FW actually only coincidences?
How does Free Will differ from self-responsibility?
Lots of questions running through my thoughts. But I am only asking the one of individuals here: How do you know you have or do not have Free Will?
feralfae
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WBraun
climber
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The living entity only has free will when engaged in true real spiritual consciousness and life.
You and me are toast and do not have it.
I'm a knucklehead just you.
The only difference is I know what is.
But only knowing and complete engagement 24/7 are two different things .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"they must know just how little experienced they are..."
Silly boy,
every time you come here you should appreciate the fact that these science-related subjects and debates are not ufc matches - it means you can post and strut and just go on and on and on with your bs... and on and on... and never have to tap out.
Silly boy is lucky boy, eh? ;)
.....
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WBraun
climber
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it means you can post and strut and just go on and on and on with your bs
Why are you bullsh!ting again now.
You're strutting your huge azz ego again.
ME ME ME ME is HFCS
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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How do you,one individual thinking human, know you do not have Free Will?
All of the evidence I have ever seen supports the theory that we live in a clockwork universe governed by cause and effect. All throughout history humans have appealed to supernatural explanations for those effects which had no apparent cause. Earthquakes, crop failures, meteor showers, virtually every illnesses known to man... But time after time, the supernatural forces have been displaced by physical causes founded on a handful of natural laws. This is just as true for the field of biology as it is for the field of physics.
So how can this hypothesis of Free Will to fit in a clockwork universe? For example, when did Free Will emerge in the evolution of the nervous system? That is, when did a clump of cells stop operating based on the laws of chemistry, and instead, start acting of their own accord? Not to mention, Free Will wouldn't even be favored by natural selection because the ability to make decisions with no prior causes would most likely be disadvantageous to an organism.
For Free Will to make sense, it requires a supernatural explanation: Humans have a "soul"! Or, consciousness operates outside of the material realm! But with every advance in neurobiology, new light is shed on the mystery of consciousness, and the arguments for supernatural explanations drop away. It's not really surprising that Free Will is one of the final dominoes to fall before the clockwork universe; it is, I think, a belief which is difficult to let go of.
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WBraun
climber
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But with every advance in neurobiology, new light is shed on the mystery of consciousness, and the arguments for supernatural explanations drop away.
Of course they do when all your science is only operating and measuring on the material plane.
The material plane is the inferior energy of God.
The spiritual energy is what runs the material energy.
The instruments for measuring by modern science are all material and ultimately defective in that they are limited.
Only the unlimited spiritual soul can measure both material and spiritual energies.
Modern science is stuck on the material plane in ignorance, in false ego, in scientism, in arrogance and ultimately in poor fund of knowledge
speculating and theorizing that the material energies and plane are all in all and there's nothing beyond that.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I am saying that free will is an illusion.
Is that because you don't think that free will can arise in a physical system?
I don't think my consciousness can influence my subconscious brain.
Is memory conscious or subconscious?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I am not looking for consensus, but, rather, looking for observations, whether subjective or objective, that might be considered as demonstrating FW or its absence in your unique life, on an individual, human level.
well i have no big words, only experience. So i'll try to be short. Since birth, i was raised by a father who HATED ni**ers! i mean he really hated black people, and so did many of his cohorts. i was raised in this "villages'" "Truth's" of loving to hate black's well into my 20's. So, this was deeply rooted and concreted into my subconscious where my conscious mind could laugh at any black joke, or become feeling offended when hearing of a "black" becoming prosperous, or doing something positive.
My conscious mind was had a VERY predictive outcome when confronted with a blackperson's experience!
IE, if he did good, i hated it. If he did bad, i loved it.
To wrap up. Now, i love Obama, LeBron James, Beyonce', etc. ANy color if their doing positive!
In conclusion, i believe free-will hasn't anything to do with the conscious thought!. Free-Will, expressed by the individual has everything to do with changing the "wisdom" provided by the Subconscious. Thus enabling a new expression of emotion thru the Conscious mind.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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For "my" idea of free-will, i could also point at Fruity.
He being raised in a 'loving' environment, loving religion. He now has takin upon himself to hate all things religious!
Determined??
If that's not FW, then...???
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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JGill, beautiful fractal, thank you for the lovely graphic, but . . . How do you, JGill, know you have or do not have Free Will? You, yourself
Not a fractal.
To demonstrate free will requires you demonstrate free will.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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JGill,
What is it, please, since not a fractal?
To demonstrate free will requires you demonstrate free will.
Ah, yes, true. Thank you. Elegant.
feralfae
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WBraun
climber
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If you have no free will, then you are a stone.
Stone has no free will.
Atheist all want to be stone due to their poor fund of knowledge.
The gross materialists are like the color blind.
No matter how hard they look they will not see color until their eyes are cured of their disease.
Color is the variegatedness of both material and spiritual worlds .......
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