Why Are Republicans WRONG about EVERYTHING?

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Messages 1 - 1997 of total 1997 in this topic
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 15, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
Tens of thousands of reasons have been listed. Tens of thousands of reasons remain to be listed.

For the original creator of this thread:

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 15, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
Indeed! Spew on! da chief.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 15, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
Does this mean the Republicans were not wrong about everything...? Nice photo bomb The Chief...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 15, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
Thanks for the continuance, dirt.

F, where-ever you are, thanks for the outlet(s) to this never-answered, yet blatantly obvious question.

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
Is that Ted Croooz?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 15, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
Chief, you and blueblocr oughta have a nice circle jerk.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Oct 15, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
WTF, did Craig get Fryed? Won't be the same without such talent.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 15, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
The Chief...Dr. F will be back...Don't get on top of your sedan and do the blue velvet celebration jig...rj
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 15, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
Who cares...Just watch...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 16, 2014 - 06:04am PT
lapdogs:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/reporters-say-white-house-sometimes-demands-changes-to-press-pool-reports/2014/09/23/e5e6fec8-42d9-11e4-9a15-137aa0153527_story.html


guess this proves where the faux news actually comes from


winston smith is dead
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 06:25am PT
Sketch gives the perfect response to bookworm.
MisterE

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 16, 2014 - 07:01am PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 16, 2014 - 07:07am PT
more government health care:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2791744/origami-condoms-michelle-obama-gardening-games-poop-throwing-chimps-national-institutes-health-cried-poor-ebola-money-wacky-research.html#ixzz3GBtlE2iL


lib response: more government health care

winston smith is dead
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 16, 2014 - 07:48am PT
is this thread approved by dr f?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 16, 2014 - 07:49am PT
Progressive's response: Single payer health care. Get the For Profit out of the system (however unlikely that might be).


MisterE, that is Perfect. Any chance you can turn those ants into clowns?
WBraun

climber
Oct 16, 2014 - 08:25am PT
Dumbest and stupidest thread on the the internet.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 16, 2014 - 08:28am PT
what happend dr f*#ktards threads?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 16, 2014 - 09:06am PT
It's all Locker's fault.

You're still new enough here Moose that you don't realize that "It's all Locker's fault" is the basic underlying premise to Supertopo itself. That it is so fundamental that it goes without saying.

I even posted a TR on that subject about a hundred years ago, titled "It's all Locker's fault." I think he even replied, agreeing that, indeed, everything was his fault.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 16, 2014 - 10:40am PT
^^^^
Following in his father's footsteps....40% of his views are very intriguing with wide popular support, but the other 60% are so whacknut crazy you just can't get behind the guy.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 16, 2014 - 11:29am PT
What ever happened to fatso?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 16, 2014 - 11:41am PT
He got the axe. Did some weird shite behind the scenes, too. Probably deserved it.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 16, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
ok, that's all well and good, but... how about evidence to the fact of the OP...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Would any of you republican fools follow this mans advice?

Taking advice from anyone this well tended to this well follicly and dermatologically who also makes millions can only benefit him.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 16, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
I like the way he references Katrina. Kinda ironic, considering the title of this thread.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 17, 2014 - 03:51am PT
libs promote diversity and hypocritical hilarity ensues...


student is accepted to ALL female wellesly college and promptly declares she is actually a man (“masculine-of-center genderqueer” to be exact) and is warmly welcomed...new male/former female student at ALL female wellesly college applies to be "multicultural affairs coordinator" to promote a “culture of diversity” on campus...diversity promoting students at ALL female wellesly college declare new male/former female student's application to be "inappropriate" because “Having men in elected leadership positions undermines the idea of this being a place where women are the leaders”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/magazine/when-women-become-men-at-wellesley-college.html?_r=0


why are libs so hateful? will eric holder investigate? will barry speak?


winston smith is dead
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 17, 2014 - 05:51am PT
how government spends your health care tax money:

"...the agency has spent $2,873,440 trying to figure out why lesbians are obese, and $466,642 on why fat girls have a tough time getting dates. Another $2,075,611 was spent encouraging old people to join choirs.

Millions have gone to “text message interventions,” including a study where researchers sent texts to drunks at the bar to try to get them to stop drinking. The project received an additional grant this year, for a total of $674,590.

The NIH is also texting older African Americans with HIV ($372,460), HIV and drug users in rural areas ($693,000), HIV smokers ($763,519), pregnant smokers ($380,145), teen moms ($243,839), and meth addicts ($360,113). Text message interventions to try to get obese people to lose weight have cost $2,707,067.

The NIH’s research on obesity has led to spending $2,101,064 on wearable insoles and buttons that can track a person’s weight, and $374,670 to put on fruit and vegetable puppet shows for preschoolers.

A restaurant intervention to develop new children’s menus cost $275,227, and the NIH spent $430,608 for mother-daughter dancing outreach to fight obesity.

Sexual minorities have received a substantial amount from the NIH. The agency has now spent $105,066 following 16 schizophrenic LGBT Canadians around Toronto for a study on their community experiences.

The total for a project on why gay men get syphilis in Peru is now $692,697 after receiving additional $228,425 this year. The NIH is also concerned about postpartum depression in “invisible sexual minority women,” with a study that has cost $718,770.

Millions went to develop “origami condoms,” in male, female, and anal versions. The inventor Danny Resnic, who received $2,466,482 from the NIH, has been accused of massive fraud for using grant money for full-body plastic surgery in Costa Rica and parties at the Playboy mansion.

How transwomen use Facebook is the subject of another NIH study worth $194,788.

The agency has also committed $5 million to “mine and analyze” social media to study American’s attitudes toward drug abuse, and $306,900 to use Twitter for surveillance on depressed people.

The NIH has also spent $15,313,372 on cessation studies devoted to every kind of smoker imaginable. Current studies are targeted at American Indians ($2,899,954); Chinese and Vietnamese men ($424,875); postmenopausal women ($4,151,850); the homeless ($558,576);Korean youth ($94,580); young schizophrenics ($397,802); Brazilian women smokers ($955,368);Latino HIV-positive smokers($471,530); and the LGBT community ($2,364,521).

Yale University is studying how to get “Heavy Drinkers” to stop smoking at a cost of $571,799. Other projects seek to use Twitter to provide “social support to smokers” ($659,469), and yoga ($1,763,048) as a way to quit.

An NIH project studying sighs cost taxpayers $53,282.

On Tuesday, Health and Human Services (HHS) had to outsource efforts at an Ebola vaccine to the Baltimore-based Profectus BioSciences Inc. The company will receive $8.6 million to research and test their vaccine, a fraction of NIH funding that went to the above projects."


lib response: more government spending
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 06:38am PT
So the government spends a few million dollars investigating various ways to get people to stop smoking, and you get all worked up?

Get a life, dood.

(BTW, smoking related health problems costs BILLIONS.)

(Oh, and does that right wing source you cite actually dig into the science of those studies, or does it just perform a cursory glance, looking for studies that sound silly but really might be scientifically sound?)

And speaking of billions...

Where is your outrage over the hundreds of billions of dollars your chickenhawk buddies flushed down the shitter in pursuit of that winning cause, the Iraq War?






(Crickets...)
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 07:12am PT
Was I talking to you scratch?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 17, 2014 - 07:20am PT
Sketch usually hears voices when he's wearing the magic underwear...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 07:42am PT
Sketch you are a tiresome little bore.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 17, 2014 - 08:26am PT
Was I talking to you scratch?


Dude... your talking to all of us....
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 17, 2014 - 09:10am PT
barry's spox assures us about ebola there are many responsible people responsible for their responsibility but these responsible people are not responsible for the responsibilities of the other responsible people because that would be irresponsible


so, now, barry names a "ebola czar" to be responsible for overseeing our response to ebola; his qualifications for this new responsibility are quite responsible:

"A former chief of staff to Vice President Joe Biden and also to then-Vice President Al Gore, Klain is currently president of Case Holdings and General Counsel of Revolution, an investment group. He has clerked for the U.S. Supreme Court and headed up Gore’s effort during the 2000 Florida recount."


of course, we should not confuse the responsibilities of this responsible person with the responsibilities of this other responsible person:

"the woman who heads that office, Dr. Nicole Lurie, explains that the responsibilities of her office are “to help our country prepare for, respond to and recover from public health threats.” She says her major priority is to help the country prepare for emergencies and to “have the countermeasures—the medicines or vaccines that people might need to use in a public health emergency. So a large part of my office also is responsible for developing those countermeasures.”

Or, as National Journal rather glowingly puts it, “Lurie’s job is to plan for the unthinkable. A global flu pandemic? She has a plan. A bioterror attack? She’s on it. Massive earthquake? Yep. Her responsibilities as assistant secretary span public health, global health, and homeland security.” A profile of Lurie quoted her as saying, “I have responsibility for getting the nation prepared for public health emergencies—whether naturally occurring disasters or man-made, as well as for helping it respond and recover. It’s a pretty significant undertaking.” Still another refers to her as “the highest-ranking federal official in charge of preparing the nation to face such health crises as earthquakes, hurricanes, terrorist attacks, and pandemic influenza.”


one thing is for sure, you can never have too many responsible people in responsible positions to avoid barry bearing any responsibility for any of the responsibilities of the presidency
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 17, 2014 - 09:20am PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 17, 2014 - 09:22am PT
All Dr. F threads and posts are now gone forever?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 09:34am PT
We probably wouldn't need an Ebola Czar if the Republicans would allow appointment of a Surgeon General.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 17, 2014 - 09:39am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 10:13am PT
No, no, TGT, NOT Sturgeon General, you oaf!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 10:52am PT
Any ideas how to fix that?

Yeah:
Dump the bosses off your back.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 11:23am PT
That's a good start, Sketch.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 17, 2014 - 11:42am PT
Sketch, that kinda Progressive talk from you is freaking me out.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 11:43am PT
Why does Sketch want to punish the The Job Creators?

He's a commie. Somebody get bluering on the blower.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
But not hotdogs, eh, you commie fink.

DMT is spot on.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
Dingus, that the most idiotic post of the year, you festering pile of parrot droppings.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 17, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
Campaign finance reform will have to be a grass roots effort. The foxes have been in the henhouse too long. Democrats are as filthily corrupt as the Republicans. They're both cowardly on national defense. Voting party line is a vote for status quo.

Democratic party is corrupt. Republican party is corrupt.

Both are rotten to the core. You sonsabitches wanna bray about your party, BRAY TO YOUR PARTY.

Clean your sh#t up before you start throwing your feces over the fence.

Yes this means YOU, PARTISAN....

DMT

Well Said!!!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 17, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/17/the_daily_show_destroys_sam_brownbacks_failed_conservative_experiment/

“The Daily Show” destroys Sam Brownback’s failed conservative experiment

On Thursday evening’s edition of “The Daily Show,” Jessica Williams reported from Kansas, where an unwieldy political experiment affecting the lives of millions had just been completed.

The experiment was Gov. Sam Brownback’s Republican utopia: Brownback instituted policies leading to the expansion of gun rights, restrictions on abortion, reduced welfare, increased voter registration scrutiny, and much lower taxes, with any owner of a business totally exempt.

The results of the experiment are in!

Wint Winter Jr., former state senator, said: “It’s just been an abject failure … I wish it had worked, it’d be great! This is really an experiment gone horribly wrong.”

“How bad could it be?” Williams asked.

“Credit downgrades, deficit spending, cuts in education, cuts in highways. That’s what I call a train wreck.”

“Are you sure you’re a Republican?” asked Williams. “Because you don’t sound like one. Name three hip-hop artists and Eminem does not count.”

 The republicans are going down on themselves...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Gary, your girlfriend is a REPUBLICAN!!!

That's it. Now it's personal! Moose, I'm reporting you to Ron.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 17, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
the evuhl rich? in congress, they're mostly libs


http://news.yahoo.com/party-rich-congress-democrats-205634504--election.html
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Oct 17, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
Ah,, the fresh new Republican thread!

The WRONGNESS dogpile.


Sadly I have nothing useful to contribute. I was gonna say something but forgot what it was.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
Love, rain o'er me!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 17, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
This just in, and it is terrible news.

The Republican state of Tennessee has just paroled the murderer of Stringbean and his wife. How could they do that? F*#king Republican bleeding hearts!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 18, 2014 - 02:14am PT
the utter incompetence of the barry administration (and their utter contempt for you) expressed in a single response to a simple question: can you get ebola by sitting next to an infected person on a bus? let the games begin:


“I think there are two different parts of that equation. The first is, if you’re a member of the traveling public and are healthy, should you be worried that you might have gotten it by sitting next to someone? And the answer is no.”

“Second, if you are sick and you may have Ebola, should you get on a bus? And the answer to that is also no. You might become ill, you might have a problem that exposes someone around you.”


hey, with guys like this (i.e. like barry, biden, harry, and nancy) in charge who wouldn't demand even more government?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 18, 2014 - 02:31am PT
the epitome of government regulation:

http://dailysignal.com/2014/10/10/unbelievable-city-demands-girl-tear-playground-received-make-wish-foundation/

lib response: more government
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 18, 2014 - 06:18am PT
So booky- please enlighten me on just exactly how a person on a bus would get infected, and how this deviates from our contemptable fearless leader's assessment. Apparently you have advanced medical knowledge that our most esteemed doctors do not.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 18, 2014 - 07:20am PT
I remember too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9EAUms4XIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ETIy8fi0g
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 18, 2014 - 08:13am PT
I think his point had to do with President Obama's all too common evasiveness.

I'd like booky to respond please. President Obama answered the question very well.

But perhaps I missed booky's point because when booky gets on a bus, it's free BJs for everyone. Then yes, he might have something to worry about...

I don't know how all you scared foxes live your lives. Do you spend your days living in a hermetically sealed padded room with no furniture, encased in bubble wrap? Ever hear of Hepatitis? West Nile virus? Meningitis? Tuberculosis? Drunk drivers? Whacked-out pissed off people with access to firearms?... Just keep watching fox and they'll tell you when it's safe to come out.

let's not overlook how this Ebola situation is another example of President Obama leading from behind.

Please enlighten me and give an example of what you think (I know that's a bit of a stretch, but you can do it, I have hope) he should do and how that's going to significantly affect the average US citizen.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 18, 2014 - 08:38am PT
Fox news...The Fox keeping the chickens in the hen house...
WBraun

climber
Oct 18, 2014 - 09:59am PT
Wow .

All started over again and these politards are saying the same stupid sh!t they said in the previous 80,000 posts.

They are insane and beyond insane.

Lobotomized !!!!!

And Jeb (Drug Don) Bush will be your next retarded POTUS for two terms.

It's already been setup and rigged.

You people are stupid .......
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 18, 2014 - 10:12am PT
the lib plan for cutting health care costs:


http://news.investors.com/politics-obamacare/101714-722269-obamacare-bronze-plan-premiums-to-jump-in-2015.htm



oh, the irony...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 18, 2014 - 10:15am PT
Insurance companies have decided to raise rates?

SHOCKING NEWS!


This kinda sh#t wouldn't happen under the Public Option....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 18, 2014 - 10:19am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 Did he go too far?

"Some time fear does not have to be real to be powerful, and often we don't have to have facts to back up our fears..." - word of clarification from a republican mouthpiece

EDIT: apogee -
Insurance companies have decided to raise rates?

SHOCKING NEWS!


This kinda sh#t wouldn't happen under the Public Option....

 Can we expect a republican to ever reverse any of this?
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 18, 2014 - 10:24am PT
Well I guess that answers the request. Funny how when pressed for specifics, conservatives just change the subject. Seems kinda like an inability to lead by example.

My take on Pres Obama is that unemployment is the lowest in 6 years, the stock market is hugely up (despite last week's roller coaster), gas is heading to below $3/gal, healthcare is available for millions of people who couldn't get it/afford it, people are largely free to marry the person they love, we have fewer kids coming home dead/with parts missing, working day & night to undo the trillions of dollars of damage & political shitestorm that the bush family left like an unflushed doogie for him,... The list goes on, and all of this accomplished while the repugnican'ts are actively waging a legislative blockade and propaganda war on him rather than come together in a meaningful bipartisan way to DO THEIR JOBS!

Thanks!
v v v v
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 18, 2014 - 10:25am PT
^^^^^
Wonderful summary.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 18, 2014 - 10:32am PT
The list goes on, and all of this accomplished while the repugnicant's are actively waging a legislative blockade and propaganda war on him rather than come together in a meaningful bipartisan way to DO THEIR JOBS!

^^^ Agreed ^^^ Agreed ^^^

 I fear that we are asking to much from a republican to ask them to do their jobs....

But, then I remember that republicans view their jobs as to stop government, and to this end they have made huge advances all while Obama did all that without them....

They are f*#king retarded to the core! (sorry for the indiscretion, I too am retarded in a way)
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 18, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
can't afford you deductible under barrycare? no problem, you can't see your doctor, anyway

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/unable-to-meet-the-deductible-or-the-doctor.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1


oh, the irony...
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
I didn't answer your question because... for the most part... you were just being an as#@&%e.

Sorry to offend your fragile sensibilities. I'm sure no one here could say the same thing about you...

But being caught up doesn't excuse poor monitoring of healthcare workers involved with infected patients. Infected healthcare workers on planes and cruises... WTF? Slack.

Yes, it's all his fault. He is from Kenya after all and he should personally know everyone aboard an outbound African flight, even if they lie about their health status.. We should just get rid of the CDC because Obama is an expert on medicine. Do you know anything about infectious disease besides what you hear on fox or breitbart? I've been working in healthcare for almost 30 years as a researcher and as a care provider. I think I have a grasp of what real threat this virus is. What are your creds?

The stock market has been constantly pumped up by the government since Obama took office. Coincidentally, last week's freefall ended after some soothing words from Fed President James Bullard (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

The stock market has been bouyed by the Fed since the big crash on bush's watch. Just interesting that it's done so much better under Obama's reign.

Falling oil prices may be good for consumers, but you gotta wonder what's behind the drop in demand (hint, hint).

Oooh! Conspiracy theory! Yes, it's all about the elections. Perhaps you might go on the google and find out what's really happening.

Real wages are no better than the were in April of '09 (at the bottom of the recession), even though corporate profits have skyrocketed.

Of course that depends on how you measure them. The WTI (wage trend index) has risen steadily since Q4 2013 and is projected to increase another 2% in 2015. Corporate profit reports are hugely skewed by the bailout.

And about healthcare now being available for millions of people who couldn't get it/afford it... does that explain the number of uninsured Americans was higher in the Feb '14 - April '14, than in 2013?

Don't know where you pulled that out of. The Commonwealth Fund reported in July 2014 that an additional 9.5 million people aged 19-64 had obtained health insurance, roughly 5% of the working-aged population. Gallup reported in July 2014 that the uninsured rate among adults 18 and over fell from 18.0% in Q3 2013 to 13.4% by Q2 2014. Rand Corporation had similar findings.

Gitmo is still open

Yes, that is a problem. He did promise. But I guess you expect him to be perfect on all fronts.

Iraq is seriously f*#ked up. Bush gets most of the blame. But Obama gets partial credit, too.

'Splain. British tried, Russians tried, Ghengis Khan tried. The genie's out of the bottle in the middle east and it was bush that broke it. Let's hear your plan and maybe you can email it to our fearless leader for his edification.

So, what you're really talking about is same sex marriage. I'm not sure what Obama had to do with it.

No, I'm talking about a president who has tried many, many times since Day 1 to reach a bipartisan consensus on matters important to the U.S. but has been blocked by a bunch of 12 year olds who have gone on record to say their Job #1 is to defeat President Obama, NOT to do what's best for the country. Get it?

As far as gay rights go, Obama has many times reaffirmed his belief that all citizens should be treated with respect and not discrimination. He did backtrack on his marriage stance, but that shows a leader who is willing to revisit the issue and change his views to support the majority of citizens.

Now all of a sudden the repugnican'ts are jumping on the bandwagon because they see theirs is a losing issue.

You want to live in a conservative utopia? Go to Syria and join up with ISL. They'll be happy to show you how to live under strict authoritarian rule.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 18, 2014 - 01:59pm PT

well, well

YOU just got OWNED

didn't you bubba?

lock, stock and barrel, OWNED

and why did this happen?


because more than anything else, you are factually ignorant, both uninformed and Misinformed, as is EVERY single Republican voting forum member who ever shot his mouth off on this thread

back to the third grade with you now
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 18, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
can't afford you deductible under barrycare? no problem, you can't see your doctor, anyway

LOL!


nice comment very true!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
Skeptimistic, well done.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Oct 18, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
That bears repeating MisterE (btw, you may have not gotten the memo, but alot of the really cool are going to the eMister format) :}



sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Oct 18, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
I just saw Pearl Jam in Detroit. Rocked it out for 3 hrs. No politics or any other bullsh#t. Probably one of their best shows. I don't think I was even exposed to Ebola either. ISIS even declined to show up.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 18, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
Jealous...
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Oct 18, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
32 song set list. Happy crowd. I was waiting for the splosions to start at any moment...
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 18, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
Sketchy, sketchy, sketchy... Please go ahead and refute my points. I won't mind, really. There are some pretty intelligent folk here on the left who can understand your points. Or are you just another parrot for the Koch Bros?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Oct 18, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
But, then I remember that republicans view their jobs as to stop government,

They only want to stop the part of government that they don't like while sucking off the government teat that they require.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 18, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
Obama Lunch

Sidwell Friends School:

Cauliflower Masala Soup
Roasted Vegetable & Israeli Couscous Salad
A Taste of India
Mixed Greens with Avocado & Sunflower Seeds
All-natural Chicken Curry
Vegetable Tikka Masala
Turmeric Roasted Carrots
Basmati Rice
Sliced Pineapple

Chickasha, Oklahoma public schools (under federal guidelines, aka Michelle Obama’s edict):


http://xbradtc.com/2014/10/16/obama-lunch/
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 18, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Why do republicans follow this guys every command?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 18, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
TGT, you can be a real wall-to-wall jerk sometimes.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 18, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
Dave, you misread it. Her kids are eating gourmet meals at an exclusive private school, while po'' folk in oklahoma have to eat scraps & Haliburton processed food out of styrofoam containers.

It ain't fair! I remember when the bush daughters had to go dumpster diving for their meals just to be an example for the nation! Oh wait, that was a dream.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 18, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
barry's legacy of failure in a paragraph:

"Of course you can keep your health coverage, and your doctor. And we’ll cover everyone while your premiums plummet. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda is “decimated” and these Islamic State guys are just the jayvee team. In fact (fact?), they’re not even Islamic — although they may not be quite as “secular” as the Muslim Brotherhood. Just extremists. (Extreme about what? Don’t ask.) Jihad is just a “purification of the self” . . . or, at most, “workplace violence.” Benghazi? A spontaneous “protest” incited by a video. The president was not told it was a terrorist attack . . . except by the secretary of defense right after it started — long before he responded by . . . going to Vegas, where he promptly announced al-Qaeda was “on the path to defeat.” Still, rest assured that the State Department’s top priority is the safety of American personnel . . . although we did reduce security in Benghazi after our facility was bombed. And rest assured that the Justice Department would never ever let guns walk . . . except for the thousands its Fast and Furious program transferred to violent gangs — who’ve used them in who knows how many crimes, including the murder of a Border Patrol agent. Still, at least there’s “not a smidgen of corruption” at the IRS, where citizens are harassed, evidence keeps disappearing, and the official at the center of it all takes the Fifth to avoid giving incriminating testimony. No matter. Just take heart that Ebola is not coming to the United States . . . um, well, if it does come there will be no outbreak . . . but, er, if there is an outbreak, we have careful protocols and health-care professionals fully trained to deal with it . . . and even if the protocols don’t work and the professionals don’t have adequate training, we’ll have a rigorous monitoring program for anyone who is exposed . . . or maybe a self-monitoring program for people who will isolate themselves . . . unless, of course, we tell them to go ahead and hop on a plane. Well, look, at least we can promise there won’t be a “serious” outbreak."


johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Oct 18, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
Goes both ways.

I'm not the one crying about to much government,
nor do I cry when I'm out voted.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 18, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 19, 2014 - 09:28am PT
libs still don't understand jefferson's nonconstitutional "separation of church and state":


http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/9364


winston smith is dead
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2014 - 09:34am PT
Nice source there, Bookie.

One point it glosses over is the fact they are also running a business--a chapel--performing ceremonies. It is hardly a church.


I know, it's a tough time for bigots like you, times are a changing and all that.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 19, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
the conservatives lie

[Click to View YouTube Video]

offering advice to an ignorant segment of the nation
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 19, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
Jingy..Those doosh nozzles are spraying the fertilizer that the 1% want to spread to protect their fragile tax breaks..
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Oh, ok Dixie.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 20, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
everything for the rich....

anything for the rich....

ebola for the stupid f*#kers who don't pick themselves up by the bootstraps and make millions like the rich do...

nothing is wrong...

this is normal...

return to sleep...


Edit rottingjohnny - True

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Oct 20, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
The Hitching Post is licensed as a for profit business, not a non-profit church.

That's an important detail when discussing whether or not the state has the right to compel them to adhere to anti-discrimination statutes.

Very important.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 20, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
every republican can suck my balls because they are ball suckers

[Click to View YouTube Video]

If you are republicon....... you are as pathetic as I am and just as worthless to humanity
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Oct 20, 2014 - 03:36pm PT

Oct 19, 2014 - 09:28am PT
libs still don't understand jefferson's nonconstitutional "separation of church and state":


http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/9364


winston smith is dead

Wait...
You are going to tell me that there are democrats running Cour D'alene?


Hahahaha.

http://www.hcn.org/issues/45.8/how-right-wing-emigrants-conquered-north-idaho

This is the tea party run amuck.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 20, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
After watching HBO's VICE: Season 2 episode 6 I can safely say that the knight in shining armor for the right has inadvertently (and with full knowledge and intent to do so) leaked/stolen/squeezed (taxation) billions of dollars a year from America for the last 30 years....

BASED ON THIS, I RIDICULE THE RIGHT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

yeah.... ?
Bad for America, huh?
How bad is this picture looking so far?
http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/cities/economics/how-much-money-states-make-marijuana-legalization/

Cannabis Cash: How Much Money Could Your State Make From Marijuana Legalization?
by Divya Raghavan on September 22, 2014 | posted in Cities, Economics
...
How much has Colorado made since legalizing marijuana? In the first six months of this year, the state collected $25,307,067 in taxes on the sales of marijuana. By June 2015, Colorado expects to collect up to $70 million—not very far off from our estimate of $78,157,904. Take a look at the chart to see how much each state could collect per year in sales taxes if the recreational and medical use of marijuana was made legal. Interested in future NerdWallet studies? Click here to have updates sent directly to your inbox.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

The most dangerous? Really?

Who told you that and why would you believe them?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Oh, I see... that's right... Nancy was big on the drugs... didn't she also make an astrological reader kind of famous for taking advice from her... instead of using her brain.



Yes... we can leave it up to the right to trample on our rights as humans in the United States.
[Click to View YouTube Video]

When will we start to see the actions of the right to be what they are... Limiting to human progress
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 21, 2014 - 10:49am PT
wait, didn't barry say a travel ban would be MORE dangerous for americans?


http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/homeland-security-announces-travel-restrictions-to-stall-ebola-outbreak-20141021



i guess this is proof he really does hate americans
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 21, 2014 - 11:00am PT
having sex with other people

booky

Oh what Liberalism hath wrought
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 21, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
The Hitching Post is licensed as a for profit business, not a non-profit church.

That's an important detail when discussing whether or not the state has the right to compel them to adhere to anti-discrimination statutes.

Very important.

That proves too much. I doubt that a law requiring a for-profit newspaper to publish any advertisement submitted with payment would pass Constituttional muster under the First Amendment, any more than the Couer D'Alene ordinance and threatened enforcement will. Explicit First Amendment freedoms trump the general ability of government to regulate business.

More importantly, the Constitution does not disappear when one engages in activity for pay. I doubt that any serious Constitutional scholar would find a law Constitutional that says, for example, that no practicing Muslim can practice medicine, sell cars, or engage in any other "public accommmodation." While too many on the far right and far left think that the First Amendment applies only to those with whom they agree, the Constitutional jusirsprudence still says otherwise.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 21, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
Pew study finds Rush Limbaugh least trustworthy news source
By Aaron Sharockman on Tuesday, October 21st, 2014 at 12:08 p.m.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2014/oct/21/pew-study-finds-rush-limbaugh-least-trustworthy-ne/


"PunditFact is tracking the accuracy of claims made on the five major networks using our network scorecards. By that measure, 61 percent of the claims fact-checked on Fox News have been rated Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire, the most among any of the major networks."


A Republican is an unreliable source of facts?

SHOCKING!

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 21, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
That Fox is full of sh#t is no surprise. You would have to have been living in a hole to not know that "fair and balanced" really means "lies."

That the rest of the major networks are only somewhat better is truly frightening. The best, CNN, is giving false info 22% of the time... Wow. My take away from this is that getting "accurate" information these days is a time consuming and difficult process, and none of the major media outlets are reliable.

As for the rest:

• 45 percent of the claims made on NBC and MSNBC rate Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire;
• 38 percent of the claims made on CBS rate Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire;
• 36 percent of the claims made on ABC rate Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire;
• 22 percent of the claims made on CNN rate Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 21, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
Interesting reading that shows repubs as corrupt.. but you all know that

The Best Investigative Reporting on Campaign Finance Since 2012

The 2012 elections shattered spending records, with outside groups such as super PACs, nonprofits, unions and corporations plowing an estimated $1.3 billion into federal campaigns. With this year's elections just two weeks away, we've rounded up some of the best investigative reporting on campaign finance. The list includes stories that provide fresh insight into what happened in 2012 and ones that get inside who's shelling out on campaigns this cycle. In addition, we've spotlighted a couple of ProPublica's stories on the subject.

John Swallow (born November 10, 1962) is a former Attorney General of Utah.[1] Just prior, he served as Chief Deputy Attorney General overseeing civil litigation. He is a member of the Republican Party.

Swallow has been a lawyer since 1990 and was a member of the Utah State House of Representatives from 1996-2002.

 So, he should know better... right?

A Campaign Inquiry in Utah Is the Watchdog's Worst Case, The New York Times, March 2014

John Swallow used to work as a lobbyist for a Utah payday-lending company. So when he decided to run for state attorney general, he turned to payday lenders to help finance his campaign. But Swallow was wary of the industry's sketchy reputation, Times reporter Nick Confessore wrote. "The solution: Hide the payday money behind a string of PACs and nonprofits, making it difficult to trace donations from payday lenders to Mr. Swallow's campaign." Swallow's tactics eventually triggered investigations by the Internal Revenue Service and the state, and Swallow resigned less than a year after his election.

Tea Party PACs Reap Money for Midterms But Spend Little on Candidates, The Washington Post, April 2014

Cutting wasteful government spending is a core tenet of the Tea Party movement. A Washington Post analysis, however, "found that some of the top national tea party groups engaged in this year's midterm elections have put just a tiny fraction of their money directly into boosting the candidates they've endorsed," the Post's Matea Gold wrote. The Senate Conservatives Fund, for instance, "paid a luxury interior design firm more than $52,000 last year to paint and decorate its Capitol Hill townhouse office."

This is only two of the stories
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 22, 2014 - 03:58am PT
libs and moral relativity:

calling a g-town law school student who wants other people to pay for her to have safe sex a slut is a moral outrage

a man stoning his own daughter for allegedly committing adultery is just another chance to show your tolerance

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2801575/isis-releases-sickening-video-clip-showing-syrian-woman-stoned-death-group-men-including-father.html



winston smith is dead
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 22, 2014 - 04:07am PT
honk if you love animals because your evuhl fossil fuel burning car is supporting ocean life while your sun and solar farms are killing critters faster than we can count

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/390850/oil-rigs-support-biodiversity-jonah-goldberg


oh, the irony...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 22, 2014 - 04:36am PT
remove nose, spite face:

"Norman L. Reimer, executive director of the lawyers group, acknowledged that the Koch name could alienate left-leaning groups, but said the right to counsel was an issue without a partisan bent."


evuhl kochs strike again; this time they're providing good lawyers to poor people...what evuhl will they do next? build another hospital?

i'm sure this will prompt another rant by harry...maybe even eric will investigate
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 22, 2014 - 06:23am PT
having sex with other people

booky

Oh what Liberalism hath wrought


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2014 - 07:12am PT
Bookie is one pissed off dude.

He's mad as hell and he ain't gonna take it no more!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 22, 2014 - 09:55am PT
So, Ron, did you send that guy $50? He'll give you the secret to success!
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Oct 22, 2014 - 10:48am PT
That proves too much. I doubt that a law requiring a for-profit newspaper to publish any advertisement submitted with payment would pass Constituttional muster under the First Amendment, any more than the Couer D'Alene ordinance and threatened enforcement will. Explicit First Amendment freedoms trump the general ability of government to regulate business.

More importantly, the Constitution does not disappear when one engages in activity for pay. I doubt that any serious Constitutional scholar would find a law Constitutional that says, for example, that no practicing Muslim can practice medicine, sell cars, or engage in any other "public accommmodation." While too many on the far right and far left think that the First Amendment applies only to those with whom they agree, the Constitutional jusirsprudence still says otherwise.

Your usually excellent analytical skills seem to depart when you discuss religion. Your analogy makes no sense.

That chapel is not a church, it is not a religion, it has no congregation and no associated religious entity, it performs civil wedding ceremonies which include the word "God", and is run by people with a religions opposition to gay marriage. The bible explicitly prohibits inter-racial marriage too, suppose those owners refused to perform an inter-racial marriage?

There are other rights involved here, this is not government regulation of business, or government regulation of religion, this is government ensuring equal protection under the law.

TE
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Oct 22, 2014 - 11:26am PT
obumbly is obviously steering us to the next big collapse.


ron you must really want these libs to leave supertopo!!!!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 22, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Trad Eddie, I was responding to the argument that the rights of an individual engaging in an activity for profit differ significantly from those of an individual engaging in an activity not for profit. I don't find that distinction nearly as compelling, on an individual level, as Tvash apparently does.

I agree that the real issue here is balancing the right to equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment with the rights to freedom of expression and to free exercise of religion under the First and Fourteenth Amendments.

Public accomomodation laws form an essential part of equal protection, but not without limits. I was unaware of any public accommodation case or law requiring, for example, a commercial artist to depict something contrary to that artist's beliefs until the Colorado wedding cake case, whose outcome remains to be seen.

In the case of The Hitching Post, I find the issue closer. If the proprietors are acting solely as persons licensed to officiate at civil wedding ceremonies, the case becomes overwhelmingly strong for Couer D'Alene. If they are being forced to act as pastors, on the other hand, that would be a clear First Amendment violation. No case, of which I am aware, has ever required someone to practice in a specific way that their religion holds to be obnoxious.

Note, however, that the issue doesn't hinge on profit or not-for-profit. Rather, it hinges on who the business purports to accommodate, and what is required in that accommodation. The Couer D'Alene ordinance assumes that officiating at a civil wedding ceremony is no more an expression of personal approval or disapproval whether the officiant is a pastor or the County Clerk. If, in contrast, The Hitching Post requires that any service performed adhere to specific religious guidelines, and the pastor/proprietors take appropriate measures to insure that adherence, we have a situation much closer to a regious rite than a public accommodation.

In a way, it reminds me of what lawyers are taught in professional responsibility classes, namely that "A lawyer is not a bus." This means that a lawyer is not required to take the case of everyone who comes seeking his or her services. Rather, a lawyer is free to decline a clase that the lawyer feels lacks merit, is unfair or opressive, or even one where the lawyer feels he can't get along with the client. The law limits the right only to the extent that lawyers may not refuse a representation of the disadvantaged or the oppressed solely for personal reasons that do not affect professional performance.

All of the pastors I know act the same way regarding officiating at a wedding. They reserve the right to decline to officiate if they believe doing so violates the principles of their religion, and insist on several counseling sessions with the would-be spice to make sure that the marriage is one that would be appropriate. Admittedly, though, all of those pastors only officiate as a representative of a church. If the Hitching Post will marry any heterosexual couple that is not already married to someone else, in the name of the State of Idaho rather than in the name of God, then I don't see the pastors acting as pastors. If they purport to marry in the name of God, I think Couer D'Alene has a problem.

John
crankster

Trad climber
Oct 22, 2014 - 01:17pm PT

Oct 22, 2014 - 08:56am PT
reading the secret passing of capitol gains control this am,, obumbly is obviously steering us to the next big collapse.

Ignore what you see! Ignore the facts! Listen to rightwing media! Be stupid!
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Oct 22, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
Trad Eddie, I was responding to the argument that the rights of an individual engaging in an activity for profit differ significantly from those of an individual engaging in an activity not for profit.

I agree that as a less contentious example, a catholic priest should not be 'forced' to marry a divorcee, but this case is different enough that such a comparison is not valid, and those who see it in the same light are falling for the right-wing spin intended by the original article. There appears to be no religious organization associated with this wedding chapel, if there was, it would fall under the religious exemption, so if the owners have such a sincere objection to gay marriage, they can close the doors, I'm not aware of any constitutional right to perform civil wedding ceremonies.

TE
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 22, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
From your last comment, TE, we analyze this case the same way. You just do it more succinctly.

john
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 22, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
calling a g-town law school student who wants other people to pay for her to have safe sex a slut is a moral outrage

 because the religious keep reminding me that they need to be told...

No g-town law student exists who wants other people to pay for her to have safe sex....

before you respond, please look back at what you claim to know about what you are writing... you may be misrepresenting some of the facts which may skew a big portion of your argument..

Sketch -
Interesting... I find the last 9 words in this piece to be telling when I ask what my republican lead congress has done for me lately?

"Let us accept our own responsibility for the future"

And then I'm reminded that the republican party is worthless and do not have the American people in their minds when committing their acts of congress...

The question I have is... once the election happens and another democrat or independent candidate wins... who is going to own the future this congress has doomed us to?


I say us... as I'm going to be here when this bill comes due!!!

the republlicans constantly ducking responsibility for their actions... in church... in the ballot box... in public office.... in the lines in the grocers market.....


Book
evuhl kochs strike again; this time they're providing good lawyers to poor people...what evuhl will they do next? build another hospital?

 all good deeds done by these ultra rich, ultra snob, f*#k-sticks have 0 integrity and the environment is included in the big beautiful pictures painted in the news by the ultra rich, ultra snob, f*#k-stick media... hell... its even showing up in climbing forum threads too...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
Scooch is an authority on whining.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 22, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Jingy - you're too much... using a quote on personal responsibility as a soapbox for whining about your own victimhood.

 funny you mention being a victim....

I can charactorize this congress as waging a war of sloth on the American people...

I, and the future generations, we are the victims of congress's inactivity...

But you are right.... I am not a victim...
I'm an American... and Americans are never victims, they are always better than everyone else...

Is that better? Would you approve that message?

Rewrite it all you want... We are all victims of this inept republican lead congress
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 23, 2014 - 07:03am PT
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 23, 2014 - 09:17am PT
Watching this mornings Democracy Now programing reminds me of why republicans are wrong about everything...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

There was a discussion on the 4 Blackwater contractors who were found guilty in their trial(s)

These guys... were guilty.

One paper's write up....

Another paper's story

And another paper's story

yet... another

I say they were guilty of being rich arrogant pricks who happened into a job that required them to behave like animals, barbarians, and criminals... Yet not a word will be uttered about maybe getting rid of the notion that America can just run around at will and indiscriminately kill people of other nations.

All I have to go by, for the private army's to exist, is their word that they are doing good.

Just remember, freedom is just a name change away when you are a corrupt criminal organization with lawyers on your payroll... and you are American... so no one will question you... you may do as you please.


Republicans got us into that war. Republicans loosened the rules on everything from your drinking water to how to engage with the enemy on a battlefield and the interrogation room.

Yes, democratic statesmen were complicit in all of it... but what else could they have been at the time... "You are either with us or against us" means you sit the f*#k down and shut the f*#k up.... when republicans are in town...

But these should be the times when we ask the most questions or out elected officials, in my opinion...

But of course, this will never happen... the questions will never come. Those who have what they need are not going to upset the applecart, and those who do not have have little choice in the matter.



other news reports on the trials outcome.. and more on blackwater background:
[Click to View YouTube Video]


[Click to View YouTube Video]



The lies of the right wing government players
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Oct 23, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
lol sweet politard tears

best thing Dr. F ever did
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 24, 2014 - 06:28am PT
lucky for you libs that we're wrong on the 2nd amendment:

http://bearingarms.com/winning-war-women-nc-grandfather-takes-three-rapists/


true, having a dialogue with the rapists might have produced the same result, but i hope you never have to test your theory...and if you do, i hope your neighbor is as wrong as this grandpa
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 26, 2014 - 04:32pm PT
libs' favorite bureaucracy goes after another evuhl business owner (you know, the ones that don't create jobs):


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/us/law-lets-irs-seize-accounts-on-suspicion-no-crime-required.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSum&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1


but it's ok because she "didn't build that"
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 26, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
"having sex with other people"

Oh my Booky, what Liberalism Hath Wrought
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 28, 2014 - 09:04am PT
lap dogs FINALLY biting the hand that has repeatedly swatted it:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/10/27/usa-todays-susan-page-obama-administration-most-dangerous-to-media-in-history/?hpid=z2


oh, the irony...
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 28, 2014 - 09:46am PT
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 28, 2014 - 10:16am PT
Oct 28, 2014 - 09:32am PT
But... but... but...

President Obama is one of the good guys.

Remember "Hope and Change"?

Remember "We're the most transparent and ethical administration in US history"?

He promised.

 
 
I do remember....

Boy, we were some really patriotic, and proud Americans back then... We had such high hopes...

It's almost as though the right wing only wants to be the story tellers... They never want to sit back and listen... Maybe offer constructive suggestions...

What a time it was. To be free of all the nasty terrorist threats... Those are the good old days I long for.....



Moreover Edit:
http://blogs.rollcall.com/hill-navigator/congress-averaging-70-hour-work-week/?dcz=thoughtleader

Who runs congress now?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 28, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
this is too funny to leave out....

pure genius!!!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Hey repubs.... please explain Gohmert for us?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 29, 2014 - 03:36am PT
the most racist, hateful, bigoted political video you've ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUSRZo1BE5o

BOOM!


why do formerly incarcerated black men hate black politicians so much?

just another cog in the vast right-wing conspiracy?

just another bunch of uncle toms?



what's a lib to do when black men speak the truth about liberal policies while standing in the middle of the evidence of what those policies produce?


oh, right, ignore the argument and attack me...spew away
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2014 - 05:42am PT
So what, you sniveling little naysaying half-wit. His rating is still above Truman, who was a great president. The Affordable Care Act will be remembered as one of the greatest accomplishments by a modern President. Yes, heck of a job Mr. President.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:25am PT
Sketch crushes yet another poster...Oooh..
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:40am PT
The link Bookworm posted on the ex-cons is very sobering and is a small look into how single party rule breeds corruption in cities like Detroit or Chicago. This type of corruption is a human condition, not a partisan one. Each party has it's own excesses, and the opposition keeps em honest.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:04am PT
"This type of corruption is a human condition, not a partisan one."

well, you're half right...can you point to a single city/state with one party rule by republicans that has suffered the same decay? that has similar long-term failures in the economy, poverty, education, crime, etc.?


so, even with all the evidence of the failure of liberal policies, libs will continue to pursue these policies and continue to heap misery on the constituencies they claim to care about most...some would call that behavior insanity; i call it institutionalized racism
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:08am PT
here's another black man who understands the poison of lib policies:

http://www.suffernofoolsfilm.com/preview.php

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:28am PT
Yes bookworm, take a look at how well Kansas has done under
republican policies.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:35am PT

Bookworm wrote:
well, you're half right...can you point to a single city/state with one party rule by republicans that has suffered the same decay? that has similar long-term failures in the economy, poverty, education, crime, etc.?


The excesses are manifested in different ways. Some Southern conservative areas have needed federal intervention to racially equalize opportunities in schools and employment. This is unfortunate, because the idea of federalism, or states rights, is a cornerstone of our country's founding.


Too many partisans are unable to recapitulate an opposing position, exposing their own biases and prejudices.
Diversity of thought is the most important diversity that a free, strong and independent society can ever possess.
How this diversity is rejected by partisans is so ironic.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2014 - 08:36am PT
well, you're half right...can you point to a single city/state with one party rule by republicans that has suffered the same decay? that has similar long-term failures in the economy, poverty, education, crime, etc.?


The USA, circa 2006. The Great Recession began only a few months after they left office.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:52am PT
Larry Pressler(D) ex senator and congressman from South Dakota
is running as an Independent this time.
South Dakota is a red state. In one of his ads he's
asked, by a Repulican voter, if he was in favor of 'Obammacare'.
He said, "if Romney would have won we'd be calling it Romneycare
and everyone would be happy now."

Pressler is the senator that turned down the FBI's 'ABSCAM'
and the model for the movie "American Hustle".
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:00am PT
Dirtbag wrote:
The USA, circa 2006. The Great Recession began only a few months after they left office.

I would posit that the recession had many causes, the primary cause being a collapse of ethics in our culture. Everybody wanted something for nothing. Left, right, rich, poor. There are also natural cycles in business, and other aspects of society, that has little to do with partisan social policy.
The banks want to privatize profits and socialize losses. The poor wanted substandard loans they couldn't afford to reap the equity build up of the housing bubble. The left and right only point fingers at each other.
Our culture is one of narcissistic instant gratification without responsibilities. We are reaping what we sowed. We have the "leaders" we deserve.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2014 - 09:09am PT
Larry the republicans in 2006 created one huge stinking mess of corruption and hubris. Remember Tom Delay?

And frankly, the "Both sides do it" mantra is simply not true. I don't remember any party ever overtly obstructing basic government functioning as much as the current republican congress. Shutdowns, defaults etc.: they are nothing more than anti-government pukes, uninterested in governing. It will get a lot worse come January.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:33am PT
Gas prices down steeply.


U.S. stock market S & P 500 average has nearly doubled in the last 5 years.



All Obama's fault, with the Republicans trying to destroy our nation and make him look bad every step of the way.

Why does anyone want to vote Republican: the party of failure?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
Dirtbag, (Dang, I feel like I'm going ad hominem...hee hee)

Tom Delay is not a nice man. The Texas prosecutor who targeted him is not a nice man either. Politics is a sewer. Your heroes are swimming in the same crap as those you despise. Washington DC is a bubble of power hungry narcissists getting rich off of taxpayers.
Check out the business holdings of the husbands of Nancy Pelosi or Diane Feinstein. Look how much Goldman Sachs or General Electric contributed to Obama, then look at what they pay in taxes. The Democrats have been in power for 6 years. They are the ones on the hot seat now. If the same standards they applied to Bush now apply to them, they own this underemployed economy.(In actuality, the economy runs in cycles that too often are blamed on politicians, or too often politicians taking credit)
After 6 years, blaming Bush or racism rings hollow. Jon Stewart said 2 years ago that the race card was overdrawn.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
- and conservative is way better option...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
Democrat criminals!

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Sorry for being redundant.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
I would posit that the recession had many causes, the primary cause being a collapse of ethics in our culture. Everybody wanted something for nothing. Left, right, rich, poor

you actually would posit that the collapse of ethics was a real cause of the 2007 Recession?

Really?

Odd, because the real cause was the explosion of financial derivatives which caused the intense credit contraction, which put the economy into three quarters of negative GDP growth (the classic definition of Recession_

and would you like to know which party had the Presidency, the Senate, and the House for six years in a row leading up to and including the start of the worst economic collapse in the USA since the Great Depression = that would be the Republicans



I could go on and on, but then I don't want you to stop believing that it was moral decay instead........
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
The Democrats have been in power for 6 years.

Wrong, Larry. It is a divided government.

Republicans control the House.

They have veto power in the Senate, which they have used, or threatened to use, unsparingly.

Republicans in the legislature have been uncompromising, threatening such stunts as shutdowns and debt defaults to get their way. Between that and vetoes, they have stymied the Legislative Branch.

And, it is a conservative Supreme Court. Citizens United, anyone?

So that is two out of three branches of gvoernment.

Dems have the White House.

Again, quit playing the "They both do it" card. It is true in a few instances, but often not.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 29, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
Mitt Romney and Hillary Clinton were walking down the street when they came to a homeless person.
Then Romney gave the homeless person his business card and told him to come to his office for a job.
He then took $20 out of his pocket and gave it to the homeless person.
Hillary was very impressed, so when they came to another homeless person, she decided to help. She walked over to the homeless person and gave him directions to the welfare office. She then reached into Romney’s pocket and got out $20. She kept $15 for her administrative fees and gave the homeless person $5.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
And then Hillary tried to give Romney a courtesy reach-around and discovered that he didn't have a dick...
crankster

Trad climber
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:36am PT
Mitt thinks a homeless person is someone with a house a block away from the beach instead of one on it.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 02:54am PT
“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” With these words Dickens began his famous novel A Tale of Two Cities. But this cannot, alas, be said about our own terrible century. Men have for millennia destroyed each other, but the deeds of Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Napoleon (who introduced mass killings in war), even the Armenian massacres, pale into insignificance before the Russian Revolution and its aftermath: the oppression, torture, murder which can be laid at the doors of Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and the systematic falsification of information which prevented knowledge of these horrors for years—these are unparalleled. They were not natural disasters, but preventable human crimes, and whatever those who believe in historical determinism may think, they could have been averted.

I speak with particular feeling, for I am a very old man, and I have lived through almost the entire century. My life has been peaceful and secure, and I feel almost ashamed of this in view of what has happened to so many other human beings. I am not a historian, and so I cannot speak with authority on the causes of these horrors. Yet perhaps I can try.

They were, in my view, not caused by the ordinary negative human sentiments, as Spinoza called them—fear, greed, tribal hatreds, jealousy, love of power—though of course these have played their wicked part. They have been caused, in our time, by ideas; or rather, by one particular idea. It is paradoxical that Karl Marx, who played down the importance of ideas in comparison with impersonal social and economic forces, should, by his writings, have caused the transformation of the twentieth century, both in the direction of what he wanted and, by reaction, against it. The German poet Heine, in one of his famous writings, told us not to underestimate the quiet philosopher sitting in his study; if Kant had not undone theology, he declared, Robespierre might not have cut off the head of the King of France.




He predicted that the armed disciples of the German philosophers—Fichte, Schelling, and the other fathers of German nationalism—would one day destroy the great monuments of Western Europe in a wave of fanatical destruction before which the French Revolution would seem child’s play. This may have been unfair to the German metaphysicians, yet Heine’s central idea seems to me valid: in a debased form, the Nazi ideology did have roots in German anti-Enlightenment thought. There are men who will kill and maim with a tranquil conscience under the influence of the words and writings of some of those who are certain that they know perfection can be reached.

Let me explain. If you are truly convinced that there is some solution to all human problems, that one can conceive an ideal society which men can reach if only they do what is necessary to attain it, then you and your followers must believe that no price can be too high to pay in order to open the gates of such a paradise. Only the stupid and malevolent will resist once certain simple truths are put to them. Those who resist must be persuaded; if they cannot be persuaded, laws must be passed to restrain them; if that does not work, then coercion, if need be violence, will inevitably have to be used—if necessary, terror, slaughter. Lenin believed this after reading Das Kapital, and consistently taught that if a just, peaceful, happy, free, virtuous society could be created by the means he advocated, then the end justified any methods that needed to be used, literally any.

The root conviction which underlies this is that the central questions of human life, individual or social, have one true answer which can be discovered. It can and must be implemented, and those who have found it are the leaders whose word is law. The idea that to all genuine questions there can be only one true answer is a very old philosophical notion. The great Athenian philosophers, Jews and Christians, the thinkers of the Renaissance and the Paris of Louis XIV, the French radical reformers of the eighteenth century, the revolutionaries of the nineteenth—however much they differed about what the answer was or how to discover it (and bloody wars were fought over this)—were all convinced that they knew the answer, and that only human vice and stupidity could obstruct its realization.

This is the idea of which I spoke, and what I wish to tell you is that it is false. Not only because the solutions given by different schools of social thought differ, and none can be demonstrated by rational methods—but for an even deeper reason. The central values by which most men have lived, in a great many lands at a great many times—these values, almost if not entirely universal, are not always harmonious with each other. Some are, some are not. Men have always craved for liberty, security, equality, happiness, justice, knowledge, and so on. But complete liberty is not compatible with complete equality—if men were wholly free, the wolves would be free to eat the sheep. Perfect equality means that human liberties must be restrained so that the ablest and the most gifted are not permitted to advance beyond those who would inevitably lose if there were competition. Security, and indeed freedoms, cannot be preserved if freedom to subvert them is permitted. Indeed, not everyone seeks security or peace, otherwise some would not have sought glory in battle or in dangerous sports.

Justice has always been a human ideal, but it is not fully compatible with mercy. Creative imagination and spontaneity, splendid in themselves, cannot be fully reconciled with the need for planning, organization, careful and responsible calculation. Knowledge, the pursuit of truth—the noblest of aims—cannot be fully reconciled with the happiness or the freedom that men desire, for even if I know that I have some incurable disease this will not make me happier or freer. I must always choose: between peace and excitement, or knowledge and blissful ignorance. And so on.

So what is to be done to restrain the champions, sometimes very fanatical, of one or other of these values, each of whom tends to trample upon the rest, as the great tyrants of the twentieth century have trampled on the life, liberty, and human rights of millions because their eyes were fixed upon some ultimate golden future?

I am afraid I have no dramatic answer to offer: only that if these ultimate human values by which we live are to be pursued, then compromises, trade-offs, arrangements have to be made if the worst is not to happen. So much liberty for so much equality, so much individual self-expression for so much security, so much justice for so much compassion. My point is that some values clash: the ends pursued by human beings are all generated by our common nature, but their pursuit has to be to some degree controlled—liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I repeat, may not be fully compatible with each other, nor are liberty, equality, and fraternity.

So we must weigh and measure, bargain, compromise, and prevent the crushing of one form of life by its rivals. I know only too well that this is not a flag under which idealistic and enthusiastic young men and women may wish to march—it seems too tame, too reasonable, too bourgeois, it does not engage the generous emotions. But you must believe me, one cannot have everything one wants—not only in practice, but even in theory. The denial of this, the search for a single, overarching ideal because it is the one and only true one for humanity, invariably leads to coercion. And then to destruction, blood—eggs are broken, but the omelette is not in sight, there is only an infinite number of eggs, human lives, ready for the breaking. And in the end the passionate idealists forget the omelette, and just go on breaking eggs.

I am glad to note that toward the end of my long life some realization of this is beginning to dawn. Rationality, tolerance, rare enough in human history, are not despised. Liberal democracy, despite everything, despite the greatest modern scourge of fanatical, fundamentalist nationalism, is spreading. Great tyrannies are in ruins, or will be—even in China the day is not too distant. I am glad that you to whom I speak will see the twenty-first century, which I feel sure can be only a better time for mankind than my terrible century has been. I congratulate you on your good fortune; I regret that I shall not see this brighter future, which I am convinced is coming. With all the gloom that I have been spreading, I am glad to end on an optimistic note. There really are good reasons to think that it is justified.

© The Isaiah Berlin Literary Trust 2014
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 03:28am PT
"Half of the MIT students surveyed think it's possible to "accidently" rape someone. When you consider undergraduates alone, this rises to 67 percent."

http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/28/1-in-6-mit-students-sexually-assaulted


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 03:33am PT
a lib's definition of "one of the greatest accomplishments of any modern president":

http://cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/barbara-boland/over-214000-doctors-opt-out-obamacare-exchanges


because, uh, doctors are evuhl? ergo, any health care system that discourages participation by doctors is...uh..."great"?


read the berlin speech above to learn (be reminded) what happens when people believe government can run our lives better than we can
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 30, 2014 - 05:45am PT
The Republicans control Congress with 45 Senate seats?

Yes, they do. With the filibuster rules now in effect a party needs 60 seats to control the senate.

The same with California, the Republican minority could, and did, block any fiscally sound spending bills. It wasn't until the Democrats achieved a super-majority that California got back on a sound fiscal footing.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 30, 2014 - 05:56am PT
Gary wrote
Yes, they do. With the filibuster rules now in effect a party needs 60 seats to control the senate.

How did the Affordable Care Act pass without 60 votes?


Bookworm,
Interesting essay by Asaiah Berlin. I like philosophical discussions over the political finger pointing. The essay reminds me of the zero sum relationship between liberty and security.

I am also reminded of this quote by an unknown author:
"The problem with capitalism, is capitalists.
The problem with socialism, is socialism."
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 06:00am PT
don't fret, libs; i'm sure it wasn't "rape rape":

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2014/10/30/roman-polanski-questioned-in-poland-about-177-sex-with-minor-case/?intcmp=features


you can still give him awards and throw him parties
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2014 - 06:01am PT
Oh sketch,

Please refresh my memory:
Who controlled the house house then?
Who controlled the Supreme Court?
Who controlled the senate then?
Who was our president?

Compared to now:
How many times did the dems threaten to filibuster legislation or appointments they disliked?
How many bills were passed?
Hoe many times did the dems threaten to shutdown the government when they did not get their way? Or seriously threaten to default?

I think you aspire to be a dickhead, but you aren't bright enough to pull it off. Keep trying...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 06:05am PT
once again, it seems the "science" isn't settled:

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/10/christies_quarantine_policy_attacked_by_aclu_cdc_and_even_the_un_is_embraced_by_2011_nobel_prize_win.html#incart_river


hey, since when did the nobel committee start giving prizes to racist haters...and "denires"?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 06:09am PT
holy crap, the hits just keep coming...it's almost like there's an election coming soon:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/why-are-liberal-cities-so-unaffordable/382045/


when will libs admit the failure of their policies? how much empirical evidence does it take to convert a lib? oh, right, who needs evidence when you have barry...the man who promised to "heal the planet" and "make the waters recede"?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 06:12am PT
ok, this one's just for fun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A


exit question: what's the difference between a polite greeting/compliment and "harrassment"? the vid seems to blur the lines...perhaps libs would prefer we not communicate at all...but then, how would we be able to "give consent"?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 30, 2014 - 06:13am PT
How did the Affordable Care Act pass without 60 votes?
\


the Dems had 58 of their own plus the two Independent Senators joined them


oh come on, you knew that, or could have googled it, right?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 30, 2014 - 06:59am PT
Norton beat me to it. Thanks, Norton.

Did they change the rules, giving additional power to filibusters?

Yes, it used to be that you had to "filibuster", that is extend debate by speaking endlessly. In the '70s they changed the rule, so it was no longer required to speak on the floor, thus creating the "virtual" filibuster of today.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:17am PT
More bad news for all you that hate America.

From Bloomberg News: http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/us-economy-up-35percent-in-3rd-quarter-capping-best-6-months-in-over-a-decade/ar-BBc2vQU

The economy in the U.S. expanded more than forecast in the third quarter, capping its strongest six months in more than a decade, as gains in government spending and a shrinking trade deficit made up for a slowdown in household purchases.

Gross domestic product grew at a 3.5 percent annualized rate in the three months ended September after a 4.6 percent gain in the second quarter, Commerce Department figures showed today in Washington. It marked the strongest back-to-back readings since the last six months of 2003.

Growing oil production is limiting imports and contributing to a pickup in manufacturing, allowing the economy to overcome slowing growth in overseas markets from Europe to China. At the same time, job gains and cheaper gasoline are giving American consumers the confidence and the means to spend, brightening the outlook for the holiday-shopping season and helping explain why the Federal Reserve ended its bond-buying program yesterday.


Improving consumer sentiment may help lift the biggest part of the economy this quarter. Confidence this month jumped to a seven-year high, according to figures from the Conference Board.


It appears the only people that refuse to accept that things are going great in America are the "Nabobs of Negativity" on Fox News and their disciples that post on ST.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:45am PT
Perhaps that last part... about being dickhead, but not bright enough was more about your insecurities, than anything else.

perhaps not.
WBraun

climber
Oct 30, 2014 - 08:28am PT
A senior Obama administration official has described Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as a “chickensh#t,”
expressing the US president’s frustration with the Israeli leader.

I told you Obama can't stand that world stage genocide terrorist creating aszhole Netanyahu.

Most of the Republicans bow down and kiss the ring of that world wide terrorist prick Netanyahu .....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 30, 2014 - 08:49am PT
Both Dems and Repubs have histories involving criminal behavior...

 yah, but... the south!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 30, 2014 - 09:07am PT
winston smith is dead


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/391404/our-make-it-world-victor-davis-hanson


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 30, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Frank Smith - I agree

Some Dems have been involved in criminal behavior, yes


The Entire Republican Party IS an Organized Criminal Racket all about siphoning money off you and me to line their pockets and turn America into wage slaves

Have you ever read what they want to do?
You should check it out
Eliminate the ACA
Eliminate SS
Eliminate Medicare
Eliminate Public schools, the EPA, The CDC,

They want everything you don't want, they just never tell you that, all they will tell you is how bad the Dems are,
It's all part of using the media as propaganda.

 I'm likening this discussion to how Harris sees Islam... Republicans are the Motherload Of Bad Ideas!

Hahhahahha

Repubs want to get rid of the CDC... possibly the only people smart enough to help with infected people... But that never touches the upper 1%... so we can get rid of that stuff after all...

Greatest Country In The World!

I know I'm not supposed to be bigoted... but much like my acceptance of Islam even with its bombing few... I also feel I can't call all repubs infected just because I feel that most are against humans,for corporations and money more than anything else.



I wonder if republicans are in charge over at the red cross, now that I see stories of it has been administered...


(removed irrelevant video clip)
(replaced relevant video clip)
[Click to View YouTube Video]

This reminds me of republican efforts to help the people...

"Since we can't help people in this country, how can we make people 'think' that we help people", without ever actually helping people...

To me, that is the republican party
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 30, 2014 - 11:25am PT

I told you Obama can't stand that world stage genocide terrorist creating aszhole Netanyahu.

Most of the Republicans bow down and kiss the ring of that world wide terrorist prick Netanyahu .....

 Watch out werner.... you're going to loose some friends with that sentiment.. Take it from the friendless one!

LOL
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 30, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
Millions have lost their house, their job, their health and Thousands have died all because of Republican Policies

In an alternate universe, perhaps. Republicans tried to correct the policies leading to the housing bubble that inevitably burst, but Democrats, with, ironically, Mssrs. Dodd and Frank leading the charge, prevented the needed action. Now their eponymous, nefarious, Act adds cost and no benefit to the banking system.

Yes, we could have had millions of good paying jobs. The funny thing is, we still have millions of good paying jobs. The question is how many more millions of good paying jobs we would have had if the Democrats' policies had not given us the weakest recovery of any post-war recession.

Meanwhile, the Democrats pretend that their actions didn't happen, and that the world is flat. Examples: (1) Hillary Clinton saying businesses don't create jobs, or that policies that enable businesses to employ more people constitute "trickle-down economics;" (2) Democrats running for Senate who won't mention Obama by name or say whether they voted for him; (3) Democrats alleging that they want to fix the ACA, but who allow Harry Reid to prevent any votes on any legislation that would do so; etc., etc.

But I digress, since facts have no place in the Democrats' discussion of their perceived reality. And besides, with a little "recalibration," they can change Republican votes to votes for Democrats.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
Welcome back, F!

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
"In an alternate universe, perhaps. Republicans tried to correct the policies leading to the housing bubble that inevitably burst, but Democrats, with, ironically, Mssrs. Dodd and Frank leading the charge, prevented the needed action."


The appropriate response is contained in the very same paragraph.

In an alternate universe, perhaps.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2014 - 12:37pm PT

Oct 30, 2014 - 06:16am PT
dirtbag

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2014 - 06:01am PT
Oh sketch,

Please refresh my memory:
Who controlled the house house then?
Who controlled the Supreme Court?
Who controlled the senate then?
Who was our president?

Compared to now:
How many times did the dems threaten to filibuster legislation or appointments they disliked?
How many bills were passed?
Hoe many times did the dems threaten to shutdown the government when they did not get their way? Or seriously threaten to default?

I think you aspire to be a dickhead, but you aren't bright enough to pull it off. Keep trying...

"House house then"? Derp.

All those questions... what time period are you talking about?

"Now"?

Again, what are you talking about?

Nice finish... calling me dickhead and an idiot.

You can't seem to compose a coherent post, but you're quick with the lame name-calling.

Perhaps that last part... about being dickhead, but not bright enough was more about your insecurities, than anything else.


LOL, poor little butthurt sketch. Picks apart an iPhone related typo instead of refuting the points. But, that's what little people do.

Keep trying, and maybe someday you'll fulfill your aspiration.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
Stock market up again today to near record territory.

Most all U.S. economic news is good.

From Bloomberg News: http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/us-economy-up-35percent-in-3rd-quarter-capping-best-6-months-in-over-a-decade/ar-BBc2vQU


The economy in the U.S. expanded more than forecast in the third quarter, capping its strongest six months in more than a decade, as gains in government spending and a shrinking trade deficit made up for a slowdown in household purchases.

Gross domestic product grew at a 3.5 percent annualized rate in the three months ended September after a 4.6 percent gain in the second quarter, Commerce Department figures showed today in Washington. It marked the strongest back-to-back readings since the last six months of 2003.

Growing oil production is limiting imports and contributing to a pickup in manufacturing, allowing the economy to overcome slowing growth in overseas markets from Europe to China. At the same time, job gains and cheaper gasoline are giving American consumers the confidence and the means to spend, brightening the outlook for the holiday-shopping season and helping explain why the Federal Reserve ended its bond-buying program yesterday.

Improving consumer sentiment may help lift the biggest part of the economy this quarter. Confidence this month jumped to a seven-year high, according to figures from the Conference Board.

What economy are you folks whinning about? The one you see on Fox News or the real one?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
Yep, everything is pretty good right now except employee wages...they haven't moved much at all.

Evidence that in spite of the obvious Obama economic policy successes, and record profits everywhere in the corporate sectors, they haven't allowed this to 'trickle down' to the those who are actually doing the work.

Still, this kind of corporate selfishness is Obama's fault.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
They're morons Fritz....or would dunce, blockhead, ninny, bonehead or twit better fit the bill?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
Sketch, as part of the self-appointed ST grammar nazis, I can tell you that going after anyone here for spelling, syntax, grammar, etc. glitches is a fool's errand. Just stick to simple name calling. It's much more effective.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Obama should have given everyone a raise. It's that simple.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
(1) Hillary Clinton saying businesses don't create jobs, or that policies that enable businesses to employ more people constitute "trickle-down economics;"

 Wasn't this desperate back when it was first rolled out?

Do you have any evidence that this myth (IMO) has worked? Or is this just how the system works as you see it?

Or was it the case that since reagen we've seen only the benefits of this myth when the republicans were in office...?

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Elizabeth Warren: Not running, still vexing Hillary Clinton

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/10/elizabeth-warren-not-running-still-vexing-hillary-clinton-112330.html?cmpid=sf

"The side-by-side appearance was a reminder that Clinton is still learning the language of the new economic populism, which formed in the shadow of the 2008 financial crisis during a period when she was focused on foreign affairs. Her remarks — including a misdelivered line about businesses not creating jobs — added another scrap to the narrative pile that she is a reactive campaigner, who will bend if it’s politically expedient."
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
Care to refute my points, Butthurt?



Or are you going to continue to be the grammar nazi, which is what wannabe dickheads do when they lack the mental capacity to be real dickheads?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
Hey! I resemble that remark!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 30, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
Democrat family values.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/how-did-alan-graysons-wife-get-approved-public-ass/nhtMk/
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 30, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
Dang, I take off for 10 hours to work and this thread turns into a food fight. Can't I leave you kids alone?

Norton wrote:
the Dems had 58 of their own plus the two Independent Senators joined them
oh come on, you knew that, or could have googled it, right?

Yeah, my bad, just got lazy and mis-remembered.
I remembered Scott Brown winning the Kennedy seat after campaigning on opposing the ACA. It was as close as it could be, but is now the law.

Frank Smith wrote:
Have you ever read what they want to do?
You should check it out
Eliminate the ACA
Eliminate SS
Eliminate Medicare
Eliminate Public schools, the EPA, The CDC,

Frank, that is one long list of strawmen. The ACA was controversial, but the other programs were all bi-partisan programs supported by most of the country. No one I know or have heard of, other than fringe wackos, want to eliminate any but the ACA.
A famous pundit once said "He is an arsonist in a field of strawmen".

Anyhow, it doesn't appear that some minds are open to legitimate opposing views when their social policy beliefs take on a religious fervor that Jimmie Swaggart would blush at.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 30, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Criminals!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 30, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
Frank, that is one long list of strawmen. The ACA was controversial, but the other programs were all bi-partisan programs supported by most of the country. No one I know or have heard of, other than fringe wackos, want to eliminate any but the ACA.
A famous pundit once said "He is an arsonist in a field of strawmen".

actually, the ACA was opposed but every single voting Republican in the US Congress,
the word controversial is quite benign as a description, they screamed their asses off that the new healthcare bill had Death Panels, would actually kill people, would be the Death of America, on and on

now Medicare and Social Security?

those programs now beloved by almost all Americans were created by Democrats, voted into law by Democratic majorities and signed into law by Democratic Presidents.

And make not mistake about this fact, that although yes a much smaller number of Republicans did vote for those programs, more of them voted against them, and the same language was used by Republicans in the era of their creation in addition to screaming how "Socialism" , shades of Hitler, the bankrupting of American, the Death of America the Repubs screamed back in the 30s and the 60s when SS and Medicare came into being by Democratic initiatives, my point is that using the word "bi partisan" to describe their support back then is, well, a very inaccurate description
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Oct 30, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
Yeah. Now our heath care is nearly as good as Bolivia's

Give us another century and it might be as good as Cuba's.

And in another millennium it might approach the First World Nations.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/lindsey-graham-promises-results-white-men

South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham, who is toying with the idea of a presidential bid, joked in a private gathering this month that “white men who are in male-only clubs are going to do great in my presidency,” according to an audio recording of his comments provided to CNN. […]

OMFG! I guess that I should not be surprised, but I am. How could anyone ever consider voting for this kind of as#@&%e. Even if you agree with him, which I don't, the incompetence displayed by getting caught saying this stuff is pretty stunning. Then again, Ron probably has a picture of this d#@&%e on the ceiling above his bed.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
^^^^
Bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!

+1

No, +10000000000
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
What Makes People Vote Republican?
Jonathan Haidt

http://edge.org/conversation/what-makes-vote-republican

This guy is a secular liberal with an open mind toward other viewpoints. There is something for every persuasion in this essay. The discussion that follows is worth reading also. Why heck, folks might learn to debate in a civil manner. What a concept.

I admit that I once called someone a name here. But he even calls himself Dirtbag.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
TGT! This cartoon is for you!


In a long-ago college class, an instructor lectured us about working our intellects towards having “original thoughts.”

He explained that children adopt the thoughts of their parents. Then later, if they found reason to doubt the thoughts and beliefs of their parents, they might fall into a group of influential friends, and adopt their thoughts.

Occasionally, developing students might learn to question the thoughts and beliefs that have been adopted from their parents, friends, or culture, and start thinking for them-selves.

They would then think “original thoughts.”

It appears conservatives don’t have “original thoughts.”
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
HE RAMMED OBAMACARE DOWN OUR THROATS

 and we're a whole lot better off for it today....

and only 9.5 million previously uninsured got to benefit from it...

man...
WBraun

climber
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
... an instructor lectured us about working our intellects towards having “original thoughts.”

You are dreaming.

Not one mortal person ever has any original thought.

All thoughts are already there in pure consciousness.

We just pull them out from there according to our level of developed consciousness.

You politards are at the lowest levels of consciousness for a human worst than animals .....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 30, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
it is also about binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, and living in a sanctified and noble way. When Republicans say that Democrats "just don't get it," this is the "it" to which they refer.

This is exactly what Republican politicians don't get. Binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, living a sanctified and noble way? That's socialism.

Republican politicians only believe in the enrichment of their benefactors, no matter how much harm it does to American society. Democrats are turning that way also, as money increasingly prevails in our political system.

Republican propaganda does exploit this "moral clarity" quite effectively, pushing the right buttons that get working people to vote in the interests of the 1%, or whatever it is we call capitalists nowadays.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 30, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
white men who are in male-only clubs are going to do great in my presidency

 hey repubs.... is this your part of the gay agenda y'all seem to want to talk about all the time?

So, San Francisco is off the hook after all?

You flop flopping extroverts need something to focus on..



Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
Dr. W. Braum! Re your comeback!

Oct 30, 2014 - 07:42pm PT

... an instructor lectured us about working our intellects towards having “original thoughts.”

You are dreaming.

Not one mortal person ever has any original thought.

All thoughts are already there in pure consciousness.

We just pull them out from there according to our level of developed consciousness.

You politards are at the lowest levels of consciousness for a human worst than animals .....

It appears you are still waiting for an "original thought.
thebravecowboy

climber
walking, resin-stained, towards the goal
Oct 30, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
so I met this duck with his head up his ass....
crankster

Trad climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 01:52am PT

Not one mortal person ever has any original thought.

All thoughts are already there in pure consciousness.

We just pull them out from there according to our level of developed consciousness.

You politards are at the lowest levels of consciousness for a human worst than animals .....

This, from the biggest frickin idiot on the Internet.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 31, 2014 - 05:28am PT
barry's "don't do stupid shi*" foreign policy strategy continues to produce shi**y results:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/186828#!


hopenchange
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 31, 2014 - 08:19am PT
liberalism has become a mockery of itself:

"The UC Berkeley administration does not care about its 'colored' students as a result of their investments,"

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-California/2014/10/31/UC-Berkeley-Muslim-Students-Association-Prepares-to-Wage-PR-War-Against-Conservative-Administration


oh, the irony...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 31, 2014 - 08:34am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 All brought to you by non-human multi-billion dollar corporation loving republicans that will soon own your city council...


(Disclaimer - This message not meant to be taken seriously by anyone in America currently occupying the upper 1)

If you are not in immediate danger, you can do nothing because it is not effecting you immediately, therefore you cannot defend yourself, so sit down and know your place.

@ 9:27 of this clip starts an interesting story about one very interested white male...
THen again @ 10:15 of the clip... special americans getting their ways...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

 This is normal and nothing is wrong with this very specific profession of allegiance to a very specific group of americans...

Aren't you glad you are one of those specific kinds of americans?

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Oct 31, 2014 - 09:02am PT
another hopenchange failure:


http://www.gallup.com/poll/179045/less-half-americans-support-stricter-gun-laws.aspx



http://www.politico.com/story/2014/10/hillary-clinton-maryland-dreamers-heckle-112363.html


dang, another two years with barry and we'll be able to re-elect W
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 09:37am PT
Halloween, speaking truth to power:









crankster

Trad climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 09:55am PT
^^^
Like Larry, I like my president's to be stupid and fit men, preferably chopping wood. How could anybody govern if they ignore the imagery?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 31, 2014 - 09:56am PT
The Chief - If you knew me you'd know this is not the case...

You don't know the effect this activity would have on my nervous system...

Not to mention, nothing can turn me into a real human now... ask WB... its too late for me.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 31, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
chief, please stop.

you have no idea what a neurological disorder does to the world of the sufferer of said disorder.

Shooting at sh#t no longer appeals to me... blowing sh#t up no longer appeals to me.....I grew out of that around 13...
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 31, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Wow. That operator has some amazing skills. Amazing!
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
You might be a republican if:

You think "proletariat" is a type of cheese.

You think Huey Newton is a cookie.

You once broke loose at a party and removed your neck tie.

You've ever called a secretary or waitress "Tootsie."

You don't think "The Simpsons" is all that funny, but you watch it because that Flanders fellow makes a lot of sense.

You scream "Dit-dit-ditto" while making love.

You argue that you need 300 handguns, in case a bear ever attacks your home.

You point to Hootie and the Blowfish as evidence of the end of racism in America.




''It looks like the Republicans are going back to the strategy of 2008 where Obama is characterized as a celebrity. Says the party who is gay for Ronald Reagan. Come on, you can't worship Ronald Reagan and then attack Obama for being a celebrity. That's like running Chris Christie and saying Obama has a fat ass.'' —Bill Maher
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
Pickup lines for democrats:

Lets go back to my place so we can hike up your taxes and bash some Bush

Can I get someone else to buy you a drink?

Is the money in your pocket inflated or are you just happy to see me?

I wanna ride you like a Prius

Let me buy you a glass of Blame Bush, its my favorite red whine

You know what they say about guys with big carbon footprints....they have big private jets

"You had me at Mao!"

I get nude for animals. How about you?

Whats a Nice Girl like you doing in an Abortion Clinic like this?

If I told you you had a nice Pelosi, would you hold it against me?

My parents aren't home right now."
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 31, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
ok... is that supposed to be Palin or Pelosi? To me it looks like it could be a caricature of either.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Oct 31, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Larry, it's good to read posts demonstrating the ability to see the foibles of both sides. Thanks much.

John
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
Thanks John,
To paraphrase a famous quote: I am a humble man, with much to be humble about.
I guess this montage sums up my philosophy:

Here is an interesting link:
"Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones."
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-01/euhs-esl012406.php
crankster

Trad climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
Foibles of both sides...with no solutions offered, nor a path to get there. Nuts, the Libertarians.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 31, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
ah yes, the "libertarians"

at first glance it sounds like such a nice group, even puppies are in favor of "liberty'

the problem is that once someone actually takes the time to read up on what Libertarians really "stand for" most people would want to puke

just ask some well known "Libertarians" and find out that they want only enough government to defend the US against an attack on our soil only and they would "do away" with programs that lift tens of millions of Americans out of poverty, along with the Department of Education, the EPA, on and on and on

but hey, it sounds cool to be a "Libertarian" doesn't it? and that is what really matters
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
Hey Crankster,
The British Prime Minister Lord Salisbury once remarked to Her Majesty Queen Victoria:
"Change, change, why do we need more change? Aren't things bad enough already?"

But I do have solutions...and they're nearly as old as the hills:

“The budget must be balanced, the Treasury must be refilled, public debt must be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom must be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands must be curtailed, lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 B.C.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
Norton wrote:
and they would "do away" with programs that lift tens of millions of Americans out of poverty, along with the Department of Education, the EPA, on and on and on

Hey Norton,
How's that war on poverty going anyhow? 40 years? Or is it 50 years?
Kinda like that war on drugs?
How are those school test scores going? Getting worse? Yikes?
Sounds like job security for bureaucrats.
And just remember, it was those evil republicans that started the EPA.
Ironies abound on both sides. That's the main point I'm making.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 31, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
but hey, it sounds cool to be a "Libertarian" doesn't it? and that is what really matters

I don't think it is all that "cool" at all any more. I honestly think less of the libs than I do of the repubs, and that is saying a lot. At least the repubs are offering something of substance, vile though it is. The libs are all just smoke, mirrors and bs that is TOTALLY unrealistic and damaging.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 31, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Locker:
LMAO...I always appreciate your humorous and irreverent take on it all.

Norton:
I know you are passionate in your views, and you articulate them very well.
I am not in favor of abolishing welfare, public education, medicare, SS, or EPA... but more accountability for results would be nice.
I call myself a libertarian because I am a social liberal and fiscal conservative, and have voted for candidates in both major parties. Call me what you like. Character is a trait I look for. It's hard to find in the Washington DC bubble of self-serving narcisists.

Some like to mistakenly call libertarians anarchists. Well, I once was an anarchist. Disdain for my parents (I actually spit on them a few times) and did not recognize any governmental authority over any of my actions... then I turned three.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Oct 31, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
Larry, thanks for your comment

nowadays the term "fiscally conservative" has a different meaning that it had in the past

fact is, IF one is truly disturbed about "irresponsible spending" such as the monumental waste of taxpayer dollars in our over bloated military then one should change their self definition to "fiscally liberal", because it is the Repub who are both responsible for the most contribution of growth to the National Debt but are also the party most rigidly against trimming any spending from the military, while the Democrats are made numerous attempts through the years to try to reach agreement with the Repubs without success on ways to reduce military spending.....

as far as any perceived excess spending on other Federal programs such as SS, Medicare,
and anti poverty programs, both parties are pretty much equally taking the credit for their success while ignoring the real fiscal "fixes" to curb spending such as raising the employer and employee contributions to SS and Medicare

it used to be that people screamed that adding to the National Debt was just a terrible thing to do.....because they would say...it would make interest rates go up

but that "theory' stated as fact for decades was blown out of the water right now when we have a 17 trillion dollar debt and the lowest interest rates in 70 years

Chicken Little has been proven wrong about "spending"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 31, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
http://nypost.com/2014/10/30/democrats-threaten-voters-to-get-to-the-polls/

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 31, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
^^ funny... I thought of how the repubs like to pass laws that keep people from voting when I read the lines above...

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 31, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
So here we have the Maine nurse, who successfully exercised her rights under the Constitution not to be imprisoned, after all the medical people testified that she was not even a remote risk.

The Repubs come out in support of the Gov't ability to lock her up, with no evidence to support the action.

Showing their true colors.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 1, 2014 - 01:26am PT
Larry, I have no complaints with Cicero.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 1, 2014 - 08:14am PT
... but more accountability for results would be nice.

Should we apply that to tax cuts as well?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 1, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca

Oct 31, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
So here we have the Maine nurse, who successfully exercised her rights under the Constitution not to be imprisoned, after all the medical people testified that she was not even a remote risk.

The Repubs come out in support of the Gov't ability to lock her up, with no evidence to support the action.

Showing their true colors.

 +1
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 1, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
"This selfish entitled b___ has lots and lots of consequences coming your way, trust me. Not just from "locals" who hate her guts, but she's been acting unethically--people are campaigning to have her license revoked. She won't be able to show her fat ugly face anywhere in Maine, without hearing a few things about herself. She should pack up for Uganda."

Never go full psycho.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 1, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
Right wing zealotry has nothing to do with it.

Being a nutter does.


Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 1, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
Nutters choose a variety of extreme ways of thinking to self reinforce and vent the self-inflicted life frustrations that invariably plague such a disposition. The Angry White Man is just one of many flavors.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 1, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
Pure offense, actually.

These are not difficult concepts to keep straight.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 1, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
Isn't this guy the senate repub leader?

http://kos.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=lfdkDpig08A4ZzSyasFmliUz3fjROsYJ

"40kg Of Cocaine Found On Mitch McConnell’s Father-In-Law’s Boat"

I guess when you are connected with the leader of the senate republican party...

... you feel invincible!!!
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 1, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
Isn't this guy the senate repub leader?

yes, in fact he is

therefore, McConnell himself is guilty of moral failure, following the same logic of guilt by association the Repubs tried to use, unsuccessfully, against the President many times

because when you can't be proud of where you stand on the important issues, then you are reduced to irrational smear tactics, that's about all they got left

note: I fully expect Sketch to see this and post something really stupid
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 1, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
Norton, you've hit a point, for me...

"McConnell himself is guilty of moral failure, following the same logic of guilt by association the Repubs tried to use, unsuccessfully, against the President many times"

 Taken as a full statement I agree... If we were republican, this would put McConnell in the ground with congressional hearings and other bog-downs of the system they intend to destroy.

I wasn't, of course, saying that this is what needs to happen in the case of McConnell... He is not connected to this drug thing at all other than by way of marriage, and since we are only taking about the ultra wealthy here, I would have no idea how much the topic of large amounts of cocaine gets discussed during the holidays... so it entirely plausible that Mitch knew nothing about the usage, addiction to the collection of nor the storage of the 40Kg of cocaine found on the step-family member.

But someone had to ask 'How that guy make his money?" at some point... right?

I fully expect Sketch to see this and post something really stupid


 Time will tell
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 1, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
Jingy wrote:
"40kg Of Cocaine Found On Mitch McConnell’s Father-In-Law’s Boat"

Heck, isn't that what we expect anymore? But it is worthy of a schaudenboner. Comes around, goes around

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Hunter+Biden%2C+cocaine

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/mezvinsky.asp

Of course republicans (foot signals in the pubic bathroom by a homophobe is a classic) and democrats both have long history's of shady and hypocritical behavior. Very hard to find men of character in the sewer of politics. Decent people tend to stay away.

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 2, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
So why not give it a try. The starting gun for the presidential race is about to go off, and a no-holds-barred conservative at the head of the GOP will certainly settle the matter. All there is to lose is another eight years.

yes!

now we are getting somewhere

the only reason John McCain and Richy Rich lost to that black muslim guy is because they were not extremely conservative enough

Cruz or Randy Paul could easily beat Hillary, America is longing for a rigid extremist
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 2, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
LOL.

Always wondered why you all like NZ.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 2, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
Sketch..so you found something that fits your simplistic outlook on politics..?
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Nov 2, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
this thread should get back up to its previous gargantuan size in short order once the GOP controls congress here shortly
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 3, 2014 - 08:27am PT
how can a health care law that causes thousands of people to LOSE health care policies they liked only to pay MORE for a policy they don't like be called "the greatest accomplishment of any modern president"?

the only "accomplishment" i can see is the fact that barry LIED so blatantly and with impunity...in a society saturated with media, that is quite an accomplishment


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/30000-lose-health-care-due-obamacare-indiana_817841.html
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 3, 2014 - 09:46am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

This makes me laugh at republicans, for some reason...
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 3, 2014 - 10:27am PT
Tioga, we get it. You're an ultra conservative. Take a break from chaneling the Fox wingnuttery and go climbing.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 4, 2014 - 06:55am PT
Think things are bad now? You ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until the climate denying, government hating Republicans take control of the senate today.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 4, 2014 - 06:56am PT
GET OUT AND VOTE, PEOPLE!!!!
WBraun

climber
Nov 4, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
Americans have spoken !!!!!

That politards are criminals.

Over 61% of America stayed away from the polls.

The majority that voted had very little faith in their politards representatives.

America has finally understood that politards are always wrong and can never be trusted ........
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 4, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Werner, if you think nonparticipation does anything other than ensure deeper corruption you are crazy. Politicians do not suffer when people don't vote. Only we do.
WBraun

climber
Nov 4, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
I didn't "think" ...

You projected I thought something.

I didn't say to do nonparticipation or participation.

I just made observations.

You people make up sh!t and project them onto the world outside of yourselves.

Politards can never be trusted ......
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 4, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
I don't mind low turnout. I know there are some voters who don't get to the polls for various reasons, but the great majority of those who don't vote couldn't care less and are poorly informed at best. Walk down the street and randomly ask people questions about civics: Why does Iowa have more Senators than California? How often do we elect Supreme Court Justices? Do you think the Presidents term should be more than 10 years? You'll be amazed how uninformed most people are. Do you really want folks who have no clue voting? I say let 'em stay home.

Of course the ideal would be to have an informed public and high turnout. Good luck with that.

End of cynical post.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 4, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
Voted.

Now I feel like everything is going to go my way....

But, in the back of my mind I remind myself that this is America...

A place where anyone can dream....


For the right price.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 4, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
But the misdirected extremism of Obama had hurt democrats a lot.

you could not be more wrong

the only controversial legislation PRESIDENT Obama signed was the ACA and that was back in
2010, and then he beat Romney by over 5 million votes and an electoral landslide AFTER the ACA was made law.

Your contention does not hold water, better you reason with history on your side, all minority parties do very well in Mid Term elections because the other side, in this case the Dems, don't give a damn and don't show up to vote. Witness 1994 and 2006 for strong examples of this.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 4, 2014 - 07:14pm PT

Demo-publican junta wins, in any case. Monsanto, Dow Chemical, military-industrial complex wins, etc, no matter which clown is up in the seat.

tioga, I'll give you that. Which is why the rest of your post makes no sense. Obama an extremist?
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 4, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
^^^
Analysis by a rightwing extremist.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 4, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
^^^ ^^^ ^^^

ok.... I know you're just being general and everything.... or principled or something... but...

Tell, you what.. You find me one of these "some fat nanny bureaucrat slob siphoning money from your pocket or telling you how to live"

 I won't think you're extremist.

Wait... Is that a "nanny government" - Mississippi style? or more like New York bum style "nanny government"?
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Nov 5, 2014 - 05:17am PT
Requiring a person to pay a FEE for BEING ALIVE, which is inalienable right and not a "privilege" granted by society or government, is extremism.

No different to the various capitation taxes that have existed for centuries, except Obamacare is optional. Many original states required adult males to either keep a firearm for militia use, or else pay an equivalent tax to support the militia. Of course, that was considered extremism at the time.

TE
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 05:38am PT

Nov 5, 2014 - 03:23am PT
Looks like America has spoken, and wants this ship turned around...or rather...this sinking ship re-floated.

Let's see, Cragman, the last Republican prez left an economy in collapse, a historic total freefall. Now that's what I call a sinking ship.

The ship had been already saved from sinking by the current president. And I have the feeling the Republicans, who now can't just scream and hide their rightwing, tea party uncle in the closet, will do as they always do...nothing, or worse.

This was a sea change, sure. But don't forget, more Democrat seats were on the ballot this time - not so in 2016, when it reverses.

Which brings me to Hillary, who had a good night. 2 years of the dysfunctional, no-ideas crowd running the show should make voters want another sea change in '16.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:27am PT
Now we get to see exactly how the republican govern...

or, based on the past couple of years...

now we get to see how republicans do their jobs....

so, yes... the ship is on its way down, unless the stupid people are purged from the country
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:37am PT
The Chief and Cragman are ecstatic mainly because 2 openly gay Republican won seats...The ship is turned around...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:48am PT
The sun is up and its shinning very brightly right now.

A new day to be sure

But nothing has really changed now has it.

every one of the newly elected serves a master

and that master is not you and it is not me.

just some new names

the problems are still the same.

But one thing is for sure, Barry is not going to lock the door this friday, and proclaim.... "we don't need you"

carry on bros.....
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:50am PT
^^^
Love the "Barry", makes you sound so smart.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:09am PT
So, you guys are just now figuring out that Republican's didn't run on anything positive, just anti-Obama. Congratulations.

Now that the GOP has all the legislative power, we can count on them to totally overplay their hand and piss off the whole country just in time for the next election. And go into full-blown civil war with each other. Mitch McConnell might have plans to be Majority Leader, but the lunatic Cruz has other ideas.

So, we'll get more investigations and little more. At least we can look forward to watching the Republican Party eat itself alive. And don’t forget, the GOP Presidential Primary Clown Show starts tomorrow.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:14am PT
Love the "Barry", makes you sound so smart.


Thank you Crank
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:16am PT
Hopefully democrats learned you can be the minority and still control the game.


Chief, did your state go red. LOL
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:22am PT
Veto, veto veto. Get use to it.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:32am PT
Chief, Taos is blue. LOL

Veto, veto and more veto.

Obama's chance to get back at the ass-backwards republicans.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:33am PT
GOP strategy: Dark Money and Voter Suppression. The Supreme's #1 hits.


No doubt, they are well organized. Here's an interesting Washington Post article:

Battle for the Senate: How the GOP did it
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:38am PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:41am PT
What this election and this 'discussion' underscores is how disfunctional a two-party political system is.
In a parliamentary system meaningful work can take place even when the ruling party does not
have an outright majority. Does anyone foresee our situation improving in their lifetime? Not
bloody likely, eh?
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:45am PT
Obama's chance to get back at the ass-backwards republicans.

Thank you Bob!

Now I'm off to MTB ride.


Susan
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:49am PT
I predict lots of show boat hearings and subpoenas, blocked nominations, etc. Congress is hopeless.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:50am PT
But, Malemute, you may not like it but at least something is being done
even if it is the wrong thing! ;-/
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:55am PT
Is it morning in America?

Nah. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:59am PT
Reilly wrote:
But, Malemute, you may not like it but at least something is being done
even if it is the wrong thing! ;-/

Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.
How much of your personal life is just on hold and waiting for the masters in Washington DC to "do something"?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:06am PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:08am PT
Well, Larry, that comment sort of sums up how a lot of people lead their lives - Waiting For Gubmint Goodbar.
Having just returned from Italy I can assure you that Southern Italy, which follows that system, sucks big time.
Northern Italy, where people go out and make lives for themselves, is doing quite nicely, thank you,
although no thanks to their layabout southern cousins who the northeners support.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:11am PT
How will Republicans govern, and what will be the result?

The soon-to-be-former Governor of Pennsylvania followed through on the right-wing dogma. He cut corporate taxes, cut school spending (socialism), rolled out the red carpet to oil/gas companies, and refused to meet environmental groups. He refused calls for harsher penalties for straw purchasers of guns, until a cop was murdered yet the straw purchaser could only be sentenced to a few months in prison for a first offense.

The result? Last night he became the first incumbent Governor ever to lose re-election in Pennsylvania.

Roll on 2016.

TE
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:19am PT
Democrats now need a remedy
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:20am PT
Southern Idaho is looking that much better every day though.

Why is this is? What about the North? What is it about ex military and retired civil servants moving to Idaho? I hear about a lot about that kind of activity occurring.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:34am PT
You forgot Hedge in your list Werner. I wonder about his welfare in light of the suicide of his "permanent demographic majority".
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:44am PT
Coo. I have a couple family friends that retired from the KernCountyFireDept and high tailed it to N.ID as soon as they left the red wagons. I have friends in MT from ID that have echoed the Cali retired Gov't contingent that moves to ID(in the 80's and 90's it was mostly N.ID -at least from my casual observations). It just seems odd to me that such an anti-gov't state would be so appealing. Although, there is enough land to essentially be alone up here anyway. It is what I dig about it. Easy to forget about the f'd politics of this country and just breathe and ogle at the landscape while enjoying the ride...
Artrock23

Mountain climber
Laguna Beach, CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:44am PT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 5, 2014 - 09:02am PT
I'm quite happy with the results.

DC, AK, OR ended Prohibition 2.0

AK, AR, IL, NE increased their minimum wage

CA reduced most non-violent felonies to misdemeanors - blowing a huge hole in Prohibition 2.0

CO and ND rejected personhood at conception

IL bolstered voting rights and requires birth control to be covered

MI bolstered protection of personal electronic data

OR passed an ERA according to sex

OR also voted for 'top 2' primary voting - moving one step closer towards WA's voting system - the best in the country. Like WA, OR already votes by mail - a system which blocks most of the voter suppression shenanigans we've been seeing elsewhere in the past 15 years.

WA voted overwhelmingly for background checks for private gun sales

Education didn't fare well across the nation, but other than that - things went pretty well in the States.

Congress? Who cares? They'll sit on their asses doing nothing, just like they've been doing for the past 2 years.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 09:18am PT
Lots of important races are now finished.
Last Sunday was the New York City Marathon.
The men's division was won by a Kenyan.
Meanwhile, in Kenya, a pie-eating competition was won by an American.
(Hat tip to Letterman)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 10:17am PT
Nothing will change, Obama will veto and then 2016 will come quickly.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 10:23am PT
Not too quickly, Bob. The show has just begun.
WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 10:51am PT
Measured and calibrated from your ass ....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 5, 2014 - 11:00am PT
One word: BJBP
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 5, 2014 - 11:03am PT
on Werner's planet the big siren goes off tuesday @noon.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 5, 2014 - 11:21am PT
This should show everyone a little something about repubs.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Isn't it nice that we have a socialized military where even someone like the Chief can make it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 5, 2014 - 11:53am PT
"Nothing will change, Obama will veto and then 2016 will come quickly."

And just like before, we'll have morons who think that the Senate leadership change will actually make any kind of difference in their pathetic, little lives.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Can't wait to see some of the stone age bills coming from republicans in the future.

Gays back to the closet and women's rights back to the BC period.


What state does the Chief live in??

Funny...http://m.thenation.com/blog/188329-californias-clear-message-republicans-not-interested


Time to move to Idaho Chuff.


Dumb and dumber, America's least educated states, all red to the core.

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2014/09/23/americas-most-and-least-educated-states/5/
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 5, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
"Nothing will change, Obama will veto and then 2016 will come quickly."

true, nothing will change

because just as the Dems in the Senate did not have enough votes to pass legislation, now so
do the Repubs do not have enough votes

and in two short years Hillary Clinton will be elected President and the Dems will take back the Senate

but the House will remain in Repub control until at least 2020, so no meaningful legislation will be passed in the next 6 years that actually benefits middle class Americans

the status quo was preserved last night
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 5, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
"Dumb and dumber, America's least educated states, all red to the core."

4. Nevada
> Bachelor’s degree or higher: 22.5%
> Median household income: $51,230 (25th lowest)
> Pct. below poverty level: 15.8% (24th highest)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
Just remember, Apogee, that's who elected Harry Reid.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
Nice map Sketch, America continues it's march back to the stone age.


Look at the most populated areas, Blue!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 5, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
Such a map means nothing unless its visually weighted by population.

Then it looks a bit more 50/50.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Looks like a perfect map for a Hillary win.

Quick: name 1 accomplishment of the current Republican congress.
Waiting...
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 5, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
you know what, John E?

whether you agree with his politics or not, and obviously you do not, one certainly has to admit
that Harry Reid has been a very, very effective and able majority leader of the Senate

his job is to marshall legislation through the Senate and in that regard he has been highly effective

Harry Reid corralled the 58 Dems and 2 Independent Senators together in the very brief number of days he had to work with and brilliantly passed the single most beneficial legislation for low and middle class Americans since the 1960s, the ACA

you JohnE, have no solid ground to stand on in your weak attempt at a slam against Harry Reid
being elected by "dumb" Nevadans
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
Norton wrote:
you JohnE, have no solid ground to stand on in your weak attempt at a slam against Harry Reid being election by "dumb" Nevadans

Yeah, I thought he was elected by the mob.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Iowa: Christie vs. Clinton Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Clinton 43, Christie 38 Clinton +5
Iowa: Paul vs. Clinton Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Clinton 44, Paul 41 Clinton +3
Iowa: Bush vs. Clinton Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Clinton 46, Bush 39 Clinton +7
Iowa: Ryan vs. Clinton Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Clinton 44, Ryan 43 Clinton +1
Iowa: Rubio vs. Clinton Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Clinton 45, Rubio 37 Clinton +8
Iowa: Cruz vs. Clinton Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Clinton 45, Cruz 35 Clinton +10
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
his job is to marshall legislation through the Senate and in that regard he has been highly effective

I agree with the first half of your sentence. The second part is nonsense. His "no amendments" policy led the Senate to morph for "The World's Greatest Deliberative Body" to the world's least deliberative body.

He had no intention of marshalling legislation through after the 2010 election. Rather, he saw his job as doing everything possible to assist his cronies in their unsuccessful effort to regain the House majority and hang on to their Senate majority. The cynical delay of votes - coupled with the equally cynical delays by the President in his actions - reflected their effort to remain in power regardless of consequences to the American people.

As for the rest of your comments, I was simply pointing out to Apogee - a supporter of Democrats - that his brickbats hurled at Nevada voters didn't reflect well on those who elected Mr. Reid.

John
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
All Ted, all Sarah, all the time!!

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
"We shouldn't be gloating over the fact of winning red states," said Republican pollster Neil Newhouse, noting that this year's Senate battles mostly took place in reliably conservative states in the South and interior West. "That's not a very high bar."

One-third of the Senate comes up for reelection every two years, and by luck of the draw, the states in this year's batch are disproportionately conservative. Indeed, of the three classes of Senate seats, this year's group has been the least representative of the country over the last few election cycles, according to an analysis of election data by Patrick J. Egan, a political scientist at New York University.

A win is a win, no matter the caveats. The GOP has solidified its dominance of the South, strengthened its hand in Washington and further weakened President Obama's ability to influence the national agenda."
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
I read that Harry Reid, during his term as Majority Leader, blocked voting in the Senate on over 300 bills that had passed the House.
To not even allow a vote seems like acute partisanship, but that's part of Harry effectiveness.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Die is cast. Let's see what the GOP does with it.

They have run on preventing anything constructive from getting done until now. Let's see if they actually have a plan to DO anything other than undoing things now that they have the power. If they don't, they will need to go back obstructing Hillary two years from now.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
Political part by state (red=R blue=D)


Government debt per capita by state
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 5, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
I totally agree ,Stahlbro.

The clock starts.Let us all see what the Republicans can get done with their 2 years.

I can guarantee this,I will be very surprised if it is anything good for the common man.


edit; Is there a city with over 1 million people in any one of those all red states?http://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 5, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
Where those the all red states ,sketch?

I will give you SLC.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 5, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Same to you.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
At least they are smart enought to stop tea bagging the teabaggers
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 5, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
That map is color coded for 'best places to live'.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 5, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
Being in debt doesn't make one a freeloader. How many of us have a mortgage? Not paying it off makes one a deadbeat, but states aren't doing that.

Secondly, my cityfied taxes subsidize Washington's rural counties 7 dollars to every 1 they bring in in taxes, and I'm fine with that. If you live in a rural county, you're very likely one of those tax 'freeloaders', but that's cool. That's the price of civilization.

Furthermore, I live in one of the finest - the most cultured, beautiful, prosperous, diverse and interesting cities in the world. In my own small way, I help make this city what it is - I'm part of it. I'm grateful for that.

I've been to Nevada numerous times. I was born there, actually, and lived there my first 2 years on this planet. I happen to like Nevada for many reasons, but I'm a city boy, and Nevada isn't the best place for people like me. No ocean, no glaciers, no rain forests, few whitewater rivers, and a culture that is, sorry to say, dismal for the most part. It just doesn't have what the northwest does.

Then there's my family. I've got a Mexican brother in law, a Japanese brother in law, and a gay brother. I'm not scared of the dark - dark skin, dark pasts, dark predictions, so, constitutionally, I'm a very different animal than you, Chief. I'm a social guy that likes all kinds of folks and cultures.

I know the kind of personality a lifetime on a navy ship can produce. My dad was a chief petty officer. He was angry, ashamed of his past bad behavior, emotionally shut off, and closed minded. Sound familiar?

Yeah, I think maybe it does,but that's just a guess, because after all, this is the internet, and that's just what we do.

thebravecowboy

climber
walking, resin-stained, towards the goal
Nov 5, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
Chief, what's an Asshat Sheep?
WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
Oh my

More mental speculations and projections by Tvash onto an internet forum entity .....
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 5, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
I'm sure there's going to be all kinds of change. Same gridlocked bullshit as always. Asshat sheep republicans are the same as asshat sheep democrats. F*#k politicians and their "change".
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 5, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Ah, yes.... The republicans....


All the power.... with none of the responsibility for any of their boneheaded actions...

(REPAYMENT OF ANY DEBTS TO BE PAID BY ALL FUTURE GENERATIONS)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 5, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:15pm PT

STFU TeeGeaTee


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
Chief, the lady who won in SD appealed to the low IQ voters, ones just like you.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
No comment!!!!
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
Sweet ^^^^^ picture. tfpu.

This says it all.
November 5 2014
CHARLESTON, W.Va. (CBSDC/AP) — Eighteen-year-old Saira Blair will become the
youngest state lawmaker in West Virginia history.


The Republican defeated Democrat Layne Diehl on Tuesday to win a seat in the
state House of Delegates to become the youngest state lawmaker in the U.S..


“History has been made tonight in West Virginia, and while I am proud of all
that we have accomplished together, it is the future of this state that is
now my singular focus,” Blair said in a statement. “Since launching my
campaign, I have met with and listened to the concerns of my fellow
citizens, and as your delegate I will work tirelessly, and fight for each
and every one of you. Now, it is time to get to work.”
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Well, Larry, that comment sort of sums up how a lot of people lead their lives - Waiting For Gubmint Goodbar.
Having just returned from Italy I can assure you that Southern Italy, which follows that system, sucks big time.
Northern Italy, where people go out and make lives for themselves, is doing quite nicely, thank you,
although no thanks to their layabout southern cousins who the northeners support.

Hey, just like over here!
November 3, 2004

F*#k the South. F*#k 'em. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. But no, we had to kill half a million people so they'd stay part of our special Union. Fighting for the right to keep slaves - yeah, those are states we want to keep.

And now what do we get? We're the f*#king Arrogant Northeast Liberal Elite? How about this for arrogant: the South is the Real America? The Authentic America. Really?

Cause we f*#king founded this country, as#@&%es. Those Founding Fathers you keep going on and on about? All that bullshit about what you think they meant by the Second Amendment giving you the right to keep your assault weapons in the glove compartment because you didn't bother to read the first half of the f*#king sentence? Who do you think those wig-wearing lacy-shirt sporting revolutionaries were? They were f*#king blue-staters, dickhead. Boston? Philadelphia? New York? Hello? Think there might be a reason all the f*#king monuments are up here in our backyard?

No, No. Get the f*#k out. We're not letting you visit the Liberty Bell and f*#king Plymouth Rock anymore until you get over your real American selves and start respecting those other nine amendments. Who do you think those f*#king stripes on the flag are for? Nine are for f*#king blue states. And it would be 10 if those Vermonters had gotten their f*#king Subarus together and broken off from New York a little earlier. Get it? We started this sh#t, so don't get all uppity about how real you are you Johnny-come-lately "Oooooh I've been a state for almost a hundred years" dickheads. F*#k off.

Arrogant? You wanna talk about us Northeasterners being f*#king arrogant? What's more American than arrogance? Hmmm? Maybe horsies? I don't think so. Arrogance is the f*#king cornerstone of what it means to be American. And I wouldn't be so f*#king arrogant if I wasn't paying for your f*#king bridges, bitch.

All those Federal taxes you love to hate? It all comes from us and goes to you, so shut up and enjoy your f*#king Tennessee Valley Authority electricity and your fancy highways that we paid for. And the next time Florida gets hit by a hurricane you can come crying to us if you want to, but you're the ones who built on a f*#king swamp. "Let the Spanish keep it, it’s a shithole," we said, but you had to have your f*#king orange juice.

The next dickwad who says, "It’s your money, not the government's money" is gonna get their ass kicked. Nine of the ten states that get the most federal f*#king dollars and pay the least... can you guess? Go on, guess. That’s right, motherf*#ker, they're red states. And eight of the ten states that receive the least and pay the most? It’s too easy, as#@&%e, they’re blue states. It’s not your money, as#@&%es, it’s f*#king our money. What was that Real American Value you were spouting a minute ago? Self reliance? Try this for self reliance: buy your own f*#king stop signs, as#@&%es.

Let’s talk about those values for a f*#king minute. You and your Southern values can bite my ass because the blue states got the values over you f*#king Real Americans every day of the goddamn week. Which state do you think has the lowest divorce rate you marriage-hyping dickwads? Well? Can you guess? It’s f*#king Massachusetts, the f*#king center of the gay marriage universe. Yes, that’s right, the state you love to tie around the neck of anyone to the left of Strom Thurmond has the lowest divorce rate in the f*#king nation. Think that’s just some aberration? How about this: 9 of the 10 lowest divorce rates are f*#king blue states, as#@&%e, and most are in the Northeast, where our values suck so bad. And where are the highest divorce rates? Care to f*#king guess? 10 of the top 10 are f*#king red-ass we're-so-f*#king-moral states. And while Nevada is the worst, the Bible Belt is doing its f*#king part.

But two guys making out is going to f*#king ruin marriage for you? Yeah? Seems like you're ruining it pretty well on your own, you little bastards. Oh, but that's ok because you go to church, right? I mean you do, right? Cause we f*#king get to hear about it every goddamn year at election time. Yes, we're fascinated by how you get up every Sunday morning and sing, and then you're f*#king towers of moral superiority. Yeah, that's a workable formula. Maybe us f*#king Northerners don't talk about religion as much as you because we're not so busy sinning, hmmm? Ever think of that, you self-righteous as#@&%es? No, you're too busy erecting giant stone tablets of the Ten Commandments in buildings paid for by the f*#king Northeast Liberal Elite. And who has the highest murder rates in the nation? It ain't us up here in the North, as#@&%es.

Well this gravy train is f*#king over. Take your liberal-bashing, federal-tax-leaching, confederate-flag-waving, holier-than-thou, hypocritical bullshit and shove it up your a*#.

And no, you can't have your f*#king convention in New York next time. F*#k off.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
Sketch..How's this for a spin...Veto....
Dal Maxvill

Social climber
Granite City, Illinois
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
The Chief, we'll see what tune you sing when the Republicans shutdown the government and your checks stop rolling in.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
It makes sense that da chief and the other mouth-breathers on this thread would pile on and celebrate, just like their up-scale brethern that drive the stock market were supposed to do.

OOOOOOps. The markets were mixed today & barely up, vs being up around 8% in the last two weeks.

It's OK!

It's a big day for the conservative poor.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
"No comment!!!!" = STFU

STFU = "No comment!!!!"
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
"The Chief, we'll see what tune you sing when the Republicans shutdown the government and your checks stop rolling in."


Bwahahaahahahahahahaaaaahahaa!
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 05:22am PT
Enjoy it while it lasts, righties, cuz it won't last long.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 05:46am PT
To all you celebrating conservatives...

You did not win on ideas.
You did not win because voters are eager for your yet-to-be-determined policies.
You did not win because the general electorate has taken a swing to the right.

You won because you broke government. You won on that strategy.
Your new leader, McConnell, mapped it out to perfection.
Stall evey bill, every appointment. Then scream about executive overreach.
Plan on your pals at Fox and talk radio to cooperate 24/7.
He figured the voters would put the blame on the presidents party and it worked.
A brilliant plan at the expense of the American people.

That's the gang in power now. The lunatics are running the asylum.



pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:07am PT
crankster = ignorant voter!
obama got that right he target ignorant voters..
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:13am PT
Your knowledge of how politics works is lacking, Cragman. And you must believe everything you hear on Fox. I suspect Hillary's election in 2 years will enlighten you.

And Cragman, I thought you were a better person than to laugh at racists jokes. I guess my general opinion of religious conservatives was correct.

Again, celebrate now, right wingers, it won't last long.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:25am PT
Yeah, republicans are gloating, just like democrats did in the last election. Comes around, goes around.

This election was a rejection of Obama's policies and Harry Reid's tactics. Obama saying he was not repudiated is an example of spitting, not swallowing. Many young and smart republicans emerged to prominence. The bad news for republicans is that being republicans, they will likely blow their opportunity to connect with minorities.


The next election will favor democrats in senate races where republicans have to defend in blueish states and there will be a bigger turnout.
The bad news for dems is Hillary will be pushing 70 and she will always be seen by too many as America's ex-wife. She just lacks the likeability and cool factors that are unfortunately necessary in today's pop culture elections. Who else have they got that isn't old? Of course how many ever heard of Obama back in 2006?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:29am PT
Crankster,
Jon Stewart of comedy central said that the race card was overdrawn over 2 years ago.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:33am PT
Political parties can change. They'd better or they'll die.


How well their new blood will connect with minorities remains to be seen.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:39am PT
... the election went the way it did because Americans now see that Obama is clueless.


Yes, Americans are so insightful, they elected W twice and believe Regan implemented a working economic model. They eat the lies told to them by the MSM daily, and get fat of talking points that don't go near the real policies or address the real troubles we face as a nation/world.

Blame it all on Obama. Well, except for the turn-around of the economy.

It's pretty funny to hear folks say "Turn this country around!" Do they mean turn it around to the way it was when Obama took office?

Talk about clueless.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:47am PT
as i said, often, in the original thread, we appear to be wrong because we're so often so far ahead of you libs...we've always understood "dissent is patriotic"; that's the whole basis of our government, which you libs only discovered when W was elected and then forgot when barry was elected but will probably rediscover now

we've always understood that "gridlock" is actually the separation of powers and, again, the basis of our government...well, it seems some libs are discovering, this, too:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/democrats-have-2-choices-gridlock-or-disaster.html


like you'll suddenly realize harry's rewriting the rules of the senate was a bad idea and that allowing the minority party to have a voice is a good idea...hopefully you won't have to lose your jobs to realize amnesty is a bad idea or lose your health coverage to realize barrycare is a bad idea or lose your head to realize a "don't do stupid sh*t" foreign policy is a bad idea
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:53am PT
The last government shut down had Fed. employees furloughed but they still got payed for the time they had off from work...Not a very effective shutdown or value for the tax payers...Hopefully the change in Senate seats will break gridlock unlike the do-nothing Republican Congress , but don't hold your breath...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:54am PT
barry finally discovers american exceptionalism, which, of course, revolves around him:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-most-important-organization-earth-us-government_818270.html
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:54am PT
... we've always understood "dissent is patriotic"; that's the whole basis of our government, which you libs only discovered when W was elected and then forgot when barry was elected ...


Wow bookworm, do you really believe your generalizations?

Loose your healhcare? What about the millions who now have healthcare because of the ACA? Oh right, you don't count those on the bottom tier of our country, those below the 1% mark.

All I hear from the GOP are that Obama's plans are wrong. But I have yet to hear any plans from them that will actually work for 99% of our country.

Can you? If so, enlighten us as to what they are.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:02am PT
wait until mcconnell gets his way and they sign the TPP and your towns water supply has no way to stop the water from being contaminated because drilling was an economic necessity for the Multi-National, Multi-Billion Dollar Corporation from another country has it's way with your towns/states/countries laws...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Then maybe making money will take on a new meaning for us citizens at the bottom of the socioeconomic slope.


Just take a look at all the good NAFTA has done for America (Remember... this is part of the real reason the border is so porous.. REPUBLICANS DEMAND IT TO BE SO)

[Click to View YouTube Video]

And republicans are steering the car on this doomed trip to the bottom.

Maybe one day... Hopefully one day.... I am proven wrong.
My fear is that it is already too late for us.

http://www.citizen.org/tradewatch

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:08am PT
So Obama's leadership wasn't a major factor in this election?


The SCOTUS was the leader in this last election. Citizens United, Voter Rights. That and the GOP megaphone that is FOX News (the news program that disguises opinion pieces as news).


It would be interesting to see how the GOP would fair if Fox News had to tell the truth, or if all candidates were allowed equal air time.

It would also be interesting to see where we'd be if Congress didn't do anything but obstruct. One thing is for sure, this election wasn't won or lost because of policies enacted in Congress.

Where do the American people get their ideas about what our Gov't is, or isn't, doing? Who owns those media outlets? Get a clue Sketch.

How about you Sketch. Can you name the successful polices of the GOP? If we "turn this country around," in what direction are you talking about?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:11am PT
Are you implying 99% of our country currently has healthcare?

Um, not sure how you read that out of what I wrote.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2014 - 07:13am PT
Good stuff k-man. You're on a roll.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2014 - 07:14am PT
Yes it is the old white male party.


Anecdotes are fun but the proof is in the larger data set.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:19am PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:23am PT
Jingy, right on.

We're looking at Good Cop/Bad Cop. Dems/GOP. They just switch roles every so often.

On NAFTA:

NAFTA, a trade pact between the United States, Canada, and Mexico, eliminated virtually all tariffs and trade restrictions between the three nations. The passage of NAFTA was one of Clinton's first major victories as the first Democratic president in 12 years--though the movement for free trade in North America had begun as a Republican initiative.

The people in power do not change seats every few years. They have been sitting in power for decades, and more.

Independent news outlets, please support them.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2014 - 07:32am PT
Right dirtbag?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Demographics are not on the GOP's side. So enjoy it now, fellas.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:35am PT
Was Obama's leadership a major factor in this election?

There were many factors involved in how this past election turned out.

I believe that many of Obama's policies would have been very successful if there was a Congress that worked to enact those policies. But we obviously will never know.

One thing we do know, Obama could not be successful with the obstructionists in Congress. This was the masterful plan put in place by your GOP. It's too bad that this is seen as a game, where the idea is to "win" at all costs. Because who is are the real losers here?

I'm not a fan of how Obama negotiated with the GOP. But I don't buy the lie that says the election was a landslide because of Obama's leadership skills, or because of his policies. If you buy that, then you're not paying attention.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:40am PT
flip burgers
When did honest work of any sort become a joke?
It would seem conservatives rail against public assistance as nanny state and then poke political fun at someone working an entry level job.

That's the elitism of the conservatives that anger many libs.

Anyone working, flipping burgers, or something else is worthy of respect....not an attempt to demean because they actually took part in the democratic process.

Is this the "turn around"? Jokes and demeaning those in entry level jobs?


Susan
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:46am PT
Let's play a little game. Let's say that the American people don't like the policies that Obama and his administration are trying to enact.

Now it's your turn to play. You can say one of two things:

(A) We don't like O's policies.

(B) Here are our better policies ...


I hear you all say A, but not B.

Here's the game: Can you come up with B?


It's easy to point a finger and say, "It's your fault." Harder is to come up with ideas of your own that will work.

The GOP now has the stage. Think they will be able to switch to (B)?


Oh, and here's the catch. Remember who turned the country around for the better over the past few administrations.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:48am PT
Interesting article in the LA Times about what this election's voter demographics predicts for the next presidential election. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/a-look-at-voter-turnout-suggests-2016-wont-be-easy-for-republicans/ar-BBdbIO9

The more troubling picture for Republicans as they look ahead to the presidential race in 2016 is this: Although they won in what some are calling a red tsunami, the long-standing rules about midterm elections held true. They won largely because the voters who turn out tend to be more white and more conservative than those who turn out in presidential years.

A Wednesday analysis of exit poll data by the Pew Research Center found that men and older Americans were central to the GOP gains, and that there was little evidence that the party made progress closing its deficits among women or young voters.

Exit polls showed that men cast their ballots for Republicans by a 16 percentage point margin and women favored Democrats by a 4 percentage point margin, similar to margins in the 2010 midterm election. Republicans also held a 16 percentage point lead over their Democratic opponents among voters who were 65 and older, who made up 22 percent of the 2014 electorate compared with just 16 percent in 2012.

By contrast, voters younger than 30 — who favor Democrats — handed in 13 percent of the ballots cast, compared with 12 percent in 2010. In 2012, they made up nearly 19 percent of the electorate.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:48am PT
K-man wrote:
I believe that many of Obama's policies would have been very successful if there was a Congress that worked to enact those policies. But, we obviously will never know.

That's like saying I could be king of the world if only everybody listened to me.
This government was set up for checks and balances. The opposition party advocates their own philosophy. In fact, that is their responsibility. If politicians want an opposition party to vote for their policies, they have to be willing to give something back. Gridlock or compromise has been the norm for most of this country's history.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:52am PT
That's like saying I could be king of the world if only everybody listened to me.

No, it's not Larry.

And our country has never been so grid-locked as it is now, don't fool yourself.

In the past, congress worked across the aisle to get things done. Just listen to the folks who have been there for decades. The batch you have in there now, forget it.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2014 - 08:04am PT
No Sketch. Turnout was on the GOP's side.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:34am PT
^^^^some people shouldn't be allowed coffee in the morning. ^^^^^
You need to go for a ride.

Susan

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:35am PT
pathetic voter participation in this midterm = voters don't give a damn


"We're probably going to have the lowest-turnout election (nationally) since 1942. It's that bad. And that was in the midst of World War II when people couldn't vote because they were off at war," said Michael McDonald, a political science professor at the University of Florida who specializes in voter turnout.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:36am PT
Give em hell,SC :)
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:43am PT
2016 is right around the corner...get ready for President Hillary Clinton.

This shows in nutshell how stupid politards really are and why they are stupid worthless people.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:43am PT
The righties here, from the moderates to the fringe lunatics, are a good example of how effective rightwing media is - they parrot the stuff verbatim.

Let em think what they want. They will find out soon they did not win a war of ideas. Soon, the infighting for power will become the story, as will the realization that this mob has no idea about how to govern.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:45am PT
k-man quoted
NAFTA, a trade pact between the United States, Canada, and Mexico, eliminated virtually all tariffs and trade restrictions between the three nations. The passage of NAFTA was one of Clinton's first major victories as the first Democratic president in 12 years--though the movement for free trade in North America had begun as a Republican initiative.

 You can bet that this will be the pattern that will be used again, but with much greater, and more desperate measures.

It's almost as if the people have the ability to look back on what didn't work all those years ago... and they actively want more...

(Creepy Cannibal Insect Video Here - coming soon)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:54am PT
You Republitards will glom onto any little shred of hope you have, won't you?

Completely missing the big picture...the electorate is changing, and not in the direction of the rigid, medieval GOP.

It's like being optimistic about the fact you can see the bathroom light when you are swirling down the toilet. Feel good, Republitards!
John M

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:54am PT
Warbler...Is the economy better now than it was when Obama took office?

Apparently Americans as a whole do not think so.

Poll: Americans grim on economy ahead of midterms

poor example Chief. The economy can be better then when Obama took office and still be pretty scary.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 08:59am PT
Climate change-denying, far-righties must have amnesia. They forgot the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression happened on their watch.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2014 - 09:02am PT
Unemployment has dropped, the deficit is down, inflation is zip, GDP is healthy, real estate prices are recovering, and the stock market is roaring.

I'll take more Obama "f*#k ups," thank you very much.
John M

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:07am PT
no its not Chief.

the economy could have been worse. So at least Obama didn't screw that up. Its unlikely that anything he did could have fixed it completely, since it was so far in the toilet and he was dealing with an obstructionist congress.

Its more like saying..

Bush put 1,000,000 peoples lives in jeopardy by letting in the terrorist.

Obama has so far saved 900.000 lives, 100.000 are still at risk, but folks are gripping because he hasn't yet saved all 100,000, all while ignoring that fact that he was handed such an unmitigated mess and we came close to losing the whole 1000,000. Thanks to what the previous admin did.

He didn't put the million at risk. He managed to save 900,000 of them. But you just go on complaining.

We came incredibly close to something that could have been worse then the great depression. Did you learn anything about that in school? Are you familiar with just how bad that was. We were a hairs breadth away from that and skating on thin ice.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:10am PT
dirtbagz got it right. the data speaks for itself
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:14am PT
Chief...look at the light...be optimistic, as you & your Party swirl down the toilet!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:19am PT
The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded a$#hat Sheep

Nov 6, 2014 - 09:18am PT
My Party???

Nope. I was a DEM till last MAY apogee. I voted for Obama and other DEMS both in 08 and 12.


Gave up on all that "HOPE/CHANGE" bullshet and re-registered as an Independent.

Why change?

Wait.. you bought the hope and change shite?

And what did you think that meant?
How was the hope and change going to effect you when you were voting for it? And how has that changed?
And how can a repub give you that?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:20am PT
Alaska, Oregon and Washington DC have something in common


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:30am PT
^^^ This guy used to be registered as a dem... now registered independent... ^^^


John M

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:31am PT
the only hope and change I believed in was that Rumsfield, Cheney and Rove were not going to have total control of the reins anymore. That is exactly as far as my belief in hope and change went. And I was grateful that Palin wasn't going to be that close to being the President. What an unmitigated disaster that would have been. If you got sucked in by all the hype, well, then perhaps you should look at yourself.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:33am PT
the only hope and change I believed in was that Rumsfield, Cheney and Rove were not going to have total control of the reins anymore.

 +1 - 100%
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:38am PT
Good gawd. The chief, your spittle rag must be soaked from wiping off your monitor.
Put your mouth where your ass is and let's see the repubs do something for Veterans instead of stopping everything.

Susan
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:01am PT
Yes Sketch, I read the article.
But I still have my own opinion on the election.
steven Curtis

Trad climber
Petaluma
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:05am PT
Face it: Most of us have huge blind spots.

Bush's comments about the irrelevance of old Europe, and Hillary's recent comment on jobs and government show that even the most political creatures are not immune.

The best try to understand where their misunderstandings lay, and then change themselves. Others conclude their blind spots are actually their opponents' blind spots, and attempt to do battle with blunt sticks.

Shame for the title of this thread.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:12am PT
"Put your mouth where your ass is and let's see the repubs do something for Veterans instead of stopping everything."

Worth repeating.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:21am PT
Weak, Chief.

But when someone close to us is dying a slow, horrible death, we tend to see any short moment of improvement as evidence of a turnaround.

Then the patient dies, and you move on. Enjoy your delusion, Chief.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2014 - 10:29am PT
Stick to jackalope stuffing.
John M

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:30am PT
It was the stain from an administration that has had more scams charged against it that any I can remember.

you have a short memory

which leads to statements like this.. "sunken economy".
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:47am PT
"Stick to jackalope stuffing."

Bwahahahahahahaaaaa!

SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:54am PT
S 1982, Sanders, would have provided broad sweeping Vet benefits. All Senate Repubs, except 2 voted against it. This legislation was endorsed by a wide range of veteran organizations. Some legislative opposers cited the cost of doing this comprehensive of a benefits package. Obstructionism at its finest.

Does it surprise me that, finally, a bill introduced by a Republican would pass? Of course not. The Dems did not play obstructionist politics with this bill, regardless of Reid and Pelosi.

So if the pieces of S 1982 eventually get introduced piecemeal, and pass, that will eventually be helpful to veterans. But why in the world did they have to wait because of obstructionist politics. More veterans down the rabbit hold because of politics.

I do believe that the Dems will not obstruct legislation to assist Veterans in the way that the Repubs created huge voting blocks of obstruction. The Repubs can come out the heroes now of supporting Veterans if that is what they wish to do. It would be nice to see them finally do the right thing in a comprehensive omnibus manner. No more bits and pieces of which each creates its own bureaucracy.

Susan
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Nov 6, 2014 - 11:13am PT
One of the primary reasons Repugs sat on his particular bill cus it was clearly a redundant bill that was already included within HR 3230.

Oh, I get it. Sit on a bill that benefits Vets because the other party sponsored it. Makes clear political sense to me. Playing with lives.


Susan


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 11:15am PT
This is why republicans are wrong about everything...

Remember... republicans did this...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 11:44am PT
Spot on, Susan.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
This was the billionaires' election, billionaires of both parties.

And while the Republican and Democratic Party billionaires have some differences, what unites them is much stronger than what divides them, a few exceptions aside. Indeed, many of the richest individual and corporate donors give to both parties. The much-discussed left-right polarization is not polarization at all. The political system is actually relatively united and working very effectively for the richest of the rich.

There has never been a better time for the top 1%. The stock market is soaring, profits are high, interest rates are near zero, and taxes are low. The main countervailing forces -- unions, antitrust authorities, and financial regulators -- have been clobbered.


Understanding and Overcoming America's Plutocracy
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Is the economy better now than it was when Obama took office?

With all due respect, that's only one question about economic performance. The economy has performed exceedingly poorly during most of the Obama administration's tenure, generating the weakest post-war recovery, by far. Every other deep post-war recession ended with a vigorous recovery, except for this one.

Put slightly differently, the issue for economic performance is more than the endpoints. If I make more money in January and December of this year than I did in January and December of 2013, am I better off? Don't I need to know how I did in the other ten months? For the Obama economy, the months in between were abysmal.

Americans were not irrational in thinking that they would have been far better off if the country had pursued different economic policies from those enacted in 2009 and 2010.

John

Edit: k-man, the Obama years have been good for the billionaires. It's been poor for the rest of us.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
You post a lengthy, well researched article, on how the GOP did so well in the election.... and then you ignore it... coming up with a completely different story.... short on facts...

I didn't ignore the story, as you foolishly state. I folded what I read into my perception of what took place.

Short on facts? What, you don't think there's proof that "dark money" and the Republican efforts to make voting more difficult for millions influenced the election, as I stated?

You don't think that there is proof that FOX News and other MSM outlets, owned by corporate conglomerations, have a large influence on how the voting public perceives the American political system?

Tell me, what influences peoples perception of our government, both Congress and the Executive Branch? Do you think they get their ideas from watching C-SPAN??

No, instead you want to believe it's just Obama, flumbering along, that caused this turnout. Yeah, let's turn this whole thing back around, to where it came from before Obama took office--the previous GOP administrations were doing such a swell job.

Short on facts? No, I don't think so.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
John, you well know exactly which half of Congress has defended our ridiculously regressive tax structure. Come on, man. You can do better than that.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
k-man, the Obama years have been good for the billionaires. It's been poor for the rest of us.


John, are you sure that it's just the Obama years that have been good for the billionaires? As I recall, the W years weren't so great for the middle class either.

As a side note, any recovery is going to take energy + resources. You cannot snap your fingers and create wealth out of nothing--more "money" does not equate to more wealth.

With so many folks looking at the astronomical debt, of both this nation and the world, from where do you think the resources for a robust recovery will materialize?

!~~~!

Stealing a post from the Climate thread:

Humanity Now Needs 1.5 Earths


That article fell out of this pretty right-on assessment:

How to Shrink the Economy without Crashing It: A Ten-Point Plan

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
^^^ +1 ^^^
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Helloooo Bush tax cuts! This is a PAINFULLY obvious issue.

No cigar, John. Not even a Tiparillo.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
JE: I always enjoy your polite posts, but I must add a clarifying question to this assertion:

With all due respect, that's only one question about economic performance. The economy has performed exceedingly poorly during most of the Obama administration's tenure, generating the weakest post-war recovery, by far. Every other deep post-war recession ended with a vigorous recovery, except for this one.

In those previous economic recoveries, was the oppossing party in congress activly trying to make the recession worse by stopping economic recovery measures from being introduced?

And in regard to another of your assertions:

Edit: k-man, the Obama years have been good for the billionaires. It's been poor for the rest of us.


Although I am far from achieving billionaire status: the last 6 years have been the best earning years of my life.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:57pm PT
"...the Obama years have been good for the billionaires. It's been poor for the rest of us."

And exactly how is this any different than the Bush years?

And did you really think that McCain or Romney would have pursued policies that would have benefitted the 99% of us any better?
John M

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
the trickle down model is a failure - the "job creators" never delivered.

I certainly hope that more people start realizing this.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
This gets close to the reason for the election results...

A man who called into C-SPAN's "Washington Journal" Thursday morning referred to President Barack Obama as "that n***er" before getting booted off the air.

The caller, who gave his name as Anthony from San Diego, California, identified himself as a Republican and started out talking about the direction he thinks the new GOP majority in Congress should take.

"I would just like to say, that the Republicans -- and I'm a Republican -- please do not overreach," the caller began. "I know they're going to overreach but I'm telling you, if you advocate for the repeal of Obamacare and you get too extreme, then Hillary Clinton will be elected President in 2016."

"This is about race," he added. "The Republicans hate that nigger Obama."

Host Steve Scully quickly cut off the caller after he dropped the racial slur.

"Okay, I'm gonna stop you there," Scully said. "We're not gonna use that kind of language."

"You can certainly make your point, but you cross the line when you use language like that," he added. "And so to our viewers and listeners, I want to apologize."
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 6, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Liberal drum circle cry fest outta hand

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 6, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
You think government is dysfunctional now? We have not seen anything yet. It's gunna get really really bizarre.

Boners main priority.. repeal Obamacare. Yet they do not have enough votes to overturn Filibusters (without changing the rules again.. which they probably will do) But regardless they cannot overturn Vetoes.

Yeah.. this is going to go well.

Insanity... None of these folks that got hired are going to work on the peoples business.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 6, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
The right see's this guy as news anchorman today...

sad for the right...


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.
Abraham Lincoln

edited per correction by Apogee.
Quote by William John Henry Boetcker
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
'I need to see this play like I need a hole in the head.'
Abraham Lincoln
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it is difficult to determine whether or not they are genuine." -- Abraham Lincoln
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
Larry, you do realize that Lincoln quote regarding prosperity wasn't Lincoln's, right?

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln/prosperity.asp
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Hey Apogee,
My bad. Makes the last Lincoln quote I posted look prophetic.
But I did post that quote because there are universal truths in it.
That's my belief. Others may believe differently.
Politics is just religion in a different arena.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 6, 2014 - 05:26pm PT

nobody is proposing doing any of these things.

Just them


That's why the map now looks like this


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
TGT, you should keep that map around...it'll give you the kind of wood you haven't had in years.
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
Nov 6, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
So, I'm trying to contact Dr.F about buying a couple of his amazing cacti....anyone know what rock I can turn over to find him PM me please and carry on with your ideological game of supertopo stratego.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
It's funny that most Republicans think that any form of wealth redistribution is going to affect themselves in a negative way.

Oh no, we don't want to rock the boat of the top 1%! Then where would this country be?

What a joke.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
The other joke that is lost on the middle class repubs is the eternal cry for tax cuts...the only ones getting tax cuts are the 1% who by off -shoring their investments receive a tax break while the middle class republicans pay more to fill the void created by the off-shoring...Ha, ha...Dream on..
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 6, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
WELCOME TO PLUTOCRACY.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
Dave Kos wrote:
It's apparent that these quotes are bogus when they are attributed to someone from the 18th or even early 19th century.

Doesn't matter to me if the quote is bogus or not. As I said, there is universal truth in the essence of what it says. I edited the quote later to attribute it to the person Snopes attributes it to. I hope you don't feel like this quote is targeting your political or religious beliefs.
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
Looks like the politards got all tired from politarding all day today.

Tomorrow they can start again renewed.

Saying absolutely worthless nothing again as usual ........
son of stan

Boulder climber
San Jose CA
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Wbraun you are you not secretly smiling like all of us that
President Hussein does not seem to realize how suckie his job is going
to be for the next 2 years?
Special prosecutors for Holder and judge nominees laughed out of senate chambers, and the daily smirking at his lame duckieness.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
What's wrong with Holder exactly? Specific actions not agreed with. Great AG in my opinion.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 6, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
If you look at TGT's map, you'll notice that the blue is concentrated in all the places where people actually live.

As for class warfare:

“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

― Warren Buffett

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html?_r=0
John Ely

Trad climber
DC
Nov 6, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Why did he squeek by with 17000 votes? Because he voted in a public school with a weak ass climbing gym on the wall....Blue jeans cool in Northern Virigina....


http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-were-skewed-toward-democrats/
John M

climber
Nov 6, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
President Hussein does not seem to realize how suckie his job is going
to be for the next 2 years?

considering how many republicans on this site think dems don't want to work, it looks like Obama has set himself up for the perfect vacation. 2 years of doing nothing but vetoing. He can do that from anywhere. Then he gets lifetime salary and benefits. time to fire up air force one and see the world. And y'all thought he was an idiot..
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2014 - 06:41am PT

Wall Street Journal
Jobs Report: US Adds 214,000 Jobs; Unemployment Rate Falls to 5.8%

Hey, righties, here's the cure for Obama Derangement Syndrome...take it!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2014 - 06:46am PT
http://www.politicususa.com/2014/11/06/bernie-sanders-busts-boehner-terrifies-republicans-exposing-poisoned.html
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:08am PT
this really sent the msg!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:11am PT
Except where the majority of citizens live.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:12am PT
Here's a better chart, pyromaniac...

See the red part in 2008?...that's the mess the Republican president left.

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:16am PT
retail is hiring for the holiday'z!
gotta go find me a part time job..
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:17am PT
Not in office fr three days and I am already hearing that Ref*#ks want to repeal ACA....

I went from having insurgence provided by my employer (that I paid for from deductions taken by my company) to having no healthcare (Now Unemployed) to ref*#ks wanting to get rid of anything I have access to.

This is the reason I will die.
This is the reason I will despise every repfuk I meet.

What is the republican plan again...??

"Let'em die!!!!"


[Click to View YouTube Video]

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:28am PT
Seems that most times this happens, the next price change will be having it end up one hell of a lot higher...

 Agreed...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:38am PT
Because republicans are not for the people....

only for the corporations....

they don't have your best interest in mind...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Corporate interested idiots...

repubs don't realize when they sh#t in their own hats!!!
They tonguewash the balls of any and every corporate executive that will give them their gold without ever realizing what they are giving away in the deal.

Repubs are Selling America Down The River

[Click to View YouTube Video]

You fools are far to happy with your winnings to look up to notice...

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:03am PT
The fact that this President is getting advice from people that say, ‘You’re always right,’ is the problem,” Matthews said.

 After all, under Bush... things were so much different... "You're either with us, or with the enemy."

Who could possibly say don't go to war without being road our on a rail

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://jpmadoff.com/


Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:04am PT
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:32am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

If you were worth your weight... you be pointing at something other than me...

(Here, in the first minute you hear about a major corporation, paying a settlement for selling mortgages that were toxic to the world economy... (i.e. unregulated anything they wanted to call it, top shelf bull sh#t in a fancy bag)...

(All the while, republicans were telling us it was the public's fault, they the public were responsible for signing the deals that were being presented to them by the banks..... this is why have have nothing but contempt for the modern republican tongue-washer of corporate CEO testicles.)

This is the world republicans are making for us.

They want no regulation... of anything!!!

They are as toxic as the water supplies they govern.


For the republicans
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 Unfortunately for me... I am one of the people that republicans want to let die. I am one of the people that they would like to forget ever happened. They would rather not even know that I exist at all.
They are Republicans
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:53am PT
Sketch has a hard on for the this proud republican.


http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/meet-dr-chaps-gordon-klingenschmitt-colorados-new-anti-gay-demon-hunting-state-legislator
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:54am PT
Thanks Jingy...The economic meltdown sponsored by the party of family values... the repub party in a nutshell...power corrupts...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:57am PT

Good call Bob

True...
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2014 - 09:16am PT
The best president ever!!!!


He brought out all the politards to get together into the same room to kill each other off with their stupid arguments.

Once all these stupid politards are gone then the world will once again be free to live .......
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 09:20am PT
Come on Sketch... do tell what laws/policies of Obama has affected you in a negative way. Gay marriage, healthcare? Lowering unemployment, immigration? Your 401k, killing Bid Laden?

Speak up.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 7, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Sketch..TMI..
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 09:23am PT
The new GOP...setting America back a hundred years, Gay bashers, religious nut jobs and racists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/06/new-representatives-elect_n_6109016.html
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 09:24am PT
Sketch wrote: First Dave,

then Bob,

now Jingy...

You're all het up about my erect penis.

Please stop.


You are the one who needs to stop, both hands must be raw by now.
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2014 - 09:51am PT
The old attorney general was a guy named "Holder"

The new attorney general will be "Lynch"

Hahahaha oooohhhh mannnn you Americans are hosed .....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:29am PT
What have the last four years looked like to you?
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Sad pathetic republicans go on parade.

But no one will be able to hold them responsible for any of their actions while in office... or even in public...

Republicans mean no responsibility for them... only for you
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:43am PT
Sketch and the Mitch McConnel crowd are butt-hurt because Obama turned the economy around without Republican help while improving the lives of many Americans..The Sketches long for better times when Americans were unemployed and losing their homes...The sketches failed in their mission to make Obama a one term president...The sketches won the battle but lost the war..Mission accomplished..LOL...
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:45am PT
The GOP also lost on gay marriage. They are soundly winning the fight to dismantle education, a woman's right to choose, and concentrate the nations wealth in the hands of a few. They have also won some (and lost some) campaigns to suppress the minority and young vote.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:52am PT
The best president ever!!!!

At least the cardboard cutout is smarter than the original.

Curt
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Dumb as dirt republicans, the real reason they hate Obamacare, from Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/10/31/key-study-on-obamacare-2015-premium-rates-is-out-and-you-wont-believe-whats-going-to-happen/
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Another one who just stepped off Noah's Ark...http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/11/04/west-virginia-elects-americas-youngest-state-lawmaker/?mod=e2fb&mg=blogs-wsj&url=http%253A%252F%252Fblogs.wsj.com%252Fwashwire%252F2014%252F11%252F04%252Fwest-virginia-elects-americas-youngest-state-lawmaker%253Fmod%253De2fb
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 11:49am PT
Hilarious...should make Chief and Sketch happy.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120180/climate-denier-ted-cruz-may-lead-senate-science-subcommittee
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 11:59am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Just like repubs.....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 7, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2014 - 12:57pm PT
Like I said, the lunatics are running the asylum now. Meet the next chair of the senate Environment and Public Works committee.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Nov 7, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
While 65 percent of existing policies will see an increase in premium costs for 2015, the medium increase will be just 4 percent.

I thought Obamacare was supposed to make health care costs LOWER. This is still twice the rate of inflation, and it is on top of already astronomical rates.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 7, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
Crack Addict...Single payer...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
Why do repubs like charter schools?

Pay to play..
Segregated...
oh, and the nearly unlimited funds that can be got through opening them...

http://click.lists.propublica.net/?qs=8c5ab74cbcaa763183b511976d9cf75ece63531cd83f61ba91cd468a3cb52a64a4cb94aae26692e6

North Carolina Tells Charter-School Chain It Can’t Keep Administrator Salaries Secret

The schools’ management company, which receives millions in public funds each year from the schools, says that the salaries paid to school administrators should be considered a trade secret.

The North Carolina State Board of Education has issued a warning to a charter-school chain for failing to comply with an agency order to disclose the salaries of school administrators. The schools have been put on "financial probationary status," which could lead to sanctions if their board does not comply within 10 business days.

This is the same charter-school chain, Charter Day School, Inc., that ProPublica wrote about last month. As we reported, the four charter schools channel millions in public education dollars each year to for-profit companies owned by the schools' founder, businessman Baker Mitchell. One of the for-profit companies, Roger Bacon Academy, is paid to run all the day-to-day operations of the schools. As we wrote:

Roger Bacon Academy functions as the schools' administrative arm, taking the lead in hiring and firing school staff.

It handles most of the bookkeeping. The treasurer of the nonprofit that controls the four schools is also t he chief financial officer of Mitchell's management company. The two organizations even share a bank account.

Mitchell's management company was chosen by the schools' nonprofit board, which Mitchell was on at the time — an arrangement that is illegal in many other states.



But repubs would never do such a thing...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
For the likes of Chief and Sketch...https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=485015298234731
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Let's here a republicans tell us the truth about anything....?

Not one of your republic*#ks@ckers know what is being said here...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 7, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
You thought wrong. Lowering the costs of insurance premiums was never a goal of ACA.




Controlling your life was.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Looks like it is controlling yours.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
OK you two, put that laser pointer down. Angry Kitty's had enough.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
Hey righties, what happened to the ebola crisis? Obama failed, we're all gonna die!!!
Didn't happen.

What happened to $5 gas, drill, baby, drill?
Didn't happen. Just paid $2.85/gal. Get your Hummers out of storage.

What happened to ISIS streaming over the border?
Don't see em.

What happened to the War on the Border? Where are the outraged bused-in patriots?
All that settled down.

What happened to the Bundy Ranch War?
Crazies went home.

What about the Duck Dynasty Dude? He's still a homophobe on the air, right?
Who cares.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

yup.... They are batshit crazy

Reagan = Original Teabagger
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
Exactly WHY they are wrong about everything.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 7, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
da chief: re your comment


Me... I am staying right the fk here. Been to more countries around this globe than either Bobda or Jingy could ever dream of going to. Every continent and over 182 countries to be exact. After doing so for over 24 and years, I can clearly and unequivocally say, America is the Best Nation on this planet.



Makes me happy to see that we are both happy with our wonderful country.

At times I worry we exist in different worlds.

Jest think: we both like mountains, desert, climbing, firearms, fishing, &
solitude.

Glad to see we have so much in common, including voting for Obama.

and


The last 6 years have been best income years of my life.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
GD Right "The Chief",I am very GRATEFUL for my freedoms.

But I do not get gratitude or pleasure from dissing another,as you do.

As far as spoiled goes,my family is gone ,I have worked as a Carpenter for 36 years.
Do you know any "spoiled carpenters".

Again ,it is always about you.

You should learn to live with opposing opinions,but why would you,you do not have to make a living.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Dude, you just gotta score some disability.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
No thanks.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
Chief can give your pointers.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
"Chief could give you pointers"

Tvash,would you listen to any?

LTFOL.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
I listen to all good advice.

As for non-stop butthurt, OK, I'll admit I can be a deaf at times.

I prefer songs with more than one note.

It's probably a lack of empathy ;)
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 7, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
This guy must have got to the Chief in the Navy.


http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/colorado_elects_republican_exorcist_who_believes_gay_people_want_your_soul
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 what happened there?

repubs?

look at that crybaby face, just about in tears....


hahahahaha!!!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
Ah, the thinly veiled internet weapons threat. Who hasn't enjoyed a chuckle or two when this one gets trotted out?

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:48pm PT

I have been cleaning and sighting in my weapons tonight, though.

 he's cleaning and sighting something....


You seem a little on edge and more frustrated than usual.

 nothing like projecting once tensions onto others to make it a little more clear, to Freud...


Please do share how cleaning, sighting in weapons and preparing for local shooting match in the morning, has anything to do with "thinly veiled threatening" of anyone with such?

 and its all for a world championship title!!!

Maybe even... a belt!

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
I saw four vehicles in the turning lane today and
all four were using their turn signals.


The GOP are already fixing
things that Obama couldn't.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
Projectors gotta project.

Or something like that.

If the GOP can get the Ballardites to use their turn signals here, they've got my vote.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 7, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
One has to care to hate, I believe.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 8, 2014 - 02:59am PT
two lessons for libs:

1. it's not your fault; it's what you've been taught

2. it's never too late to change and help make the whole world a better place

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/04/im-a-diehard-liberal-it-ruined-my-parenting/

crankster

Trad climber
Nov 8, 2014 - 07:32am PT

Nov 7, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
I saw four vehicles in the turning lane today and
all four were using their turn signals.


The GOP are already fixing
things that Obama couldn't.

Funniest post of the week award.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 8, 2014 - 08:28am PT
You just don't get it Chief...http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/01/the-23-best-countries-for-work-life-balance-we-are-number-23/250830/?utm_source=FB1103_05


You think the world revolves around you and your little group of warmongers.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 8, 2014 - 09:14am PT
The chief - I don’t care if you are mother teresa…

If it were not for your politic, those vets your are trying to raise money for might still have their legs, because there would not have been a conflict that needed their REAL COURAGE in order for you to brag about doing this sh#t here in the safety of the US.

A list of truly amazing things with which to hold The Chief up on the pedestal he believes himself to be on

Oh yeah... graduated way early. In he tenth grade actually. Dec of 1973. Tested out with a 596 out of 625 possible.

Then went off and learned how to terminate stoooopid azzes around the world
here in the Best Country in the World.


This one deserves its own statement of truth added.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I retired and went on to got my BS in CG and then got my NCAC I & II Certs.
Been working with ARK/AGB's, addicts and Vets on and off for over 12 years now.
I have been cleaning and sighting in my weapons tonight, though.
It is a fund raiser for local disabled vets from the latest conflicts.


In mother teresa’s final hours, when requested that her chambermaids list all of the great things that the mother had done with her life, and all of the fine things she did, and count all the money she was responsible for raising and plotting little flags on a world map on the wall to show everywhere in the world she had traveled to… so that she would have the list fresh in her memory for when she got to heaven…


Much like the last couple of your whining “I’m really doing good”, “I count for more than you”, “I’ve been everywhere” self righteous yammering….

You are having this conversation alone now chief…

Here you go Chief… was this the one that set you off?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

yup.... They are batshit crazy

Reagan = Original Teabagger

or was it this one…

[Click to View YouTube Video]

 what happened there?

repubs?

look at that crybaby face, just about in tears....


hahahahaha!!!



Or, do you even understand what it means to go out, volunteer your time and effort and do such things to help fellow human beings in need of some monetary and medical assistance. Human beings that sacrificed tons so that spoiled whiney Jingy's can have the freedom to complain about totally dumazz meaningless shet which he does not agree with nor have absolutely any control over.

 All that just so you could point out the pointlessness of one human beings life… mine?

You spend your time in the most effective ways… Hence the name.

Not to mention, chief… that sounded almost socialist in nature… you sure you got rid of all that whiny liberal from your black heart?

Added after, from below...

To save others from having to look at this thread again on the front page:
Dude loves to toot his own horn... don't he?
we raised over $68,000 for local DV's and their families this morning.

 Look at all the good I do, compared to the loser Jingy... He's a shame...

Am I wrong?

Another from below Edit:
This one makes me laugh... If you read it in the voice of a snotty 12 year old it takes on a different feel..
Oh yeah... graduated way early. In he tenth grade actually. Dec of 1973.

 during a period of time when most of the nation was getting an idea of what coke was, I was pushed through with flying colors... all of it earned of course...

some of this kind of fits here too...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 8, 2014 - 10:04am PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 8, 2014 - 10:14am PT
And haters gonna hate ...

Apparently.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2014 - 11:03am PT
"Didn't take long for this stupid thread to become just as sh!tty and hostile as the original...

Makes communication impossible..."


You didn't really think it would be any different, did you?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
The Chief, you are truly nuts.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 8, 2014 - 12:57pm PT
Nuts is being kind.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Nov 8, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
I received thirteen donuts for the price
of a dozen at the Bakery today.


Many thanks to the GOP for correcting another
failed policy of the Obama administration.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 9, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
Republican war on the environment begins...now..
Incoming Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) says a top priority of his is “to try to do whatever I can to get the [Environmental Protection Agency] reined in.”

In an interview with the Lexington Herald-Leader, McConnell said it wouldn’t be easy to block the carbon pollution regulations for existing power plants, though doing just that is a promise he made to Kentucky on the campaign trail this year.


"It will be hard because the only good tool to do that ... is through the spending process, and if [President Obama] feels strongly enough about it, he can veto the bill," McConnell told the Herald-Leader.
"But I view it as a complete outrage that he could not get cap-and-trade through the Congress when he owned the place — owned the place — and decided to do it anyway," he said.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 9, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 10, 2014 - 07:45am PT
"Apparently"


See that a lot lately....lol.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 10, 2014 - 08:16am PT
He just churns out one article after another with the same unverifiable sensationalist stuff, and people keep buying it.

the articles that drive me crazy are the "MOTLEY FOOL"!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 10, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Maybe the repubs could use a talking to...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Maybe if they had better leaders... who were not bent on taking away voting from people..
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Sorry... republicans are proud of the wrong reasons.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 10, 2014 - 11:24am PT
'scuse me if this has already had a round:

Sen. Sanders hit on the one thing that Republicans are trying to cover up. The American people did not give the GOP a mandate to do more to benefit the wealthy and corporations.

Republicans are trying to sell their victory as the will of the people, but what the election results represent is victory for the Koch brothers and other billionaires. The big money billionaires have learned that they can fool people in red states by bashing the president and by conditioning them to hate, while telling them nothing about their actual plans for governing.

The message that the American people need to hear is that Boehner and McConnell aren’t working for them. The Republican controlled Congress is not going to act in their best interests. The new Congress will only be concerned with the wants and needs of their wealthy donors.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 10, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
Why is it that the republicans are not up in arms about this new round of deployments...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I cannot say that I agree with the deployment...

When will we learn from our mistakes and stop repeating history?
 code pink statement on the deployment


 thought on the article "of interest" noted above...

The $9 billion witness. Securities lawyer Alayne Fleischmann, the central witness in one of the larger cases of white-collar crime in U.S. history, blew the whistle on secrets that J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. spent $9 billion to keep from the public. But the most interesting part of her story, writes Matt Taibbi for Rolling Stone, is the pains that Chase and the U.S. Justice Department took to silence her. “This past year she watched as Holder’s Justice Department struck a series of historic settlement deals with Chase, Citigroup and Bank of America.

 The problem is the complicity between the banks and the justice department... At least I think that is why this article is being put in our faces.. But... this would be a problem of who it is that we are putting in the positions of authority within the government to monitor the activities of the banks...
Industry leaders do not always have the greater good in mind... and in america, they hardly every have the american public in mind as industry leaders, let alone when the decisions about the environment are being made...
I strongly suggest spending some time on the inside before you paint "The Benevolent Industry Leader Goes To Washington" picture for me. Those are the ones who move on to lobbying once they've outgrown their real money potential, or they have burned the wrong ultra-rich bridge... or its just how the track works for these people.

The root bargain in these deals was cash for secrecy. The banks paid big fines, without trials or even judges—only secret negotiations that typically ended with the public shown nothing but vague, quasi-official papers called ‘statements of facts,’ which were conveniently devoid of anything like actual facts.”

 or was the point of the story supposed to be pointing out that even after all the investigations, and court proceedings, none of the notes are going to be supplied to the public on what the banks did to ruin the economy, all while the republican condoned the activities... pushing the US public to get out and spend...


Man and Uber man.

 not sure what the connection is there...

Where to look for insight.

 again... management techniques for group/partner brainstorming...

Connection?

Far as I'm concerned, the answer to the question "What do you think about the articles is they are a pointless waste of time and have no relevance to anything being mentioned here...

Never read anything Skritch links... IT'S A BUMBLING WASTE OF YOUR TIME!

By any chance.... EDIT

"Any thoughts on the content of the story?"

 Do you have any thoughts on the story that might draw a reader back ointo this discussion...
wait....

this isn't a discussion...

this is attackfest.

Cheers

You are back to being pointless to me again.. good day
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 10, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
More concerned with "winning" than with governing.

The bills tied up on Harry Reid's desk suggest this is a bipartisan phenomenon, but my real concern is how a "concern for winning" has permeated the prosecution of criminal cases.

In the U.S. justicie system, the prosecution is supposed to be on the side of justice. As I continue to read about hiding or otherwise suppressing potentially exculpatory evidence and other prosecutorial misconduct, I'm forced to conclude that the prosecutors have yielded to the temptation to "win" by obtaining a conviction, rather that to "win" by obtaining justice.

A lot of the white collar prosecutions with which I am familiar are little more than extortion, as the government threatens financial ruin for a defendant because the cost of a successful defense exceeds the defendant's available resources. This goes for a lot of prosecutions and threatened prosecutions following the drop in housing prices.

I realize many on the left have concluded that the financial problems of the past 7 years are entirely Wall Street's fault, so they're angry that all the bankers aren't in jail. Fortunately, despite the prosecutorial misconduct, in the United States, you still need a trial before a sentence (well except for forfeiture cases, but that's a whole other discussion). In fact, usually, you even need to produce evidence against the accused.

Those defendants who've been brave enough to go to trial have almost always won. I know this infuriates the left, but it has been amazingly difficult to convince a judge or jury that intentionally making bad loans is a scheme for the financial industry (as opposed to certain salespeople) to make money.

That fact has obviously been hard for Tiabbi to process. Sad to say, that no longer surprises me. I used to read his articles expecting useful information. Bitter experience taught me to expect fantasy now.

John
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 10, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
I read a little something and thought I'd heard something about it before today.... where was that...?

Sketch

Trad climber
Hey Y'all

Nov 10, 2014 - 05:18am PT
Interesting story on how the DOJ has been prosecuting our 1%ers.

Back in 2008, I heard a lot of accusations about Obama being bought and paid for by Wall Street... that when it came to going after the bankers and the major investment groups, he would be no different than the most corrupt Republicans. I treated these claims as little more than right-wing propaganda.

Apparently, it doesn't matter who is in The White House. The 1%ers are going to do whatever they want... and get away with it.

Enjoy.

Meet the woman JPMorgan Chase paid one of the largest fines in American history to keep from talking

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-9-billion-witness-20141106


 What was it....? I know I had heard that before... couldn't remem...

got it!



That's right.... I wrote a little something about this a couple days ago...

Who's driving here?

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there

Nov 7, 2014 - 08:32am PT


[Click to View YouTube Video]

If you were worth your weight... you'ld be pointing at something other than me...

(Here, in the first minute you hear about a major corporation, paying a settlement for selling mortgages that were toxic to the world economy... (i.e. unregulated anything they wanted to call it, top shelf bull sh#t in a fancy bag)...

(All the while, republicans were telling us it was the public's fault, they the public were responsible for signing the deals that were being presented to them by the banks..... this is why have have nothing but contempt for the modern republican tongue-washer of corporate CEO testicles.)

This is the world republicans are making for us.

They want no regulation... of anything!!!

They are as toxic as the water supplies they govern.


For the republicans
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 Unfortunately for me... I am one of the people that republicans want to let die. I am one of the people that they would like to forget ever happened. They would rather not even know that I exist at all.
They are Republicans


 That's right... I have to learn my place at the table. I have to know my caste. I can be no better than my DNA and my DNA is simple. Everyone else does seem to be at the very minimum one evolutionary step better than I.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 11, 2014 - 04:30am PT
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/09/baffled-canadian-writes-to-u-s-voters-after-midterm-you-dont-know-how-good-you-have-it-with-obama/
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 11, 2014 - 05:24am PT
Yawn....

More sheep arguing "libs" vs "repuglicans" all the while the oligarchs behind the blue and red puppets murder en masse, rape the earth, and steal everything you will ever have.

Maybe one day enough people will wake up. I have a dream...
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:53am PT
Fox News goes 24/7.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:54am PT
It seems the GOP have been in the dominant force defining our President's public persona. Obama and the rest of the Dems have let them.

Possibly the first and only accurate statement you've ever made here.

TE
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:56am PT
On Veterans Day, I remember Thomas Young. He is, to me, the period at the end of the final sentence on the failure started by republican war hungry voters and their representatives.

No matter how good any republican wants to think of themselves, no matter how patriotic they say they are... they are responsible for everything after 09-11-01 based on the response that was whipped into being by these people.

Today, republicans get none of my trust. None of my thoughts. None of my good nature. They are the worst of humanity.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Thomas Young
November 30, 1979 - November 10, 2014


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomas_Young

[Click to View YouTube Video]


During this mornings episode of DN, I was listening to them read the 23 names of the Senators who voted not to go to war...

I wanted to hear the names of the shameful party that sent us into the mess we still cannot extract ourselves from and will continue to have to tax ourselves for for many years to come.

Because republicans are that shameful I cannot vote for them and I cannot support them.

Like islam... republicans are the motherload of bad ideas!


In a Republican world... thomas would have been on his own and left to die right here in america.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2014 - 07:02am PT
The light will be on them now, jing. They won't be able to hide in the darkness.

Example: James Inhofe as the head of the committee that oversees environmental policy. This crazy will do more to raise $$ for Dem's and elect Hillary than anyone.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 11, 2014 - 07:14am PT
from the guy who wrote barrycare:

http://dailysignal.com/2014/11/09/caught-camera-obamacare-architect-admits-deceiving-americans-pass-law/


from the horse's mouth: passing barrycare required "the stupidity of the american people"

to paraphrase gandhi: i'd rather libs think i'm "wrong" than actually be stupid


how's it feel, libs, to know barry just isn't that into you?


Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 07:37am PT
^^^ +1 ^^^

...as all republicans are...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 11, 2014 - 07:43am PT
an evasive, butthurt, passive agressive, trolling, coward. that's just how they roll in the sixth grade
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Nov 11, 2014 - 08:01am PT
The bills tied up on Harry Reid's desk suggest this is a bipartisan phenomenon,

The bills that got tied up on Reid's desk came from a partisan congress, most of which had attachments defunding the ACA in part or whole.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 11, 2014 - 08:17am PT
Johnboy wrote:
The bills that got tied up on Reid's desk came from a partisan congress

All politics is partisan. What JEleazarian was refering to was they, meaning both parties, are more concerned with winning than governing.
Politics is a sewer precisely because winning is the goal and decent people tend to shy from that arena.
(Don't make today's politicians your heroes)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 11, 2014 - 08:38am PT
Ted Cruz? I don't know his position. Don't care enough to find out.

It's easy to figure out Ted Cruz's position on anything. If Obama said, "Jesus is the Son of God," Ted Cruz would become a Unitarian on the spot.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 08:40am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Republican browbeat America into a war that was not needed...

Republicans are the American failure we live with every day
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 11, 2014 - 08:47am PT
It's not like Republicans are hiding their anti-American agenda.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 11, 2014 - 09:50am PT
So...

What is your point?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 11, 2014 - 10:49am PT
So...

What is your point?

Obviously the point is that Republicans are wrong about everything.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
"Obviously the point is that Republicans are wrong about everything."

 it's republican... it has no point...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Sketch point is that Reaganomics and the "thousand points of light" haven't worked. Wow...who would have thought!!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
The republicans, the party of no will get nothing done in two years and then this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/can-republicans-hold-on-to-senate-majority-in-2016-theres-reason-for-doubt/2014/11/09/e3c18a70-6825-11e4-b053-65cea7903f2e_story.html


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
LMAO...!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
Sketch point is that Reaganomics and the "thousand points of light" haven't worked. Wow...who would have thought!!

Bob, it really doesn't. If you look at the chart, it merely shows the relative share of income of various percentiles.
It doesn't show the absolute level of income. For example, during a period of unambiguous general prosperity during
the 1990's the share of the top 1% was rising almost monotonically.
If anything, the share of the top 1% appears to be a lagging
indicator. After the economy contracts, the share of the 1% rises.

I am unaware of any study showing even a statistically significant
correlation between income dispersion and overall economic activity in the
U.S., much less demonstrating a provable reason for the alleged correlation.

John
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
I am unaware of any study showing even a statistically significant
correlation between income dispersion and overall economic activity in the
U.S., much less demonstrating a provable reason for the alleged correlation.

me neither

but hopefully Sketch will tell us the correlation along with the reason he posted the chart.....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
Norton,

As much as I completely agree with your statement...

I go a step further to check to see if there was ever a point made by this poster...

check the history...

is there a specific date and time of a post that actually had a point...?

Then I ask the same question of my self and my posts...


I seem to try really hard to get a point across...

(P.S. Edit: Maybe the point is to waste time... which is what I feel whenever I read anything by the poster.... just sayin'
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
John...just a thought...http://www.epi.org/blog/union-decline-rising-inequality-charts/
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
^^^ Love the video... ^^^

[Click to View YouTube Video]

 That's the republican party for ya... bringing us back to the 1920's again!!!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
I posted the quote and graph as an attempt to stir up conversation about income/wealth inequity in this country. It's a bit mind-boggling that the top 0.1% have more that the "bottom" 90%. This is a rare dynamic. We haven't seen it since the 1930s.

 These thoughts of yours never seem to merit mention on any of the "quotes nor charts" you post... It's a shame you could not combine the two posts, with a dramatic change in timing...

If the quote/chart/graphic was accompanied with the thought... you might look less like a troll... more like a real person worth acknowledging.

But that's just my limited view of the world around me
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 11, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Bob and Jingy,

Your points deal solely with inequality. I'm focused on prosperity, as an absolute, rather than relative, phenomenon. We simply represent different values. I want people to be as prosperous as possible. If the poorest gain 5% and the richest gain 500% in ten years, I view that as better than if the poorest lose nothing and the richest lose 99%. I don't care that the latter outcome decreased inequality, because it also decreased prosperity.

My own observation of the private sector is that unionization does not flourish in highly innovative industries. The only industries that tend to have high union participation are those that are relatively mature. Henry Ford increased wages and benefits dramatically long before the UAW came around to Ford Motors, because Ford needed to draw lots of people to his new way of marketing and manufacturing automobiles. Only after the industry's basic way of operating became largely standardized did unionization become possible.

That said, and as I make a point of teaching my economics classes, unionization has the potential to create mutual benefit to workers, employers and consumers, because it can decrease transactions costs so much that any other cost's increase dwarfs in comparison. In fact, it often has done so. Unfortunately, the majority of American unions still seem to believe in a zero-sum game, until their ossified policies make their employers uncompetitive, and then it's too late.

Sad to say, unions - and heavily unionized industries - tend to become economically reactionary. They tend to view change as a threat rather than an opportunity. The reaction of both the UAW and the "Big Three" automakers in the 1970's forms a perfect example. Instead of innovating to make better cars to compete against the imports, they complained that foreign competition was "unfair." The American consumers rejected that argument with their wallets.

Fortunately, the unit labor cost of automobile manufacturing for the US market is still lower in the US than just about anywhere else, so many foreign manufacturers built factories stateside. Some even found a way for peaceful - and mutually beneficial - coexistence with employee unions. The key, though, was understanding that a capitalist economy does not produce a zero-sum product.

The charts dealing with relative shares of income assume a zero-sum economy unless they deal with comparison of levels of income, not merely shares.

John
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 11, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
You need to keep up, TGT. The Putinator f*#ked up and is no longer the guest of honor.

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-putin-china-coat-xi-wife-censored-20141111-story.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
Yeah, but that stunt will keep him away from the wives club too.

Barry was considered both irrelevant AND harmless.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 11, 2014 - 04:55pm PT

I doubt Huntsman (or any other candidate) offered anything to "prevent this problem". If you know of a candidate who did, please post what they proposed.

Well, you're wrong. There was a candidate concerned about that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Alexander
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
Sad to say, unions - and heavily unionized industries - tend to become economically reactionary.

 I'd say that the idea of Unions was in reaction to Industry acting in a way that disproportionately harmed or unsafely worked human beings and for less and less pay all the time...

If a union was good enough to start an entire country like the US.... I think its good enough for me. This fact seems like a fundamental one to me, but repubs just want everyone to forget the beginning of the country was called...

I'm not sure why the right are so against even the idea of people getting together to better their situation with their employers.... Are repubs just anti-human? Or are all their questions geared to answer in the affirmative and always for the corporation... never for the human being.

At the same time I say "People gotta be able to get together to better their own situations" as it relates to the workplaces... I also see that with my statement, the claim can be made that I am alright with the ultra rich getting together to better their own situations...


Oh, but wait...

That's the system we currently get to look at and say things about without ever effecting even slightly.

Repubs seem to see thing the opposite to me.. or at the least.. unquestioningly skewed against the human elements that I feel I have to point it out.

It's all just pointless drivel anyway. Whether I win hearts and minds will make no difference in the end. These words will go nowhere from here and only disappear one day once the bills stop getting paid.

Let's face it...

When rich men want to get together to better their situations... repubs are okay with it...and fully endurance it and will even support it with all available local law enforcement...
When poor men want to get together to better their situations...
repubs are thoroughly against it...

Nobody could ever square that circle for me, therefore I never vote repuge.


This doesn't even look into the closet with the racism I see in the repuge party neither...

Wait a sacond Edit:
Sad to say, unions - and heavily unionized industries - tend to become economically reactionary.

 ok, by itself, it sounds like you might be making a point... but then

They tend to view change as a threat rather than an opportunity.

 so, the employer wants to pay less this month/year than last... Union should react right? Or, is your suggestion to not ask questions... But then

The reaction of both the UAW and the "Big Three" automakers in the 1970's forms a perfect example. Instead of innovating to make better cars to compete against the imports, they complained that foreign competition was "unfair." The American consumers rejected that argument with their wallets.

 there you go... the failures of the automakers, mandatory greed in american business (it's written into the charters of nearly every corporation, I think), and the economic downturn from the 70's had nothing to do with the failure of the big 3... none of these things spelled the the doom of the big three... no, it was all the unions fault.

You believe what you want.
I'm on the side of the people and not on the side of the big 3.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 11, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Spend some time in temp labor positions and you'll understand why there are unions.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2014 - 05:21pm PT

Barry was considered both irrelevant AND harmless.

Calling the president "Barry" = fringe wingNUT giveaway.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
Barry Sorreto.

crankster

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
As if we needed further evidence of your wingnutery.
Or what is the 1,001 Breitbart links?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 11, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
Barry was considered both irrelevant AND harmless.

only considered by dumb asses, like you, TeaGeaTee

fact is, Osama Bin Laden and all the top Al Qaeda chiefs are dead now, thanks to Pres Obama

now run back to the Pirate's Cove and find a link to copy and paste, miserable coward
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
and furthermore , George W Bush could have prevented the 9/11 attacks but had his head up his ass and ignored the warnings and was then re-elected...go figure...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
John..sadly your post bash unions and says nothing about the side of the coin.



If you think the system worked where one percent control the wealth, OK with you, not with me.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
There are really two Democratic parties.

One is the old corrupt party of thieves and crooks. Its politicians, black and white, are the products of political machines. They believe in absolutely nothing. They can go from being Dixiecrats to crying racism, from running on family values to pushing gay marriage and the War on Women.

They will say absolutely anything to get elected.

Cunning, but not bright, they are able campaigners. Reformers underestimate them at their own peril because they are determined to win at all costs.

The other Democratic Party is progressive. Its members are radical leftists working within the system. They are natural technocrats and their agendas are full of big projects. They function as community organizers, radicalizing and transforming neighborhoods, cities, states and even the country.

They want to win, but it’s a subset of their bigger agenda. Their goal is to transform the country. If they can do that by winning elections, they’ll win them. But if they can’t, they’ll still follow their agenda.

Sometimes the two Democratic parties blend together really well. Bill Clinton combined the good ol' boy corruption and radical leftist politics of both parties into one package. The secret to his success was that he understood that most Democrats, voters or politicians, didn’t care about his politics, they wanted more practical things. He made sure that his leftist radicalism played second fiddle to their corruption.

Bill Clinton convinced old Dems that he was their man first. Obama stopped pretending to be anything but a hard core progressive.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-democratic-partys-civil-war-is-here.html
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
^^^
Direct to you from the wingnutosphere, aka Daniel Greenfield.

Next up...the ebola crisis, let's bring it back!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
I'm focused on prosperity, as an absolute, rather than relative, phenomenon.

 Where is this the norm? And is it thriving for all that you are after? Or is this prosperity just fr you and your kind?

Asking a republican for specifics... will I get anything?

Doubt looms heavy
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 11, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
ah yes, UNIONS

my how UNIONS really piss off people who vote Republican, especially our own JohnE, who has on numerous occasions expressed his personal opinion about UNIONS

and not only "government" unions but also all those horrible private sector unions

but in particular what pisses JohnE off is the fact that people who work for the government, does not matter if city, county, state, or federal workers.....are members of UNIONS, and according to people like JohnE UNIONS are a BAD THING, because....um,,,,,oh yes.....UNIONS provide those people with the certainty that they will healthcare, a retirement income, protection from being fired without due process, and will be able to budget their personal finances by knowing how much they will be paid this year and next year, etc.

Presumably all Americans want their government to run efficiently and that the day to day duties be carried out by people who are trained, capable, and are agreeable to a relatively lower pay in a public service career than their successful neighbors in the private sector, rich fukers like me.

So what exactly IS wrong with the above that angers JohnE so much about UNIONS?

Is it the very idea, the nerve, the arrogance, that people who choose a career in public service should NOT have the certainty to plan their personal lives by having healthcare, pension, job protection through due process instead of the private sector's "I can fire you and I don't even have to have a reason"?

Is it because JohnE had to wait in line too long when he was 16 at the DMV and is still mad
at "government" 40 years later, and hence government or UNION employees?



So let us invite JohnE to use his powerful intellect and state his "anti union" position?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Rubes!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 11, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Conservatives dislike unions because conservative politicians and Fox news tell them to do so...They dislike unions because the 1% thinks they are entitled to 3rd world - slave labor wages and they don't give a sh#t about the rest of America...isn't that why they hide money off shore...go Republicans....woo hoo...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 11, 2014 - 10:40pm PT

So let us invite JohnE to use his powerful intellect and state his "anti union" position?

Oh come on, Norton! In the case of public employees, the argument against unionization doesn't require a powerful intellect (which I daily prove - to myself at least - I have yet to acquire). It simply requires a sense of civic duty and some observation.

Seriously, though, against whom do we need a union of public employees to protect? The rapacious public? The very notion, and certainly the practice, presents an inherent conflict of interest, as politicians bought and paid for by the public employee unions negotiate, allegedly on behalf of the public, terms and conditions of employment of public employees.

Not surprisingly, this process has left us with employment contracts whose terms the public cannot afford. As the cost of pensions continues to rise, and the demographics continue to increase the payee/payor ratio, many governments already find their budgets overwhelmed with payments to retirees too great to allow funding of current services.

In addition, they saddle the public with employment contracts that fail to reward better performance adequately, make it exceedingly expensive to fire incompetent employees, and create an incentive to perform with a uniform mediocrity.

Finally, public employee unions tend to have the effect of exacting monopoly rents for the employees, because governments won't tolerate competition. One need look no farther than the "outsourcing" controversies, or laws such as those that prohibited private competition with the post office, to see how that works.

The monopoly aspect generally does not hold true for the private sector, however. If a private sector union forces an uncompetitive contract on an employer, that employer will fold, and all those union jobs will disappear -- unless, of course, the unions' captive politicians prevent competition from other employers with differing employment terms. As long as the market has competition, inefficient and exploitive union contracts face a built-in counter force.

John
Degaine

climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 12:25am PT
JEleazarian wrote:
Sad to say, unions - and heavily unionized industries - tend to become economically reactionary. They tend to view change as a threat rather than an opportunity. The reaction of both the UAW and the "Big Three" automakers in the 1970's forms a perfect example. Instead of innovating to make better cars to compete against the imports, they complained that foreign competition was "unfair." The American consumers rejected that argument with their wallets.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend that you read "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam.

While it takes an entire industry to tango, it's just too easy to blame the downfall of the American auto industry on the unions. I'll sum up as quick as I can: a) the big three transformed into investment banks, veering away at the top from the actual business of car manufacturers, caring more about cutting costs than in investing in new equipment, b) the execs at the big three calling the shots were extremely arrogant, never thinking the Japanese had it in them to beat the US at making cars, and c) the big three refused to change their product with the changing economy and demand - oil crises, decreasing purchasing power, etc. - and continued with a 1950s post-war strategy in a 1970s/1980s economy.

The big decisions involved in a, b, and c, are made at the top, not at the union member assembly line level. That written, when the sh#t did hit the fan, and the big three really did need to cut costs to survive and reorganized, being heavily unionized made changing directions like steering an oil tanker and not a sports car.

Cheers.

P.S. I also highly recommend any one of Halberstam's many excellent books. For any baseball history enthusiasts, "Summer of '49" is a fantastic read.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 05:06am PT
Unions are not inherently good or inherently bad. They are a natural reaction to the monopolistic practices of employers. The Big 3 stumbled because they were clumsy and lazy behemoths. The unions were complicit but not the root cause. Unions, like any other large organization, are capable of being abusive, bureaucratic and irrationally self-interested. They also wouldn't exist if American capitalists valued employees as people instead of treating them as serfs. Look at large, nonunionized work forces in America for great examples. Take fast food employees, for instance. Always one unpaid sick day away from unemployment, split shifts, being sent home if business is slow, unpaid overtime, forged timecards to show fewer hours and wages withheld by managers illegally. The "free market" has judged millions of Americans and found them unworthy of respectful employment conditions, unable to hire legal representation and if they actually sack up and try to unionize they are called "communists" for daring to not quietly endure their servitude.

tl;dr- Bluntly, you can't hate the idea of unions without being a seriously classist as#@&%e.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 12, 2014 - 05:18am PT
I fell like my story has partly been told with that last post....HFCS

If employers were not American Business.... Maybe America would be the great nation that people have always been telling me, but I could not see around me.

Look at the repubs... still calling the jobs loss on the american worker "the fault of the american worker" and not the fault of the people running the show within the behemoths, the CEO's, the managers... the executive managers...

Greedy business ruined the American Auto Industry.

It's fundamental, at least to me.

The comedians I know of don't have to make fun of America... It's pitiful and full of sh#t enough on it's own just as much as any other country out there... only, it never stops to look at what it is doing... and that is what sucks about being one of them.


To the repub, this is completely acceptable as "presidential".

[Click to View YouTube Video]

 Remember - He knew there was nothing there... at this time we know he knew there were no WMD.... but he jokes... while the soldiers died.... he joked about the only reason for being there....

Fucocking Shame!

This is the reason our country sucks... The people may never see how they are responsible for the countries current location.

What I mean is.. America's apparent arrogance is the biggest problem I see all around me.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 06:55am PT
The righties stay focused on the trivial, devious crap fed to them by Fox, Breitbart and the talk yakkers. It's all their feeble minds can absorb.

Meanwhile, in the real world the president had a very productive trip to China...

China and the United States made common cause on Wednesday against the threat of climate change, staking out an ambitious joint plan to curb carbon emissions as a way to spur nations around the world to make their own cuts in greenhouse gases.

Administration officials said the agreement, which was worked out quietly between the United States and China over nine months and included a letter from Mr. Obama to Mr. Xi proposing a joint approach, could galvanize efforts to negotiate a new global climate agreement by 2015.

It was the signature achievement of an unexpectedly productive two days of meetings between the leaders. Mr. Obama and Mr. Xi also agreed to a military accord designed to avert clashes between Chinese and American planes and warships in the tense waters off the Chinese coast, as well as an understanding to cut tariffs for technology products.

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 12, 2014 - 06:57am PT
Instead trying to put it back on me, complete with petty insults, why not just defend your point?

the petty are easily insulted,
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2014 - 06:57am PT
Seriously, though, against whom do we need a union of public employees to protect? The rapacious public?

No, the politicians.

Stewart Alexander could not even secure a spot on a ticket that received a whopping 0.05% of the vote.

But since you brought him up, what did he propose?

The Google is your friend. Since he ran on the SPUSA ticket we can safely say he proposed what follows. The pertinent point is highlighted:

The following points represent the key ideas of agreement of the Socialist Party USA. We encourage you to read and discuss them, and if you agree consider joining the Socialist Party:

1) The Socialist Party is a democratic socialist organization. We see socialism as a new social and economic order in which workers and consumers control production and community residents control their neighborhoods, homes and school and the production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not the private profit of a few.

2) We see the working class as in a key and central position to fight back against the ruling class and its power. The working class is the major force worldwide that can lead the way to a socialist future – to a real radical democracy from below.

3) We stand in opposition to all forms of oppression including but not limited to racism, sexism and homophobia.

4) We are a “multi-tendency” organization. We orient ourselves around our principles and develop a common program, but our members have various underlying philosophies and views of the world. Therefore we reject vanguardism and democratic centralism.

5) We advocate for independent political action outside the Democratic and Republican parties.

6) Our tactics in the struggle for radical democratic change reflects our ultimate goal of a society founded on principles of egalitarian, non-exploitative and non-violent relations among all people and between all peoples.

This is just to point out that there was at least one candidate who addressed the issue of wealth and income inequality.

Now if only Barry Sanders would run, maybe it would get more attention.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 07:08am PT
HighDesertDJ wrote:
They also wouldn't exist if American capitalists valued employees as people instead of treating them as serfs.

You make some excellent points, but I did highlight the above because it doesn't address John's point about who public sector unions are protecting the public from.
I totally agree on your points about unions in general, but public sector unions are a conflict of interest and the source of much financial problems in most states.
In a fair world, public employees would pay into social security with supplements of 401 or IRA plans. I have read that the number one reason public employees leave their jobs is because of death (not counting retirement).
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 07:15am PT
^^^
Says the mindless zealot.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 12, 2014 - 07:35am PT
what's more ridiculous than a scientist who claims to know the future of climate change based on computer models that run data that nobody is allowed to see?

an analyst who claims to know the future of china's population change based on...what, exactly?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/nov/26/china-emissions-rise-green-policies


barry's idea of a "deal"?

we'll cripple our economy to cut emissions while you guys increase your emissions to strengthen your economy...and we'll do this right now but you just have to promise to stop in 16 years


what's even more arrogant?

barry claiming this is a "deal" after his chief health care 'architect' admitted they lied about barrycare...of course, he knows the repubs won't fall for this so he must only think libs are "stupid"...will you prove him true?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:03am PT
Your "People" are the ones that allowed last TUESDAY to happen. They decided not to get off their lazy azzes and go vote

on this the chief is entirely correct

the Republicans were far, far more efficient in getting their base voters to turn out

and just as damaging to the Dem is the historical fact that the minority party almost always does better and gains seats in mid terms, just as the Dems did when they took over the Senate in 2006 during the last two years of President Bush and his Republican congress

turn out this time was truly pathetic, in fact the worst in literally decades
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:27am PT
see what kind of sh#t storm you stir up when you put a mirror in front of a republican...

they go batshit crazy with the historical references...
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:29am PT
Sorry, this is a day late. I haven't read anything else that so succinctly lays out exactly how I feel about the Iraq disaster. The author passed away yesterday. Godspeed Mr. Young.

Also, I challenge anyone posting in this thread to refute what follows.

From:
http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/the_last_letter_20130318

The Last Letter

A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran

To: George W. Bush and Dick Cheney
From: Tomas Young

I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq War veterans. I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines who died in Iraq. I write this letter on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of veterans who have been wounded and on behalf of those whose wounds, physical and psychological, have destroyed their lives. I am one of those gravely wounded. I was paralyzed in an insurgent ambush in 2004 in Sadr City. My life is coming to an end. I am living under hospice care.

I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives who have lost spouses, on behalf of children who have lost a parent, on behalf of the fathers and mothers who have lost sons and daughters and on behalf of those who care for the many thousands of my fellow veterans who have brain injuries. I write this letter on behalf of those veterans whose trauma and self-revulsion for what they have witnessed, endured and done in Iraq have led to suicide and on behalf of the active-duty soldiers and Marines who commit, on average, a suicide a day. I write this letter on behalf of the some 1 million Iraqi dead and on behalf of the countless Iraqi wounded. I write this letter on behalf of us all—the human detritus your war has left behind, those who will spend their lives in unending pain and grief.

You may evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole.

I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. I write not because I think you grasp the terrible human and moral consequences of your lies, manipulation and thirst for wealth and power. I write this letter because, before my own death, I want to make it clear that I, and hundreds of thousands of my fellow veterans, along with millions of my fellow citizens, along with hundreds of millions more in Iraq and the Middle East, know fully who you are and what you have done. You may evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole.

Your positions of authority, your millions of dollars of personal wealth, your public relations consultants, your privilege and your power cannot mask the hollowness of your character. You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.

I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. Instead, this war has cost the United States over $3 trillion. I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. And as a soldier in Iraq I was, I now know, abetting your idiocy and your crimes. The Iraq War is the largest strategic blunder in U.S. history. It obliterated the balance of power in the Middle East. It installed a corrupt and brutal pro-Iranian government in Baghdad, one cemented in power through the use of torture, death squads and terror. And it has left Iran as the dominant force in the region. On every level—moral, strategic, military and economic—Iraq was a failure. And it was you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, who started this war. It is you who should pay the consequences.



I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love. I would not have to lie in my bed, my body filled with painkillers, my life ebbing away, and deal with the fact that hundreds of thousands of human beings, including children, including myself, were sacrificed by you for little more than the greed of oil companies, for your alliance with the oil sheiks in Saudi Arabia, and your insane visions of empire.

I have, like many other disabled veterans, suffered from the inadequate and often inept care provided by the Veterans Administration. I have, like many other disabled veterans, come to realize that our mental and physical wounds are of no interest to you, perhaps of no interest to any politician. We were used. We were betrayed. And we have been abandoned. You, Mr. Bush, make much pretense of being a Christian. But isn’t lying a sin? Isn’t murder a sin? Aren’t theft and selfish ambition sins? I am not a Christian. But I believe in the Christian ideal. I believe that what you do to the least of your brothers you finally do to yourself, to your own soul.

My day of reckoning is upon me. Yours will come. I hope you will be put on trial. But mostly I hope, for your sakes, that you find the moral courage to face what you have done to me and to many, many others who deserved to live. I hope that before your time on earth ends, as mine is now ending, you will find the strength of character to stand before the American public and the world, and in particular the Iraqi people, and beg for forgiveness.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:31am PT
There is too much reality in that letter to the president than any republican would ever take credit for causing...

And it's even more hitting

[Click to View YouTube Video]

WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:34am PT
A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran

Yes bergbryce

If 150 million Americans would also come forward against these criminal leaders in the US of America then we would surely be on our way to a better world .......
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:40am PT
http://www.gallup.com/poll/179345/democratic-party-favorable-rating-falls-record-low.aspx
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:44am PT
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/11/why-wall-street-loves-hillary-112782.html
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Yes we are the "finger pointing" society.

We point the finger at everyone but ourselves,

We, ourselves, are the ultimate cause of all our problems.

We wanted to be born in the material world ......
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:51am PT
It matters. The Republicans circus begins soon. The consequences of a conservative Supreme Court will be front and center.

The general public will vote in greater numbers in '16. The Republican block (old, white) will be diluted.

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:52am PT
Sketch said

turn out this time was truly pathetic, in fact the worst in literally decades

Pathetic? Aren't you a Republican?

yes, I am in fact a Registered Republican

explain what that fact has to do with my observation that the turn out was pathetic, simply a fact

think hard, take your time
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 12, 2014 - 08:54am PT
Typical for such a spoiled weak society of whiners, DEMS that is.

Good thing you cleared that up....

No sense in thinking it was a weak society that voted in repugs and all the hate that comes with that.
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:02am PT
/\ Froth alert!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:02am PT
Evidence...

Of Non-Whining:

Nov 12, 2014 - 08:57am PT
Weak SOCIETY Jingy? You are such a loser. ALL you post is your consistent HATE. You and DrF are one in the same. YAK YAK YAK and WHINE WHINE WHINE but do NOTHING but sit on your LAZY azzes and WHINE. Typical.




This thread has taught me tons about all this "HOPE and CHANGE" crap you DEMS keep screaming about. You DEMS all HOPE that things might CHANGE. But are unwilling to go out and actually do something to initiate that.

OR, could it be you all finally realized them thieves in DC, DEM and REPUG are all one in the same and just aren't worth the effort. SO, you all stayed home and lit up a bowl or two HOPING someone else will initiate that real CHANGE.

Better yet, you all will just sit at home or on the job posting more fantasy Liberal rhetoric on the interdnet HOPING that may do something. Some day.


Nov 12, 2014 - 08:44am PT
Apparently they weren't too interested last Tuesday, Werner.


Just goes to show how LAZY, GULLIBLE and WEAK them DEMS truly are. Sit on their azzes "HOPING" someone else will do all the voting for them.


This thread is such a fking joke. You LIBS all post your hate towards Repugs over and over on the ST/interdnet. But did not go out and vote.

Typical for such a spoiled finger pointing weak society of entitlement seeking whiners, DEMS that is. Facts speak tons. Tons. You DEMS are truly a weak lot in reality. Whine Whine Whine but DO NOT do a damn thing about it.


Nov 8, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Every single one of you are sooooooooooooooo predictable. Beyond funeeeee now. Truly it is hysterical. Really.




All I do is point and laugh at the repugs... call them dumb when I think they are dumb (which is never off, or alwys on).... sorry, you misunderstand often, it seems


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2014 - 09:03am PT
Chief, who gives a flying fook what you've learned you lying windbag.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:04am PT
actually Rick

I think your anger at the Dems, in general, for not turning out is misplaced on this thread

my guess is just about everyone who votes for Democratic candidates and who reads and posts on this thread did indeed vote recently

so, while it IS accurate to blame the general Democratic voting base for the loss, it is not valid
to aim your anger at anyone on this thread

and as far as the "general Democratic voting base", it is also very well known that they turn out in large Republican crushing numbers in the every four years Presidential elections, in fact the popular vote has gone to Dems in 4 of the last 5 Pres elections, which bodes very well for them in 2016
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:18am PT
Evidence of a profound troll


Nov 12, 2014 - 09:04am PT
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YOU LOST DIRTBAG... YOU LOST GOOD! Now wipe your sorry azz and deal with it. WHINER!


Truly learned how all your rhetoric DIRTBAG is just good old Liberal BULLSHET whining that has absolutely NOTHING to back it up. Last Tuesday proved that.


You and your croanies here DIRTBAG are the epitome of weak sauce MEDIOCRITY in America. When shet hits the fan, ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun and blame it all on the Repugs!



NORTON!!! Anger? Nah. Just RFLMAO at how you liberal entitled whiners can't deal with the reality of the day.

Is it anything like dealing with an arrogant 9 year old?
Geometric

Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:26am PT
So the take home is that:

general Republican = Profound Troll?
rincon

Trad climber
Coarsegold
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:27am PT
I wonder how much the Supreme Court's gutting of the 1965 Voting Rights Act had to do with the low turn out? Voter ID laws disinfranchise the old, young, and low income voters who usually vote for democrats. GOP misinformation campaigns and voter intimidation are also possible reasons for low turn out. I doubt that anyone posting here failed to cast their vote. I like Bernie Sanders idea of making voting day a national holiday.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:39am PT
What possible reason do you have for going after me like that, Rick?

Why do you seemingly make every post personally insulting?

I know this is all just entertainment to you, but does that have to be part of it?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 12, 2014 - 10:00am PT
ok Rick, in general then, but you do make it personal when you mention people by name and include them in your general insults, it just seems like you post to be intentionally obnoxious or contentious, rarely agreeing with anyone and seemingly always in opposition

if your purpose by doing so is to provoke people to reply back to you often then in anger and returning the insults, then you are succeeding

are you entertained?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2014 - 10:03am PT
The Chief, you are certifiably nuts.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 12, 2014 - 10:38am PT
Sad to say, unions - and heavily unionized industries - tend to become economically reactionary. They tend to view change as a threat rather than an opportunity. The reaction of both the UAW and the "Big Three" automakers in the 1970's forms a perfect example. Instead of innovating to make better cars to compete against the imports, they complained that foreign competition was "unfair." The American consumers rejected that argument with their wallets.

Degaine, am I missing something, or did you and I actually agree that both the automakers and the unions have responsibility for the loss of market share by the "Big Three?" You started with the above quote from one of my previous posts, but the tone of your post implied - at least to me - that you thought I put the sole blame on the UAW. I don't think the quote above reads that way.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 12, 2014 - 10:54am PT
JE...decline of unions, decline of wages and record profits for corporations.

Strange.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 12, 2014 - 11:02am PT
And that there is why the LIBS got their azzes handed to em a week ago. And will only get more handed to em on Nov 4th, 2016.

are you a betting man, Rick?

I am, and as you are so certain of your 2015 political analysis...

how about you and me have a private little $5000 bet on which party wins the Presidency then?



edit: oh, and Sketch? when you have something meaningful to add a discussion then do so

case in point: when have I ever personally insulted the chief? name it, or STFU, "hypocrite"
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 12, 2014 - 11:11am PT
hmmm...i guess the nobel committee will revoke his peace prize, huh?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11225063/Yasser-Arafat-found-Jesus-before-death-claim.html

limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Nov 12, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Who is your candidate? Who's the Great White Hope in '16?

Dr. Ben Carson
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 11:25am PT
Hey, we have a winner - a righty with a backbone willing to back a candidate!

If Ben gets the call from God (he will) he's in it.
Then he has to explain why he's against government programs when he benefited from:

1. raised by a single mother
2. raised in public housing
3. fed with food stamps.
4. supported with welfare wasnt-dependent-on-government
5. kept healthy with medicaid…
6. educated in public schools
7. got eyeglasses from state agency
8. benefited from affirmative action to enter college
9. used federal loans and Pell grants in undergrad school
10. benefited from affirmative action to enter medical school
11. med school paid for with grant from USPHS*
12. said: “The disintegration of the family unit and the welfare state are enslaving African-Americans and ruining their futures.”

Can't wait for the light to shine on Crazy Ben. Hell, according to this loon we might not even have an election...

Colmes: What do you mean though when you say there won’t be an election in 2016?
Carson: There may be so much anarchy going on.
Colmes: Anarchy? You think really risk having an anarchic America to the point where elections may be put on hold or some kind of emergency is declared with such anarchy that there wouldn’t be a presidential election in a couple of years.
Carson: I don’t want to find out, I really don’t want to find out. I don’t want to continue down this pathway that we are going down.

Ol' Ben won't get the nomination, of course. The $$ boys are lining up behind Christie or Bush. But he'll make the Republican debate circus more interesting.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 12, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Mankind just landed a robot on a comet.

crankster

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Republicans want to cut funding for medical research, you idiot!! It's like debating a stump.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
And why are you so butthurt, Butthurt?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 12, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
1st surface pics ever taken from a comet due any minute now.

The Rosetta orbiter aimed and dropped its lander from 22.5 km. No thrusters, no course or attitude adjustment on the descent. Onto a comet 2.5 mi wide that is a labyrinth of cliffs, canyons, and boulders.

Neither the downward thruster nor ice harpoons designed to hold the lander down in micro gravity worked, but it's down nonetheless.

Wow.

So freakin cool.

Nicely done, ESA.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 12, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
For you fear junkies, we need to learn about comets and asteroids so we can keep one from wiping us out entirely. A smallish comet the size of 67P (which never crosses earth's orbit) would only unleash the equivalent of a 43 gigaton nuclear weapon, so no big.

For the more curious and less anxious among us - comets are leftover material from the birth of our solar system. They played a key role in delivering water and organic compounds early in earth's history. Understanding them is one key to understanding how life first emerged on our planet.

Comets don't follow politics.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 12, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
Sample return missions are no longer necessary, silly. The technology was obsolete by the time the Rosetta mission was approved. Philae has all the instruments it needs to analyse the comet in situ. NASA (JPL) provided some of those instruments, in addition to telemetry support for the mission as a whole. Mahy future missions will be joint efforts between NASA and the ESA. Bigger bang for the overall buck, amortize the political climate, share expertise, no duplication of science objectives. Makes sense.

Welcome to the modern world (of the mid to late 90s).

We've been using similar instruments on Mars for years now.

More curiosity and less political filtering with regards to science is recommended.

Science doesn't care which nation or nations explore the unknown, as long as the unknown gets explored.

I expected Flybox to attempt to make this incredible achievement a negative in his emotionally damaged mind - this is not the most unpredictable organism in the cosmos we're talking about, but for the rest of us - it's a pretty amazing day.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 12, 2014 - 01:01pm PT

State Rep. John E. Barnes, a Cleveland Democrat, has filed a defamation lawsuit against the Ohio Democratic Party and its chairman, Chris Redfern, alleging white lawmakers get better treatment and he was punished for raising the issue of racism in the party.

Barnes said he faced discrimination and retaliation from his own party when he refused to join the Ohio Legislative Black Caucus in the Ohio House. Barnes said he feared it would harm his reputation to “associate with an organization whose moral compass he found to be troubling.” The lawsuit mentions members of the caucus who have been convicted of felony and misdemeanor offenses in the last three years. According to the complaint, Barnes ”saw little value to himself or to his district” in joining OLBC and “wanted to be treated as an individual rather than as a member of a presumed monolithic block of votes based upon his skin color.”

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/11/12/explosive-charges-black-democrat-alleges-racism-in-lawsuit-against-ohio-democratic-party/?singlepage=true
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 12, 2014 - 01:04pm PT

So JElezarian, let's KILL THE BULLET TRAIN!!!!111111 AND THE DELTA TUNNEL DREAM.

I'm in!

John
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 12, 2014 - 01:18pm PT



So JElezarian, let's KILL THE BULLET TRAIN!!!!111111 AND THE DELTA TUNNEL DREAM.


I'm in!

John

I am down with that, also.

Common sense.... something that is lacking from both parties, IMHO.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Nov 12, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
Future joint interplanetary missions (most notably to the Jupiter system) will likely involve the Russkies, too.

"Save the Europan Whales"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 12, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/minnesota-bill-maher-strikes-out_818947.html
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 12, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
This thread should be renamed,I mean what are the Republicans right about?
I mean that.

Was it that the ACA was going to kill the economy,Remember death panels, I mean ,where they right?
How's about ,the recession,we are soundly on our way out of it.


Deny here___.

Do you all really want fracking and pipelines dotting America?
Drill baby Drill,were they right?
Who is making that money and where do you think it goes.[hint:he has 3 chins]
Pennsylvania had 11 aeration ponds from well waste in 2004.
They now have 600.
Are they right?

I do not even want to mention Climate Change.
Record warmth for October and early November here,but that is weather.
Now Big oil will win.

You may call this a whine,rant,or whatever,because that is what you do.

But ,what have they done right?

Be Specific.



Edit ;They have done one thing well,Obstruct the growth of our republic.How about another gov. shut down,we have money to burn.
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
Somebody actually named a specific Republican candidate that they would support.

Sarah Palin she's awesome!!!

Vote for her !!!!

She has good eyes. She can see Russia from her house ......
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 12, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
Now it's Bruce Sringsteen singing "Fortunate Son". There's no limit to the lunacy of the right. It's boundless.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 12, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
You Americans Have No Idea Just How Good You Have It With Obama
Many of us Canadians are confused by the U.S. midterm elections. Consider, right now in America, corporate profits are at record highs, the country's adding 200,000 jobs per month, unemployment is below 6%, U.S. gross national product growth is the best of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries. The dollar is at its strongest levels in years, the stock market is near record highs, gasoline prices are falling, there's no inflation, interest rates are the lowest in 30 years, U.S. oil imports are declining, U.S. oil production is rapidly increasing, the deficit is rapidly declining, and the wealthy are still making astonishing amounts of money.

America is leading the world once again and respected internationally — in sharp contrast to the Bush years. Obama brought soldiers home from Iraq and killed Osama bin Laden.

So, Americans vote for the party that got you into the mess that Obama just dug you out of? This defies reason.

When you are done with Obama, could you send him our way?

Richard Brunt

Victoria, British Columbia
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 12, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
I came back after a day of driving around finding items of want...

I come back to find I'm still being trolled by a child...


The Chief

climber
Laughing at all you angry blinded Sheep

Nov 12, 2014 - 09:23am PT
TROLL/dealing with an arrogant 9 year old? Jingy?


Nope.


[Click to View YouTube Video]






You JINGY are the ST epitome of American Liberal mediocrity and denialism. Plain and simple.


 And you say I waste my time...

That's just rich..

Talk about mediocre...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 12, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
WOW! A big day for spewing on this thread.

Wish more of the right-wing posts made sense, but you have to respect the sources.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 13, 2014 - 04:55am PT
Sketch,I will concede that,but,on policy,what else?

Really.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 13, 2014 - 07:19am PT
Can't wait to see the reaction next week when the president shows leadership and uses executive action to enact immigration reform. Can't wait for the do-nothing Republican congress any longer.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 13, 2014 - 07:22am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I'd like to say a few words
In defense of our country
Whose people aren't bad
Nor are they mean
Now the leaders we have
While they're the worst that we've had
Are hardly the worst
This poor world has seen

Take the Caesars for example
Within the first few of them
They were sleeping with their sister,
Stashing little boys in swimming pools
And burning down the city
And one of 'em, one of 'em
Appointed his own horse to be Consul of the Empire
That's like vice president or something
Wait a minute, that's not a very good example is it?
But wait, here's one,
The Spanish Inquisition
It put people in a terrible position
I don't even like to think about it
Well sometimes I like to think about it

Just a few words in defense of our country
Whose time at the top
Could be coming to an end
We don't want your love
And respect at this point is pretty much out of the question
But times like these
We sure could use a friend

Hitler
Stalin
Men who need no introduction
King Leopold of Belgium, that's right
Everyone thinks he's so great
Well he owned The Congo and he tore it up too
He took the diamonds
He took the silver
He took the gold
You know what he left them with?
Malaria
A President once said,
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
Now, we're supposed to be afraid
It's patriotic in fact and color-coded
And what are we supposed to be afraid of?
Why of being afraid
That's what terror means, doesn't it?
That's what it used to mean

You know it kind of pisses me off
That this Supreme Court is going to outlive me
A couple of young Italian fellas and a brother on the Court now, too
But I defy you, anywhere in the world,
To find me two Italians as tightassed as the two Italians we got
And as for the brother, well
Pluto's not a planet anymore either

The end of an Empire is messy at best
And this Empire is ending
Like all the rest
Like the Spanish Armada adrift on the sea
We're adrift in the land of the brave and the home of the free

Goodbye
Goodbye
Goodbye
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2014 - 08:08am PT
Lol. Butthurt thinks Dave Kos is "stalking" him because he remembers something Butthurt wrote a day or two ago. Butthurt should actually be glad someone bothers to read his posts. But Butthurts gonna butthurt.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 13, 2014 - 08:33am PT
Any one of these 'coincidences' when taken singularly appear to not mean much, but when taken as a whole, a computer would blow a main circuit if you asked it to calculate the odds that they have occurred by chance alone.

Sit back, get a favorite beverage, and then read and ponder the Obama-related 'coincidences', then superimpose the bigger picture of most recent events i.e., Fast and furious, Benghazi, the IRS scandal and the NSA revelations... then pray for our country.

Obama
just happened to know 60's far-left radical revolutionary William Ayers, whose father
just happened to be Thomas Ayers, who
just happened to be a close friend of Obama's communist mentor Frank Marshall Davis, who
just happened to work at the communist-sympathizing Chicago Defender with Vernon Jarrett, who
just happened to later become the father-in-law of Iranian-born leftist Valerie Jarrett, who Obama
just happened to choose as his closest White House adviser, and who
just happened to have been CEO of Habitat Company, which
just happened to manage public housing in Chicago, which
just happened to get millions of dollars from the Illinois state legislature, and which
just happened not to properly maintain the housing which eventually
just happened to require demolition. * Not to mention that this is the property that would have been the grounds that hosted the Olympics, had Obama's efforts been successful**

Valerie Jarrett also

just happened to work for the city of Chicago, and
just happened to hire Michelle LaVaughan Robinson (later Mrs. Obama), who
just happened to have worked at the Sidney Austin law firm, where former fugitive from the FBI Bernardine Dohrn also just happened to work, and where Barack Obama
just happened to get a summer job.

Bernardine Dohrn

just happened to be married to William Ayers, with whom she
just happened to have hidden from the FBI at a San Francisco marina, along with Donald Warden, who
just happened to change his name to Khalid al-Mansour, and Warden/al-Mansour who
just happened to be a mentor of Black Panther Party founders Huey Newton and Bobby Seale and a close associate of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, and al-Mansour
just happened to be financial adviser to a Saudi Prince, who
just happened to donate cash to Harvard, for which Obama
just happened to get a critical letter of recommendation from Percy Sutton, who just happened to have been the attorney for Malcolm X, who
just happened to know Kenyan politician Tom Mboya, who
just happened to be a close friend of Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., who
just happened to meet Malcolm X when he traveled to Kenya .

Obama, Sr.
just happened to have his education at the University of Hawaii paid for by the Laubach Literacy Institute, which
just happened to have been supported by Elizabeth Mooney Kirk, who
just happened to be a friend of Malcolm X, who
just happened to have been associated with the Nation of Islam, which was later headed by Louis Farrakhan, who
just happens to live very close to Obama's Chicago mansion, which also
just happens to be located very close to the residence of William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.

After attending Occidental College and Columbia University, where he
just happened to have foreign Muslim roommates, Obama moved to Chicago to work for the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF), an organization that
just happened to have been founded by Marxist and radical agitator Saul the Red Alinsky, author of Rules for Radicals, who
just happened to be the topic of Hillary Rodham Clinton's thesis at Wellesley College, and Obamas $25,000 salary at IAF
just happened to be funded by a grant from the Woods Fund, which was founded by the Woods family, whose Sahara Coal company
just happened to provide coal to Commonwealth Edison, whose CEO just happened to be Thomas Ayers, whose son William Ayers
just happened to serve on the board of the Woods Fund, along with Obama.

Obama also worked on voter registration drives in Chicago in the 1980's and
just happened to work with leftist political groups like the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) and Socialist International (SI), through which Obama met Carl Davidson, who
just happened to travel to Cuba during the Vietnam War to sabotage the U.S. war effort, and who
just happened to be a former member of the SDS and a member of the Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism, which
just happened to sponsor a 2002 anti-war rally at which Obama spoke, and which
just happened to have been organized by Marilyn Katz, a former SDS activist and later public relations consultant who
just happened to be a long-time friend of Obama's political hatchet man, David Axelrod.

Obama joined Trinity United Church of Christ (TUCC), whose pastor was Reverend Jeremiah Wright, a fiery orator who
just happened to preach Marxism and Black Liberation Theology and who delivered anti-white, anti-Jew, and anti-American sermons, which Obama
just happened never to hear because he
just happened to miss church only on the days when Wright was at his most enthusiastic, and Obama
just happened never to notice that Oprah Winfrey left the church because it was too radical, and
just happened never to notice that the church gave the vile anti-Semitic Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan a lifetime achievement award.

Although no one had ever heard of him at the time, Obama
just happened to receive an impossible-to-believe $125,000 advance to write a book about race relations, which he
just happened to fail to write while using the cash to vacation in Bali with his wife Michelle, and despite his record of non-writing he just happened to receive a second advance, for $40,000, from another publisher, and he eventually completed a manuscript called Dreams From My Father, which
just happened to strongly reflect the writing style of William Ayers, who
just happened to trample on an American flag for the cover photograph of the popular Chicago magazine, which Obama
just happened never to see even though it appeared on newsstands throughout the city.

Obama was hired by the law firm Miner, Banhill and Galland, which
just happened to specialize in negotiating state government contracts to develop low-income housing, and which
just happened to deal with now-imprisoned Tony Rezko and his firm Rezar, and with slumlord Valerie Jarrett, and the law firms Judson Miner
just happened to have been a classmate of Bernardine Dohrn, wife of William Ayers.

In 1994 Obama represented ACORN and another plaintiff in a lawsuit against Citibank for denying mortgages to blacks (Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Federal Savings Bank), and the lawsuit
just happened to result in banks being blackmailed into approving sub-prime loans for poor credit risks, a trend which
just happened to spread nationwide, and which
just happened to lead to the collapse of the housing bubble, which
just happened to help Obama defeat John McCain in the 2008 presidential election.

In 1996 Obama ran for the Illinois State Senate and joined the New Party, which
just happened to promote Marxism, and Obama was supported by Dr. Quentin Yong, a socialist who
just happened to support a government takeover of the health care system.

In late 1999, Obama purportedly engaged in homosexual activities and cocaine-snorting in the back of a limousine with a man named Larry Sinclair, who claims he was contacted in late 2007 by Donald Young, who
just happened to be the gay choir director of Obama's Chicago church and who shared information with Sinclair about Obama, and Young
just happened to be murdered on December 23, 2007, just weeks after Larry Bland, another gay member of the church
just happened to be murdered, and both murders
just happened to have never been solved. In 2008 Sinclair held a press conference to discuss his claims, and
just happened to be arrested immediately after the event, based on a warrant issued by Delaware Attorney General Beau Biden, who
just happens to be the son of Joe Biden.

In 2003 Obama and his wife attended a dinner in honor of Rashid Khalidi, who
just happened to be a former PLO operative, harsh critic of Israel , and advocate of Palestinian rights, and who Obama claims he does not know, even though the Obama's
just happened to have dined more than once at the home of Khalidi and his wife, Mona, and
just happened to have used them as occasional baby-sitters. Obama reportedly praised Khalidi at the decidedly anti-Semitic event, which William Ayers
just happened to also attend, and the event Obama pretends he never attended was sponsored by the Arab American Action Network, to which Obama
just happened to have funneled cash while serving on the board of the Woods Fund with William Ayers, and one speaker at the dinner remarked that if Palestinians cannot secure a return of their land, Israel will never see a day of peace, and entertainment at the dinner included a Muslim children's dance whose performances
just happened to include simulated be-headings with fake swords, and stomping on American, Israeli, and British flags, and Obama allegedly told the audience that Israel has no God-given right to occupy Palestine and there has been genocide against the Palestinian people by (the) Israelis, and the Los Angeles Times has a videotape of the event but
just happens to refuse to make it public.

In the 2004 Illinois Democrat primary race for the U.S. Senate, front-runner Blair Hull
just happened to be forced out of the race after David Axelrod just happened to manage to get Hulls sealed divorce records unsealed, which just happened to enable Obama to win the primary, so he could face popular Republican Jack Ryan, whose sealed child custody records from his divorce
just happened to become unsealed, forcing Ryan to withdraw from the race, which
just happened to enable the unqualified Obama to waltz into the U.S. Senate, where, after a mere 143 days of work, he
just happened to decide he was qualified to run for President of the United States.

and now you really do know the rest of the story.....BTW...There are NO coincidences..... - Mychal Massie (http://mychal-massie.com/premium/);
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Nov 13, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Many of us Canadians are confused by the U.S. midterm elections. Consider, right now in America, corporate profits are at record highs, the country's adding 200,000 jobs per month, unemployment is below 6%, U.S. gross national product growth is the best of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries. The dollar is at its strongest levels in years, the stock market is near record highs, gasoline prices are falling, there's no inflation, interest rates are the lowest in 30 years, U.S. oil imports are declining, U.S. oil production is rapidly increasing, the deficit is rapidly declining, and the wealthy are still making astonishing amounts of money.

Corporate profits are at all time highs because corporations are leveraged to the hilt with cheap money- corporate debt is also at an all time high, and as soon as the cheap money dries up things will go south very quickly. Jobs are finally being created, but we never filled in the gap from the recession - unemployment has only gone down because people have stopped looking for work or taken part time jobs. And there is inflation - at about 2-3% a year (even more for food), which although small is fairly punishing because wages have not gone up, in fact in real terms wages are about 10% below what they were in 2007.

In short, the recovery never really came, which was to be expected. We tried a little socialism, it didn't work. Shocking!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 13, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
Werner for the troll...

WBraun

climber

Nov 13, 2014 - 09:01am PT
Yeah ^^^^

These stupid moron loser politards like cranknutcases, the jinguses, the Nortons are always wrong about everything in the their stooopid lunatic politarded world .....

 has a "Why is the left so wrong about everything?" threads lately, and I admittedly am the tarded one.

Glad you stuck around to give us your ultimate wisdom.... shallow
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 13, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
"In short, the recovery never really came, which was to be expected. We tried a little socialism, it didn't work. Shocking!"


Yes capitalism has done wonders for the middle class the last 30 years. Shocking!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 13, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula

Nov 13, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
Lol. Butthurt thinks Dave Kos is "stalking" him because he remembers something Butthurt wrote a day or two ago. Butthurt should actually be glad someone bothers to read his posts. But Butthurts gonna butthurt.

In hundreds of posts here, Sketch has only mentioned actual policy once.

And when he did, he went full libtard.

That's right, Sketch is a libtard!

BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!1!11

Saving this in my person file....

Now it's proof!!

Hahhahaha
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Nov 13, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
the only "socialism" tried was the stock market more than doubled in the past 6 years, and all
that wealth was supposed to trickle down, but that socialism has not worked, the rich just got a lot richer and the poor are still poor

oops, socialism is the government ownership of the means of production, so no, we didn't try that

care to try again?

As a matter of fact, during the financial crisis, Government bought shares of private companies to keep them solvent, or at least to protect their friend's bonuses. Remember TARP? SOCIALISM.

Wealth created through capitalism does trickle down- this has been shown many times (see for example http://library1.nida.ac.th/worldbankf/fulltext/wps02587.pdf);, but when Government controls the redistribution, the money rarely trickles past their cronies.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Nov 13, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Yes capitalism has done wonders for the middle class the last 30 years. Shocking!

30 years ago we had something resembling capitalism (well at least 60 years ago). Not so much anymore...

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 13, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
"Wealth created through capitalism does trickle down- this has been shown many times (see for example http://library1.nida.ac.th/worldbankf/fulltext/wps02587.pdf);;, but when Government controls the redistribution, the money rarely trickles past their cronies."


How does that effect Wal-mart and other corporations from giving workers a livable wage??
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 13, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
We privatize Wall Street profits and socialize Wall Street losses.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 13, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Sketch...The next level after stalking is leg-humping and you got a leg-up on Kos...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 13, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
...and with some ball-cupping practice, you might one day aspire to Moundhouse, NV greatness!
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 13, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
The president is about to show some real leadership and it's going to drive the right wingers crazy....this is going to be fun!!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/opinion/big-and-bold-on-immigration.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 14, 2014 - 05:54am PT
"I would also like to see President Obama say HELLNO to the war machine"

I hear you there DMT,but,I don't think he can.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2014 - 05:56am PT
I agree Dingus. Let them whine all they want about him not working with Congress. Congress has had plenty of opportunities to work with Obama on this and Climate change. Their response: "F.U. Barry." Despite their claims, Congress is KNOTT interested in working with Obama.

And btw righties: there is nothing inherently with executive orders.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 14, 2014 - 05:59am PT
The Machine is to big.



Exactly why^^^^.

It is one thing to dislike him,but to deny the fact he has righted the ship,despite complete obstruction and very little help from anyone but his own party,is ,impressive.

It is proven that our ideals work[see progressive].

I know that really pisses you off.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2014 - 06:27am PT
Good news for the country...and bad news for Republicans who want health care to fail.

Poll: Good reviews for Obamacare coverage
By LUCY MCCALMONT 11/14/14 6:43 AM EST
A majority of Americans give good reviews for insurance they recently acquired through government exchanges within the past year, a new poll shows.
With the second round of Obamacare enrollment set to begin on Saturday, 71 percent said their coverage through the exchanges was good or excellent, according to a Gallup poll released Friday. Another 19 percent said the coverage was fair, while 9 percent rated it poorly.

The pollster notes that these marks are comparable to all who have health insurance. However, those newly insured through the exchanges are more satisfied with the cost of health care — with 75 percent saying so — versus 61 percent of all insured respondents who said they were satisfied with the cost of health care.
A majority — 68 percent — who received insurance through the exchanges said they plan to renew their policy, while an additional 7 percent said they will look for a new policy, but through the exchanges.
The Gallup poll was conducted Oct. 22-Nov. 12 and surveyed 407 adults who were newly insured through a government health care exchange in 2014. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 6 percentage points.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2014 - 08:35am PT
^^^^
Debunked story from 2012

No surprise, Bush leads the way...
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2014 - 08:57am PT
Soon as you redneck chickenhawks start another war.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2014 - 09:00am PT
Hard to say, Sketch...the economy is doing so much better than it was in 2009. Given what Obama inherited, and the positive trajectory we've been on, he'll probably come out looking pretty good....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 14, 2014 - 09:04am PT
Soon as you redneck chickenhawks start another war.

Hasn't Barry already started one?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2014 - 09:06am PT
Not really...just can't seem to get out of the ones that your guys started, TGT.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 14, 2014 - 10:18am PT
Cuts to education, arts, infrastructure, healthcare and so on...nothing on military. Big surprise.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Crack posted
Corporate profits are at all time highs because corporations are leveraged to the hilt with cheap money- corporate debt is also at an all time high, and as soon as the cheap money dries up things will go south very quickly. Jobs are finally being created, but we never filled in the gap from the recession - unemployment has only gone down because people have stopped looking for work or taken part time jobs. And there is inflation - at about 2-3% a year (even more for food), which although small is fairly punishing because wages have not gone up, in fact in real terms wages are about 10% below what they were in 2007.

In short, the recovery never really came, which was to be expected. We tried a little socialism, it didn't work. Shocking!

What do you call a post in which every single factual point is demonstrably false? Well, not the wages one, that ones just misplaced.

Let's take the "socialism" one though. Despite the fact that you don't understand what the word means, your point is apparently that government intervention in market liquidity in a time of recession doesn't work. How do square that with the fact that every country that tried austerity has a flagging economy while ours is fairly robust? Also explain how the recovery looked promising up until the stimulus ran out and then we went into year after year of "almost but not quite" solid recovery while state budgets were slashed and the congressional action on the economy was entirely hands off.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 16, 2014 - 09:51am PT
http://blog.chron.com/goplifer/2014/11/the-missing-story-of-the-2014-election/



Read it and weep republicans.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2014 - 10:30am PT
Great article Bob.


Republicans: smoke 'em while you have 'em. It won't last long.

And btw, Texas will likely be purple in decade.
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Nov 16, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Wow, that Chron article made me feel a lot better.
It's nice to see someone with some sense on the right.

This is an age built for Republican solutions. The global economy is undergoing a massive, accelerating transformation that promises massive new wealth and staggering challenges. We need heads-up, intelligent adaptations to capitalize on those challenges. Republicans, with their traditional leadership on commercial issues should be at the leading edge of planning to capitalize on this emerging environment.

What are we getting from Republicans? Climate denial, theocracy, thinly veiled racism, paranoia, and Benghazi hearings. Lots and lots of hearings on Benghazi.

It is almost too late for Republicans to participate in shaping the next wave of our economic and political transformation. The opportunities we inherited coming out of the Reagan Era are blinking out of existence one by one while we chase so-called “issues” so stupid, so blindingly disconnected from our emerging needs that our grandchildren will look back on our performance in much the same way that we see the failures of the generation that fought desegregation.

bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Nov 16, 2014 - 11:08am PT
As for those cuts, we've seen that song and dance before.

They look rather impressive on paper and get people all rallied up to reduce some deficits. But then they realize that those cuts effect their districts, and one by one, the list gets whittled down to cutting maybe 50% from NPRs budget because everyone knows only commies listen to NPR.

And lets not forget the bloated, about to explode elephant taking up about 60% of the space in the room, the military. GOP will (try to) nickel and dime their way through spending on science, healthcare, and improving the lives of those less fortunate all while ignoring the obvious.

I for one, hope Obama uses his veto pen freely.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2014 - 11:40am PT
That is a great article, Bob.

Unfortunately, such clear facts will be completely lost on these pathetic old white Repub males who are gloating on the last remaining shred of hope that has just happened to land in their laps.

Agonal respirations in a dying patient are not an optimistic sign of improvement. It means the patient is about to die. Good riddance, GOP....maybe you'll reincarnate as something more accessible & relevant to the American people.
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Nov 16, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Agonal respirations, a perfect analogy.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 16, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
What are we getting from Republicans? Climate denial, theocracy, thinly veiled racism, paranoia, and Benghazi hearings. Lots and lots of hearings on Benghazi

And trying to roll back health care reform...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 16, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
Bob D'A you can't make them go to another website. Especially to read something about reality that they are not completely comfortable with.

I took the time to take a look into the future for them...

I brought a little piece of the message back with me to paint it here.

Few things are as dangerous to a long term strategy as a short-term victory. Republicans this week scored the kind of win that sets one up for spectacular, catastrophic failure and no one is talking about it.

What emerges from the numbers is the continuation of a trend that has been in place for almost two decades. Once again, Republicans are disappearing from the competitive landscape at the national level across the most heavily populated sections of the country while intensifying their hold on a declining electoral bloc of aging, white, rural voters. The 2014 election not only continued that doomed pattern, it doubled down on it. As a result, it became apparent from the numbers last week that no Republican candidate has a credible shot at the White House in 2016, and the chance of the GOP holding the Senate for longer than two years is precisely zero.


 The graph made me think of a recent graphic I had seen, but about a totally different subject entirely.
I wasn't thinking that there was a connection...
But then I looked a little closer.



hmmmmmm....


Is there a connection?


I guess we left leaning types will just have to wait for a favored repub to come along, break the republication mold, to change the game at it's core....

Do I think there are any of those repubs out there?


Not

A

One!!



Until the republican superman shows up and brings the entire country together as one nation... we just have to wait while teams of seconds run this place into the ground.

Or we can wait for their water to boil over...
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Nov 16, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
Yea Bob,

It's hard to do(intellectual)battle with idiots.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
Sketch, you know damn well that article is pretty spot-on. And you aren't a Republican (in the contemporary, retarded sense of the word), either. You are Conservative.

And today's GOP only barely maintains a few shreds of principled conservatism. You'd be happy as hell (like many Americans) to see today's GOP die a mouldering death, and come back as a Party that is truly fiscally conservative, allows individuals to make their own choices about their lives, and is more concerned about the myriad of domestic issues rather than jumping beyond our own borders.

Should a Party like that ever come forward, and world political history will be made. Until then, you're stuck defending a Party that is only about 15% of what you truly believe.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 17, 2014 - 06:10am PT
You'd be happy as hell (like many Americans) to see today's GOP die a mouldering death

 Agreed. But not as much as I'd like to have this same mindless conservative enthusiasm working mindlessly for the planet instead of profit.
If we could only get the modern conservative to side with humans again... like they used to.

But this is virtually impossible with this group of headless chickens running around Washington gloating over their recent winnin's.


It was good enough for Reagan....
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 Republican Shame Either Way You Put It!!!

It was good enough for Bush....
[Click to View YouTube Video]

F*#king shameful sh#t repubs...


But if Obama thinks about it?
[Click to View YouTube Video]


 Republicans are a shame.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2014 - 07:50am PT
Well whaddya know, not all government programs are abject failures.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/17/opinion/paul-krugman-when-government-succeeds.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0

The great American Ebola freakout of 2014 seems to be over. The disease is still ravaging Africa, and as with any epidemic, there’s always a risk of a renewed outbreak. But there haven’t been any new U.S. cases for a while, and popular anxiety is fading fast.

Before we move on, however, let’s try to learn something from the panic.

When the freakout was at its peak, Ebola wasn’t just a disease — it was a political metaphor. It was, specifically, held up by America’s right wing as a symbol of government failure. The usual suspects claimed that the Obama administration was falling down on the job, but more than that, they insisted that conventional policy was incapable of dealing with the situation. Leading Republicans suggested ignoring everything we know about disease control and resorting to extreme measures like travel bans, while mocking claims that health officials knew what they were doing.

Guess what: Those officials actually did know what they were doing. The real lesson of the Ebola story is that sometimes public policy is succeeding even while partisans are screaming about failure. And it’s not the only recent story along those lines.

Here’s another: Remember Solyndra? It was a renewable-energy firm that borrowed money using Department of Energy guarantees, then went bust, costing the Treasury $528 million. And conservatives have pounded on that loss relentlessly, turning it into a symbol of what they claim is rampant crony capitalism and a huge waste of taxpayer money.

Defenders of the energy program tried in vain to point out that anyone who makes a lot of investments, whether it’s the government or a private venture capitalist, is going to see some of those investments go bad. For example, Warren Buffett is an investing legend, with good reason — but even he has had his share of lemons, like the $873 million loss he announced earlier this year on his investment in a Texas energy company. Yes, that’s half again as big as the federal loss on Solyndra.

The question is not whether the Department of Energy has made some bad loans — if it hasn’t, it’s not taking enough risks. It’s whether it has a pattern of bad loans. And the answer, it turns out, is no. Last week the department revealed that the program that included Solyndra is, in fact, on track to return profits of $5 billion or more.

Then there’s health reform. As usual, much of the national dialogue over the Affordable Care Act is being dominated by fake scandals drummed up by the enemies of reform. But if you look at the actual results so far, they’re remarkably good. The number of Americans without health insurance has dropped sharply, with around 10 million of the previously uninsured now covered; the program’s costs remain below expectations, with average premium rises for next year well below historical rates of increase; and a new Gallup survey finds that the newly insured are very satisfied with their coverage. By any normal standards, this is a dramatic example of policy success, verging on policy triumph.

One last item: Remember all the mockery of Obama administration assertions that budget deficits, which soared during the financial crisis, would come down as the economy recovered? Surely the exploding costs of Obamacare, combined with a stimulus program that would become a perpetual boondoggle, would lead to vast amounts of red ink, right? Well, no — the deficit has indeed come down rapidly, and as a share of G.D.P. it’s back down to pre-crisis levels.

The moral of these stories is not that the government is always right and always succeeds. Of course there are bad decisions and bad programs. But modern American political discourse is dominated by cheap cynicism about public policy, a free-floating contempt for any and all efforts to improve our lives. And this cheap cynicism is completely unjustified. It’s true that government-hating politicians can sometimes turn their predictions of failure into self-fulfilling prophecies, but when leaders want to make government work, they can.

And let’s be clear: The government policies we’re talking about here are hugely important. We need serious public health policy, not fear-mongering, to contain infectious disease. We need government action to promote renewable energy and fight climate change. Government programs are the only realistic answer for tens of millions of Americans who would otherwise be denied essential health care.

Conservatives want you to believe that while the goals of public programs on health, energy and more may be laudable, experience shows that such programs are doomed to failure. Don’t believe them. Yes, sometimes government officials, being human, get things wrong. But we’re actually surrounded by examples of government success, which they don’t want you to notice.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 17, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Nice dodge, assh0le.

You frequently call me a coward, yet you run away like a little pussy when asked simply questions.


Hmmm, this reminds me of somebody who frequents this forum, makes bogus claims, then runs away when asked to explain themselves.

The person I'm thinking of quickly turns to name-calling when pressured, in an attempt to deflect the responsibility of having to answer for themselves.

Remind you of anybody Sketch? It should, just hold up a mirror.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 17, 2014 - 08:55am PT
“[T]here’s no denying that many blacks share the same anxieties as many whites about the wave of illegal immigration flooding our Southern border—a sense that what’s happening now is fundamentally different from what has gone on before.”

”Not all these fears are irrational”.

“The number of immigrants added to the labor force every year is of a magnitude not seen in this country for over a century,”...“If this huge influx of mostly low-skill workers provides some benefits to the economy as a whole—especially by keeping our workforce young, in contrast to an increasingly geriatric Europe and Japan—it also threatens to depress further the wages of blue-collar Americans and put strains on an already overburdened safety net.”


who's the right-wing hater and bigot who had the "audacity" to write such bile?

that would be barry


hmmm...was he lying then or is he lying now? i guess with a congenital liar both are true
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 17, 2014 - 09:15am PT
What are the republicacks for again?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

It may come out that this years elections turn out to have been the failure of the republican party at its base.
It's base is not cohesive in any way...

It's like we're watching the republican party succumb to the very thing that the republican party being cut down by the very thing that they themselves want more...
WBraun

climber
Nov 17, 2014 - 09:18am PT
You Psycho politard loons are the ones destroying mankind and the planet.

All of you Psycho politarded loons .....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 17, 2014 - 09:41am PT
WBraun - Oh, troll on wise man, so are the politards
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 17, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
You're full of sh#t.

Sketch, do you plan to explain why this might be true, or are we to just take your word at it's value?


Currently, your word has little value so perhaps the latter is best.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 17, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
"Do you think this policy will lead to significant repercussions?"


You mean aside from the current economic expansion & upswing?

What the hell else do you want?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 17, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
Moosedrool has an idea...

Bernie Sanders for President!

How about...? Sanders / Warren 2016!
WBraun

climber
Nov 17, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
You will get the witch Hitlery or the loon Jeb Bush.

It makes no difference since they all work for the same criminals.

You people are certified loons ......
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 17, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
Yes, his planet was momentarily in an orbit that allowed a transmission to Earth.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 17, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
loons that need some poon!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 17, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
You will get the witch Hitlery or the loon Jeb Bush.

It makes no difference since they all work for the same criminals.

Werner makes an excellent point. It's also why you won't see a Sanders/Warren ticket.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 18, 2014 - 04:59am PT
Good point..

[Click to View YouTube Video]

....repubs are winners?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 18, 2014 - 05:45am PT
No, jingy, the Repubs are not winners. They are realists. They represent the corporate faction that knows that capitalism doesn't work in the long run. Thus, they are trying to steal everything they can before the house of cards collapse. The Democrats represent the more optimistic faction of the corporate oligarchy. They think that by throwing the people a few scraps from the table now and then that they can keep the system working and keep the money rolling in.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 18, 2014 - 06:50am PT
http://www.businessinsider.com/nine-great-things-about-california-2013-4?op=1

http://www.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2011/08/31/51-reasons-california-is-americas-best-state

I've heard that California got rid of the problem that was holding us back....

We got rid of the republican...

How is it that Jerry Brown was able to turn around the state so quickly?

Maybe he controls everyone in the media in California?
Maybe he strong-armed the California media into reporting stories that were not true?
The facts are being skewed about California to make it look better than it actually is
It's all an illusion (AKA-WB)

Gary - blah, blah, blah... We can make the case that either all people are realists, or they are blowhards who are self interested.

Where that places me in this discussion means nothing...

Molt your labels
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Republicans are empty as the snake skin...


Just remember...

Goerge Bush Sr. and Jimmy Carter have one thing in common....

Bad one term presidencies.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 18, 2014 - 07:12am PT
It was good enough for Reagan....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
In this brief video-clip from the 1984 presidential debates Ronald Reagan discusses immigration, amnesty and the failure of the first attempt to pass the Simpson-Mazzoli Immigration Reform and Control Act. [When the act finally passed (1986) did we get reform? Did we get control?]

 Republican Shame Either Way You Put It!!!

It was good enough for Bush....
[Click to View YouTube Video]

F*#king shameful sh#t repubs...


But if Obama thinks about it?
[Click to View YouTube Video]


 Republicans are a shame.


Republicans are a shame.



Shame Shame Shame



republicanas = shame


How do they plan on taking care of Immigration...
[Click to View YouTube Video]


You can thank Paul Ryan first again....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 18, 2014 - 09:50am PT

Barry's been in bed with the big insurers since day one!


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/us/politics/health-law-turns-obama-and-insurers-into-allies.html?_r=0

“Insurers and the government have developed a symbiotic relationship, nurtured by tens of billions of dollars that flow from the federal Treasury to insurers each year,” said Michael F. Cannon, director of health policy studies at the libertarian Cato Institute.

So much so, in fact, that insurers may soon be on a collision course with the Republican majority in the new Congress. Insurers, often aligned with Republicans in the past, have built their business plans around the law and will strenuously resist Republican efforts to dismantle it. Since Mr. Obama signed the law, share prices for four of the major insurance companies — Aetna, Cigna, Humana and UnitedHealth — have more than doubled, while the Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index has increased about 70 percent.

“These companies all look at government programs as growth markets,” said Michael J. Tuffin, a former executive vice president of America’s Health Insurance Plans, the main lobby for the industry. “There will be nearly $2 trillion of subsidized coverage through insurance exchanges and Medicaid over the next 10 years. These are pragmatic companies. They will follow the customer.”
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 18, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
Barry's been in bed with the big insurers since day one!

 Name me some republicans who are not in bed with Insurance.... And what about being in bed with big oil, big pharma, big auto, big finance, big law.....

Sorry.... me thinks berry really is the best of all evils that you and the world present to me.

Republicans are just bad human specimen


What does this sound like to you?
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 18, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
I'm surprised there's no mention the Keystone Pipeline was defeated in the Senate today by one vote.

Think & spew what you want, but I believe: it is now a issue between the Koch brothers, who hold big a big chunk of the Canadian Oil Sands, (and of course own the Republican right with their bribes/donations), and those who would like to spite the Koch brothers and the Republican right.

Since the price of oil has declined to well below the cost of profitable Canadian Oil Sand production, we Koch-haters might hope they will suffer huge financial losses.

That is likely, but the Koch Corp. lawyers will make sure they don't suffer undue adverse effects.

I think we can count on the 2015 Congress passing the Keystone Pipeline approval bill and repealing Obamacare at least 20 or 30 more times in the next 2 years.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 18, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Let's wait and see what happens when the Republicans try to take away affordable health care from 11 million Americans , 70% of whom like and need the insurance..
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 18, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted." -Frank Herbert
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:08am PT
Reagan was corrupt, too?

SHOCKING.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:16am PT
Then on June 17, 1954, what was called "Operation Wetback" began. Because political resistance was lower in California and Arizona, the roundup of aliens began there. Some 750 agents swept northward through agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Another 488,000, fearing arrest, had fled the country.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html


Not sure what the answers are. Open borders? Should we just drop all immigration law? Or enforce the laws in existence? Crack down on employers?
I blame both parties.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2014 - 07:27am PT
Really, both parties, Larry? In the past ten years, which party has largely been responsible for blocking any kind of moderate, bipartisan reform endorsed by many republicans?



Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:52am PT
Dirtbag,
If one party is responsible for blocking moderate reform, how can it be bi-partisan?
Ours is a system of checks and balances. You might dislike not having it all your own way, but you have to compromise with opposing views to get major legislation passed...most of the time.
(ACA passed because of Harry Reid's procedures to block the filibuster rule, if I remember correctly)
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2014 - 08:18am PT
Jesus Larry, were you even paying attention last year?

In the summer of 2013 a bipartisan immigration bill (receiving, I believe, 68 votes) passed the Senate, only to die in the right wing controlled house without any discussion. Again Larry, this is not an instance of "both parties are too blame." It was killed by right wingers, who completely abdicated their responsibility to govern by refusing to even discuss the issue.

Before that, 10 years or so ago, right wingers in congress refused to seriously discuss moderate immigration proposals endorsed by the president (W).

Look it up Larry. One party, and only one party, is to blame on this one.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:37am PT
"If one party is responsible for blocking moderate reform, how can it be bi-partisan?"

If one accepts this idea, then it follows that the oppositional party should be contributing something...anything...as an alternative to the other Party's bills.

Can you point to it?

Opposition without any kind of productive alternative ('self deportation' doesn't count) isn't leadership, Larry. It's a political strategy that is aimed at simply regaining power, and thwarting the interests of American people and the Constitution.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 19, 2014 - 09:12am PT
to respond to the original query:

republicans only appear "wrong" to the stupid...if you don't believe me, ask gruber...like oedipus thinks tieresias is stupid because tieresias knows what will happen if oedipus pursues his policy


http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/18/politics/gruber-obamacare-promises/index.html


crankster

Trad climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 09:51am PT
^^^
Gruber's all the rage with the Fox crazies.
What a snoozer.

Now, lets get back to that non-existent ebola crisis...
or the non-existent $5/gal. gas...
or the non-existent 8% unemployment...
or the non-existent IRS scandal...

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2014 - 10:00am PT
“The biggest issue in the country is that we don't discuss the biggest issue in the country,” Sanders told me in his Senate office last week.

“How does it happen that today the economists tell us that 95% of all new income created in America goes to the top 1%? How does it happen that we have by far the most unequal distribution of wealth and income of any major country on Earth, where one family, the Walton family of Wal-Mart, owns more wealth than the bottom 40% of the American people? How does that happen, and what do we do about it?”
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 19, 2014 - 10:03am PT
Gruber's all the rage with the Fox crazies.
What a snoozer.

You mean because we knew all along that they were selling the ACA through opacity, gaming the CBO, and in reliance on the stupidity of the American voter? Republicans certainly knew that, but I guess Democrats did, too.

Now, lets get back to that non-existent ebola crisis...
or the non-existent $5/gal. gas...
or the non-existent 8% unemployment...
or the non-existent IRS scandal

Oh, I forgot. None of the above ever happened. Our bad.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2014 - 10:10am PT
"None of the above ever happened. Our bad."

John, your status as a Republican is going to be revoked if you keep acknowledging reality and fact like that.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2014 - 10:42am PT
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 19, 2014 - 11:36am PT
Another day for all these criminal politarded loon enablers here (the cranknutcases of America) to further destroy the world .....

This is a classic "Americans are stooopid" display.

Only in stoopid America can stooopid sh!t like this happen.

The criminal politarded loons of America are the enablers for this kind of stoopid sh!t.

Criminal politarded loons?

Yes YOU .... that's right .... YOU ......

John M

climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
Maybe I am a closet republican, but could someone explain what is so wrong with the keystone pipeline, since America already has a crisscross of pipelines? And since they changed the proposed route to avoid some sensitive areas?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 19, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
"Maybe I am a closet republican, but could someone explain what is so wrong with the keystone pipeline, since America already has a crisscross of pipelines? And since they changed the proposed route to avoid some sensitive areas?"


How does it benefit America/Americans?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
I feel sorry for JElezarian. He's to the GOP as Gary is to the democrat party.... a very poor fit. :(

FYI, I've never registered Democrat, and am currently registered Peace and Freedom.

I would vote for Sanders in a primary, though, if he switches to the Dems.

As for John, the GOP left him a long time ago, methinks.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
Well, the Dems might have chosen the wrong windmill to tilt after with Keystone, but there are arguments to be made that it will simply reinforce oil dependence, create risk to our own lands, it's for oil that is likely to be mostly shipped to other countries, and the extraction & refinement process is pretty nasty. Still worthy considerations.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 19, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
What's odd is that congress is trying to mandate approval of a single private pipeline project. The project is really just a pissing contest between the Kochs and that hedge fund guy.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Fook you illuminati!

That's right--fook you!

Fook your mother and yer daddy too!

We know all about you and your implant plans. Fook that, fook you!




...since They see and read everything, let's see how long it takes for me to disappear. ;-)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 19, 2014 - 02:00pm PT

How does it benefit America/Americans?

It doesn't, if you're a "let them eat cake" Democrat like Steyer. If you want a job, it's a different story.

John
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 19, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
how about voting for a H2o pipeline to California from the Midwest.


next war is going to be over water
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 19, 2014 - 03:01pm PT

how about voting for a H2o pipeline to California from the Midwest.

 check one of my recent posts on the fracking thread for an idea of the quality you can expect from the midwest...


crankster

Trad climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 19, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
The Republicans are going to throw an epic hissy fit instead of simply enacting immigration legislation.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 19, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
They's gonna go all Bundy Ranch if Obama tries to give any freedom to them Mexicans!

 reminds me, how do you turn a bunch of really strong, manly-men and women into whinny, snively little children real quick.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

What Would Ronny Do?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
Register them Republican?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 19, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
Gary! It ain't always that easy to Register Republican in the ruarl west. Even old white guys can have trouble.

Idaho went to a “closed primary” system a couple years back, where only registered members of a political party could vote for candidates in their party primary.

It seemed prudent to join ranks with Idaho’s Republicans, who dominate our “Red-State” politics. Then, I could always vote for the most horrible candidate in contested Republican primaries, with the (usually forlorn) hope that a Democrat might win in the fall elections.

My more paranoid side also thought it might be good to be a registered Republican, for when they decide to send those from other parties off to concentration camps, sometime in a dark future.

I walked into the rural county courthouse office, where I could register my chosen political party, smiled brightly at the obese woman behind the counter, and in my best Central-Idaho dialect proclaimed: “I’d like to register as a Republican!” It sounds like: “eyed lykke to regster Repubcan!”

She eyed me with obvious suspicion and replied; “you have a lot of teeth for a Repubcan, yere age.”

I leaned forward, gave her a big yellow smile, and said: "I‘ve been lucky with my teeth, but I’m missing five of them."

Everything else went smoothly.

“Ahmm Darn glad to be “a Repubcan!”

“Goddamn Liberals!”
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
Doesn't it make more sense to vote for the best Democrat - if you want to see the Democrats win - than to vote for the worst Republican?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
Fritz, California went to an open primary. The result is that in the general election you only have two choices: Dem or Repub. This blows, IMO.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Chaz! a good question!

Doesn't it make more sense to vote for the best Democrat - if you want to see the Democrats win - than to vote for the worst Republican?


Except! "Them damn Democrats never win an lection in Idontno!"

We are the most Repubcan state!
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
It seemed prudent to join ranks with Idaho’s Republican’s, who dominate our “Red-State” politics. Then, I could always vote for the most horrible candidate in contested Republican primaries, with the (usually forlorn) hope that a Democrat might win in the fall elections.

exactly what I do, Fritz

I am a Registered Republican also, and I vote in their Primaries for the proper candidate.....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 19, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
Gary! Re your comment:

Fritz, California went to an open primary. The result is that in the general election you only have two choices: Dem or Repub. This blows, IMO.


If you think so.

I don't remember folks that are not Repubcan or Democrats winning elections for offices that matter, in contested races in Idontno, now that it has a closed primary, or back when it had an open primary.

For that matter, I don't remember any independents winning national elections, although Ralph Nader running, certainly "screwed the pooch" for Al Gore in the 2000 presidential election.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
Democrats have seen the law and the Constitution as just minor impediments to the accumulation of power since their inception with Andrew Jackson and Worcester vs. Georgia.

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/government-politics/worcester-v-georgia-1832

"The decision of the supreme court has fell still born, and they find that it cannot coerce Georgia to yield to its mandate."
.

They have presented us with another tyrant that pisses on the Constitution.




Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
dirtbag wrote:
Jesus Larry, were you even paying attention last year?
Well, it coulda been I was living my life somewhere, don't remember exactly.

It was killed by right wingers, who completely abdicated their responsibility to govern by refusing to even discuss the issue.
Kinda like the 300 plus bills passed by the House that Harry Reid won't even allow a vote on in the Senate? Both parties, eh?

If immigration reform is so urgent, why wasn't anything done when the democrats controlled all of Congress and the Executive branch? Whats wrong with just enforcing the laws already on the books? Not a rhetorical question, what is the argument to not enforcing the existing laws? Don't good fences make good neighbors? Lots of people waiting in line to legally live and work in this country. We could increase legal immigration numbers, but the illegal immigration issue just seems politicized on all sides with little civil discourse.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
If immigration reform is so urgent, why wasn't anything done when the democrats controlled all of Congress and the Executive branch

the "Democrats" never, ever, had control of congress

for roughly less than 40 days they had 58 Dems in the Senate, not the 60 needed to pass legislation that the Republicans filibustered

what they get done in that short period of time was to get the two Independent Senators to join with them to get to 60 and get healthcare passed along with the Lilly Equal Pay for Women legislations

damn good work in a very short period of time
-----


regarding immigration, the Senate DID pass, because yes it IS that important, with enough Republicans joining in, a comprehensive Immigration Legislation that cleans up everything, but the Republican Speaker of the House, John Boehner, still to this day refuses to allow it to come up for a full vote before the House, because he knows there IS enough votes for it to become law
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
http://redalertpolitics.com/2014/11/18/msnbc-host-cant-find-single-democrat-washington-say-obamas-amnesty-plan-legal/#YKxHhXaiWPETh4fF.99
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
oh yeah, one more thing,,,,,

you know all those bills that the Republican House passed and sent over to Harry Reid in the Senate?

a majority of them had to do with defunding, voiding, the healthcare bill

you damn right Harry Reid was not going to do the Republican Party's job for them

get serious, get specific, know the details, prior to criticizing.....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
Norton loves tyrants.


MSNBC Host: I can’t find ‘a single Democrat in Washington’ to say if Obama’s amnesty plan is legal
By Ashley Dobson | November 18, 2014 | Comments
Image via Screenshot

Image via Screenshot

For once it’s not just Republicans questioning the legality of President Obama’s executive actions.

MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell discussed Obama’s upcoming executive action on immigration reform with Rep. Peter Welch (D – Vt.) and tried to find some sort of way to justify Obama’s promise of amnesty and work visas. Unfortunately for him, no such legal reasoning exists yet.

“No one at the White House has been able to give me the legal justification for the following component of the president’s plan,” O’Donnell said, going on to explain the specifics of it. “…What is the legal justification for the president to create a new category of beneficiaries for work documents? How can that be done without legislation?”

Welch not only said that he didn’t know, but that he didn’t care to know. But this is hardly surprising given the recent urging of Democrats for Obama to bypass Congress on this issue.

“Lawrence, I can’t tell you, and I’m not the lawyer who’s going to be litigating this case,” Welch said. “So the answer to that would be decided by the courts, as you and I know.”

O’Donnell didn’t let him get away with that answer and pushed again.

“I don’t mean to badger you about this, but I’ve been on this for days now,” O’Donnell said. “I haven’t found a single elected Democrat, not one Democrat in Washington who can answer the question that I just put to you. Have you heard it answered by any Democrats?”

“I haven’t. I haven’t,” Welch responded.

Watch the clip below:

Read more at http://redalertpolitics.com/2014/11/18/msnbc-host-cant-find-single-democrat-washington-say-obamas-amnesty-plan-legal/#d8lFP7TmrhESomZk.99

crankster

Trad climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:31pm PT

Nov 19, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
They have presented us with another tyrant that pisses on the Constitution.

Fox News/Rightwing lunacy. Red Alert Politics?? Ha!! Now it's clear.

If the righties are upset you can be sure something good happened for the country (or is about to).
I think they're just upset they didn't get their ebola crisis.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
Norton wrote:
you damn right Harry Reid was not going to do the Republican Party's job for them
As well he shouldn't. He is an advocate for his democrat constituents.
Just as the right wingers are for their constituents. Just sayin.

Obviously I am not a policy wonk...I might even be one of those voters Professor Gruber (sp?) was talking about.
Judging by the hyperbole, straw man arguments, and ad hominems dropped on this thread, I figured an average intellect like mine could waltz in here and sound OK.
I see politics as religion minus the biblical ethical codes.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
I don't remember folks that are not Repubcan or Democrats winning elections for offices that matter, in contested races in Idontno, now that it has a closed primary, or back when it had an open primary.

For that matter, I don't remember any independents winning national elections, although Ralph Nader running, certainly "screwed the pooch" for Al Gore in the 2000 presidential election.

Better to vote for what you want and not get it, than to vote for what you don't want and get it. Besides, Sanders is an Independent, for example.

Debs never won a presidential election, but he was getting so many votes, even after they threw him in prison for making a speech, that FDR was forced to adopt some of his proposals in the New Deal.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
Kinda like the 300 plus bills passed by the House that Harry Reid won't even allow a vote on in the Senate? Both parties, eh?

Larry, don't believe everything Hannity tells you. More fake outrage. Read.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/11/07/are-300-house-bills-really-bottled-up-in-the-senate/

In any event, Bump found that this Congress has introduced fewer bills than most past Congresses and put far fewer in front of the president to sign.

The Pinocchio Test

This is one of these “facts” that is sorely lacking context. While some 300 bills have passed the House and failed to pass the Senate, there is nothing unusual or unique about this. As Bump put it, “when it comes to House legislation that the Senate is ignoring, it’s the same as it ever was. Republicans earn Two Pinocchios for this claim.”
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 19, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
Crankster wrote:
Larry, don't believe everything Hannity tells you. Read.
I have no TV feeds into my house, but I do watch Netflix sometimes.

dirtbag wrote:
It was killed by right wingers, who completely abdicated their responsibility to govern by refusing to even discuss the issue.
So according to Crankster's link, it wasn't killed by right wingers, it was just business as usual?
I will remain a bemused observer.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 19, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
Kiss their rings Werner?

The knee pads they are wearing indicate they're way past that.


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2014 - 10:30pm PT
No Larry, you are not an observer. Again, as Norton said, and as I said, immigration reform died in the Republican controlled house, without discussion. It is simply not true that both parties are responsible.

If you didn't "observe" that last year then you were asleep.

If you choose not to learn about it then you are ignorant.

In this case, at least, your "both parties do it" mantra is, to be blunt, simplistic, untrue, ignorant horsesh#t. Get educated.


Edit: you actually sound a lot like Lois.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 05:08am PT
dirtbag wrote: Edit: you actually sound a lot like Lois.

Unfamiliar with Lois, but judging by your pseudonym, she probably dresses better than both of us.

Edit: because current immigration laws are not enforced, I blame both parties.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 20, 2014 - 05:41am PT
Republicans support NSA spying on citizens:
WASHINGTON--Legislation to keep most Americans' phone records out of government hands was defeated in the Senate on Tuesday, dooming at least for now prospects of national security reforms that supporters said would protect the privacy of law-abiding citizens.

A motion failed to get the necessary 60 votes needed to cut off debate on the bill sponsored by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), with most Republicans voting against. The final vote was 58 in favor to 42 against.

One of its most outspoken foes was incoming Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), who said stopping the National Security Agency from collecting telephone dialing records "would end one of our nation's critical capabilities to gather significant intelligence on terrorist threats."

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 20, 2014 - 06:48am PT
I think most national level elections are effectively rigged. Choice A vs Choice B has been vetted by big business, big politics, big military and big money. Our votes are not much different than a once-candidate communist party vote. A show, an expensive show, and mostly pretense at democracy that no longer truly exists.

We don't have politics, we have elections.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 20, 2014 - 07:11am PT
Kos, the differences are minor. The differences are over tactics, not strategy. It's all about politics.

The Republicans were all for Romneycare, after all they designed it. Then it became Obamacare so they had to come out against it.

During the election that put Raygun in power the Republicans bashed the Democrats for running deficits. The Democrats said deficits were good.

The Raygun blew deficits through the roof and suddenly the Republicans said deficits didn't matter and Democrats said deficits were bad.

Is net neutrality a major issue? We never talk about the big issues. Just as Sanders stated:
“The biggest issue in the country is that we don't discuss the biggest issue in the country,” Sanders told me in his Senate office last week.

“How does it happen that today the economists tell us that 95% of all new income created in America goes to the top 1%? How does it happen that we have by far the most unequal distribution of wealth and income of any major country on Earth, where one family, the Walton family of Wal-Mart, owns more wealth than the bottom 40% of the American people? How does that happen, and what do we do about it?”
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 20, 2014 - 08:13am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 I think the republicans got hard over this guy, tossed their loads, and have been in a P.O.D. of decision making ever since.

I know that Ron Reagan's compassion was completely fake, what with Ronnie being a classically trained actor and all, but much like anyone in this life... they have their moments when they are completely believable.



kos edit
Funny how nobody wants to talk about Net Neutrality, on the internet.

 I much prefer the idea of getting facts and call to my senator/congress personnel... I'm not convinced of either avenue being effective for changing anything about the power dynamic (I still have little to no power to effect anything...

Not to mention... where have you been looking to find nobody talking about net neutrality?

Its here too.. I mean its been discussed here....

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/9873757f97/porn-star-net-neutrality
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 20, 2014 - 08:32am PT
I just don't get the "illegal" label that the Repugs are trying to pin on this.

I see the Constitution as giving the President unlimited power to pardon, and I believe that there have been multiple court decisions upholding that. It is in black and white.

But if not,

Does that mean that Ford did something illegal when he conditionally gave amnesty to draft dodgers? Carter when he did it unconditionally? Should we arrest them all? (I say start with Dick Cheney!)

Does that mean that Obama is actually a slave, because Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was illegal?

Truman acted illegally when he eliminated segregation in the military?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 20, 2014 - 08:47am PT
After Ford left the White House in 1977, the former President privately justified his pardon of Nixon by carrying in his wallet a portion of the text of Burdick v. United States, a 1915 U.S. Supreme Court decision which stated that a pardon indicated a presumption of guilt, and that acceptance of a pardon was tantamount to a confession of that guilt.[67]

In 2001, the John F. Kennedy Library Foundation awarded the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award to Ford for his pardon of Nixon.[68] In presenting the award to Ford, Senator Ted Kennedy said that he had initially been opposed to the pardon of Nixon, but later stated that history had proved Ford to have made the correct decision
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 20, 2014 - 08:47am PT
Does that mean that Ford did something illegal when he conditionally gave amnesty to draft dodgers? Carter when he did it unconditionally? Should we arrest them all? (I say start with Dick Cheney!)

Does that mean that Obama is actually a slave, because Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was illegal?

Truman acted illegally when he eliminated segregation in the military?

 Yes, Ken M.

If their only concern is to paint a picture of their opponent as negative, then this is what they would do. It never matters what it is, it never matters what happened yesterday, it doesn't matter what they wrote, or said or did... long as the negative stays on the opponent... the world is good for the repub jive
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 20, 2014 - 09:13am PT
Not only are the repubs complete hypocritical on the immigration issues...

But when I review their party platform from the last presidential election era... and I lay out what the republican ideas were, as they were spelled out by themselves, and hold they overlay over what they have done over the last 6 years... I'm appalled that anyone would ever consider themselves a card carrying member of the republican party...

just seems disingenuous to me.
(opps Edit)
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=101961

Looking at the boldly worded headlines on this page and ask yourself what any republican has done toward this goal...


2012 Republican Party Platform
August 27, 2012
Campaign 2012

The American Presidency Project

Promote Your Page Too
We Believe in America: 2012 REPUBLICAN PLATFORM

This platform is dedicated with appreciation and reverence for:

The wisdom of the Framers
of the United States Constitution,
who gave us a Republic,
as Benjamin Franklin cautioned,
if we can keep it.

[Paid for by the Committee on Arrangements for the 2012 Republican National Convention Not Authorized By Any Candidate Or Candidate's Committee www.gopconvention2012.com]


American Exceptionalism

Restoring the American Dream: Rebuilding the Economy and Creating Jobs

Job Creation: Getting Americans Back to Work - Have repubs done anything toward this end?

Small Business and Entrepreneurship
Tax Relief to Grow the Economy and Create Jobs
American Competitiveness in a Global Economy - how have they improved your competitiveness today?
Fundamental Tax Principles - about the only thing repubs can focus on... for the rich... not for me.
Reining in Out-of-Control Spending, Balancing the Budget, and Ensuring Sound Monetary Policy - has a republican balanced a budget.
Balancing the Budget - look at that... they repeat it... but what have they done towards this end?
Inflation and the Federal Reserve - have you repubs heard anything on this lately?
Ending the Housing Crisis and Expanding Opportunities for Homeownership - haven't the repubs led the charge on kicking people out of their homes with their economic decisions and constant drum-beat of "law and order" and continue to choose profit over people every day.
Rebuilding Homeownership - have the repubs done anything towards this end?
Infrastructure: Building the Future - I haven't checked, what have they re-built again?
A Twenty-First Century Workforce - except that they have been on a 30 war on education... and they are winning fr the most part...
Freedom in the Workplace - this feels more like freedom from the workplace with all the layoffs since the 80's.
Defending Marriage Against An Activist Judiciary - ah, doesn't this sort of count as a huge loss at this point? Hasn't the republican party really failed to keep marriage between men and women only? Well, doesn't that clearly show that they have failed and that we should get rid of them for this fundamental failure.
A Sacred Contract: Defense of Marriage - failed.
Living Within Our Means: A Constitutional Budget - again, I haven't heard anything from the repugs on the budget. While at the same time they continue to push for more guns, more wars, more enforcement of the willy-nilly


Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 09:15am PT
Dirtbag, Norton, Crankster,
Here is a link that supports my contention that the whole political class in Washington DC is rotten to the core. 60 Minutes did a segment on this book a few years ago. Your religious leaders in the democrat party may even be worse than the leaders in the republican party. Be careful about preaching sermons on behalf of the unethical priests in DC.

The full story of the inside game in Washington shows how the permanent political class enriches itself at the expense of the rest of us. Insider trading is illegal on Wall Street, yet it is routine among members of Congress. Normal individuals cannot get in on IPOs at the asking price, but politicians do so routinely. The Obama administration has been able to funnel hundreds of millions of dollars to its supporters, ensuring yet more campaign donations. An entire class of investors now makes all of its profits based on influence and access in Washington.

http://www.amazon.com/Throw-Them-All-Out-Politicians/dp/0547573146

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 10:09am PT
This is a fictional story a friend emailed, I don't know who originated it, but I thought all would appreciate the humor.


Canadians: “Build a Damn Fence!”

From The Manitoba Herald , Canada ; “Reported” by Clive Runnels

The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration. The recent actions of the Tea Party, and the fact Republicans won the Senate, are prompting an exodus among left-leaning citizens who fear they’ll soon be required to hunt, pray, and agree with Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck.

Canadian border farmers say it’s not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animalrights activists, and Unitarians crossing their fields at night.

“I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn,” said Southern Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. The producer was cold, exhausted, and hungry. He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn’t have any, he left before I even got a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?”

In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences, but the liberals scaled them. He then installed loudspeakers that blared Rush Limbaugh across the fields. “Not real effective,” he said. “The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much that they wouldn’t give any milk.”

Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, and drive them across the border, where they are simply left to fend for themselves. “A lot of these people are not prepared for our rugged conditions,” an Ontario border patrolman said. “I found one carload without a single bottle of imported drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though.” When liberals are caught, they’re sent back across the border, often wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about plans being made to build re-education camps where liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR races.

In recent days, liberals have turned to ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have been disguised as senior citizens taking a bus trip to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching half-a-dozen young vegans in powdered wig disguises, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed seniorcitizens about Perry Como and Rosemary Clooney to prove that they were alive in the ’50s. “If they can’t identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we become very suspicious about their age,” an official said.

Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating an organicbroccoli shortage and are renting all the Michael Moore movies. “I really feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can’t support them,” an Ottawa resident said. “How many arthistory majors does one country need?”

In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice President Biden met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals. A source close to President Obama said, “We’re going to have some Paul McCartney and Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might even put some endangered species on postage stamps. The President is determined to reach out,” he said.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 20, 2014 - 10:09am PT
Does that mean that Obama is actually a slave, because Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was illegal?

No, Obama can't be a slave because he was born in Kenya and the British outlawed slavery there in 1833.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 20, 2014 - 10:24am PT
Norton, I agree that both Reagan and G.H.W. Bush acted on their own, but it was in furtherance of, rather than in defiance of, Congressional action. I hope I'm wrong, but what I've heard about the President's anticipated amnesty would defy Congressional action (or inaction), and makes those romored actions a threat to the concept of separation of powers.

In my opinion, though, the result is a big "so what?" Was the Administration intending -- or even able - to deport five million people here illegally? While politically provocative, the practical effect on a temporary basis is zero.

It should be entertaining, if nothing else, to see the reaction. The best comment I've heard thus far comes from Trey Gowdy. When asked if impeachment would be appropriate, his response was "Have you met Joe Biden?"

John
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 10:34am PT
John,
LMAO on the comment from Trey Gowdy.
I think you may be right that the executive order itself probably won't have much immediate effect.
All for show, Styrofoam columns all the way down.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 20, 2014 - 10:37am PT
JE wrote: It should be entertaining, if nothing else, to see the reaction. The best comment I've heard thus far comes from Trey Gowdy. When asked if impeachment would be appropriate, his response was "Have you met Joe Biden?"



That is all the republicans can do, sue or impeach, they don't know to govern.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 10:55am PT
Bob D'A wrote:
That is all the republicans can do, sue or impeach, they don't know to govern.

That may or may not be true, but I would add that those who govern least, govern best.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Nov 20, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
but I would add that those who govern least, govern best

Yeah? Ask the people in that Texas fertilizer plant town that blew up how they feel about your little "govern least" maxim there.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 20, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
That may or may not be true, but I would add that those who govern least, govern best.

yes, very old, and trite, cliche

perhaps better to say the vast majority of Americans want their government to govern both as efficiently and as effectively as possible, with the only bone of contention being personal preferences for the definition of "effectively"

very often "governing least" means ignoring opportunities to equalize justice "for all"
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
those who govern least,
Larry, that pretty much sums up the Republican Party and is the biggest problem we face.

On your other point, the "political class" is 100% corrupt; that's a broad overreach. The "throw them all out" mentality makes little sense. There are some very good people in congress.

And who are you going to replace them with? Where are these superior beings? Once they get elected they are in your "political class" and you want to throw them all out!
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
Republican inaction...500+ days and counting. Enough.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 20, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 20, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 20, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 20, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
what did the President say about that girl that was impeachable, Sully?

maybe he lied because she also was wearing some shoes he did not mention?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
Norton wrote:
perhaps better to say the vast majority of Americans want their government to govern both as efficiently and as effectively as possible, with the only bone of contention being personal preferences for the definition of "effectively"
That is well put. I think most of us want very similar things for our families, friends and society, just different ways to get there. Most of my closest friends don't agree with my views, but we realize opposing views make many good points.


Crankster wrote:
that's a broad overreach. The "throw them all out" mentality makes little sense. There are some very good people in congress.
That is also a good point. I believe the there are many men of character in both parties, but way too many self-serving narcissists in both parties. 60 minutes did a segment on the book and roasted many of both parties. My focus is on DC governing less. The more power concentrated in DC, the more corruption will result.

As we come upon an infamous date, remember that John F Kennedy once said as a young Senator:
“The ever expanding power of the federal government, the absorption of many of the functions that states and cities once considered to be the responsibilities of their own, must now be a source of concern to all those who believe as did the Irish Patriot, Henry Grattan: ‘Control over local affairs is the essence of liberty.’”
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
Let's just go on the premise that if members of an extreme anti-government milita, like Rifleman Ron, have their panties in a twist something very good must have happened.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 21, 2014 - 06:30am PT
from george will: the tyranny of liberalism

It is as remarkable as it is repulsive, the ingenuity with which the Obama administration uses the regulatory state’s intricacies to advance progressivism’s project of breaking nongovernmental institutions to government’s saddle. Eager to sacrifice low-income children to please teachers unions, the Justice Department wants to destroy Wisconsin’s school choice program. Feigning concern about access for disabled children, the department aims to handicap all disadvantaged children by denying their parents access to school choices of the sort affluent government lawyers enjoy.

The Justice Department’s perverse but impeccably progressive theory can be called “osmotic transfer.” It is called this by the Wisconsin Institute for Law & Liberty (WILL), which is defending Wisconsin children against Washington’s aggression. The department’s theory is: Contact between a private institution and government, however indirect or attenuated the contact, can permeate the private institution with public aspects, transferring to it, as if by osmosis, the attributes of a government appendage.

Wisconsin’s school choice program was pioneered by an American hero, Mississippi-born Annette Polly Williams, who died Nov. 9 at age 77. During her three decades in Wisconsin’s legislature, she overcame the opposition of fellow Democrats to offering education choices to low-income parents. At the end of her life, however, she saw an African American attorney general, serving an African American president, employing tortured legal reasoning in an attempt to bankrupt private schools that enlarge the education options of disadvantaged children.

Children are accepted for the choice schools randomly, and no child accepted by the lottery can be rejected by a school until its capacity is filled. The parents of admitted children are informed by the private schools — about 85 percent of them religious — if the schools cannot afford to offer to those with disabilities as rich a menu of services for the disabled as government schools offer. If the parents consider this unacceptable, they can return to public schools. Tony Evers, superintendent of Wisconsin’s Department of Public Instruction, fully shares the public education establishment’s hostility to school choice, but he acknowledged in 2011 that his agency had never received a complaint from parents alleging discrimination against a child with a disability.
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Nevertheless, the Justice Department suggests that the choice schools discriminate because they do not do something they do not have the resources to do. That is, they do not offer the panoply of services that public schools, with ample state and federal funding, offer to children with special needs.

With sanctimony commensurate with their hypocrisy, school choice opponents borrow language from the era of Brown v. Board of Education to accuse Wisconsin of sanctioning a “dual school system.” The federal government is attempting to order the state to require the choice schools to choose between the impossible and the fatal — between offering services they cannot afford or leaving the voucher program.

Closing the voucher program is the obvious objective of the teachers unions and hence of the Obama administration. Herding children from the choice schools back into government schools would swell the ranks of unionized teachers, whose union dues fund the Democratic Party as it professes devotion to “diversity” and the downtrodden.

The Supreme Court has held that commandeering state officials to enforce federal laws is unconstitutional. This, however, is the least of the Justice Department’s departures from the rule of law.

Religious schools are exempt from certain requirements of the Americans With Disabilities Act. And the ADA section that Washington is commanding the DPI to enforce against the choice schools applies only to “public entities.” Undaunted by inconvenient law, federal lawyers argue that because public funds, in the form of tuition vouchers empowering parents to make choices, flow to private schools, the schools become “public entities.”
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 21, 2014 - 06:49am PT
^^^ th(at) guy (up there) is on crack... ^^^

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 21, 2014 - 06:52am PT
In real world legal circles there is little doubt Obama's action is not illegal or unconstitutional. But don't let that stop the hissy fits.

The Republicans are coming unglued because they know the nut case house of representatives will NEVER pass a bill that has a chance of becoming law.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 21, 2014 - 06:54am PT
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 21, 2014 - 06:56am PT
Ha, ha! right on cue, the cackling hens in the rightwing henhouse are upset!!

Love it. They watch their impotent masters sit on their hands for years, doing nothing but spewing rhetoric. They don't recognize action, it's been so long since they've seen it.

Impeach away! Let the lawsuit's begin!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 21, 2014 - 07:11am PT
Yes, they should learn English right away, immediately even. After all, it only took three generations for my German family to start speaking English part-time, and four generations to be English only.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2014 - 07:18am PT
Please tell us more about your home country of Assholistan, Tioga. We lowly Americans need something to aspire to. Please enlighten us about this great countryman of yours:


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 21, 2014 - 07:59am PT
Just plain old dumb asses.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 21, 2014 - 10:49am PT
Big news...republican house members to sue Obama.

TGT...you forgot to add these kings. Must be a white thing.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 21, 2014 - 11:10am PT
Sketch wrote: No one cares, Bob.


Nice of you to speak for everyone.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 21, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
Those were dunce-caps not crowns...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 21, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 do any of you republicacks have this as your running orders?

more of the usual do nothing republican congress
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 21, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
but he was not elected by a mandate!

yeah, he was

by over 100 electoral votes, yes a modern day electoral landslide

and by well over 5 million popular votes

so, yes the only half white born in Kenya Muslim, well, absolutely kicked both McCain and Romney

but back to what is important.....um.....tax cuts?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 21, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
Dave wrote: Lightweights wouldn't make it fifteen minutes on Fox


Heavyweights would not make it pass fifteen minutes on that station. :-)
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 21, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
Bad day for Republicans...no coherent response to the president on immigration and a Republican-led House panel report on Benghazi debunks most of their overhyped case.

Washington (CNN) -- An investigative report prepared by the House Intelligence Committee finds little to support questions raised about CIA actions on the ground in Benghazi, Libya, the night of a deadly 2012 attack on the U.S. diplomatic compound.
Read the full report
The report, from Chairman Mike Rogers, R-Michigan, and ranking member Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger, D-Maryland, concludes there was no intelligence failure prior to the attack, no stand-down order to CIA operatives trying to go assist at the besieged consular building, and found conflicting intelligence in the wake of the attack about the motive and cause, which were reflected in early public comments by the administration.
But the investigation also found the security at the diplomatic outpost was weak and also described a "flawed" process used to create talking points for House members and also then-U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice, whose public statements after the attack incensed critics who said the administration was avoiding calling the attack terrorism.
Fast Facts: Benghazi attack
The report attempts to knock down other accusations about the Benghazi incident and aftermath, finding no evidence of CIA employees being intimidated from testifying and also no indication the CIA presence in Benghazi was partially to secretly ship arms from Libya to Syria.
The September 11, 2012, attack left U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens, Sean Smith, Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods dead, and immediately sparked controversy, with Republicans accusing the Obama administration of mishandling the attack and manipulating the talking points used to discuss it for political reasons.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 21, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
Republicans.

Party of Obstruction & Obfuscation.


If they had anything of political value to the American People, you bet yer arse they'd throw it forward to get back in power.

They got NUTHIN'.

The GOP political strategy during the Obama years?

Obstruct, Obfuscate, Instill Fear...and now:

Impeach.


Just like Clinton all over again.

These guys are a bunch of granny queefs.
WBraun

climber
Nov 21, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
Stoopid politards the criminals of modern mankind ......Yes YOU ^^^^
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 21, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
If Obama was Pinocchio his nose would be six feet long. I wonder how it feels to all the LEGAL immigrants who wait for the green light to move here.?

It's a signal :) Take all you can, milk it while you can and take it offshore. Cause the boat is going down--history always repeats itself. They're trying to add voters while making the place more of a criminal ghetto--aren't you enjoying this? You should. Unless you're a "professional" with university degree, I hope you speak Spanish. 5 millions in the welfare office line, soon...plus, each will bring 10 more, for the next amnesty. Disability checks :)) they got their lawyers and their people in the offices, who help them through :)) bingo! SSI check ~900$ a month...plus food stamps + working under the table, plus dealing drugs from section 8 housing -- here you go :)

Of course, it was all ok when Saint Ronald did exactly the same thing.

and if it doesn't just lie about it. They are not eligible for welfare. They are not eligible for disability (SSI) They are not eligible for food stamps.

So, I guess you have nothing against the President's action!!!!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 21, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 21, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
Republicans, dumb as dirt, keep up the good work taking all those federal dollars.


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 22, 2014 - 07:47am PT
Come on, righties, let's talk about Benghazi!!!!

WASHINGTON (AP) — A two-year investigation by the Republican-controlled House Intelligence Committee has found that the CIA and the military acted properly in responding to the 2012 attack on a U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, and asserted no wrongdoing by Obama administration appointees.

Debunking a series of persistent allegations hinting at dark conspiracies, the investigation determined that there was no intelligence failure, no delay in sending a CIA rescue team, no missed opportunity for a military rescue, and no evidence the CIA was covertly shipping arms from Libya to Syria.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 22, 2014 - 07:53am PT
Obama is ruining the presidency. Doesn't he know he is supposed to drive the economy into the ground, start useless wars that kill hundreds of thousands people, make wild false allegations about national tragedies and basically do nothing to address and pressing issues? Impeach the bastard!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 22, 2014 - 07:54am PT
Come on, righties, let's talk about Benghazi!!!!

WASHINGTON (AP) — A two-year investigation by the Republican-controlled House Intelligence Committee has found that the CIA and the military acted properly in responding to the 2012 attack on a U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, and asserted no wrongdoing by Obama administration appointees.

Debunking a series of persistent allegations hinting at dark conspiracies, the investigation determined that there was no intelligence failure, no delay in sending a CIA rescue team, no missed opportunity for a military rescue, and no evidence the CIA was covertly shipping arms from Libya to Syria.

 I think it would be more useful to keep pointing out the utter waste of time and money on a pointless political showboat the republicans forced taxpayers to build for them...

Just because you think that American people are stupid doesn't mean 'you' have to act the part... but that seems to be what republicans do best... just act the part...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 22, 2014 - 08:15am PT
All these fruit loop cranknutcases have is to live under Obama's desk wearing out their knee pads waiting for the witch Hitlery.

 where do you think of this valuable opinofactoid?

and where do you feel you fit into your imaginary world....?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 22, 2014 - 09:11am PT
republicNS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS are just shills...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
Sketch likes Warren?

Odd.

Unless...he likes her in the same way he'd like Nader in the 2000 debacle...

Yeah, that makes more sense.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 22, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
It must be great to have Alzheimer's like you, TGT...makes anything old & tired (like that^^^) seem like brand new!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
Isnt TGT's cartoon amazingly new & innovative, Cheef? Betcha never seen anything like it, huh?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 22, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
Thus you would not be able to see what impact the new 5 Million plus legalized low budget laborers will have on the minimum wage system here in the US.

 So, you already know the impact...? days after an announcement by the president of the united states?

Are you that Carnac dude?
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Republitards can't understand the idea of net neutrality... or just want to otherwise control the internet...

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/9873757f97/porn-star-net-neutrality?utm_campaign=newsletter20141120&utm_content=most_popular&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=fd
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 22, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
They are wrong on most things.

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/11/22/3596042/republican-benghazi-debunks/


crankster

Trad climber
Nov 22, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
It has to do with taking steps to solve a problem the Republicans are ignoring.

Read and learn.
Three critical elements of the President’s executive actions are:

Cracking Down on Illegal Immigration at the Border: The President’s actions increase the chances that anyone attempting to cross the border illegally will be caught and sent back. Continuing the surge of resources that effectively reduced the number of unaccompanied children crossing the border illegally this summer, the President’s actions will also centralize border security command-and-control to continue to crack down on illegal immigration.

Deporting Felons, Not Families: The President’s actions focus on the deportation of people who threaten national security and public safety. He has directed immigration enforcement to place anyone suspected of terrorism, violent criminals, gang members, and recent border crossers at the top of the deportation priority list.

Accountability – Criminal Background Checks and Taxes: The President is also acting to hold accountable those undocumented immigrants who have lived in the US for more than five years and are parents of U.S. citizens or Lawful Permanent Residents. By registering and passing criminal and national security background checks, millions of undocumented immigrants will start paying their fair share of taxes and temporarily stay in the U.S. without fear of deportation for three years at a time.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
"The DEMS did absolutely NOTHING concerning this issue for two whole years when they owned DC and the government."


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2014 - 10:51pm PT
That was a brilliant retort back when we were in second grade, wasn't it, Cheef?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
You are true moron, Cheef. Buh-bye!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 23, 2014 - 07:50am PT
The more you write, the less you say.

 are you trying to convey the less is more mentality?



It's gonna take so much more....

once a pointless troll, always a pointless troll.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 23, 2014 - 09:15am PT
It's times like these that I miss Hedge.

This is interesting, especially considering the source of the article being reviewed:

GOP Columnist: The VERY Bad News FOR THE GOP in the GOP's Midterm Victory
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 23, 2014 - 09:44am PT
"They did NOTHING on Immigration Reform for over 18 months. Your DEMS and the EMPEROR."


Dumbass forgot they were cleaning up from the latest and greatest recession cause by the idiots he admires so greatly.


Over 700,000 jobs a months loss, two unpaid wars and a almost total meltdown of the economy during Obama's first year and the chaffer think he should have passed immigration reform.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 23, 2014 - 10:09am PT
It will be interesting to see how reform plays out...Seems like many of the Illegals in town here work under the table with no taxes being taken out...What's going to happen to their pay when their employer has to pay workers comp , payroll tax , and unemployment insurance..? The cheap labor aspect will quickly disappear and their previously un-taxed pay check will likely shrink..? How much is it going to cost the tax payers to administer the registration of 5 million illegals...? Is it really cheap labor and are we re-inventing the wheel with this dime waiting on a nickel scenario..?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 23, 2014 - 10:14am PT
Let the brown people stay. We need someone to mow our lawns, make our beds and clean out bedpans.

Ever met a brown person cracker? as per usual. you empty your bedpan every time you post.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 23, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Let's move on from the Stump's ^^^ nonsense..

RJ, the system is broken, right? Needs to be fixed, right? Not going to deport millions of people, right? Republicans sitting around with their fingers up their ass, right? Ok, so now, after going through legal hoops there is a way an estimated 3-5 million can stay here with their families. Pay taxes. Smart, that president of ours..

"By registering and passing criminal and national security background checks, millions of undocumented immigrants will start paying their fair share of taxes and temporarily stay in the U.S. without fear of deportation for three years at a time," the White House release said.
If undocumented immigrants submit to these background checks, register with the government, pay fees and show they have a child born in the U.S., then they "will have the opportunity to request temporary relief from deportation and work authorization for three years at a time."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 23, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
Oh, Ass. You never tell us about your home country Assholistan, Tioga. We're all eager to hear about Assholistan and some of your countrymen, such as this fine fellow:

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
"They did NOTHING on Immigration Reform for over 18 months. Your DEMS and the EMPEROR."


Dumbass forgot they were cleaning up from the latest and greatest recession cause by the idiots he admires so greatly.


Over 700,000 jobs a months loss, two unpaid wars and a almost total meltdown of the economy during Obama's first year and the chaffer think he should have passed immigration reform.


Bob nails it again.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
No, Tioga, I just imagine how wonderful Assholistan must be. Glorious, I'm sure!

Please share. We're all envious, and wish we could defect to Assholistan. Please, please share!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
If USA (God Bless) and California are crap, then Assholistan , even though the former commie leaders lost the Cold War, must be amazing. Please tell us, what's it like? Is it true Assholistani womyn have litters? That's impressive. Babies: little miracles. Even if they can't speak English.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
^^^Assholistanis?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
You're good people Tioga. I hope more Assholistanis like you shake off their blues about losing the Cold War and come here to freedomland.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 23, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Sketch wrote: What legislation was passed during the periods when Democrats had 60 votes in the Senate? Specifically, what legislation was passed that lacked any Republican support?

Healthcare.


Short memory??

"What this shows is is that there were only two time periods during the 111th Congress when the Democrats had a 60 seat majority:
From July 7. 2009 (when Al Franken was officially seated as the Senator from Minnesota after the last of Norm Coleman’s challenges came to an end) to August 25, 2009 (when Ted Kennedy died, although Kennedy’s illness had kept him from voting for several weeks before that date at least); and
From September 25, 2009 (when Paul Kirk was appointed to replace Kennedy) to February 4, 2010 (when Scott Brown took office after defeating Martha Coakley);
For one day in September 2009, Republicans lacked 40 votes due to the resignation of Mel Martinez, who was replaced the next day by George LeMieux
So, to the extent there was a filibuster proof majority in the Senate it lasted during two brief periods which lasted for a total of just over five months when counted altogether (and Congress was in its traditional summer recess for most of the July-August 2009 time frame).
It’s important to keep this fact in mind when discussing what could have happened in the 111th Congress



I expect the chaffer to be dumbed down to really low levels of fact denial, but you Sketch?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 23, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
name the dates when there were 60 Democrats in the Senate in recent history, Sketch?

from when to when were there 60?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 23, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
Kos...Come out of your cave...Quit trying to solve Sketches problems...Just listen...Sketch just wants to be heard and validated...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
...and a happy ending.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 23, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Shist!

Do you have any idea how much you folks have read like a 6th grade shouting match for the last two days?

Review your fuking posts!

Lest I sound like a certain, well-known Yosemite-based curmudgeon: I do believe many of you are capable of a higher level of arguement.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 23, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
//name the dates when there were 60 Democrats in the Senate in recent history, Sketch?

from when to when were there 60?
//

//Jan'75 - Jan'79

But I wouldn't consider that recent history.
//
correct answer, Sketch

you just proved yourself wrong when you stated the Dems had complete Senate control under Obama and could "only pass the ACA"

do you have any idea of how factually ignorant you really are?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
Oh heavens no, Norton. I'm sure in a few minutes he will put your post in some kind of quote and think of a snarky little point about it.

In the meantime, he's still licking his butthurt about what rottingjohnny and I wrote.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 23, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Poor sketch is having one of those days...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 23, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
look @ sketchy and chef, vying for the lowest common denominator.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 23, 2014 - 08:31pm PT


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 23, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
LMAO..
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 23, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Those Choss Creekians know how to party...And the boulder " idol " worshipping takes the cake...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 23, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
The Cheef morons on the East Side are even worse.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 23, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
^^^^
See what I mean?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 23, 2014 - 10:30pm PT
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2014 - 07:26am PT
blue tide rising...

watch red fall flat for the next two years

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2014 - 07:44am PT
the win goes to?????

locker!!!!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 24, 2014 - 08:09am PT
Yet, here we are.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 24, 2014 - 09:11am PT
barry, of course: overreaching executive power for me, but not for thee


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf0dBCveWUk



i'd vote for ted cruz just for the pleasure of watching him troll libs with his "pen and a phone" attitude of executive power...for starters, stop all prosecution of people who refuse to pay taxes (any guesses on how many libs would continue to give their money to the gov?)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 09:23am PT
dirtbag

climber

Aug 3, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
HEY RIGHT WINGERS...


Where is your outrage over a recent war started by a republican administration...you know...the guys you voted for TWICE...

that was started under FALSE PRETENSES, gross INCOMPETENCE, and outright LIES...

and that killed OVER 1000 TIMES MORE AMERICANS than the four killed in Benghazi?

If you are not seething in anger over that war...

And if you are not DEMANDING CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATIONS into the incompetence and outright lies leading to that debacle...


Then SHUT THE F$#K UP, you miserable HYPOCRITES!
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 09:32am PT
OK, a fresh week, let's see what the ST righties have come up with for specific Republican policy proposals they support:

stop all prosecution of people who refuse to pay taxes
Hmmm, that's pretty nutty.

Republicans currently hold the governorship and both houses of the legislature in 23 states, while Democrats have that level of control in only seven."
OK, yes, we know that...re-stating the obvious. How about a follow up with some ideas?

LIBS legalized skank weed
yeah, we know what The Stump thinks...oh, man, gonna be a long week.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2014 - 10:05am PT
just heard a list of a bunch of the bills that got passed during the 70+ days the dems had control of sh#t all while cleaning up after baby bush and his frat house friends...


pretty impressive...

Repubs would never put so many humanity into law.. they can only hinder, block and stall progress...


repubs they are pathetic.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 24, 2014 - 10:20am PT
Sketch...are you really that helpless??

http://ofdw.org/blog/?viewDetailed=00000
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Unfortunately, what I wrote a year ago is still true, Apogee.

And lookie, Butthurt is butthurt again. So Kos is, by Butthurt's definition, a "stalker." Too friggin' funny.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 11:12am PT
That quote will last the ages, dirt.

And will never receive a direct response from anyone who considers themselves a 'Republican'.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 11:20am PT
"Play ball or I'll go around you".


Ummm...isn't that pretty much what Obama has done here?

He put this issue to Congress repeatedly...that they should address the issue & take action...and (the Republican) Congress (especially) didn't do jackshit about it.

So he's going around them. So what?

And if a future POTUS doesn't like it, they can repeal it in a heartbeat. If the new Republican Congress doesn't like it, they can create new laws to override it.

Pretty much puts the fire under the feet of the new Republican Congress, donchathink?


Edit: '...reveling in last year's butthurt."

You don't have any friends or family that were directly affected by the Iraq war, do you, Sketch?

To refer to that debacle as 'last year's butthurt' is unbelievably callous to those families & friends whose lives were destroyed or forever changed by that disaster.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
What is disingenuous, Sketch, is 'shrill' ranting & raving about Benghazi, or virtually any other action Obama has taken, in comparison to the Party that literally destroyed the lives of thousands of Americans, then left power with the economy a smouldering disaster.

Nothing that has happened in the last 6 years comes close to that kind of mess. Whining about Obama's recent 'Executive Action' is just pathetic, in comparison.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 24, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
Let us clarify.....

over a year ago the Democrats in the Senate passed a very comprehensive Immigration bill
and sent it over to the Republican House where Speaker Boehner has refused to allow it to be
put to a vote for fear of it being passed and becoming law

for those one or two here who seem to live and breathe every post to criticize, consider yourselves
now educated to put the "blame" that you delight in leveling, squaring on the people you vote for

clear now?

=requests for Sketch..

let us hear you relentlessly criticize the Republicans for having the Presidency, House, and Senate for six straight years from 2000-2006, for failing to pass Immigration or Healthcare

surely you are not going to say that they were too busy watching the economy go into Recession?

just to show you are capable of unbiased analysis, Sketch, let's read your criticisms
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Just keep your ranting in perspective, eh, Sketchster?

To repeat:

"Play ball or I'll go around you".


Ummm...isn't that pretty much what Obama has done here?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
Stalker! Lol.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 24, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
What is disingenuous, Sketch, is 'shrill' ranting & raving about Benghazi, or virtually any other action Obama has taken, in comparison to the Party that literally destroyed the lives of thousands of Americans, then left power with the economy a smouldering disaster. [emphasis in original]


With all due respect, apogee, the identity of the political party that literally destroyed the lives of thousands of Americans is, to put it mildly, subject to debate. (well, except that whichever party ousted its opponents may have "ruined" the lives of the oustees). The housing bubble and its bursting had bipartisan roots, but Mssrs. Dodd and Frank were more than a little responsible for continuing to prop up housing years after more foresighted voices were pointing out the danger.

I would also note that the real economic troubles started after the Democrats regained control of Congress. But all that takes away from the all or nothing sort of analysis that contemporary American political entertainment demands.

On a rather different note, it saddens me to see personal squabbles again, puarticularly since Dave Kos has generally provided some of the most balanced and insightful commentary here, and Sketch has not exactly been a one-party shill, either. I enjoy the presence of both of you enough to hurt when either attacks the other.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 24, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
If you are trying to flatter me, John, that really fell short.

Big time.


LOL! No, I'm not trying to flatter anyone. I'm telling you that I think quite highly of your opinions expressed on ST. OK, part of my high opinion of you is that you actually read my posts (as shown by the quote above) and respond to what I say, but I really do value what you have to say, so I don't like seeing you personally attacked.

John
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 24, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
can't wait for repubs and dems to come up with some infrastructure solutions!
we'll see what happens!!!
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Nov 24, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Because it wins them elections.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
Yes, Rude Pundit, yes.
11/21/2014

Things That Wouldn't and Won't Happen in the Wake of President Obama's Immigration Action:
Last night, President Barack Obama announced a compassionate, legitimate executive action for undocumented immigrants in the United States. Predictably, as happens when any politician acts to take care of the poor and dis-empowered, Republicans lost their f***ing minds or were just lost and confused, predicting all sorts of doom for the future for Obama. Please, bitches. Stop being such obvious liars.

1. Republicans were never going to pass immigration reform. It wasn't going to happen. They had a chance to pass the Senate bill, which had megabucks for "border security," but House Speaker John Boehner, fearing the base of his party, wasn't ever going to vote on it, nor a future bill unless it's a bullsh**, worthless one.

2. On NPR yesterday, Rep. Tom Cole, an Oklahoma Republican, made all kinds of possible threats. Again, f*ing please. Cole said that Republicans, when they run the Senate, might not approve of any of Obama's nominees for anything. Motherer, Republicans blocked most of that when they were the minority. What do you think was gonna happen now? They were never gonna approve sh.

3. South Carolina's Jeff Duncan said that the Republicans could force Obama to veto spending bills (and somehow convince people that Obama shutdown the government). If immigration was not an issue, Republicans would threaten a shutdown over something else. It's not your regular tactic.

4. Texas Senator John Cornyn said that Obama "poisoned the well" for cooperation. Man, you bastards poured arsenic into that thing in 2009. Stop acting like your best buddy betrayed you. Stop acting like, if Obama hadn't done this, it was gonna be two years of grab-ass and giggles between the President and Congress.

5. As far as what won't happen, the House might impeach Obama, sure. But they won't get him out of office. You're not gonna arrest him, and you're not gonna successfully sue him. What the GOP is gonna do is figure out how the hell to save face with Latinos while keeping the crazies who vote in the primaries satisfied. So that probably means huffing and puffing and not doing a goddamn thing.

6. By the way, as far as prosecutorial discretion goes, most Republicans sure weren't upset when the Justice Department didn't pursue charges against Wall Street investors and bankers who nearly tanked the economy. That was f***ing amnesty. This is a simple, humane act. It's not being dicks, something the right just can't imagine.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 24, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
I would also note that the real economic troubles started after the Democrats regained control of Congress.

Sorry JE,I do not buy any of that.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
^^^^
It's so hard to ignore & deny that kind of reality.

Unless you are a Republican.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 24, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
obama numbers look like french flag!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 24, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
I do not care about his approval rating.

There are alot of folks like yourself that would not be happy with him no matter what he does.

Those are real economic numbers that tell THE whole story.


Sorry you do not like HIM.

It is something that he is more fiscally conservative than any of YOUR selfish friends.

Continue with your spray.

No wonder you are on the dole.

DENIER OF FACT

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
Cheef, you are a raving idiot with reading comprehension issues.

wilbeer's graphic says nothing about 'job approval ratings'.

You are f*#king head injured. Or stupid. Or just plain idiotic.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 24, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
KISS MY ASS
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 24, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
Yeah ,right,everyone of you ,libertarians, that did not vote for Bush ,blame it all on the Democrat congress.

Read my last post.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 24, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
You didn't call anyone on anything, you goddam moron.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 24, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
Wilbeer's post is true and anyone that doesn't believe it can do their own research.

It ain't a popularity contest, it's an economy: stupids!

I've enjoyed the best income years of my life during the Obama presidency.

Here's Wilbeer's post again, for the short-term memory impaired folks on this thread.

crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 08:57pm PT

Nov 24, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
Toooooooooo funneeeeee!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 24, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
hilarious actually...


cool stump.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
Oh man, more gloating.
What are you going to do now??????
What's the plan????
Where are the ideas?????
All you have is this stupid rhetoric, Stump???
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
When you answer why that is even remotely relevant.
If you knew anything about politics you'd know the answer.

Still struggling with your party's grand plan, huh?
Thought so. So are they. The silence is deafening.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 24, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
of course I remember when "da-chief" would post the same photo over and over again, because it helped to make his point.

What pointless points he posted, are lost.

Here is Wilbeers!


crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
Keep it up!
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
No ideas, huh, Stump?
When you get done gloating in a year or so try to come up with an answer to the question....what is your party going to do now?
That Benghazi circus left town.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
Stump, you like debating a child. It's not a fair fight.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 25, 2014 - 06:16am PT
Atta boy, Sketchy. Pull for the President of the United States to fail.
But the [psitive trend is set there, pal. All the Fox watching in the world isn't going to change it.

Take all the above good news and the Benghazi Hoax debunked and here's what the Republicans will be eating on Thanksgiving...

crankster

Trad climber
Nov 25, 2014 - 07:50am PT
Pointing out that a bipartisan committee debunked Benghazi is a childish insult? Just separating fact from fiction.

What's the bet...you think all the above stated positive trends will reverse in the next 2 years?
Hmmm, the Repub's will be in charge....can they screw up the progress (intentionally) so they have a shot at the white house? Like you, they love bad news for the country.

Nah, I'll pass. You throw your hat in the ring with a presidential candidate, I'll take Hillary, then we'll talk.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 25, 2014 - 08:34am PT
Sketch

Trad climber
Hey Y'all

Nov 24, 2014 - 10:17am PT
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there

Nov 24, 2014 - 10:05am PT
just heard a list of a bunch of the bills that got passed during the 70+ days the dems had control of sh#t all while cleaning up after baby bush and his frat house friends...

pretty impressive...

A bunch? No kidding? Care to tell us about them? Not many. Just 4 or 5... other than the ACA.

And how'd you come up with 70+ days?

7/7/09 - 8/25/09 and 9/25/09 - 2/2/10 = 70+

 
72 legislative days between the time Frank was sworn in and Dems had filibuster proof senate and when Scott Brown was sworn in to break the filibuster proof of the senate…

Largest middle class tax cuts in history
Saved Chrysler and General Motors
Stopped 800K jobs from leaving the country
Increased education spending
Cut student loan costs
Strengthened hate crimes
The Affordable Care Act
Child Health Insurance expansion
Child Labor Laws
Wall Street Reform
Dodd/Frank
Credit Card Reform
Predatory Lending to soldiers was restricted
Troops started getting paid for stop loss time - Bush was robbing them
Stopped torture
Increased spending on the VA
Equal pay for women
Nuclear arms reduction
20 Billion proposed to be paid by the polluters British Petroleum for a clean up fund
EPA strengthened
FDA powers broadened
911 responders (who bush couldn’t be bothered with) got funding so they would stop dying at the rate that they were dying…
(someone else researched list)

no… you are right…

both on the days thing and the improvements made during the days thing...



Compared to the do nothing congress we've had ever since...




apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 25, 2014 - 08:49am PT
tioga got the boot?

crankster

Trad climber
Nov 25, 2014 - 08:54am PT
What a load of bs.

The truth is you extremists, Stump, have scared off the moderates in your party with your bullying screeching.

You are ruining the country.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 25, 2014 - 09:39am PT
Are you saying those laws were passed during the 72 days the Dems had a filibuster-proof majority?

the Dems did not have the ability to pass legislation for 72 days, we have been through this

but to refresh please read this link, modify your analysis, apologize and change your attitude

http://sandiegofreepress.org/2012/09/the-myth-of-the-filibuster-proof-democratic-senate/
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 25, 2014 - 10:21am PT
What's missing, Sketchy, really missing, I mean, really, really absent from any of your cut & paste baloney is this: You can not point to any reason to elect a Republican. You can't name any policy initiative they currently offer that you support - and provide any correlative evidence that it could work.

Try this, Mr. Wager...throw out your person right now, right now, as in now, that you would like to see as president. While you're at it, throw in 1 or 2 policies that that person supports that make sense to you...give it a go.

Any other righties out there are free to join in....c'mon, the '16 presidential election has practically started. Your gang is jockeying for position - pick a horse and let's start looking at their record.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 25, 2014 - 11:38am PT
It was alleged above that the Democrats simultaneously accomplished "the largest middle class tax cuts in history" and the passage of the Affordable Care Act. Not mentioned was that the ACA amounts to the largest middle class tax increase in American history outside of WWII.

Also, the "before and after" chart compares points, not trajectories. The criticism of Obamanomics centers on the weakness of the recovery, not its absence. Simple passage of time would have increased GDP and national employment far more than we experienced, but for the Administration's open hostility to private sector prosperity of its non-cronies.

John
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 25, 2014 - 11:56am PT
Simple passage of time would have increased GDP and national employment far more than we experienced,

What a whopper...you know what "would have happened".

As for your other Fox News lie...
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/biggest-tax-increase-in-history/
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 25, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
JohnE...really with the tax hike???


http://www.factcheck.org/2014/04/false-tax-claims/
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Nov 25, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
Doesn't really matter if the admin is R or D. The oil companies, major corporations and billionaires run the country. The Rs just make it a little easier for them.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 25, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
Over simplistic attitudes like this lead to complacency. Did a little deeper.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 25, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
[quote]What a whopper...you know what "would have happened".

As for your other Fox News lie...
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/biggest-tax-increase-in-history/[/quote]

Competent macroeconomic analysis demonstrates the truth of the first statement. As for the second, Fact Check agreed that in dollars, it was the largest, and Fact Check did not include the "penalties" for failure to procure insurance as part of the "new taxes." Those "penalties," of course, form the basis of the taxation that the SCOTUS used to justify the constitutionality of the ACA.

John
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 25, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
macroeconomic analysis demonstrates the truth
Reaching hard...the prez gets no credit, it's all math. :(
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 25, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
Yeah right. I wish I was "middle class" enough for it have raised my taxes.

yes, me too

I believe the additional tax to help fund the ACA is only on adjusted gross incomes over $250,000
and only the specific amount over 250K

but you can look it up, this once I am not going to bother to look it up, just to be in keeping with
most everyone else who makes up their own facts and then repeats them often so they become true
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 25, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
So the tax on "Cadillac" plans, not to mention the "tax" on those without health insurance, not to mention the increased cost of health insurance, doesn't exist. I get it now.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 25, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
John...lies, here is the big whopper.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-wars-in-afghanistan-iraq-to-cost-6-trillion/5350789


4-6 Trillion, now that is real tax dollars.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 25, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-22/no-congress-since-1960s-makes-most-laws-for-americans-as-111th.html


From the above link..."“This is probably the most productive session of Congress since at least the ‘60s,” said Alan Brinkley, a historian at New York’s Columbia University. “It’s all the more impressive given how polarized the Congress has been.”


Sketch wrote: You guys keep producing lists and links for legislation passed during the 111th Congress, but not for the 72 day period.


What is your point??
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 25, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
We are not laughing with you,but ,We are laughing.

Saying something about somebody sitting on the internet all day,is,

Just Classic.

What have the Republicans done right?

Let us know,be constuctive,you know....

edit:You guys lost some quality there with Tioga gone.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 25, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
Man,I would love to see a good Dr.F rant right here.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Nov 25, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
Hey Chief, your sounding like your a little Sketch.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 26, 2014 - 05:51am PT
What happened republican pukes?

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Just for the republitarded among you still looking
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 26, 2014 - 05:53am PT
Jingy, you'll have to wait until after 9am when Rush comes on the air. Then there'll be a new load of BS to address.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 26, 2014 - 06:38am PT
Sketch wrote: It's funny (and sad) that none of you seem to know what the Dems accomplished in the face of full GOP opposition.


We do know and we posted it as the republicans opposed most if not all of what the democrats bought to the floor.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 26, 2014 - 06:41am PT
Agree, DMT. Firing Line was great, even though I disagreed with Buckley 98% of the time. Buckley would be turning over in his grave watching the brainless lunacy on Fox.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 27, 2014 - 12:12am PT
There HAS to be an intelligent conservative out there.
What happened to them

Buckley's hand picked successor is David Brooks. He voted for Obama at least once.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 27, 2014 - 12:19am PT
So, here we are two years out from the 2016 election.

I'm thinking Hillary on the dem side,

But WHO on the rep?

Bush
Romney
Cruz
Paul
Christie

seem to be the first line. Those who come after generate a "who?" There first job is to get name recognition among repubs. (national not important, yet) they have to be in the media----every day. I don't see ANY of them showing up.

Do the conservatives have any insight?

I don't think Cruz can rise above the citizenship issue, or Paul above the Crazy issue. Christie has not risen above the bridge, although he is trying. Romney seems damaged goods, and Bush seems ok, but he has not faced the Tea Party wackos.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 27, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
Here is an article from James Petras on alternative media and the ripple affect Russian sanctions are having across Europe with nowhere to sell their produce.

From Stagnation to Recession from Sanctions to Depression

Across Europe, without exception, recession stalks the economies. The dominant countries, Germany, France and Italy are mired in recession, acutely exacerbated by the sanctions against Russia dictated from Washington. From Nordic Finland, passing through the Baltic States to Central and Southern Europe, the Eurozone ‘recovery’ is ‘kaput’! The ‘triple whammy’ of capitalist disinvestment, economic sanctions and wars has provoked a deepening economic crisis.

Germany: Regime ‘Lick-Spittle’ Scares Industry and Financial Sectors

The German financial market’s confidence is collapsing as a result of Chancellor Merkel’s support for economic sanctions against Russia and President Putin’s reciprocal response. Several hundred thousand German industrial jobs are at risk; imports of Russian oil and gas are in danger; large-scale, long-term German investments and lucrative export markets are at stake. These fears and uncertainties have led to declining investment and an unprecedented negative growth of 0.2% in the German economy in the second quarter of 2014. The recession in Germany ripples throughout Europe – especially affecting Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Southern Europe.
To read entire article please visit.
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1999

Here is a video of Farmers in Europe not knowing what to do with their crops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMbcJWP4Lg0

Here is a video of Spanish Farmers burning the EU flag over a pile of peaches. other videos dumping potatoes or Merkel being booed during public speeches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VdMwZn4-5A

More quote from Petras article.
No European country can benefit from embracing the failed regime in Kiev. . . Ukraine’s currency is in free-fall – ranking below soiled toilet paper. Its major industries, totally dependent on trade with Russia, are bankrupt or have been bombed by the NATO-putsch regime in Kiev. Its agricultural exports are devastated. Meanwhile Ukrainian families are advised to chop their own wood or dig their own coal in anticipation of a winter totally cut off from Russian gas because the oligarchs in Kiev have been unable or unwilling to pay the huge energy debt. . For their staunch support of this bankrupt regime, ruled by a ‘Billionaire Oligarch’ in Kiev, for upholding the ‘principles’ so lauded by Finnish President Stubbs, one million European farmers will bury their own apples, pour their own milk in the streets and dump their grapes, oranges and tomatoes in rotting heaps. . . And this is so their leaders, Obama, Cameron, Merkel and Hollande can uphold their real ‘principles’ of territorial expansion, extend their military operations to the borders with Russia and posture as warriors while destroying their countries productive economies, bankrupting their farmers and manufacturers, driving millions more into unemployment and deepening the pains of recession.

Ukraine will join a growing list of countries, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen, that Washington and NATO have “saved” (to paraphrase an American general) . . . by being destroyed
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 27, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
The Chief posted
Just reiterating the facts Crackstar. The fact that your party is lazy and doesn't even get off their azzes to vote. Yet will get together and protest white cops slaughtering unarmed black men at an alarming rate.

Quoted for inanity.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 28, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
Petras sounds like an ardent communist, bent on supporting Mother Russia. He doesn't talk at all about the effects of all this on Russia, and that FACT that they started it all, through their invasion of another country.

And what is the alternative? Turn over your territory to Russia? What part of the US will we turn over to Russia to obtain better trading conditions?

I vote Texas.
crankster

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2014 - 09:34am PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/11/28/why-the-supreme-court-should-be-the-biggest-issue-of-the-2016-campaign/

Hillary or Chris...pretty easy choice.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 29, 2014 - 10:29am PT
That article is the crux of the matter. The Supreme Court has power that can be very long lasting.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 29, 2014 - 10:41am PT
"John Boehner had over 500 days to pass the common-sense immigration bill passed by the Senate. He Failed."

Yes, yes, yes.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Still waiting on the bills that were passed "in the 70+ days when the Dems had control of sh#tall".

Why is it that you guys insist on someone finding you easily found information as if it didn't exist at all? Do you not understand the internet?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 29, 2014 - 10:58am PT
"John Boehner had over 500 days to pass the common-sense immigration bill passed by the Senate. He Failed."

Let's be clear & honest, though. He didn't 'fail'.

There was never any intention of attempting it in the first place.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 29, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-mcmanus-column-corruption-20141130-column.html

Great article on the ruinous effect of corruption on national security
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 29, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
Another view on Death Penalty:

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_r_dow_lessons_from_death_row_inmates#t-39109
redrocks

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Nov 29, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
If Dems can keep the presidency, ginsburg might stay on. Otherwise, surely she will retire ahead of the election. A couple of years ago I saw an article that calculated the chance that all 5 conservatives would outlast Obama was only 1 in 3. Odds must be higher now, but still, no way can they all hang on when Hillary wins in 2 yrs.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 29, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Could not agree more DMT.


So,what have you republicans done right?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2014 - 12:57am PT
Brilliant articulation from Moundhouse, NV.

Translation: we got nuthin'.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 30, 2014 - 08:25pm PT


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 3, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
Now that they've found their brains, it looks like there'll be 100 fewer Republican voters in Texas.
The case of the missing 100 brains in Texas has been solved, officials said on Wednesday. And, no, this is not a joke.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-missing-brains-found-in-texas-20141203-story.html
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 4, 2014 - 10:41am PT
hopenchange:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4257dbf203464696be117fe66de661e4/healthcaregov-average-premiums-going-2015


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 4, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
^^
Many people covered under President Barack Obama's health care law will face higher premiums next year, the administration acknowledged Thursday. While the average increases are modest, it's more fodder for the nation's political battles over health care.

OMG!!!!11111 Health insurance premiums have NEVER increased before! Damn that Obama!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 4, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
Yeah, but GAS prices are DOWN!

How the hell you gonna spin that, booky?
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 4, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
Here's a link to a long & interesting N.Y. Times article on how the Republicans now control almost all the southern states:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/demise-of-the-southern-democrat-is-now-nearly-complete/ar-BBglyRv

The article also explains how Southern Democrats became Republicans between 1947 and now.

One quote from the article:

What is clear is that today’s Southern Democrats are no match for today’s racial and political polarization. Last month, strong Democratic Senate candidates — with recognizable political family names, the benefits of incumbency and, in some cases, flawed opponents — lost across the region. They struggled to run more than a couple of points ahead of Mr. Obama.

Of course------it isn't just about racisim. SNORT!
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 5, 2014 - 05:41am PT
U.S. Payrolls in November Grew 321,000; Jobless Rate 5.8%
Economy on Track to Record Strongest Year of Job Creation in 15 Years
By BEN LEUBSDORF And ERIC MORATH
WASHINGTON—U.S. employers ramped up hiring last month, continuing a stretch of robust payroll gains and keeping the economy on track to record its strongest year of job creation in 15 years.

Wall Street Journal, righties.....thank you, Mr. President!!!!!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2014 - 08:11am PT
^^^wow, Obama must really suck. It's a good thing republicans are coming in to change things.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 5, 2014 - 11:41am PT
Meet the new boss, same as the old bass. Well, maybe a lot smarter.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Dec 5, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
President Obama is 'keeping more troops temporarily... in Afghanistan next year too.

good
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 5, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
DMT wrote: President Obama is starting a new war in Iraq.


Really...when did the first one end, oh "Mission Accomplished". :-)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 5, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
Well, maybe a lot smarter."

And capable of accurate enunciation of the English language.

'Nuclear'
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Here ya go Crankcase,

only 4000 jobs

You want fries with that?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102243878
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 5, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
Cragman..you do understand the deficit has gone down under Obama?

crankster

Trad climber
Dec 5, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
Soaring stock market, declining unemployment, job growth the best in years...$2.69/gal gas; c'mon righties, turn off that damn Fox and smell the roses!! What a dreary lot you are.

By NELSON D. SCHWARTZ DEC. 5, 2014 After more than five years of elusive gains, ordinary Americans may finally be about to see the benefits of the recovery where it really counts: in their pocketbooks and wallets.

The Labor Department reported Friday that employers added 321,000 jobs in November — a much stronger number than expected — but perhaps even more significant was the biggest gain in average hourly earnings since June 2013.

Hourly earnings rose by 0.4 percent in November, double what economists had been expecting. That gain in hourly pay was significantly above the measly 0.1 percent increase in October, let alone the unchanged number in September. At the same time, the number of hours worked ticked up by one-tenth, adding to pay envelopes. The pairing of strong hiring and wage gains is a really strong indicator of the health of the economy,” said Tara Sinclair, chief economist at Indeed.com, a leading job search website. “Now, we want to see people coming back into the work force and also finding the right jobs for them in terms of wages, skills, and hours.”[

“In one line: Spectacular and, more to the point, believable,” said Ian Shepherdson, chief economist at Pantheon Macroeconomics. “The key thing if you look at the run over the last few months is that this was a number waiting to happen. We’ve had strong hiring indicators in a number of surveys, and lower jobless claims, so sooner or later, we were going to get a blockbuster number.”

Mr. Shepherdson cautioned that while he was pleased by the stronger hourly wage gain in November, he wanted to see it continue for several months before he would be convinced higher wages were here to stay. “I’ve had my fingers burned before, but the timing of this uptick is consistent with other evidence of economic growth.”

The unemployment rate remained unchanged from last month at 5.8 percent, the Labor Department said Friday.

Government statisticians also revised upward the number of jobs added in September and October by 44,000, another good sign
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 5, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
"Why check the facts when you can just hate"

LOL.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 5, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
Cragman wrote: Obama, in the video, harping on G.W. Bush for running up a 9 trillion dollar debt?

You are clueless.

Maybe if GWB didn't listen to God and start two unpaid wars plus crash the economy too it wouldn't be so high.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 5, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 5, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 5, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
Sad fact is that the right roots for bad news for the country. Fuels the ratings for Fox and the talk yakkers. Good news might put the President of the United States in a good light. And that, they can't accept, such is the level of their hatred and delusion.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 5, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
When financial conservatives decry the budget performance during the Obama years it isn't about hatred, it's about arithmetic.

In the following examples, assume that the relevant GDP is constant at 10 trillion dollars.

Scenario 1: The deficit in six years is $1 million each year except the last, where it is $2 million.

Scenario 2: The deficient is one trillion dollars in each of the first five years, and 300 billion in year six.

Note that in Scenario 1 the deficit increased 100%, but it Scenario 2 it dropped 70%. Would you say budget performance was better in Scenario 2? You would if you contend that, say, the Obama budget performance is better than the Reagan budget performance.

John
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 6, 2014 - 12:03am PT
John, shame on you.

GDP is NOT a constant, as you know. so setting up an artificial comparison that does not exist is intellectually dishonest.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 6, 2014 - 04:13am PT
Yes , it's all about arithmetic...Bushes economic , foreign , and domestic policies bankrupted the country...This is what's known as subtraction...Most of us learned this in kindergarten...
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 08:02am PT
A daily dose of rj always makes me laugh.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 6, 2014 - 08:10am PT
As my mom used to say "no good deed goes unpunished", lower unemployment, lower deficit, higher stock market, health insurance to millions of Americans who couldn't afford it under Obama.


In some strange parallel universe the complete opposite under Bush was better to John E and other.

Really strange.


crankster

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 08:19am PT
When you ask the righties to put forward ANY Republican politician's ideas that they endorse...ANY proposal or policy....all you get is silence.

What is your plan, different from the President's, to defeat ISIS? silence
What is your plan, different from the President's, regarding immigration? silence
What is your plan, different from the President's, to speed job growth? silence
On and on...the answer is the same. silence

The tea party controls the Republican party. They rule by hating government; what's their idea on how to govern? silence

Come January, we get to see them in the spotlight. My guess it's going to be ugly.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 08:26am PT
I am no expert in social or foreign policy, but I have always been interested in how to improve the human condition. I like to throw my opinions into a forum to see how well they may hold up to civil and constructive criticism.
Although I sometimes resort to them, counter points that resort to ad hominems, straw men or hyperbole are intellectually weak and not constructive.
The title of this thread does not imply intellectual discourse, it implies a zealous belief.

when speaking with someone with a different opinion, the goal is not to annihilate one’s intellectual opponent. The goal is get him to understand an alternative perspective. In order for this to be effective, it requires each person to examine their own prior assumptions and listen to their opponent rather than rip them apart.
http://blog.independent.org/2014/12/03/love-liberty-learn-to-argue/#more-27222
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 6, 2014 - 09:14am PT
Larry wrote: I am no expert in social or foreign policy, but I have always been interested in how to improve the human condition.


Maybe we should look at what other civilized first world countries do. It's obvious the current financial, education and healthcare systems are not working.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 09:17am PT
Lotta truth in that Larry. Maybe a thread entitled Share Your Ideas On Improving America.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Dec 6, 2014 - 11:00am PT
^^

explain the consequences of US Debt
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2014 - 11:05am PT
Well, it doesn't matter until it does, but that will only happen when we can't pay the piper, or the Chinese as the case may be.
They won't take yer house from you as long as you make the
payments, either. But that doesn't excuse doing something fundamentally wrong. DMT is
right, it takes two to tango. The Demos love buying those $800 Air Force toilet seats just as
much as their friends across the aisle, just as long as a Demo voter gets to make it.

So wazzup with Obama? A nerdy White Tower elitist for defense secretary? Really?
I will give him the benefit of the doubt for thinking outside the box here, until the dude goes
to Afghanistan and shares some MRE's with the troops.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 6, 2014 - 11:09am PT
explain the consequences of US Debt

We have to pay it off and it means that in the future there will be much less money for us to use to help people....

Obama's blowing up of the debt is extremely irresponsible.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2014 - 11:29am PT
We could pay down the debt without tax increases IF we slashed the Pentagoons.
Luckily, the Millenials haven't gotten off their 'devices' long enough to
find out that they're gonna retire unto poverty so the debt holders are good
for yonks.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 11:54am PT
From the non-partisan CBO...
Options for Reducing the Deficit: 2015 to 2024
November 20, 2014

[url="http://https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/49638-BudgetOptions.pdf"]http://https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/49638-BudgetOptions.pdf[/url]

The Congress faces an array of policy choices as it confronts the prospect of large annual budget deficits and further increases in the already-large government debt that are projected to occur in coming decades under current law. To help inform lawmakers about the budgetary implications of changing federal policies, CBO periodically issues volumes of policy options and their effects on the federal budget, of which this is the most recent. The agency also issues separate reports that present policy options in particular areas.

This document provides estimates of the budgetary savings from 79 options that would decrease federal spending or increase federal revenues over the next decade. The estimates are updates of many of those presented in Options for Reducing the Deficit: 2014 to 2023 (November 2013). The options cover a broad range of areas in the federal budget, including defense, energy, Social Security, health care programs, other benefit programs, and provisions of the tax code. The budgetary effects identified for most of the options span the 10 years from 2015 to 2024 (the period covered by CBO’s baseline budget projections in 2014), although many of the options would have longer-term effects as well. This document presents options in the following categories:

Mandatory spending other than that for health-related programs,
Discretionary spending other than that for health-related programs,
Revenues other than those related to health, and
Health-related programs and revenue provisions.
For each option, this document includes a brief description of the policy involved. For additional information, including discussion of advantages and disadvantages, see the version of that option in the November 2013 volume.

This document also includes an appendix that lists options that CBO has analyzed previously but for which no budgetary estimates are presented. Those options are drawn from two sources. Some were analyzed in the November 2013 volume but would take considerable time to reanalyze; in order to make this document available prior to the beginning of the 114th Congress in January 2015, those estimates were not updated. Others, taken from various reports issued by CBO, were listed in Appendix A of last year’s report.

Certain options from those two sources are omitted from this document’s appendix for one of two reasons. Some have been superseded by subsequent legislation or administrative action. For others, CBO’s previous estimates of budgetary savings are probably no longer useful because of changes that have been made by legislation or administrative action, economic developments, or changes in other aspects of CBO’s analysis.

The options included in this document originally came from a variety of sources. Some are based on proposed legislation or on the budget proposals of various Administrations; others come from Congressional offices or from entities in the federal government or the private sector. As a collection, the options are intended to reflect a range of possibilities, not a ranking of priorities or an exhaustive list. Inclusion or exclusion of any particular option does not imply approval or disapproval by CBO, and the report makes no recommendations.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Dec 6, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
explain the consequences of US Debt

We have to pay it off and it means that in the future there will be much less money for us to use to help people....

no, we certainly do not "have" to pay off the national debt

since our inception we have had debt, and have steadily added to it

just the same as almost all nation/governments on this earth



Obama's blowing up of the debt is extremely irresponsible.

doubly wrong

1) only congress, and especially the House, has the Constitutional authority to "spend" money

2) since 2011 the Republicans have had an overwhelming majority and control the House

everything spent since they took over the House had to be voted on passed by them


3) fact: Republican Administrations are responsible for more of the additions to the National Debt than Democratic ones

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/michaelschaus/2014/12/05/obama-sues-companies-for-complying-with-obamacare-n1927757/page/full
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 6, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
"Well, it doesn't matter until it does, but that will only happen when we can't pay the piper, or the Chinese as the case may be. "


I don't think we owe China as much as some people believe.


The US has had debt from day one.
John M

climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
You do realize that the national debt doubled under Bush. And it tripled under Reagan.

Our current debt level is bad. It needs to be paid down as it is now getting dangerous, but some debt isn't bad. Just like you take on debt to buy a house. Some things need a certain amount of debt. We get into all kinds of trouble when we don't allow any debt. It just that we need to learn to pay off debt during good times.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 6, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
TGT..i thought i saw you 2 fridays ago pedaling on PCH in Seal Beach in oxygen Debt..?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
Bob D'A wrote:
Maybe we should look at what other civilized first world countries do. It's obvious the current financial, education and healthcare systems are not working.

I think that is something everyone on this forum can agree on. I do have some problems with using European countries as a model of success. Culture, demographics and values matter a great deal in the success or failure of social policies. Besides, some European countries are having some difficulty in sustaining their entitlements. You can find those stories with some effort.

So how do we determine what will work and what will not in this country?
To be up front, I am not a democrat or republican. I am a libertarian, so right off the bat I've alienated many. Social policy is not science, as no counter factuals can be disproven. There are natural business cycles outside of decisions made in Washington. Federal Reserve policy affects the economy more than political decisions pandering to interest groups. Partisanship leads to finger pointing and score keeping that obscures real cause and affect.

My belief is that the massive accumilation of power in Washington DC is corrupting in itself. We are not living in a true capitalist society. I believe it is now crony capitalism, and both parties are experts. Small business and the middle class are paying for the utopian dreams, vote buying schemes and fund raising efforts of democrat and republican politicians.

My belief is states rights, the boogy man of the pre-civil rights era. This is a term that is loaded, but I believe we are a different country than we were in 1965. I have seen the change with my own eyes. I am proud that this country elected an African-American as president.

Ending prohibition on marijuana is a states rights issue. That is not an issue I particularly care about, but is only one example.
The war on drugs is 40 years of money down the pisser and non-violent offenders clogging up prisons and empowering the prison guard union.
The war on poverty is 40 years of money down the pisser and creating perverse incentives within our citizenry.
The department of education is money down the pissser as test scores are lower than pre department of education.
The department of energy is money down the pisser with crony deals for companies that fail, but CEO's who get rich.
These policies all certainly work well as "workfare" and crony payoffs, but not much else.

The 50 laborotories of democracy will tell us what works and what doesn't. Local government is what is responsive to the citizens it affects. It will take a while, but the proof is in the pudding, not the partisan talking points.

Now I feel guilty sitting around on a Saturday typing political BS. Out now for the rest of the day.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
some European countries are having some difficulty in sustaining their entitlements.

Some? Why do you think they can't pull out of their recession?
I just spent a month in Italy. The place is falling apart - all their money
goes towards entitlement programs, guvmint salaries and pensions, and, well,
that's about it. They're a heartbeat away from becoming the next Greece.
What is really amazing is that despite all the supposed 'largesse' their
standard of living is way lower than what the statistics indicate because
of the marked north/south divide. Passing through Napoli is a very sobering
experience- the poverty is pervasive and deep. We're headed that way unless
both Dems and Repubs can agree that we're not gonna be the world's policeman
any more and that we don't need to spend untold billions on stooped sh!t
like the F-35 and preparing to go to Mars.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Nope. I was working Friday.

Someone has to carry the load for all them entitled types.

Besides, Seal Beach ain't got no hills. Did 39 to the East fork and GMR Saturday from the house though. Never went anaerobic.

When is Sir Eric going to investigate this bunch?

(don't hold your breath waiting)

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/12/05/st-louis-police-investigating-possible-hate-crime-in-bevo-neighborhood/
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
See any trends here?????

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Dec 6, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
You do realize that the national debt doubled under Bush. And it tripled under Reagan.

but that doesn't count

because they were Republican Presidents and as such get a free pass when spending is the topic

HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 6, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
no, we certainly do not "have" to pay off the national debt

No but if you don't pay it off you have to service it. And that money could be used in better ways such as to help the very people you claim you want to help.

Currently we pay something like 430 billion dollars a year for this debt that you say is no big deal. And, this is with close to zero percent interest rates. http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Dec 6, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
The duck is stuck,
Can only hiccup
The same tired phrase
Over & over
Days upon days
Might be an aneurism is gonna blow soon,
Then we'll see
Just who is the loon
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
Someone didn't take his medication today.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 6, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
John M

climber

Dec 6, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
You do realize that the national debt doubled under Bush. And it tripled under Reagan.

Our current debt level is bad. It needs to be paid down as it is now getting dangerous, but some debt isn't bad. Just like you take on debt to buy a house. Some things need a certain amount of debt. We get into all kinds of trouble when we don't allow any debt. It just that we need to learn to pay off debt during good times.

the first part don't mean a thing to me unless you tell me from where and why?

as to the second, debt to one man is mostly different than debt to another man! For one man's debt is paid in full. Often by handshake. And i'm thinking mostly of the impoverished of the world here. Including children. Since most children have no income, they are the most impoverished. But their day to day lives are lived being free of the feeling of "owing" anything to another man.

Then there are those 2%'s that lead their lives paying the debtor!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2014 - 06:46am PT
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2014 - 06:53am PT
"A Deficit of Dignity": nah, racism has nothing to do with it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/opinion/a-deficit-of-dignity.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 8, 2014 - 05:35am PT
read it (if you dare) and weep:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100260720/whenever-you-mention-fascisms-socialist-roots-left-wingers-become-incandescent-why/

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 08:02am PT
Apologies, I gotta hijack for a moment and throw some newsworthy humor in here...hat tip to late night comedians:

New Jersey Governor Chris Christie was asked about the slow pace of his weight loss and said, quote, 'Rome was not un-built in a day.' In fact, Christie and Rome have a lot in common: one was built by Julius Caesar, and the other was built by LITTLE Caesar.

In a recent interview, Texas Governor Rick Perry revealed that he has spent the last 20 months preparing to run for president. Later, Hillary said, 'Call me when you've spent 67 years.

A recent report says the majority of Americans cannot name the three branches of government — Judicial, Executive, and Legislative. To make it easier, the government is renaming those branches Kim, Khloe, and Kourtney.

The FBI debuted its new facial recognition software which will archive the faces of tens of millions of Americans every day. This groundbreaking, amazing new software is called Facebook.

Google has developed image-recognition software that can accurately capture what’s happening in a photo. But it still has some bugs. It described Kim Kardashian's recent photo as "Woman being chased by two Butterball turkeys."

Charles Manson's future mother-in-law says she approves of her daughter marrying Manson. She said Manson has very nice personalities.
If you're looking to get the Mansons a gift, they're registered at Bloodbath & Beyond.

According to a new estimate, Congress has had a full work week just 14 percent of the time since 1978. Congress said they planned to address the report next week because it's already approaching Tuesday.

China has surpassed the U.S. and now has the No. 1 economy in the world. After hearing this, China's children asked, "So now can we take a lunch break?"

According to a new study, the larger the age difference between married couples, the more likely they are to get a divorce. Or as gold-diggers call that, "the point.”

A couple was recently married on the New York City subway! The couple asked that instead of gifts you send Purell hand sanitizer.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 08:21am PT
Dave Kos wrote:
Only a small part of the increase in deficits can be attributed to Obama's policies.

Dave,
You make some excellent points in your post but I think the quote above is certainly debateable.
I think it was Senator Schumer who recently pointed out that the administration should have first concentrated on jobs rather than other agendas. In addition, unemployment numbers can be deceiving, as the number of Americans working full time is still far less than it should be.

As I understand it, the important figure in deficits, or maybe it's the debt, is as a percentage of GDP. It is curious how deficits 8 and 9 years ago were considered so cataclysmic by some, including President Obama, yet now are considered stimulating by those same folks.
An important point to remember is that interest on the debt right now is incredibly low. When interest gets back to historic norms, the service on the debt will become a far larger share of the annual budget.

IMHO, one legacy of the baby boomers will be how they squandered what was given to them by their parents and now want their kids to fund the rest of their lives.
John M

climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 08:30am PT
It is curious how deficits 8 and 9 years ago were considered so cataclysmic by some, including President Obama, yet now are considered stimulating by those same folks.

Thats because spending helps get one out of a recession. Whereas overspending during a boom is foolish. Booms end. One should save during a boom or at least pay off debt so that debt doesn't become too large during slow downs.

Instead, during the Bush admin we spent like crazy while cutting taxes, creating an even bigger boom, which led to an even bigger bust. Pure foolishness. The national debt doubled under Bush. During a BOOM the debt DOUBLED. Cheney said deficits don't matter. He is a moron. They do matter, but you still have to spend during a recession or you end up deepening or prolonging the recession.

Where the hell were the republicans when Bush doubled the national debt during a boom.? ..They were saying.. oh goody, lower taxes. Oh shoot.. deficits don't matter.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 08:39am PT
Larry, nice comedic interlude!

You are right about debt as a percentage of GDP. If you look at our current public debt as a
percentage of GDP we are middle of the road in the world. If you look at our total gubmint
debt to GDP then we are in a select group with Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Japan, and
Sudan!. That is cause for worry in and of itself.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:27am PT
hopenchange:

http://news.yahoo.com/newly-insured-struggle-primary-physicians-155516875.html


John M

climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:28am PT
^^^ like your party had any answers.. ^^^ hopeless and changeless
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:32am PT
John M, the low-hanging fruit is often rotten and best left alone. The
LA Times, not exactly a Repub mouthpiece, reported 40% of Calis who signed
up for Obamacare are quite unhappy with it.
John M

climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:40am PT
I have no doubt that people are unhappy with it. How many were happy with their previous health insurance?. Or with no insurance? Its not a great plan. But for many.. it is better then nothing. It certainly needs some stuff worked out. But with something this large, what has ever not needed some tweaking after startup. I just hate the disingenuousness of bookwork and those who never look in the mirror. What were they ever offering? nothing..


and yes. he is low hanging fruit.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:56am PT
John, for the record let it be known that I am in favor of a single-payer
system. I realize that is a pipe dream in this country, not because of
intransigent republicans, but because there are too many lawyers.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 8, 2014 - 11:33am PT
read it (if you dare) and weep:

bookworm, if Hitler was such a socialist, why did he send the socialists and the communists to the concentration camps first? If the nazis were such ardent socialists, why did they murder Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemborg?

I eagerly await your reply.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 11:42am PT
IMHO, one legacy of the baby boomers will be how they squandered what was given to them by their parents and now want their kids to fund the rest of their lives.

I, too, don't think history will be particularly kind to our generation. We did some great things, but I suspect later generations will view us as largely selfish and immature.

John
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Gary wrote:
bookworm, if Hitler was such a socialist, why did he send the socialists and the communists to the concentration camps first? If the nazis were such ardent socialists, why did they murder Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemborg?

Maybe Hitler himself could answer some of that.

"I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate to admit. The difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlers and penpushers have timidly begun...I had only to develop logically what Social Democracy repeatedly failed in because of its attempt to realize its evolution within the framework of democracy. National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with the democratic order." -- Hitler to Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pg. 186
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 07:37pm PT

One of these guys will be the Republican nominee in '16. I'd like to hear a rightie make their case...

??
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
One of these guys will be the Republican nominee in '16. I'd like to hear a rightie make their case...

1) They're white.
2) They're male.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 9, 2014 - 12:03am PT
Particularly since Paul is the current poll leader, and best organized for a campaign.

I'm hoping for Ted Cruz.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 9, 2014 - 12:05am PT
But, back to our main topic:

In 1986, the disease afflicted an estimated 3.5 million people a year in 21 countries in Africa and Asia. Today, thanks to the work of The Carter Center and its partners — including the countries themselves — the incidence of Guinea worm has been reduced by more than 99.9 percent to 148 cases in 2013.

Of course, that pales in comparison to the impact of the Reagan Center, the Nixon Center, the Ford Center, the two Bush Centers.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 9, 2014 - 12:06am PT
Do people think that Cruz can overcome the issue of eligibility?

I think it will kill him in the primaries.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 9, 2014 - 07:35am PT
republican $$ boys aren't going to nominate a tea party candidate. Look for a vp pick to throw the crazies a bone.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 9, 2014 - 08:51am PT
http://www.newnownext.com/michigan-house-passed-bill-allowing-emts-to-refuse-treatment-to-gay-people/12/2014/


This is not funny...these whack jobs are trying to set us back a 100 years.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 9, 2014 - 09:29am PT
It will be funny and sad to watch the birthers try to explain why the actual foreign-born candidate is eligible, but the brown-skinned guy with the funny name born in the US was not.

But they will make that argument with a straight face, and they will believe their own words.

I think it will suck a lot of oxygen out of the room, because I think it will become nasty.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 9, 2014 - 09:43am PT
He just has to be a natural born citizen (not born in the U.S.) which is probably the case cause his mom is a U.S citizen (as is Obama's mom- a fact ignored by the birther lunatics). However, it's never been ruled on by the supreme court.

I am sure it would be a huge primary fodder. I bet he was born in a socialist hospital!!!! 111
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 9, 2014 - 09:47am PT
http://benswann.com/corporate-welfare-is-almost-double-social-welfare/


It really is the poor fault...bullsh#t.
John M

climber
Dec 9, 2014 - 10:41am PT
that michigan bill that Bob posted is the reason I'm not for expanded states rights. Some states are full on whack.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 9, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
You are right, Moose, as the report proves.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 9, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
up from 31 percent in 2012.

like the employment rate and jobs numbers.

you're such a Pollyanna...
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 9, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
Not saying it is, but the torture report could be construed as politicians covering their butts after buying into interrogation techniques when it was politically expedient. It could also be construed as a partisan report.
Here is a link to a CIA website that presents the other side of the coin, FWIW:

http://www.ciasavedlives.com/

Astonishingly, the SSCI Majority staff interviewed no CIA officers responsible for establishing, implementing, or evaluating the program’s effectiveness. Let us repeat, no one at the CIA was interviewed.

Having posted all that, I don't know what really happened, I wasn't there.

I will say that in a hypothetical situation where my family's life was in the balance, I would do whatever it takes...after all, moral relativity, existential nihilism and all that, eh?

Maybe we should just execute suspects without trial, by drone...oh wait.

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
The CIA really f*#ked up. Some heads need to roll for this.
Jorroh

climber
Dec 9, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
"Having posted all that, I don't know what really happened, I wasn't there."

Thats strange...ignorance hasn't ever stopped your blabbing in the past.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 9, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Jorroh wrote:
Thats strange...ignorance hasn't ever stopped your blabbing in the past.

Well, I am ignorant of much, but I thought the whole point of this thread was to blab.
I try to keep my blabbing on the philosophical, rather than the ad hominem side. Thanks for the gutcheck blab.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 10, 2014 - 05:29am PT
the latest liberal outrage: "all"

http://www.gazettenet.com/home/14730229-95/after-email-controversy-smith-president-kathleen-mccartney-leads-campus-vigil-over-police-killings-o


winston smith is dead (and he signed a DNR)
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 10, 2014 - 05:56am PT
The CIA is out of control, and not just on torture. It is also often wrong and apparently missed most if not all the major geopolitical events in recent history. Time for major housecleaning if nor dismantling.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2014 - 06:21am PT
We need some intelligence on our enemies.

But I'm beginning to think Dingus is right. Blow it up completely, then reassemble what you need. They are dangerously rogue.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2014 - 06:27am PT
And btw, McCain deserves kudos for speaking out against this sh#t.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2014 - 07:31am PT
Faux News: The torture report was released because Obama hates America, and America is AWESOME.

http://news.yahoo.com/fox-news-host-torture-report-235001597.html

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2014 - 07:33am PT
Spies Like Us


Russia has some a-ok spies too.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 10, 2014 - 07:35am PT
i know this is offered by an evuhl jooooooooohhh, but facts have no bias:


http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2014/12/feinsteins-duplicity-68-people-in.html



winston smith is dead
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2014 - 07:37am PT
Oh, ok Werner.

I think that is the only time I've said anything positive about McCain.

But when he does the right thing, he should be given credit.
WBraun

climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 07:39am PT
McCain shouldn't be given any credit dirtbag.

He's such a traitor, coward and slime ball who'll fuk anyone over.

He's a despicable aszhole ......
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 10, 2014 - 07:40am PT
"Wink, wink, nudge, nudge... say no more."

Run, Sarah, RUN!!!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 10, 2014 - 07:41am PT
libs' moral relativism:

murder 3000 innocent people just trying to make a living or visit grandma, chop off people's heads (including infants), crucify "infidels", mutilate womens' genitals, hang homosexuals?

just opportunities for libs to demonstrate their "tolerance"


splash some water on the murderers, beheaders, crucifiers, mutilators, executioners?

evuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhl!!!

winston smith is dead
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2014 - 07:44am PT
Then you do it, bookworm.

You "splash" yourself with water.

Didn't think so.


But ethics of torture aside, Bookworm...


Are you ok with an agency lying about violations to two branches of government?

Including your man, Bush?

That is the very definition of rogue, and how lawless police states get away with awful sh#t.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 10, 2014 - 07:45am PT
Sarah as POTUS....

Hmmm...

That would make her the very first POTUS-ILF...
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Dec 10, 2014 - 08:01am PT
Per bookie:

yeah, those towel-heads with their unfounded outrage at the loss of tens of thousands of innocents (including women, children & babies) because they just happened to be in close proximity to our "smart bombs" should just shut up & greet us as the liberators we think we are.

We sure as hell don't have any wild-eyed religious zealots in this country trying to force their agenda on the public through threats & acts of violence...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2014 - 08:44am PT
POTUS-ILF

Lol!
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 09:14am PT
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Former Vice-President Dick Cheney on Tuesday called upon the nations of the world to “once and for all ban the despicable and heinous practice of publishing torture reports.”

“Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.”

“The publication of torture reports is a crime against all of us,” he added. “Not just those of us who have tortured in the past, but every one of us who might want to torture in the future.”

Saying that the Senate’s “horrifying publication” had inspired him to act, he vowed, “As long as I have air to breathe, I will do everything in my power to wipe out the scourge of torture reports from the face of the Earth.”

Cheney concluded his statement by calling for an international conference on the issue of torture reports. “I ask all the great nations of the world to stand up, expose the horrible practice of publishing torture reports, and say, ‘This is not who we are,’ ” Cheney said.
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/cheney-calls-international-ban-torture-reports
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 10, 2014 - 09:22am PT
hopenchange:

http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/Proj2013.pdf


http://nypost.com/2014/12/09/still-cooking-the-obamacare-books/


http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/NHE-Fact-Sheet.html


since republicans knew this would happen BEFORE the bill was passed and since ONLY dems voted for the bill, gruber has to be referring to libs when he says people are "stupid"


"we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it"


if you like your bloated, corrupt government, you can keep your bloated, corrupt government. period.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 10, 2014 - 09:27am PT
I regret having to write a piece that is critical of the Democratic members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. Most of them are former colleagues and friends. I hope they will remain friends after reading this.

For eight years I served on this committee. I know how difficult and important the work of providing tough and fair oversight of our nation's $50 billion top-secret intelligence network.

I will wait until I have fully read and considered Tuesday's report to enter the debate over whether the CIA handled interrogation of detainees in an appropriate manner. Thanks to the 2005 and 2006 efforts of Senator John McCain I do not have to wait to be certain our interrogation policies and procedures are aligned with our core values.

I also do not have to wait to know we are fighting a war that is different than any in our country's past. The enemy does not have an easy to identify and analyze military. In the war against global jihadism, human intelligence and interrogation have become more important, and I worry that the partisan nature of this report could make this kind of collection more difficult.

I do not need to read the report to know that the Democratic staff alone wrote it. The Republicans checked out early when they determined that their counterparts started out with the premise that the CIA was guilty and then worked to prove it.

When Congress created the intelligence committees in the 1970's, the purpose was for people's representatives to stand above the fray and render balanced judgments about this most sensitive aspect of national security. This committee departed from that high road and slipped into the same partisan mode that marks most of what happens on Capitol Hill these days.

I have participated in two extensive investigations into intelligence failures, once when Aldrich Ames was discovered to be spying for Russia after he had done substantial damage to our human intelligence collection capability and another following the 9/11 attacks. In both cases we were very critical of the practices of the intelligence agencies. In both cases we avoided partisan pressure to blame the opposing party. In both cases Congress made statutory changes and the agencies changed their policies. It didn't make things perfect, but it did make them better.

In both of these efforts the committee staff examined documents and interviewed all of the individuals involved. The Senate's Intelligence Committee staff chose to interview no one. Their rationale - that some officers were under investigation and could not be made available – is not persuasive. Most officers were never under investigation and for those who were, the process ended by 2012.

Fairness should dictate that the examination of documents alone do not eliminate the need for interviews conducted by the investigators. Isolated emails, memos and transcripts can look much different when there is no context or perspective provided by those who sent, received or recorded them.

It is important for all of us to remember how unprepared we were for the attacks of September 11, 2001 and how unprepared we were to do the things necessary to keep the country from being attacked again. There was no operating manual to guide the choices and decisions made by the men and women in charge of protecting us. I will continue to read the report to learn of the mistakes we apparently made. I do not need to read the report in full to know this: We have not been attacked since and for that I am very grateful.

It is important for all of us to not let Congress dodge responsibility. Congressional oversight of intelligence is notoriously weak. The 9/11 Commission recommended a number of changes in the authorities of Congressional committees but the proposal – advanced by Senator McCain – did not come close to gathering a majority of votes in either the Senate or the House.

The worse consequence of a partisan report can be seen in this disturbing fact: It contains no recommendations. This is perhaps the most significant missed opportunity, because no one would claim the program was perfect or without its problems. But equally, no one with real experience would claim it was the completely ineffective and superfluous effort this report alleges.

Our intelligence personnel – who are once again on the front lines fighting the Islamic State – need recommended guidance from their board of governors: The U.S. Congress. Remarkably this report contains none. I hope – for the sake of our security and our values – Congress will follow the leadership of Senator McCain and give them this guidance.

Bob Kerrey, former governor of Nebraska and U.S. senator, is now the managing director of Allen and Company.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 10, 2014 - 10:45am PT
chris matthews proves old adage about broken clock:

http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/09/matthews-to-joan-walsh-you-must-be-living-in-a-crazy-world-to-think-al-qaida-will-stop-torturing-if-we-do-video/?advD=1248,657753#mnetint


sh*t, aq/taliban didn't even wait for us to start torturing before they started
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 10, 2014 - 10:50am PT
speaking of the jv team:


http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/broadening-the-war-against-isis/383588/


btw, can one of you libs explain why it's ok for barry to assassinate an american citizen (and kill his 16-year-old son) without formal charges, without an indictment, without a trial, and without a conviction but it's not ok for the cia, with CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT, to slap around the guy who admitted he planned the murder of 3000 innocent people?

and by "explain" i don't mean, "because barry"
John M

climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 11:07am PT

http://news.yahoo.com/ex-cia-operative-says-prison-punishment-whistleblowing-torture-183259797--abc-news-topstories.html

http://abcnews.go.com/International/cia-operative-prison-punishment-whistleblowing-torture/story?id=27474359

I"m not saying the Dems weren't complicit to some degree, but congress and the public were lied to about how much torture was happening. Those reports Bookworm lists of who knew about torture being used don't say how much torture. Its one thing to say we tortured ( splashed ) a prime suspect for 35 seconds and he fully spilled the beans on 34 projects, and another to reveal just how much torture was happening. Its all in how you spin it and what facts you leave out. And what out right lies you tell.

For instance, he told ABC News that al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah broke after being water boarded once for less than 35 seconds and began answering “every question” the next day. “The threat information he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks," Kiriakou said.

But later it was revealed Kiriakou was wrong and Zubaydah had been waterboarded 83 times, according to CIA documents released in 2009. Kiriakou later said in a book that the number of waterboarding sessions “rais[ed] questions about how much useful information he actually supplied.”



I can't believe this guy is in jail and the Cheneys of the world walk free
John M

climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 11:20am PT
But its just splashing Dingus..
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 10, 2014 - 11:54am PT
What's always bothered me is the gross exaggeration of the risk from terrorists. The whole middle east sh#t show including 9/11 is a minuscule risk to anyone not there.

Anyone that thinks torture is necessary to keep them safe is a spineless moron.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 10, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
They were lied to" is horsesh#t.

It by "they" you mean the Admnistration (Bush II and Obama) and Congress (Democrats and Republicans) I thoroughly agree. As one CBS reporter put it, the Senate Democrats' CIA report is an attempt to re-write history.

To stir a slightly different pot, at least it appears we were waterboarding our enemies. During the Carter Administration, we were waterboarding our own troops.

John
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
When I see the president referred to as "Barry", I know that something worthless is going to follow. 100% accurate every time.
WBraun

climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
Barry hangs out in a white house playing golf on his days off all while the world goes to to hell.

Good ole Barry .....

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 10, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
And good old Wernie hangs in the valley while the world goes to hell.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
He keeps busy trolling.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Dec 10, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Splash a little water

Anyone who thinks waterboarding is just "splashing a little water" needs to try the following: Lie flat in the bath, take a heavy facecloth, place it on top of your mouth and nose. Slowly pour water onto the cloth. See if you can do this for ten seconds, now imagine you have no control over the process.

Waterboarding is a war crime. We executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding after WW2. How can we possibly claim to be the "good guys" when the President of the United States authorized and continues to condone the torture of prisoners?

TE
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 10, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Dec 10, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
^^^^^
Perfect example of why our once great nation has lost credibility in the world
spectreman

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
Barry just shoots and kills the terrorists with his Drone army. That's much more humane than waterboarding.
Actually I find nothing wrong with using drones to kill those bastards (bastards being the terrorists), but why is killing them considered better than waterboarding. At least when we torture the sons of bitches we get some useful information. How else did Barry hunt down Osama?
spectreman

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Barry said he got Osama. He would never lie to us! LOL
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2014 - 09:37pm PT

Dec 10, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
Barry never ever got Bin laden.

Such stupid bullsh!t lies to mislead the stupid sheep.

Only crankloons and Nortons of America believe such bullsh!t ......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 10, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
We executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding after WW2.

We set the standard.

Personally, I think the psychologists who set this all up and got $81 mill for it ought to be executed.

For those of you who think that torture is no different than outright killing, you have no experience of people who survived torture.

Listen to John McCain, whose boots you are not worthy of licking.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 11, 2014 - 06:06am PT
this one's a tough call...

do i applaud the libs responsible for finally treating all religions with the same contempt typically reserved for christians and joooooooooohhhs?

or

do i condemn the libs responsible for treating all religions with the same contempt typically reserved for christians and joooooooohhhhs?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/10/peru-legal-action-greenpeace-stunt-nazca-lines


oh, the irony...


exit question: why are greenpeacers so racist?

exit question #2: will holder order a federal hate-crime investigation?

exit question #3: if convicted will the libs responsible prefer serving their time in a peruvian prison (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23744778); or would they choose gitmo (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2684941/Life-inside-worlds-notorious-prison-Remarkable-scenes-pictures-reveal-inner-workings-Guantanamo-Bay.html);?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 11, 2014 - 07:04am PT
dems who voted for barrycare protect their own staffers from barrycare:

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/226656-all-senate-gop-staff-going-on-obamacare


"if you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan...if you're a dem staffer. period"


oh, the irony...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 11, 2014 - 07:21am PT
Bookworm is back, ST & and it's users being subjected to torture.
WBraun

climber
Dec 11, 2014 - 10:11am PT
Bookworm is back, ST & and it's users being subjected to torture.

Oh cry us a river.

There's only 3 or 4 people in this lunatic thread ever with the illusion that many are in it.

What's even worst you guys just swim around in the shallow end of the kiddie pool.

No wonder no one likes this stooopid thread ......
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2014 - 10:34am PT
In case anyone is wondering, I did a search of the word "stupid" (w/o alternate spellings) written by Werner. So far, 1434 posts.

Carry on...
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2014 - 12:47pm PT

Dec 11, 2014 - 10:11am PT
Bookworm is back, ST & and it's users being subjected to torture.

Oh cry us a river.

There's only 3 or 4 people in this lunatic thread ever with the illusion that many are in it.

What's even worst you guys just swim around in the shallow end of the kiddie pool.

No wonder no one likes this stooopid thread ......

If you say something stupid in the forest and nobody is listening...did you still say it?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 12, 2014 - 03:34am PT
when ivy leaguers attack!

princeton students seek to end "microaggressions" which are defined as "anything" because...

“there are no objective definitions to words and phrases.”




winston smith is dead
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 12, 2014 - 05:25am PT
according to feminists, denying the "rape culture" is the latest tactic in the "war on women"


enter the newest anti-woman warrior: eric holder

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176

feminists insist 20% of college women are sexually assaulted--more often than the general population; doj claims college women are actually raped less often than the general population


do you think eric holder will order an investigation into eric holder's doj? or will eric holder determine eric holder's doj doesn't need to investigate eric holder's doj because...eric holder
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 12, 2014 - 09:19am PT
they said if i voted for romney a lot of americans would lose their jobs...


they were right:


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/upshot/unemployment-the-vanishing-male-worker-how-america-fell-behind.html?abt=0002&abg=0&_r=2


hopenchange
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 12, 2014 - 09:26am PT
Bookass..did you even read the sh#t you post.

"At the same time, it has become harder for men to find higher-paying jobs. Foreign competition and technological advances have eliminated many of the jobs in which high school graduates like Mr. Walsh once could earn $40 an hour, or more. The poll found that 85 percent of prime-age men without jobs do not have bachelor’s degrees. And 34 percent said they had criminal records, making it hard to find any work."


Of course it is Obama's fault that don't have a higher education and have criminal records and want $40 dollars an hour.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 12, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
Creed Singer Scott Stapp Threatened To Kill Obama, According To Wife's 911 Call
The Huffington Post | By Stephanie Marcus
Posted: 12/12/2014 1:34 pm EST

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/12/scott-stapp-kill-obama_n_6315852.html


What Christianity hath wrought
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 12, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
Here's your modern Republican Party...

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/overheard-anti-obama-rally-hang-him-weve-got-rope


Among the remarks picked up by the cameraman:

“Hang the traitor!”

“Hang the lying Kenyan traitor!”

“We’ve got rope.”

“Plenty of trees in the front yard, wouldn’t be the first one hung on one of them trees.”

“Whatever happened to those good ol’ days?”

“Don’t snap his neck, you watch him choke to death.”

“He’s just biding his time until Satan takes him home to where he belongs.”
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 12, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
Here's your modern Republican Party...

There are the same on left wing sites.

I have even seen where people are calling for violence to deal with Ferguson and New York. Calling for the reeducation of all "white people"...

It happens both directions.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 12, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
I saw a fire engine once.

Doesn't mean they are all over the highways though.

Plural of anecdote is not data.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 12, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
Apogee,

I think a very real problem is that those here on the right mostly criticize Obama. Those here on the left criticize those here on the right for daring to do so...

For example: Ron Anderson rarely goes off on personal attacks but rather he keeps his thoughts, rightly or wrongly, focused on what he wants to say.

You, on the other hand, take it to an entirely new level...
John M

climber
Dec 12, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
For example: Ron Anderson rarely goes off on personal attacks but rather he keeps his thoughts, rightly or wrongly, focused on what he wants to say.

thats a bunch of hooey.. If you haven't noticed how often Ron insults people, then you are either blind or biased.


I think a very real problem is that those here on the right mostly criticize Obama. Those here on the left criticize those here on the right for daring to do so…

total and complete hooey..
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 12, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
Glad you have a handle on your passive aggressive "tendencies."

In all honesty, I have zero desire to debate you beyond asking you to look at it through the eyes of other people.

You don't take anywhere near the amount of sh#t that Ron takes just because of his political beliefs.

It's easy for you to say....
John M

climber
Dec 12, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
which part of my post was passive aggressive?

this is passive aggressive..

Glad you have a handle on your passive aggressive "tendencies."

Because its obvious you aren't "glad".

My post was straight out calling nonsense nonsense. Thats not passive aggressive.

Ron makes blanket insulting statements on a regular basis. Libs this.. libs that.. cali this.. cali that. If you haven't noticed, then I am saying that you are either blind or biased or both.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 12, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
HermitMaster: I know Ron Anderson posts more inflamatory threads than anyone else on ST.

His post on CMacs'
When does OT become so far off that it doesn't belong?

shows his atitude.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2545338/When-does-OT-become-so-far-off-that-it-doesnt-belong


Weve had this conversation before CMac, and I have indeed cut down my OT threads by about 80%. My last one being "Watch the liar" about recent immigration issues that affect us all. It went to over 200 replies in no time
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 12, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
...Among the remarks picked up by the cameraman:

The clip starts with "a small group..."

Small.

Get it?

You can find a small group of lunatics in any political party, religious group, bunch of climbers, whatever. It means nothing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 12, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
"Ron Anderson rarely goes off on personal attacks but rather he keeps his thoughts,"

Is that you, Rong?

So you've learned the trick of multiple avatars, eh? Musta been quite the challenge to learn how to spell, hillbilly.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 13, 2014 - 03:42am PT
Ron gets singled out because there is a shark mentality to many of the liberals on this forum.....

The posts from his detractors are much worse. Just go back and read this thread from the beginning to see what I mean....

For example: Apogee's first post here was telling people they were in a circle jerk.

JohnM, thanks for editing your post and removing the example of bad names that you say Ron uses. Like "cali"......Oh, the horror....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 13, 2014 - 06:55am PT
When it comes to bailing out billionaires no amount is too high. We will spend any amount to save their yachts and protect them from any inconvenience.

But the working guy? Forget about it. It's a big f*#k you from congress.
More than 1 million Americans who were promised secure, predictable retirement income probably will see part of their monthly benefit checks evaporate as Congress moves to stabilize some private pension systems veering toward insolvency.

The expected congressional action to allow previously promised private-sector pensions to be cut is another sign that decades-old assurances that workers were given about retirement income are rapidly fading.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pension-changes-20141212-story.html#page=1
feynman

Trad climber
chossberta
Dec 13, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
Here's a video that should challenge both sides. If something isn't done to stop the increasing polarization, we are as screwed as Israel/Palestine [Click to View YouTube Video]

And for those that want a quick text summary without much insight into what's being talked about...http://righteousmind.com/the-causes-of-political-dysfunction/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 13, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Polarization..? try convincing some working class moron that Mitt Romney wants to share his wealth with him...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 13, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
Soooo? Feynman, who has 31 posts on ST wants us to watch an hour & 19 minute youtube video that he thinks will prove a point.

Feynman? Is it all about you, or are you on medication?

Or both?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 13, 2014 - 09:11pm PT

Native American Council Offers Amnesty to 220 Million Undocumented Whites
Dec 12, 2014

A council of Native American leaders has offered partial amnesty to the estimated 220 million illegal white immigrants living in the United States.

At a meeting of the Native Peoples Council (NPC) in Albuquerque, New Mexico yesterday, Native American leaders considered several proposals on the future of this continent's large, unauthorized European population. The elders ultimately decided to extend a pathway to citizenship for those without criminal backgrounds.

"We are prepared to offer White people the option of staying on this continent legally and applying for citizenship," explains Chief Wamsutta of the Wampanoag nation. "In return, they must pay any outstanding taxes and give back the land stolen from our ancestors.

"Any white person with a criminal record, however, will be deported in the next 90 days back to their ancestral homeland. Rush Limbaugh will be going to Germany. Justin Bieber will depart for Canada. And the entire cast of Jersey Shore will be returning to Italy."

Sustained European colonization of North America began in the 16th and 17th centuries, when arrivals from France, Spain and England first established settlements on land that had hitherto been occupied by native peoples. Over the past 400 years immigrants from these countries and others throughout Europe have transformed the demography of the continent.

Despite their numerical superiority, many scholars question the legality of the European settlement, as it was founded on a mixture of unauthorized immigration, war and genocide.

Progressive native groups welcomed the council's decision today as a step forward towards normalizing relations with the White community. However, many conservative Native Americans are upset about the plan, claiming that amnesty will only serve to reward lawbreakers.

"Why can't we just deport all of the Whites back to Europe?" asks Ité Omáǧažu of the Lakota people, "They're just a drain on our economy anyway. They came over here to steal our resources because they're too lazy to develop their own back home.

"I can't believe we're just going to let them pay a fine. They should get to the back of the line like everybody else - behind the Mexicans."

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/12/12/native-american-council-offers-amnesty-to-220-million-undocumented-whites/
feynman

Trad climber
chossberta
Dec 14, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
Fritz my intent was to point out that polarization, no matter how well intentioned has a pretty negative end game.

Personally, I think people are responsible for the environment they create, not just the occasional dramatic decision. Part of this perspective has emerged trying to rationalize why many partners kayaking and climbing have gotten injured while I haven't, despite being labelled as reckless for various alone trips.

Some people just hope we don't devolve into another civil war. The data suggests the country is at divided as pre-civil war times and the large group and quasi-religious dynamics on both sides paint a very bleak picture.

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Dec 14, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
The data suggests the country is at divided as pre-civil war times and the large group and quasi-religious dynamics on both sides paint a very bleak picture.

interesting comment

but a question

just what is the very bleak quasi-religious dynamic in play from the political left?
feynman

Trad climber
chossberta
Dec 14, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
It's in play from both sides. What's happening is that political groupings since the early 90's have purified memberships to an extraordinary degree. Political group now have a similar function to religions: the group, to a very large and measurable degree, sets the intention of belief. What we see is groups purging out disbelievers. Any dissent is equated with treason. No individual judgment is allowed

This mirrors the old Catholic-Protestant hate wars. America got around this with the sudden emergence of "individual judgement" during the first religious awakening in the 1730's. That set the stage for american pluralism and the move away from oppressive majority rule.

Demonizing the other side is a recipe for enabling humans naturally evolved genocidal tendencies toward out-groups.

(quasi-religion is something that mimics religious group dynamics but may lack something like a well-developed embodied or disembodied god character. Amway from the 80's is one of the classic examples: others include animal liberation front, neo-nazi's etc.)
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
Bs, both sides. There's a right and a wrong. Militia creeps who post about expelling Muslims, "illegals" et al deserve the vitriol they get. And their enablers are almost as bad.
feynman

Trad climber
chossberta
Dec 14, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
Crankster, that seems to be very similar to the attitudes expressed from opposing camps on centuries of ideological wars. I certainly don't advocate the overly-convenient escape of post-modernism (all ethics are relative so gradations are pointless).

I'd just say that failing to understand where the other side comes from correlates strongly with the groundwork for complete polarization which typically ends with full domination by one side or the other.

What's historically gotten around this is enabling individual judgments, then enabling the expression of individual judgments, then denigrating those who express rash judgments. The latter tend to occur when people start to question whether those on the other side are really so different from themselves.

It would seem like the commonality of climbing has the potential to enable people to see that those on the opposing political camp aren't necessarily bad guys. Bad people tend to be randomly distributed throughout populations and tend to be enabled by structure (say constructs emerging from a highly polarized environment....)
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 16, 2014 - 05:02am PT
finally! libs find a muslim they can openly hate (by showing their tolerance):


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/15/campus-turns-on-muslim-conservative-who-penned-pc-satire/?intcmp=latestnews


stoning women for adultery, mutilating girls' genitals, using girls as sex slaves, beheading and crucifying infidels, burying women and children alive, blowing up innocent people in marketplaces, murdering 3000 people just going to work?

all opportunities for libs to show their tolerance

mock political correctness?

a cause for moral outrage!!!



winston smith is dead
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 16, 2014 - 05:34am PT
Bookworm, you need a new signature. If you ever read 1984 you'd applaud killing Winston Smith.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 16, 2014 - 08:08am PT
they said if i voted for romney i'd get a president with an idiotic foreign policy...


http://swampland.time.com/2012/04/18/romneys-radical-position-on-afghanistan/#ixzz288vKjeXG



they were right


http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/world/asia/pakistan-peshawar-school-attack/index.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Taliban-gunmen-attack-military-run-school-in-northwest-Pakistan/articleshow/45532558.cms


hey, "just don't do stupid sh*t"

barry's response:

"The United States condemns in the strongest possible terms today’s horrific attack on the Army Public School in Peshawar, Pakistan. Our hearts and prayers go out to the victims, their families, and loved ones. By targeting students and teachers in this heinous attack, terrorists have once again shown their depravity. We stand with the people of Pakistan, and reiterate the commitment of the United States to support the Government of Pakistan in its efforts to combat terrorism and extremism and to promote peace and stability in the region."



no mention of who's responsible for the attack...that's the way to tell'em, barry!


wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 16, 2014 - 11:35am PT
All there is to say;

Let's hear it for Jeb!
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 16, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
DMT, Frank Zappa's dead so he can't run...who else ya got?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 16, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
Would that asteroid be independent?
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 16, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
Ha!

I'm too worried about the Ebola crisis...

Republicans lied about Ebola because they were using panic and fear to create mistrust of the government in order to win an election. Once Republicans won control of the Senate, Ebola stopped being a pressing issue. Ebola was such a non-issue that House Republicans took the country to the brink of another government shutdown that would have delayed more funding for combating Ebola last week.

The cable news networks tried to use Ebola to increase rating. Republicans used Ebola to win an election. Lost in all of the needless hysteria was the fact that the American people never had anything to fear about Ebola.

The Ebola panic demonstrated that fear based politics didn’t die with the Bush administration. Fear remains the Republican weapon of choice, and the corporate media are happy to go along for the ride if it means increased ratings and profits.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/dec/15/2014-lie-year-exaggerations-about-ebola/
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 16, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
Believe it or not, I would vote for Hillary over some of the possible Republican candidates. While she brings with her all the odious Clinton apparatus, and has an unfortunate tendency to say dumb things at times, I think she's diligent, intelligent, and, like Bill, cares more about this country than about mere partisanship or ideology.

While I hope the Republicans nominate someone I can vote for, I cannot dismiss Hillary as a candidate I could support.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 16, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
"While I hope the Republicans nominate someone I can vote for, I cannot dismiss Hillary as a candidate I could support."

John, next time I'm in Fresno, I'm buying you the libation of your choice.

Your open-mindedness, and objectivity while maintaining an opinion, are admirable.

Soooo...how does Hillary compare to the current GOP frontrunner/likelys...Romney or Jeb?

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 16, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
I totally agree,Apogee.


I vote for POLICY that helps the economy,my work depends on that.

Just being fiscally conservative,yet I am a Progressive Liberal.Fiscally Proven at this time,like it or not.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
Romney is somewhat right of center, but he would have to cave to the crazy right wing on nearly every issue. So would Bush. For that reason, all of those guys are toxic.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 16, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
The problem with Republicans is they have to run so far to the right during the primary to appeal to the rightwing base voters. Then they try to walk back towards the center in the general election and they sound disingenuous.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
Their base would likely be rewarded with another far right Supreme Court pick.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 16, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
crankster & dirt nail the situation nicely, which would seem to make it pretty much hopeless for the GOP.

What GOP candidate will possibly be able to sidestep the Base? If one came forward who spoke truth like Warren, it would be a whooollee new race.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 16, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
Or even Bernie..

He is well liked over here.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 16, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
Agreed.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 16, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
The problem with Republicans is they have to run so far to the right during the primary to appeal to the rightwing base voters. Then they try to walk back towards the center in the general election and they sound disingenuous.

That's the problem for both parties. The problem is that the Republican looney bin is even crazier than that of the Demos. Whichever party captures the center wins the presidential election. That's been the fact for at least all of my 63 years.

TO answer Apogee's earlier question, I don't have particularly strong feelings for or against Romney, but his 2012 campaign causes me concern. How could someone seemingly incapable of running a competent campaign run a competent administration?

As for Jeb Bush, I simply haven't thought seriously about the prospect, although today's announcement suggests I'd better. I think Barbara Bush gave the best analysis of the prospect of a Clinton-Bush campaign: Aren't there two other families in America that have someone who wants to be president?

Let me know when you're in Fresno, Apogee. I'd be happy to spring for a round myself.

John
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 16, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
I can't remember when I last wanted to complement those recently posting on this thread for their posts.

Thank you gentlemen!
WBraun

climber
Dec 16, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
As usual The politards here are just mumbling their usual same nothing drool.

All while the real shell shock events and news are coming out from the intel groups.

The poltarded masses are always light years behind the real truths, if ever even at all ........
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 17, 2014 - 06:51am PT
Business as usual with Hillary but at least the common man/woman would get a bone thrown to them once in a while.

Seems we are only going to get a leader like FDR once in a couple hundred years.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 17, 2014 - 07:29am PT
hopenchange:


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/17/world/americas/ecuador-isaias-obama-campaign-robert-menendez-hillary-clinton.html?_r=1



same ol' corrupt adminstration, different day
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 17, 2014 - 07:52am PT
The state of the nation is so much better than the doom & gloomers say it is. Look around. No need to take a step back into the dark days of the past (2000 - 2008).

We need a skilled politician, not a saint.
Politics is dirty business.
WBraun

climber
Dec 17, 2014 - 08:02am PT
A saint one can trust and a politician one can never ever trust.

Thus one can never ever trust you, and since it's a dirty business you need to clean up, as you're very dirty .....
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2014 - 08:41am PT
Yer right Crankster. I voted for Obama in the primary and general election in 2008. I never bought the "transformative figure" hype. In 2009 it was apparent the right wing was going to do everything it could to bring down his presidency. I think Hillary would have told those mofos right then to go choke on a gorilla schlong, and part of me wished she had been elected because we needed a fighter. Obama has only been willing to do that belatedly, in the last year or so.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 17, 2014 - 08:43am PT
So, there's a real possibility that we will have a Bush vs. Clinton election. Boy, if that isn't enough to get you to open your eyes . . .
There's no hope . . .
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Dec 17, 2014 - 08:56am PT
Jeb Bush is too reasonable, too moderate, too intelligent to survive the Repub Primaries
and get the nomination.

"Winning" the Presidency is not the goal, the GOP gave that idea up long ago when it allowed its rabid base voters to control their Primaries, in addition to dong all the right
things to piss off both women and anyone not white.

Purity may make them feel righteous and good about themselves, but it does not win Presidential elections.

The GOP will have their opportunity to show the country they can actually pass legislation
that will survive Democratic filibustering and the President's vetoes for the next 2 years.

They have already signaled great difficulty with McConnell saying his first goal is to have
the Senate pass legislation for the Keystone Pipeline.

It may sound good to their base just like voting against women's issues and wasting millions on countless votes to repeal the ACA, but it ain't going no where
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 17, 2014 - 10:44am PT
The Cuba thing has the opportunity to change parts of the equation, as well.

Rubio is against. Let's see what Jeb says.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 17, 2014 - 10:48am PT
You're a reasonable man, Ken. Thanks for considering my request.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
Kudos to President Obama for ending a pointless, half century long standoff with Cuba.


Oh I forgot. Barry Hussein is a liar, race baiter, and angry black man.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 17, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
Meanwhile, the doom & gloomers sound more ridiculous every day.

The Dow and S&P 500 had their best days of 2014. The Dow surged 288 points.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 17, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
Financial Market Manipulation Is The New Trend: Can It Continue?
Financial Imperialists Attack Russia - Paul Craig Roberts

A dangerous new trend is the successful manipulation of the financial markets by the Federal Reserve, other central banks, private banks, and the US Treasury. The Federal Reserve reduced real interest rates on US government debt obligations first to zero and then pushed real interest rates into negative territory. Today the government charges you for the privilege of purchasing its bonds.

People pay to park their money in Treasury debt obligations, because they do not trust the banks and they know that the government can print the money to pay off the bonds. Today Treasury bond investors pay a fee in order to guarantee that they will receive the nominal face value (minus the fee) of their investment in government debt instruments.

The fee is paid in a premium, which raises the cost of the debt instrument above its face value and is paid again in accepting a negative rate of return, as the interest rate is less than the inflation rate.

Think about this for a minute. Allegedly the US is experiencing economic recovery. Normally with rising economic activity interest rates rise as consumers and investors bid for credit. But not in this “recovery.”

Normally an economic recovery produces rising consumer spending, rising profits, and more investment. But what we experience is flat and declining consumer spending as jobs are offshored and retail stores close. Profits result from labor cost savings from employee layoffs.

The stock market is high because corporations are the biggest purchases of stock. Buying back their own stock supports or raises the share price, enabling executives and boards to sell their shares or cash in their options at a profitable price. The cash that Quantitative Easing has given to the mega-banks leaves ample room for speculating in stocks, thus pushing up the price despite the absence of fundamentals that would support a rising stock market.

In other words, in America today there are no free financial markets. The markets are rigged by the Federal Reserve’s Quantitative Easing, by gold price manipulation, by the Treasury’s Plunge Protection Team and Exchange Stabilization Fund, and by the big private banks.

Allegedly, QE is over, but it is not. The Fed intends to roll over the interest and principle from its bloated $4.5 trillion bond portfolio into purchases of more bonds, and the banks intend to fill in the gaps by using the $2.6 trillion in their cash on deposit with the Fed to purchase bonds. QE has morphed, not ended. The money the Fed paid the banks for bonds will now be used by the banks to support the bond price by purchasing bonds.

Normally when massive amounts of debt and money are created the currency collapses, but the dollar has been strengthening. The dollar gains strength from the
rigging of the gold price in the futures market. The Federal Reserve’s agents, the bullion banks, print paper futures contracts representing many tonnes of gold and dump them them into the market during periods of light or nonexistent trading. This drives down the gold price despite rising demand for the physical metal. This manipulation is done in order to counteract the effect of the expansion of money and debt on the dollar’s exchange value. A declining dollar price of gold makes the dollar look strong.

The dollar also gains the appearance of strength from debt monetization by the Bank of Japan and the European Central Bank. The Bank of Japan’s Quantitative Easing program is even larger than the Fed’s. Even Switzerland is rigging the price of the Swiss franc. Since all currencies are inflating, the dollar does not decline in exchange value.

As Japan is Washington’s vassal, it is conceivable that some of the money being printed by the Bank of Japan will be used to purchase US Treasuries, thus taking the place along with purchases by the large US banks of the Fed’s QE.

The large private US and UK banks are also manipulating markets hand over fist. Remember the scandal over the banks fixing the LIBOR rate (the London Interbank Borrowing Rate) and the opening gold price on the London exchange. Now the banks have been caught rigging currency markets with algorithms developed to manipulate foreign exchange markets.

When the banks get caught in felonies, they avoid prosecution by paying a fine. You try doing that.

The government even manipulates economic statistics in order to paint a rosy economic picture that sustains economic confidence. GDP growth is exaggerated by understating inflation. High unemployment is swept under the table by not counting discouraged workers as unemployed. We are told we are enjoying economic recovery and have an improving housing market. Yet the facts are that almost half of 25 year old Americans have been forced to return to live with their parents, and 30% of 30 year olds are back with their parents. Since 2006 the home ownership rate of 30 year old Americans has collapsed.
.
The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act during the Clinton regime allowed the big banks to gamble with their depositors’ money. The Dodd-Frank Act tried to stop some of this by requiring the banks-turned-gambling-casinos to carry on their gambling in subsidiaries with no access to deposits in the depository institution. If the banks gamble with depositors money, the banks’ losses are covered by FDIC, and in the case of bank failure, bail-in provisions could give the banks access to depositors’ funds. With the banks still protected by being “too big to fail,” whether Dodd-Frank would succeed in protecting depositors when a subsidiary’s failure pulls down the entire bank is unclear.

The sharp practices in which banks engage today are risky. Why gamble with their own money if they can gamble with depositors’ money. The banks led by Citigroup have lobbied hard to overturn the provision in Dodd-Frank that puts depositors’ money out of their reach as backup for certain types of troubled financial instruments, with apparently only Senator Elizabeth Warren and a few others opposing them. Senator Warren is outgunned as Citigroup controls the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve.

The falling oil price has brought concern that oil derivatives are in jeopardy. Citigroup has a provision in the omnibus appropriations bill that shifts the liability for Citigroup’s credit default swaps to depositors and taxpayers. It was only six years ago that Citigroup was bailed out to the tune of a half trillion dollars. Already Citigroup is back for more while nothing whatsoever is done to bail the American people out of their hardships caused by Citigroup and the other financial gangsters.

What we are experiencing is not a repeat of the past. The ability or, rather, the audacity of the US government itself to manipulate the major financial markets is new. Can this new trend continue? The government is supposed to be the enforcer of laws against market manipulation but is itself manipulating the markets.

Governments and economists take their hats off to free markets. Yet, the markets are rigged, not free. How long can stocks stay up in a lackluster or declining economy? How long can bonds pay negative real interest rates when debt and money are rising. How long can bullion prices be manipulated down when the world’s demand for gold exceeds the annual production?

For as long as governments and banks can rig the markets.

The manipulations are dangerous. Manipulations blow a bigger bubble economy, and manipulations are now being used by Washington as an act of war by driving down the exchange value of the Russian ruble.

If every time the stock market tries to correct and adjust to the real economic situation, the plunge protection team or some government “stabilization” entity stops the correction by purchasing S&P futures, unrealistic values are perpetuated.

The price of gold is not determined in the physical market but in the futures market where contracts are settled in cash. If every time the demand for gold pushes up the price, the Federal Reserve or its bullion bank agents dump massive amounts of uncovered futures contracts in the futures market and drive down the price of gold, the result is to subsidize the gold purchases of Russia, China, and India. The artificially low gold price also artificially inflates the value of the US dollar.

The Federal Reserve’s manipulation of the bond market has driven bond prices so high that purchasers receive a zero or negative return on their investment. At the present time fear of the safety of bank deposits makes people willing to pay a fee in order to have the protection of the government’s ability to print money in order to redeem its bonds. A number of events could end the tolerance of zero or negative real interest rates. The Federal Reserve’s policy has the bond market positioned for collapse.

The US government, perhaps surprised at the ease at which all financial markets can be rigged, is now rigging, or permitting large hedge funds and perhaps George Soros, to drive down the exchange value of the Russian ruble by massive short-selling in the currency market. On December 15 the ruble was driven down 19%.

Just as there is no economic reason for the price of gold to decline in the futures market when the demand for physical gold is rising, there is no economic reason for the ruble to suddenly loose much of its exchange value. Unlike the US, which has a massive trade deficit, Russia has a trade surplus. Unlike the US economy, the Russian economy has not been offshored. Russia has just completed large energy and trade deals with China, Turkey, and India.

If economic forces were determining outcomes, it would be the dollar that is losing exchange value, not the ruble.

The illegal economic sanctions that Washington has decreed on Russia appear to be doing more harm to Europe and US energy companies than to Russia. The impact on
Russia of the American attack on the ruble is unclear, as the suppression of the ruble’s value is artificial.

There is a difference between economic factors causing foreign investors to withdraw their capital from a country, thereby causing the currency to lose value, and manipulation of a currency’s value by heavy short-selling in the currency market. The latter can cause the former also to occur. But the outcome for Russia can be positive.

No country dependent on foreign capital is sovereign. A country dependent on foreign capital, especially from enemies seeking to subvert the economy, is subject to destabilizing currency and economic swings. Russia should self-finance. If Russia needs foreign capital, Russia should turn to its ally China. China has a stake in Russia’s strength as part of China’s protection from US aggression, whether economic or military.

The American attack on the ruble is also teaching sovereign governments that are not US vassals the extreme cost of allowing their currencies to trade in currency markets dominated by the US. China should think twice before it allows full convertibility of its currency. Of course, the Chinese have a lot of dollar assets with which to defend their currency from attack, and the sale of the assets and use of the dollar proceeds to support the yuan could knock down the dollar’s exchange value and US bond prices and cause US interest rates and inflation to rise. Still, considering the gangster nature of financial markets in which the US is the heavy player, a country that permits free trading of its currency sets itself up for trouble.

The greatest harm that is being done to the Russian economy is not due to sanctions and the US attack on the ruble. The greatest harm is being done by Russia’s neoliberal economists.

Neoliberal economics is not merely incorrect. It is an ideology that fosters US economic imperialism. By following neoliberal prescriptions, Russian economists are helping Washington’s attack on the Russian economy.

Apparently, Putin has been sold, along with his internal enemies, the Atlanticist integrationists, on “free trade globalism.” Globalism destroys the sovereignty of every country except the world reserve currency country that controls the system.

As Michael Hudson has shown, neoliberal economics is “junk economics.” But it is also a tool of American financial imperialism, and this makes neoliberal Russian economists tools of American imperialism.

The remaining sovereign countries, which excludes all of Europe, are slowly learning that Western economic institutions are deceptive and that placing trust in them is a threat to national sovereignty.

Washington intends to subvert Russia and to turn Russia into a vassal state like Germany, France, Japan, Canada, Australia, the UK and Ukraine. If Russia is to survive, Putin must protect Russia from Western economic institutions and Western trained economists.

It is too risky for the US to take on Russia militarily. Instead, Washington is using its unique symbiotic relationship with Western financial institutions to attack an incautious Russia that foolishly opened herself to Western financial predation.

Note: The winter issue of Gerald Celente’s Trends Journal identifies financial market manipulation as a Top Trend for 2015.
WBraun

climber
Dec 17, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
The only guy that can see what's really going is Tom Cochrane.

The rest of these loon plitarded fools here waste all their time talking about their loon politarded useless mainstream bullsh!t .....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 17, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Wa Post:

More than a decade ago, polls began showing a tilt in public sentiment toward normalizing ties with the island 90 miles from the tip of Key West, Fla. In 2009, a Washington Post-ABC News survey found that two-thirds of Americans supported restoring diplomatic relations with Cuba, while only 27 percent opposed doing so.

The old ideological and economic battle lines have also been fading on the ground. Even as a trade embargo has remained in place, nearly 600,000 U.S. travelers went to Cuba last year — the majority of them Cuban Americans. Business interests have pushed for more openness, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce pledged its support for Obama’s decision.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 17, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
Normalizing our relations with Cuba is a major win for us, that will likely lead to their government becoming more ---------democratic.

Looks like I won't have to sneak their superior, cheap, & tasty Cuban Rum back from visits to neighboring islands anymore, either.

There will be some backlash from competing rum & sugar producers that U.S. taxpayers have been subsidizing, and from some (duh) clueless Republican conservatives.

Anyone with a clue, will be in favor of this forward move.

Of course, only a liberal Democrat would ever pander to a Communist Country by normalizing relations and ending boycots.

(Anyone else remember Nixon normalizing relations with China?)

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 17, 2014 - 11:57pm PT
Florida International University, which annually polls Cuban Americans, found this year that 68 percent favor diplomatic relations with Cuba. Only 41 percent of those 65 and older favor normalization, while 88 percent between the ages of 18 and 29 do.

Before appearing in the Senate TV studio, Rubio granted an interview to Fox News in which he said that “Barack Obama is the worst negotiator that we’ve had as president since at least Jimmy Carter.” That would be the Jimmy Carter who negotiated the still-successful Camp David accords.

But Rubio had more trouble when The Washington Post’s Ed O’Keefe asked the Catholic lawmaker what he would say to Pope Francis, who intervened to encourage negotiations and to receive delegations from the two countries at the Vatican. “My understanding is that the influence that His Holiness had was on the release of [American Alan] Gross, which I’ve not criticized.”

A statement from the Vatican suggested its interest was broader than that, and the pope offered his “warm congratulations for the historic decision taken by the Governments of the United States of America and Cuba to establish diplomatic relations.”
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 18, 2014 - 06:57am PT
the canary in the health care coal mine:

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/vermont-peter-shumlin-single-payer-health-care-113653.html



bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:01am PT
it should be ironic that universities seek to ban free speech/thought:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/17/marquette-university-tells-employees-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage-could-be-unlawful-harassment/


winston smith is dead

orwell weeps
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:05am PT
oh, how the mighty have fallen (and the libs celebrate):

Special Editorial: Surrender to North Korea
William Kristol

December 18, 2014 8:35 AM

In October 1940, Americans flocked to movie theaters to see Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator, mocking the most powerful tyrant on the globe. In December 2014, movie theaters and then the production company cancelled the release of The Interview because of threats of terror from a tinpot, though totalitarian and evil, tyrant who rules a weak and decrepit nation.

It's not that there is (unfortunately) no precedent for this: consider the Mohammed cartoons. It's not that movie theaters don't have to be attentive to the well-being of those who attend their movies. It's not that there isn't something ridiculous about the lack of Western interest in a totalitarian dictatorship's starving millions of its people, while its attempt to prevent an American movie from being shown makes the front pages.

Still. The surrender to North Korea is a historical moment. It's far more significant than President Obama's announcement the same day of his opening toward Cuba. That is merely another sign of an administration's strategically weak and morally rudderless foreign policy. The capitulation to North Korea could be—unless we reverse course in a fundamental way—a signpost in a collapse of civilizational courage.

In his 1978 Harvard speech, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn saw it all, and said it all:

“A decline in courage may be the most striking feature which an outside observer notices in the West in our days. The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole and separately, in each country, each government, each political party, and, of course, in the United Nations. Such a decline in courage is particularly noticeable among the ruling groups and the intellectual elite, causing an impression of loss of courage by the entire society. Of course, there are many courageous individuals, but they have no determining influence on public life.

“Political and intellectual bureaucrats show depression, passivity, and perplexity in their actions and in their statements, and even more so in theoretical reflections to explain how realistic, reasonable, as well as intellectually and even morally worn it is to base state policies on weakness and cowardice. And decline in courage is ironically emphasized by occasional explosions of anger and inflexibility on the part of the same bureaucrats when dealing with weak governments and with countries not supported by anyone, or with currents which cannot offer any resistance. But they get tongue-tied and paralyzed when they deal with powerful governments and threatening forces, with aggressors and international terrorists.

“Should one point out that from ancient times declining courage has been considered the beginning of the end?”
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2014 - 07:21am PT
Bill Kristol hasn't been right about anything in at least 10 years...he and Dick Morris, what a pair.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 18, 2014 - 08:51am PT
Sony, the same company that sold the chinese our submarine propeller secrets...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 18, 2014 - 11:08am PT
Normalizing trade with Cuba has broad support in the U.S. if, for no other reason, it will help the Cuban people who have been victims of the Castros for half a century. Normalizing diplomatic relations is a different story, but that distinction gets lost so I won't discuss it further.


Instead, I have to share an open letter I read this morning. I love reading what Scots write, partly because they're generally so literate, and partly because my grandfather was educated there before returning to Armenia. Not that the rest of this thread doesn't constitute comic relief, but I found this letter from a person working at the Royal Bank of Scotland to Russell Brand, quite hilarious:

Dear Russell,

Hi. I’m Jo. You may remember me. You may even have filmed me. On Friday, you staged a publicity stunt at an RBS office, inconveniencing a hundred or so people. I was the lanky slouched guy with a lot less hair than you but (I flatter myself) a slightly better beard who complained to you that you, a multimillionaire, had caused my lunch to get cold. You started going on at me about public money and bankers’ bonuses, but look, Russell, anyone who knows me will tell you that my food is important to me, and I hadn’t had breakfast that morning, and I’d been standing in the freezing cold for half an hour on your whim. What mattered to me at the time wasn’t bonuses; it was my lunch, so I said so.

Which is a great shame, because I’d usually be well up for a proper barney with you, and the points you made do actually deserve answers. Although not — and I really can’t emphasise this enough, Russell — not as much as I deserve lunch.

Before I go any further, I should stress that I don’t speak for RBS. I’m not even an RBS employee, though I do currently work for them. What follows is not any sort of official statement from RBS, or even from the wider banking industry. It is merely the voice of a man whose lunch on Friday was unfairly delayed and too damn cold.

So, firstly, for the people who weren’t there, let’s describe the kerfuffle. I didn’t see your arrival; I just got back from buying my lunch to discover the building’s doors were locked, a film crew were racing around outside trying to find a good angle to point their camera through the windows, and you were in reception, poncing around like you were Russell bleeding Brand. From what I can gather, you’d gone in and security had locked the doors to stop your film crew following you. Which left us — the people who were supposed to be in the building, who had work to do — standing around in the cold.

My first question is, what were you hoping to achieve? Did you think a pack of traders might gallop through reception, laughing maniacally as they threw burning banknotes in the air, quaffing champagne, and brutally thrashing the ornamental paupers that they keep on diamante leashes — and you, Russell, would damningly catch them in the act? But that’s on Tuesdays. I get it, Russell, I do: footage of being asked to leave by security is good footage. It looks like you’re challenging the system and the powers that be want your voice suppressed. Or something. But all it really means, behind the manipulative media bullsh#t, is that you don’t have an appointment.

Of course, Russell, I have no idea whether you could get an appointment. Maybe RBS top brass would rather not talk to you. That’s their call — and, you know, some of your behaviour might make them a tad wary. Reputations are very important in banking, and, reputation-wise, hanging out with a guy who was once fired for broadcasting hardcore pornography while off his head on crack is not ideal. But surely a man who can get invited onto Question Time to discuss the issues of the day with our Lords & Masters is establishment enough to talk to a mere banker. And it would be great if you could. Have you tried, Russell? Maybe you could do an interview with one of them. An expert could answer your questions and rebut your points, and you could rebut right back at them. I might even watch that. (By the way, Russell, if you do, and it makes money, I would like a cut for the idea, please. And I’m sure it would. Most things you do make money.

But instead of doing something potentially educational, Russell, you staged a completely futile publicity stunt. You turned up and weren’t allowed in. Big wow. You know what would have happened if a rabid capitalist had just turned up unannounced? They wouldn’t have been allowed in either. You know what I have in my pocket? A security pass. Unauthorised people aren’t allowed in. Obviously. That’s not a global conspiracy, Russell; it’s basic security. Breweries have security too, and that’s not because they’re conspiring to steal beer from the poor. And security really matters: banks are simply crawling with highly sensitive information. Letting you in because you’re a celebrity and You Demand Answers could in fact see the bank hauled in front of the FCA. That would be a scandal. Turning you away is not. I’m sorry, Russell, but it’s just not.

Your response to my complaint that a multimillionaire was causing my lunch to get cold was… well, frankly, it was to completely miss the point, choosing to talk about your millions instead of addressing the real issue, namely my f*cking lunch. But that’s a forgivable mistake. We all have our priorities, Russell, and I can understand why a man as obsessed with money as I am with food would assume that’s what every conversation is about. Anyway, you said that all your money has been made privately, not through taxation. Now, that, Russell, is actually a fair point. Well done.

Although I can’t help but notice that you have no qualms about appearing on the BBC in return for money raised through one of the most regressive taxes in the country, a tax which leads to crippling fines and even jail time for thousands of poor people and zero rich people. But never mind. I appreciate that it’s difficult for a celeb to avoid the BBC, even if they’re already a multimillionaire and can totally afford to turn the work down. Ah, the sacrifices we make to our principles for filthy lucre, eh, Russell? The condoms and hairspray won’t buy themselves. Or, in my case, the pasta.

And then there is that film you’re working on, isn’t there, for which I understand your production company is benefitting from the Enterprise Investment Scheme, allowing the City investors funding your film to avoid tax. Was that the film you were making on Friday, Russell, when you indignantly pointed out to me that none of your money comes from the taxpayer? Perhaps it had slipped your mind.

And, of course, you’ve been in a few Hollywood films now, haven’t you, Russell? I take it you’ve heard of Hollywood Accounting? Of course you have, Russell; you produced Arthur. So you are well aware that Hollywood studios routinely cook their books to make sure their films never go into taxable profit — for instance, Return Of The Jedi has never, on paper, made a profit. Return Of The f*#king Jedi, Russell. As an actor, and even more so as the producer of a (officially) loss-making film, you’ve taken part in that, you’ve benefitted from it. (While we’re on the subject, I hear great things about Hollywood’s catering. I hope you enjoyed it. Expensive, delicious, and served (at least when I dream about it) nice and hot.)

But still, you’re broadly right. Leaving aside the money you make from one of the most regressive of the UK’s taxes, and the tax exemptions your company uses to encourage rich City investors to give you more money, and the huge fees you’ve accepted from one of the planet’s most notorious and successful tax avoidance schemes, you, Russell, have come by your riches without any effect on taxpayers. Whereas RBS got bailed out. Fair point.

Here’s the thing about the bailout of RBS, Russell: it’s temporary. The plan was never to bail out a bank so that it could then go bust anyway. That would be too asinine even for Gordon Brown. The idea was to buy the bank with public money, wait until it became profitable again, then resell it, as Alastair Darling clearly explained at the time. And that is still the plan, and it does appear to be on course. Not only that, but it looks as if the government will eventually sell RBS for more than they bought it for. In other words, the taxpayer will make a profit on this deal.

Of all the profligate pissing away of public money that goes on in this country, the only instance where the public are actually going to get their money back seems an odd target for your ire. What other government spending can you say that about, Russell? What other schemes do they sink taxpayers’ money into and get it all back, with interest? And how many people have you met who have actually been right in the middle of working to make a profit for the taxpayer when you’ve interrupted them to cause their lunch to get cold?

As for bonuses, well, I’ll be honest: I get an annual bonus. I’m not allowed to tell you exactly how much it is, but I will say it’s four or five orders of magnitude smaller than the ones that make the headlines. It’s very nice — helps pay off a bit of credit card debt (remember debt, Russell?) — but, to put it in terms you can understand, I’d need to work for several tens of thousands of years before my bonuses added up to close to what you’re worth.

But here’s the key thing you need to know about bonuses, Russell: they come with conditions attached. My salary is mine to do with as I will (I like to spend a chunk of it on good hot food). My bonus my employer can take back off me under certain conditions. Again, I do not speak for RBS, so cannot say anything about the recent FX trading scandal or PPI or any of that sh*t. But, in general terms, bonuses have conditions attached, such as “And we’ll claw back every penny if we discover you were breaking the rules.” And yes, it does happen. The only bonuses that make the news are the ones that get paid. But, every year, bonuses either don’t get paid or are even taken back off staff for various reasons, including misconduct. I’d’ve thought, Russell, that anyone who wanted bankers to be accountable would approve of the scheme.

And now, if I may, a word about your manner.

Much as I disagree with most of your politics, I’ve always rather liked you. You do a good job of coming across as someone who might be fun to be around. Turns out, that’s an illusion.

Because, you see, Russell, when you accosted me, you started speaking to me with your nose about two inches from mine. That’s pretty f*#king aggressive, Russell. I’m sure you’re aware of the effect. Putting one’s face that close to someone else’s and staring into their eyes is how primates square off for a fight. Regardless of our veneer of civilisation, when someone does that to us, it causes instinctive physical responses: adrenaline, nervousness… back down or lash out. (Or, apparently, in the case of the celebrity bikes you like to hang out with, swoon.) I’m sure that, like turning up with a megaphone instead of an appointment, such an aggressive invasion of personal space makes for great footage: you keep talking to someone in that chatty reasonable affable tone of yours, and they react with anger. Makes them look unreasonable. Makes it look like they’re the aggressive ones. Makes it look like people get flustered in the face of your incisive argument. When in fact they’re just getting flustered in the face of your face.

I’ve been thinking about this the last couple of days, Russell, and I can honestly say that the only other people ever to talk to me the way you did were school bullies. It’s been nearly a quarter of a century since I had to deal with such bastards, so I was caught quite off my guard. Nice company you’re keeping. Now I think about it, they used to ruin my lunchtimes too.

One last thing, Russell. Who did you inconvenience on Friday? Let’s say that you’re right, and that the likes of Fred Goodwin need to pay. OK, so how much trouble do you think Fred faced last Friday as a result of your antics? Do you think any of his food got cold, Russell? Even just his tea? I somehow doubt it. How about some of the millionaire traders you despise so much (some of whom are nearly as rich as you, Russell)? Well, no, because you got the wrong f*cking building. (Might want to have a word with your researchers about that.) Which brings us back to where we came in: a bunch of admittedly fairly well paid but still quite ordinary working people, admin staff mostly, having their lives inconvenienced and, in at least one case, their lunches quite disastrously cooled, in order to accommodate the puerile self-aggrandising antics of a prancing multimillionaire. If you had any self-awareness beyond agonising over how often to straighten your f*cking chest-hair, you’d be ashamed.

It was paella, by the way. From Fernando’s in Devonshire Row. I highly recommend them: their food is frankly just fantastic.

When it’s hot.

If only I could write like that!

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 19, 2014 - 11:32am PT
My presidency is entering it's fourth quarter. Interesting things happen in the fourth quarter.

Welcome back, Barack. We missed you.



P.s.- I saw my new favorite bumper sticker the other day. It read "If Obama was the answer, how stupid was the question?" The question, of course, was "Should a Republican be President?" Twice!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 19, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
We hoped and changed.


Still,not one of you have told me what Republicans have done right.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Dec 21, 2014 - 11:37am PT
Yet another steaming pile of mindless shit! This whole thread.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 21, 2014 - 11:41am PT
Sony, the same company that sold the chinese our submarine propeller secrets...


check your facts there partner....

http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/anglesdangles/taming2.html
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 21, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
SLR...First time i've been wrong on supertopo...My source was a retired squid ( vietnam era ) from the Nautilus...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 22, 2014 - 07:10am PT
Everybody has one.


Facts can hurt.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2014 - 05:58am PT
I like these facts..

US Economy Grew at Fast 5 Pct. Annual Rate in Q3
WASHINGTON — Dec 23, 2014, 8:39 AM ET
By MARTIN CRUTSINGER AP Economics Writer
Associated Press
The U.S. economy grew at a sizzling 5 percent annual rate in the July-September period, the fastest in more than a decade, boosted by strength in consumer spending and business investment.

The Commerce Department on Tuesday sharply revised up its estimate of third-quarter growth from a previous figure of 3.9 percent. Much of the strength came from consumer spending on health care and business spending on structures and computer software.

It was the fastest quarterly growth since the summer of 2003. It followed a 4.6 percent annual growth rate in the April-June quarter.

Most economists think growth is slowing to an annual rate of around 2.5 percent in the current October-December quarter. They foresee growth around 3 percent in 2015.

That would be the strongest figure since the economy expanded 3.3 percent in 2005, two years before the Great Recession began.

The 2007-2009 downturn, the worst since the 1930s, cost millions of people their jobs. Since then, the economy has struggled to regain full health. Even after the recession ended in June 2009, the economy has turned in mediocre growth rates averaging 2.2 percent annually.

But many analysts think growth is finally set to accelerate as more businesses have grown confident about hiring. The country is on track to have its healthiest year for job growth since 1999. In November, employers added 321,000 jobs, the biggest one-month increase in three years.

With more people working and having money to spend, solid gains are expected in consumer spending, which accounts for about 70 percent of the economy.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 23, 2014 - 07:29am PT
Crankster! Great to have more good news like you posted.

I am so tired of the "nabobs of negativity."
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/24/us/house-irs-inquiry-shows-no-connections-to-white-house.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0



Yet another Republican investigation into a "sure thing" Obama scandal comes up empty. That's ok though because it served to suppress voter turnout, gin up Republican outrage and lower Obama's approval rating so MIssion Accomplished! Still waiting for John to say he was wrong about Benghazi. I don't expect he'll admit to this one either.

crankster

Trad climber
Dec 24, 2014 - 06:46am PT

What a year!!!
John M

climber
Dec 24, 2014 - 10:15am PT
If you really believed that it was a troll, would you continue to feed it?
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 24, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
Prattle, trolling, who cares?

I'm just passing on good news about the economy. Like cheaper gas to drive to the crag.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 26, 2014 - 10:43am PT
I have some friends sailing around the world, and got a recent email from them from the Maldives in the Indian Ocean.

Just a short quote to irritate the Muslim haters:

But for today these issues are under control, thanks to a well organized government and an array of social programs that ensure every inhabited island has power, water, access to fuel, and all the necessities for a safe life.

It is one of the few countries we’ve visited where there isn’t even a hint of corruption anywhere, and we’ve found this 100% Muslim population to be the most honest dealing and straight forward people weÕve ever met. There are simply no rip-offs, no back handers for government officials, and if we dropped a wallet from our pocket, we’re certain the locals would ensure it’s prompt return. How this culture of honesty came to exist amidst a region with such rampant corruption is an interesting social question. Perhaps it’s rooted in Muslim tradition, or perhaps it’s the nature of life in a tiny remote island village, where a reputation for dishonesty could have lifelong penalties.

Our mingling with the locals has again been a highlight of our time here so far, and another example of how our lingering prejudices are being systematically deconstructed by the people we meet on our journey.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 26, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Oil Crash: Don’t Believe the Happy Clatter

By Pam Martens and Russ Martens: December 23, 2014

There is a mushrooming false narrative taking over the business airwaves: lower oil prices lead to lower prices at the pump which put more cash in consumers’ pockets which will lead to a more robust economy in the United States in 2015.

Yes, there are certainly lower prices at the pump. Yes, that gives consumers more disposable income. But it will decidedly not lead to a more robust economy in the United States for very long.

This isn’t a little speed bump in oil prices. This is one of the most dramatic and rapid crashes in a key industrial commodity in history. Since June, the price of West Texas Intermediate (WTI), the domestic crude oil produced in the U.S., is down by 47 percent. The price of the internationally traded crude oil, Brent, is down by a similar figure.

If this price collapse were happening in just crude oil, it could be shrugged off as a supply glut problem attributable to growing shale production in the U.S. and over production among OPEC members. But other industrial commodities are in freefall as well. Iron ore prices are down 49 percent this year while copper has declined 15 percent. The price of natural gas is down 30 percent in just the past month, including a plunge of 9 percent just yesterday.

Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that a broad gauge of industrial commodity prices entered a gradual decline in June and then began to plunge in September. That chart looks suspiciously similar to the price action in industrial commodities in the same time period in 2008 – which signaled an early warning to the greatest economic collapse in the United States since the Great Depression. (See charts below.)

Industrial commodity prices are a leading indicator of things that are more than pesky details to economic stability. A robust manufacturing sector and robust consumer demand is simply not compatible with crashing industrial commodity prices.

Plunging industrial commodity prices are compatible with the sharp decline in the interest rate on the 10-year U.S. Treasury note and the fact that yields on similar maturity sovereign debt in Germany, Italy, Austria, Belgium, Finland, France and Ireland set all-time lows this month.

You are no doubt thinking by now that the U.S. stock market is also supposed to be a reliable barometer of economic vitality – looking out on the horizon by about six months.

Sorry. You’re confusing the stock market barometer of yesteryear with today’s cacophony coming from high frequency traders, artificial intelligence algorithms, co-located computers, dark pools, and over $1 trillion in corporations buying back their own stock. It might be helpful to remember that the Dow Jones Industrial Average went from 12,000 to 13,000 between March and May of 2008 before entering a plunge that would take it to the 6500 range by March of 2009. (It should be noted, however, that frothy markets can become frothier than the current one before reality sets in.)

Federal Reserve Chair, Janet Yellen, has climbed out on a very precarious limb in this debate. Both the December 17, 2014 statement from the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) and Yellen in her press conference that day, characterized the collapse in energy prices as “transitory.” The FOMC statement read: “The Committee expects inflation to rise gradually toward 2 percent as the labor market improves further and the transitory effects of lower energy prices and other factors dissipate.” Nothing about the charts below gives an impression of “transitory” conditions.

Not everyone at the Federal Reserve is part of the happy clatter crowd. On October 13, 2014, Chicago Fed President, Charles Evans, spoke before the annual conference of the National Council on Teacher Retirement in Indianapolis. Evans expressed skepticism that an economy can be robust with the tepid growth in wages happening in the United States. Evans stated:

“…it is hard to imagine a robust labor market without solid growth in wages. With productivity growth of around 1 to 2 percent and an inflation target of around 2 percent, we should be seeing wages and benefits rising at around a 3 to 4 percent rate. But that is clearly not the case. Although some in-demand occupations may be experiencing stronger wage growth, overall compensation growth has been around 2 percent over the past six years. Taken altogether, these and other measures lead me to conclude that there remains significant underutilization of labor resources — and likely somewhat more slack than what is indicated by the unemployment rate alone.”

http://wallstreetonparade.com/2014/12/oil-crash-dont-believe-the-happy-clatter/
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 26, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
So quiet from the Obama haters lately, must be the holidays.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 28, 2014 - 07:33am PT
Wonder what Obama's approval rating is?

Quiet times from the right wing whack job.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 28, 2014 - 08:17am PT
The righties have filled up their Hummer's with $1.99/gal. gas, drawn some $$ out of their bulging 401k's, hired Hispanic's to care for their houses and hit the road...free of Ebola and ISIS.
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 29, 2014 - 06:05am PT
crankster

Trad climber
Dec 29, 2014 - 06:14pm PT
Boy, howdy!!!

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/228207-no-3-house-republican-leader-spoke-to-white-supremicist-group

WASHINGTON — Representative Steve Scalise of Louisiana, the No. 3 Republican in the House, addressed a group of white supremacists and neo-Nazis in 2002, a Scalise spokeswoman confirmed Monday as his party prepared to take control of both chambers of Congress.

Mr. Scalise made his remarks to the European-American Unity and Rights Organization, which was founded two years earlier by David Duke, the former Ku Klux Klan leader and Louisiana politician. Mr. Scalise was a Louisiana state legislator at the time.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has described the organization — which uses EURO as an acronym — as a hate group, while noting that in recent years it has “accomplished little” and serves “primarily as a vehicle to publicize Duke’s writing and sell his books.”
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 29, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
TRUE.



LOL.....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 30, 2014 - 12:14am PT
Washington has shaped 2015 to be a year of conflict. The conflict could be intense.

Washington is the cause of the conflict, which has been brewing for some time. Russia was too weak to do anything about it when the Clinton regime pushed NATO to Russia’s borders and illegally attacked Yugoslavia, breaking the country into small easily controlled pieces. Russia was also too weak to do anything about it when the George W. Bush regime withdrew from the ABM treaty and undertook to locate anti-ballistic missile bases on Russia’s borders. Washington lied to Moscow that the purpose of the ABM bases is to protect Europe from non-existent Iranian nuclear ICBMs. However, Moscow understood that the purpose of the ABM bases is to degrade Russia’s nuclear deterrent, thereby enhancing Washington’s ability to coerce Russia into agreements that compromise Russian sovereignty.

By summer 2008 Russian power had returned. On Washington’s orders, the US and Israeli trained and equipped Georgian army attacked the breakaway republic of South Ossetia during the early hours of August 8, killing Russian peacekeepers and civilian population. Units of the Russian military instantly responded and within a few hours the American trained and equipped Georgian army was routed and defeated. Georgia was in Russia’s hands again, where the province had resided during the 19th and 20th centuries.

Putin should have hung Mikheil Saakashvili, the American puppet installed as president of Georgia by the Washington-instigated “Rose Revolution”, and reincorporated Georgia into the Russian Federation. Instead, in a strategic error, Russia withdrew its forces, leaving Washington’s puppet regime in place to cause future trouble for Russia. Washington is pushing hard to incorporate Georgia into NATO, thus adding more US military bases on Russia’s border. However, at the time, Moscow thought Europe to be more independent of Washington than it is and relied on good relations with Europe to keep American bases out of Georgia.

Today the Russian government no longer has any illusion that Europe is capable of an independent foreign policy. Russian President Vladimir Putin has stated publicly that Russia has learned that diplomacy with Europe is pointless, because European politicians represent Washington’s interest, not Europe’s. Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently acknowledged that Europe’s Captive Nation status has made it clear to Russia that Russian goodwill gestures are unable to produce diplomatic results.

With Moscow’s delusion shattered that diplomacy with the West can produce peaceful solutions, reality has set in, reinforced by the demonization of Vladimir Putin by Washington and its vassal states. Hillary Clinton called Putin the new Hitler. While Washington incorporates former constituent parts of the Russian and Soviet empires into its own empire and bombs seven countries, Washington claims that Putin is militarily aggressive and intends to reconstitute the Soviet empire. Washington arms the neo-nazi regime Obama established in Ukraine, while erroneously claiming that Putin has invaded and annexed Ukrainian provinces. All of these blatant lies are echoed repeatedly by the Western presstitutes. Not even Hitler had such a compliant media as Washington has.

Every diplomatic effort by Russia has been blocked by Washington and has come to naught. So now Russia has been forced by reality to update its military doctrine. The new doctrine approved on December 26 states that the US and NATO comprise a major military threat to the existence of Russia as a sovereign independent country.

The Russian document cites Washington’s war doctrine of pre-emptive nuclear attack, deployment of anti-ballistic missiles, buildup of NATO forces, and intent to deploy weapons in space as clear indications that Washington is preparing to attack Russia.

Washington is also conducting economic and political warfare against Russia, attempting to destabilize the economy with economic sanctions and attacks on the ruble. The Russian document acknowledges that Russia faces Western threats of regime change achieved through “actions aimed at violent change of the Russian constitutional order, destabilization of the political and social environment, and disorganization of the functioning of governmental bodies, crucial civilian and military facilities and informational infrastructure of Russia.” Foreign financed NGOs and foreign owned Russian media are tools in Washington’s hands for destabilizing Russia.

Washington’s reckless aggressive policy against Russia has resurrected the nuclear arms race. Russia is developing two new ICBM systems and in 2016 will deploy a weapons system designed to negate the US anti-ballistic missile system. In short, the evil warmongers that rule in Washington have set the world on the path to nuclear Armageddon.

The Russian and Chinese governments both understand that their existence is threatened by Washington’s hegemonic ambitions. Larchmonter reports that in order to defeat Washington’s plans to marginalize both countries, the Russian and Chinese governments have decided to unify their economies into one and to conjoin their military commands. Henceforth, Russia and China move together on the economic and military fronts.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/08rzue8ffism94t/China-
Russia_Double_Helix.docx

The unity of the Bear and the Dragon reduces the crazed neoconservatives’ dream of “an American century” to dangerous nonsense. As Larchmonter puts it, “The US and NATO would need Michael the Archangel to defeat China-Russia, and from all signs Michael the Archangel is aligned with the Bear and its Orthodox culture. There is no weapon, no strategy, no tactic conceivable in the near future to damage either of these rising economies now that they are ‘base pairs.’”

Larchmonter sees hope in the new geopolitics created by the conjoining of Russia and China. I don’t dispute this, but if the arrogant neoconservatives realize that their hegemonic policy has created a foe over which Washington cannot prevail, they will push for a pre-emptive nuclear strike before the Russian-Chinese unified command is fully operational. To forestall a sneak attack, Russia and China should operate on full nuclear alert.

The US economy–indeed the entire Western orientated economy from Japan to Europe–is a house of cards. Since the economic downturn began seven years ago, the entirety of Western economic policy has been diverted to the support of a few over-sized banks, sovereign debt, and the US dollar. Consequently, the economies themselves and the ability of populations to cope have deteriorated.

The financial markets are based on manipulation, not on fundamentals. The manipulation is untenable. With debt exploding, negative real interest rates make no sense. With real consumer incomes, real consumer credit, and real retail sales stagnant or falling, the stock market is a bubble. With Russia, China, and other countries moving away from the use of the dollar to settle international accounts, with Russia developing an alternative to the SWIFT financial network, the BRICS developing alternatives to the IMF and World Bank, and with other parts of the world developing their own credit card and Internet systems, the US dollar, along with the Japanese and European currencies that are being printed in order to support the dollar’s exchange value, could experience a dramatic drop in exchange value, which would make the import-dependent Western world dysfunctional.

In my opinion, it took the Russians and Chinese too long to comprehend the evil that has control in Washington. Therefore, both countries risk nuclear attack prior to the full operational capability of their conjoined defense. As the Western economy is a house of cards, Russia and China could collapse the Western economy before the neoconservatives can drive the world to war. As Washington’s aggression against both countries is crystal clear, Russia and China have every right to the following defensive measures.

As the US and EU are conducting economic warfare against Russia, Russia could claim that by wrecking the Russian economy the West has deprived Russia of the ability to repay loans to the European banks. If this does not bring down the thinly capitalized EU banks, Russia can announce that as NATO countries are now officially recognized by Russian war doctrine as an enemy of the Russian state, Russia can no longer support NATO’s aggression against Russia by selling natural gas to NATO members. If the shutdown of much of European industry, rapidly rising rates of unemployment, and bank failures do not result in the dissolution of NATO and thus the end of the threat, the Chinese can act.

The Chinese hold a very large amount of dollar-denominated financial assets. Just as the Federal Reserve’s agents, the bullion banks, dump massive shorts onto the bullion futures markets during periods of little activity in order to drive down the bullion price, China can dump the equivalent in US Treasuries of years of Quantitative Easing in a few minutes. If the Federal Reserve quickly creates dollars with which to purchase the enormous quantity of Treasuries so that the financial house of cards does not implode, the Chinese can then dump the dollars that they are paid for the bonds in the currency market. Whereas the Federal Reserve can print dollars with which to purchase the Treasuries, the Fed cannot print foreign currencies with which to buy the dollars.

The dollar would collapse, and with it the power of the Hegemony. The war would be over without a shot or missile fired.

In my view, Russia and China owe it to the world to prevent the nuclear war intended by the neoconservatives simply by replying in kind to Washington’s economic warfare. Russia and China hold all the cards. Not Washington.

Russia and China should give no warning. They should just act. Indeed, instead of step by step, Russia and China could simultaneously use the counter-measures. With four US banks holding derivatives totaling many times world GDP, the financial explosion would be the equivalent to a nuclear one. The US and Europe would be finished, and the world would be saved.

Larchmonter possibly is correct. 2015 could be a very good year, but pre-emptive economic moves by Moscow and Beijing could be required. Putin’s current plan seems to be to turn away from the West, ignore the provocations, and mesh Russia’s strategic and economic interests with those of Asia. This is a humane and reasonable course of action, but it leaves the West untroubled and undistracted by its economic vulnerabilities. An untroubled West remains a grave danger not only to Russia and China but also to Americans and the entire world.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 30, 2014 - 07:53am PT
Tom: I must remark that your last quote is pretty strange stuff. When I follow your link, I of course find it is posted on the MediaFire blog site.

MediaFire is an online storage and collaboration company focused on providing the world with a complete and easy-to-use solution for managing their digital stuff online and on the go.


The title of the article & the author are:

Vineyard of the Saker WHITE PAPER
2014: Russia-China Resistance
The DOUBLE HELIX: CHINA-RUSSIA
—Larchmonter 445

Easy for me to believe that it is written by an anonymous Russian, which doesn't make it off-topic, just real strange. You can get a better idea of the nature of Larchmonter 445 on this blog site, where each topic is available in Russian or English: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/12/vineyard-of-saker-white-paper-china.html
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Dec 31, 2014 - 11:30pm PT

crankster

Trad climber
Jan 1, 2015 - 08:09am PT
^^^
Elect Jeb and the soup lines will be even longer.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 1, 2015 - 09:14am PT
Wrong, Crank.

They will be abolished under unlawful assembly.
WBraun

climber
Jan 1, 2015 - 09:35am PT
Just see these stupid politards as usual saying absolutely nothing ......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2015 - 10:53pm PT
I had a chance to catch the new movie "the imitation game", which was excellent and Oscar worthy.

I won't spoil the story, but if you don't know it, what he did shortened the war in Europe by 2-4 years, and saved at least 14 million lives. If you don't know what his resulting invention, the "Turing Machine" has done, suffice it to say that all of our lives are directly impacted. A real giant.

However, he was gay. After the war, he was prosecuted and sentenced to chemical castration. A year or so later, he committed suicide.

Please see this amazing film.

But it got me to thinking: The reason that we will inevitably be the culture that wins, is that we, in our liberal age, accept the gays, and the women, and the other minorities. This is not true in Russia, China, N. Korea, the middle east (except for Israel). These other cultures have enormously handicapped themselves for the long haul.

Half of the coming Einsteins will be women. 1 in 20 will be gay.

The conservatives would have us give this astonishing advantage away. History is against them.
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2015 - 06:30am PT
4 stars, Ken. Easily, one of the best of the year. Saw it in Reno yesterday. I'd guess 5-6 Oscar nominations.

And look for the Republicans to reignite the "culture wars" now that the crazies run the show in DC,
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 5, 2015 - 08:30am PT
Kobul is a thriving ancient city!!! Thank-you U.S tax payers...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 5, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
When I say "win", what I refer to is the eventual direction of civilized societies.

Will all the countries of the world move toward liberal democracies, or will we all move towards another model?

As it has been stated elsewhere, all societies in the history of the planet have moved, with fits and starts, toward liberalism. No one has been able to describe a real exception over time. We see short term reversals, such as N. Korea and Russia right now. But they are not stable.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 5, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
kabul from tv...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 5, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
"all societies in the history of the planet have moved, with fits and starts, toward liberalism."

There is a fitting biologic analogy: those species who do not adjust & change to new conditions will die & disappear. Politics are no different, really.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 6, 2015 - 08:30am PT
hoist with their own petard:


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/us/health-care-fixes-backed-by-harvards-experts-now-roil-its-faculty.html?_r=0


oh, the irony...

rincon

Trad climber
Coarsegold
Jan 6, 2015 - 08:49am PT
The rightwing kooks are confused again.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-rights-confused-celebration-about-harvard-healthcare

Oh, the idiocy...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jan 6, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
Bookworn...about as dumb as they get .
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 6, 2015 - 06:52pm PT
for rincon....
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 6, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
For pyromaniac
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 6, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
Oh!

How Nice!

Now that:
Kirby Delauter, Kirby Delauter, Kirby Delauter
is famous, I suppose Kirby Delauter, Kirby Delauter, Kirby Delauter, will be running for president, as a Paranoid Party candidate.

I see it likely that the Republican Party & the Paranoid Party will merge, (due to their common platform) and Kirby Delauter, Kirby Delauter, Kirby Delauter will be their candidate for President.

How Nice for the Republicans!

(do you know the 3 Southern women & the "How nice for you!" story?)
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 7, 2015 - 07:34am PT
Crank I was impressed with dallas too.I figured they lost but didnt...lol when I seen Christy jumping like a little boy...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 7, 2015 - 11:13am PT
Hilarious editorial! I wonder, though, if that paper denounced the majority opinion in Citizens United. Its ridicule of the threatened lawsuit by The Councilman Whose Name I Should Not Mention (hereafter "TCWNISNO" or "IT") rests on the holding in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan. That 50-year-old SCOTUS opinion, that public figures must prove knowing falsity or reckless disregard of truth to win a libel case, held that the New York Times Company, (a corporation, for those unaware) had its First Amendment rights violated.

While IT certainly sounds ridiculous, his contention that most of the media march in lockstep on certain issues has much truth when it comes to reporting and editorializing on Citizens United. If "journalists" actually did what they purport to do, they would be skewering the critics of the Citizens United holding.

John
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 7, 2015 - 11:24am PT
Bruce: Rather than stringing out the story, as is my way.

The 3 southern women enjoy tea together, and at intervals, each tells how blessed their life is.

The 2 others dutifully reply: "How Nice" & "How Nice for you."

Finally the 3rd woman explains she has had a miserable life, but did attend charm school, so that now she can listen to stories of blessed lives from charming southern women and say "How Nice for you," instead of "Fuk you bitch!"


Best told in a broad southern accent.

How Nice for the new Republican Controlled Congress!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 13, 2015 - 07:42am PT
"Bookworn...about as dumb as they get ."


because i posted a link to an article by nyt? i'm "dumb" because i assume the accuracy of the nyt's reporting? oh, wait...i guess i should have known better...so libs finally confirm the nyt can't be trusted...even when it quotes people


but if it makes you feel better to attack me, go ahead; there isn't anything else for libs to be happy about:



from noonan:

It was not a missed public relations opportunity. PR is the showbiz of life, and that is not what this is.

Here are the reasons the president of the United States, or at very least the vice president, should have gone yesterday to the Paris march and walked shoulder to shoulder with the leaders of the world:

To show through his presence that the American people fully understand the import of what happened in the Charlie Hebdo murders, which is that Islamist extremists took the lives of free men and women who represented American and Western political freedoms, including freedom of speech;

To show through his presence that America and the West, and whatever nations choose to proclaim adherence to their democratic values, will stand together in rejecting and resisting extremist Islamist intolerance and violence;

To demonstrate the shared understanding that the massacre may amount to a tipping point, whereby those who protect and put forward Western political values will insist upon them in their sphere and ask their Muslim fellow citizens to walk side by side with them in shared public commitment;

To formally acknowledge the deep sympathy we feel that France, our oldest ally, suffered in the Charlie Hebdo murders a psychic shock akin to what America felt and suffered on 9/11/01. The day after our tragedy, the great French newspaper Le Monde ran an unforgettable cover with an editorial of affection and love titled Nous sommes tous Américains: “We are all Americans.” That was an echo of what our American doughboys, who went to France in 1917 to save it, famously said as they landed: “Lafayette, we are here.” Gen. Lafayette had been our first foreign friend and fought alongside Washington when we needed friends, in 1776. Is it sentimental to note this? Great nations run in part on sentiment.

For these reasons and more, Mr. President, Paris was worth a march.

It matters when, through absence and through bland statements, the leaders of America say: “Lafayette, we are not here.” For all the ups and downs of the Franco-American relationship, the French are our friends. You march with your friends. It is civilizational: Sheer numbers and the importance of those marching show the world what unity, strength and shared commitment look like. Even Putin sent a top official.

The absence of the American president shows, too, what America would never in the past have conceded or acknowledged, and it was there in the photos of the order of the march. There in the center of the world leaders was Angela Merkel, leader of the West. I wrote a piece suggesting she had become that last spring. I was disturbed and saddened—actually I was mortified as I watched the entire march on TV in New York—to see that fact played out on every screen in the world.

Mr Obama is wholly out of sync with U.S. thinking and sentiment.

Well, we sent the U.S. ambassador to France, Jane Hartley, down the street from the embassy to the march, say the administration’s defenders. An Obama bundler, Hartley is widely acquainted with New York’s journalists, who looked for her in the pictures of the crowd. I scanned dozens of pictures and could not find her. The French know a snub when they see one, and the French know how to snub back. I’m sure the organizers put her somewhere among the millions and perhaps through the obscurity of the position showed what they thought of the governmental status and standing of the person America “sent.” Memo to this, past, and future White Houses: just because you send fundraisers to represent our country in high diplomatic posts does not mean those countries will pretend they were sent Chip Bohlen. The French, of all peoples, won’t.

Were security concerns the reason for the president’s absence? Life is a security concern, you must do what’s right. Would massive U.S. security have inconvenienced others? Then make the security around the president less massive, less an imposition. There is no law that says it must be as Caesarian, and alienating, as it is. The president was too busy? He had an empty schedule. So did the vice president. The march was, at bottom, a preening and only symbolic show? When has this White House ever shown an aversion to preening and symbolic shows?

This was not caring enough.

Politico yesterday noted the president’s reaction from day one of the Charlie Hebdo story has been “muted.” He sat in an armchair in his office and pronounced the shootings “cowardly.” He also said something that struck me at the time, that the murders violated “a universal belief in the freedom of expression.” But there is no universal belief of free expression. Where it exists it has to be defended, in unity and with guts. That is the point.

Before I put up this post I searched the phrase “Lafayette, we are not here” to see if anyone had said it yet. It is already appearing on blogs and comment threads. Good. And it would be good to send our friends in France, again through social media, the sentence, “Lafayette we are here, still, and with you, even if our leaders were not. The American people.”


but, hey, barry and kerry are all over that climate threat, huh?
WBraun

climber
Jan 13, 2015 - 07:55am PT
NYT is the worst American news media along with CNN, WSJ etc etc.

They are bought and sold of their soul.

They are goners,

The Obama administration boycotted the trip to France on purpose.

No American main slime media will say why because they are controlled by the same very factions that caused the events in France.

Obama knows the real story.

He was not going to go along with those French aszhole criminals staring Hollande and Netyahoo along with their fuked up crew.

You people have been 0wned again and again and again.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 13, 2015 - 08:11am PT
NYT is the worst American news media along with CNN, WSJ etc etc.

What media outlets do you consider fair-minded, credible and relevant?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 13, 2015 - 08:27am PT
What media outlets do you consider credible and relevant?

I obviously can't answer for Werner, but you need to look at the publishers who are not tied to multi-national corporations. Here are a couple I think are fairly objective:

 Democracy Now
 Common Dreams

Certainly there are others that try to tell a straight story. But these days, when you have the DOJ busting journalists for their sources (and the spying by the NSA), it's getting harder.


For example, here's a view of the France massacre that you will not see in the NYT, or any other MSM. Does it ring true?

The terrorist attack in France that took place at the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo was not about free speech. It was not about radical Islam. It did not illustrate the fictitious clash of civilizations. It was a harbinger of an emerging dystopia where the wretched of the earth, deprived of resources to survive, devoid of hope, brutally controlled, belittled and mocked by the privileged who live in the splendor and indolence of the industrial West, lash out in nihilistic fury.

We have engineered the rage of the dispossessed. The evil of predatory global capitalism and empire has spawned the evil of terrorism. And rather than understand the roots of that rage and attempt to ameliorate it, we have built sophisticated mechanisms of security and surveillance, passed laws that permit the targeted assassinations and torture of the weak, and amassed modern armies and the machines of industrial warfare to dominate the world by force. This is not about justice. It is not about the war on terror. It is not about liberty or democracy. It is not about the freedom of expression. It is about the mad scramble by the privileged to survive at the expense of the poor. And the poor know it.
    Chris Hedges

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/01/12/message-dispossessed
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 13, 2015 - 08:36am PT
I like a blend of sources- NYT, Economist, NPR (really the only venue on which I have heard conservatives say anything intelligent), Guardian UK. I loath Murdoch so don't read the WSJ anymore but the reporting is probably credible.

As this thread had always demonstrated, many people don't understand the difference between opinion and reporting.
WBraun

climber
Jan 13, 2015 - 08:45am PT
As this thread had always demonstrated, many people don't understand the difference between opinion and reporting.

Nope .....

They don't even report.

They omit so that the reports are missing the full real story and you only see what they want you to see.

You've been 0wned so many times that it looks real.

In the recent events Obama boycotted the azhole Neytahoo but Hollande couldn't.

He was pissed and told that aszhole not to come to France.

The fuk head came anyway, and why and the real reason?

You'll never understand reading your American main slime bullsh!t ....
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 13, 2015 - 09:16am PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 13, 2015 - 09:19am PT
I obviously can't answer for Werner, but you need to look at the publishers who are not tied to multi-national corporations. Here are a couple I think are fairly objective:

Democracy Now
Common Dreams

Certainly there are others that try to tell a straight story. But these days, when you have the DOJ busting journalists for their sources (and the spying by the NSA), it's getting harder.

Both of those sources are considerably left leaning.

I was asking about a fair-minded, nonpartisan news source.
WBraun

climber
Jan 13, 2015 - 09:22am PT
You are just going to have to hunt it yourself.

It's not easy.

Even the fair minded get infiltrated by left or right leaning or painted by bias or subtle disinfo.

it takes hard work and lots of time to sift thru it all ......
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 13, 2015 - 09:27am PT
from another right-wing dishrag (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/01/obamas-legacy-caldwell.html);:

These are, however, typical Obama achievements. They are triumphs of tactics, not consensus-building. Obamacare involved quid pro quos (the “Cornhusker Kickback,” the “Louisiana Purchase,” etc.) that passed into Capitol Hill lore, accounting and parliamentary tricks to render the bill unfilibusterable, and a pure party-line vote in the Senate. You can call it normal politics, but Medicare did not pass that way. Gay marriage has meant Cultural Revolution–style bullying of dissenters (notoriously, Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty and the Mozilla founder Brendan Eich). You can call this normal politics, too, but the 1964 Civil Rights Act did not pass that way.

Obama’s legacy is one of means, not ends. He has laid the groundwork for a political order less answerable to voters. His delay of the Obamacare employer mandate by fiat, his provision of working papers to immigrants by executive order — these are not applications of old tricks but dangerous constitutional innovations. After last fall’s electoral rout, the president claimed to have “heard” (presumably to speak on behalf of) the two-thirds of people who didn’t vote. And he has forged a partnership with the country’s rich — not the high-earning professionals calumniated in populist oratory (including his own) but the really existing Silicon Valley and Wall Street plutocracy.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 13, 2015 - 10:44am PT
EdwardT, you should know by now that, to most people, "fair-minded" means "agreeing with me." I find that leftists, in particular, often have great difficulty believing that intelligent people can disagree. Too often, and particularly of late, I come across people who genuinely believe that those with whom they disagree are either stupid or intellectually dishonest.

I believe that the lack of political diversity in education and the media contribute to that sort of narrow-mindedness. If I were never exposed to a diversity of viewpoints, and instead were bombarded with dogma - complete with purported evidence of the intellectual inferiority of those holding conflicting views - I think I would have a difficult time finding it worthwhile to listen to those with whom I disagree.

I see hope, though. As just one example, consider the evolution of the term "climate change skeptics" to "climate change deniers." Since skepticism underlies the scientific method, but denial contradicts it, enough people with knowledge of science rebelled against the idea that a "skeptic" disdained science. If nothing else, exposure to diverse viewpoints might increase skepticism generally, to our great intellectual advantage.

John
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 13, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
Real Clear Politics is good stuff. Opposing views offered by serious minded pundits.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 13, 2015 - 01:33pm PT
Did we win the Cold War? Is it over?

Cuz last time I checked, both sides still had their nuclear arsenals ready and aimed at each other.

The Berlin Wall did fall - it didn't have much to do with American efforts, though. The system collapsed under its own weight - and a serendipitous decisions of a few individuals an the Nth hour got the snowball rolling.
John M

climber
Jan 13, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
I find that leftists, in particular,

LOL.. and I find that righties…..

you make good points John, but your bias shows. Do I need to give you examples on this forum of righties?

Could we say that some people are able to recognize intelligence in those they disagree with, and others aren't? Probably the majority of people aren't able to.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
Yes, it was the lefties in particular on Fox News, who before the 2012 election were certain "their" polls showed a Governor Romney victory, on election night 2012 were certain Governor Romney was winning, that Solyndra was an example of government waste created by lefties, and later, that there was a criminal coverup perpetrated by our Kenyan-born socialist President about events in Benghazi.

It's also the lefties who are currently leading the bashing of climate change science, and who believe that a debt ceiling default would really not be a very big deal.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 13, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
I blame it all on babies. Things are going along fine, then you throw a baby into the mix.

'nuff said.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 13, 2015 - 09:53pm PT
We have engineered the rage of the dispossessed.

The nations of Islam engineered their own problems when they forced their women out of society. That's half of their intellectual capacity and most of their compassion as a people down the drain. Sharia is the true war on women. Blaming the west for that is pointless.

Should Obama have showed up in Paris? This posed a problem for the administration. Biden could be counted on to be a fool in public, Kerry is not respected in Europe, Obama would have been out of his league. Given the cards they had to play they made the best decision.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2015 - 09:37am PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 14, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
The nations of Islam engineered their own problems when they forced their women out of society. That's half of their intellectual capacity and most of their compassion as a people down the drain. Sharia is the true war on women. Blaming the west for that is pointless.

Muslim countries have ELECTED 7 women to be President. How many has the modern, forward thinking US elected?

I think such assertions mix up two very different things: the particular culture in a particular region of the world, and religion of the people, which may have nothing to do with the objectionable practice.

For example, recently Bill Maher went on a rant about Muslims, including a complaint about female genital mutilation in Somalia---which is true. However, it is not a Muslim problem, it is an African problem.

In the country of Eritrea, 90% of females are so mutilated. Eritrea is a Christian nation. In Ethiopia, 75% of females are so mutilated. Ethiopia is a Christian nation.

In no Muslim nation outside of Africa, is there any significant such mutilation.

And yet...Muslims get blamed.
John M

climber
Jan 14, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
great points Ken..
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 14, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
For example, here's a view of the France massacre that you will not see in the NYT, or any other MSM. Does it ring true?

No, it rings like an opportunist taking advantage of tragedy to push their own agenda, K-man.

It's a nice opinion, with no factual basis. Did they quote the actual perpetrators? Did they quote those who have claimed responsibility? No.

Because, if they did, they would be quoting things which contradicted their narrative.

Opinions are not facts, no matter how loudly or frequently repeated.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 16, 2015 - 09:40am PT
the onion nails it, again!

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/396535/youve-got-friend-kerry-roundly-mocked-after-bringing-james-taylor-give-french-big-hug


wait, what? this isn't a joke?


what's next, sending peter, paul and mary to sing kumbaya to boko haram?

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2015/01/10/boko-haram-attack-n1941235

how about elton john as the new ambassador to isis; he can sing "candle in the wind":

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/01/16/isis-throws-men-to-their-deaths-for-being-gay-n1944080

or we can send this guy to settle the israeli-palestinian conflict:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmpMO2dJQ6Q


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2015 - 11:05am PT
Lol...poor bookie. He can't bitch about the economy, so he resorts to bitching about this.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jan 16, 2015 - 11:10am PT
Shoulda gotten Cat Stevens to sing "Peace Train".

Somewhere I read that Carole King was unavailable to sing "It's too Late"
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 16, 2015 - 11:18am PT
I heard Carly Fiorina last night saying that income inequality is the biggest issue facing America.

That's right...HP's CEO, saying that employees need to be paid more....

Yet another metric of the success of the Obama Administration: Frickin' GOP ain't got nuthin, so they're using the Dems talking points.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 16, 2015 - 11:38am PT
I heard Carly Fiorina last night saying that income inequality is the biggest issue facing America.

That's right...HP's CEO, saying that employees need to be paid more....

Yet another metric of the success of the Obama Administration: Frickin' GOP ain't got nuthin, so they're using the Dems talking points.

It is a big issue, which hasn't improved much during Obama's Presidency. The Economy and the Dow have done exceptionally well, while wage growth has been nearly non-existent.

Is this another example of Trickle Down Economics not working? Should President Obama get a pass?

Or should we just make a big fuss over Fiorina's rhetoric?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Jan 16, 2015 - 11:42am PT
If you were the President, what exactly would you have had the constitutional authority
to do, on your own with no "help" from the Repub House, to either raise lower class wages or narrow "income inequality"?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 16, 2015 - 11:48am PT
"It is a big issue, which hasn't improved much during Obama's Presidency."

No sh#t, Sherlock....but the point is by most every tangible metric, the economy is light years ahead of when he came into office. The GOP wanted so badly for the economy to suck at the end of Obama's Administration. so they'd be a shoo-in in 2016.

Didn't happen...so they are left to cherry-pick from talking points that are normally those of the Dems. That's pretty damn desperate, don't you think?

And to echo Norton...do you really think the POTUS is responsible for increasing wages? Even if Obama made some kind of Executive Action to directly affect this (a silly proposition), how well do you think that would be spun by the 'Obama Is a Tyrant' GOP?

Edit: You're right, PotatoHead. She's the Ex-CEO of HP. And she expressed her interest in a WH run for 2016, too.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 16, 2015 - 11:58am PT
Thanks for answering my question.

The last one. ;-)
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 16, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
A quick search on Carly Fiorina produced:

"Fiorina was considered one of the most powerful women in business during her tenure at Lucent and Hewlett-Packard."

followed by

"She has frequently been ranked as one of the worst CEOs of all time."

It's always that fall from grace that everyone remembers.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 17, 2015 - 02:40pm PT
Fineswine pigs out!

http://pagesix.com/2015/01/16/senators-husband-stands-to-profit-from-government-deal/?_ga=1.137700920.922370688.1421462337
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 20, 2015 - 11:02am PT
woohoo! another opportunity for libs to show their "tolerance":

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/female-genital-mutilation-growing-problem-iran_824155.html



war on women? who cares about genital mutilation when you've got "manspreading"?

crankster

Trad climber
Jan 20, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
Excellent. Excellent.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 20, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
Spud Head...NWO2 said dems and repubs are the same so i didn't watch the SOTU...I'd vote for George W. Bush since he did a great job of letting Al Quaeda topple the Twin Towers while crashing the world economy...I know Obama will upstage W's incompetency but time is running out and i wonder when this will happen...? I trust your rational judgement...rj
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 20, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
Spud Head...It could be me...I'll have Mouse from Merced explain it in short hand...Stand by...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 20, 2015 - 10:00pm PT
Good speech!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2015 - 06:41am PT
Governor Huckabee doesn't understand basic civics:

"One thing I am angry about though ... is this notion of judicial supremacy, where if the court makes a decision, I hear governors and even some aspirants to the presidency say, 'Well that's settled, it's the law of the land.' No, it's not the law of the land," Huckabee said in an interview with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt.

"Constitutionally, the courts cannot make a law, they can interpret one and then the legislature has to create enabling legislation and the executive has to sign it and has to enforce it," Huckabee added.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/21/mike-huckabee-gay-marriage-supreme-court_n_6512042.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Had he been governor of Arkansas 50 years earlier, I'm sure his constituents who were interested in continued oppression of African Americans would have been delighted by that news.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 21, 2015 - 08:35am PT
"I don't understand your ramble. Could it be me or you??"

It's you.

Definitely you.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 21, 2015 - 11:44am PT
I just learned from FOX that Birmingham England is a Muslim only city run by Sharia law.


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fox-news-says-birmingham-muslim-only-city-run-by-shariah-law-1482942

I had no idea my F-Jag was built under Sharia law.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 23, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
OK, this is too funny. Where does the GOP find these people?

Joni Ernst, the latest to pop out of the GOP clown car.

The public spotlight might not prove to be Ernst's best friend. The District Sentinel, a Washington, D.C., news co-op, reports that despite her campaign pitch that her parents "taught us to live within our means," her family members collected $463,000 in federal farm subsidies from 1995 through 2009.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-sen-joni-ernst-learned-20150123-column.html
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 23, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
Mr Kos,

The guy in your photo - he ain't no Republican. He's a Democrat!

I recognize him.

http://www.southwhidbeyrecord.com/news/269610221.html

He's a crazy old f*#ker who ran for Whidbey Island Sheriff last year.

Whidbey Island - especially the south end - is full of lunatics.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 24, 2015 - 09:11am PT
Bookworm posted
war on women? who cares about genital mutilation when you've got "manspreading"?


The bookworm school of feminism where anything short of cutting off a woman's clitoris is acceptable behavior.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 24, 2015 - 03:41pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/01/24/palin-say-shes-seriously-interested-in-2016-campaign/

Palin says she’s ‘seriously interested’ in 2016 campaign

DES MOINES — Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin told The Washington Post in an interview Friday that she is “seriously interested” in running for the White House in 2016.

“You can absolutely say that I am seriously interested,” Palin said, when asked to clarify her thinking about a possible presidential bid.

Palin, the GOP’s 2008 vice-presidential nominee, said she stood by comments she made Thursday in Las Vegas to ABC News, where she first expressed enthusiasm about potentially competing for the Republican presidential nomination.

“I am. As I said yesterday, I’m really interested in the opportunity to serve at some point,” Palin said Friday, as former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum, a potential 2016 rival, looked on.


Ohpleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseopleaseoplease
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HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 24, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Even Fox has figured out that Bibi is using us for his own reelection at our expense.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 24, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
How did BiBi get off the TSA no-fly list...? Then BiBi snubs Barack..Sammy Davis Jewnior is rolling over in his grave....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 25, 2015 - 05:46am PT
It has been said that a person is truly assured of immortality when his name becomes an adjective: Newtonian, Lincolnesque, Darwinian, Freudian, Shakespearean.....

Obamanation
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 25, 2015 - 06:07am PT
Haha TGT is still mad that America is doing so much better after 6 years of Obama and despite 4 years of Republicans trying to make it horrible just to prove him wrong.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2015 - 11:58am PT
He has the best "hair."
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Jan 25, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Hillary wins in 16 and the Dems take back the Senate.

The Repups control the House until at least 2020-22

Divided government until then with no legislation passed benefitting anyone, at all.

Stick to Married with Children reruns for the next 8 years.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 25, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
Norton nails it.


"He has the best "hair."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comb-over
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 25, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
Bill Clinton was the last President to effectively deal with the opposition. He risked re-election to pass a historic balanced budget plan. That's leadership.

IMO, Hillary is much more savvy than President Obama. If she wins in '16, shell be more effective dealing with unfriendly Houses.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 25, 2015 - 02:26pm PT
Bill Clinton was the last President to effectively deal with the opposition
that's easy to do when you have some co-ed helping you!!

impeachment was a solution..
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 25, 2015 - 02:35pm PT
I didn't like Clinton when he was President. His declaration (read: bald-faced lie) to the public ticked me off. But he was a good President. He dealt with Newt & Co. He produced the first budget surplus in 25 years. The economy boomed during his time in office. All in all, he did better than most Presidents. Among the best of the modern era.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 25, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
Impeachment was the solution to soaking the American tax payers to the tune of 70 million dollars to find out Clinton got blown...Gotta love it when the fiscally conservative republicans whine about the tax and spend democrats...Hypocrites kept in power by their duped followers...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 26, 2015 - 05:49am PT
not even barry can provide a free lunch

where will barry get the money to pay for "free" community college?

by taxing college saving plans!


http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/25/college-cost-tax-federal-community-obama-money-middle-class-incentives-column/22314063/


oh, the irony...


why does barry hate parents so much?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:22am PT
cranks dream team....
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 26, 2015 - 10:05am PT
Thanks, Pyromaniac. The more those 2 geeks are in the spotlight the better for Dem's!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 26, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
The American Enterprise Institute to America:
"F*#k off and die."
During the health-care debates of 2009, Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) brought a poster on the House floor: “The Republican Health Care Plan: Die Quickly.” In the summer of 2012, when Obamacare was threatened by a presidential election, writer Jonathan Alter argued that “repeal equals death. People will die in the United States if Obamacare is repealed.” Columnist Jonathan Chait wrote recently that those who may die are victims of ideology — “collateral damage” incurred in conservatives’ pursuit “of a larger goal.” If these are the stakes, many liberals argue, then ending Obamacare is immoral.

Except, it’s not.

In a world of scarce resources, a slightly higher mortality rate is an acceptable price to pay for certain goals — including more cash for other programs, such as those that help the poor; less government coercion and more individual liberty; more health-care choice for consumers, allowing them to find plans that better fit their needs; more money for taxpayers to spend themselves; and less federal health-care spending. This opinion is not immoral. Such choices are inevitable. They are made all the time.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/end-obamacare-and-people-could-die-thats-okay/2015/01/23/f436df30-a1c4-11e4-903f-9f2faf7cd9fe_story.html

Of course the AEI's goals are more about lining the pockets of the rich. As for the poor, let them eat cake.
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Jan 26, 2015 - 03:01pm PT
Leonard Pitts in the Miami Herald nails Fox news to the wall:

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article8028834.html

Tucker Carlson said on Fox that more children die of bathtub drownings than of accidental shootings. They don’t.
Steve Doocy said on Fox that NASA scientists faked data to make the case for global warming. They didn’t.
Rudy Giuliani said on Fox that President Obama has issued propaganda asking everybody to “hate the police.” He hasn’t.
John Stossel said on Fox that there is “no good data” proving secondhand cigarette smoke kills non-smokers. There is.
So maybe you can see why serious people — a category excluding those who rely upon it for news and information — do not take Fox, well...seriously, why they dub it Pox News and Fakes News, to name two of the printable variations. Fox is, after all, the network of death panels, terrorist fist jabs, birtherism, anchor babies, victory mosques, wars on Christmas and Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi. It’s not just that it is the chief global distributor of unfact and untruth but that it distributes unfact and untruth with a bluster, an arrogance, a gonad-grabbing swagger, that implicitly and intentionally dares you to believe fact and truth matter.
Many of us have gotten used to this. We don’t even bother to protest Fox being Fox. Might as well protest a sewer for stinking.
But the French and the British, being French and British, see it differently. And that’s what produced the scenario that recently floored many of us.
There was Fox, doing what Fox does, in this case hosting one Steve Emerson, a supposed expert on Islamic extremist terrorism, who spoke about so-called “no go” zones in Europe — i.e., areas of Germany, Sweden, France and Great Britain — where non-Muslims are banned, the government has no control and sharia law is in effect. Naturally, Fox did not question this outrageous assertion — in fact, it repeated it throughout the week — and most of us, long ago benumbed by the network’s serial mendacities, did not challenge Fox.
Then, there erupted from Europe the jarring sound of a continent laughing. British Prime Minister David Cameron called Emerson an “idiot.” A French program in the mold of The Daily Show sent correspondents — in helmets! — to interview people peaceably sipping coffee in the no-go zones. Twitter went medieval on Fox’s backside. And the mayor of Paris threatened to sue.
Last week, Fox did something Fox almost never does. It apologized. Indeed, it apologized profusely, multiple times, on air.
The most important takeaway here is not the admittedly startling news that Fox, contrary to all indications, is capable of shame. Rather, it is what the European response tells us about ourselves and our waning capacity for moral indignation with this sort of garbage.
It’s amazing, the things you can get used to, that can come to seem normal. In America, it has come to seem normal that a major news organization functions as the propaganda arm of an extremist political ideology, that it spews a constant stream of racism, sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia, paranoia and manufactured outrage, and that it does so with brazen disregard for what is factual, what is right, what is fair, what is balanced — virtues that are supposed to be the sine qua non of anything calling itself a newsroom.
If you live with aberrance long enough, you can forget it’s aberrance. You can forget that facts matter, that logic is important, that science is critical, that he who speaks claptrap loudly still speaks claptrap — and that claptrap has no place in reasoned and informed debate. Sometimes, it takes someone from outside to hold up a mirror and allow you to see more clearly what you have grown accustomed to.
This is what the French and the British did for America last week.
For that, Fox owed them an apology. But serious people owe them thanks.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article8028834.html#storylink=cpy

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 26, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
Tucker Carlson said on Fox that more children die of bathtub drownings than of accidental shootings. They don’t.

Leonard Pitts should do better research.

http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.htm


Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 26, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
Say folks: I've discovered a 100% effective way to get hookworm - oops bookworm - to take his fascist crap elsewhere. It's easy...

Just hit him with a fact.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 26, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
Don't be fooled....booky doesn't go away like that. He's hit & run poster, without much dialogue.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 26, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 26, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
Any time TGT posts cartoons with young hotties & the word 'vagina' I kinda throw up in my mouth a little bit.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 26, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
Apogee: Yeah I guess you're right. He's what we call an intellectual coward up here. It seems that he and his clones are incapable of comprehending what the phrase "common decency" means. It's probably not his fault though, since I suppose his dooshe bagger - oops tea bagger handlers deduct money from his pay cheque every time he is asked to find room in his mind for anything other than moral sewage.

What cracks me up about these guys is that they actually dare to call themselves Christians when their ancestors were the very same arseholes who nailed him to the cross in the first place.

I guess the word "hypocrite" isn't in their dictionaries.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
Leonard Pitts should do better research.

How many of the drownings in your link took place in a bathtub? According to the CDC, less than 20% of child drownings are in bathtubs.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6119a4.htm

In 2002 the CPSC reported 69 cases of bathtub drowning.
https://suite.io/jenny-evans/1v7h2k1

Your link shows 167 firearm accidental deaths in 2002.

Looks like Leonard Pitts does OK with research, no?
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Jan 26, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
The clown show is in effect. Have you seen what they are debating during their first three weeks in Congress??

Instead of celebrating what many conservatives had hoped would be a moment to put Democrats on the defensive over the difficult question of terminating late-term pregnancies, Republicans again found themselves drawn into a debate about whether their party was being unsympathetic to women who have been raped.

Some Republicans expressed dismay that they were grappling with a familiar situation: how to fix another self-inflicted political wound. It has been a bumpy beginning for the new Congress. In the House, the year started with 12 Republicans voting against Mr. Boehner for speaker. Last week there was another divided vote over ending legal recognition for immigrants who entered the country illegally, many of them as children. “Week 1, we had the vote for the speaker. Week 2 we debated deporting children. Week 3 we’re debating rape and incest,” said Representative Charlie Dent, Republican of Pennsylvania. “I just can’t wait for Week 4.”
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 26, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
WBraun: Brilliant analysis. Are your jackboots nicely shined and ready for the next beer hall rally?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 27, 2015 - 05:30am PT
How many of the drownings in your link took place in a bathtub? According to the CDC, less than 20% of child drownings are in bathtubs.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6119a4.htm

In 2002 the CPSC reported 69 cases of bathtub drowning.
https://suite.io/jenny-evans/1v7h2k1

Your link shows 167 firearm accidental deaths in 2002.

Looks like Leonard Pitts does OK with research, no?

Looks like I jumped the gun on my last post. Not all drownings occur in bathtubs. I am a maroon.

The link you referenced for firearm deaths (167), also lists accidental drowning deaths (1158). You say less than 20% of child drownings are in bathtubs.

1158 x .20 = 231.6

231 vs. 167 ?

How much less than 20% is the CDC talking about?

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 27, 2015 - 05:36am PT
Edward, I don't think you're a maroon. The CDC just had a graph, I would interpolate their graph to be between 10 and 15%. The hard numbers I found for bathtub drownings was the number posted above for 2002, significantly less than the firearm deaths in you link for 2002.

Maybe by basing my thinking on only one year's worth of data I'm the maroon.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2015 - 05:40am PT
http://moonbattery.com/?p=54637


EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:03am PT
Edward, I don't think you're a maroon. The CDC just had a graph, I would interpolate their graph to be between 10 and 15%. The hard numbers I found for bathtub drownings was the number posted above for 2002, significantly less than the firearm deaths in you link for 2002.

Maybe by basing my thinking on only one year's worth of data I'm the maroon.

I did a little more digging. It turns out ol' Tucker was wrong. The Pitts article was a bit contrived. Carlson and Doocy are morning fluff boys. Their format is mindless drivel. I wouldn't consider lies/mistakes by those two very damning.

Fox News and MSNBC little more than partisan echo chambers. They serve up fodder for their flocks. CNN does better than both.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 27, 2015 - 07:13am PT
The 1790 children murdered by firearms and the tens of thousands injured by firearms are obviously less important than trying to pretend that guns are safer than bathtubs. Neither Fox News nor its listeners have ever worried about facts.

TE
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 08:38am PT
Good one!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 27, 2015 - 10:33am PT
Excellent, Locker!

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 27, 2015 - 10:35am PT
Perfect in sooo many ways.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 27, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
Koch-backed network aims to spend nearly $1 billion on 2016 elections
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/koch-backed-network-aims-to-spend-nearly-1-billion-on-2016-elections/2015/01/26/77a44654-a513-11e4-a06b-9df2002b86a0_story.html

RANCHO MIRAGE, Calif. — A network of conservative advocacy groups backed by Charles and David Koch aims to spend a staggering $889 million in advance of the next White House election, part of an expansive strategy to build on its 2014 victories that may involve jumping into the Republican primaries.

In the 2012 elections, the Republican National Committee spent $404 million, while the Democratic National Committee shelled out $319 million.



Nearly ONE

BILLION

DOLLARS.


Over TWICE as much as the ENTIRE RNC spent in 2012.


How's that Citizen's United decision working for ya, Democracy?


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 27, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
yep, we were wrong about barrycare...by about ONE TRILLION DOLLARS:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2927348/Obamacare-program-costs-50-000-American-gets-health-insurance-says-bombshell-budget-report.html


of course, $1,000,000,000,000 is "free" in libspeak (free, that is, for 27 million americans or 7% of the population)


"we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it"
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 27, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
Hookworm: I'm still waiting for you to get back to me about why you admire ISIS so much because "they have the courage of their convictions".

Flash news for the entire United States of America: prior to Obama's watered down version of taxpayer-funded health care: are you guys aware that the U.S. is/was the ONLY civilized nation on planet Earth that did NOT have a taxpayer-funded medical care system? Surely even a fascist greedhead like hookworm must agree that all of these nations are most certainly stable democracies and not some kind of "Socialist" hells with their citizens hiding and trembling beneath their beds while the secret police patrol the streets.

Obamacare is far from ideal thanks to the Republicans, but it sure beats what it replaces.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 27, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
Obamacare is far from ideal thanks to the Republicans, but it sure beats what it replaces.

Thanks to the Republicans?

How many Republicans voted for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 27, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
EdwardT: Oh. My mistake. I didn't realize that the Republicans were fighting heroically to provide ALL U.S. citizens with taxpayer-funded health care.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 27, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 27, 2015 - 02:54pm PT
That Citizens United case is working out for democracy quite well, thank you. It always seemed bizarre to me that defenders of McCain-Feingold thought that if you had enough money to buy a media outlet, you could say whatever you wanted, but if you only had enough money to rent the media outlet for a half-hour (e.g. the plaintiff in Citizens United) we had to silence you to save democracy.

It cracks me up how opponents of Citizens United (almost all left-of-center) pretend that conservative ads should be silenced, but do absolutely nothing to silence their own message. Heaven forbid that a conservative should speak on a college campus without disruption! I guess their conception of freedom of speech is that they're free to speak, and those with whom they disagree are free to listen.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 27, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
For your clarification, John:

How's that Citizen's United decision working for ya, Democracy?

Note that this does not say 'GOP'. Because if any example of anti-democracy, money-first politics can be found, it's within the conservative interests of the KochOP®.


"It cracks me up how opponents of Citizens United (almost all left-of-center) pretend that conservative ads should be silenced, but do absolutely nothing to silence their own message. "

Example, please?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 27, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
John,

I'm right of center and I loathe the Citizens United decision. My objection isn't simple freedom of speech. It's about the quantity of that speech. All other things being equal, the candidate with the largest bankroll wins. Money equals votes. And CU allows individuals (like the Koch brothers) spend as much as they want, essentially buying elections and candidates.

IMO, it's just plain wrong that a few wealthy individuals can dramatically impact the outcome of a national election.
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
Conservatives have no problem speaking wherever they want. They dominate tv news and am radio. John's hypothesis is in error. A few campus's have raises a ruckus about a right wing speaker, sure, but they have no problem getting their misguided message out 24/7.



Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jan 27, 2015 - 07:03pm PT
My god... what rock did they scrape Ms. Palin out from under? She must smoke a LOT of dope. Or worse yet, she is even dumber than Dubya. But then - I forgot - Dubya fried what passed for his brain snorting coke.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
The Koch's are small change compared to the Ruski's

Foreign Firm Funding U.S. Green Groups Tied to State-Owned Russian Oil Company
Executives at a Bermudan firm funneling money to U.S. environmentalists run investment funds with Russian tycoons


Rosneft, owned by the Russian state, is the world's largest oil company / AP

BY: Lachlan Markay
January 27, 2015 5:00 am

A shadowy Bermudan company that has funneled tens of millions of dollars to anti-fracking environmentalist groups in the United States is run by executives with deep ties to Russian oil interests and offshore money laundering schemes involving members of President Vladimir Putin’s inner circle.

One of those executives, Nicholas Hoskins, is a director at a hedge fund management firm that has invested heavily in Russian oil and gas. He is also senior counsel at the Bermudan law firm Wakefield Quin and the vice president of a London-based investment firm whose president until recently chaired the board of the state-owned Russian oil company Rosneft.

In addition to those roles, Hoskins is a director at a company called Klein Ltd. No one knows where that firm’s money comes from. Its only publicly documented activities have been transfers of $23 million to U.S. environmentalist groups that push policies that would hamstring surging American oil and gas production, which has hurt Russia’s energy-reliant economy.

With oil prices plunging as a result of a fracking-induced oil glut in the United States, experts say the links between Russian oil interests, secretive foreign political donors, and high-profile American environmentalists suggest Russia may be backing anti-fracking efforts in the United States.

The interest of Russian oil companies and American environmentalist financiers intersect at a Bermuda-based law firm called Wakefield Quin. The firm acts as a corporate registered agent, providing office space for clients, and, for some, “managing the day to day affairs,” according to its website.

As many as 20 companies and investment funds with ties to the Russian government are Wakefield Quin clients. Many list the firm’s address on official documentation.

Klein Ltd. also shares that address. Documents filed with Bermuda’s registrar of companies list just two individuals associated with the company: Hoskins, Wakefield Quin senior counsel and managing director, and Marlies Smith, a corporate administrator at the firm.

According to documents filed with Bermuda’s registrar of companies, Klein Ltd. was incorporated in March 2011 “exclusively for philanthropic purposes,” meaning “no part of the net earnings … inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.”

“The company does not propose to carry on business in Bermuda,” the documents stated.

The only publicly available documentation of any business conducted by Klein Ltd. were two Internal Revenue Service filings by the California-based Sea Change Foundation, which showed that Klein had contributed $23 million to the group in 2010 and 2011. Klein Ltd. was responsible for more than 40 percent of contributions to Sea Change during those years.

The foundation passed those millions along to some of the nation’s most prominent and politically active environmentalist groups. The Sierra Club, the Natural Resource Defense Council, Food and Water Watch, the League of Conservation Voters, and the Center for American Progress were among the recipients of Sea Change’s $100 million in grants in 2010 and 2011.

Neither Wakefield Quin nor Sea Change responded to multiple requests for more information about their relationships with Klein Ltd.

“None of this foreign corporation’s funding is disclosed in any way,” the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee wrote of the company in a report last year. “This is clearly a deceitful way to hide the source of millions of dollars that are active in our system, attempting to effect political change.”

The Sierra Club, which received nearly $8.5 million from Sea Change in 2010 and 2011, launched its “Beyond Natural Gas” campaign the following year. The effort has become one of the largest and best-funded environmentalist campaigns combating fracking and the extraction of natural gas in general.

Sea Change’s “skeletal staff quietly shovels tens of millions of dollars out the door annually to combat climate change. And that’s pretty much all it does,” noted Inside Philanthropy, which awarded the foundation its “sharpest laser focus in grantmaking” award last year.

Nathaniel Simons and his wife run the foundation and are, except for Klein Ltd., its only donors. Simons, a hedge fund millionaire who commutes to work across San Francisco Bay aboard a 50-foot yacht, also runs a venture capital firm that invests in companies that benefit from environmental and energy policies that Sea Change grantees promote.

Simons himself has ties to Klein Ltd. Several Wakefield Quin attorneys are listed as directors of hedge funds that his firm manages, and in which Sea Change has assets.

Senior counsel Rod Forrest was listed on documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission as a director of two investment funds, Medallion International Ltd. and Meritage Holdings Ltd., in which Sea Change had tens of millions invested while it received money from Klein Ltd.

Simons’ company runs the Meritage Fund. The Medallion Fund is run by Renaissance Technologies, the hedge fund management firm run by his father, billionaire and Democratic mega-donor Jim Simons. Both funds listed Wakefield Quin’s Hamilton, Bermuda, address on SEC filings.

Wakefield Quin’s Hoskins and Smith, as well as a number of other employees of Wakefield Quin, have worked in some capacity for companies or investment funds owned by or tied to Russian state-owned corporations and high-level officials in the country.

Hoskins, Forrest, and another Wakefield employee named Penny Cornell were all listed as executives of Spectrum Partners Ltd., a fund with offices in Moscow, Cypress, and Bermuda, Cornell at the address of Wakefield Quin’s offices.

According to a performance report for one of Spectrum Partners’ funds, its portfolio consisted of “Russian and CIS [former Soviet state] securities and securities outside of Russia or CIS but having significant economic or business involvement with Russia and/or CIS.”

As of 2008, more than half of the fund’s holdings were in the oil and gas sectors.

Numerous executives at Wakefield Quin have ties to Russian oil and gas companies, including Rosneft, which is majority-owned by the Russian government and in 2013 became the largest oil company in the world.

Hoskins is the vice president of a London-based company called Marcuard Services Limited, and a member of the firm’s board, according to its website.

The company’s president, and the chairman of its parent company, Bermuda-based Marcuard Holding Limited, is Hans-Joerg Rudloff. Rudloff is also a former vice-chairman of the Rosneft’s board.

Hoskins is also a director at a Bermuda-based subsidiary of Russian investment bank Troika Dialog. That firm organized an initial public offering for Timan Oil & Gas, which is run by Russian oligarch Alexander Lebedev.

The Environmental Policy Alliance, which provided the Washington Free Beacon with a copy of an upcoming report on Klein Ltd.’s Kremlin ties, said Wakefield Quin’s ties to environmental financiers and Russian oil barons merit closer scrutiny.

“The American public deserves to know whether environmentalists are attacking US energy companies at the behest of a Russian government that would like nothing more than to see their international competition weakened,” Will Coggin, a senior research analyst at the EPA, said in an emailed statement.

“In the face of mounting evidence, environmental groups are going to have to start answering hard questions about their international funding sources,” Coggin said.

The overlap between executives at firms with ties to Russian oil interests and a multi-million-dollar donor to U.S. environmentalist groups has some experts worried that Russians may be replicating anti-fracking tactics used in Europe to attack the practice in the United States.

“I have met allies who can report that Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organizations—environmental organizations working against shale gas—to maintain European dependence on imported Russian gas,” Anders Fogh Rasmussen, formerly NATO’s secretary general, said last year.

It is unlikely that the Kremlin is directly involved in doing so in the United States, according to Ron Arnold of the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise.

“If anybody in Russia is behind all the secretive Bermuda investment house and law firm action, it’s most likely some oligarch bidding against U.S. competition,” he said in an email.

Arnold, the author of Undue Influence: Wealthy Foundations, Grant Driven Environmental Groups, and Zealous Bureaucrats That Control Your Future, said that the opacity of Klein Ltd.’s involvement with the Sea Change Foundation exemplifies attempts to shield the source of donations to such groups.

“In my experience of trying to penetrate offshore money funnels for U.S. leftist foundations and green groups, I have found that Liechtenstein, Panama and Bermuda are the Big Three green equivalents of the Cayman Islands for hedge fund managers—totally opaque and impervious to my specially designed research tools,” Arnold said.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 27, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
EdwardT...You get an A for integrity...CU is a disgrace brought to America by big money...Talk about blatant corruption....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 27, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
TGT! You got the smoking gun dooooode!!!

The Commie/pinko/Russians are funding the Commie/pinko/American/anti-fracking/enviromentalist movement.

We heard it here from ewe first.

Not that any of us believe your schist.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:51am PT
[youtube=nxCVLFDGKps#t=79]

Out of country, not sure if the video is loading properly. Here's the link.
Humor for most all...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxCVLFDGKps#t=79
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 28, 2015 - 10:42am PT
Conservatives have no problem speaking wherever they want. They dominate tv news and am radio. John's hypothesis is in error. A few campus's have raises a ruckus about a right wing speaker, sure, but they have no problem getting their misguided message out 24/7.

You obviously didn't attend Berkeley when I did. As for conservative views "dominating" AM radio or TV news, how do I even test that hypothesis? How do you define "dominate?" Numbers of viewers? Numbers of outlets?

If the TV news I watch (ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS) is "conservative," I'd hate to see what you consider "balanced." My favorite example of the subtle bias of network news concerns ABC's reporting on the budget a few years ago, when defense spending was up 8% from the previous year, and non-defense up 6% from the previous year. ABC reported that defense spending was up 8%, but non-defense spending was cut 2%.

And Edward, it might well be that the side that spends the most money wins elections most of the time, but is the cause of the victory the quantity of money spent, or is the quantity of money to spend caused by the popularity of the candidate or proposition?

More importantly, though, CU was a vindication of the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech. It also was hardly an unprecedented extension of First Amendment rights, as Obama cynically claims. The First Amendment reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Surely the President was well-acquainted with New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, decided by the Warren Court more than fifty years ago, vindicating the First Amendment rights of the New York Times Company - a corporation. How is a restriction on who can disseminate their political opinions, based on the identity of the speaker, not a violation of the First Amendment?

Those who criticize CU criticize free speech, pure and simple.

As for those who would restrict conservative speech, but not anti-conservative speech, see the Democrats, who place no restrictions on speech by unions.

John

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 28, 2015 - 10:45am PT
As for those who would restrict conservative speech, but not anti-conservative speech, see the Democrats, who place no restrictions on speech by unions.

That's because unions are people, my friend.
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 28, 2015 - 07:44pm PT
I'm not sure what Berkeley has to do with anything. What I meant was conservatives flock to Fox and talk radio and dominate the markets in viewership. There is no shortage of air time for conservative media. It's nonstop. The networks do an ok job, but they are right of center, mostly. Except PBS.

So, a few colleges don't want a certain right wing speaker. It's inconsequential overall. Conservative speech being quelled? Nonsense.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Dare you to watch.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 28, 2015 - 10:21pm PT
Palin's First Amendment rights allow her to look like as big of an idiot as she wants to be.

And if you don't like it, she'll shoot you in the face.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 29, 2015 - 07:36am PT
when is foreign relations like sport climbing? when barry's on lead

barry's "smart power" is neither:

http://news.yahoo.com/raul-castro-us-must-return-guantanamo-normal-relations-194500203.html;_ylt=AwrBTzZqoMlUGLUAXWpXNyoA


yep, i'm sure that strategy will stop iran from getting nukes, too...and, now that the taliban is no longer a "terrorist organization" ( http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/white-house-spokesman-taliban-not/2015/01/28/id/621364/); i'm sure afghanistan will stabilize, too

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 29, 2015 - 09:23am PT
poor libs, now that your wrong-about-everything-hero marx has been deemed inauthentic because of his testicles, whom can you point to defend your repeatedly, historically, factually refuted beliefs?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/397448/marx-was-othering-white-male-james-lileks

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 09:48am PT
It's nice that bookworm's special ed class provides him access to the Internet.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 29, 2015 - 10:39am PT
That was one strange article. National Review must be desperate.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2015 - 11:55am PT
bookworm posted
of course, $1,000,000,000,000 is "free" in libspeak

Funny how not a single liberal ever said it would be free which is why there were actual payfors in it (the much maligned tax hikes).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/01/27/revised-cbo-outlook-shows-the-damage-wrought-by-obamacare/

On pages 128 and 129, you learn how the cost of Obamacare to the federal government is less than projected. In 2010, the CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation projected that the ACA “would cost the federal government $710 billion during fiscal years 2015 through 2019.” The agencies now report that “those provisions will cost $571 billion over that same period, a reduction of 20 percent.” The CBO says the reasons for this are many, but it highlights a key factor. “Another notable influence on the downward revision to projected federal costs is the slowdown in the growth of health care costs that has been experienced by private insurers,” the report notes, “as well as by the Medicare and Medicaid programs.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-01-27/obamacare-will-cost-20-less-than-initial-projections-cbo-says

Through 2019, the law's insurance provisions will cost an estimated $571 billion, down $139 billion from the CBO's initial estimates.

But you can keep getting your news from websites that also have headlines like
'Get out of here, you low-life scum!' John McCain goes ballistic on protesters who called for 'war crimes' prosecution of Henry Kissinger during hearing
and
Constipation, bad breath and ruined tastebuds: What flying REALLY does to your body (and how to fix it)
They seem to be serving you quite well. That one about constipation and bad breath might be really helpful I'm guessing.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 29, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
John posted
Surely the President was well-acquainted with New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, decided by the Warren Court more than fifty years ago, vindicating the First Amendment rights of the New York Times Company - a corporation. How is a restriction on who can disseminate their political opinions, based on the identity of the speaker, not a violation of the First Amendment?

A corporation entirely devoted to journalism in a case centered around freedom of the press. I'm going to guess that the NYT editorial board would not have come to Sulzberger's defense had he began insisting that dictating his employee's healthcare choices were an extension of his corporation's "first amendment rights" just as the NYT is not entirely immune from libel.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jan 29, 2015 - 10:06pm PT
American Sniper is dominating film media lately.
It's about the war people dream we had,
not the actual war.
http://www.salon.com/2015/01/26/american_snipers_biggest_lie_clint_eastwood_has_a_delusional_fox_news_problem/
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 04:01am PT
Splater wrote:
It's about the war people dream we had, not the actual war.

I thought the movie was about the moral dilemmas individuals at war face, but we all see the world through our own prisms.

Sophia A. McClennen, the author of Splater's link wrote:
"the film depicts Kyle as a hero and a martyr, the real American sniper was heartless and cruel. Rather than struggle with moral dilemmas as we see in the film, the actual man had no such hesitation and no such conscience."

What are her sources for what Kyle was thinking? She sounds bitter that the movie is doing well.
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 06:34am PT
I thought the movie was about the moral dilemmas individuals at war face,

My take, too.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Jan 30, 2015 - 09:04am PT
Since the ONLY reason the Repubs have lost the last two Pres elections is because their
candidates were not conservative enough....

their primary voters will nominate the most reliably extreme, pure, conservative

therefore

look for Ted Cruz to battle Chris Christie, with Christie taking the nomination

and pick Rand Paul as his VP

with Sarah as Secretary of State
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 09:39am PT
Darn--no Mitt.
WBraun

climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 09:46am PT
The 2016 POTUS winner is already in the bag.

It's completely rigged.

It will be another useless fool puppet that you politards can spend your next several years drooling at ......
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 30, 2015 - 09:52am PT
And the new Dem or whatever will continue down the same road. That road is paved better than any interstate in the US, however there are virtually ZERO offramps, except the few that lead to the Koch's and whatnot
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 09:56am PT
It will be fun watching Jindal, Cruz and Palin debating.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 10:39am PT
I agree..Sarah would make a hot, naughty nurse....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 11:11am PT
It will be fun watching Jindal, Cruz and Palin debating.

After the glory of the 2012 primary the RNC could raise hundreds of millions of dollars this time around simply holding weekly debates and selling them PPV to Democrats.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 30, 2015 - 11:24am PT
I was going to start a separate thread, Democrat Candidates, but I didn't want to start another political thread (even though it's a pretty interesting topic).

If Hillary runs, with there be any challengers? If she doesn't, what then? Anyway, I really like what Bernie Sanders has to say, and the way he says it.

Here's an excerpt from an article that I found worth the read:

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/01/30/sanders-focus-not-clinton-whether-2016-run-could-mobilize-masses


Separately, in an interview set to air on C-SPAN's Newsmakers this Sunday, Sanders makes it clear that his current strategy is less about targeting Clinton and much more about raising, with urgency, the issues that neither of the two major parties have proven capable of addressing: the rise of of the billionaire class, the impact of money in politics, the unprecedented threat of climate change, and a generation of wage stagnation ...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 30, 2015 - 11:34am PT
"There's nothing more entertaining than getting really high and watching GOP primary debates"...


Maybe there should be a game show, Double Jeopardy.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
Will her crib notes be written in gibberish too?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
If we are really lucky, Trump and his "hair" will run.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
Others are starting to wake the fook up. Why can't you?

http://cnsnews.com/blog/michael-morris/liberal-gw-professor-obama-guilty-violations-his-oath-office-0

Looks like the liar in chief has struck again. For people who demand so much honesty you sure have a real winner here. As you, were keep lickin Obama ass.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/29/politics/bergdahl-swap-prisoner-militant-activity/index.html



apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 30, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
Shove your generalizations up your arse, dirt claud.
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
yeah, dirtclod, he lied. He said gas would get down to $2.50/gal, not $1.99.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
"and Palin debating"...

I was unaware that she was even capable...

Palin became more incoherent than normal at the Iowa thing last week when her teleprompter broke midspeech. If that's not poetic justice I don't know what is.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sarah-palin-dishes-bizarre-improvised-rant-iowa-article-1.2091124

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
Yes, How dare I generalize a group of people who spend all day generalizing on Conservatives and patting each other on the back about how they have it all figured out and are so compassionate and care more than others could. I see you believed this liar again when he told you he was the one to lowered gas prices. Funny how when bad sh#t happens it can't be all of Obamas fault. He was duped, that's all, poor guy.
But when it something good, it was all him, he is so great and better than anyone we have ever had. He gets all the credit. Really sickening this mentality. Whatever it takes to make sure this guys facade is not exposed.
Keep up the circle jerk.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
You want a productive dialogue, dc?

Start one.

Best way to do that is to skip the generalizations.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
I was disappointed with MITt R ..today..
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
Wow, Benghazzzzzziiii...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
Jabba the Hut?
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:25pm PT
I believe he has done some good Locker. Just because I can't believe he is "all" bad. But I really don't know what that is? To me everything this man does is to spite the principles this country was founded on, and I'm not talking religion. He was raised by a man who did not like America and all it supposed "Imperialism". He listened to a pastor that was a racist and apparently that was ok, no biggie. If it would have been any white guy going to a racist church we would still be talking about it. Why does he get a pass on this? He went there because he agreed with what was said, no one forced him. He lies a lot. He is just to fkn shady for me.
I don't understand why he likes us Hispanics more than his own people. He has done nothing for the black community except create division. And he is just using us to get more votes. Nothing has changed on immigration, and blames Repubs all you want but he had two years of Dem controlled Congress and Senate. What did he do for Hispanics? Nothing. I don't like to be used and be made a fool of.
Perhaps you can enlighten me and point some good things out? If they are things I did not know about and are good for this country, not just a certain group of people.I have no problem admitting when I have been ignorant or made a mistake. I don't just dislike Obama because others do. I feel I have legitimate reasons to not like this man. I also know that he is not the only one calling the shots and that there are plenty of Repubs with the wrong agenda as well. I know my post earlier does not help, I just get ircked sometimes when I see the constant bashing and decided to post a jab. In the end I really wish we would all talk and put the ideas we have behind us. I think we really all want the same thing but are listening to others, the media, etc.. and not just talking to one another without preconceived ideas. When I'm out and I have a chance to talk to those on the other side, I do. Most of the time we find out we want the same thing but have different ideas of how to get there. I want what is best for this country no matter what. I really do hope that 20 years from now I will look back and say. "I was wrong. Obama did do a lot of good and I bought into all the BS." I would rather be wrong and admit it and have this country doing well, instead of the country really be that bad off. The party and saving face is not more important to me than the country.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
Apogee, you are the last one that needs to talk to me about generalizations. You are the king of that sh#t on this thread. This thread is not to talk to Conservatives it was created to bash them. Don't act like you don't know that.

Most Conservatives I know do not listen to Rush or just watch Fux news. Funny how you guys think posting these pics are pissing someone off. FatTrad is not here anymore, maybe he cared.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
Not sure if it is a bad thing or good thing that you all seam to think "all" Conservatives must love FUX, Rush, Palin, etc.. Guess the mainstream Lib media is working on you if you guys really believe that so much.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
Sure Locker, perhaps I will catch you out at Josh sometime and we will shoot this sh#t talking about "not politics", and share a rope :).
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
I guess I'm trying to find fault in a rebounding economy, increased health care coverage, and action on climate change.

And sorry, csn is a crap, right wing hack news source. So don't get butt hurt about Kos faux news jab.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:55pm PT
fattrad was capable of respectful dialogue, even with his strong convictions, and constant shredding from the left. Take a lesson from that, dc.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 30, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
"Not sure if it is a bad thing or good thing that you all seam to think "all" Conservatives must love FUX, Rush, Palin"

'seem'

You seem to think that all of us 'lefties' love MSNBC, Maddow, etc. Broad generalization, that.


EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 30, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
fattrad was capable of respectful dialogue, even with his strong convictions, and constant shredding from the left. Take a lesson from that, dc.

That's some double standard. You lecture DC, while making your own lowbrow posts.

Maybe you should practice what you preach.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 30, 2015 - 03:53pm PT
Maybe DC could take a few lessons on respectful dialogue from JE.

You get what you give. Make dumbass generalizations, and you get sh#t right back.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 30, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
Good post potato head....The fact that Bush was such a loser helps make Obama shine..
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
Pop quiz, dirtclod:

Is President Obama a Christian or a Muslim?
Was he born in the U.S.?
Is he a socialist?
Is he trying to creat government dependency?

Are we still involved in the 2 wars Bush started, one invading the wrong country?
Was he in office in '08 when the Great Recession started?
Was US health care the envy of the world prior to his election?
Did Bush or the current Republican congress take action on the immigration issue?
Who was president on 9/11?
Is the unemployment rate now the lowest since the Great Recession started in the Bush presidency (oops, I gave away an answer).
Has he taken away your guns and bullets?



crankster

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 06:38pm PT
I'd break that camp as fast as I could, Spud, nothing good going on there. It's a black hole.

You have more control than you think. Don't buy into the hopelessness, the despair. You make WAY too much out of a missed trip to France. Not a biggie in the long term. You think our relationship with France has soured? Nah. Btw...you hear about that attack much anymore? Bigger fish to fry.

Obama run by a few rich people/corporations? Name them. You can't. Do rich people and corporations have great political influence? Um, yes...(see history of the world).

We argee on the concentration of wealth issue.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jan 30, 2015 - 06:50pm PT
Facts to hard for republicans to disgust.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/04/1127663/-Ten-True-Facts-Guaranteed-to-Short-Circuit-Republican-Brains?detail=facebook#
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jan 31, 2015 - 03:23am PT
LMAO at the Bill Maher video. Here are some recent political jokes that jab at all sides. Hat tip to other late night comedians:


New Jersey Governor Chris Christie will begin fundraising for a potential 2016 presidential campaign. No word on what his platform will be, but experts say it will be double reinforced steel.

The IRS is warning that there could be long delays getting your tax refund this year because of budget cuts. They're expecting so many delays that they're renaming themselves the DMV.

President Obama is focused now on cyber security. He's pushing for new laws to protect companies from hackers. And who better to do that than the people who brought us the Obamacare website? Not only couldn't hackers get in, no one could penetrate it.

A Saudi Arabian prince has said that oil may never again rise above $100 a barrel. He said it's gotten so bad he can't afford to buy his wife her own car that she's not allowed to drive.

President Obama met with the president of Mexico. When asked what it's like to govern 100 million Mexican people, Obama said,'It can be challenging'.

During a recent interview, a White House adviser said Joe Biden is the reason President Obama got elected both times. Then he said, 'He's also the reason we got banned from Applebee's'.

The new congress has 104 female lawmakers. Experts say there's going to be a lot of filibusters that go: 'You know what you did.'

Democratic Senator Harry Reid is expected to make a full recovery after he was exercising with a resistance band that snapped, causing him to fall. The good news is he's fine. The bad news is there's no video of it.

Joe Biden went to Brazil in an effort to try and repair America's relationship with their government. Biden said, 'It's great to be here in the Amazon. I've always wanted to see where all the books come from.

Mike Huckabee criticized the Obamas for letting their daughters listen to Beyoncé due to her explicit lyrics. So now the Obama girls are faced with the tough choice every teen must eventually make — listen to Beyoncé or Mike Huckabee.

The RNC released its first presidential debate schedule, which includes at least nine debates in different states across the country. As opposed to the Democratic debates, which will just be Hillary staring at her opponents until they burst into flames.

New Kids on the Block announced they are going back on tour in May. Wait, the New Kids are touring, gas is at two bucks a gallon, and we may have another round of Bush vs. Clinton for president. If I get home and find a stack of free AOL CDs in the mail, then I'm pretty sure I just traveled through time.

CNN is developing a game show to be hosted by Anderson Cooper. It will be just like the other CNN shows except the contestants will make wild guesses instead of the news anchors.

The Jamaican government is considering a bill to decriminalize marijuana. But first they have to get over the shock of finding out it was illegal in the first place.
crankster

Trad climber
Jan 31, 2015 - 09:31am PT
Here's the lineup. Prediction: Bush v Clinton. Clinton by 4%.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 31, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
http://www.jammiewf.com/2015/raaaaacist-60-minutes-clown-steve-kroft-told-mistress-dont-dress-like-beyonce-was-really-paranoid-about-right-wing-zealots/
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jan 31, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
In the end, we're all equal

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 1, 2015 - 07:36am PT
Never would have thought Putin used a bidet. Figured he'd prefer a bear to lick his arse.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 1, 2015 - 09:25am PT
Now Werner is gonna want a golden toilet and bidet....Way to go Kos...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 1, 2015 - 09:39am PT
Locker ,, I think Kos was referring to the skid marks...?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 1, 2015 - 11:50am PT
Most aspects of world humanity(social, economical, environmental) continue to get worse. Long-term improvement looks unlikely. How is this possible with modern man? We continue to deal with the "devil"

Except your statement is untrue in most regards, and your underlying conclusion is wrong, as well.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 2, 2015 - 09:35am PT
I hope Ron Anderson's head hasn't exploded.
If 2014 was a good year for Republicans nationally, in Nevada it was an election for the ages.

Gov. Brian Sandoval won his second term with an extravagant 70% support. Republicans not only seized control of the Legislature — giving them full run of the Capitol for the first time since 1929 — but also staged an unprecedented sweep of statewide offices.

Sandoval then did something uncharacteristic for a Republican, especially one in a state with such a deep and abiding hostility toward government: He called for the largest tax increase in Nevada history.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-nevada-sandoval-tea-party-20150202-story.html#page=1
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 2, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
I guess if you are a friend of Barry's paying taxes is optional.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/397681/busted-jillian-kay-melchior
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 2, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
He owes a over three million In federal taxes as well.

(From that "right wing" rag, the NYT)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/nyregion/questions-about-al-sharptons-finances-accompany-his-rise-in-influence.html?_r=0
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 2, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
The "con artist" has been to the white house at least 75 times, including five private visits, and 20 or more staff meetings.

Link to WaPo fact checker.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/Rudy-Giuliani-Al-Sharpton-White-House/2014/12/30/id/615632/

since "reverend" Al claims to be his key adviser on race relations, no wonder they are at their worst since any time going back to the 60's
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 2, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
Good one^^^^

since day ONE Obama has been crying for ideas.

Events? Benghazi anyone?

now all he's talkin bout is daycare for children.

think i'll go back and stare at the pic of the Mt. instead of the words
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 2, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
Sorry, republicrats, but Huckabee is one of your'un.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/mike-huckabee-mocks-bizarre-michael-sam-call-fears-gay-economic-terrorism
WBraun

climber
Feb 2, 2015 - 07:48pm PT
All RIGHT !!!!!!

Frank Smith is Back !!!!

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
Good one^^^^

since day ONE Obama has been crying for ideas.

Events? Benghazi anyone?

now all he's talkin bout is daycare for children.

think i'll go back and stare at the pic of the Mt. instead of the words


Benghazi?

What happened in Benghazi?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 2, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
^^^Right!


Hey Dr Frank, how is it that the NFL is a tax-exempt business and the tax-payers fund the building of stadiums, then have to pay to use them? Did you know the commissioner makes 44mill a year

baseball,basketball,golf,etc pay taxes.

maybe come out of the growroom once in a while and see what's happening TODAY
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 2, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
Voters have some say over local minimum wage laws:
In November, San Francisco voters overwhelmingly passed a measure that will increase the minimum wage within the city to $15 per hour by 2018. Although all of us at Borderlands support the concept of a living wage in principal and we believe that it's possible that the new law will be good for San Francisco -- Borderlands Books as it exists is not a financially viable business if subject to that minimum wage. Consequently we will be closing our doors no later than March 31st. The cafe will continue to operate until at least the end of this year.

http://borderlands-books.blogspot.com/2015/02/borderlands-books-to-close-in-march.html

$15 bucks an hour for minimal skills ain't bad, unless you lose your job over it.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 2, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
TGT, umm, you know that focusing on Al Sharpton is a giveaway of your, umm, racial views, right? Not that it wasn't apparent.

Anyway, I'm sure when your guy (see pic) is in the WH, he won't be welcome..
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 2, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
Borderland Books...Too big to fail....What a cheap shot blaming their minimum wage workers when Amazon is the real culprit...Lame...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
^^^Right!

No, seriously. What happened?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 2, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
Prog Hero!

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 3, 2015 - 04:11am PT
good news for libs!

another opportunity to show your tolerance:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2937217/Killed-gay-Man-blindfolded-thrown-tower-block-Syria-stoned-death-SURVIVED-fall.html

i guess barry's right; we shouldn't overemphasize the threat of muslim radicals...so what's a few gay men thrown off roofs or women stoned to death when we've got hating colorado cake makers right here in 'murica?
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 3, 2015 - 06:33am PT
It's amnesia, DMT...they have already forgotten those wars. They are angling for a new one, though. Elect Lindsey Graham and just see how long it takes before he and John McCain start another one.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 3, 2015 - 07:18am PT
I predicted the new Republican Congress would immediately engage in more futile attempts to repeal Obamacare. Trying is a waste of your tax-money, but a symbolic "feel-good" ritual for them.

As if begging for a Groundhog Day joke, House Republicans will vote to repeal the Affordable Care Act again on Tuesday. It'll be the 56th shot they've taken at the law, and just like every other time they've tried to erase President Obama's signature achievement, this attempt is doomed to fail. Republicans have nowhere near the veto-proof majority they'd need to kill Obamacare

http://news.yahoo.com/why-republicans-voting-repeal-obamacare-again-110000602.html
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2015 - 09:49am PT
The ACA is costing less than predicted, and has a role in slowing the growth of medical costs.

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/2/7965911/obamacare-cost
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
Nice to see that at least one GOP senator is fighting the good fight, i.e., the regulatory burden restaurants face when big bad government requires their employees to wash their hands after taking a crap.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2015/02/03/the-next-public-health-debate-hand-washing/
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
He's a democrat?

Source?

Edit: Never mind. I found one.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 5, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
He's a democrat?

Of course he is.
Ron never goes looking for bad Republicans.
John M

climber
Feb 5, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
there aren't any bad republicans. A bad republican is automatically a democrat.. heh heh
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 5, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
F*#k. There goes the neighborhood.

This used to be such a nice thread.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
Ron has a point about Williams. I don't know if he should be canned but there is some 'splainin' to do.
John M

climber
Feb 5, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
he does have a good point, he just muddled it by adding that williams is a democrat. Liberal or conservative, lying in the media is a serious concern. One study I saw said Fox news had the highest number of demonstrated untruths in its reporting.

Of course.. this is.. the republicans versus democrats thread. So I guess each trying to one up the other should be expected. Too bad. As long as we keep that the focus, I think that we will keep being unable to solve our problems.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
a democrat, one Mr Brian Williams
You do not know this.

He embellished a story, for sure, and it's not good for him. I like him, always seemed like a straight shooter.

We should be way more concerned about all the lies from the Bush gang that got us into the war. The talk yakkers & Fox are all worked up about Brian Williams...another bunch of fake outrage.

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Feb 5, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
yes, how about focusing on those who have power to put us in a war. What were there actions when they faced draft, service, etc.? It isn't even interesting and in reality(the way I see it and I could be wrong) it is just jacking the proverbial tribal COCKamany that keeps the folks separated and therefore hella weak, no matter your side or how smart you think you are. I think it is time to get out of this isle of rice cakes, chicharones, miracle whip, tofu jerky etc. Look for commonality if you really want to move forward in a progressive manner. The last time one should remember pointing fingers and calling names they probably should be in some sort of sandbox with a swing set, slides and shet.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 5, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
They seem to seek their macho image by posing as something they never were.

Yep, toss Ryan on that heap of degenerates too.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2015 - 04:56pm PT
The pilot of a helicopter on which NBC News anchor Brian Williams flew in Iraq said on Thursday that the aircraft did take some fire in 2003, adding another twist to a story that the newsman was forced to recant and apologize for this week.

Pilot Rich Krell told CNN's Brian Stelter that Williams had some of the facts right, but did make some mistakes in telling the story.

Williams issued multiple apologies on Wednesday night for saying that he was in a helicopter that was hit by a rocket propelled grenade while covering the Iraq War in 2003. He admitted he was in a different helicopter and blamed the errors on "the fog of memory."

But Krell appeared to back up at least some of what Williams has said during repeated tellings of the story over the past decade, even if the anchor did get some things wrong. The most striking thing that Krell said was that the military helicopter Williams was riding in did in fact come under enemy fire, though it was not from an RPG.

"Some of things he's said are not true. But some of the things they're saying against him are not true either," Krell told CNN.

Their helicopter was second in a formation of three aircraft carrying bridge parts, according to Krell. The first helicopter was hit with the RPG attack, which Williams likely did not witness from his seat in the back of the chopper.

All three of the helicopters were hit by small arms fire, however, according to Krell.

"The bridge expansions we were hauling took most of the hits," Krell told CNN.

The helicopter on which Williams was riding then dropped off the bridge parts before catching up to the other two aircraft and landing.

According to CNN, Krell was not angry with Williams over his embellishments, but acknowledged that the NBC anchor made a few errors.

"Yeah, he messed up some things and said some things he shouldn't have. I [first] heard it a few years ago," he said. "Actually one of my flight engineers said, 'Did you hear him say that? Wasn't he on our bird?'"

"After a while, with combat stories, you just go 'Whatever,'" Krell added.

But the numerous versions of the story told by Williams and others leaves it unclear just how much and how often the NBC anchor embellished on what really happened.

During his 2015 version of the story, which he told on-air Friday while honoring a member of the military who was with him during the incident, Williams said the helicopter on which he was flying was hit by an RPG, but he did not specify whether any other aircraft were hit.

His most recent tale sparked backlash among crew members who were flying on separate aircraft in Williams' fleet. Crew members told Stars and Stripes that the chopper Williams was riding on did not take fire, and that he was not near the other helicopters during the attack.

Krell's version of events, as told to CNN, may explain why some crew members thought Williams was nowhere near the attack, even if he was in fact right behind the aircraft hit with RPG fire.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
How, exactly?

That is a catchy title for a song, though, Tool of the War Machine.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
Well, ok, that's a fair explanation. He's the NBC anchor.
Anyway, yes, when we went into Iraq about 70% of the American people supported it.
The Bush/Romney/Cheney propaganda machine had triumphed.
The news folks all went along. Tough to go against that tide.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx
east side underground

climber
Hilton crk,ca
Feb 5, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
+1 warbler...." a tool of the government and industry too...... I'm the slime on the video"
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 6, 2015 - 06:26am PT
fecklessness now the official "strategy" of barry's foreign policy:


http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/05/white-house-to-unveil-call-for-strategic-patience-russia-ukraine-syria-iraq-china-asia/?utm_content=buffer77659&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


crankster

Trad climber
Feb 6, 2015 - 06:36am PT
Feckless? Hardly. Whatever, I'll take it over reckless, ringworm.

Rightwing critics...got a lot of 'em. These are the folks who would have had Sarah Palin as sitting VP right now....so take their opinion with a grain of salt.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 6, 2015 - 06:40am PT
Cronkite was the Pope of News Slant, btw.

DMT

BLASPHEMER!!!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 6, 2015 - 08:19am PT
I don't care for Brian Williams, has always struck me as a smug as#@&%e. In fact, never cared for any anchor from NBC. Couldn't stand Dan Rather of CBS either...except when he was doing his surrealist/performance art pieces during presidential elections (complete with an endless stream of regional colloquialisms)

Now, having said that...
How many of you critics, have been in an active war zone? Ronald? Or even a shootout here in the states? How many volunteered to go to the sandbox? Well, Williams did. So he's already got more sack than Ron and his other critics.

Next point...eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable. Adrenaline surge, unfamiliar situations, unclear what is actually going on, a hard landing with a bunch of radio chatter about one of the birds being hit, all the soldiers around you yelling and tense and so on.

Warbler knows what's up...GE owns NBC, GE's aviation division has revenue of ~$20-25B/yr. That's a B, for Billion. It's something like 15% of GE corps revenues.

Meanwhile, you've got numpty ass dipshit Senator from North Carolina saying restaurant employee handwashing after taking a sh#t should be optional and the state shouldn't be able to mandate it. Yet another example of why Rebublicans are WRONG about EVERYTHING. Enjoy your fecal burger, Senator Dumfuk.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 6, 2015 - 09:03am PT
"Meanwhile, you've got numpty ass dipshit Senator from North Carolina saying restaurant employee handwashing after taking a sh#t should be optional and the state shouldn't be able to mandate it. Yet another example of why Rebublicans are WRONG about EVERYTHING. Enjoy your fecal burger, Senator Dumfuk."


Feck, that's priceless.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 6, 2015 - 09:33am PT


This Brian Willimas deal is lighting up the wingNUT-o-sphere. Got 'em all riled up. Perfect for the low-hanging fruit pickers.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 6, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
Cronkite was the Pope of News Slant, btw.

Oh come on, DMT! I knew he was a liberal, but he reported news objectively. I didn't get the impression that news was mere entertainment then. Maybe the news departments were better at hiding the real nature of their work then, but I think they offered much better quality information 50 years ago than now.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 6, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
Can anyone point me to the vitriolic derision from Righties when Gerald Rivera, chief war correspondent for Faux News, claimed to have prayed over the bodies of American soldiers when he was no closer than 300 miles from the site?

Haven't been able to find it myself....odd.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 6, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
Gerry Rivers is only present for comic relief.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 6, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
Well, then, he's perfectly suited to this network of faux journalists, eh?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 7, 2015 - 02:36am PT
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 7, 2015 - 06:42am PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 11, 2015 - 05:01am PT
the last (or latest?) liberal bastion of gender hatred: "women's colleges"

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/398335/womens-colleges-left-trying-decide-what-womens-college-means-katherine-timpf


so, libs, how does this figure into the so-called "rape culture" on college campuses?

consider:

let's say there is a "gender fluid" person who was born "male" (i.e. with a penis) but sometimes identifies as a female

let's say this person begins the evening identifying as a female and goes to a party and meets a lovely "female" (i.e. with the biological lady parts) lesbian and they have sex; BUT while having sex, the gender fluid female begins identifying as a male

is "he" (just recently "she") obligated to tell (warn?) the female lesbian of his/her gender change? if "he" doesn't, is "he" guilty of rape since the female lesbian did not consent to have sex with the male-identified gender fluid person but only with the female-identified gender fluid person?

if so, what happens if, during the trial, the gender fluid person identifies as a female? can the court convict "her" for a crime "he" committed? (this reminds me of my favorite line from three faces of eve when the bad girl says she goes out at night and gets drunk but lets the nice girl have the hangover the next day)

or, what if the fully female lesbian decides to "experiment" and consents to have sex with the female-identified gender fluid person BUT secretly only for "her" biological male parts? is the fully female lesbian guilty of rape since the female-identified gender fluid person consented only to lesbian sex?

or let's say both the female lesbian and the female-identified gender fluid person decide to experiment together with the male apparatus...when the male-identified gender fluid person discovers what happened with his male parts without his consent, would "he" have a right to feel violated and, if so, would "he" be considered the victim of a rape? or a gang rape since there were actually two other people involved? is it even possible that "he" was raped" since "he" wasn't actually present when the sex act occurred?


and about that "slippery slope":

http://thefederalist.com/2015/02/10/a-funny-thing-happened-on-the-way-to-the-vomitorium/
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2015 - 06:08am PT
^^^^Your fixation on this is really weird.^^^^^
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 11, 2015 - 06:45am PT
"without god, all things are permissable"--dostoevsky

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/02/11/killer-of-3-unc-chapel-hill-muslim-students-was-hardcore-anti-religion-progressive/

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 11, 2015 - 06:48am PT
barry's latest middle east success story:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/10/middleeast/yemen-unrest/index.html


http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/09/29/after-obama-touts-success-against-terrorism-in-yemen-state-department-issues-travel-warning-n1896797


and exactly who is responsible for the overthrow of a government that has been so helpful to america?



wait for it...















IRAN! of course, the guys barry wants to have nukes
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:27am PT
Next point...eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable. Adrenaline surge, unfamiliar situations, unclear what is actually going on, a hard landing with a bunch of radio chatter about one of the birds being hit, all the soldiers around you yelling and tense and so on.

That's a good point. I've read first hand accounts of rookie pilots in WWI. They would be involved in a dogfight and not even know it until they returned to base and found out from the rest of the flight. They'd think their buddies were just goofing around out of boredom.

And of course, a lot of them died without even knowing it.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 11, 2015 - 08:33am PT
Meanwhile, Kansas Gov. Sam Brownshirt tires to roll back the clock.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-kansas-governor-gay-protection-20150210-story.html

In a move that shocked progressive advocates in Kansas, the state's Republican governor on Tuesday issued an executive order to remove discrimination protections for gay, lesbian and transgender state employees.

State employees in Kansas can now legally be fired, harassed or denied a job for being gay or transgender, critics said.
WBraun

climber
Feb 11, 2015 - 08:51am PT
Your whole stupid so called democratic system is rigged and is nothing but a house of cards.

Criminals are running your system and you fools are 0wned ....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 11, 2015 - 09:23am PT
Your whole stupid so called democratic system is rigged and is nothing but a house of cards.

Criminals are running your system and you fools are 0wned ....

OK, Captain Obvious!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 11, 2015 - 10:55am PT
State employees in Kansas can now legally be fired, harassed or denied a job for being gay or transgender, critics said.

Wonder what the Log Cabin Republicans think of this?

On an associated note, inasmuch as an employer does not actually presumably know about an employees sexual habits from direct evidence, is it ok to fire someone because you think they MIGHT be gay?

Wrong hairstyle?

Wrong gait?

Wrong clothes?

Or, you want to fire them because of their religion, but actually do so citing that they are gay?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 11, 2015 - 11:09am PT
Give the President credit for doing something right. His request to Congress concerning ISIS is, in my opinion, precisely the correct way to go about dealing with this mess.

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
zzzzz...
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Feb 11, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
From the Fux News page.
'He hates us': Muslim father of NC victims says daughter had run-ins with alleged killer


I wonder what the non-Muslin father had to say.

Or how about the" M.D. father".

Why is Craig Stephen Hicks, 46, and not Craig Stephen Hicks, the atheist?

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 11, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
Kudos to the President on his decision regarding ISIS.

The IRS is obviously throwing smokescreens over their abuses. Too many loopholes combined with partisan enforcement.
They need to be abolished. Postcard tax preparations please.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 11, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
I don't know about postcard tax preparation. You know the old joke describing the ultimate IRS return:

"1. How much did you make?:___

2. Send it all in."

John
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2015 - 04:39pm PT

Feb 11, 2015 - 11:15am PT
Well, over 30K emails of Lois Lerner have been retrieved by a company. ODD that IRS could not do this very thing, but instead said they were "lost forever". Lois Lerner should go to the pen. Along with several others at the IRS.

This fake scandal was canceled for lack of interest.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2015 - 04:40pm PT

Feb 11, 2015 - 08:51am PT
Your whole stupid so called democratic system is rigged and is nothing but a house of cards.

Criminals are running your system and you fools are 0wned ....

I saw this fortune cookie, too. Very original.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 11, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
Your whole stupid so called democratic system is rigged and is nothing but a house of cards.

Criminals are running your system and you fools are 0wned ....

Question.

Who has rigged the system?
Who are the criminals?

Is everybody owned?
Who isn't owned?
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
You want details from this guy??? Forget about it. Air. Head.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 11, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
Question.

Who has rigged the system?

The capitalists.

Who are the criminals?

The capitalists.

Is everybody owned?

Not the capitalists

Who isn't owned?

The capitalists.

Werner will tell you, I think, that they are the ones most wedded to this material world.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
When you say capitalists, you really mean the Republican party, since they are owned by the Capitalists and doing the work of rigging the system for them, correct?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2015 - 07:27pm PT


This fake scandal was canceled for lack of interest.

...and lack of substance.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
You want to worry about lost or destroyed e-mails....
I guess you forgot about W. Bush's Presidential e-mails and the whole RNC e-mails being handled by Karl Rove, and when they subpoenaed him, he said they were destroyed (lost) and he refused to come before the Congressional Committee.

And what about all the Gitmo videos and transcripts being destroyed by the Bush team??

Basically they destroyed millions of documents that would have implicated any wrong doing, which is against every law on the books for the President....

Lois Lerner is Micro potatoes compared to the Bush cover-ups and crimes,
and along all the rest of the Republican hypocrisy
Lois Lerner hasn't been convicted of any crime, she didn't even do anything wrong, it's all right wing fear mongering and displaced blame.
She was a F*#king Republican trying to protect her tips against Chuck Grassley, a f*#king corrupt Republican, everything you guys have said about this case has wrong. look it up.


Can you comprehend the concept of perspective.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
Speaking of credibility and the bush team: Brian Williams now stands as the only public figure punished for lying about the war...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
Karl Rove is STILL in contempt of congress rong

and now he's running a multi-million dollar criminal operation helping Republicans get elected

Perspective??

The Lois Lerner comtempt is a Darrel Issa Joke, just like the all of the RNC

If you were able to find out every fact that Lois Lerner knew, what difference will it make, Obama was not involved, and liberal organizations were scrutinized just as much as the degressive Tea baggars and other conservatives

Which ones were non profits?
Is Karl Rove's PAC a non-profit?
He claims it is, so he doesn't have to disclose his donors
Maybe his donors are all Saudi Princes and the Bin Laddens?, or Chinese hoping to buy America?
Do you know who they are?

We do know one thing, they are the big money capitalists wanting to influence our Government using their money.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 11, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
Oh no...presidential candidates raise tons of cash. Never knew!!!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Feb 11, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
Good to see she has the backing of some solid corporations. Better follow the smart money...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 11, 2015 - 08:08pm PT
Did Frank Smith get banned..? Somebody must have complained to the attack duck...?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 11, 2015 - 09:36pm PT
When you say capitalists, you really mean the Republican party, since they are owned by the Capitalists and doing the work of rigging the system for them, correct?

Dr. F, the capitalists are buying the Democrats, too, if you haven't noticed already. Obama has hardly been a champion of the people. He talked like FDR in his first campaign, but morphed into Bush lite.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 12, 2015 - 05:36am PT
Perfect, DMT.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 12, 2015 - 05:43am PT
Got a pension fund, comrade?

I do, or did, tovarisch. The private equity people who managed Wonder Bread/Hostess into the ground, while at the same time lining their pockets with raises and bonuses, have reduced it by a third so far. By the time I start drawing it I imagine there won't be much left. Every year lately it is reduced by "market forces."

Yeah, I'm pissed. I worked hard for that pension in the bakery, spent my 20s and 30s there. It was good steady, honest work. Imagine that. Hindsight,being 20/20, tells me that actual work isn't the smart thing to do in this country. Better to be some sort of financial con man, stock broker, banker, preacher, etc.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 12, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Henry A. Wallace

Henry A. Wallace-Townsend, (October 7, 1888 – November 18, 1965)

He was the thirty-third Vice President of the United States (1941–45), the eleventh Secretary of Agriculture (1933–40), and the tenth Secretary of Commerce (1945–46). In the 1948 presidential election, Wallace was the nominee of the Progressive Party.

"The Danger of American Fascism," in New York Times, April 9, 1944

The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power.
...
If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. Most American fascists are enthusiastically supporting the war effort.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 12, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Wallace was a communist nut case that Roosevelt finally had to fire in favor of Harry Truman for VP.

(when in congress he once rode a horse up the capital steps as a publicity stunt)

Then the next election cycle he ran as a socialist against Truman.


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2015 - 01:59pm PT
I'm sure he could also tell you exactly where he was, and what he was doing, the exact moment he found out Hussein Obama failed to put down his latte to salute a Marine.

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 12, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
"The Danger of American Fascism," in New York Times, April 9, 1944

Four months later, the incumbent Vice President was off the ticket.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 12, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
According to Wallace's definition of "Fascism" in the quote, it sounds like either political party could be called fascist.

In the Wikipedia section, the historians are even at odds on how to define it and where to put it on the political spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

As a bemused libertarian observing the quasi religious fervor of hard core partisans, I would say the "fascist" card is as overdrawn as the "race" card.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 12, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 12, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
It's nice to have some of the old posters back. Particularly nice to read Craig's return, and I'd missed seeing Norton for a while, too.

John
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 12, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
^^
Well, the tedious, little Mr. Sunshine has upped the O2 level in his bunker and learned a new word.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 12, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
History repeats itself.



Good to see you back ,Craig,posting on YOUR thread.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 12, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
The Danger of American Fascism
By Henry A. Wallace

The New York Times, Sunday 09 April 1944

On returning from my trip to the West in February, I received a request from The New York Times to write a piece answering the following questions:

What is a fascist?
How many fascists have we?
How dangerous are they?

A fascist is one whose lust for money or power is combined with such an intensity of intolerance toward those of other races, parties, classes, religions, cultures, regions or nations as to make him ruthless in his use of deceit or violence to attain his ends. The supreme god of a fascist, to which his ends are directed, may be money or power; may be a race or a class; may be a military, clique or an economic group; or may be a culture, religion, or a political party.

The perfect type of fascist throughout recent centuries has been the Prussian Junker, who developed such hatred for other races and such allegiance to a military clique as to make him willing at all times to engage in any degree of deceit and violence necessary to place his culture and race astride the world. In every big nation of the world are at least a few people who have the fascist temperament. Every Jew-baiter, every Catholic hater, is a fascist at heart. The hoodlums who have been desecrating churches, cathedrals and synagogues in some of our larger cities are ripe material for fascist leadership.

The obvious types of American fascists are dealt with on the air and in the press. These demagogues and stooges are fronts for others. Dangerous as these people may be, they are not so significant as thousands of other people who have never been mentioned. The really dangerous American fascists are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power.

If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. Most American fascists are enthusiastically supporting the war effort. They are doing this even in those cases where they hope to have profitable connections with German chemical firms after the war ends. They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead.

American fascism will not be really dangerous until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information, and those who stand for the K.K.K. type of demagoguery.

Silll another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion. American fascists of this stamp were clandestinely aligned with their German counterparts before the war, and are even now preparing to resume where they left off, after "the present unpleasantness" ceases:

The symptoms of fascist thinking are colored by environment and adapted to immediate circumstances. But always and everywhere they can be identified by their appeal to prejudice and by the desire to play upon the fears and vanities of different groups in order to gain power. It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice. It may be shocking to some people in this country to realize that, without meaning to do so, they hold views in common with Hitler when they preach discrimination against other religious, racial or economic groups. Likewise, many people whose patriotism is their proudest boast play Hitler's game by retailing distrust of our Allies and by giving currency to snide suspicions without foundation in fact.

The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy. They use isolationism as a slogan to conceal their own selfish imperialism. They cultivate hate and distrust of both Britain and Russia. They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection.

Several leaders of industry in this country who have gained a new vision of the meaning of opportunity through co-operation with government have warned the public openly that there are some selfish groups in industry who are willing to jeopardize the structure of American liberty to gain some temporary advantage. We all know the part that the cartels played in bringing Hitler to power, and the rule the giant German trusts have played in Nazi conquests. Monopolists who fear competition and who distrust democracy because it stands for equal opportunity would like to secure their position against small and energetic enterprise. In an effort to eliminate the possibility of any rival growing up, some monopolists would sacrifice democracy itself.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_ed_encho_080306_henry_a__wallace_s_w.htm
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 12, 2015 - 04:31pm PT

Hating Good Government
JAN. 18, 2015
Paul Krugman

It’s now official: 2014 was the warmest year on record. You might expect this to be a politically important milestone. After all, climate change deniers have long used the blip of 1998 — an unusually hot year, mainly due to an upwelling of warm water in the Pacific — to claim that the planet has stopped warming. This claim involves a complete misunderstanding of how one goes about identifying underlying trends. (Hint: Don’t cherry-pick your observations.) But now even that bogus argument has collapsed. So will the deniers now concede that climate change is real?

Of course not. Evidence doesn’t matter for the “debate” over climate policy, where I put scare quotes around “debate” because, given the obvious irrelevance of logic and evidence, it’s not really a debate in any normal sense. And this situation is by no means unique. Indeed, at this point it’s hard to think of a major policy dispute where facts actually do matter; it’s unshakable dogma, across the board. And the real question is why.

Before I get into that, let me remind you of some other news that won’t matter.

First, consider the Kansas experiment. Back in 2012 Sam Brownback, the state’s right-wing governor, went all in on supply-side economics: He drastically cut taxes, assuring everyone that the resulting boom would make up for the initial loss in revenues. Unfortunately for his constituents, his experiment has been a resounding failure. The economy of Kansas, far from booming, has lagged the economies of neighboring states, and Kansas is now in fiscal crisis.

So will we see conservatives scaling back their claims about the magical efficacy of tax cuts as a form of economic stimulus? Of course not. If evidence mattered, supply-side economics would have faded into obscurity decades ago. Instead, it has only strengthened its grip on the Republican Party.

Meanwhile, the news on health reform keeps coming in, and it keeps being more favorable than even the supporters expected. We already knew that the number of Americans without insurance is dropping fast, even as the growth in health care costs moderates. Now we have evidence that the number of Americans experiencing financial distress due to medical expenses is also dropping fast.

All this is utterly at odds with dire predictions that reform would lead to declining coverage and soaring costs. So will we see any of the people claiming that Obamacare is doomed to utter failure revising their position? You know the answer.

And the list goes on. On issues that range from monetary policy to the control of infectious disease, a big chunk of America’s body politic holds views that are completely at odds with, and completely unmovable by, actual experience. And no matter the issue, it’s the same chunk. If you’ve gotten involved in any of these debates, you know that these people aren’t happy warriors; they’re red-faced angry, with special rage directed at know-it-alls who snootily point out that the facts don’t support their position.


The question, as I said at the beginning, is why. Why the dogmatism? Why the rage? And why do these issues go together, with the set of people insisting that climate change is a hoax pretty much the same as the set of people insisting that any attempt at providing universal health insurance must lead to disaster and tyranny?

Well, it strikes me that the immovable position in each of these cases is bound up with rejecting any role for government that serves the public interest. If you don’t want the government to impose controls or fees on polluters, you want to deny that there is any reason to limit emissions. If you don’t want the combination of regulation, mandates and subsidies that is needed to extend coverage to the uninsured, you want to deny that expanding coverage is even possible. And claims about the magical powers of tax cuts are often little more than a mask for the real agenda of crippling government by starving it of revenue.

And why this hatred of government in the public interest? Well, the political scientist Corey Robin argues that most self-proclaimed conservatives are actually reactionaries. That is, they’re defenders of traditional hierarchy — the kind of hierarchy that is threatened by any expansion of government, even (or perhaps especially) when that expansion makes the lives of ordinary citizens better and more secure. I’m partial to that story, partly because it helps explain why climate science and health economics inspire so much rage.

Whether this is the right explanation or not, the fact is that we’re living in a political era in which facts don’t matter. This doesn’t mean that those of us who care about evidence should stop seeking it out. But we should be realistic in our expectations, and not expect even the most decisive evidence to make much difference.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 12, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
The Duck is in a happy place. Whatever he has, I want. Including his climbing powers.

+ many, Moose!

John
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 12, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
Wallace in wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_A._Wallace

An interesting man who was ahead of his time in some ways, with many varied interests and expertises.
Seems that his religious background gave rise to his more progressive theories.

His description of fascists seems to be one of many. I'm still not sure exactly what a fascist is, but I do know that fascists are bad.
Maybe another definition of fascist would be someone I disagree with and want to discredit.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 14, 2015 - 09:43am PT
Once again, fuktard Republican reactionaries (Hi Rong!) are wrong:



The pilot of a helicopter on which NBC News anchor Brian Williams flew in Iraq said on Thursday that the aircraft did take some fire in 2003, adding another twist to a story that the newsman was forced to recant and apologize for this week.

Pilot Rich Krell told CNN's Brian Stelter that Williams had some of the facts right, but did make some mistakes in telling the story.

Williams issued multiple apologies on Wednesday night for saying that he was in a helicopter that was hit by a rocket propelled grenade while covering the Iraq War in 2003. He admitted he was in a different helicopter and blamed the errors on "the fog of memory."

But Krell appeared to back up at least some of what Williams has said during repeated tellings of the story over the past decade, even if the anchor did get some things wrong. The most striking thing that Krell said was that the military helicopter Williams was riding in did in fact come under enemy fire, though it was not from an RPG.

Keep that Klown Kar rolling, Rong.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 14, 2015 - 09:50am PT
True That^^^^^^^^^^.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 14, 2015 - 10:13am PT
The Brian Williams story was orchestrated by the Republicans?

I thought it was about Sgt. 1st Class Joseph Miller calling BS on Williams' "war story".


pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 19, 2015 - 09:29am PT
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Bioshield_Act


History will tell it truth be told which president did a good job!
Liberals hate bush but bush was thinking when he created BARDA!

Ebola vaccine thanks to Bush!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 21, 2015 - 10:09am PT
barry's plan for bibi's speech to congress?

offer his own speech explaining to the american and israeli people his goals and strategy for iran?

of course, not, which tells you everything you need to know about barry's goals and strategy

nope, here's his plan:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/d5b82fdc7cc0474ba335667e2c6820d2/unwelcome-mat-white-house-tries-counter-netanyahu-visit


for you libs who refuse to read anything that doesn't begin with "obama akbar", here's a video version of barry's strategy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92gP2J0CUjc


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 21, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
"Once again, fuktard Republican reactionaries (Hi Rong!) are wrong:"

I'm gonna miss having ECIYA around.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 21, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
"But when that bleeds into virtually every topic, when the grown ass men with an intellect of an ADHD 6 year old run riot in every thread, when whiners with no affiliation with climbing (oh, sorry, they hiked up the backside of a peak once) are allowed to dictate what is acceptable on this forum, when drive-by-trolls are allowed to remain....yeah, you can have it."
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 21, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 22, 2015 - 06:48am PT
"we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it"

http://www.kutv.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/New-babies-uninsurable-due-to-health-care-marketplace-fumbles-86986.shtml#.VOnrvBxnccN


why do libs hate poor children so much?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 22, 2015 - 08:09am PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 22, 2015 - 08:19am PT
Book...7 out of 10 Americans are satisfied with ACA...That's 70% of the American people..We are a country based on majority rule which means you are in the minority ... if the your party was truly interested in representing the voters , they would work with the Dems to fix what's wrong with the ACA...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:11am PT
RJ - Where are you getting your information?

Based on the polls at Real Clear Politics, support is around 40% and opposition is at 50%.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:20am PT

yes indeed...

80% of Americans believe in Angels
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-nearly-8-in-10-americans-believe-in-angels/



so Sketch, you were banned

why come back when the Administrators don't want you?

crankster

Trad climber
Feb 22, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 22, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Feb 23, 2015 - 06:12am PT
why do lib women, especially powerful lib women like hillary, hate women so much?


http://freebeacon.com/politics/hillary-clintons-war-on-women/


oh, the irony...
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 06:50am PT
Ha! - He read it in the Free Beacon! No wonder you're so clueless, ringworm.

Hey, have you read the editor's last book....
"The Persecution of Sarah Palin: How the Elite Media Tried to Bring Down a Rising Star (2009)"

Perfect.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 23, 2015 - 06:58am PT
http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/22/media/cbs-staffers-oreilly-argentina/index.html


Oh gawd, the deliciousness of it all!

It's awesome when Bill O'Retard gets egg on his face.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 23, 2015 - 07:22am PT
It's awesome when Bill O'Retard gets egg on his face.

He'll get a slap on the wrist. Move on.

His detractors will be talking about this for years.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 23, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Oh I fully understand that nothing will happen to him.

He works for Fox after all. Their specialty is making sh#t up.


Now Rudy G. is backpedaling, so that's good news
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 23, 2015 - 08:20am PT
Now Rudy G. is backpedaling
more B.S!

he's not backpedaling he's firm on his words..

I hope this thread gets deleted!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 23, 2015 - 08:30am PT
he's not backpedaling he's firm on his words..

My blunt language suggesting that the president doesn’t love America notwithstanding, I didn’t intend to question President Obama’s motives or the content of his heart. My intended focus really was the effect his words and his actions have on the morale of the country, and how that effect may damage his performance. Rudy Guliani

Obviously, I cannot read President Obama’s mind or heart, and to the extent that my words suggested otherwise, it was not my intention. When asked last week whether I thought the president was a patriot, I said I did, and would repeat that. I bear him no ill will, and in fact think that his personal journey is inspiring and a testament to much of what makes this country great.


Sorry bro, that's backpedaling.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 23, 2015 - 08:38am PT

He'll get a slap on the wrist. Move on.

be awesome if you'd follow your own advice


so Sketch, you were banned

why come back when the Administrators don't want you?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_simplex


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 23, 2015 - 09:39am PT
Sketch got banned?

Anybody know why?
John M

climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 09:54am PT
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/john-mccain-im-ashamed-country-151537077.html

didn't Michelle Obama get raked over the coals for saying basically the same thing, that she wasn't proud of america for its treatment of blacks?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 23, 2015 - 10:09am PT



Don't watch this if you don't have the balls to watch Big Bill O' called on the carpet, right to his face.



[Click to View YouTube Video]
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Feb 23, 2015 - 10:27am PT
https://www.facebook.com/eric.j.engberg/posts/10204873374051471

"Doyle was stunned. First O'Reilly had defiantly ordered a cameraman to disregard his orders on using lights, and now he was claiming the right to do a story the producers had decided should be done by the senior correspondent on the scene, Schieffer. This confrontation led the next day to O'Reilly being ordered out of Argentina by the CBS bosses. Doyle had told them O'Reilly was a "disruptive force" who threatened his bureau's morale and cohesion."

"He is misrepresenting the situation he covered, and he is obviously doing so to burnish his credentials as a "war correspondent," which is not the work he was performing during the Falklands war. I don't think it's as big a lie as Brian Williams told because O'Reilly hasn't falsely claimed to be the target of an enemy attack, but he has displayed a willingness to twist the truth in a way that seeks to invent a battlefield that did not exist. And he ought to be subject to the same scrutiny Williams faced. He also ought to be ashamed of himself."
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Feb 23, 2015 - 10:49am PT
From Daily Kos:
"Because this guy [Billbo] really has problems, here's a clip (start at 2:37) of Bill O'Reilly saying how badly he was wanted by pro-football leagues by "leading the nation in punting" and for being "undefeated" on his college football team his senior year. This despite his college not having a football team. Also, he's so awesome the Mets wanted him as well."

[Click to View YouTube Video]
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 23, 2015 - 11:24am PT
The former mayor further criticized the president for admitting that the United States tortured people in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, because it "undermined those who managed successfully to protect us from further attack

okay survival maybe just a little...

r.i.p Bob simon.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Feb 23, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 23, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
no, he's just another factually ignorant Republican
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 23, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
In the interests of equality and diversity:
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Feb 23, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
Regarding Giuliani's remarks, that had to be the last thing Scott Walker wanted to be dragged into.

Either Giuliani was trying to cut him off at the knees or he's getting senile.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 24, 2015 - 06:11am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 24, 2015 - 08:02am PT
If you want to get to the facts of what's going on
To hear someone speak truth to power, someone not being paid off by anyone.

Then you should listen to Thom Hartmann


http://www.thomhartmann.com/

He is on Sirius Radio Ch 127
and on Freespeech TV, check your listings

I dare anyone to find something he is wrong about.
WBraun

climber
Feb 24, 2015 - 08:04am PT
He is on Sirius Radio Ch 127
and on Freespeech TV, check your listings

I dare anyone to find something he is wrong about.


I can't hear radio, there's no captions!

So everything is WRONG ......
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 24, 2015 - 08:26am PT
werner craig is thoughtful of others...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2015 - 04:34pm PT
Hussein Obama is the best Mullah in Chief we've ever had.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 24, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
From reading this forum thread from time to time I see that many here truly believe that nothing a republican ever says could be right. I also know that illegal immigration is not a simple issue, and presidential authority ebbs and flows with the times.
Here is a part of a speech given on the Senate floor today by republican Jeff Sessions. I am curious on what points would he be wrong?

A number of things have been happening today with regard to the funding of the Department of Homeland Security. There’s been a lot of spin about that and that somehow the Republicans are blocking the funding of the Department of Homeland Security. This gives new meaning to the word “obfuscation,” I suppose, or “dis-ingenuousness.” The truth is, the House of Representatives has fully funded the Department of Homeland Security. It’s provided the level of funding the President asked for. It’s kept all the accounts at Homeland Security as approved through the congressional process. It simply says, but, Mr. President, we considered your bill, this amnesty bill that will provide work permits, photo IDs, Social Security numbers, Medicare benefits. You can’t do that. We considered that and rejected it. So we’re not going to fund that.

Now, the President has told us and his staff that they have across the river in Crystal City, they’re leasing a new building and this building is going to hire a thousand workers, paid for by the taxpayers of the United States, part of Homeland Security. Are those thousand workers going to be utilized to enforce the laws of the United States? Are they going to process applications for citizenship or visas? No. Those 1,000 people, costing several hundred million dollars, in truth, those people are going to be processing and providing these benefits to people unlawfully in America…

So Congress says, wait a minute, we didn’t authorize money for that. You can’t spend money to fund exactly the opposite of what we’ve enacted. So we’re just going to put some language in the bill, the normal bill that funds Homeland Security, and say you can’t spend the money to violate the law. You can only spend the money to enforce the law, like you were supposed to do. And the bill comes to the Senate and what spectacle do we have? We have the Democratic members in lockstep unity blocking even proceeding to this bill. And they contend that we’re not funding Homeland Security. Can you imagine that? …

Congress is a coequal branch. It’s not subordinate to the President. If anything, the Constitution provides even more power to the legislative…. The most power in Congress is the power of the purse. Congress is not obligated to pay for anything it believes is unwise, and it has an absolute duty not to fund anything that’s unconstitutional or illegal, which is what we’re dealing with here. So the House of Representatives acted wisely, properly, funding Homeland Security and not allowing activities to be carried out that are unlawful and that Congress has rejected…

How my colleagues have the gall to come to the floor, have a press conference this afternoon, and blame Republicans for shutting down Homeland Security is beyond me.

Now, there are some even on the Republican side that say, “Oh, gosh,” you know, “The President will blame us even if it’s not our fault and we might as well cave in and give him what he wants.” But what he wants is something he can’t be given. What he wants is for Congress to capitulate and erode its powers and responsibility. He wants Congress to violate its duty, to fund something that is illegal and contrary to Congress’s wishes. He can’t demand that. He has no right to demand that.

So Congress cannot fund—cannot, must not fund—an illegal action in hopes that another branch of government will intervene. Now, I say that because some have said, “Well, a court has ruled in Texas that a part of this action by the President is unlawful.” The court was narrow in its decision… I would point out that the Texas court’s injunction addresses only a part of Obama’s lawless actions and could be lifted at any time.

We should stand up for Congresses in years to come, for our children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, and defend the power of the purse and defend the integrity of this Congress. …

I think that Senate Democrats and the President must answer why they believe funding executive amnesty and unlawful immigration policies would make this country safer. They say, “Well, you won’t pass a Homeland Security bill like we want it, you’re not making America safe.” I say that their policies eviscerating law enforcement are making America less safe.

We want to fund fully Homeland Security. We want the laws enforced. We don’t want to spend money from Homeland Security to eviscerate the law of the United States and undermine immigration law in America, and we don’t want to fund an unlawful action by the President.

One of the things that was done in this executive amnesty that’s been too little commented on, when the President signed these orders in November, is another policy, another program that has not been authorized by law that would add several hundred thousand new workers to our country… Now, the H-1B program was set up for certain individuals to come and work for three years and then extend maybe another three years, …and it does allow the spouses to come, but since its beginning, it barred spouses from working, or else we were doubling the number of workers. So this [executive action] now just up and approved the ability of spouses of H-1B workers to work. The United States Citizenship and Immigration Service estimates—and I’m reading from [their release], “the number of individuals eligible to apply for employment authorization under this rule could be as high as 179,600 in the first year and 55,000 annually in subsequent years.” …

Well, what if your child wants a job? What if you want a job? What if your spouse wants a job and is looking at a job and now we’ve got another, what, 250,000 job applicants, contrary to law?

The first thing we should do is be focusing on getting jobs for Americans that are unemployed. Are we going to keep Americans on welfare and benefits while we bring in more and more foreigners to take jobs when we’ve got Americans ready and willing to take those jobs?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2015 - 09:08am PT
A lot of it is a load of crap.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2015 - 11:16am PT
WTF, you actually believe stuff that lands in your in-box?
http://web.archive.org/web/20080801043405/http://azconservative.org/Semmens118.htm
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 25, 2015 - 11:22am PT
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 25, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
Larry, you appear to be unaware that we live in a post-Constitutional republic.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 25, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Apparently the Republicans think holding the Country Hostage is Constitutional.

I never read that it's OK to use extortion to get your way when you don't have the votes in the Constitution.

What Obama did by deferring the millions of being deported was completely legal according to the Constitution, unfortunately, the Repubs lie about completely and call it amnesty and all other kinds of BS..

What the Republicans are doing would be the same as the Dems sending GW Bush a bill that would only keep the Gov. open if he pulled all the troops out of Iraq.

What would have Bush done?

Is holding the Gov. hostage a proper way of Governing?
Is it Constitutional?

The Repubs filibustered more bills in the last 6 years than ever before, there obstruction will come back to haunt them.
Now they want to be bi-partisan?? I can hear all of America saying the chorus in unison "You Senate Republicans Can GFYS"

They have done and continue to do everything in their power to Destroy Obama no matter what he does, it's a despicable demonstration hate and small mindedness.

I call that Un-Patriotic
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Feb 25, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 25, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
More Unconstitutional Polices started by Bush

Wire tapping!!!

This is new, very new and very disturbing.
Only Thom Hartmann has talked about it, the mainstream media won't touch this.

It appears that anyone can buy something called a "Stingray", which acts as a portable Cell Tower.

The police have been buying them by the scads and setting them up along the highway, or down the street of a crack house etc...
and can listen in to every Cell Phone that comes within range


As a public service announcement, don't talk on your phone about things that you don't want the police to hear, especially while driving

Now we know why so many folks are getting picked off.. we are being listened to not just by the Feds, but also local law enforcement.

Thanks BUSH
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 25, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
John wrote:
Larry, you appear to be unaware that we live in a post-Constitutional republic.

Yeah John, it is troubling how executive orders seem to be trumping a legislature overwhelmingly voted in to oppose those policies.
We also have a justice department that is highly politicized combined with a compliant press.

Having said that, I would love to see Bush's worst legacy abolished, and democrats shouldn't get a pass on it.
Homeland security, was a bipartisan and terrible kneejerk reaction to Sept. 11.
It is a huge waste of federal funds.
It's disaster preparedness and responses are poor.
Law enforcement agencies are way too militarized.
Surveillance culture in the U.S. gets bigger every year.

Immigration is another story and a difficult situation. I'd go after employers, don't harrass those here. But if we're a nation of laws, which separates us from most countries, let's enforce them, or rescind them. Should illegal immigration remain illegal?
I know many immigrants who waited in line, did the right thing and were proud when their citizenship or work visa's were accepted. I must admit that if I was living in squalor down South, I'd try to get here to work also. Go after the employers, but don't open up all social services to those who cut in line.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 25, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
Larry
you display a sick sense of anti-patriotism and a blatant disrespect for the President
which makes you just another tool for the right wing hate media.
I'm sorry that you drank the kool aid.
Does that make you feel better? spreading lies about Obama?

The rest of us Un-tainted by the propaganda are doing just fine thank you

legislature overwhelmingly voted in to oppose those policies.
By 23% of the population?? That was not overwhelmingly.

No, it was bought and paid for by the Big Buck Fascists
Similar to a coup, impose the party with the least votes upon the people. They have no idea what they voted for or didn't vote for.

Dems received 10s of millions of more votes than the Republicans last election, but the Repubs won the majority anyway, they rigged the system, minority rule by forced imposition.

I just can't figure out why someone would Support these Right Wingers after everything they have done?
The only answer is Brain washing, and we all know they have the best brain washing techniques known to man working 24/7 on every media outlet.

Thanks Conservatives, you really screwed us once again.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 25, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
Senate Democrats got 20 million more votes than Senate Republicans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/01/05/senate-democrats-got-20-million-more-votes-than-senate-republicans-which-means-basically-nothing/

I guess facts equal fantasy to some
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
Wade Icey...Clean up on ailse 5...The Chief...
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 25, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
Craig,
I know you are passionate about politics and I do not question your motives or character, and wish my climbing was on your level.
However, when it comes to those who thrust themselves into the public arena, it's fair game. Wasn't it fair game for you with the last president? It was for me then, it is for me now.
Didn't you question authority in your youth? I did then, and I do now.

What I find interesting about the left is that it WANTS to be counter-culture, but:
They own the universities. They own Hollywood. They own the music industry. They own the media. They own the unions. They own the government employees. They own the high tech industries.
And They're going to 'stick it to the man' by agreeing with all of them?

Now when I am traveling and get to watch TV, I watch liberals like Bill Maher and John Stewart. The most hilarious movie scene of all time may the the puppet sex of "Team America". I find them all hilarious, and they skewer both sides.
But because they don't skewer the current administration as much, I will step in where you won't.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 25, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
Barry Sorreto and mister Heinz believe that by their charms they can talk the Persians out of procuring nukes.

Meanwhile they build full scale models of our carriers to practice their peaceful intentions.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
Too bad The Chief wasn't on board...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 25, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 25, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
Oh man, all the wingNUTS are on board tonight.

They post inane photos from rightwing blogs, but NEVER post anything regarding policy. Like their counterparts in congress they are devoid of ideas, clueless how to govern.

Affordable Care Act bad! Our alternative....(silence)
Immigration action bad! Our alternative....(silence)
War against terror bad! Our alternative...(silence)

Soon, the Republican class of '16 will take the stage. Then we'll see. Hear Trump might join. Gonna be fun.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
I am curious if any of the conservatives can interpret the bold part of the Constitution:

Section. 2.

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

What are the limitations on this power?

By the way, do the strict constructionists allege that the presence of the word "HE" means that a woman is not eligible???
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
Chief, you are ignoring the very simple question that I asked. What are the limitations on the President's Constitutional Pardon power?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 25, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
Pyro - LOL! Good one!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 09:50pm PT
The reason that I ask is that I was listening to a radio program tonight, in which three conservative lawyers stated that they did not believe the SCOTUS would overturn the Obama action.

However, they did not state why.

To me, this Constitutional power seems to have virtually no limitation (except must be a federal law, and not impeachment)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
And again, I ask you what is the limitation on his Pardon authority. You state "he must", but I don't see anything that allows you or anyone else to place any limitation upon his legal Constitutional right to pardon anyone he likes, in anyway that he likes.

Or is there some limitation? So far, you haven't cited any.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:06pm PT
Chief, I appreciate that you probably never have cause to interact with Constitutional lawyers, so don't have the option to ask them questions.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
Chief, you might find the comments on the issue by the Heritage Foundation illuminating. As you know, Heritage is one of the most conservative institutions in America. They say:

The power to pardon is one of the least limited powers granted to the President in the Constitution. The only limits mentioned in the Constitution are that pardons are limited to offenses against the United States (i.e., not civil or state cases), and that they cannot affect an impeachment process. A reprieve is the commutation or lessening of a sentence already imposed; it does not affect the legal guilt of a person. A pardon, however, completely wipes out the legal effects of a conviction. A pardon can be issued from the time an offense is committed, and can even be issued after the full sentence has been served. It cannot, however, be granted before an offense has been committed, which would give the President the power to waive the laws.

So, as your hypothetical, yes, any President can issue a pardon to anyone convicted of a crime.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
Wade Icey...Clean up on ailse 5...The Chief...

LOL RJ

He will probably be disappointed but gotta say I've developed a grudging respect for the Chief in all his whackadoodle, wingnut glory. Hopefully Vice versa. He comes from a place of honesty and has the courage of his convictions. however misguided. He's authentic. He's nuts. He's living his dream. He's a climber, A vet, a fisherman and a rescuer.... and he's wrong about everything.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
Chief Justice John Marshall in United States v. Wilson (1833) also commented on the benign aspects of the pardon power: "A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the individual, on whom it is bestowed from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed. It is the private, though official act of the executive magistrate...." Another purpose of the pardon power focuses not on obtaining justice for the person pardoned, but rather on the public-policy purposes of the government.

The public-policy purposes of the pardon were echoed by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in Biddle v. Perovich (1927): "A pardon in our days is not a private act of grace from an individual happening to possess power. It is a part of the constitutional scheme."

Presidents have sought to use the pardon power to overcome or mitigate the effects of major crises that afflicted the polity. President George Washington granted an amnesty to those who participated in the Whiskey Rebellion; Presidents Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson issued amnesties to those involved with the Confederates during the Civil War; and Presidents Gerald R. Ford and James Earl Carter granted amnesties to Vietnam-era draft evaders.

chief, was Washington and Lincoln, Ford and Carter wrong, and commit unconstitutional acts????
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
YOU were the one who said they had been convicted by a jury of their peers.
But it doesn't matter:

A pardon can be issued from the time an offense is committed,

Note that the members of the confederacy were NOT citizens of the US---they had succeeded from the Union. They were citizens of the Confederacy, a foreign country. They were not convicted of a crime.

And yet, Lincoln pardoned them.

You are saying that Lincoln was wrong??????
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
In order to do so, they must first be legal citizens of the US unless the crime which they committed is violent in nature.

Gosh, if that is so, how did the US convict Manuel Noriega, who was NOT a citizen. Noriega was tried on eight counts of drug trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering in April 1992. He was convicted, and served 7 years until deported to France for trial.

So he was NOT a citizen, and was NOT tried for a violent crime.

In fact, he was not even in the country!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
I knew you'd be disappointed. Don't worry I'll delete it and deny it later.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
-----No. Those individuals were above were all CONVICTED Ken.

Wrong, they were not.

-----What was the supposed crime/s that Lincoln pardoned them confederates of?

Treason


-----Not one of these five million illegal immigrants have been convicted of anything. They can't be. That is according to the law that Obama is attempting to change.

Agree that they have not been convicted. However, they are still entitled by the Constitution to due process, and found to violate the law, before a sentence of deportation can be carried out. If pardoned, that sentence cannot be carried out. Neither can a sentence of incarceration.

So I claim to a sheriff that you are an illegal. You claim that you are not, but can't instantly put your hands on your birth certificate (you are fishing). Are you saying that you do not have a right to a trial before deportation? You are not allowed to present your side of things? You cannot be convicted?

Remember that the Constitution guarantees that you are innocent until proven guilty IN A COURT OF LAW.

Didn't you watch The People's Court????
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
As Justice Stephen Field wrote in Ex parte Garland (1867),

"If granted before conviction, it prevents any of the penalties and disabilities consequent upon conviction from attaching [thereto];

if granted after conviction, it removes the penalties and disabilities, and restores him to all his civil rights; it makes him, as it were, a new man, and gives him a new credit and capacity....

A pardon reaches both the punishment prescribed for the offence and the guilt of the offender....so that in the eye of the law the offender is as innocent as if he had never committed the offence."
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
he stated over and over that he is not authorized to do such a thing, legally per the constitution?

Chief, I cannot find any quotes or videos of him saying that. I find lots of wingnut sites that SAY he did, but they don't have links to anything, either.
Perhaps you can provide something that backs up your statement.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2015 - 10:45pm PT
And Ken, that pardon came with specifics that each individual had to agree to in writing. It was not a Carte Blanc pardon.

You are referring to Lincoln. And that is exactly the case with the pardon that Obama issued. There are conditions.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:46am PT
In other words, you're a RINO.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 07:29am PT
Sure thing, Dave.

You regularly post that you're a registered Republican. Yet, your voting record and comments indicate you clearly do not support Republican positions.

Here, you use your voter registration as a tool (or an excuse) to undermine conservatives.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 07:46am PT
The Republicans are out preforming our wildest expectations in bringing back our Country from the Obama ruin....

They've been so active in fixing the economy, creating jobs, repairing our infrastructure, investing in the future.

Let's see, what have they done, sent a bill to build the Keystone XL Pipeline (after refusing to use American Steel or put an 8 cents tax per gallon paid to the Gov).
The Pipeline has not passed it's environmental review or cleared legal issues concerning the land rights.

This is nothing more than Congressional Over reach since only the State Dept. can approve the pipeline, not a Congress in bed with Corporations that will directly benefit from the Congressional actions.

Now they want to shut down the Homeland Security Department in a hissy fit.

They gave away a climbing area in Arizona to a Foreign mining Company.

They took out provisions in Dodd/Frank so Wall Street can once again bring down the economy while they get rich.

They voted to appeal Obamacare again


What else??
Fight the President at every turn and say he doesn't Love America!
Plan on Impeachment of the President, since they hate him.

Is that all they got?
What happened to all their promises about jobs??
Where are the jobs??

Here are the facts, there will be no jobs until we get rid of the Repubs that want us to fight over jobs to keep wages low.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 26, 2015 - 07:57am PT

Republic did help create an Ebola vaccine!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 26, 2015 - 07:59am PT
Mr Fry, I suggest you do some reading of economics. Raising wages doesn't create jobs.

That said I am horrified by the Repubs' antagonism to Janet Yellen, the hottest babe out there.
I am more horrified by the Repubs' two bills before Congress: the "Audit the Fed" and the
other one, heretofor unnamed, which would require the Fed to adopt a rule that would govern
its decisions on setting interest rates. Just what we need, professional Congressional morons
telling the Fed how to go about its business. More incredibly why was this deemed to be
third page business section news by the LA Times? Oh, pardon me, I forgot that an NFL
stadium article is more worthy of being on the front page.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 26, 2015 - 08:00am PT
Crankster,
Yes it was a civil discussion and not being a lawyer, I enjoyed the conversation concerning pardons. I would love to hear John E's take on this. He is always informed and civil, one of the best commenters on these political threads.

It does appear that a pardon is possible. It is what it is. Even though illegal aliens are technically breaking the law, I don't think anyone here views them as criminals.
A pardon still would not entitle them to all of the freebies afforded to citizens, and enforcing immigration laws by going after employers would not be impeded. This would be the humane path.

Having said all that, there is the issue of employment numbers in this economy. Even though unemployment numbers are down, the number of Americans working full time is down also. Craig is really good at coming up with these numbers quickly. With a flood of cheap unskilled labor coming in, this will conflict with one of the presidents prime constituencies. Wages in the construction trades have been supressed by cheap immigrant labor. Probably has always been the case, but this will have some affect on the presidents legacy, which seems to be important to him and the press.

OK, I bumped a political thread to the top, now I need to repent and bump the great Kichatna thread above this one.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2015 - 08:18am PT
I didn't leave the Republican Party, it left me.

-Dave Kos (?)
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 08:19am PT
You misspelled "troll"

Thanks for your honesty.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2015 - 08:19am PT
Reilly, the fed oversight bill would likely get vetoed.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2015 - 08:21am PT
Craig, we should count our blessings. I don't think either of us would be happy to see the republicans actually get something done.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Feb 26, 2015 - 08:27am PT
I can't do this by myself.... that isn't democracy.... that's not how democracy works

Obama is talking about the inability of any president to change the law on his own in your short clips mashed together above.

And he's still not changing the law!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 26, 2015 - 08:38am PT
dirtybag, if Obama does nothing else in the next two years vetoing that nonsense would be
good enough for me.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 26, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Thanks for your honesty.

should try it sometime.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Reilly
I read the Economist, I'm not very impressed with it, leans way right.
But what have they been talking about lately?

The Failure of Austerity to provide any economical benefits to a country.
You cannot cut your way to prosperity, fact.

Raising the minimum wage on the other hand has been proven to stimulate the economy, create jobs and improve the general welfare of the people.

It's a simple formula:
give workers at the bottom end more money, which they spend, which creates demand, which creates jobs etc.

The minimum wage has been raised many times by Republican Presidents in the past and sold as a economic stimulus plan.

All the past Republican Presidents had no problem stimulating the economy with huge cash stimulus plans, cash giveaways, and raising the minimum wage.

Why is it so demonized now?
Mostly because the propaganda has raised to a fever pitch that it will kill jobs, raise prices etc,

But the fact is, the Repubs don't want the economy to improve because that would let Obama have a win,
and since they vowed to destroy Obama, they will rather let the economy suffer.

The Congress could approve one of the Democratic Job Bills that would put millions to work Now! They won't, they call it a job killer.
Every problem can be solved by Congress, they refuse to solve any real problems.
That's what you get when you vote for Republicans, they lied to you with their promises of this and that. Instead you get digression into a third world country by their actions


Scorched Earth Politics
Let the people die, we have taken a vow to destroy our President, that's all that matters, right?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 26, 2015 - 02:25pm PT
Hillary wins in 2016 and the Dems take back the Senate, Repubs have too much to defend

Doesn't much matter as no meaningful legislation to benefit the middle class will be passed with the House in control of the Republicans.

The Dems won't get the House until at least 2020 at the earliest, gerrymandering works...

And that should be the end of Republican national influence, their base is rapidly aging
and the young vote overwhelmingly Democrat

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 02:40pm PT
The Obama derangement syndrome will seamlessly transform into Hillary derangement syndrome

And unfortunately we will have to wade through the piles of lies fabricated to make it OK for them to destroy her

They will take the same vow, work against our Country's President just because they have zero actual Governing policies that the people want.

It's all about division with a constant barrage of lies.
Divide the country, the folks on one side basing all their knowledge on lies
with the other side fighting a losing battle by presenting facts.

How can you fight against lies that have embedded as Truth?
You can't,
because they don't want to hear the truth, they will just deny any facts
facing the facts as truth would destroy their precious delusional belief system,


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2015 - 02:55pm PT
For the first several years of his presidency, Obama seemed a bit naive about the intentions of republicans. He thought he could work with them. But from the get go, Republicans have devoted their efforts to crushing him.

One advantage to Hillary is that she has already been through the right wing wringer during her husband's presidency and during her tenure as Secretary of State. I think she would enter the White House prepared to govern, and deal with republicans, accordingly.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 03:02pm PT
And that should be the end of Republican national influence, their base is rapidly aging and the young vote overwhelmingly Democrat

After the 2006 election, Dems were making the same predictions.

"The Republican Party is in its death throws."

"Stick a fork in 'em."

Eight years later, the Republicans made unprecedented gains in Congress.

The GOP isn't going anywhere. Especially, with the Citizens United ruling intact.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
Ed
how much do they pay you per post?
Or is it per hour?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Feb 26, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
Sketch, you are painfully ignorant, not to mention ChrisMac not wanting you back here.

Because of your ignorance you confuse mid term elections with the every four year
Presidential general elections.

For example, last November's mid term elections was the lowest turnout in 70 years
thus the result was largely meaningless, your optimism for anti-Democrat future results
is childishly misplaced.

You are way over your head on this thread, stick to blabbering your nonsense elsewhere.



Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 03:24pm PT
Norton, you are painfully ignorant, not to mention ChrisMac not wanting you here either because all you are is a stupid politard.

Mind your own fuking business you stupid creep and tool .....
what a sad world WB must live in
his only connection to the real world is nothing more than being a hateful troll

Norton has never had a problem with CMAc
My only problem with the Admin. was complaining about trolls

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
Ed
Why won't you ever answer a direct question?
While you're at it, tell us why you post here at all?

You can tell a true climber from a troll so easily, they never answer direct questions.

It's about avoidance and diversion.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
Ed
Why won't you ever answer a direct question?
While you're at it, tell us why you post here at all?

You can tell a true climber from a troll so easily, they never answer direct questions.

It's about avoidance and diversion.

I do.

For amusement.

You say you want civil discourse, yet you you do your own part to drag it down.

Civil discourse is a two way street.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
I must of missed them Ed
If you could entertain my misgivings,
please go ahead and answer them for me now

What ad homs?
asking a question that you won't answer is an Ad hom?

Ask me any question?
Please... there isn't a question in the universe that I won't answer
Please ask...

That's the difference


and for my buddy WB
I complained about a total of 4 trolls to admin
LEB, SkipT, Sketch and one unmentionable that still trolls here on ST,
and it's certainly not you that I ever wanted banned

I love the crew of the wackos that provide such great entertainment value
if you only knew
WBraun

climber
Feb 26, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
These guys a hypocrites to the almighty max.

The thread title is an insult and troll from the start.

Such tools making their stupid whiny bitch claims that we don't troll and our posts are civil.

You start the thread off by insulting and trolling.

Then cry like girls to admins.

So laughable and so stupid .....
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
I just did.

You asked two questions. I answered them.

I ignored your questions about pay because they seemed like trollery.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 04:52pm PT
Well to back on topic.

Thom Hartmann has had a discussion going for a week now, and there hasn't been a single example of a real answer of yes to the question

What have Conservatives enacted as law or a policy that has benefitted America since day one???

And since the Dems were the conservatives until 1970, you can't use Party affiliation to answer this question.

it turns out every positive thing that has been done for America was enacted by Progressives or liberals.
Lincoln, Teddy R. and even Eisenhower were progressive liberals. Fact.

Wasn't it the Conservatives that wanted to stay as Colony of England?
yes it was

The Conservatives have been against every major positive change this Country has ever gone through,
and happen to be the actual cause of every major problem we now endure.

They try to revise History to divert from their failure, but the facts just don't back up any of their claims
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 26, 2015 - 05:39pm PT
Chief, I watched your video, and can understand that you don't understand what the President is saying.

I can't do this by myself.... that isn't democracy.... that's not how democracy works.

Those words to not refer to the issue of legality, it refers to how things SHOULD work.

I can easily imagine you on a ship making the same argument to your staff when they are not doing their jobs. (except for the democracy part!).

How many times has he practically BEGGED for the Repubs to vote on comprehensive immigration reform. 1 or 2 thousand?

In another country, he'd have dissolved the parliament, and formed a new gov't.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 26, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
Chief, I'm also surprised, as a military man, that you have to repeatedly ask me about clearly treasonous act. Taking up arms against the US?

What they hell do they teach NCOs???
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula

Feb 26, 2015 - 05:26pm PT
Remember Sketch?

He was a sad character. We don't know anything about him, except that he seemed to have no joy in his life and that he needed this forum to lash out at others from a veil of anonymity.

I always pictured some late-middle-aged balding dude in a double-wide collecting welfare checks - or even worse ... healthcare subsidies!

Let's all take a moment to reminisce and have a robust laugh at the sorry character behind the Sketch avatar.

All this because I pointed out your hypocrisy?

So you're a RINO. So what?

Don't let these silly, little internet exchanges get you so pissy.

Life's too short.

Have a nice evening.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
it turns out every positive thing that has been done for America was enacted by Progressives or liberals.
Lincoln, Teddy R. and even Eisenhower were progressive liberals. Fact.

Lincoln was a Constitutional Conservative, So was Eisenhower.

"progressive" Teddy R. was a raging racist and a big fan of the eugenics movement.

The grand daddy of "progressives" Woodrow Wilson, used the executive action that totalitarian "progressives" so admire to segregate the federal civil service that that been integrated since reconstruction. His son in-law (a bit of nepotism there) took it as far as to erect screens in the offices so his white buddies wouldn't be offended by the sight of black coworkers.

In an other action he re-segregated the military too.

"Progressive" is just another name for a Fabian Socialist that thinks he is superior, knows it all, and should be dictating.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
Teddy R. was a raging racist and a big fan of the eugenics movement.

So I guess you can't use Teddy R. as a model Republican anymore.

Please show us the any proof that Lincoln and Eisenhower were Conservatives
The facts say the exact opposite.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
TR was not a "model Republican"

He started his own third "progressive" party.

The present day Republican establishment is filled with the same brand of rent seekers that control the Democrats.

The only difference between the two is the pockets being lined.

(often it's the same pockets)

Smoke another bowl Locker.

You need it.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
wow
this google search
eisenhower progressive quotes
proves TGT wrong again 1000 times over


There are a thousand more for TGT, please take your time in reviewing the material


and for a reference of where the Conservatives were 50 years ago
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
Eisenhower believed in the Constitutional limits of his office.

"Progressives" see the Constitution as an inconvenience to be ignored, circumvented and if they had their way abolished.

Starting with the bill of rights.

"Progressives" (really Marxists with a slower fuse) believe that your rights are granted by government.

bow down to your betters Serfs!


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
Thanks for the entertainment TGT
You really know how to present the wacko side of the issue while acting as a complete wacko without knowing that you are the wacko!!

Please, tell us more
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:38pm PT
Thanks for the entertainment TGT
You really know how to present the wacko side of the issue while acting as a complete wacko without knowing that you the wacko!!

When in Rome...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
LOL TGT if you think Obama is trying to be "King" you sure don't have a clue what Lincoln did. If you hate Obama you really should hate Lincoln.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
Thanks for posting my post again Sketch
What's the point?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 06:42pm PT
BTW, not voting in lock-step with one's party registration is only called hypocrisy in the Limbaugh crowd.

It's not about voting straight ticket. It's about (you) consistently voting against your party for the last decade and pretending to still support the party.

Hypocrisy.

Sad.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 26, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
This awesome.

Both Poseur Republicans have their cycles synced.

Easy boys. It'll pass.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
Percentage of people that are delusionally brainwashed
69% of Republicans

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 27, 2015 - 11:45am PT
Tronald Dump..
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
I think it was Jay Leno who once said something like:
"Only two man made objects can be seen from outer space. The great wall of China, and Donald Trump's hair".
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
Craig Fry wrote:

Raising the minimum wage on the other hand has been proven to stimulate the economy, create jobs and improve the general welfare of the people.

It's a simple formula:
give workers at the bottom end more money, which they spend, which creates demand, which creates jobs etc.

Craig,
I'm no wizard on economics (how's that for a straight man setup), but if this simple formula really works, why not give workers at the bottom even more? Is there a point where the simple formula stops working? Who determines that point and how do they reach that figure?

This could be called trickle up economics. Maybe it works great. In that case, I say bump the minimum wage up to $50 / hour and let's get this economy rolling.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 27, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
Good point Larry... We have a minimum wage law for the masses...Now we need a maximum wage law where the government limits how much a CEO earns..Fair is fair , right...?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
And who would be the arbiter of a maximum wage? Be careful what you wish for
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 27, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
And who would be the arbiter of a maximum wage?

I'll do it.
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
Blame the beatniks & hippies!! Don't laugh, this guy is a Republican hero.
Phil Robertson is very concerned about the rate of sexually transmitted infections in America.

Robertson, one of the stars of A&E's "Duck Dynasty" who was suspended from the show in 2013 after making anti-gay remarks, appeared Friday at the 2015 Conservative Political Action Conference to accept the Andrew Breitbart Defender of the First Amendment Award from Citizens United.

Addressing the annual gathering of conservatives, Robertson hit on a number of popular right-wing talking points, including his allegiance to the Bible and his disdain for House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio). The speech took a turn, however, when the "Duck Dynasty" patriarch began lamenting the United States' high incidence of STIs.

"You lose your religion, according to John Adams, and there goes your morality. We're almost there," Robertson said. "I hate to admit I got my facts from the CDC the day before yesterday, 110 million, 110 million Americans now have a sexually transmitted illness."

Robertson was citing a 2013 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention analysis that found 110 million men and women currently have sexually transmitted infections.

"I don't want you, America, to get sick," he continued. "I don't want you to become ill. I don't want you to come down with a debilitating disease. I don't want you to die early. You're disease free and she's disease free, you marry, you keep your sex right there. You won't get sick from a sexually transmitted disease."

According to Robertson, the "beatniks" and "hippies" are to blame.

"There is a penalty to be paid from what the beatniks, and it morphed into the hippies -- you say, what do you call the 110 million with the sexually transmitted illness -- it is the revenge of the hippies! Sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll have come back to haunt us in a bad way."
Then Robertson said "stand on the Bible, stand on the Constitution. Hold on to your weapons."

"We had to have all three to run the Brits back to where they came from, we had to have all three when the Nazis reared their head. 'You say, the Nazis: World domination is what Hitler had on his mind. Territorial conquest. There was no Jesus. None. And they were famous for murder."

Robertson yelled "was there any Jesus among the communists? None!" Robertson then likened the Nazis to the Islamic State.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
Gary,
LOL. But judging by the name of your "home" of choice, would that make us all equally poor?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 27, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
The minimum wage should be set so the worker doesn't need Government subsidies to live if he/she working a full time job.

It's simple formula.

It's not random nor near high enough to live a middle class life.

Do you think the Government should subsidize these workers because the Company won't pay them enough.

Wouldn't you rather your taxes didn't pay for Wal-Mart profits



The Homeland Security Agency is about to be shut down because the Repubs can't get the votes to keep it open.

Shut er down!!!
What a way to Govern: using threats, extortion, and defunding crucial services for America all because they can't get their way.

What happened to Democracy, I thought you needed the votes to change laws.
When did we start using threats against the President's authority to change policy?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 27, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
I was having this discussion on the Bill O'Reilly thread, but should continue here.


Please answer this simple poll question.

Name one thing that the Conservatives have done for America that has been a good thing for our Nation or people.
A law, a policy, a movement

So far, the poll hasn't been able to come up with a single good thing.

You can't use Party affilation for this question, since the Dems were the Conservatives until the 50/60s.

And.. telling us about the bad things that Dems did is Not Answering the question, that's a diversion from the answer.

Please tell us all about the great Conservative Solutions that have provided jobs, services, education, a balanced budget??

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
Good points Craig.
There should be minimums. CEO pay is also troubling in this age of poor ethics. But historically minimum wages were entry level jobs and not defined as middle class.
If a person tries to support a family on minimum wages, well I would say there would be tremendous motivation to develop marketable skills. Otherwise a minimal government safety net should be provided, which has been the case for some time.
I'd be wary of bureaucrats dictating how a private company conducts legal business.

However,
I do think that Fabian socialism will be what the.voters will tend to over time. I also wonder how liberty's definition will change over that time
Liberty and security are a zero sum equation.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 27, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Someone needs to stand against the totalitarians.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 27, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
Someone needs to tell TGT that the Totalitarians are the Conservatives.

Always were

Right Wing = Conservatives

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 27, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
Yep, gutless and complicit for the most part,

(Except for 51 of them today)
crankster

Trad climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 04:58pm PT
Louie = Tea Party Nut. TGT, you've gone off the far rightwing, extremist deep end. Gone Boy.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Feb 27, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
I'll take democrats any day over the existing republicans now in office.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 27, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
It's Crazy!!

Every positive benefit ever enacted by the Government that made America AMERICA!!!
has been promoting by the liberal progressives, and opposed by the Conservatives

Is it that Black and white???
Apparently,

one side embedded in Big Buck Propaganda schemes

The other side fighting a losing battle presenting the facts in the face of Huge Money media campaigns trying to persuade the public with misinformation

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 27, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
Power abhors a vacuum. Think on that Republicans. Start doing your job or you will continue to be pushed aside.

There is work to be done and someone will do it even if they have to find the limits of their authority to do so.

Obstruction is a weak and and futile strategy. If your only identity is the opposition of someone then you are merely a shadow. Bringing only nothingness to the table.

I would greatly welcome honest conservative efforts to truly serve the people who elected them.

What is the republican healthcare plan? What is their immigration plan? what is their stand on internet freedom? What are their foreign policy ideas? How do they wish to balance the budget and promote the economy? How do they intend to serve the people?

By serve the people meaning actually doing things that make their lives better?

Do they believe that is their job?

If not why should we hire them?

What do you do when your fellow employee won't do his job on the project... you end up doing it for them..because the job must get done.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Feb 27, 2015 - 06:39pm PT

Every positive benefit ever enacted by the Government that made America AMERICA!!!
has been promoting by the liberal progressives, and opposed by the Conservatives

Craig, I agree with the sentiment, but I respectfully think you might have misplaced a few words.

Here's how I would have written it:


Every positive benefit ever enacted by the Government that made America A GREAT PLACE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF ITS CITIZENS has been promoted by the liberal progressives, and opposed by the Conservatives
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 27, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
Ah' yes another example of fine "progressive" governance!

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/exclusive-chicago-rating-downgrade-could-end-swaps-deals-174532024--finance.html
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 27, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
"TGT, you've gone off the far rightwing..."

Gone off the far rightwing?

TGT doesn't know any other reality than the far right wing.

He's about as WRONG as any Republican could ever be.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 27, 2015 - 10:16pm PT
well I would say there would be tremendous motivation to develop marketable skills.

Would you say that is true for those with an IQ of under 100?

Is there some limit as to where people should be required to pull themselves up by their bootstraps?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 27, 2015 - 11:51pm PT
Hey Ken,
I kinda answered your question.
"If a person tries to support a family on minimum wages, well I would say there would be tremendous motivation to develop marketable skills. Otherwise a minimal government safety net should be provided, which has been the case for some time."

I don't think anyone advocates throwing the disadvantaged to the wolves. That is one of the situations that social welfare services are for.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 28, 2015 - 08:23am PT
The minimum wage will always be lower than what the middle class wages should be.

A functioning "Middle Class" is not a natural occurrence in a Capitalistic or Authoritarian system, it has to be created by Government intervention.

Higher tax rates for the higher tax brackets, lower taxes on the working class, high Corporate taxes, lot's of Corporate regulations, high tariffs, no off shoring jobs, no offshoring cash, lot's of Gov. jobs working on the infrastructure, free education, lost cost health care, etc.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 28, 2015 - 08:27am PT
Please answer this simple poll question.

Name one thing that the Conservatives have done for America that has been a good thing for our Nation or people.
A law, a policy, a movement

Interstate Highway System
NASA

Clean Air Act
Clean Water Act
OSHA
EPA
Ended US involvement in Vietnam

Ended the Cold War
1986 Immigration Reform Act

Reaganomics
Some economists have stated that Reagan's policies were an important part of bringing about the second longest peacetime economic expansion in U.S. history. During the Reagan administration, the American economy went from a GDP growth of -0.3% in 1980 to 4.1% in 1988 (in constant 2005 dollars), averaging 7.91% annual growth in current dollars. This reduced the unemployment rate by 1.6%, from 7.1% in 1980 to 5.5% in 1988. A net job increase of about 21 million also occurred through mid-1990. Reagan's administration is the only one not to have raised the minimum wage. The inflation rate, 13.5% in 1980, fell to 4.1% in 1988, which was achieved by applying high interest rates by the Federal Reserve (peaking at 20% in June 1981). The latter contributed to a relatively brief recession in late 1981 and early 1982 where unemployment rose to 9.7% and GDP fell by 1.9%.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 28, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Interstate Highway System
NASA

Clean Air Act
Clean Water Act
OSHA
EPA
Ended US involvement in Vietnam

Ended the Cold War
1986 Immigration Reform Act

None of these are considered to be Conservative Ideas, they are liberal progress.
The current Conservatives have defunded or tried to eliminate most of the above


Reaganomics
Voodoo economics that trickled up trillions from the Gov. and the working class. It was easy for them to make it look like it was working because they were running up billions in debt stimulating the economy.

So many regulations were gutted that it will take a century to undo all the damage these Reaganites did.

What has been the cost? $17 trillion in debt, high unemployment, low wages and one of the highest wealth disparity in the civilized world!!

We still live in the world of Reaganomics, it hasn't gone away, the tax rates are still the same, we'll still giving away Gov. money to profiteers and starving it of funds so it can't do it's job.



I guess the question has to be more specific
What Conservative plan, law or policy has been good for our Nation?

Telling me about Conservatives instituting liberal policies doesn't answer the central point of the question.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 28, 2015 - 10:10am PT
Locker...LMAO
I couldn't read the name on the record, hope it was disco
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 28, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
Hey Ken,
I kinda answered your question.
"If a person tries to support a family on minimum wages, well I would say there would be tremendous motivation to develop marketable skills. Otherwise a minimal government safety net should be provided, which has been the case for some time."

I don't think anyone advocates throwing the disadvantaged to the wolves. That is one of the situations that social welfare services are for.

Larry, I'm going beyond vague statement, and using something very specific, which you did NOT answer.

I would interpret your answer as meaning that you would consider those with an IQ of less than 100 to be disadvantaged, and eligible for the safety net, as the cannot be expected to provide well for themselves??
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 28, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
US University enacts Christian Sharia Law:

“Therefore, the Erskine community is advised to practice humility and prayerfulness when engaging in any conversations or other actions related to these topics. Erskine’s conduct policies and procedures seek to uphold biblical standards, promote repentance and grace, and point people to Jesus Christ.



“As a Christian academic community, and in light of our institutional mission, members of the Erskine community are expected to follow the teachings of scripture concerning matters of human sexuality and institutional decision will be made in light of this position.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/02/27/south-carolina-college-bans-homosexuality-after-two-volleyball-players-come-out-as-gay/?tid=hybrid_linearcol_3_na
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 28, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
Chief,

I've not seen you give any definitive answer to the question of whether there is any legal limitation on the President's Constitutional pardon power??

You've tried a couple of "bait and switches", but I think those have been effectively knocked down.

Do you agree with the Conservative lawyers I heard on the radio, that the Supreme Court is very unlikely to decide against the President??
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 28, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
US University enacts Christian Sharia Law:

Sharia law? What happened to the openly gay students? Were they beheaded? Stoned to death?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 28, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
Ken,
I am not a policy wonk or expert in how well low IQ individuals provide for themselves.
Sometimes I do wonder if IQ tests for voting should be implemented...
But then I consider my own standing. ;-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 28, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
Well, Larry, I'm guessing that you don't know that by the way IQ testing is designed, 1/2 of all test takers are below 100.

100 is the artificially designed average.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 28, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
100 is the artificially designed average.

No, 100 is the mathematically defined MEDIAN. The average is a little below 100, since there is an upper limit on how smart people can be, but no limit to how dumb they can be.

TE
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 28, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
Ken,
I did not know 100 was average, or the median.
I suppose they're not disadvantaged.
But then it does sound like they're pretty near Romney's 47%.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2015 - 08:17am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 09:08am PT
What are Conservative values?
Well if you look at action rather than talk, you would come up with a list like this;

Anti-Abortion, Anti-women's rights, Anti-birth control, Anti-LGTB, Anti-minority, Anti-legal immigration, Anti-equality, anti-science, anti-education, anti-public services,

Pro Military, Pro increasing the military spending, militarization of our Police, Militarization of out Borders, more public Surveillance

Lower tax rates for the rich, higher taxes for the low wage earners,
lower taxes for big Corporations, More Monopolistic Corporate Takeovers, more Free Trade deals with China and who ever, so we can off shore more jobs

Spend less on public education, make college expensive, keep Grads in debt,
pay teachers crap wages
Don't invest in the infrastructure, don't create jobs, refuse to take any action that will improve our economy

Get rid of the EPA and allow big Corps to pollute all they want, or at least give a special exemption for the Koch bros to skirt all regulations.

Privatize SS and Medicare, repeal ObamaCare, eliminate food stamps, eliminate the safety net, defund the Gov. etc.
Make America a Christian Theocracy.

There are a lot more Great Conservative values I'm sure, but when you vote for Conservatives, this is what you are voting for.

You may like your Conservative Congressman, he may be his own person and not sold out, and he has good ideas or whatever. It doesn't matter, John Boehner runs the show and is running the Republican Party for his puppet Masters, and you will get what they want, not some of what the lowly smart guy with good ideas wanted.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 09:40am PT
As an example of how the MSM has swayed way to the right without any backlash or exposure.

This issue of "The Economist" has an endorsement article about Scott Walker as a great Presidential candidate.
He squashed unions, lower taxes on the rich blah blah

Now he wants to cut $300 million a YEAR from their State University Programs.
because you know, all those University of Wisconsin Madison liberals are protesting his conservative agenda..
and Cutting $300 million is Good thing for the economy, right???

Years ago, Bill O'Reilly said the Madison students "commune with Satan"

Now what is not bias about giving Scott Walker credentials as a viable candidate, and then several other articles that rip on Obama and Hillary.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 1, 2015 - 10:00am PT
100 is the artificially designed average.

No, 100 is the mathematically defined MEDIAN. The average is a little below 100, since there is an upper limit on how smart people can be, but no limit to how dumb they can be.

TE

Not quite right. The commonly thought of definition of "average" is the MEAN, which you allude to, however, it can mean several different things, which would include MODE.

However, we aren't talking to a group of statisticians, here. the three different averages are, for all practical purposes, the same.

By the way, you are factually wrong about the limits, which are just the opposite. You can't be below Zero, but you can be above 200.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 1, 2015 - 10:20am PT
Craig, you forgot one thing.

3 decades of track record showing Republicans

Radically expand the government and it's budget and massively balloon the deficit whenever their guy is in the presidency.

Hamstring the budget and cry deficit whenever the opposition has the presidency.

Shrewd political moves that screw the people.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 11:24am PT
Good points
Yes, Mark Levin is a loon
you can call BS on everyone of his BS talking points
And he has 1000s of ditto heads thinking he is genius speaking truth to power
Of course they don't know that he is just another well paid liar for anyone with lot's of money and "Oh MY WORD"!!
He's a Jew.


And
Almost every cent of our over $17 trillion in debt has been due to Conservative policies,
Reaganomics as a economic strategy has been proven as a complete failure and nothing more than another Big Lie that they tried to pass off on us so they can rob the system.

Where did that $17 Trillion go??
Directly to profiteers.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 1, 2015 - 11:34am PT
3 decades of track record showing Republicans

Radically expand the government and it's budget and massively balloon the deficit whenever their guy is in the presidency.

Yep!

I finally learned that the way to lower taxes and smaller government is to NOT vote republican.

Politicians in general seem to be unable to accomplish what they say.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 11:49am PT
The Democrats only had a 60 Senate Vote Majority of 4 months

Which was a total of 27 working days.
The Democrats never were able to enact any of their polices except the Stimulus and ObamaCare.

I guess they weren't able to undo every Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II bad policy during that short time.

And ever since then, there has been no Democratic progressive policies put forward that have passed.

we are still living under their policies, the tax rates, the Corporate regulations, the anti-progress attitude, nothing has changed, the Repubs won't allow reasonable tax rates.

They control the Government through inaction.

That's what the Republicans voted for.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2015 - 11:55am PT
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:03pm PT
Good graphic TGT! Seems to cover Roger Ailes' entire deceptive fear-mongering misinformation campaign.

Which reminds me: what do you get when you cross unbridled greed, fundamental religion, thinly veiled racism, xenophobia, misogyny, an inability to accept change, a voter base with an average IQ of less than 95, and blind dedication to the party line?

Yep, you're right! Today's Repugnican't Party!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
Tgt is just a typical scared, racist, reactionary moron.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:10pm PT

It’s Worse than Scott Walker and Ted Cruz: Secrets of Conservatives’ Decades-Long War on Truth


The right knows that facts and reason have a liberal bent. That's why their decades-long strategy is to lie.

By Heather Cox Richardson / Salon

March 1, 2015

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/its-worse-scott-walker-and-ted-cruz-secrets-conservatives-decades-long-war-truth

Deep on page 546 of his 1,839-page budget, Wisconsin’s Governor Scott Walker tucked in a crucial idea. He proposed to strip a principle from the mission statement of the University of Wisconsin, a school that attracts students from all over the nation and from 131 foreign countries. From the core philosophy that has driven the university since the turn of the last century Walker wanted to hack out the words: “Basic to every purpose of the system is the search for truth.” Rather than serving the people of the state by developing intellectual, cultural and humane sensitivities, expertise, and “a sense of purpose,” Walker prefers that the state university simply “meet the state’s workforce needs.” In the face of scathing criticism, the governor backtracked and, despite a trail of emails that led to his office, tried to claim the new language was a “drafting error.”

But Walker’s attempt to replace the search for truth with workforce training was no error. Since the earliest days of Movement Conservatism in the 1950s, its leaders have understood that the movement’s success depends on destroying Americans’ faith in the academic search for truth. For two generations, Movement Conservatives have subverted American politics, with increasing success, by explicitly rejecting the principle of open debate based in reasoned argument. They have refused to engage with facts and instead simply demonized anyone who disagrees with their ideology. This is an astonishing position. It is an attack on the Enlightenment principles that gave rise to Western civilization.

Make no mistake: the attack is deliberate.

The Enlightenment blossomed in the wake of the religiously-inspired Thirty Years War of the seventeenth century, when thinkers horrified by the war’s carnage set out to break the fetters of superstition and tradition that had prompted the strife. Descartes, Hobbes, Hume, Jefferson and other thinkers advanced the idea that if people could listen to reasoned arguments, weigh them against evidence and choose the soundest ones, progress would follow. The Enlightenment revolutionized science, culture and politics, and gave rise to the modern world.

Enlightenment ideals prompted America’s founding and reigned for generations as Americans searched for the best ways to manage the economy, changing demographics and international conflict. But in the 1950s, the idea of progress through reason presented a problem for wealthy businessmen. They hated New Deal legislation because it regulated business and protected workers. The boom years of the 1920s had been good ones for them, and they believed that the continued success of their enterprises depended on their complete control over their businesses and the workers they employed. They believed that government meddling in their affairs would disrupt natural economic laws. And with their downfall would come the downfall of the entire American economy, and with it, the nation.

But the problem was that the New Deal was extraordinarily popular. After an economic free-for-all of the 1920s that had pitched the nation into the Great Depression, Americans embraced the government regulation that reined in shady business dealings and protected workers. How could businessmen make inroads against such a popular program?

In 1951, a young William F. Buckley, Jr. articulated a strategy for opposing the consensus that supported New Deal policies. Buckley’s “God and Man at Yale: The Superstitions of ‘Academic Freedom’” was a sophomoric diatribe by the Catholic son of a wealthy oil magnate, published by the small right-wing Henry Regnery Press. In it, Buckley rejected the principles that had enabled social progress for centuries and laid out a mind-boggling premise: The Enlightenment, the intellectual basis of Western Civilization, was wrong.

Rational argument supported by facts did not lead to sound societal decisions, Buckley claimed; it led people astray. Christianity and an economy based on untrammeled individualism were truths that should not be questioned. Impartial debate based in empirical facts was dangerous because it led people toward secularism and collectivism—both bad by definition, according to Buckley. Instead of engaging in rational argument, Buckley insisted, thinkers must stand firm on what he called a new “value orthodoxy” that indoctrinated people to understand that Christianity and economic individualism were absolute truths. Maintaining that faith in reasoned debate was a worse “superstition” than the Enlightenment had set out to replace, Buckley launched an intellectual war to replace the principle of academic inquiry with a Christian and individualist ideology.

Buckley’s radical idea didn’t go far at first, but Wisconsin Senator Joseph McCarthy provided a new rhetorical tool to advance the Yalie’s intellectual premise. In the early 1950s, McCarthy revealed the power of the outrageous lie. He sought to gain power by claiming to defend Christianity and individualism from the secret plots of the godless Communists in the American government. Since he had no evidence to support his crusade, he replaced substantiated arguments with outrageous accusations designed to grab headlines and rile voters. There were 205 Communists in the State Department, he trumpeted, or maybe there were 57 “card carrying Communists” there: after newspapers reported his attacks, McCarthy quickly moved on to new accusations. By the time fact-checkers condemned his statements, new headlines made the corrections old news. McCarthy’s hit-and-run smears suggested that a compelling lie could convince voters so long as it fit a larger narrative of good and evil.

In the same year that McCarthy self-destructed in front of a national TV audience during the Army-McCarthy hearings, Buckley and his brother-in-law L. Brent Bozell turned Buckley’s ideological stand against academic inquiry into just such a narrative. In their telling, a few brave men were standing against an evil majority trying to destroy America. Their “McCarthy and His Enemies” (1954) conflated Soviet-style communism with the popular New Deal consensus. They claimed that Liberals—a name they capitalized to suggest an organized political group—were forcing communism on America. Opposing this cabal were “Conservatives,” who stood for God and individualism. Until they converted it into a capitalized label, conservatism was understood to be a political philosophy that embraced popular programs that had been proven to work–like the New Deal— and rejected radical political experiments based on ideology. Movement Conservatives coopted the word “conservative” to do exactly what traditional conservatives opposed: advance a radical program. “Movement” Conservatives rejected the American consensus. They wanted to purge the country of the Liberals who made up the majority and create a new “orthodoxy” based on the ideology of strict Christianity and individualism.

To press this radical political program, Buckley launched the National Review in 1955, announcing that government activism “must be fought relentlessly.” He railed against President Dwight Eisenhower, who had modified the New Deal consensus into his own “Middle Way.” Eisenhower’s policies just proved that a dangerous cabal controlled both parties under “such fatuous slogans as ‘national unity,’ ‘middle-of-the-road,’ ‘progressivism,’ and ‘bipartisanship.’” Such moderation was socialism, he insisted, and, although the American economy was booming, he insisted that the American consensus was destroying both economic growth and liberty. With the election of JFK, the National Review harped so furiously on the communism snaking into American society at his direction that, after Kennedy’s assassination, even the Republican Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren begged Movement Conservatives to stop their hateful rhetoric. Once again, Buckley spun language around, insisting that the troublemakers were the Liberals who were engaged in an “orgy of lynch excitement against the American Right.”

In 1960, a new voice added anti-intellectual populism to Buckley’s rhetoric. Political operative Phyllis Schlafly wrote “A Choice Not an Echo” to support Barry Goldwater’s quest for the presidential nomination. In her world, correct political decisions were simple: The nation was engaged in a great struggle between good and evil, and educated Eastern Elites who insisted on weighing the realities of a complicated world had enlisted on the wrong side. Elites complained that Goldwater “had one-sentence solutions” for complicated problems, she wrote, but simple solutions were the answer. Communism was bad, so anyone advocating government activism was evil. Elites arguing for government action were parasites. All they really wanted was money from government contracts, paid for by hardworking regular Americans.

This Manichean worldview led Barry Goldwater’s candidacy to grief in 1964 as voters recoiled from its aggressive irresponsibility, but with Ronald Reagan the Movement Conservative program gained the one new piece it needed to sell its ideology: a warm narrative. Reagan pushed Christianity and individualism with both lies and anti-intellectualism, but he did so with folksy stories and charm. He described a world of hardworking individuals threatened by “a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capitol,” and pushed policies that dramatically rolled back New Deal reforms. When opponents noted that his stories had little basis in fact and that his policies didn’t work as he claimed, he accused them of being haters and rallied supporters against the “Liberal media.” Journalists and opposing politicians first laughed but then looked on aghast as voters backed his warm fantasies over fact-based policy.





By the time of the George W. Bush administration, Movement Conservatives had constructed a post-modern political world where reality mattered far less than the popular story of Conservatives standing firm against the “Liberal agenda” of godlessness and communism. As a member of the Bush administration famously noted to journalist Ron Suskind, “the reality-based” view of the world was obsolete. It was no longer viable to believe that people could find solutions to societal problems by studying reality. “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” this senior advisor to the president told Suskind. “We are an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors… and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

Buckley’s intellectual stand had won. Facts and argument had given way to an ideology premised on Christianity and the idea of economic individualism. As Movement Conservatives took over the Republican Party, that ideology worked its way deep into our political system. It has given us, for example, a senator claiming words he spoke on the Senate floor were “not intended to be a factual statement.” It has given us “dynamic scoring,” a rule changing the way the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimates the economic impact of tax cuts, to reinforce the idea that cuts fuel economic growth despite the visibly disastrous effects of recent tax cuts on states such as Kansas. And it has given us attempts in Oklahoma, Texas, North Carolina and Colorado to discard the A.P. U.S. History framework and dictate that students learn instead the Movement Conservatives’ skewed version of the nation’s history. Politicians have always spun information to advance their own policies. The practice infuriates partisans but it reflects the Enlightenment idea of progress through reasoned argument. Movement Conservatives’ insistence on their own version of reality, in defiance of facts, is something different altogether.

When Governor Walker replaced “the search for truth” with “meet the state’s workforce needs” in the charge to the University of Wisconsin, he did not make an error. He was articulating the principle that has driven Movement Conservatives since their earliest days: Facts and arguments can only lead Americans toward a government that regulates business and supports working Americans, and they must be squelched. The search for truth must be replaced by an ideology that preserves Christianity and big-business individualism. Religion and freedom for mega-business, Movement Conservatives insist, is what America is all about.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
Can any of you refute the depicted associations?

Or, are you proud of them?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
Why would we waste our effort & time on such a thing with you, TGT?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
Tgt is just a typical scared, racist, reactionary moron.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
TGT
I thought Ricky already posted the only proper response to your post.

When are you going to refute my posts?
I'm waiting!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
Perhaps, TGT, it would be more enlightening for you to tell us why we should fear the associations in your cut-and-pasted graphic. Please do so in your own words so we know you have actually given the matter some thought, rather than just parroting what your fearful leader wants you believe. I frankly think you are incapable of such a task and would love to be able to say I told you so...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
Told you so!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
Another one of the Fine Leaders of the Conservative Party at CPAC

CPAC Officially Goes Off The Rails With Phil Robertson's Rant On STDs, 'The Revenge Of The Hippies'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/27/phil-robertson-cpac-stds_n_6770838.html

Yes, Blame the Hippies
He and Eric Cartman have identified our common enemy
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
Start from the top goggling the names.


Then get back to us and tell us all who they are and that you support their agendas.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
TGT
You HAVE NEVER ANSWERED A SINGLE DIRECT QUESTION WE EVER ASKED YOU

WHY now would we want to desect your stupid idiotic BS Diagram that's pure propaganda?


You can change your persona here and participate in a discussion for once.
But you will have to start with a new request or question that is based in reality rather than Fox Bubble world.

Learn how to participate, try refuting our posts with Facts,
your endless trolling here has not served you well for gaining support from others
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
You post a stooooopid graphic from one of your wingnut websites you downloaded on your Compaq 386 & dialup modem and call that 'winning an argument with a lib'?

BTW: It's called 'Googling'.

crankster

Trad climber
Mar 1, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
TGT, you used to post some reasonably funny, albeit, rightwing bs....now you've moved into the far wingnoutosphere. What happened?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
"...now you've moved into the far wingnoutosphere."

Ummm, TGT has lived in the 'far wingnutosphere' about as long as any of us ST polititards can remember. This is kind of Krap® is really nothing new from him.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 1, 2015 - 05:24pm PT
It would be fun to have an intelligent Republican here.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 05:26pm PT
JE's pretty damn good...even if you don't agree with him, he's articulate and respectful. He's a very intelligent conservative...a rarity these days.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 1, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
When is TGT going to answer Craig Fry's questions...?
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 1, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
Agree. I like JE.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 1, 2015 - 05:40pm PT
It would be fun to have an intelligent Republican here.

that is an oxymoron

no such thing

"intelligent Republicans" do not continue to vote Republican when they witness first
hand the unnecessary destruction of the US economy under President Bush

and they don't continue to vote Republican after witnessing what is widely regarded
as the single worst foreign policy mistake in US history, loss of thousand of US soldiers
and adding trillions of dollars to the national debt by invading and "nation building"
in Iraq

and they don't continue to vote Republican if they give a damn about the women in
their own lives, their wives and daughters, by supporting a party that voted against
equal pay legislation


and yes, by the above definition and criteria, then JohnE is a god damn stupid Republican

edit: and his supposed civility does not change a damn thing
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
Yeah, Norton, I'm not so sure John would identify himself as a 'Republican' so much as a 'Conservative'.

Big difference these days.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 1, 2015 - 06:11pm PT
Norton....Nail on the head..
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
Now days
They try to call themselves Libertarians to escape the badge of being a despicable hypocritical Republican

Yet none of them really know what the Libertarian Philosophy is.
If they ever were able to grasp the ramifications of what the libertarian Gov. provides their citizens, they would run for their lives in horror of the true Libertarian Intentions.

But as we all know, they are just the current crop of "Conservatives"
future investigations will refer them to as a "Right Wing Religious Cult"
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
I also doubt JE would consider himself a 'Libertarian'. He doesn't come off with the same kind of Rand/Ron Paul whackery.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
JE called himself "more of a libertarian" in one post I read 2 years ago.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 1, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
JE lives in Fresno , the Orange County of central california....Most news in that area , Fox , is right-wing , lunatic fringe...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
Well, I've got some 'Liberal' leanings, but I wouldn't consider myself a full-blown Berkeley Liberal.

I could see JE having some Libertarian leanings...hell, I've got some, too...and I know for a damn fact that several of us on the Left here do, too. That doesn't make any of us full-blown Libertarians, though, does it?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
Maybe we should leave JE out of this discussion and let him reply later
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
Dude. You got post 2112. Psyched.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 1, 2015 - 07:08pm PT

TGT, Google this and report back to us what it means.

Take note of the upside down Stars.
What do the upside down stars represent?

They sure aren't part of the American Flag
in fact, they are the exact opposite

here is something else to ponder


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 1, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
Note spelling, TGT:

'Google'
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 2, 2015 - 08:10am PT
It's certainly best to let JohnE speak for himself here, and speak for himself he does well. In fact, he is able to articulate himself better than most, and an added bonus is that he respects what others have to say.

That said, I still recall the exchange we had about the "equal pay" bill that was thwarted by the GOP, and John's explanation why he supported the GOP in this instance.

While the bill was more about the ability to discuss pay in the workplace than it was about enforcing equal pay, John's premiss for his support for the GOP seemed to discount the idea that pay was unequal to begin with. Why would a corp pay a man more for a job when they can pay a woman less to do the same job. His argument basically said that if corporations were greedy, they would not pay men more, so the idea that there was unequal pay was a fabrication. (That is my take on John's logic and I admit I could be completely off. But I read his post a couple of times, and that's what I took away.)

Any way you cut it, though, John supported the GOP's vote to kill the bill. And for me, it doesn't matter what circular logic one uses to validate their support for the GOP in this case, the idea that Gov't should allow corp's to penalize people for discussing their salaries is hogwash in my book; I just do not see any solid ground you can stand on when endorsing the GOP in this case. But John certainly tried.

So I guess this is a long-winded to say that I stand by what Norton said above.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 2, 2015 - 11:04am PT
Wow. This is just like my wife's family. Stay away, and they talk about you.

I don't think anything I say about me matters much. I'd rather let my arguments speak for themselves, but thank you for so many nice comments.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 11:09am PT
Boy, ain't that the truth.

Besides the issue of tone & respectful commentary, there was a question about the various political leanings you (or any of us) have. Though many tend to categorize others pretty simply, my contention is that most of us are a pastiche of ideologic viewpoints. What say you?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 2, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
Amen, apogee. By the way, I loved your earlier reference to "Berkeley liberals," because I spent four very enjoyable undergraduate years at Berkeley in the late '60's and early '70's. The University in general - and the math and econ departments where I hung out in particular - encouraged wide diversities of opinions. While it wasn't as much fun as hanging out at Indian Rock and the practice rooms in the basement of Morrison Hall, it was a very stimulating place to be.

Few people now realize that the Free Speech Movement had the support of student groups ranging from the W.E.B. DuBois Club to Youth for Goldwater. The politics of the City of Berkeley, however, made someone considered "liberal" anywhere else seem like a hopeless far-right-winger.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
Some of the ST polititards are under the impression you have Libertarian leanings. How much influence does Libertarianism have on your viewpoint?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
That's pretty much my impression, too, DMT.

Interestingly, yesterday's posts have varying perspectives on JE's ideologic position.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 2, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
Well you can guess why most Republicans never answer direct questions
it's because they have too much hypocrisy that will be exposed if they explain their opinions.

And every question we have for them dealing with reality will expose them, so hence, no response.

And you can count on one other thing:
They Will Never admit that they were Wrong.

Do they ever admit to being wrong to themselves?
Or do they delude themselves to stay safe.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
Craig, that's just not true in John's case. He's probably not responding (yet) because he doesn't want the personal attention, he's just too busy right now, or he finds the questions kinda silly. Can't blame him for any of these reasons.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:11pm PT

Asking if he is a Libertarian or not
is considered silly??

I don't know about you, but when some one asks me a serious question I don't first judge if it's silly or not.
I just answer the damn question so we can move on

I can't think of a single question that I will not answer.
What's so hard about answering a direct question.

Their silence tells me all I need to know.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
Their silence tells me all I need to know.

And your incessant noise carries a message, too.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Anyone who posts on a forum could be described as noise.

What have you republicans or libertarians been right about?

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
Craig, if I had asked you a question earlier this morning, you wouldn't have answered.

Why?

You weren't online at the time (probably).

Give John the benefit of the doubt. If any of your politi-foes have earned it, it's him.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
I'm Not Talking about John Specifically

I am just making a general point about Republicans and their inability to act as honest brokers.

They usually change the subject or just go missing until the enquiry has dissipated.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:41pm PT
Craig Fry wrote:
I can't think of a single question that I will not answer.
What's so hard about answering a direct question.

Craig, I have a question: When did you stop beating your wife?








Just kiddin. ;-)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:41pm PT
Well, setting JE aside, I'd have to agree with you 100% on that one.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:44pm PT
I have never laid a hand on ANY women in a hostile way
Or any animal or pet.

I have the softest heart ever, I get teared up when I see a road kill

We tease our dog about how it's Time for her "Beating"
which is actually just more pets and cuddling.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 2, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
Right Wing Agenda No. 1, create fear


CPAC 2015 Wants You to Know: You Are In Terrible Danger


From warmongers to conspiracy theorists, all of those present can agree that America needs to be afraid.

By Jeb Lund / The Guardian

February 27, 2015
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/cpac-2015-wants-you-know-you-are-terrible-danger

Welcome to the Conservative Political Action Conference, a three-day-long performance from an improv troupe whose hat has only has one statement in it: you’re in terrible danger. But that doesn’t mean you’re in terrible danger right now. Right now, there are seminars.

more...at link
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 2, 2015 - 05:07pm PT

Walmart’s Visible Hand

MARCH 2, 2015
Paul Krugman

A few days ago Walmart, America’s largest employer, announced that it will raise wages for half a million workers. For many of those workers the gains will be small, but the announcement is nonetheless a very big deal, for two reasons. First, there will be spillovers: Walmart is so big that its action will probably lead to raises for millions of workers employed by other companies. Second, and arguably far more important, is what Walmart’s move tells us — namely, that low wages are a political choice, and we can and should choose differently.

Some background: Conservatives — with the backing, I have to admit, of many economists — normally argue that the market for labor is like the market for anything else. The law of supply and demand, they say, determines the level of wages, and the invisible hand of the market will punish anyone who tries to defy this law.

Specifically, this view implies that any attempt to push up wages will either fail or have bad consequences. Setting a minimum wage, it’s claimed, will reduce employment and create a labor surplus, the same way attempts to put floors under the prices of agricultural commodities used to lead to butter mountains, wine lakes and so on. Pressuring employers to pay more, or encouraging workers to organize into unions, will have the same effect.

But labor economists have long questioned this view. Soylent Green — I mean, the labor force — is people. And because workers are people, wages are not, in fact, like the price of butter, and how much workers are paid depends as much on social forces and political power as it does on simple supply and demand.

What’s the evidence? First, there is what actually happens when minimum wages are increased. Many states set minimum wages above the federal level, and we can look at what happens when a state raises its minimum while neighboring states do not. Does the wage-hiking state lose a large number of jobs? No — the overwhelming conclusion from studying these natural experiments is that moderate increases in the minimum wage have little or no negative effect on employment.

Then there’s history. It turns out that the middle-class society we used to have didn’t evolve as a result of impersonal market forces — it was created by political action, and in a brief period of time. America was still a very unequal society in 1940, but by 1950 it had been transformed by a dramatic reduction in income disparities, which the economists Claudia Goldin and Robert Margo labeled the Great Compression. How did that happen?

Part of the answer is direct government intervention, especially during World War II, when government wage-setting authority was used to narrow gaps between the best paid and the worst paid. Part of it, surely, was a sharp increase in unionization. Part of it was the full-employment economy of the war years, which created very strong demand for workers and empowered them to seek higher pay.

The important thing, however, is that the Great Compression didn’t go away as soon as the war was over. Instead, full employment and pro-worker politics changed pay norms, and a strong middle class endured for more than a generation. Oh, and the decades after the war were also marked by unprecedented economic growth.


The retailer’s wage hike seems to reflect the same forces that led to the Great Compression, albeit in a much weaker form. Walmart is under political pressure over wages so low that a substantial number of employees are on food stamps and Medicaid. Meanwhile, workers are gaining clout thanks to an improving labor market, reflected in increasing willingness to quit bad jobs.

What’s interesting, however, is that these pressures don’t seem all that severe, at least so far — yet Walmart is ready to raise wages anyway. And its justification for the move echoes what critics of its low-wage policy have been saying for years: Paying workers better will lead to reduced turnover, better morale and higher productivity.

What this means, in turn, is that engineering a significant pay raise for tens of millions of Americans would almost surely be much easier than conventional wisdom suggests. Raise minimum wages by a substantial amount; make it easier for workers to organize, increasing their bargaining power; direct monetary and fiscal policy toward full employment, as opposed to keeping the economy depressed out of fear that we’ll suddenly turn into Weimar Germany. It’s not a hard list to implement — and if we did these things we could make major strides back toward the kind of society most of us want to live in.

The point is that extreme inequality and the falling fortunes of America’s workers are a choice, not a destiny imposed by the gods of the market. And we can change that choice if we want to.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 2, 2015 - 07:09pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
Man, that musta taken hours to download on your Compaq 386 & dialup modem, TGT.

Good thing the Internet isn't gonna be taken over by your beloved corporations...you'd be fooked!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 2, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
I love that guy's creds as an author of a wingnut conspiracy theory book. I'm certain that those people were a purely random sampling of the people passing by.

Might I suggest that on your next Obama economic failure interweb google query you search for "stock market performance over past 6 years". If that's failure then bring it on!

I'm actually a little sad for you that you must live your life unable to express your thoughts without using other people's words & ideas. It makes you seem like an idiot.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 06:26am PT
What could be wrong with a simple question?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:17am PT
oh, the irony...

http://blog.heartland.org/2015/03/left-launches-witch-hunt-against-climate-scientists/


so, how many dems are comfortable with a member of congress demanding that universities publish all PRIVATE funding for research?

obviously, none of you care about how the government spends money because you believe the money belongs to the government and the public has no right to know how public money is spent
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:26am PT
Larry. are you saying that your question about "when did I stop beating my wife" was a loaded question?

Oh, my bad, I answered it anyway.
What do I win.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2015 - 07:52am PT
Well at least bookworm is not spending the morning fretting over sexual harassment and consensual sex.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2015 - 08:23am PT

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/03/02/obamas-claim-that-keystone-xl-oil-bypasses-the-u-s-earns-four-pinocchios/?postshare=7921425299882174
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 3, 2015 - 08:32am PT
TeaGeeTea is a living Triplex

simultaneously ignorant, racist,and a coward

his fixation, nay crush, on the US President is psychotic
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Craig, TGT is the perfect example of what you were pointing out yesterday. No dialogue, just throws sh#t out and runs, corner him with facts and he disappears...yeah, that's the typical ST Repug.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 3, 2015 - 09:48am PT
God I love that guy...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:20am PT
Craig, what was the question I was supposed to answer? I was busy most of yesterday dealing with a matter where the opposing law firm has an attorney by the name of Craig Fry!

For those unaware, I consider our Craig Fry a friend, and he has my permission to harass me, not that he needs it.

But just to add a bit of fun to the mix, Obama's arguments against the Keystone Pipeline remind me of something Chouinard wrote over 40 years ago, viz. "It's an argument if not by, then exclusively for half-wits and imbiciles." It earned the coveted Four Pinocchio award on the Washington Post's Fact Checker:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/03/02/obamas-claim-that-keystone-xl-oil-bypasses-the-u-s-earns-four-pinocchios/

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:25am PT
Yeah, John, that link was bombed in by TGT earlier today. 'Bombed in', that is, by simply posting some stooooopid graphic with a link, without any kind of dialogue, comment, or perspective whatsoever (preferably intelligent).

That's what Craig was calling out yesterday about the majority of Repubs here at ST (yourself not included).
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:29am PT
You are moron, JohnE

gas is $2 a gallon and the supply keeps building, no environment trashing taking of
private property by Eminent Domain laws is "necessary"

bottom line, you "oppose" simply and only because you can do so, just like all the other
"conservatives" do in their very nature, oppose because of cowardly intellectual timidness to stand up and defend your own party's massive failures with the economy and foreign policy

factual ignorant is one thing, being incapable, bullheaded, of change is purely...stupid



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:39am PT
You are moron [sic], JohnE

I know this is unfair, because I make plenty of typos, too, and don't always catch them before anyone else. Still, you're right in one sense, Norton. In certain situations, like this one, I can't help myself from pointing out the irony.

Gas is well over $3.00 a gallon currently in California, though largely because of refinery issues and a steelworkers labor dispute, not the price of petroleum and natural gas. Nonetheless, the decline in hydrocarbon prices comes despite, not because of, the Democrats' policies. The majority of Democrats nationally have expended great effort to decrease hydrocarbon extraction in the U.S. Fortunately, the market was able to work around the Democrats' obstructionism.

How can anyone take seriously Obama's argument that there hasn't been enough study? Really, six years isn't enough? Also, this is a privately-funded endeavor, not a waste of taxpayer money, such as California's Democrats are committing with their high speed rail white elephant.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:48am PT
"The majority of Democrats nationally have expended great effort to decrease hydrocarbon extraction in the U.S. "

Well, that's one reason we voted them in, isn't it?

We are all hoping to avoid any future 'massive failures with the economy and foreign policy'. Who could disagree with that?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:50am PT
You are moron, JohnE

And you guys wonder why no one wants to come play in your little sandbox.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 3, 2015 - 11:38am PT
And you guys wonder why no one wants to come play in your little sandbox
this is for those sandbox dorks!
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
high speed rail white elephant.

Yeah, why should CA have high speed rail when we have all those cars and freeways?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
Craig Fry wrote:
Larry. are you saying that your question about "when did I stop beating my wife" was a loaded question?
Oh, my bad, I answered it anyway.
What do I win.

Craig,
LOL, I was just pointing out that some questions are not worth answering. You would have won if you did not answer, heh.
I think that line actually comes from an old Jewish comedian.

Crankster wrote:
Yeah, why should CA have high speed rail when we have all those cars and freeways?

Crank,
Being California, where most of us had our first sexual experiences in a car (maybe I'm dating myself), we are not likely to give up the independence and freedom of a car.
Even if that wasn't true, the whole high speed rail thing is still a boondoggle.
Remember when California governors used to leave office without debt and money in the bank?
Jerry Brown is not a typical politician and can be creative at solving problems. I think his progressive spending inclinations are steering him wrong on this one.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
Nutteryahoo would love for the U.S. to take military action against Iran.

I'm sure Fatty loves that idea.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 3, 2015 - 01:52pm PT

Yeah, why should CA have high speed rail when we have all those cars and freeways?

The problem, Crankster, is what we're giving up to pay for that high speed rail ("HSR"). Here are a few of them:

1. The state's support of public higher education keeps dwindling. I found it particularly ironic that the day Brown vowed to go ahead with the project, despite its significant cost increase over the estimates initially given, City College of San Francisco, the undergraduate school with the largest enrollment in California, almost lost its accreditation because of its shaky finances. Most of the other community colleges in California were on similarly uncertain financial ground. Not only will the capital cost of HSR diminish funds available for capital improvements in the Community Colleges, State University and University of California systems, but the annual costs of operating that system will diminish funds available for other state needs.

2. If the issue is reducing congestion and air pollution, using funds currently budgeted for HSR to synchronizing the timing of signals on urban surface streets instead would yield far better returns. We would reduce fossil fuel consumption and air pollution much more by using the HSR capital fund to buy everyone a hybrid. The actual reduction of either fuel consumption or air pollution from HSR will be negligible.

3. People don't choose to ride in their own cars, or in planes, because they're stupid. HSR has some advantages over flying if you live in my little town, but not so for traveling between the Bay Area and South California. As for using cars rather than public transportation, my car leaves exactly when I'm ready, goes to exactly where I'm going, allows me to store things securely while I combine several tasks in one trip, has exactly the environment I desire in terms of temperature, noise (i.e. music, voice or silence) and companionship.

4. The California budget will be increasingly overwhelmed with pension costs. The last thing we need is an economic sink hole that will cost substantial amounts of money yearly for quite dubious benefits.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Crankster, are you a HSR supporter?

Me...as a lefty....notsomuch. It really seems like a massive boondoggle that is moving forward mostly due to political momentum & special interests (somewhere). It's hard to conceive how it will make any kind of real dent in the transportation problems we have in Cali.

It's hard to argue against the positive, rational economic impact Brown has had in the last few years. But as mentioned above, I'm having a hard time understanding why he's hitched his wagon to this mess.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
John
The question was "Are you a libertarian or not?"
But really, the question might be "Did you say you were a Libertarian"?



The Keystone Pipeline only has Republican support because it's a Koch Brothers project

The Koch Bros bought huge tracts of Tar sand land, they want a Canadian Company to build a pipeline through America using non-American Steel and pipes.

They don't have the rights to the land so they are claiming eminent domain and just taking it.
They don't have the environmental impact reports completed or approved, but Repubs don't like the laws regulating such things as pipe across America that could wreck huge aquifers that millions of people rely on

The product will go directly to the Koch Bro refineries in Texas and be shipped to the lowest bidder.

America will not get any royalties for the product being piped, they go straight into the Koch private Corp.

It's a collusion with a Private Company and the Federal Gov.
They can't just force it through because they want, The Congress has No such authority
Can you understand.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
Obama’s claim that Keystone XL oil ‘bypasses the U.S.’ earns Four Pinocchios

The article didn't even prove that Obama was wrong
It said that the refined product may or may not be sold here in America, no one knows for sure at this time.

Just another hit piece.
why do the Repubs love to discredit the President with misinformation at every chance

I think it's despicable and just shows how effective the right wing media is at creating division and hate.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 3, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
Thanks, Craig. I have a tendency toward being libertarian (in contrast to Libertarian) on domestic policy, and very much so regarding the Bill of Rights. I don't agree with most of the decisions of Justices Black and Douglas on antitrust, say, but on the Bill of Rights, I would probably have voted in lockstep with them, if it were mine to vote.

I part company with classic libertarianism on government regulation, which I think is essential to allowing a capitalist economy to function properly. This is particularly true with respect to regulations dealing with economic externalities. In regulations designed to protect people form themselves, the libertarian tendency reappears.

I am not a libertarian on foreign policy, at least to the extent that libertarian foreign policy has come to mean neo-isolationism. To that extent, I'm much more of a Goldwater Republican. If for no other reason than foreign policy, I would vote for Hillary Clinton over Rand Paul, given what I know currently about each.

So does this make me a Ripon Society Republican?

John
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
apogee, I'm not all in on HSR; but my daughter lives in Europe and last summer we traveled around on trains doing 300 kph+ and I'm thinking "why can't we do this in the US?" I'd wager every major transportation infrastructure project has a great many skeptics, although, voters did approve the project in '08. And I don't buy the argument that we are taking money away from education to do it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 3, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
Crankster, compare the population density in Europe with that along the route of the California HSR, then check to see if any of the European passenger railroads obtain enough money from fares to cover operations. The answer to those questions explains why we shouldn't do that here.

And I agree that we aren't necessarily spending money that would otherwise go to public higher education. I was offering that as one example of a higher and better use for the money. For some reason I've never understood, Jerry Brown, who has generally done a good job in his second run at governor, has fallen back to his M. O. during his first run as governor, and decreasing state funding for public higher education. Since I have one undergraduate degree (with double majors) one graduate, and one professional degree all from the U.C. system, both of our daughters are U.C. graduates, my wife a Cal State University-trained nurse, and I've taught in the community college system, I'll admit to a certain bias in this matter.

John
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 3, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
6 years to review / approve a project like keystone is chump change. International implications, condemnation litigation, NEPA, and all the other permits-- prolly 10 years at least. I just did an NPDES permit RENEWAL with no real changes and it took EPA two years.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 3, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
Just another hit piece.
why do the Repubs love to discredit the President with misinformation at every chance

I think it's despicable and just shows how effective the right wing media is at creating division and hate.

So now the Washington Post is right wing media? The same paper that endorsed Obama twice and in the last mid-term endorsed 44 Democrats versus 3 Republicans?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
The HSR is a low priority on Brown's plate.

I think it won't happen, and he is as surely as smart as me
Just to much Opposition!

The opposition won't let us have nice new things, they don't want the money invested into the public good.
The future will be defunded by squashing all good ideas we have now, just forget about any improvements that we could make or have any hope for a better future.

I'm not a HSR fan, and knew from the start it was a none starter
But isn't this an debate we should have?
Should we think about the future or not?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
The NY Times publishes all kinds of hit pieces on Obama and Hillary

The question is
Does Obama’s claim that Keystone XL oil ‘bypasses the U.S.’ earn Four Pinocchios?
Or not?

I never heard Obama say it "bypasses the U.S.", he didn't make it some Huge Talking Point that he is campaigning on, do we have to dissect every word he utters

Do the charges matter at this time?
It's such a weak claim, that the only reason anyone would care about it is that they want to throw some more sh#t at Obama.
It's pathetic

When will the instinctive sh#t throwing end?

How many Pinocchios did they give Bush for claiming Saddam had WMDs?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
"...last summer we traveled around on trains doing 300 kph+ and I'm thinking "why can't we do this in the US?""

Yeah, I went to Japan a couple of years ago, and lamented the same thing. Their public transportation system is unbelievably effective & efficient.

But as I thought about it further, the idea of having the same system here in the US (esp. Cali) just doesn't make any sense. The genie is pretty much out of the bottle here...life & workstyles have been well established for generations, and personal vehicles are a central part of the identity of this culture (no matter how much dysfunction that might create).

Population densities (as mentioned above) are another stark contrast...and then there's the whole matter of private property, which would require significant encroachment in order for a similar type of network. No politician is gonna touch that, eminent domain or not.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 3, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
I part company with classic libertarianism on government regulation, which I think is essential to allowing a capitalist economy to function properly.

It's so hard to get clear on the labels!

I'm a philosophical libertarian (closest to a 19th century "classical liberal"), but none of that perspective maps neatly onto present-day political libertarianism, much less contemporary liberalism!

I'm with you on regulation, and I wish the federal government would do much more in the way of anti-trust protection (one of its actual powers, btw!). How does Comcast/Time-blah,blah,blah even lift its head for consideration???

Anyway, by "classic libertarianism," do you mean contemporary political libertarianism, as in what the libertarian party "thinks," etc.?

Thanks!
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
This is interesting.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/california-high-speed-rail-the-collectors-edition/384443/

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
What a joke, Bibi. Makes Dick Cheney look sane.

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2015 - 05:03pm PT
Good old Nutteryahoo.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 3, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
The NY Times publishes all kinds of hit pieces on Obama and Hillary

The question is
Does Obama’s claim that Keystone XL oil ‘bypasses the U.S.’ earn Four Pinocchios?
Or not?

I never heard Obama say it "bypasses the U.S.", he didn't make it some Huge Talking Point that he is campaigning on, do we have to dissect every word he utters

Do the charges matter at this time?
It's such a weak claim, that the only reason anyone would care about it is that they want to throw some more sh#t at Obama.
It's pathetic

When will the instinctive sh#t throwing end?

How many Pinocchios did they give Bush for claiming Saddam had WMDs?

This^, like many of your posts, indicate an unwillingness to acknowledge inconvenient details.

Throughout his Presidency, Obama has done his best to postpone approval, putting the onus on "the need for further study". After multiple environmental studies showed no reason to reject the project, Congress approved a bill for its construction. Obama vetoed it. Why? Just because he felt like it.

That's leadership.

I don't consider this veto all that important. My beef is it's another example of Obama indicating he'll move forward once certain criteria are met. Once they are met, Obama balks.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
"Obama vetoed it. Why? Just because he felt like it."

Yep, that's what I call leadership, too. We don't need that damn thing, not one little bit.

Don't fret about it too much...Hillary will be much more to your liking, and she's just around the corner.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 3, 2015 - 05:14pm PT
Why? Just because he felt like it.

Actually no. So why then? Because it's just hard to come up with a more ignorant way of producing oil than tar sands. It should under no circumstances be encouraged in any way.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
This^, like many of your posts, indicate an unwillingness to acknowledge inconvenient details.

Yes, why do you have an unwillingness to acknowledge the inconvenient details that the Congress has been bought off by the Koch Brothers.

The Corporate media pressure has been intense to bias the public in their favor.
Every Day they are losing millions in Profit!!
There are such big bucks involved, it's curious why every Republican fell in line for the scam.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
Netanyahu's Iran speech

I didn't listen to it.

There is much to say about the speech and why he was allowed to speak today.

I just wanted to point out that the guy is nothing more than a Warmonger Neocon.

He came before Congress in 2002 telling us that we need to Invade Iraq...
Before it's TOO Late!!!

Now we need to snub Iran and hope we can provoke them into a reason that we need to Bomb them. That's the plan. Stop working with them. We don't want you to start working out a plan to bring Iran back into an ally/friend status, even though it's within reach.

Is that what we really want? I think it will just start another war.
Is that what the majority of America want? No.

Obama has been working hard to work on a Nuclear agreement with Iran.
To sabotage his efforts with Iran now? after so much progress has been made?



Netanyahu Lied About Iraq’s WMDs, Now He’s Saying the Same Things About Iran

By: Sarah Jones more from Sarah Jones
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/02/10/republicans-netanhayu-charge-u-s-foreign-policy-bush.html

Tuesday, February, 10th, 2015, 2:40 pm


Netanyahu has been saying the same things about Iran that he incorrectly said about Iraq in 2002 as he sold the Iraq war to the U.S.
In 2012, Juan Cole went back to 2002 to point out that Netanyahu was saying the same inaccurate fear-mongering stuff about Iran that he said about Iraq.

Here’s what Netanyahu was saying then:

“There is no question whatsoever that Saddam was seeking nuclear weapons,” Netanyahu said, misleading Congress in 2002. He claimed Iraq had Centrifuges “the size of washing machines” to produce the A-bomb. And as Cole wrote, “He said that Israeli intelligence reported to him that Russian scientists and North Korea were on site and actively aiding this phantom nuclear weapons program.”

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
I sent a ST PM to Dirtbag about a week ago, I wonder if he ever got it?

But the message was:

You need to start a new Political Thread called:

"The Political Debate Thread"

So as to set up a more neutral platform for our political debates.

But if he doesn't want to, someone else should.
Someone that can take the abuse, someone that has earned respect, someone that will activate the thread so it's the Only Political Thread On ST that survives.

I of course will not start it, since it could be deleted by Admin w/o any explanation.
Hopefully a troll won't fill the vacuum.

Oh there I go again..
trying to improve the ST forum

Damn you Craig, will you just GIVE IT UP
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
That's a great idea, Craig.

I vote for dirt to nuke this one, and start one following your suggestion. dirt?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76W-0GVjNEc&bpctr=1425440333

2009, And the newly elected president of the United States offered no support, not even verbally for those Iranians struggling for liberty.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
And just why the hell do those crazy Iranians feel like they need nukes?

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/why-do-people-believe-stupid-stuff-even-when-theyre-confronted-truth
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
TGT, should we start launching missiles in any particular direction or just push the buttons and worry about aiming later?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2015 - 07:57pm PT

Mar 3, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
I sent a ST PM to Dirtbag about a week ago, I wonder if he ever got it?

But the message was:

You need to start a new Political Thread called:

"The Political Debate Thread"

I didn't get it.


I have no particular attachment to this thread. I plagiarized your title because it has a tradition as a dumping ground for politard BS. I could care less if this is nuked and replaced by another.

I said awhile ago I would not nuke this thread. However, I seriously doubt someone will ever want to look up a post from here more than a day or two old.

So, I'll put it to a vote:

Would anyone object if I nuke this thread and step aside so someone else can create another dumping ground called "Stoopid Dumfook politard BS" or the like?
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 3, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
This one works.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Mar 3, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
TGT, that is the most pathetic troll I've ever seen on this site. Why are you such an as#@&%e?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
"Would anyone object if I nuke this thread and step aside so someone else can create another dumping ground called "Stoopid Dumfook politard BS" or the like?"

Not me. Nuke away. I'll be there, regardless.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 4, 2015 - 04:48am PT
"Obama vetoed it. Why? Just because he felt like it."

Yep, that's what I call leadership, too. We don't need that damn thing, not one little bit.

Obama said that the Keystone XL pipeline would be approved if it “does not significantly exacerbate the problem of carbon pollution.”

Just another example of Obama stating he would do something, based on certain conditions, and once those conditions were met, he backpedals. He lies.

Don't fret about it too much...Hillary will be much more to your liking, and she's just around the corner.

Much more to my liking? How so?

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 4, 2015 - 05:04am PT
Netanyahu has been saying the same things about Iran that he incorrectly said about Iraq in 2002 as he sold the Iraq war to the U.S.

Apparently, he had the same intel as the US... and Britain, Germany, Russia, China, and France.

George Tenet, George W. Bush's CIA director, assured the President that the case for Saddam possessing WMD was “a slam dunk.” In this assessment, Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. The National Intelligence Estimate of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, asserted with “high confidence” that "Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and France all agreed with this judgment. Even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he dispose of the WMD he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 4, 2015 - 06:01am PT
Edward...Bush also had intel via the FBI that Al Quaeda was going to crash planes into American buildings...Why didn't he act on that intel...Lazy government worker...
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 4, 2015 - 06:54am PT
I said awhile ago I would not nuke this thread. However, I seriously doubt someone will ever want to look up a post from here more than a day or two old.

So, I'll put it to a vote:

Would anyone object if I nuke this thread and step aside so someone else can create another dumping ground called "Stoopid Dumfook politard BS" or the like?

I would object, this thread is just fine

besides, there is no such thing as political "debate" on Supertopo

what we do have is everyone, myself included, posting purely partisan
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 4, 2015 - 07:06am PT
Bush also had intel via the FBI that Al Quaeda was going to crash planes into American buildings...Why didn't he act on that intel?

You mean other than maintaining the FBI's 70 full field investigations throughout the US, related to Bin Ladin? Or the CIA's on-going efforts related to Bin Ladin?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 4, 2015 - 08:19am PT
Ben Carson. Another one of your fellow Republicans.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2015 - 08:43am PT
I suggest that some of you get familiar with Mario Draghi, he could have a much bigger
impact on a lot of our futures. Will he be wearing Zegnas or Zanottis?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 4, 2015 - 08:50am PT
Forbes ranks Draghi as the 8th most powerful person in the World.

Forbes also ranks Putin over Obama.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 4, 2015 - 08:53am PT
Oh Alabama, you're on the wrong side of history.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/04/in-defiant-ruling-alabama-supreme-court-stops-same-sex-marriage-in-state/
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 4, 2015 - 08:55am PT
Forbes also ranks Putin over Obama.

Forbes hasn't been paying attention lately, I take it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 4, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Authoritarians Love Dictators over any Liberal Constitutionally restrained President

They wish the President would have the same power as Putin, but only a Republican President
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 4, 2015 - 09:10am PT
That explains why Obama had the top spot in '09, '11 and '12.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2015 - 09:41am PT
Well, let's be real, a lame duck pres with the veto as his primary tool is not particularly
relevant. And if the Supreme Court holds against Obamacare then he won't have much
of a legacy. If Democrats are so smart why couldn't they craft a law that was constitutional?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2015 - 09:59am PT
Well, maybe you don't have any truck with 'legacy' but here's a news flash: no legacy means you didn't do diddly.
You can play games with semantics all you want but that's just the way the world, and history, works.
Sorry to break it to you.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 4, 2015 - 10:00am PT
Reilly
I guess you haven't bothered to look into this case

It's about the interpretation of 4 words.

If the intent of the law is upheld, then those 4 words don't matter.

If they want to cause a big stink and repeal the law for Political points, they can.

Is the State a State, or is the State the United States.
Their victims that have been harmed by those 4 words have been discredited.


They could easily fix the law by changing the words
But the Republicans won't allow any changes out of spite.

Why not just fix it?
and add more cost controls
how about working within the law to make it better
Republicans, answer that.

They can even rename it
"Boehner Care"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2015 - 10:08am PT
Craig, no I haven't looked at this as I my jaundiced view of law doesn't make me a happy
camper when I see what is right being subverted by semantics. I'm pissed at the Dems for
not crafting a constitutional law and I'm pissed at these phuktards who are seeking to over-
turn it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 4, 2015 - 10:24am PT
If the intent of the law is upheld, then those 4 words don't matter.

That violates judicial canons of statutory construction. If one construction makes some words irrelevant, but a second construction makes all words relevant, courts are to choose that second construction of the statute. Otherwise, courts could ignore words like "not" if they decided they liked the statute better that way.

Before you say that never happens, I'll give you an example where it does. In the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978 (the current Bankruptcy Code, with amendments) Section 361 provides ways that a secured creditor's interest may and may not be adequately protected. When the legislation was first drafted, it included one method (allowance of an administrative expense) as a permissible adequate protection. The final bill changed that to say that an administrative expense may not be used as adequate protection. The legislative history reported on the original bill, not the final law, so if one consulted the legislative history, one would conclude that Congress intended to allow what the statute said was disallowed.

Using the legislative history, parties attempted to say that Congress intended to allow what was explicitly disallowed. Needless to say, those arguments got nowhere.

I still think the ACA will be upheld, probably on a 5-4 or 6-3 vote, because the court has a majority that is exceedingly deferential to the legislative branch, but it will be interesting to see how they get around those four words.

John
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 4, 2015 - 10:36am PT
but it will be interesting to see how they get around those four words.

one word

"intent"
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 4, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
Brilliant site! http://americanloons.blogspot.com/
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 5, 2015 - 06:48am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/414842/charity-event-cancelled-because-having-maracas-poster-was-offensive-katherine-timpf


why do liberals hate foster children so much?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 5, 2015 - 06:54am PT
Maracas...

Lynching photos.


Potaytoes...

Potahtoes.


Unbelievable.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 5, 2015 - 08:38am PT
The first order of the Republican Senate?

Eliminate the Filibuster!
or lower the threshold to 54 votes, the same as their majority.

This is after they used the Filibuster to Obstruct almost every Bill since 2006 when they lost their majority of 50 votes.

They used the filibuster to keep the unemployment high, to stop any economic recovery, to keep Americans poor and hungry, to work against the President at every step, and a 100 more ways that we could have improved the lives of millions.

Now all of sudden, they don't like the Dems playing the same game of obstruction.

Wow, can they be any bigger of hypocrites?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 5, 2015 - 09:04am PT
The first order of the Republican Senate?

Eliminate the Filibuster!
or lower the threshold to 54 votes, the same as their majority.

Those Republicans are a savvy bunch.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 5, 2015 - 09:54am PT
"Now all of sudden, they don't like the Dems playing the same game of obstruction.
"

Yep, that's pretty much been the political tactic for both Parties for years. It sure would be nice to see actual, effective leadership that involves introducing reasonable legislation or policy that is in the primary interests of average citizens, and having the other Party help modify it to work for as many interests as possible.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 5, 2015 - 10:00am PT
It sure would be nice to see actual, effective leadership that involves introducing reasonable legislation or policy that is in the primary interests of average citizens, and having the other Party help modify it to work for as many interests as possible.


the last time that happened was shortly after the Republicans passed the Great Socialism
Medicare Prescription Drug legislation around 03

there were many problems with its implementation, and so the Democrats stepped up an willingly joined the Republicans in passing additional legislation to "fix" it

don't hold your breath expecting the Repubs to do the same and join in to fix a damn thing
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2015 - 10:05am PT
I think congress should try again to repeal obamacare.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 5, 2015 - 10:16am PT
I think Congress should pass a Campaign Finance Amendment, placing strict limits on contributions.

Will it happen?

Not in my lifetime.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 5, 2015 - 10:24am PT
I think Congress should pass a Campaign Finance Amendment, placing strict limits on contributions.

congress did exactly that, McCain/Feingold legislation

which was negated by the Citizen's United SCOTUS Decision 5-4 "conservative" majority
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 5, 2015 - 11:12am PT
Norton, the key word in Edward's post was "amendment." Congress passed legislation that violated the First Amendment.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 5, 2015 - 11:22am PT
There is a push to Amend the Constitution that would fix "Citizen's United"

The amendment would say that only "People are Persons"

"Corporations are People too" only exists in the minds of people that want to subvert the original "intent" of the Constitution





We the People, Not We the Corporations
https://movetoamend.org/


On January 21, 2010, with its ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are persons, entitled by the U.S. Constitution to buy elections and run our government. Human beings are people; corporations are legal fictions.

We, the People of the United States of America, reject the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Citizens United and other related cases, and move to amend our Constitution to firmly establish that money is not speech, and that human beings, not corporations, are persons entitled to constitutional rights.

The Supreme Court is misguided in principle, and wrong on the law. In a democracy, the people rule.

We Move to Amend.


". . . corporations have no consciences, no beliefs, no feelings, no thoughts, no desires. Corporations help structure and facilitate the activities of human beings, to be sure, and their 'personhood' often serves as a useful legal fiction. But they are not themselves members of “We the People” by whom and for whom our Constitution was established."

~Supreme Court Justice Stevens, January 2010

The Koch Brothers will have more than $1 Billions to spend in 2016 to buy our Political Representatives. And most of that money will be spent on Negative Advertising.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 5, 2015 - 11:26am PT
I've signed one (or more) on-line petitions supporting such an amendment.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 5, 2015 - 11:26am PT
So you would argue, Craig, that the New York Times Co. (a corporation) had no First Amendment rights when Bull Connor sued it. The Warren Court thought otherwise in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 5, 2015 - 11:27am PT
I'm not going to argue with you about it John

I say Move to Amend, end of comment
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 5, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
I second Craig's motion
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 5, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
John,
If Craig's desire for move to amend were successful, would unions fall under the same rules as corporations in campaign finance?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 5, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
Unions are a collection of people that want the Union to pool their funds for the political reason of maintaining their livelihood.

But if we amend the Constitution so it gets rid of "Corporations are people" and Unions are no longer able make political contributions, then I guess they lose and we will have to live with that lose.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 5, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
Unions are a collection of people that want the Union to pool their funds for the political reason of maintaining their livelihood.

Unless you belong to the Longshoreman's Union in which case you belong to
a terroristic organization dedicated to extortion. Many California farmers
lost their whole crop this year because those gangsters prevented them from
getting their crops to market. Many small truckers also lost a significant
percentage of their income. The Longshoremen also actively resist all
attempts to modernize the ports.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 5, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Maybe you need to do a bit more research, Reilly. Really.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 5, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
Unions are a collection of people that want the Union to pool their funds for the political reason of maintaining their livelihood.

You mean like corporations, which are collection of people pooling their funds to engage in a business to maintain their livelihoods?

The arguments offered by those who attack Citizens United leave little doubt that they do so because they want to silence those with whom they disagree.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 5, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
I said stop the unions for making contributions if it means the rid ourselves of Citizen's United


There are Very Few that support Citizen's United, and those people either have huge cash to spend buying their Republican Reps.
Or they deny the ramifications of it out of Partisan delusion


All of the Koch Billions will be undisclosed Dark Money
They can do it legally by funneling it through anyone of 100s of right wing Non-profits
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 5, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
The arguments offered by those who attack Citizens United leave little doubt that they do so because they want to silence those with whom they disagree.

very true, John

and cannot the same be said about your own disagreement with collective bargaining?

because....you don't want unions to have influence, to be "silent"?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 5, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
The arguments offered by those who attack Citizens United leave little doubt that they do so because they want to silence those with whom they disagree.

I believe everyone should have a voice. Since the CU ruling, it seems the overwhelming majority have a low volume voice. The other one percent have their voice turned up to eleven.


JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 5, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
Norton I don't object to collective bargaining in the private sector, or even in the public sector, because it lowers transactions costs and can be mutually beneficial to both labor and management. I object to allowing public employee unions to strike, because they are performing government functions, and "protecting" their members from those rapacious citizens. In addition, the obvious conflict of interest in the political arena makes the collection and use of union dues for political purposes problematic.

John
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 5, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
Gary, do point out where I am wrong.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 5, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
.
I object to allowing public employee unions to strike, because they are performing government functions

I agree 100%

however John, am I correct that you have modified, mitigated, your prior more strident opposition to unions?

or are you holding back.....
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 6, 2015 - 05:58am PT
Hillary is being pushed aside!
She deserves it!

Personal in home server = benghazi still in our hearts.

Long live constitutional people...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 6, 2015 - 06:36am PT
DMT looks like dems want some fresh meat..
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 6, 2015 - 07:24am PT
Hillary was following the e-mail Protocol of the Time.

They didn't provide a special Gov. Sec of State e-mail or require it by law until After she stepped down.
Colin Powell used his private e-mail while he was Sec. of State.


This is just another hit job by the MSM to weaken her before 2016.

Supposedly, her e-mail account was more secure than the Gov.
So go ahead and search for Benghazi, fools.
Hope we spend several 100 million on another wild goose chase.

It sickens me to see all the folks at the alleged "center" just go along with the destruction of the Dems while the Repubs get a free ride.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 07:28am PT
I will almost certainly vote for her because the alternative would probably be unthinkable.

But I 100% agree with your anti-dynastic sentiments, which is one of the reasons I did not vote for her in 2008.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 6, 2015 - 07:32am PT
There is No Clinton dynasty.

There is only Bill and Hillary.

The Bush Family is a Dynasty.

First there was Prescott Bush,
that got rich funding the Nazi War machine.
And was part of a unsuccessful fascist coup on FDR.
A Google search of him is fascinating. I wonder why the MSM never talks about him?

Then George H.W. Bush
Then George W. Bush
Then Jeb Bush

That's a dynasty !
WBraun

climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 07:35am PT
What????

I'm voting for Bibi Nutcaseyahooo for POTUS.

What could ever go wrong ........
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 6, 2015 - 07:40am PT
"She will not be getting my vote, should she run."

So you'll likely sit this one out, then? That's a shame. The result could be catastrophic.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 07:42am PT
Craig, there are 300,000,000 people in the U. S.

We don't have to keep settling on the same two families to run things.

Hillary is a remarkable woman but without her personal connection to Bill we would not be having this discussion about her.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 07:58am PT
There will be an election, d'bag. If someone else is out there let them throw their hat in the ring and let's see what happens.
She's the only one who can beat Jeb, imo.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 08:10am PT
I agree. I said I was probably going to vote for her. And, I understand she is probably the most electable candidate.

But I can't say that I have any great enthusiasm looking at a ballot with the same names as before
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:21am PT
We don't have to keep settling on the same two families to run things.

I Whole Heartily agree!

But it's not up to us, it's who is willing to put themselves up for election, and Hillary is doing that.

So if she is the Democratic candidate, I will happily vote for her.

I would recommend that you vote for anyone you want for President.

BUT, please vote for Democratic Congress People

You may think your Repub Congressman has great ideas and is better than the Dem, but it doesn't matter, because it's all about having a Majority in Congress, and if we have a Repub majority, you can expect more dysfunctional Government

Serious question
IS that what you want to vote for?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:42am PT
Guess you failed to watch the interim elections this year where the people voted out dems across the country

Wrong
I watched what happened, was it good thing????????????//


And actually there were 10s of millions of more votes for Dems, but the system is rigged so the Repubs won more seats.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:43am PT
The Clinton / Bush race won't happen, thank God.
Modern campaigns last longer than modern Christmas shopping seasons. Sells stories for the press.

Most republican frontrunners are somewhat young but unproven. Any Bush will be unelectable for the next generation or more.
Get the popcorn and see who self destructs.

The democrat frontrunners are dinosaurs.
Hillary is America's ex-wife. She is old and unhealthy. She has too much Clinton baggage. Not gonna happen.
Sanders, who has more personal integrity than the other dem contenders, but would be the oldest president in history and the first avowed socialist. Not gonna happen.
Biden, even with the clown nose off, is still old and a sideshow. Not gonna happen.
Warren is old and given to fudging her personal history. I think she's losing interest. Not gonna happen.

The dems need someone younger and refreshing coming out of left field (heh), much like Obama did in 2007. The problem is they can't point fingers at Bush anymore and must run on their record of a slow recovery and an administration who's lack of transparency and snooping make Nixon look like a talk show host.

O'malley is looking like he will try a run, but does he have baggage?
Jim Webb has character, a compelling personal story and is a centrist.
Others may emerge, still a lot of time.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:47am PT
And actually there were 10s of millions of more votes for Dems.

Don't lie.

It's so unattractive.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:52am PT
This will be the last time I respond to the Troll EdwardT

after he accused me of LYING

Can't you please ask me to verify my claims rather than slander me with defamation accusations?
Talk about ugly?

all I had to was Google the exact words "Dems got 10s of millions of more votes than Repubs in 2014"

Please respect my decision by not responding to my posts anymore.

WTF: Senate Democrats Received 20 Million More Votes Than Republicans In Midterms

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/01/04/republicans-seem-to-steal-elections/
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:58am PT
Dave Kos wrote:
Why can't we get more people like him on the short list?

IMO, because the modern process of elections is about popularity and the cool factor, not character and leadership.
Maybe we need IQ tests for the right to vote.
Maybe we need to bump the voting age up to 26 when people get off their parents health plans, see reality, and start paying their own way.
Somewhat tongue in cheek, but still just sayin.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:00am PT
Locker,
LMAO, I agree. Biden is nothing if not entertaining.
That's one of the reasons I miss Bubba Clinton
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Winners are determined by which candidate gets the most corporate and PAC money.

Its a schizophrenic beauty contest.

LOL, or as some comedian once said: Washington is Hollywood for ugly people".

Once in awhile the guy with the money will lose, like Cantor did in Virginia. But money will always be the mother's milk.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:09am PT
Craig - You should work on your reading comprehension. The story you posted is about votes cast for the current Senate. It combines the votes cast in 2010, 2012 and 2014.

Regarding the 2014 Senate elections, Republican candidates received 3 million more votes Democratic candidates.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G14/SenateVoteByParty.phtml

What I'd like to know is what's the basis for all your hostility against conservatives? It's not that you simply disagree. You seem to have a deep seated hatred for those who challenge your political views. You don't seem to handle well.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:09am PT
I could see President Biden at a world crises summit coping a feel on Angela Merkel.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:13am PT
this is for u Craig fry!
creeping alzheimers....
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 09:22am PT
Yes pyro, republicans tend to win rural districts where no one lives, and Dems tend to win more urban areas that are population centers.


So ?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:22am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Well we have a Red Country.

Owned by the Big Buck Master Authoritarians, a public duped by their misinformation.

How can you run a Country when your only interest is Being against everything the Right Wing Media goes hysterical about..

What about doing something for the Country Positive, when will the Repubs care about that?

You voted for it, you own it.
What have they done?



Do you know what Red signifies?
Authoritarian Rule, just like Red China and Russia.
Or the decline of Democracy
Wow, you guys must be proud of your Redness


I'm sorry to let you down, but Blue is Not the same as Red.

They are diametrically opposed on almost every issue, only the Propaganda is the same.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:04am PT
Twelve months with job growth over two hundred thousand, and a declining discouraged job force.

But, Obama is killing this country! We are headed toward third world status!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:11am PT
It tells me that people are signing up for the ACA, and that it's working appropriately.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:14am PT
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 10:18am PT
It's cute when Ron makes up facts about job growth. I'm sure he has an anecdote or two that proves everything. Lol.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 10:19am PT
It's also cute when sketch whines about the ACA.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:25am PT
Well, these are a year old, but FWIW



EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:28am PT
It's also cute when sketch whines about the ACA.

Whining?

Where?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:32am PT
Well Dayum, Larry.

Those graphs don't look good. Not good at all.

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 11:13am PT
A lot of those stores are dinosaurs.

As Locker said, radio shack is a relic.

Blockbuster got netflixed.

Sears and jcpenneys seriously f*#ked up and their business plan, which was stale anyway.

So what?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 11:15am PT
You forgot about Acme buggy whips.

They are struggling too.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 6, 2015 - 11:15am PT
Lumber liquidators!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 11:18am PT
The jobs aren't going away, they are just shifting to other businesses.

The graphs Larry posted tell a different story.

The labor force participation rate remains at historically low rates.

Americans not in the labor force is at a historically high, 92.6 million.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
Thanks for your insight, Republican Dave.
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
Staples office stores, Radio Shack stores, Sears Stores, Albertsons grocery stores, Scolaris grocery stores, Block Buster video stores, Barnes and Knoble book stores, Office Dept/Max stores, J Penny stores, family dollar stores, cold Water Creek stores, Rent-a-centers, bROWNS sHOE COMPANY, KMart, Game Stop, Childrens Place, Walgreens , 7-11, and thousands of small private businesses .

Ron, come on. You seriously can't blame the government for this.
Most of these companies are the victims of corporate mismanagement.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
What exactly IS your problem, Sketch?

what kind of psychosis do you have that makes you see everything as negative?

were you bullied on the playground?

low self esteem from always seeing other people as much smarter than you?

jealous that no good woman would want to be with you?

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
What exactly IS your problem, Sketch?

what kind of psychosis do you have that makes you see everything as negative?

were you bullied on the playground?

low self esteem from always seeing other people as much smarter than you?

jealous that no good woman would want to be with you?

We're fortunate to have posters like you, unwilling to resort to cheap personal attacks.

You're awesome.

so awesome.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
Yes Ron, there will always be businesses going under.

And, there will always be new businesses arising to hire unemployed people.

Let me guess, you are moonlighting as an economics professor? A labor consultant?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
"...republicans tend to win rural districts where no one lives, and Dems tend to win more urban areas that are population centers. "


Yes, and there were more Repub votes in the last election than Dem votes because more Democratic voters stayed home.

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:45pm PT
The Dow is down 300 points.

Anyone know the last time the Dow lost 300 points?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
Yes pyro, republicans tend to win rural districts where no one lives, and Dems tend to win more urban areas that are population centers.

Could you list one of those districts.... where no one lives?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 6, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
"Anyone know the last time the Dow lost 300 points?"

I'm thinking sometime around 2007? That was downright disastrous, wasn't it?

Who was POTUS at that time?

Oh, yeah...right...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 6, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
Staples office stores, Radio Shack stores, Sears Stores, Albertsons grocery stores, Scolaris grocery stores, Block Buster video stores, Barnes and Knoble book stores, Office Dept/Max stores, J Penny stores, family dollar stores, cold Water Creek stores, Rent-a-centers, bROWNS sHOE COMPANY, KMart, Game Stop, Childrens Place, Walgreens , 7-11,

Isn't this what happens in a capitalist economy? there are winners, and losers. It seems like the conservatives cheer this, because it means that losers pay for being losers. Those people who lose jobs keep the salaries of everyone down due to the increased availability of labor.

What is the alternative? Gov't programs to help struggling companies? Isn't that what we did with GM?? Didn't the Conservatives scream and cry over that, that GM and all its suppliers should have been allowed to fail?

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
Well played, Dave. ;-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 6, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
And DMT, you said it somewhere......it's all about the Supreme Court.

Whoever is elected will be most certainly appointing people who will be in power for as long as 40 years. They have absolute power, with no check. They are not elected.

Consider carefully who you would want appointing these positions.....
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
.



Could you list one of those districts.... where no one lives?

Yes.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
Ron, all we can ask for is improvement.

The President walked into the biggest economic mess since the depression. It is going to take time to recover.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
Sketch, why did you come back?

No one --I mean--no one--likes you, missed you, appreciated your posts, or insults, or thought you had anything interesting thing to say.

I suppose you are here because you enjoy trolling people who don't like you.
What does that say about you?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 6, 2015 - 01:27pm PT

92 million Americans no longer in the work force don't think it's much of a recovery and certainly don't care what the stock market is doing.

The king is good to his crony buddies, but don't dis the king if you're dirty!

http://www.wptz.com/politics/menendez-white-houses-least-favorite-dem/31656092

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/feds-charge-menendez-corruption_877687.html
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
Hey Dirtbag - Let's see those districts "where no one lives"!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
Wow sketch, so I said districts instead of regions.

Sue me.

Do you have any other grand point to make?



dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
It's ok, tgt, someday another white man will be president .
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 6, 2015 - 01:42pm PT
I said districts instead of regions.

Oh! Okay.

Sue me

Easy there, sport. It's no biggie.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 6, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
Isn't this what happens in a capitalist economy? there are winners, and losers. It seems like the conservatives cheer this, because it means that losers pay for being losers. Those people who lose jobs keep the salaries of everyone down due to the increased availability of labor.

What is the alternative? Gov't programs to help struggling companies? Isn't that what we did with GM?? Didn't the Conservatives scream and cry over that, that GM and all its suppliers should have been allowed to fail?

Thank you, Ken, for engaging in discussing one of the most important aspects - and strengths - of the American economic system.. I'll admit my bias - for three decades I limited my practice to business insolvency and bankruptcy. The bankruptcy laws of the United States are one of its greatest strengths, because it allows resources misdirected to less productive uses to be redirected into more productive uses.

In more statist economies, the government intervenes to maintain the status quo, with the result the country's economic system is stuck in a time warp where the price of goods and services relative to the wages of workers is higher than it otherwise would be. The reason should be obvious. Those industries possessing greater political power will force everyone else to pay to maintain their inefficient ways.

My favorite example - because even those on the left agree - is our sugar price supports. Those price supports work by limiting the amount of imported sugar to keep domestic prices artificially high. Econometricians of all political leanings have estimated that for every domestic job it saves, it loses anywhere between 10 and 100 because it causes American producers who use sugar as a major input to have a competitive disadvantage relative to those who pay a competitive price.

Try changing the system, though, and the political clout of the status quo comes through. Those dependent on the artificially high sugar price exert greater political influence because the price affects them greatly. The overall effect on the economy, and on Americans as a whole, is much greater on the negative side, but because that negative effect is dispersed, it isn't a big issue for most people.

Yes, Ken, the cost of losing is borne by the workers and suppliers, temporarily, and by the owners permanently. To take your example, if GM went under, what do you think would have happened to employment in Detroit? GM would have filed a Chapter 11. GM would have continued to produce and sell cars while the Chapter 11 process moved along. It would result either in confirmation of a plan where the shareholders lost everything, the secured creditors were paid the value of their collateral, the unsecured creditors took a major haircut, and the assets transferred to new investors, or it would have been converted to a Chapter 7 liquidation, where the shareholders lost everything, the secured creditors got the value of their collateral, the unsecured creditors took a bigger haircut, and the assets transferred to new owners.

Gee, isn't that exactly what happened? The real objection to the government's GM plan was that the government's thumb on the scales unfairly paid some creditors who weren't entitled to those rights under law, but in truth, the outcome would have taken longer, but been the same for the employees and the use of the assets. As many foreign automakers have discovered, making cars in the USA has a tremendous advantage if you want to sell those cars in the USA.

If we didn't have the sorts of bankruptcy laws we have here, and instead had a government that tried to keep every industry going as it is, we'd still be propping up buggy whip makers, and cleaning up one hell of a lot of horse manure. Ironically, the self-styled "progressives" tend to support economically reactionary policies designed to maintain the status quo and stop changes that enrich ordinary people by getting them more and better goods for less.

We have unemployment, job training and re-training, and welfare programs for employees who lose their jobs because they work in industries or firms that cannot support them financially. We have no such programs for investors generally except in politically favored industries and market segments.

For example, we want to encourage home ownership so the government guarantees most of the credit financial institutions extend to home buyers. When the government then instructs those lenders to relax their underwriting criteria, is it any surprise that we end up with bursting bubbles? Then there are all the "green energy" subsidies, etc. Those investors get welfare. In my opinion, the government would do well to get out of the "corporate welfare" business.

I could go on, but I have work and climbing to do, so I'll sign off until next week.

John
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 6, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
Lezarian...Interesting post but as i recall , the American taxpayer , aka , working stiffs , bailed out the too big to fail banks...Kind of shoots down your black and white view doesn't it..?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 6, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
Saddlebags helps bro fleece Haitians.


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/03/05/gold-mine-hillary-clintons-brother-granted-super-rare-mining-permit-from-haiti-after-state-dept-sent-country-billions/


No wonder she wanted a private Email Server!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 6, 2015 - 04:23pm PT

THANKS in advance!!!...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 6, 2015 - 04:56pm PT
When the government then instructs those lenders to relax their underwriting criteria, ...

Did that really happen?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 6, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
When the government then instructs those lenders to relax their underwriting criteria, ...

why did your Republicans who had the Presidency, House, and Senate from 2000-2006
fail to tighten the mortgage underwriting standards, JohnE?

also, when they had complete control why did they not increase regulation on financial
derivatives, John?

and remember what happened? The US economy went into the Great Recession

because they were too busy holding hearings investigating their own Iraq Nation Building?

when do you, John, stand up and defend the horrible record your Republicans have?
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
This guy is another example of republican intelligence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2015/03/05/rep-don-young-wolves-would-solve-homelessness/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 6, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
I think rock jox voted for that Young character..?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
JEleazarian wrote:
In my opinion, the government would do well to get out of the "corporate welfare" business.

Amen to that. The government never should have bailed out the automakers. The government should not have bailed out the banks. The government should be wary of subsidizing any industry.
As John has appreciated before because of his expertise in bankruptcy law: Capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without Hell.
The partnership of government with big business totally perverts capitalism.
Why is it that the bigger the business, the more they invite government regulation? This is a hard fast rule and is pretty much true across the board.

Check out the definition of economic liberalism in Wikipedia. Ironically it means the opposite of what most believe.
Economic liberalism is often associated with support for free markets and private ownership of capital goods, and is usually contrasted with similar ideologies such as social liberalism and social democracy, which generally favor alternative forms of capitalism such as welfare capitalism, state capitalism or mixed economies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
I had the displeasure of crossing paths with Don Young 25 years ago in Alaska. Getting on a Twin Otter in the Kenai airport during the winter, I was having a conversation with a nice lady. A guy in a suit sits next to her and says "Hi, I'm Don Young and I am running for Congress" He then hijacked a nice conversation and the dialogue turned into a monologue of his opinions. Typical politician. I soon just leaned back, closed my eyes and I don't really know when he stopped talking to me. I think he got my point.

One of the reasons I liked Sarah Palin at first is that she was peeing in the Wheaties of the old republican establishment in Alaska. Took awhile, but then it became obvious that she was in a little over her head. Of course a whole boatload of Washington DC pols of both parties are in over their heads as well.

The longer these people spend in Washington DC, the more out of touch they are to the people. They are all residents of DC and just vacation to their "home districts".

“The ever expanding power of the federal government, the absorption of many of the functions that states and cities once considered to be the responsibilities of their own, must now be a source of concern to all those who believe as did the Irish Patriot, Henry Grattan: ‘Control over local affairs is the essence of liberty.’”
John F. Kennedy

Edit: I just started watching "House of Cards" on Netflix. Classic.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
House of Cards is fun!

Edit:
"...that she was WAAAAAAAAAYYYYY the f*#k over her brainless, little head."

Fixed that for ya.
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 6, 2015 - 09:36pm PT
One more from Don.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/22/don-young-suicide-comments_n_6027590.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
We have no such programs for investors generally except in politically favored industries and market segments.

REALLY? You must not own anything that gets very favored capital gains treatment.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 6, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
John, I really think you ignore history.

The GM problem came at the height of the recession, where a major hit on employment could easily have sent us into a real depression.

There was a great uncertainty about the path of bankruptcy, and as evidence, YOUR POST, in which you hypothesize several different options---which means that there was and is uncertainty, even now, about what would have happened.
That does not even touch on the corollary effect on the economy as a whole from such a hit. We were in free-fall. The action was not to start stripping things off, it was to pull a ripcord.

I don't disagree that the MANNER in which we saved the banks was flawed. However, had we not saved the banks, our economy would have collapsed, and we'd have entered a depression that would have made the great depression seem minor.

Bernanke, from the movie "too big to fail":
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS1QPtO4KdM
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 7, 2015 - 11:54pm PT
Giuliani is looking like a complete idiot today...

jess sayin
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 8, 2015 - 07:05am PT
I Don’t Love Spock
By Matthew Continetti — March 7, 2015

“I loved Spock,” said President Obama, reacting to the death of actor Leonard Nimoy. Why? Because Spock reminds him of himself. The galaxy’s most famous Vulcan, the president wrote, was “Cool, logical, big-eared, and level headed, the center of Star Trek’s optimistic, inclusive vision of humanity’s future.” Just like you know whom.

The president is not the only writer who has drawn comparisons between himself and Spock. I am also a Star Trek fan, but I admit I was somewhat confused by my rather apathetic reaction to Nimoy’s death. And as I thought more about the president’s statement, I realized he identifies with the very aspects of the Spock character that most annoy me. I don’t love Spock at all.

Not only do Spock’s peacenik inclinations routinely land the Enterprise and the Federation into trouble, his “logic” and “level head” mask an arrogant emotional basket case. Unlike the superhuman android Data, a loyal officer whose deepest longing is to be human, Spock spends most of his life as a freelancing diplomat eager to negotiate with the worst enemies of Starfleet. He’s the opposite of a role model: a cautionary tale.

Spock cares only for himself. He returns to the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979) only because he believes the superior intelligence of V’ger might help him finally purge all human elements from his soul. True, he sacrifices himself for the good of the ship in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan (1982), but Spock’s renunciation of self is not as total as we are led to believe. He knows he has a fallback position. He knocks out McCoy and — without the doctor’s consent — transfers part of his consciousness to his old friend.

The crew then spends the following two movies breaking countless regulations to bring Spock back to life. They steal the Enterprise, illegally pilot it out of Space Dock, trespass on the Genesis planet, blow up the Enterprise, hijack a bird-of-prey and kill its entire crew, take the stolen Klingon vessel to Vulcan, and return to Earth despite a travel ban imposed by the president of the Federation at the beginning of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (1986). Illustrating the absurdly liberal future envisioned by Gene Rodenberry, where there is no money or human want or, apparently, rule of law, despite all of these crimes Kirk and Spock and company are rewarded with a brand new ship at the end of the fourth film.

Spock is the reason Sybok captures this just-off-the-assembly-line Enterprise in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (1989) and comes very close to delivering it to an insane, frightening god entity that sounds like Orson Welles. Most damning to his reputation, however, has got to be the mess Spock creates in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991). Unbeknownst to his best friend, Spock has taken up secret negotiations with the Federation’s mortal enemy, the Klingon Empire, to dismantle the neutral zone and end the military dimension of Starfleet. Then Spock decides the best person to accompany the Klingon high chancellor to a galactic peace conference is Kirk, whom the Klingon’s despise (in the words of the great John Schuck: “There shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives!”) and who hates them in return. What a brilliant idea.

Furthermore, Spock volunteers Kirk for the job without the captain’s permission. His decision thoughtlessly plays into the hands of the interstellar conspiracy to foment war between the Federation and the Klingons, because the plot’s leaders see Kirk as the perfect fall guy for the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon.

Spock’s ethnocentrism, combined with “illogical” romantic attraction, leads him to promote one of the conspirators, Lieutenant Valeris, to a bridge position wherefrom she manipulates the investigation into Gorkon’s death, conceals evidence, and murders two co-conspirators. Some judge of character, that Spock.

Then, when Kirk surrenders himself to General Chang, Spock plants a ridiculously conspicuous Viridian Patch on Kirk’s shoulder so he can trace the captain’s whereabouts. But he has no need to track Kirk because the captain’s trial is broadcast across the quadrant and the Klingon judge says specifically where Kirk and McCoy will be imprisoned.

A routine planetary scan of Rura Penthe would have alerted the Enterprise the moment Kirk emerged from the energy shield. Was Spock hoping the Klingons would see the patch and murder him and McCoy for attempting to escape? We’ll never know.

Kirk eventually figures out the murder mystery and once again saves civilization. But Spock’s colossal blunder does not stop him from disappearing from the Federation decades later and turning up on Romulus, where he begins unauthorized negotiations with yet another illiberal adversary of the Federation. This time he has befriended Romulan Senator Pardek, with whom he hopes to arrange for the unification of the Vulcan and Romulan peoples.

But of course Pardek is playing Spock for a fool. Reunification is a guise for an audacious Romulan invasion of Vulcan that draws inspiration from the Soviet taking of Iceland in Red Storm Rising (1986). It is only because the Enterprise-D has been sent to the neutral zone, and Captain Picard and Lieutenant Commander Data have been dispatched to Romulus to locate and secure Spock, that the plot against the Federation is revealed before it’s too late.

I also find it noteworthy that Commander Sela and Proconsul Neral believe there is a chance that Spock will actively cooperate with their plan — evidence that the ambassador’s loyalties aren’t clear even to the Romulans. What’s more, despite inadvertently starting yet another war, Spock insists he remain on the home world of the most aggressive and conniving galactic power. In a massive (but unusual) lapse in judgment, Picard agrees.

Amazingly, though, such disastrous negotiations with Klingons and Romulans aren’t even the worst things Spock does. If we accept Star Trek (2009) as canon then the “cool” and “level-headed” Spock is responsible for the destruction not only of his home world and the death of 6 billion Vulcans but of the entire Star Trek timeline that audiences have loved for almost 50 years. As usual, evil happens because Spock is too idealistic, too in thrall to a value-neutral conception of science, to consider the unintended consequences of his actions.

The 2009 movie has a backstory that is complicated and silly, and I am too tired to recount it in detail so you can read a synopsis here. Nevertheless, Star Trek is an enjoyable picture that is revealing of Spock’s awfulness. It shows how Spock (played by Zachary Quinto) is tormented, physically and mentally, by the fact that his mother is human, how Mr. Logic is actually a boiling kettle of fury, resentment, passion, and ambition. Spock is a jerk to his girlfriend Uhura (Zoe Saldana), who is way out of his league. He almost kills Kirk (Chris Pine). He is so overcome with emotion he relieves himself from duty in the middle of a huge crisis.

Spock is rude to his father. “I never knew what Spock was doing,” Sarek (Mark Lenard) tells Picard in “Unification 1.” “When he was a boy, he would disappear for days into the mountains. I would ask him where he had gone, what he had done; he’d refuse to tell me. I forbade him to go; he ignored me.” Spock and Sarek fight constantly throughout the Trek continuity, despite Sarek’s offering his son countless diplomatic opportunities that Spock invariably messes up. Then Spock ignores his father for years as Sarek suffers from Bendai Syndrome and dies.

And Obama likes this selfish jerk? The coolness the president so appreciates in Spock is a thin veneer over a remarkably arrogant and off-putting detachment from human suffering. Dr. McCoy, played by the charming DeForest Kelley, bitingly exposed this truth about Spock’s nature again and again. Discussing the Genesis Project in Wrath of Khan, for example, Spock lectures McCoy, “Really, Dr. McCoy. You must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing. Logic suggests —”

But McCoy won’t hear it — and he’s right. “Logic? My God, the man’s talking about logic; we’re taking about universal Armageddon!”

All Spock can do is pretentiously raise his famous eyebrow.

Spock is ashamed of his humanity. He flees it. In Star Trek VI Kirk tells Spock, “Everyone’s human.” Spock says he finds that sentiment offensive.

My favorite scene in “Unification 2”: Spock and Data are alone, collaborating on a technical project. Spock muses on the Vulcan aspects of Captain Picard, which Data finds curious because Picard has been a model for his emulation of humanity. Spock can’t understand why Data would want to be more human. “You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills, no emotional impediments,” he says. “There are Vulcans who aspire all their lives to achieve what you’ve been given by design.”

“You are half human?” Data asks.

“Yes,” Spock says.

“Yet you have chosen a Vulcan way of life?”

“I have,” Spock says.

“In effect,” says Data, “you have abandoned what I have sought all my life.”

The two look at each other in silence.

It’s in this scene where Data’s superiority to Spock is most apparent. Data not only has the mental and physical edge over practically everyone, he is curious and earnest and humane, while Spock is moody, flip, detached, and self-consciously superior. Data wants to fit in, while Spock displaces his anxieties over his bicultural heritage onto his family and work relationships. Data’s words and actions are the result of blind unerring computation, while Spock is a creature of inner conflict and envies his famous and high achieving father. I’d pick Data over Spock for my first officer any day.

What Leonard Nimoy’s death revealed is that there is a sizable portion of Trek fans, and of nerds in general, that identifies with Spock’s neuroses, his hang-ups, his self-loathing, that are attracted to the cold soulless abstractions through which he views life, who believe in the naïve and ineffective diplomacy in which he so thoughtlessly and recklessly and harmfully engages. I can’t help but find this revelation disturbing. One of those fans happens to be the president of the United States who, like Spock, has derided the notion of helping to end the slaughter of the Syrian Civil War as illogical while giving up leverage in his negotiations with Iran. It will take America some time to recover from the legacy of our Spock-loving president — though probably not as long as it will take my friends to stop laughing at me for writing this column.

— Matthew Continetti is the editor-in-chief of the Washington Free Beacon, where this column first appeared. © 2015 All rights reserved
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 8, 2015 - 07:18am PT
I just skimmed that but it's probably the most stupid thing posted on this thread in quite some time. A high bar indeed!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2015 - 07:35am PT
This.^^^

Plus, Spock was in favor of informed consent before students have sexual contact.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 8, 2015 - 07:46am PT
Bookworm scores another home run with the Spock post. LOL
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 8, 2015 - 09:57am PT
Yeah , i was upset when i found out Obama liked that jerk Nimoy..I'm voting for Jeb Bush..
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 8, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/green-party/11456572/Rodents-to-be-given-human-rights-under-Green-Party-plans.html

of course, this reveals the ugly truth about liberalism: people are just rats to prop up the state; just remember, libs, eventually, you'll be the only rats left, and the state will eat you, too
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 8, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
Dirtbag wrote:
Plus, Spock was in favor of informed consent before students have sexual contact.

Speaking of informed consent, Two California teachers were recently charged with having sex with students and giving them cocaine. On the plus side, the students involved had perfect attendance (Hat tip to a late night comedian).

Here is one reason I always preferred Star Trek to Star Wars.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 8, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
lol^^^^^^


worm has problems...lol
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 9, 2015 - 07:15am PT
what liberalism hath wrought


woman, at gym, goes into WOMEN'S locker room to change
man, wearing women's clothing, goes into WOMEN'S locker room

woman complains about man in WOMEN'S locker room

woman loses membership for being "judgmental"

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/planet-fitness-revokes-womans-membership-transgender-complaint/story?id=29465983


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2015 - 07:28am PT
When he uses the words "hath wrought" you should listen up because you know what he is saying is very, very important and deep.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 9, 2015 - 08:39am PT

How to Become a Conservative in Four Embarrassing Steps


Not that we'd want to. But many Americans, perplexingly, have taken that path in the last ten years.

By Paul Buchheit / AlterNet

March 8, 2015
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/how-become-conservative-four-embarrassing-steps


The language of true conservatives often turns to denial, dismissal, and/or belligerence, without verifiable facts of any substance. There is also evidence for delusional thinking and a lack of empathy. Here are four ways to be just like them.

1. Ignore Facts

Research shows that conservatives tend to modify facts to accommodate their beliefs and convictions, while liberals are more willing to deal with the complexity of multiple sources of information that help determine the true facts.

In simpler terms, numerous studies (here, here, here, and here) conclude that conservatives are not very smart.

Perhaps the best example of fact-aversion is climate change. Incredibly, even though 97 percent of climate scientists agree that climate warming is very likely due to human activities, 66 percent of Republicans say they do not believe in global warming.

It's even more incredible that the Chair of the Committee on the Environment, James Inhofe, brought a snowball to the Senate floor to back up his earlier suggestion that manmade global warming is "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people."

If there is even a chance that humans are damaging the environment, a thinking person would consider the potential effect on his or her children and grandchildren. But the exact opposite has happened. Half of all carbon emissions have been dumped into the air in approximately the last 25 years. Even the Pentagon, much trusted by right-wingers, has warned that "the danger from climate change is real, urgent, and severe."

2. Make Up Your Own Facts

This is the opposite of ignoring facts, for in this case conservatives are inventing new ones. A prime example is the stubborn belief in supply-side, trickle-down economics, and in the supposed power of the free market, as summarized by Milton Friedman when he said, "The free market system distributes the fruits of economic progress among all people."

The "Laffer Curve," named after economist Arthur Laffer, hypothesizes that tax rate increases will eventually reach a point of diminishing returns for tax revenue. Conservatives have contorted this economic theory into the 'fact' that all tax reductions are beneficial.

But there are numerous reputable economists, research groups, and tax analysts who have concluded that the maximum U.S. tax rate can and should be about twice its current level.

Adherence to supply-side beliefs may help to justify 35 years of trickle-down persistence in the minds of the people getting rich. As conservative analyst Michael Barone once said, "Markets work. But sometimes they take time." 100 years, perhaps?

3. Display No Empathy for Others

Conservatives tend to blame poor people for their own misfortunes. Like when John Boehner voiced his perception of people without jobs: "This idea that has been born...I really don't have to work; I don't really want to do this. I think I'd rather just sit around."

Almost all healthy adult Americans, of course, want to work. But in 2011 Senate Republicans killed a proposed $447 billion jobs bill that would have added about two million jobs to the economy. Members of Congress filibustered Nancy Pelosi's "Prevention of Outsourcing Act," even as two million jobs were being outsourced, and they temporarily blocked the "Small Business Jobs Act." In April, 2013 only one member of Congress bothered to show up for a hearing on unemployment.

When asked what he would do to bring jobs to Kentucky, Mitch McConnell responded, "That is not my job. It is the primary responsibility of the state Commerce Cabinet."

It gets worse beyond our own borders, where American neoconservatism leads to behavior that is shockingly devoid of empathy. A 13-year-old Yemeni boy told The Guardian about the drones buzzing incessantly overhead: "I see them every day and we are scared of them...day and night...we even dream of them in our sleep."

That boy was killed by a drone in early 2015.

4. Shout Down Your Opponents

If nothing else works, belligerence will. Many of the top right-wingers use this strategy. John McCain told Code Pink protestors to "Get out of here, you low-life scum." Michael Moore has reportedly received death threats from both Glenn Beck and Clint Eastwood. Bill O'Reilly bashed Mother Jones chief David Corn as a "liar" and an "irresponsible guttersnipe," and then assailed New York Times' Emily Steel in an interview about the Falklands controversy: "I am coming after you with everything I have. You can take it as a threat."

The bully tactics are especially frightening at the global level. "All of Russia," notes Paul Craig Roberts, "is distressed that Washington has destroyed the trust that had been created during the Reagan-Gorbachev era." And as noted by The Nation, "There’s the perception across the Global South that, while the United States remains embroiled in its endless wars, the world is defecting to the East." Toward China, that is, as their New Silk Road opens doors of cooperation from the far east all the way to Europe.


Our conservative-controlled nation's self-serving belief in "exceptionalism" is taking us further and further from the rest of the world. And closer to a world of trouble for our children.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 9, 2015 - 09:57am PT
Senator Graham has never sent an email?

If that's true, it's preposterous. Running the federal government it seems, in this age, would require at the very least a passing understanding of the inter web.

It seems like a sidestep of a non-issue. His underlings took dictation and hit the send button most likely.

And really, why would one want to seem curmudgeonly in an era of rapidly evolving technology?

Does he not believe in technological evolution?

Freaking hypocritical luddites.

Oh yeah, BENGHAZI!!!!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 10, 2015 - 05:23am PT
the liberal definition of "progress"? test tube incest:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985590/I-don-t-care-people-think-baby-s-loved-m-happy-matters-extraordinary-story-divided-Britain-single-gay-man-mother-gave-birth-surrogate-baby.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 10, 2015 - 05:53am PT
bookworm, you should work on your comprehension skills. It's not incest, since the egg came from a woman other than his mother.

But, this is an issue every time I click one of your links. You seem to just quickly scan the lead paragraph and then form an opinion about the story, even though the story almost always contradicts your version.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 06:36am PT
Indeed.

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2015 - 06:37am PT
I blame our Mullah in Chief for hathing wroughting test tube incest.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 10, 2015 - 08:21am PT
Now 47 republican senators have received a lecture calling them on their stupidity by none other than the foreign minister of Iran. Too funny.

http://www.vox.com/2015/3/9/8180933/zarif-cotton-letter

"Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif dismissed the letter as a "propaganda ploy" on Monday. "I wish to enlighten the authors that if the next administration revokes any agreement 'with the stroke of a pen' ... it will have simply committed a blatant violation of international law," he said in a statement."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 10, 2015 - 08:24am PT
Oh, the Republicans and the fools that support them.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 10, 2015 - 08:43am PT
Is it sedition?
Treason?
Traitors working against the State?


Logan Act

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Signed into law by President John Adams on January 30, 1799


The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 30 January 1799, currently codified at 18 U.S.C. § 953) is a United States federal law that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments. It was passed in 1799 and last amended in 1994. Violation of the Logan Act is a felony, punishable under federal law with imprisonment of up to three years.

The Act was intended to prohibit unauthorized United States citizens from interfering in relations between the United States and foreign governments.[1]
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 10, 2015 - 08:51am PT
The Logan Act is probably unconstitutional.

While what the republicans did was very unamerican it was also weak and ineffective. No intelligent Government would or has taken it seriously.

In real negotiations authority is a fundamental basis. The senate does not have it and are therefore irrelevant to the negotiations.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 10, 2015 - 08:55am PT
What's good for the goose...

25 Violations of Law By President Obama and His Administration

Obama Administration uses IRS to target conservative, Christian and pro-Israel organizations, donors, and citizens.

In an unprecedented attack on the First Amendment, the Obama Justice Department ordered criminal investigations of FOX News reporters for doing their jobs during the 2012 election year.

President Obama, throughout his Presidency, has refused to enforce long-established U.S. immigration laws. For example . . .

More than 300,000 captured illegal aliens had been processed and were awaiting deportation. But, incredibly, Obama stopped these deportations and ordered the U.S. border patrol to release many of these illegal aliens in violation of law and without explanation.

Congress rejected Obama's so called DREAM ACT – which would have granted permanent residency to many illegal aliens. So Obama enacted his own version of the DREAM ACT by Executive Order, thus directly defying Congress. According to Obama's Executive Order, illegal aliens can stay in America if they are under the age of 30, have been in America for at least five years, are enrolled in school or have graduated from high school, and have committed no felonies.

Obama has refused to build a double-barrier security fence along the U.S.-Mexican border in direct violation of the 2006 Secure Fence Act. This law requires that "at least two layers of reinforced fencing" be built along America's 650-mile border with Mexico. So far, just 40 miles of this fence have been built – most of it during the Bush Administration.

Obama's unconstitutional assault on your Second Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
President Obama issued, in one day, 21 separate Executive Orders that attack and undermine your Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.
Especially egregious is President Obama's Executive Orders amending the ObamaCare law to allow doctors and hospitals to investigate which patients own a gun. This outrageous Executive Order could allow the federal government to track and monitor law-abiding gun owners simply because they sought medical care.

Obama's assault on Christians and religious freedom.

Obama's Health and Human Services Department has, on its own (without Congressional approval), issued a mandate that all health insurance plans must include coverage for abortion-inducing drugs. As a result, pro-life employers and taxpayers are now effectively required by law to pay for abortions.

This mandate is an unconstitutional attack on the protections for freedom of religion and freedom of conscience in the First Amendment and the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act. This mandate also directly violates the ObamaCare law enacted by Congress, which prohibits any and all taxpayer funds from being used to pay for abortions.

Obama forced ObamaCare on an unwilling public through bribery and lying about its cost.

Obama managed to secure passage of ObamaCare by one vote in the Senate by bribing senators. He bribed Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska with the notorious "Cornhusker Kickback." He bribed Senator Mary Landrieu with the infamous $300 million "Louisiana Purchase."

In addition, Obama knowingly and blatantly lied to America and to Congress about how much ObamaCare would really cost. The cost of ObamaCare to the American people over the next 10 years will not be less than $1 TRILLION, as Obama promised in his nationally televised speech to the nation. Instead, the real cost of ObamaCare to the Federal Treasury is $2.4 TRILLION, according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.

But the true cost of ObamaCare is more like $10 TRILLION when you factor in the cost to the states, the cost to individual Americans who are now required to purchase Obama-approved health plans (the "Individual Mandate"), the cost of exploding health insurance premiums, the $716 billion ObamaCare steals from Medicare, and the increased cost to businesses of complying with ObamaCare mandates.

Operation Fast & Furious.
"Operation Fast & Furious" was the Obama Administration's gun-running scheme that put thousands of American-made semi-automatic weapons in the hands of Mexican drug cartels and resulted in the death of at least one U.S. Border Patrol Agent, Brian Terry. Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder lied to Congress and the public, claiming he didn't know about his Justice Department's Fast & Furious operation.

Congress has now held Holder in contempt for defying congressional subpoenas and refusing to turn over thousands of Justice Department documents on Fast & Furious. President Obama asserted Executive Privilege to try to protect Holder. But for Executive Privilege to apply, Obama would have had to have known about Fast & Furious, making the President as culpable as Holder.

Investigators suspect that Fast & Furious was an effort by the Obama Administration to discredit lawful gun ownership in America by purposefully creating gun crimes, thus inducing public outcry for gun control. When it put thousands of semi-automatic weapons in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, the Obama Justice Department knew these guns would be used to commit crimes, perhaps even kill some Americans. Then Obama could say: "See how dangerous these guns are. We must ban them."
"Federal Communications Commission (FCC): Regulated the Internet despite a court order from the Circuit Court of Appeals for Washington, D.C. stating that the FCC does not have the power to regulate the Internet." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)
"Environmental Protection Agency (EPA): Imposed Cross-State Air Pollution Rules on the state of Texas at the last minute and without an opportunity for Texas to respond to the proposed regulation. EPA overreach was based on a dubious claim that air pollution from Texas affected a single air-quality monitor in Granite City, Illinois more than 500 miles and three states away from Texas." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)

"Department of Justice (DOJ): Rejected state voter ID statutes that are similar to those already approved by the Supreme Court of the United States. DOJ ignored section 8 of the Voting Rights Act which calls for protections against voter fraud, and used section 5 to administratively block measures to protect the integrity of elections passed by state legislatures." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)
"DOJ: In violation of 10th Amendment, sued to prevent Arizona from using reasonable measures to discourage illegal immigration within its borders. Arizona has a large number of illegal immigrants, compared to other states, and needs to be able to act to reduce the number." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)

"DOJ: Went to court to stop enforcement of Alabama's immigration reform laws, which require collection of the immigration status of public school students, require businesses to use E-Verify, and prohibit illegal immigrants from receiving public benefits." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)

"White House: Made "recess appointments" to the National Labor Relations Board and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau when Congress was NOT in recess. The Obama Administration has ignored the ruling by the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals that the appointments are unconstitutional." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)

"Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC): Interfered with a Michigan church's selection of its own ministers by trying to force the church to reinstate a minister who was discharged for her disagreement with the religious doctrine of the church." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)

"Department of Energy (DOE): In 2009, the Obama Administration arbitrarily broke federal law, violated various contracts, and derailed the most studied energy project in American history at Yucca Mountain by denying it a license, thus costing the American people more than $31 billion." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)

Department of the Interior (DOI): Forced Glendale, a family-oriented town in Arizona, to become another Las Vegas against its will by granting "reservation status" to a 54-acre plot in the town, where the Tohono O'odham Indian Nation plans to build a resort and casino." (SOURCE: Report from Nine State Attorneys General)

Without Congressional approval, Obama gutted the work requirement for welfare recipients passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton.

In the bailout of General Motors and Chrysler, Obama illegally shortchanged bond holders in favor of Labor Unions, despite U.S. bankruptcy laws that specify that bond holders be first in line to be paid back.

Eager to use the killing of Osama bin Laden for political gain, Obama exposed the identity and method of operation of the Navy SEALs team that conducted the operation in Pakistan, thus exposing its members to a lifetime of risk because they have been targeted for assassination by Islamists. A short time after Obama exposed the Navy SEALs' method of operation, 22 SEALs were shot down and killed in Afghanistan. It is a violation of law for the President or any American to reveal classified military secrets.

President Obama established an extra-constitutional top secret "kill list" of people (including Americans) who can be summarily killed on sight – presumably by drones -- without due process. Once on Obama's kill list, an American citizen can be targeted and executed on the opinion of a single government bureaucrat. That's not how our legal system is supposed to work.

Obama Administration officials twisted the arms of defense contractors to not issue layoff notices in October of 2012 so as to avoid causing bad news for Obama right before the election — even though federal law (the "WARN Act") requires such notices. ; Not only is this a violation of the WARN Act, it's also an unlawful use of federal officials for campaign purposes.

President Obama intervened militarily in Libya in 2011 without the Congressional approval required by the War Powers Act.
Obama knowingly lied to Congress and the American people about the killing of U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans in Benghazi, Libya. The President and his representatives repeatedly said an anti-Islamic video sparked a spontaneous uprising in Libya that resulted in the killings even though Obama knew that the attack was a well-planned military-style assault by al Qaeda on the anniversary of September 11.

Michelle Obama's family trip to Africa in June of 2011, including a private safari at a South African game reserve, cost American taxpayers $424,000 for air travel alone. Mrs. Obama brought along both her makeup artist and hairstylist, as well as her mother, a niece and nephew, and her daughters, who were listed as "senior staff members."

https://www.committeeforjustice.org/content/25-violations-law-president-obama-and-his-administration

Not necessarily my views. Just food for thought. ;-)
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 10, 2015 - 08:57am PT
47 GOP Senators and Members of Congress Violated the Logan Act

Why is no one calling them out?

By Lestatdelc / Daily Kos

March 10, 2015


The letter by 47 Senators and members of Congress trying to undermine negotiations between Iran, the United States and the 5 + 1 group is a pretty clear violation of the Logan Act:
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 10, 2015 - 09:00am PT
My understanding is no one has ever been prosecuted under the Logan act.. Why? Because the act is probably unconstitutional.

It is not so easy to undermine negotiations like these. Certainly not with an irrelevant letter.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2015 - 10:22am PT
Courts also dislike getting involved in disputed between branches.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:00am PT

Do you retard [sic] ever studied the international law before you made it to congress or following orders from Nethezayoo ?

You mean "might makes right?" If I recall correctly, one Nancy Pelosi purported to deal with the Assad regime in Syria in 2007.

Still, the best comment on the letter was an editorial in the Wall Street Journal this morning. In essence, the senators are stupid because they don't need to try to influence Iran; they can't. They need to try to convince the American people.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:23am PT
I guess if you stand to Make Big Money off War Profiteering, it makes sense that you should intervene and scuttle The President's Agreement with Iran


Immediately After Launching Effort to Scuttle Iran Deal, Senator Tom Cotton to Meet with Defense Contractors

By Lee Fang
@lhfang
Yesterday at 3:18 PM

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/09/upon-launching-effort-scuttle-iran-deal-senator-tom-cotton-meets-defense-contractors/


In an open letter organized by freshman Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., 47 Senate Republicans today warned the leaders of Iran that any nuclear deal reached with President Barack Obama could expire as soon as he leaves office.

Tomorrow, 24 hours later, Cotton will appear at an “Off the Record and strictly Non-Attribution” event with the National Defense Industrial Association, a lobbying and professional group for defense contractors.

The NDIA is composed of executives from major military businesses such as Northrop Grumman, L-3 Communications, ManTech International, Boeing, Oshkosh Defense and Booz Allen Hamilton, among other firms.

Cotton strongly advocates higher defense spending and a more aggressive foreign policy. As The New Republic’s David Ramsey noted, “Pick a topic — Syria, Iran, Russia, ISIS, drones, NSA snooping — and Cotton can be found at the hawkish outer edge of the debate…During his senate campaign, he told a tele-townhall that ISIS and Mexican drug cartels joining forces to attack Arkansas was an ‘urgent problem.'”

On Iran, Cotton has issued specific calls for military intervention. In December he said Congress should consider supplying Israel with B-52s and so-called “bunker-buster” bombs — both items manufactured by NDIA member Boeing — to be used for a possible strike against Iran.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:29am PT
Nice cut and paste Sketch, you even provide a source for 9 out of 29 allegations; The Nine States Attorneys General.

The state attorneys general who put the report together were Tom Horne of Arizona; Pam Bondi of Florida; Sam Olens of Georgia; Bill Schuette of Michigan; Scott Pruitt of Oklahoma; Marty Jackley of South Dakota; Alan Wilson of South Carolina; Greg Abbott of Texas; and Ken Cuccinelli, Virginia.

The report acknowledged political differences between the Republican attorneys general and President Barack Obama, a Democrat.

But you forgot to include the birth certificate, the secret muslim, BENGAZI!!666, and the fact that the report was written 3 years ago. and posted on wingnut websites like cnsbc.news -THE RIGHT NEWS. RIGHT NOW! http://cnsnews.com/news/article/nine-state-ags-cite-21-illegal-actions-obama-administration .the comments are awesome by the way. You troll over there as well?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 10, 2015 - 11:40am PT
no, congress is independently owned by the Corps
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 10, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
Non event. No one takes anyhing the Republican congress does seriously. They lost all credibility a long time ago.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 10, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
Keep stuffing things up the republicans ass Obama.. it's not like it can hurt a non existant bipartisanship or for that matter the legitimate business of governing.

republicans have screwed themselves..they are not legitimate partners in governing so .. now you just have to govern without em or their input. Let the supreme court sort it out after the fact.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 10, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
So, will we see another circus of GOP Presidential candidates? Who will be the first "front runner" to get batted out of the park?

And, if Hillary does, for some reason, not run, who will be the Democratic nominee?

Grab the beer-battered popcorn! This will be good.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 10, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
There is no chance she will not run.
Biden is the runner-up.
A Republican circus? Of course.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2015 - 03:44pm PT

Mar 10, 2015 - 08:57am PT
47 GOP Senators and Members of Congress Violated the Logan Act

Why is no one calling them out?

By Lestatdelc / Daily Kos

March 10, 2015


The letter by 47 Senators and members of Congress trying to undermine negotiations between Iran, the United States and the 5 + 1 group is a pretty clear violation of the Logan Act:

So this is their big opportunity to govern, but wtf has this congress accomplished in two months, besides undermine the president?
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Mar 10, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
http://national.suntimes.com/national-politics/7/72/769233/petition-charge-iran-letter-senators-treason/

White House petition wants senators charged with treason for Iran letter
Posted: 03/10/2015, 09:21am | Chad Merda

The backlash over the letter 47 GOP senators sent to Iran’s leaders warning any nuclear deal wouldn’t be valid without congressional approval has now given rise to a White House petition.

The petition urges for charges to be filed “against the 47 U.S. senators in violation of The Logan Act in attempting to undermine a nuclear agreement.”

The Logan Act, which was enacted in 1799, states “any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.”

The authors of the petition make their case by saying “at a time when the United States government is attempting to reach a potential nuclear agreement with the Iranian government, 47 Senators saw fit to instead issue a condescending letter to the Iranian government stating that any agreement brokered by our President would not be upheld once the president leaves office.

“This is a clear violation of federal law. In attempting to undermine our own nation, these 47 senators have committed treason,” the petition states.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
No, silly, Benghazi.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Mar 10, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
Is it just me? Or is tareeeeeeeezon not mentioned in the Logan Act?

If found guilty, the 47 shall mow the WH lawn for up to 3 years.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 10, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
where do these people spawn? I submit these idiots are conclusive proof that evolution is wrong or reached its terminus.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 10, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
Shameful:

GOP Sneaks Anti-Abortion Language Into Bipartisan Human Trafficking Bill

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 10, 2015 - 09:46pm PT
Pretty funny how all of the Democrats were silent when Pelosi purported to negotiate directly with the Assad regime in 2007. While I understand why the 47 Senators insist that the Senate must ratify any treaty, since they're dealing with the first Post-Constitutional administration, their action was stupid, because it allows the Democrats to deflect attention from their vacuous foreign policy.

The Tea Party -- the gift that keeps on giving -- to the Democrats.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 10, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
Most say it's not a treaty, so the Senate does not have to ratify it as a treaty.




Repubs have one answer when they get caught breaking the law

"Look, the Dems did it too, just look hard enough, we will find something to divert attention from our misdeeds"

Have they ever been accountable???
No

It's just one bad thing after another
And the apologists just stick to the same old playbook, time after time.


Here's a new definition of a Republican voter taken from Thom Hartmann

There are only 2 types of Republican voters
Millionaires and suckers
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 10, 2015 - 10:04pm PT
Democrats, meanwhile, pointed to the Cuban Missile Crisis, warning that it would have been unfathomable for Republicans to try to undercut President John F. Kennedy’s negotiations with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. “I cannot imagine the Congress writing a letter . . . in the midst of those discussions and saying: ‘Don’t worry about this guy Kennedy. He doesn’t speak for the country,’ ” said Sen. Angus King (I-Maine). “And yet that’s essentially what happened.”

“It is never a good idea for elected leaders to give foreigners, and especially foreign enemies, a formal invitation to join our domestic arguments,” said Phil Zelikow, who was a senior adviser to former secretary of state Condoleezza Rice. “It is not the conduct one would ordinarily expect from leaders of a great power.”

Many in the GOP foreign policy establishment, meanwhile, expressed disappointment over the increasingly partisan nature of U.S. foreign policy. Former senator Richard G. Lugar (R-Ind.), who previously served as chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, described Cotton’s letter as “an unfortunate venture” and said he would have advised the freshman senator and Army veteran not to send it.

“Either these senators were trying to be helpful to the Iranians or harmful to the commander in chief in the midst of high-stakes international diplomacy,” she said. “Either answer does discredit to the letter’s signatories.”

Degaine

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 01:57am PT
JEleazarian wrote:
Senate must ratify any treaty, since they're dealing with the first Post-Constitutional administration

Bold by me.

Did you write that last bolded part tongue-in-cheek? Hard to tell with the two-dimensional Internet.

When it comes to foreign policy, and most domestic policy as well, I see little difference between the Bush and Obama administrations other than perhaps a little window dressing(Obama is center-right at his most left).

You never had any problems with Bush trampling all over the US Constitution, why the sudden change of heart?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 07:01am PT
From the Clash Daily Alerts



The THING in your brain!!!! I spewed my coffee when I read this email. I was half expecting the video to say it is triggered by liberal thoughts. BUT, I couldn't sit thru any of it lol! I swear, the people who foment this stuff seem to be only in it for the money. Everything is, "have to buy it now because the government is going to take it down as soon as they discover it!" It's a pressure sales pitch pure and simple.





Jorroh

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 08:06am PT
JEleazarian....."Look Ma they're doing it too"

Do you really think those two situations are equivalent?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 11, 2015 - 08:30am PT
McCain has a long record of violating the Logan Act.

http://blogs.britannica.com/2008/08/john-mccain-as-agent-provocateur-in-the-georgiarussia-crisis/


If this information is correct, then, by inference, John McCain emerges as the most likely suspect as agent provocateur. First, McCain had a unique and privileged pipeline to President Saakashvili (shown to the right in the photo to the right). McCain’s top foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, was a partner in a two-man firm that served as a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government. Scheunemann continued receiving compensation from the firm until the McCain campaign imposed new restrictions on lobbyists in mid-May. Scheunemann reportedly helped arrange a telephone conversation between McCain and Saakashvili on April 17 of this year, while he was still being paid by Georgia.

Second, while most Senators would hesitate to conduct their own private foreign policy, McCain follows his own muse and defers to no one, including the President of the United States.

Third, McCain has benefited politically from the crisis in Georgia. As with the Eisenhower administration’s rhetoric of liberation, McCain’s swift and belligerent response to the Soviet actions in Georgia has bolstered his shaky standing with the right-wing of the Republican Party. McCain has also used the Georgian situation to assert his credentials as the hardened warrior ready to do battle against a resurgent Russia. He has pointedly contrasted his foreign policy experience with that of his Democratic opponent Barack Obama. Since the crisis erupted, McCain has focused like a laser on Georgia, to great effect. According to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released on August 19 he has gained four points on Obama since their last poll in mid-July and leads his rival by a two to one margin as the candidate best qualified to deal with Russia.

Although McCain does not speak officially for the Bush administration, Saakashvili would likely take very seriously any communication from the presumptive Republican Party nominee for president. As with the CIA in the Hungarian crisis of 1956, McCain may well have given the Georgian president greater assurances of American backing for his actions than the US government could provide.



and then we have this photo of McCain posing with ISIS Freedom Fighters
He wanted to supply them with arms.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 11, 2015 - 08:31am PT
The supreme court has made it clear that binding agreements with other nations can be made by the executive branch without rising to the level of a "treaty" requiring the advise and consent of the senate. This is done regularly by every administration. Not doing so would be ridiculous and completely unworkable.

At what point something becomes requiring of a treaty I do not know.

Any president that would have to deal with a congress that makes the "do nothing" congress look like loyal heavy laborers basically has no choice but to push forward as much as possible by executive action.

If necessary you let the supreme court decide if you went to far.

Only an idiot for a president would attempt to work with this congress. Obama was an idiot for a while. But he seems to be learning.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 11, 2015 - 08:40am PT
I guess JE's Post Constitutional America started with Nixon


Yes, Nixon Scuttled LBJ's Vietnam Peace Talks

It’s been rumored for years. Now we have real proof.

By JOHN ALOYSIUS FARRELL
June 09, 2014

Did Richard Nixon’s campaign conspire to scuttle the Vietnam War peace talks on the eve of the 1968 election to capture him the presidency?

Absolutely, says Tom Charles Huston, the author of a comprehensive, still-secret report he prepared as a White House aide to Nixon. In one of 10 oral histories conducted by the National Archives and opened last week, Huston says “there is no question” that Nixon campaign aides sent a message to the South Vietnamese government, promising better terms if it obstructed the talks, and helped Nixon get elected.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/yes-nixon-scuttled-the-vietnam-peace-talks-107623.html#ixzz3U5kfT54K

This has just came out with the LBJ tapes being made available..
LBJ didn't make a stink about it at the time because they were illegally wire tapping Nixon. But he called it Treason, and could not believe Presidential candidate would commit such a crime.



And then the Great Conservative Reagan

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-real-iranian-hostage-crisis-a-cia-covert-op/5324385

“October Surprise” the Ronald Reagan-George Bush team paid the Iranians not to release 52 American hostages until after the November 1980 Presidential elections.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 11, 2015 - 09:07am PT
Logan Act?

Are you sure it doesn't involve the lovely Jessica?


10b4me

Social climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:05am PT
That the only way for Iran to have a lasting agreement is via treaty?

I believe that is correct, Dingus. However, treaties are broken all the time. Just ask the American Indians.
WBraun

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:47am PT
Democrat Senator Bob Menendez criminal extraordinaire.

The criminals in DC are everywhere.

Instead this stoopid thread only one sided bullsh!t.

Nuke this pile of sh!t thread!

You politarded loons need help that nobody can provide ......
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 11:04am PT
I believe that is correct, Dingus. However, treaties are broken all the time. Just ask the American Indians.

I believe it was "the Founder of the Modern Democrats, Andrew Jackson," who said, regarding a Supreme Court decision in favor of a native American tribe against the Jackson Administration, "The Supreme Court has made its decision. Now let them enforce it."

Then again, Iran is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, so what, exactly, are we getting from Obama's initiatives?

As I said earlier, the 47 Senators sending their letter is stupid on their part, because it allows the anti-Republican partisans in the press to make the letter, rather than the Obama foreign "policy," the issue.

John

P.S. Werner, there are, indeed, too many in Washington - and in the world generally - who apply rules to themselves that differ from the rules they apply to others. I'm therefore sure it's a mere coincidence that the Holder Justice Department announced their targeting of Menendez just after Menendez denounced Obama policy publicly.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
It probably would be, Dave, if the current administration wasn't showing the same contempt for the rulings of the judicial branch.

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
In case you had any doubt, rest assured, Senator Cotton is a Bona fide nut.


In 2013, he introduced an amendment to legislation that would impose penalties on family members of persons who violated sanctions against Iran. Morality aside, it is also prohibited under Article III of the Constitution.

Of course, he is now the new love object for the Tea Party.


m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3322251
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 11, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Contrary to what cotton wrote in his little US civics lesson the senate does not ratify treaties. What an embarrassing shitshow congress has become.
Degaine

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
JEleazarian,

Are you really as blindly partisan as your last few posts appear to indicate?

Again, the Bush administration had complete disregard for the judiciary and for treaties for that matter, yet we never read any criticism coming from your keyboard.

JEleazarian wrote:
As I said earlier, the 47 Senators sending their letter is stupid on their part, because it allows the anti-Republican partisans in the press to make the letter, rather than the Obama foreign "policy," the issue.

Why the "policy" in quotes?

Honest question, can you not see beyond Obama's Democratic party label? His foreign policy picked right up in January 2009 where Bush's left off. It's almost a perfect linear continuation of it. The drone strikes (and associated strategy), assassinations, Gitmo, etc.

Given that you had no problems with Bush's foreign policy, what is it exactly that bothers you about Obama's?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
Honest question, can you not see beyond Obama's Democratic party label? His foreign policy picked right up in January 2009 where Bush's left off. It's almost a perfect linear continuation of it. The drone strikes (and associated strategy), assassinations, Gitmo, etc.

What, exactly, is the Obama administration's foreign policy, Degaine? Yes, Obama hasn't shut down Gitmo yet, although he keeps saying he wants to (unlike Bush). And if you'd read my posts, you know that I strongly supported Obama's reluctance to intervene in Syria after Assad "crossed the line."

Beyond that, I cannot discern a coherent foreign policy from this administration. About the only thing the Obama and Bush administrations share for sure is inadequate intelligence in the middle east.

John
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Mar 11, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
Getting out of the invasive wars was a good start, but as mentioned before regarding Gitmo.. Why lie? Why appease? Oh, and the drone program, that there is Nobel PP worthy eh?!
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Mar 11, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
Someone clue D'Kos in that the war is still on in over there.
Our guys are still putting lead into the terrorists.
Advisory positions are listed on paper for the gullible bleeding hearts.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 03:41pm PT
Lindsay Graham's defense policy would apparently center around using the military to overthrow Congress: http://benswann.com/graham-military-force-congress/


While visiting the Concord City Republican Committee on March 7th at the “Politics and Pies” forum, the 59-year-old Senator asserted that American ground troops would be necessary to defeat ISIS. In addition, he advocated for the reversal of defense spending cuts and, as President of the United States, Graham would restrict the movement of lawmakers until those cuts are reversed.

In a chilling statement, Graham said he would not allow Congress to leave D.C. until his demands are met, declaring he would use United States military force to keep them there.

“…and here is the first thing I would do if I were President of the United States, I wouldn’t let Congress leave town until we fix this. I would literally use the military to keep them in if I had to.”

In response to questions about the incident where he was speaking to citizens of New Hampshire, Graham's office responded:

“Due to the large volume of mail I receive, I regret that I am only able to respond personally to inquiries from South Carolinians.”

Republican primaries are the best reality show ever. This is going to be an awesome year. Maybe not 2012 awesome, but awesome.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
And Graham is one of the more moderate ones.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 11, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
Getting us out of two pointless wars and not starting another one is a helluva good foreign policy in my book.

And has given us Islamic State. What, exactly, would an ally of the U. S., say Ukraine, for instance, expect from this administration? Does this administration have a policy, other than speak loudly and carry a small stick?

John
WBraun

climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
Obama administration started more and expanded wars all over you stupid brainwashed politarded do nothing forum loons.

This stoopid brainwashed thread should be nuked ....

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 11, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 11, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 11, 2015 - 06:11pm PT
This stoopid brainwashed thread should be nuked ....

The mostest truest thing ever uttered on this forum.

crankster

Trad climber
Mar 11, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
bvb, your posts usually don't interest me, but this one is really funny.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 11, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
You can admit it pal, they fascinate you to no end. You're no different then the rest. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 11, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
And has given us Islamic State

John, Bush gave us the Islamic state when he ousted Hussein. Even a dummy like me saw that coming. Eliminating Saddam handed Iraq over to the Shias, and thus Iran.

Think about it, he knocked out one of the few secular states in the middle-east. The other two being Syria and Libya. Funny, eh?

If you like, I could try to find my rec.climbing post about it. Lord Slime called me an idiot for that, IIRC.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 11, 2015 - 09:19pm PT
"Beyond that, I cannot discern a coherent foreign policy from this administration. About the only thing the Obama and Bush administrations share for sure is inadequate intelligence in the middle east."


Did you say the same thing about CheneyBushco ®, John? Funny...I don't seem to recall such commentary...and Obama's foreign policy is about as indiscernible from Bush II's as possible.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 11, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
Beyond that, I cannot discern a coherent foreign policy from this administration.

I imagine that conducting a comprehensive evaluation of each situation on it's own merits is an incoherent policy to you, but to me, I think that is probably a pretty good way to go.

Kill terrorists. Not the Republican position, who still seem to mourn the death of OBL.

Disengage us from war. Check.

Don't engage us in new wars in any comprehensive way. Check.

Try to help the good guys, try to impede the bad guys. Buy off people when it's in our interest.

Normalize relations with Cuba, expand our influence.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 12, 2015 - 04:31am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

self-perpetuating victimhood and the end of humor

http://everythingsaproblem.tumblr.com/


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 12, 2015 - 04:47am PT
"we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/11/democrats-threaten-to-block-their-own-bill-after-finding-abortion-language/?intcmp=latestnews


libs love laws so much they don't even pay attention to what their laws actually do...and it's only 68 pages
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:03am PT
John queried
What, exactly, is the Obama administration's foreign policy, Degaine?

If you don't really have foreign policy wonk credentials I don't think this is criticism one can levy without it simply being a oft used talking point. Foreign policy is always complicated and Obama, unlike Bush, lacks a unifying vision (Bush's appeared to be SUBMIT!) because he appears to recognize that "doing something" is not actually a sound policy and the political terrain of the MIddle East has changed more during the Obama presidency than even the Bush one. The only way ISIS doesn't come to be in more or less it's current state is if Obama leaves lots of American troops in Iraq (which Iraq, under the US backed leadership of extreme factionist and borderline dictator al-Maliki, did not want) or if Obama committed sizable ground troops to Syria. In both those cases we are committed to more open ended, extremely hostile wars against Muslim nations which literally nobody wanted. On top of that, committing ground troops would do nothing but empower the very ideologic hardliners who have become powerful and experienced enough to be able to establish a caliphate to begin with.

Despite the Fox News rhetoric, there was no easy way to prevent the current situation short of not invading Iraq to begin with. Had our government (Obama included) taken ISIS more seriously earlier on, we might have been able to blunt their advance but even rallying support to begin the bombing campaign that we are currently waging required extremely dire circumstances to motivate international forces.

Let's say that the US had given weapons to the Syrian rebels, many of whom are only US allies so long as the current Syrian regime stands. And then lets pretend that those arms would have actually tipped the balance towards the rebels and Assad fell. Would that have stopped the creation of ISIS, or would that have handed the entire country of Syria over to it, along with a good portion of Iraq?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:38am PT
The ME is a complex issue...Many scenarios could play out...The Grand Ayatollah Van Belle will tip the teetering power vacumn into a downhill spiral of mass bedlam....Allah Ak Van Belle..!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:48am PT
In other cohesive foreign policy news, McCain continues to try to downplay the significance of him signing the Tom Cotton letter to Iran:

http://www.vox.com/2015/3/11/8190671/mccain-iran-letter

"I saw the letter, I saw that it looked reasonable to me and I signed it, that’s all. I sign lots of letters."

I sign lots of letters, guys. It's just a letter, ok? Can we start talking about Hillary's emails again?


McCain also indicated after getting pressed by Van Susteren that it was probably a bad idea (before going on to dismiss the 2/3 of Americans that didn't vote in 2014 as unimportant): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGwC3q-7h4U&t=108

Rubio, pulling the classic Republican "I will double down on anything stupid I do or say lest I look weak or maybe thoughtful" maneuver and offered to sign another letter: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/marco-rubio-would-absolutely-send-another-letter-iran-n320796
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:05am PT
HighDesertDJ,
Really good comments. As RJ says, the ME is really complicated.
What I read into John E's comments are things like meaningless red lines that undermine US credibility and an administration that seems to diss our allies while bowing and pandering to historic enemies.
In addition, there is no doubt that totally pulling out of Iraq left a power vacuum, regardless of whose "fault" that was.

How to proceed? Generations of statesmen have been asking that. I am only an average intellect blabbing on a climbing forum without any answers.
A few things I believe to be true:
This country no longer has the will or the political capital to commit ground troops.
Letting Allah sort it out while watching the horrors from the comfort of our living rooms has not been a typical American reaction.
The rest of the first world needs more resolve and skin in the game.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:24am PT
Larry posted
Letting Allah sort it out while watching the horrors from the comfort of our living rooms has not been a typical American reaction.
The rest of the first world needs more resolve and skin in the game.

But is not necessarily the wrong reaction either. We are often presented with a scenario where "if we do not intervene this terrible thing will happen" but fail to acknowledge that if we DO intervene this other terrible thing will happen. Our military power is incredible, but military power has yet to solve any of our problems related to terrorism or religious extremism, probably because we don't have an idea bomb.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:46am PT
HighDesertDJ wrote;
But is not necessarily the wrong reaction either.

My wife and I had an old friend who was the pilot on the 2nd plane to hit the World Trade Center on 9/11 (I was climbing on the Matthes Crest the day it happened and didn't know for 2 days or more). I wanted revenge in a big way and supported the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq...just like the vast majority of Democrats in Congress. Over time we all grew weary of watching Americans, who would have died in previous wars, coming back broken beyond belief.

I do believe that in foreign ventures or wars, that politics should stop at the waters edge. Because of that I felt public opposition from public officials emboldened an enemy in a time of war. The troops on the ground were pawns of both sides of the debate. The voting booth is where these things should be decided.

I have been pondering these ME issues for a long time and the point you make is really good and one I vacillate on often.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:10am PT

Mar 11, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
Beyond that, I cannot discern a coherent foreign policy from this administration.

I imagine that conducting a comprehensive evaluation of each situation on it's own merits is an incoherent policy to you, but to me, I think that is probably a pretty good way to go.

Kill terrorists. Not the Republican position, who still seem to mourn the death of OBL.

Disengage us from war. Check.

Don't engage us in new wars in any comprehensive way. Check.

Try to help the good guys, try to impede the bad guys. Buy off people when it's in our interest.

Normalize relations with Cuba, expand our influence.

Ken, this is outstanding.
And HDDJ's analysis is spot on. Nice work, fellas.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2015 - 07:37am PT
This situation is not a good thing. When the military is revered and the politicians reviled, war cannot be too far over the horizon.


Great insight!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:55am PT
Americans like action. We like to see problems solved quickly and effectively. It is not surprising that we respect our military. The military has a simple job. Take orders and accomplish the mission. They are given vast resources and manpower in order to do their job and they are not a committee. They have not always won but then again they have sometimes been asked to do the impossible.

I worry a little bit about our nation for a different reason.

Democracies can fall if they fail to do their job. I don't see America as magically immune to this possibility. If we fail to pay our debts for example I suspect some pretty terrible consequences could occur. There are some incredibly stupid people running (not running) things in congress right now.

That is what is not good.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:00am PT
This country no longer has the will or the political capital to commit ground troops.

...needlessly.

That's a good thing.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:37am PT
hopenchange?

a nuclearized middle east:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-nuclear-deal-raises-stakes-for-iran-talks-1426117583


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:44am PT
trollworm, you really are a worthless contribution to this thread.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2015 - 08:51am PT
He's reverted to his cowardly practice of cut, paste and hide.
WBraun

climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:04am PT
More lunatic brainwashed fools repeating the American empires psy-ops fake war against the ISIS.

The whole show ISIS is supported (including all those humvees and Toyota's stingers missiles etc etc.) all run by the USA.

You loons have been 0wned a hundred times over and still stupid enough to keep spewing your loon brainwashed garbage here.

No wonder it just keeps going.

Nuke this stooopid loon thread as you're still as stupid as you were when you all fell for the previous Bush's administrations psy-ops brainwashing.

You'll never get it.

Yer all too dumbed down stupid sheeple Americans ......
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:14am PT
" I started a war. I started a lot of wars. It's what I do."
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:20am PT
I can take some criticism, but when someone calls me "sheeple" it really stings.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:21am PT
Actually the article Bookworm linked is worth pondering.
Here's another site with the article without a subscription:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/saudi-nuclear-deal-raises-stakes-for-iran-talks-2015-03-11-21103596

Contemplating the full and possible unintended consequences of the current deal with Iran is worth pondering.
Are we going too soft on Iran with this deal?
What are the pros and cons of this deal with Iran?
Do the points agreed to have an end date and why?
What about ICBM's that Iran is developing?

I'm not a policy wonk, but I do seek the truth.
Mostly it doesn't come from a strictly partisan view.
WBraun

climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:33am PT
The US has been criminally complicit against Iran for years thru the lies presented by the forked tongued snake Netanyahu and his criminal bought AIPAC US congress and CIA loons.

crankster

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:38am PT
Obviously, the people who took down the twin towers, shot JFK, invented AIDS and faked the moon landing are behind this. They operate out of the basement of the Denver Airport.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
Crankster, now I'm sorry I can't find my History of the 20th Century, as told by The Onion. Their headline from the JFK assassination reads something like "Kennedy Slain By CIA, Mafia, Castro, LBJ, Teamsters, Freemasons. . ."

John
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
DMT wrote:
This situation is not a good thing. When the military is revered and the politicians reviled, war cannot be too far over the horizon.

Good point.
One reason the military is revered would be their higher standards of character and personal integrity. The public also understands the personal sacrifices made by military personnel. If politicians were held to the same standard, Congress would have few left to legislate.
For just one example, what would anyone say is the greatest personal sacrifice our president has made in his life?
Hard to come up with something, eh?

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
**For just one example, what would anyone say is the greatest personal sacrifice our president has made in his life?
Hard to come up with something, eh?**

Just the current POTUS or each?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
Nope, just this one.

The black muslim one from the other Party.

That one.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:51pm PT
I get it. But does his family lie in bed with the Bin Laden's? <- now that's a sacrifice!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
On the foreign policy issue, I think Larry has articulated my position quite well. "avoiding nuclear war," while a necessary condition to any rational foreign policy, seems an insufficient one to me.

I gave the example of Ukraine vs. Russia precisely because it's difficult. If the only principle guiding our foreign policy is "avoiding nuclear war," does that mean that we acquiesce to anything a nuclear power wishes to do to a non-nuclear power? How do we differentiate between actions that produce "peace in our time" from those that truly produce peace? I don't think a foreign policy of ad hoc action or inaction produces much good. All it produces is unpredictability at best, and impotence at worst.

I also sense in this administration, and in the left generally, a lack of faith in any particular principle of what we used to call western civilization. Would today's administration make the Emperor of Japan renounce his divinity, and require a conquered Japan to adopt western-style democracy? I rather suspect it would not. Instead, they'd adopt a chauvinism saying that "they're just different. We can't impose on them what we want, because who are we to say we're right?"

On a slightly different topic, DMT, I think we generally hold the military in higher regard than other institutions because we perceive that they aren't in it for the money. We also appreciate a culture that holds individuals responsible for outcomes, even if this sometimes produces unfair results (for example, the blots on the reputations of Admiral Kimmel and General Short).

In contrast, most of the public, regardless of political affiliation, thinks that politicians act to aggrandize themselves, and act to dodge any sort of responsibility for the outcomes of their actions. I'm sorry the courts seem to be tarred with the same brush as elected officials, but I know that whenever parties go to court, at least one of them will be unhappy with the outcome.

This is a long way of saying that the respect we hold for the military does not mean that war is more likely. If anything, we respect the military because, almost to a person, those who serve or have served hate war, and won't provoke one unnecessarily. We can't say the same for our politicians.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
John posted
I gave the example of Ukraine vs. Russia precisely because it's difficult. If the only principle guiding our foreign policy is "avoiding nuclear war," does that mean that we acquiesce to anything a nuclear power wishes to do to a non-nuclear power? How do we differentiate between actions that produce "peace in our time" from those that truly produce peace? I don't think a foreign policy of ad hoc action or inaction produces much good. All it produces is unpredictability at best, and impotence at worst.

Let me see if I can remember Bush's foreign policy on Russia: Putin is an amazing human being. We are alike. Oh hey, please stop shelling Chechnya. Hey, wait no you can't annex Georgia. Please. Stop.

John posted
I also sense in this administration, and in the left generally, a lack of faith in any particular principle of what we used to call western civilization. Would today's administration make the Emperor of Japan renounce his divinity, and require a conquered Japan to adopt western-style democracy? I rather suspect it would not. Instead, they'd adopt a chauvinism saying that "they're just different. We can't impose on them what we want, because who are we to say we're right?"

Wow. Look at this old white guy lament the loss of an oppressive age of a world that is literally leaving him behind.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
"If the only principle guiding our foreign policy is "avoiding nuclear war," does that mean that we acquiesce to anything a nuclear power wishes to do to a non-nuclear power?"

Of course not...but that response doesn't have to mean boots on the ground, or nukes in the air, like the RepubliHawks would like to see.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:16pm PT

Wow. Look at this old white guy lament the loss of an oppressive age of a world that is literally leaving him behind.

You just made my point.

John
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
Man don't you guys miss when we could just nuke the sh#t out of a country after firebombing 300,000 civilians and then dictate our values to them? I don't think Obama shares these kind of western values.

Your point, John, was that the old way was the "right" way. The world has learned that it wasn't and that your view of "western values" actually isn't. Your way is literally what got us into this mess in the first place. I personally won't be shedding any tears.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
"...a lack of faith in any particular principle of what we used to call western civilization. "

Personally, my own view of 'western civilization' is one where carnage and catastrophic destruction of anything is avoided at all costs. You know....civilized.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Dave, I'm asking what the administration's policy is. If we can't discern it, neither can the rest of the world.

As for what I would do in Ukraine, I'd at least respond positively to their request for armaments. They weren't asking for troops, they were asking for bullets. I would also have given Poland the weapons it desired.

I'll also admit that I've criticized every administration since G.H.W. Bush for its non-assistance of the Russian Federation. I felt during the Yeltsin presidency that Russia had its equivalent of the Weimar Republic, and would end up with a fascist government. The kleptocrats currently in charge of the Kremlin have pretty much been exactly what I expected to see.

John
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2015 - 04:53pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 12, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
I hope you wiped off your keyboard after your little Hillary sesh, TGT.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 12, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
I'm curious what armaments we could give Ukraine that would allow them to beat the Russians militarily? Right now the Russians have barely lifted their pinky finger of available might and the Ukrainians are pretty ineffective against even that.

I see almost no likely solution to the eventual annexation of all of Ukraine. If there is a solution in favor of Ukraine I doubt it has much if any military component.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
http://www.scribd.com/doc/258526868/Letter-to-Obama-from-Iranian-Prisoner-of-Conscience
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:40pm PT
Well TGT,

it must be awful for you, living during one of the most successful Presidency's in history....

gas prices cut in half, roaring stock market, economy creating millions of jobs......

and to think he is only half white, so hard for you to take, eh bunky?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
Tom Cotton, the Senator who spearheaded the letter to Iran got $1 million from Bill Kristol’s ‘Emergency C’tee for Israel’


US Politics
Philip Weiss on March 10, 2015

The U.S. media have been sadly incurious about the origins of yesterday’s unprecedented Open Letter of 47 Republicans to the Iranian leadership seeking to block the president’s likely deal with Iran. The press has portrayed the letter as the work of Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton, a 37-year-old freshman senator so new to the limelight that the New York Times got his name wrong on first impression. But as a Times commenter writes, “Does anyone really believe the ‘freshman senator from Arkansas’ wrote the letter? No.”


- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/israel-fingerprints-republican#sthash.CPXuSMwA.dpuf
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
As for what I would do in Ukraine, I'd at least respond positively to their request for armaments. They weren't asking for troops, they were asking for bullets.

Perhaps the first thing Ukraine should do is stop selling tanks to the Russians!
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-06-03/why-some-ukrainian-defense-contractors-are-still-doing-business-with-russia
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 12, 2015 - 11:06pm PT
Spudboy sounds pretty open-minded. Have you met Sketch?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 12, 2015 - 11:07pm PT
"And of course WB. "

lulz
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2015 - 07:59am PT
Talk about a dysfunctional congress!

We really don’t have 218 votes to determine a bathroom break over here on our side. So how are we going to get 218 votes on transportation, or trade, or whatever the issue?”

-GOP Congressman Charlie Dent
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 13, 2015 - 08:18am PT
Fuking Morons. Sooo narrow minded. Surprising for "climbers". This thread is priceless....if one is bored and hunting for Sheeple.
Spud

We could say the same about you

You told us that you were a Political Science Teacher, and you had your class read this thread for entertainment.

Then you said you were an engineer, and now you're working graveyard....'

what is the truth here??

It's very apparent that you know very little about anything political, other than BS talking points..

But what's glaring, is your rash of insults in every post.
You want a debate, be civil.

No one will debate someone that says we are all stupid and don't know what we are talking about, when some of us actually DO know what we are talking about.

We research this stuff

Calling the Dems and Repubs all the same is just another way to say you are ignorant of our political system.

There is media pressure to make people think that very thing, and you know what it does? It cause voter apathy, and the Repubs win.
It has worked very well for them.

The Parties are not the same.



If you think Obama has been a failure, then you are saying that a Repub would have been a better President.
We can predict how that would be, war with Iran, more National Debt, full on war with ISIS, huge loses of personal liberties and protections, while the rich get richer and the Corporations reap more protections and profits.

Conservatives have never helped the middle class, they just don't care.
Voting for Republicans is voting against your best interest, it makes you a contributor to the problems you complain about.
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 08:27am PT
We research this stuff

Hahahaha lol

From your main slime media outlets who all report the same distorted watered down always incomplete news, who always censor the sensitive news that leads to the real truth and with outright lies built in.

Bend over and take it up the a*# is the is your wonderful media US news that is censored and distorted to the hilt.

Good job American sheeple.

Keep on drooling .....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 13, 2015 - 08:34am PT
So every news source is corrupt?
Not a single fact is available, it's all been filtered and changed by the magical illuminati?
It's all propaganda created for the sheeple to feed on to keep us stupid?

Wow
What a demented world view.



I wonder how WB get's his info?
INFOWARS.com ?

or through a psychic connection to God's knowledge bank in the sky?
or through his own self delusion = listening to the ground.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 13, 2015 - 09:45am PT
Impressive!
ElbowHornet

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 09:58am PT
Well Done!

Hey there SAY Crag Fry,

So it's okay with you to photoshop other people's pictures, but not your own?

What a crybaby fatboy. Your in my prayers!!!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:15am PT
I asked nicely for Locker to Not post objectionable Manips of me

He would not abide by my wishes

TGT has Never complained, so he must not mind, maybe he likes the attention.

See, that't the difference that you seem not to get

and since I'm not fat, I thought it was objectionable.
You think it's OK for someone to do something anyway after you ask them nicely Not to do it.
Are you a NAZI?

or another new Troll to rage against me?

6'2" and 190 lbs is Fat?

Go troll someone else you lying loser.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:16am PT
Awesome TGT manips...good job glue boi...
ElbowHornet

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:20am PT
Hey there say...your not fat? Right, and you never whine either.


*Reality-check and a dreamcatcher to aisle 5*
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:26am PT
There are no crybabies here
Just trolls looking to make trouble by bullying others with lies and BS.

If you respond to defend yourself, you get labeled a crybaby
That's a sick way to view a debate forum
ElbowHornet

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:29am PT
Hey there say crag fried,

you don't just respond you respond like baby

"Is this realy happening????"

how old are you anyway 13?
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:33am PT
Any of you wingNuts have a rebuttal to any of Craig's arguments?
Go ahead, give it a shot.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:34am PT
Angry loser Troll on aisle 5

Clean up required
ElbowHornet

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:39am PT
Hey There say frybaby,

its good to see all the edits to your posts, seems like fat is leaving your neurons and settling around middle. go sit on a cactus
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:39am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.

Mar 13, 2015 - 10:26am PT
There are no crybabies here
Just trolls looking to make trouble by bullying others with lies and BS.

If you respond to defend yourself, you get labeled a crybaby
That's a sick way to view a debate forum

Doood! You're on fire. Keep 'em coming.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:48am PT
Says the thin-skinned Sketch...
ElbowHornet

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:49am PT
hey there say is edwardt sketch?

thats nice to know that guy is a real buffoon.

peace/love!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:56am PT
Says the thin-skinned Sketch...

What matters is you care.

Peace.
ElbowHornet

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 10:59am PT
Hey there say sketch

"Look at me! I'm from Virgina Im an idot!"
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:01am PT
Craig, about the only thing I can say with real confidence on this thread is that if you post on it, someone will think you're an idiot and say so, often in rather mean fashion.

I try to respond to criticisms of my arguments, but for the (thankfully rare) personal attacks, I learned almost 60 years ago to refrain from a defensive response (or usually, any response at all). If someone makes fun of me (as opposed to my arguments) at least one of two things is usually true:

1. I deserve it, in which case my best response is self-effacement; and/or

2. They, not I, come across as jerks, in which case my best response is silence.

When I respond to a personal attack defensively, I just leave myself open to more attacks.

I must admit, though. Locker's photoshopped posts on the previous page struck me as hilarious.

John
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:17am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:19am PT
Sage advice, John.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2015 - 11:27am PT
John, I have several issues with you (see below).




My complaint about Mr. John Eleazarian

The furor over opportunism has been an acutely frustrating cultural phenomenon: pregnant with great possibility, touching on vital and fascinating issues, yet initially formulated in a one-sided and uncontrollable manner that will rob, steal, cheat, and murder in the coming days. What's important to note, however, is that Mr. John Eleazarian's plans for the future share many of the same characteristics. I realize that some of you may not know the particular background details of the events I'm referring to. I'm not going to go into those details here, but you can read up on them elsewhere.

If John successfully prevents us from acknowledging and respecting the essential humanity of all of Earth's people, we will rise up again, stronger, firmer, mightier. We will think outside the box. We will ensure that everyone knows that I shall be blamed by ignorant persons when I say that ignorance of the law does not excuse John from the consequences of violating it. Cruel as that maxim may appear, his long-term goal is to sully my reputation. I hate to break it to him, but down that path lies only heartache and tears. That's why I insist on mentioning that John keeps trying to borrow money and spend it on programs that rewrite history to reflect or magnify an imaginary “victimhood”. And if we don't remain eternally vigilant, he will indeed succeed. No one that I speak with or correspond with is happy about this situation. Of course, I don't speak or correspond with nocent quacks, John's serfs, or anyone else who fails to realize that John proclaims that his ethics will universally benefit all mankind. In reality, his ethics will benefit only those stuporous segregationists who alter, rewrite, or ignore past events to make them consistent with John's current “reality”. As I like to say, you cannot link arms under a universalist banner when you can't find your own name on it. By that I mean that I definitely have no appetite for ensuring that there can never in the future be accord, unity, or a common, agreed-upon destiny among the citizens of this once-great nation. Many repressive John Eleazarian clones, however, do. That's why I want them all to read this letter and others like it and discover for themselves that I shall not argue that John's newsgroup postings are an authentic map of his plan to bowdlerize all unfavorable descriptions of his objectives. Read them and see for yourself.

What John is incapable of seeing is that he has come up with proven methods to hasten society's quiescence to moral pluralism and epistemological uncertainty. All you have to do is let your guard down. I insist I know why he has been creating some abysmal, pseudo-psychological profile of me to discredit my opinions. He considers it an interesting sociological experiment for determining whether people can be influenced to transform our little community into a global crucible of terror and gore.

While some of John's paroxysms are very attractive on the surface and are decidedly entertaining, they ultimately serve to obliterate our sense of identity. If you ever ask John to do something, you can bet that your request will get lost in the shuffle, unaddressed, ignored, and rebuffed. I wouldn't waste my time trying to uplift individuals and communities on a global scale to punish him for his crazy initiatives if his inclinations weren't parroted by so many cuckoo, contumelious wastrels. It's also true that John is a lifelong member of the Church of Quisquilious Stalinism, but that'll have to be a subject for another letter.

It's really not bloody-mindedness that compels me to tell John how wrong he is. It's my sense of responsibility to you, the reader. In a John-led society, people who analyze John's methods of interpretation in the manner of sociological studies of mass communication and persuasion will be suppressed, vilified, hated, imprisoned, exiled, and killed. But it doesn't stop there.

Let me try to put this in perspective: There are some troubling issues here, even putting aside the basic question of whether or not the issues surrounding obscurantism are more complex and embedded than John will admit. For instance, there are few certainties in life. I myself have counted only three: death, taxes, and John doing some frowsy thing every few weeks. For your benefit, I quote word-for-word something he once said: “The purpose of education is not to produce independent thinkers but submissive state subjects.” The significance of this otiose statement is that engaging John in intelligent debate is far from easy. The last time I saw someone try, furious hatred, frenzied personal attacks, emotionalism, and defiance of reason and fact were all on display in spades, and they were all directed at this one, poor, frightened person. I wish John would more calmly accept the fact that his possession-obsessed, sick annunciations have caused dysfunctional porn stars to descend upon us like a swarm of locusts, agitating for indoctrination programs in local schools. I used to agree completely with those who claimed that gangsterism, as a social philosophy, is hubristic. Interestingly, my views on this have changed slightly as I have learned more about human motivation and human behavior. Now I believe that John has somehow managed to get the media to pay rapt attention to his brown-nosing morals. I don't know what sort of Jedi mind control he's been using to pull that off, but I do know that I once managed to get John to agree that he, in his infinite wisdom, has decided to add insult to injury. Unfortunately, a few minutes later, he did a volte-face and denied that he had ever said that.

Anyone who takes even a cursory glance at this letter will quickly discover that John keeps stating over and over again that the rest of us are an inferior group of people, fit only to be enslaved, beaten, and butchered at the whim of our betters. This drumbeat refrain is clearly not consistent with the facts on the ground—facts such as that John proclaims at every opportunity that he'd never compromise the free and open nature of public discourse. The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks. Although theoretical differences can be drawn between his sullen roorbacks and puerile interventionism, these are distinctions without a difference. This is a suitable place in the letter to explain how by using bombastic language and selective quotation, John is able to boss others around. Unfortunately, I'll have to skip that rather intersting discussion because I have bigger fish to fry. In particular, I need to tell you that John's excuses have merged with metagrobolism in several interesting ways. Both spring from the same kind of reality-denying mentality. Both destroy our youths' ability to relax, reflect, study, and meditate. And both create a factitious demand for his quarrelsome apologues.

We must make some changes here. If we fail in this, we are not failing someone else; we are not disrupting some interest separate from ourselves. Rather, it is we who suffer when we neglect to observe that rather than attempting to work out his disagreements with others, John commonly turns to his friends tapinosis and meiosis, calling his opponents “viperine prima donnas”, “nasty gits”, or even “uncouth soi-disant do-gooders”. I find that rather sad, primarily because John's yes-men, who are legion, often reverse the normal process of interpretation. That is, they value the unsaid over the said, the obscure over the clear. My purpose here is not to induce John to perceive his errors of perception and judgment and make him realize that his harangues are based on some deep-rooted personality disorder. Well, okay, it is. But I should point out that his perspective is that his wrongheaded psychobabble is based upon a firm and vivid grasp of the concrete truths of life itself. My perspective, in contrast, is that John is planning to instigate acrimony and discord. This does not bode well for the future because people who agree with his jibes are either stupid, drunk, on drugs, paid off by John, or are disdainful traitors. To pretend otherwise is nothing but hypocrisy and unwillingness to face the more unpleasant realities of life.

Idle hands are the devil's tools. That's why John spends his leisure time devising ever more impulsive ways to grant peccable moochers the keys to the kingdom. For his shallow plans to succeed, John needs to dumb down our society. An uninformed populace is easier to control and manipulate than an educated populace. Faster than you can say “philodestructiveness”, schoolchildren will stop being required to learn the meanings of words like “hexosemonophosphoric” and “indistinguishability”. They will be incapable of comprehending that I have one itsy-bitsy problem with John's practices. Videlicet, they poison the relationship between teacher and student. And that's saying nothing about how when one actually reads his rambling communiqués, which I recommend one do, it's hard to tell whether John is disagreeing with me or making my point. In any event, I stick with my own view, which is that the television-addicted, drone inhabitants of John's rotting empire of clericalism uniformly believe that prisons exist not for punitive or rehabilitative purposes but rather to carry out a surly political agenda against minorities and the poor. Well, I have news for such yellow-bellied, narrow-minded chawbacons: Many scholars have already concluded that John's effusions are highly manipulative. Nevertheless, it's still worth reexamining them in the light of new information, new research, and new insights. Doing so is sure to reveal that John sees no reason why he shouldn't concoct labels for people, objects, and behaviors in order to manipulate the public's opinion of them. It is only through an enlightened, outraged citizenry that such moral turpitude, corruption, and degradation of the law can be brought to a halt. So, let me enlighten and outrage you by stating that if John doesn't like it here, then perhaps he should go elsewhere.

We all need to be aware of each other's existence as intelligent, feeling, human beings, even if some of us are cranky hooligans. John is neither morally nor intellectually consistent. If he were, he wouldn't first drag everything that is truly great into the gutter then afterwards decry my observation that he yearns for the Oriental despotisms of pre-Hellenic times, the neolithic culture that preceded the rise of self-consciousness and egoism. By the same token, John abhors the current era, in which people are free to lead the way to the future, not to the past. I would like to go on, but I do have to keep this letter short. So I'll wrap it up by saying that most of us warrant that Mr. John Eleazarian is extremely effrontive.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:29am PT
Yay!

The return of the text generator!

Edit:
"While some of John's paroxysms are very attractive on the surface and are decidedly entertaining, they ultimately serve to obliterate our sense of identity. "


John, I've been meaning to tell you this.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:36am PT
Toto...get away from that curtain...!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:37am PT
That's not fair, dirtbag. You should have warned me before reading your post - the coffee is coming out my nostrils.

Well done, sir

John
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:37am PT
Thank God for Locker. This old world desperately needs more comedy. We all need to lighten up, take ourselves less seriously and learn to laugh at ourselves.

So I was thinking that if Republicans are wrong about everything, then if they did the opposite they would be right.

Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Edit:
Dirtbag...LMAO...I think.
You did send me to the dictionary several times.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 13, 2015 - 11:45am PT
....“philodestructiveness”, schoolchildren will stop being required to learn the meanings of words like “hexosemonophosphoric” and “indistinguishability”. They will be incapable of comprehending that I have one itsy-bitsy problem with John's practices. Videlicet....


I'm going straight to dictionary.com with this stuff.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2015 - 11:49am PT
Larry:



http://www.pakin.org/complaint/





;-)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 13, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
Craig, about the only thing I can say with real confidence on this thread is that if you post on it, someone will think you're an idiot and say so, often in rather mean fashion.

Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!


Stupid git!!

Is that what you mean? :-)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 13, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
Exactly, you vomitous mass!

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 13, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
I know who ElbowHurt is, and he a Psychopath.
He's come on several times before with new names each time, and he purposefully stalks me so he can throw insults and bully me.
He bullied some other posters today as well.


Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists

Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.

Post published by Jennifer Golbeck Ph.D. on Sep 18, 2014 in Your Online Secrets
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists


In this month's issue of Personality and Individual Differences, a study was published(link is external) that confirms what we all suspected: Internet trolls are horrible people.

Let's start by getting our definitions straight: An Internet troll is someone who comes into a discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, in fact, it seems like there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.

What kind of person would do this? Some Canadian researchers decided to find out.

They conducted two online studies with over 1,200 people, giving personality tests to each subject along with a survey about their Internet commenting behavior. They were looking for evidence that linked trolling with the "Dark Tetrad" of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism.


They found that Dark Tetrad scores were highest among people who said trolling was their favorite Internet activity. To get an idea of how much more prevalent these traits were among Internet trolls, see this figure from the paper:


Look at how low the Dark Tetrad scores are for everyone except the trolls! Their scores for all four traits soar on the chart. The relationship between trolling and the Dark Tetrad is so significant that the authors write in their paper:


"... the associations between sadism and GAIT (Global Assessment of Internet Trolling) scores were so strong that it might be said that online trolls are prototypical everyday sadists." [emphasis added]

Trolls truly enjoy making you feel bad. To quote the authors once more (because this is a truly quotable article):"Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun ... and the Internet is their playground!"

The next time you encounter a troll online, remember:
1.These trolls are some truly horrible people.
2.It is your suffering that brings them pleasure, so the best thing you can do is ignore them.


the sadist says
it's all in good fun, why do you take it so seriously?

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 13, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
This is a debate about Trolls

why does everyone have to say
"don't take it so seriously"

It's educational to look inside the troll, to ask them questions, to find out if it makes them happy or not.
Do they enjoy insulting people? Do they insult their wife? or just other posters?

I don't take it seriously enough to have it affect me in one way or another.
But trolling needs to be talked about, right?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 13, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
No, Craig. I don't think so. Let it go, man.

If it degrades to the point of doing slimy sh#t offline, then go after it. Otherwise, it's just stoooopid pixel bitching.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
You fools need to go .....

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 13, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
That is some beautiful rock.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 13, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
Locker's photoshopped posts on the previous page struck me as hilarious.

Hilarious and priceless. Ho man, that was worth the dime.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 15, 2015 - 07:25am PT
italic text
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 15, 2015 - 09:24am PT
"(Have you rehabilitated yourself?)"
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 15, 2015 - 10:55pm PT
Locker just won this thread.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 17, 2015 - 08:21am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

“Freedom of speech, in a space that aims to be as inclusive as possible, can be interpreted as hate speech.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415495/seeking-meaning-life-uc-student-leaders-remove-american-flag-dennis-prager


burning a flag is "free speech"; flying a flag is "hate speech"
WBraun

climber
Mar 17, 2015 - 08:30am PT
This man says no more politarded posts ....

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 17, 2015 - 09:07am PT
hopenchange:

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/03/17/lawmaker-calls-for-rebellion-against-epa-pollution-emissions-for-backyard/



why do libs hate barbecue so much?
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 17, 2015 - 10:05am PT
no more politarded posts

Let's axe the mindtard and scientard v religitard threads, too. Those are the worst.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 17, 2015 - 10:48am PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 17, 2015 - 11:36am PT
Is Romney going to wear the Magic Underwear....?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Mar 17, 2015 - 11:45am PT
Why are the Republicans wrong about everything? Who gives a s#it! More of this...


Where the hell is that? Looks a bit like Tahquitz/Suicide. Smiling because he now has sweeeet hand jams.....aaaaa man!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 18, 2015 - 03:51am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415555/dc-cancels-comic-cover-after-complaints-jokers-threatening-batgirl-sexist-katherine


dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 06:17am PT
Bookworm is saying "hath wrought" again.

He must think he is saying something very, very, very, very, very, very important and profound.

Bonus: he is complaining about complaining about sexism again.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 18, 2015 - 06:48am PT
Republican's...can't wait for this...

Real estate mogul Donald Trump is going a step further in his presidential machinations for 2016 than he did in 2012.

The New Hampshire Union-Leader and local TV station WMUR reported that Trump planned to announce the formation of a presidential exploratory committee on Wednesday, a day before visiting the first-in-the-nation primary state.

"I am the only one who can make America truly great again!" Trump said in a statement obtained by CNBC.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 07:16am PT
^^^^^ oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please...^^^^^
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 18, 2015 - 09:19am PT
Kinda looks like the Rostrum Rock, but hands out a roof?

Certainly not the Nutcracker mantel.


And speaking of nutcrackers, how about that new GOP budget!
WBraun

climber
Mar 18, 2015 - 09:53am PT
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Mar 18, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
"They" say Tahquitz is the place to train for The Valley. That route MUST be in The Valley. (yea, I know. I'm miles behind the rest of you. Never been there climbing) This thread's turning into a nice little climbing thread. Insane Pics WB.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 18, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
Start a New thread

"The Political Thread"
Then we won't have to resort to saying
Take a break...bookie, we don't want to alert the admin that a political debate is still going on here, and that Repubs may have huge problems with the title. And may complain about all these OT threads on the first page.. only because of the title.......!!

Times have changed, the right wing has taken over the media, so we need to be able to debate without raising too many Right Wing Flags.

if we had completely upfront titled thread, so everyone knows what the topic is, "politics" then the reactionaries will be diffused and all the good folks on ST can either avoid the "Political Thread" or contribute to it..


that route is NOT in So. Cal.
The Valley for sure.





And then we can debate all we want without offending the other OT threads on the front page
WBraun

climber
Mar 18, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
That's NOT in the Valley. ^^^^

And that dude with the boom box is listening to "Double Cross" by Rolinndo Politard ......
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 18, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
The Lower Yosemite routes are referred to as "The Valley"
WBraun

climber
Mar 18, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
That's not the "Lower Yosemite" either .......
WBraun

climber
Mar 18, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
I showed John this climb and told him it's his for the FA.

His eyes bulged out of his head when he saw it.

WBraun

climber
Mar 18, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
The "Donald" likes Bachar's ascent too .....


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 18, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 18, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
One of the best parts of Craig's return (still waiting for cactus pics)...regular postings of This Modern World.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 23, 2015 - 07:45am PT
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8277197/obamacare-price-myth


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 24, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
What? No nose-rubbing from the Repugs about Obama's announcement today that troops are going to be in Afghanistan longer than expected?

You guys are slacking. Or maybe you're inconsolable about The Chief's departure. Get over it, and get back on the ball.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 24, 2015 - 07:24pm PT

I'm totally behind Ted and Trump,
I'm sure Bluering is with me 100%,what could be better for America

Ted and Trump aren't your typical rich elitist intellectual French gay folks like we have controlling us now, they are real boot strap cowboys that want to help us get rich like them.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Mar 24, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
Imagine...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 24, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
Argle Bargle!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 24, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 24, 2015 - 10:24pm PT
You can't make this stuff up.

A day after announcing his White House bid – which included beating on the Affordable Care Act, his favorite punching bag – Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, says he’s signing up for Obamacare.

Yes, you read that correctly: The man whose signature applause line is a promise to “repeal each and every word of Obamacare,” went on Healthcare.gov and got himself some benefits. Hypocrisy? Sure, but not in the way you might think.

Cruz had been covered through his wife’s employer, Goldman Sachs. If some insurance plans are Cadillacs, hers was a chauffeured, solid-gold Fleetwood, reportedly worth some $20,000 a year -- around half of Texas’ median income. Heidi Cruz is taking a year or so of unpaid leave to help him on his campaign, though, so her health care coverage evaporates along with her likely very substantial paycheck.

Now, the senator – or maybe an aide, or an intern or campaign volunteer or someone – will schlep to the computer, log on to Healthcare.gov and hunch down over the keyboard to do the Obamacare two-step to get coverage for the upcoming year.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 24, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
Oh the Irony!
The other Repubs will skewer him for it. I'll bet he backs out. He'll have to if he really wants the nomination.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 25, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 25, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
A highly edited chop-job from James O'Keefe and his notorious spin-job Project Veritas?

SHOCKING.

Or in other words:

Yyyyyyaaaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnn.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 25, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
Only a yawn for a prog as they would consider it a "progressive" norm to have an ISIS club on a university campus.

Complete with "coaches".
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 25, 2015 - 08:35pm PT
Ever heard of editing, TGT?

Nah, didn't think so. You just swallow that sh#t hook, line & sinker like every thing else fed to you by Drudge, Breitbart, and Murdoch. Human centipede-like.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 25, 2015 - 09:02pm PT
How can he breathe in that rightwing media bubble?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 26, 2015 - 07:10am PT
LOlL^^^^


What positive and progressive things beside your self serving special interests are you Republicans FOR ?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 07:22am PT
FEAR.

FEAR FEAR FEAR.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 26, 2015 - 07:24am PT
Holy crap, kos. That .gif was great.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 26, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Trillion Dollar Fraudsters

by Paul Krugman, NY Times

MARCH 20, 2015

By now it’s a Republican Party tradition: Every year the party produces a budget that allegedly slashes deficits, but which turns out to contain a trillion-dollar “magic asterisk” — a line that promises huge spending cuts and/or revenue increases, but without explaining where the money is supposed to come from.

But the just-released budgets from the House and Senate majorities break new ground. Each contains not one but two trillion-dollar magic asterisks: one on spending, one on revenue. And that’s actually an understatement. If either budget were to become law, it would leave the federal government several trillion dollars deeper in debt than claimed, and that’s just in the first decade.

You might be tempted to shrug this off, since these budgets will not, in fact, become law. Or you might say that this is what all politicians do. But it isn’t. The modern G.O.P.’s raw fiscal dishonesty is something new in American politics. And that’s telling us something important about what has happened to half of our political spectrum.

So, about those budgets: both claim drastic reductions in federal spending. Some of those spending reductions are specified: There would be savage cuts in food stamps, similarly savage cuts in Medicaid over and above reversing the recent expansion, and an end to Obamacare’s health insurance subsidies. Rough estimates suggest that either plan would roughly double the number of Americans without health insurance. But both also claim more than a trillion dollars in further cuts to mandatory spending, which would almost surely have to come out of Medicare or Social Security. What form would these further cuts take? We get no hint.

Meanwhile, both budgets call for repeal of the Affordable Care Act, including the taxes that pay for the insurance subsidies. That’s $1 trillion of revenue. Yet both claim to have no effect on tax receipts; somehow, the federal government is supposed to make up for the lost Obamacare revenue. How, exactly? We are, again, given no hint.

And there’s more: The budgets also claim large reductions in spending on other programs. How would these be achieved? You know the answer.

It’s very important to realize that this isn’t normal political behavior. The George W. Bush administration was no slouch when it came to deceptive presentation of tax plans, but it was never this blatant. And the Obama administration has been remarkably scrupulous in its fiscal pronouncements.

O.K., I can already hear the snickering, but it’s the simple truth. Remember all the ridicule heaped on the spending projections in the Affordable Care Act? Actual spending is coming in well below expectations, and the Congressional Budget Office has marked its forecast for the next decade down by 20 percent. Remember the jeering when President Obama declared that he would cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term? Well, a sluggish economy delayed things, but only by a year. The deficit in calendar 2013 was less than half its 2009 level, and it has continued to fall.

So, no, outrageous fiscal mendacity is neither historically normal nor bipartisan. It’s a modern Republican thing. And the question we should ask is why.

One answer you sometimes hear is that what Republicans really believe is that tax cuts for the rich would generate a huge boom and a surge in revenue, but they’re afraid that the public won’t find such claims credible. So magic asterisks are really stand-ins for their belief in the magic of supply-side economics, a belief that remains intact even though proponents in that doctrine have been wrong about everything for decades.

But I’m partial to a more cynical explanation. Think about what these budgets would do if you ignore the mysterious trillions in unspecified spending cuts and revenue enhancements. What you’re left with is huge transfers of income from the poor and the working class, who would see severe benefit cuts, to the rich, who would see big tax cuts. And the simplest way to understand these budgets is surely to suppose that they are intended to do what they would, in fact, actually do: make the rich richer and ordinary families poorer.

But this is, of course, not a policy direction the public would support if it were clearly explained. So the budgets must be sold as courageous efforts to eliminate deficits and pay down debt — which means that they must include trillions in imaginary, unexplained savings.

Does this mean that all those politicians declaiming about the evils of budget deficits and their determination to end the scourge of debt were never sincere? Yes, it does.

Look, I know that it’s hard to keep up the outrage after so many years of fiscal fraudulence. But please try. We’re looking at an enormous, destructive con job, and you should be very, very angry.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Actual (ACA) spending is coming in well below expectations, and the Congressional Budget Office has marked its forecast for the next decade down by 20 percent.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Actual (ACA) spending is coming in well below expectations, and the Congressional Budget Office has marked its forecast for the next decade down by 20 percent.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Actual (ACA) spending is coming in well below expectations, and the Congressional Budget Office has marked its forecast for the next decade down by 20 percent.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 26, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
Didja read this, TGT?

Actual (ACA) spending is coming in well below expectations, and the Congressional Budget Office has marked its forecast for the next decade down by 20 percent.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 26, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
My wife had a preggers patient yesterday who lost her insurance, while pregnant,
due to the ACA. She was not a happy camper. The patient, that is.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 26, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
Reilly,what would you and yours present that would be better?

Show your colors.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 04:33pm PT
Probably because it was a bullshit plan that didn't provide the coverage she thought she'd paid for.

You know...insurance company lying...happens all the time. Betcha any kind of new policy she'd get nowadays would actually provide the coverage she thinks she's supposed to get.

Of course, the rates will be ridiculous...that's a function of a for-profit healthcare system, which is more concerned with shareholder returns than patient care.

Did you hear that the California Franchise Tax Board withdrew Anthem-Blue Shield's non-profit tax status last week? Too many scandals on ridiculously high salaries for upper level execs.

Yep.....this kinda sh#t sure wouldn't happen under a Public Healthcare system....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 26, 2015 - 08:48pm PT

14 Reasons Why House and Senate Republicans Have Declared Economic War On Average Americans

Poll after poll finds Americans want the exact opposite of what the GOP proposes.

By Steven Rosenfeld / AlterNet

March 20, 2015
http://www.alternet.org/economy/14-reasons-why-house-and-senate-republicans-have-declared-economic-war-average-americans

If you’re among the millions of Americans who feel bypassed by the economic recovery, you should pay attention to what the GOP-controlled Congress says it wants do to the federal government—via the 2016 budget—because if Republicans get even a fraction of what they have proposed, your living standards will start sliding downhill.

This is the takeaway from economists and experts who know how to ignore the right wing’s ridiculous rhetoric about freedom and opportunity, and instead see exactly who will be hurt, and how that will unfold—if the GOP rips the floor out of virtually every federal social safety net, as they propose, and also raises taxes on already struggling lower wage earners, which they also propose.

“The simplest way to understand these budgets is surely to suppose that they are intended to do what they would, in fact, actually do: make the rich richer and ordinary families poorer,” wrote Paul Krugman, The New York Times’ columnist and Nobel Prize-winning economist. “We’re looking at an enormous, destructive con job, and you should be very, very angry.”

The GOP-controlled House and Senate budgets not only drastically cut spending on education, retirement, environment, road and bridges, climate change, immigration, job creation, Obamacare, food stamps, and other social welfare programs; but it gives the Pentagon a blank check, and includes tax cuts for the rich and corporations while raising taxes for lower-income Americans. That’s the analysis by the National Priorities Project (NPP), not just Krugman, and they make an even more disturbing point.

In almost every one of these budget areas, nationwide polls show that a majority of Americans strongly oppose what the GOP is proposing. In other words, the Republicans are not delivering the kind of federal government that Americans want; they are declaring economic war on average Americans by reshaping government to serve the upper classes and biggest businesses.

What follows is a summary of the NPP’s analysis, with its documentation, showing that Repubicans are brazenly ignoring public opinion and national needs—which isn’t just anti-democratic but reveals how deeply corrupt the modern GOP has become.

1. Bleed domestic programs to death.The budget is broken down into various areas that are reviewed separately, starting with domestic discretionary spending. This includes education, energy, environment, housing, job training and more. The White House wants modest increases in these areas in 2016. Polls show that Americans want more investment in infrastructure, climate change, the economy, immigration, and support higher tax revenues for these priorities. The GOP propose to freeze current spending or cut it back by hundreds of billions of dollars starting next fall, adding up to $5 trillion in cuts over the next decade.

2. Who needs new or better jobs? Two-thirds of Americans say improving job prospects is a key issue facing Washington. Obama wants to spend about half a trillion dollars over the next six years on road and bridge upgrades, research and development, and give tax credits to new manufacturers. The House and Senate budgets propose “no new funding” in these areas, NPP said, with the Senate saying that “reduced spending and regulation will indirectly lead to job creation.”

3. Who needs a good education? The same-size majority that wants to see more and better jobs, also wants to see Congress improve access to education. The White House wants to expand federal subsidies from pre-school through high school, and spend $60 billion to provide two years of community college for free over the next decade. Republicans propose the opposite. The House wants to cap federal Pell grants, which are awarded to low-income people for college and graduate school. That means “financial aid to fewer families,” NPP said. It also wants “substantial cuts” to discretionary education programs. The Senate is as bad. NPP said its budget has “no new funding for education,” and “unspecified cuts to domestic discretionary spending could mean cuts to education.”

4. Who needs healthcare anyway?Obamacare may have its problems because it relies on private insurers to be middlemen, but since its inception 11.7 million people have gained access to healthcare and millions have subsidized premiums. The Kaiser Family Foundation, which tracks healthcare trends, reports that 56 percent of Americans want Congress to expand, improve and implement the law. Obama wants “small tweaks” in 2016, NPP said, whereas the House and Senate still obsess with repealing it entirely.

5. Next on the chopping block: Social Security. Here, too, even cautious pollsters like the Pew Research Center, report that 66 percent of Americans want to strengthen the program—which, contrary to GOP rhetoric, isn’t an “entitlement,” but the government acting as a retirement bank for decades of payroll deductions. Both chambers have already begun to attack a small part of Social Security that helps people with disabilties, saying they want to weed out fraud and cut payments. Meanwhile, the House wants a commission created to “study the program’s problems,” as NPP put it. The GOP agenda is not expanding payments to make life easier, but cutting senior benefits while allowing young people to give their payroll deductions to Wall Street.

6. Privatize Medicare, health care for seniors. Medicare is the federal government health plan for people age 65 and older. It is not free, but costs significantly less than private health insurance. Pew reported that 61 percent of Americans want this system fortified and improved. Obama wants to raise premiums for wealthy retirees, start co-payments for home health care, and allow the federal government to negotiate for lower drug costs, NPP said. The House GOP would also raise premiums for wealthier people, but starting in 2024 if would offer people a lump-sum payment to end their coverage, so they could theoretically buy private insurance. They also would ban the government from negotiating lower drug prices. Both of those proposals are giveaways that take money out of seniors’ pockets and give it to corporations. The Senate GOP simply says it wants to cut about half a trillion dollars from Medicare over the next decade, but doesn’t say how or where those cuts would be. That's pretending no one would be hurt.

7. Kick 7 Million Poor People Off Medicaid. Medicaid is the state-run health program for low-income people. Under Obamacare, before the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that states don’t have to implement this part of the law, the federal government planned to give every state grants to allow all poor people to get coverage through Medicaid. Even though almost all red states have not helped millions of residents this way, 7 million Americans have gotten access to health care through this Obamacare reform. Sixty-two percent of Americans believe that this Medicaid expansion should continue.

The White House wants to keep it that way and start a project where Medicaid recipients would be able to access new long-term care options, which comes into play when people no longer can take care of themselves. The House GOP doesn’t just want to repeal Obamacare, kicking millions off this health plan, NPP reports, but it would cut overall Medicaid spending and turn the program—along with SCHIP (the State Children’s Health Insurance Program)—into one block grant. That scenario all-but ensures that health care for poorer families will shrink. The Senate GOP, as with Medicare, says trillions must be cut, “but does not specify how,” NPP reports.

8. Our century’s version of “Let Them Eat Cake.” Those infamous words were attributed to France's queen in the late 1700s, when commenting about impoverished countrymen. Today, in America, the food stamp program (SNAP) tries to ensure that nobody goes hungry, and is supported by 70 percent of the public. The White House wants to continue it and make applying easier for seniors, NPP reports. The House GOP, in contrast, would make “deep cuts to SNAP” and turn it into a grant to states, where legislators might not even use the funds for food aid. The Senate GOP merely says food stamps should be on the list of programs that will yield $4.3 trillion in spending cuts over the next decade.

9. But give the Pentagon more blank checks. Sixty-three percent of Americans say the Pentagon spends the “right amount or too much on national security," NPP reported, citing a Gallup poll. The White House wants to increase the defense budget by more than half a trillion dollars in 2016, which NPP said would make it “the highest base budget in history.” The House Republican budget writers say that’s not enough, however, and seek to use loopholes in war funding laws to add several hundred billion more over the next decade. The Senate GOP essentially rubber stamps that approach, offering no specifics.

10. And use the excuse of endless war to do it.Even though 85 percent of the public is afraid that getting involved in the civil wars in Syria and Iraq will be long and costly, the White House wants $51 billion in additional wartime funding in 2016, and another $5.3 billion to fight the Islamic State (ISIS). Not to outdone by Obama, the House GOP proposes spending an additional $90 billion next year, NPP reports, while Senate GOP wants about $60 billion more on top of the baseline Pentagon budget.

11. Corporate taxes are still too high, right? That’s not what 66 percent of Americans told the Gallup poll, which the White House sort of acknowledges. Obama, trying to reach some deal with Republicans on tax reform, would lower the top corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 28 percent, and 25 percent for domestic manufacturing, NPP reports. But the White House also would impose fees on Wall Street speculators to raise “$112 billion over 10 years,” close loopholes that let companies park billions overseas tax-free, and impose a 14 percent tax on that cash. House Republicans, in contrast, have only proposed lower rates for corporations and small businesses, NPP said, and nothing to recapture outsized wealth. The Senate GOP hasn't proposed any corporate tax changes.

12. And the rich can’t afford to pay, either? In January, 68 percent of Americans polled said wealthy households aren’t paying a fair share in taxes. Obama’s budget would try to rebalance that by raising the capital gains tax—on investment income—to 28 percent, and close loopholes that only the wealthiest Ameicans can exploit, such as avoiding inheritance taxes, which would raise $208 billion in a decade, NPP reports. Obama also would implement a minimum tax rate for the richest people, and close a big loophole for Wall St. hedge fund managers, which would raise an additional $17.6 billion over a decade.

The House GOP, in contrast, only wants to lower tax rates “for individuals and familes,” NPP said, and eliminate the “Alternative Minimum Tax that sets a minimum tax for the wealthy.” The Senate GOP, as is the case with corporate taxes, hasn’t proposed any tax changes for the wealthy individuals, suggesting that the status quo works fine for them.

13. But working class and poor must pay more. In a January poll, 91 percent of Americans said that middle-class households paid enough or too much in taxes, and 79 percent said the same for low-income households. Obama’s response to these sentiments is to increase tax credits for all poor people—with and without children—and give a tax credit to students to help pay for college.

Both House and Senate GOP go in the opposite direction, phasing out two tax credits that now lower taxes for 13 million families, NPP reported. Their budgets allow “the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and Child Tax Credit (CTC) to expire in 2017, raising taxes on more than 13 million working families.” In other words, the GOP won't touch taxes for the rich, but will raise them on the poor.

14. Why Krugman called all of this a “con game.”In politics, there’s always a publicly given reason why something is proposed and the real motive, which is not stated. The GOP’s public rationale for these devastating cuts is their sanctimonious obsession with lowering the federal deficit, which makes them pretend to be responsible stewards. About two-thirds of the public say that reducing federal borrowing is a good idea. Obama has cut annual deficits by more than 50 percent since he took office, fact checkers have found. Obama’s 2016 budget would continue this, cutting about half a trillion next year, and $1.8 trillion over the next decade.

But deficit reduction is not what is going on here. The House and Senate Republican budgets actually would cut less money from next year’s deficit—about $350 billion—than Obama, NPP said, and then decrease domestic spending by more than $5 trillion dollars over the next decade to “balance” the budget. What's going on is the GOP wants to cut back the federal government to roughly where it was before the Progressive era began a century ago, when government helped the rich get richer and there were no safety nets.

“Think about what these budgets would do if you ignore the mysterious trillions in unspecified spending cuts and revenue enhancements,” Krugman wrote. “What you’re left with us huge transfers of income from the poor and the working class, who would see severe benefit cuts, to the rich, would would see big tax cuts.”

Krugman said this wasn’t Republican extremism as usual, but a declaration of economic warfare on behalf of wealthy Americans at the expense of everyday Americans who want, and expect, more from federal government.

“Look, I know that it’s hard to keep up with the outrage after so many years of fiscal fraudulence,” he concluded. “But please try. We’re looking at an enormous, destructive con job, and you should be very, very angry.”

The National Priorities Project’s budget analysis underscores that the GOP’s proposals aren’t just corrupt—a vast giveaway to the wealthy people and interests who fund their campaigns—but are fundamentally anti-democratic. Poll after poll report that a majority of Americans want Congress to invest in education, road and bridges, jobs, climate change, immigration, healthcare reform, retirement security, safety nets for the poor and vulnerable, and raise taxes on those who can easily afford to pay a fairer share.

Astoundingly, congressional Republicans not only oppose every one of those goals, but their budget proposals, if enacted, would undeniably make life harder for average Americans, millions of whom would slide down the economic ladder toward poverty.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 26, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
Wilbeer and company, I happen to favor universal healthcare. I don't favor
a ridiculously written and needlessly complicated bill that has caused much
grief to many people. Is that simple enough?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
Well, if our POTUS had ballz, we'd have that Universal Healthcare thang. Instead, we got a mealy capitulator who thinks baby steps is the best option.

Sucks, but better than the Republican healthcare option.

What was that, again?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
"Let them die."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 26, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 27, 2015 - 04:23am PT
Good answer Reilly,I totally agree.
There are reasons the ACA was gutted.

I am not telling you anything,just annoyed that folks want to eliminate the ACA ,yet willfully have no plans to address what happens when it is gone.

Respectfully,wilbeer.


BTW, it seems to be working smoothly over here.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:22am PT
BTW, it seems to be working smoothly over here.

Are you insured through an ACA program?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2015 - 06:42am PT
how barry "negotiates" with iran

iran: no surprise inspections

barry: thank you, sir, may i have another

iran: all the centrifuges we want

barry: thank you, sir, may i have another

iran: all work done in fortified, underground, bomb-proof facilities

barry: thank you, sir, may i have another

iran: DEATH TO AMERICA

barry: thank you, sir, may i have another


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ

crankster

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 06:53am PT
Ringworm, thanks for keeping us updated on what's circulating on the extremist rightwing media websites.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 27, 2015 - 06:54am PT
This morning, on MSNBC, former CIA Director James Woolsey said Iran's role is comparable to Germany's role in 1934 or 1935.

Neo-Con propaganda or honest, insider assessment?
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 07:20am PT
These guys see war as the only solution. Let diplomacy play out. The President has made it clear the US will not accept a nuclear Iran. The far right is just pandering to their crazy base.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2015 - 07:21am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

http://www.thelocal.fr/20150326/french-baker-forced-to-remove-racist-cakes


stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Mar 27, 2015 - 07:32am PT
Here's an op-ed piece by Shawn Vestal of the Spokesman-Review on March 27 regarding the attack on ACA by Republicans.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/mar/27/shawn-vestal-health-care-horror-stories-more-hairy/

"Remember “Bette in Spokane”? Bette in Spokane was the anecdotal hook that Cathy McMorris Rodgers used to critique Obamacare last year when she gave the GOP rebuttal to the State of the Union address.

"Obamacare had driven up Bette’s premiums, Rodgers said, by $700 a month. But Bette’s story was too bad to be true: Some basic efforts at verification here at the newspaper made it clear that Bette’s tale was not so simple. She did have the kind of inexpensive, catastrophic coverage that the new law eliminated. But cheaper options were available, and Bette simply did not investigate them. “I wouldn’t go on that Obama website at all,” she said at the time.

"This has been, more or less, the nature of the anecdotal assault on Obamacare by Rodgers and her party – loose, unverified and often uninformed personal anecdotes of questionable factual provenance. Perhaps the best example is the political ad last year in Michigan, in which a woman with leukemia claimed she’d lost her insurance and couldn’t afford its replacement – when in fact her premiums had been cut in half.

"It’s not that there are not legitimate criticisms to be made or problems with the law. It’s not that there are not some people whose premiums have increased or who’ve had to switch to other plans. There are. But the truth of most of these stories are complicated, not sexy and scary and politically useful. When you put them in context, they have to stand next to facts that many people find less than upsetting: a huge increase in the number of insured Americans, an end to the practice of denying insurance to the sick, and costs coming in lower than projected.

"So, five years after the law’s passage and a year after its implementation, Rodgers and her party are again seeking and peddling “stories.”

"“Tell Us Your Story,” Rodgers asked on her Web page and Facebook page this week. “Whether Obamacare has turned your tax filing into a nightmare, you’re facing skyrocketing premiums, or your employer has reduced your work hours, I want to hear about it.”

"What about other kinds of stories? Does Rodgers want to hear those?

"It turns out that lots of people want to share them, whether or not she cares to listen. The very first comment on her Facebook page said: “My story is that I once knew 7 people who couldn’t get health insurance. Now they all have it, thanks to the ACA and President Obama, and their plans are as good as the one my employer provides – and they pay less for them. Now, that’s not the kind of story you want to hear. You want to hear made-up horror stories. I don’t know anyone with one of those stories.”

"Another commenter added that she was saving $300 a month under her Obamacare plan. Yet another asked: “(N)ow my daughter, diagnosed with MS at age 22, can have insurance. What do you plan to do with her?”

"It would not be an exaggeration to say Rodgers was barraged with these sorts of stories.

"“My whole family now has coverage,” one person wrote. “The ACA is the cause for this. I work in health care, I have seen the increase in covered patients first hand.”

"Another wrote, “I work for Cancer Care Northwest. We actually have more patients with insurance and fewer having to choose treatment over bankruptcy. Cathy, I’m a die-hard conservative and I’m asking you to stop just slamming Obamacare. Fix it, change it or come up with a better idea!”

"And another: “I have 3 cousins I am immediately aware of that can now buy insurance whereas they previously couldn’t. At my company, we have seen a very low increase of 4 percent per year in premiums per employee for the last 3 years, where the prior increased premiums ran 8-20 percent per year. No one has had to change plans or doctors. It’s all good.”

"These are, of course, anecdotal, unverified stories. Just like the tale of Bette in Spokane. And yet one suspects that none of them will be mentioned in Rodgers’ next nationally televised speech.

"Rodgers helped peddle an Obamacare meme on Twitter this week, titled “5 Years of Broken Promises” and offered five stories of individuals whose plans were canceled. Each is identified by a first name and last initial, and each presents a “story” with more holes than a wheel of Emmenthaler. For a group with the resources and dedication on this issue that the House GOP has shown, what’s striking about these stories is how flimsy they are. They’re practically begging for horror stories, and these are the most horrific?

"The first story regards Stewart D. from Cottonwood, Calif., who said his family’s policy was canceled and he’s had to purchase another policy costing twice as much. This has happened to some people – people whose previous coverage does not meet improved standards under Obamacare. Often, the details about the plans and options available make these stories sound a lot less horrific, but maybe this one is exactly as advertised. Stewart D. says it has put a “serious hurt” on his budget.

"That’s the strongest example. Here’s another one, from Sandra P. of Augusta, Ga: “I am a 62-year-old widow and only make $8.79 an hour. I have lost my insurance coverage and cannot afford to pay for this.”

"How little would you have to know about Obamacare to not see the holes in that? Just how little does the GOP think people know to peddle this as a real-life example, and not a grotesque exaggeration of a fundamental misunderstanding?

"Very little. Rodgers asked for stories this week, and she got an earful. Let’s not hold our breath waiting for the hashtag campaign."
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 07:39am PT
http://www.salon.com/2015/03/26/gops_birther_hypocrisy_exposed_why_conservatives_are_conveniently_mum_on_ted_cruz_partner/


Paging bluering to insist that questioning the validity of Ted Cruz's citizenship is a really important and valid issue.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Harry was a great public servant. Hopefully, a Democrat will win his seat. Obviously, he or she won't get the white extremist, anti-government, armed militia vote.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:42am PT
Who the hell fuking writes like that and is SERIOUS???...

Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:50am PT
Bookworm...here is one of your guys...http://www.krdo.com/news/springs-representative-says-attack-in-which-baby-was-cut-from-womans-womb-was-punishment-from-god/32030946


Sick little POS!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 08:57am PT
Bob...you're back! Welcome.
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:18am PT
http://www.azcentral.com/story/laurieroberts/2015/03/19/sylvia-allen-senate-bill-1467/24990649/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:22am PT
Ron...I share in your jubilation over Reid's retirement...Which end of the cow will you kiss...? rj
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:27am PT
"In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve."
de Tocqueville
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:31am PT
Glad to see you back, Bob. You join Craig as a voice I missed in the debate.

Now, on a different subject, can someone tell me exactly what the U.S. expects to gain from its negotiations with Iran, given that Iran is a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty?

Thanks.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:36am PT
'Gain'? Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way.

I'm thinking (hoping) more like avoid. War, that is.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:38am PT
John...Pat Buchanan making sense?....you decide.

http://www.vdare.com/articles/the-enemy-of-my-enemy-why-not-negotiate-with-iran
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 09:40am PT
Apogee, since Iran's joining in the Non-Proliferation Treaty included a promise not to develop nuclear weapons, I'm having trouble seeing how their new promise not to develop them means anything. Then again, post-Non-Proliferation Treaty history shows that a promise not to develop nuclear weapons is unenforceable (or unenforced) anyway.

John

Edit: It frightens me to think Buchanan ever makes sense, but keeping dialog open with enemies differs from purporting to negotiate a deal to stop development of weapons that have already been promised not to be developed.

And Dave, I hope we're just people with differing opinions, not enemies. Although Bob and I have yet to meet personally, I hold him in very high esteem, and consider him a friend - as I do you.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:08am PT
John, I think Dave indirectly referred to you as an adversary, not an enemy. FWIW.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:12am PT
What do we stand to gain by negotiating with Iran?

Intrusive inspections leading to actionable intelligence on assets if needed. Lots and lots of information we would not have otherwise.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Not a bad strategy.

Sun Tzu
It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Mar 27, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
"Are you insured through an ACA program?"

Sketch,I am not ,but will be in 1 year.

My contract RN gf,is,and she has figured how to use NY's program very easily.

Not every state can figure out how to start a rockfight.




JE;Should we just bomb them then?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Concerning our negotiations with Iran on nukes:

As far as one eyed Harry goes, to paraphrase what a friend told me:
"If a woman showed up in the ER with those injuries and that story, the police would have been called immediately.
They would administer a Rape Kit and all fraternities at UNLV would be suspended."

The Faux news division of Rolling Stone magazine could not be reached for comment.
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
Thanks Larry, I don't get over to redstate or breitbart much so never know what's occupying the minds of the fringe.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:46pm PT
JE;Should we just bomb them then?

No. We should understand that their promise means nothing, so don't give up anything in exchange for a mere promise. "Trust, but verify" would be a big improvement over where this administration seems headed.

John
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
The atomic genie has been out of the bottle for decades. Iran will get its bomb no matter what we do, as will any other country with enough wealth and desire.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
"I thought it was Jack Germond."

Ask TGT. He just loves de Tocqueville.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Mar 27, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
'Gain'? Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way.

I'm thinking (hoping) more like avoid. War, that is.


app... how do you figure this treaty will do anything to avoid a war?

To me... the instant Iran has a bomb or two, they will use it on Isreal.... then what do you think will happen????

They, the Iran leaders, are not to be trusted, at all.


Your thinking seems to parallel the same ideas as Neville Chamberlains were in 1938....

surrender at any cost.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
How do you surmise the totality of my thinking from that little comment, guyman?

It's pretty hard to draw a parallel between Obama & Chamberlain...the last 7 years haven't strayed very far from the BushCheneyCo. doctrine, and has gone beyond it in many areas. If Romney had won & had the same record, he'd be lauded on the Right.

We don't need to be in another war, esp. one in the ME, where our record is so disastrous.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Mar 27, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
We don't need to be in another war, esp. one in the ME, where our record is so disastrous.

Agreed...

Bush and company were about as stupid as stupid could be. I see the President now, trying to out do Bush.

We have nothing to gain with this deal, Iran is conceding nothing. Thats not a deal at all.

And I see many similarities between now in the ME and Europe in the late 1930's.

And no, I cant even begin to know what you think, overall, by what you post...... who can??
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 27, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
Guyman wrote: Bush and company were about as stupid as stupid could be. I see the President now, trying to out do Bush.


Really, how???
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
France has more vested in 10 years of sanctions against Iran than any other country. They are not happy about this pending nuke deal, considering that Iran is still the world's largest sponsor of state terrorism (According to state departments in the West).


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath wrote that the nuclear genie is out of the bottle. That is true.
I doubt that singing Kumbayah to Ayatollahs will bring understanding ...except for Iran's understanding of how to game our political system to their advantage.
OTOH, this country hardly has more political capital to spend for boots on the ground.
so what do we do about about it? Big question for those eager for votes and / or legacies.
I remain more than skeptical of Iran's promises and intentions.
Edit: If we give up sanctions, there should be substantial guarantees without timelines. Is it practical, or would it work? It's the Middle East, who knows?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 27, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
We created our enemies so that we can create wars.

It is what we are good at. We are not good at winning them.

http://www.thenation.com/article/180175/america-war-record-unparalleled-failure#
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Mar 27, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
We created our enemies so that we can create wars.

Bob.... thats not true in any way shape or form.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 27, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
Guyman wrote: Bob.... thats not true in any way shape or form.


Prove me wrong.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
You prove your statement....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
http://www.vox.com/cards/things-about-isis-you-need-to-know/what-is-isis


https://libcom.org/history/1970-1987-the-contra-war-in-nicaragua


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/628478/Vietnam-War


http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/03/20/top-10-lessons-of-the-iraq-war-2/


http://www.alternet.org/story/46093/saddam_hussein%3A_a_dictator_created_then_destroyed_by_america
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:21pm PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:24pm PT
Nukes are only good for One Thing...

Defense.

If Iran gets a nuke, they will USE IT TO Defend their Country from other Countries with Nukes.

Everyone knows that if you use a nuke to strike a country, you have just signed your Country's Complete Destruction.

It is called "Mutual Assured Destruction".

Iran is not stupid,
the drums for war are just another Neo-Con CON.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
We invaded one country on Iran border and have a 10 year war with a country on one it's other borders.


And you can't see why they want nuclear weapons?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:58pm PT


Every picture tells a story...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States


More fun facts...
crankster

Trad climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 06:09pm PT
We do not have the influence in world affairs that the general public thinks we do. That frustrates the right, they want images akin to D-Day, the liberation of Paris circa 1945.

American might. They want it back. Invasion. Victory. Parades.

We are the last Superpower fercrissake! Get that black Muslim out of the White House and let's show some strength. Shoot now, aim later!

Launch the missiles!!!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 28, 2015 - 07:56am PT
the instant Iran has a bomb or two, they will use it on Isreal

Agreed Iran will follow out the muslim doctrine..


also: good night Reid!!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:00am PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 28, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Yeah, we shoulda nuked 'em years ago.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 28, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
You can tell it's a Ramirez cartoon because everything is labeled. (Sometimes twice)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 28, 2015 - 06:21pm PT
That's for the benefit of,

"progressives"
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 28, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
Half black?
Shit!111666.
thought he was Half white!!!111666
Sign me up for whatever TV tells me. asap

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 28, 2015 - 11:21pm PT
BENBROWNZIE!!!!111
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 29, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
US Lobbying Fails as Allies Flock to China-Led Bank

Posted By Jason Ditz On March 27, 2015 @ 5:30 pm In News | 8 Comments

Ever since its initial proposal by China as an alternative to the IMF and the World Bank, both of which are dominated by the United States, the proposed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) has been a target of heavy lobbying by the US, which has been warning allies and client states it would be strongly in their best interests not to join.

The US effort is also becoming a colossal failure, as nations across the region, as well as European powers, are flocking to the China-led bank, and seemingly everyone of note on board at this point.

In recent weeks, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Australia all joined, over US objections. South Korea was then heavily lobbied by the US, warned to “think twice” about what it did, but has joined as well.

In the end, the AIIB seems set to become an international lender of no small influence, and much more than China even suggested when it first proposed it. The US lobbying seems not only to have failed, but had the opposite effect, and is getting almost everybody united behind the bank.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 29, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
That's for the benefit of,

"progressives"

Awwww. My 7 year old and TGT both think air quoting is cutting edge satire. And people say there is no common ground in modern politics.
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2015 - 07:17pm PT
This is for you politards

Politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice.
You don’t. You have no choice.

You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land.
They own and control the corporations.

They’ve long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls.

They got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies,
so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear.

They got you by the balls.
They spend billions of dollars every day lobbying. Lobbying to get what they want.
Well, we know what they want – they want more for themselves and less for everybody else.

But I’ll tell you what they don’t want – they don’t want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking…
They want obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork.

And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits,
the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.

And now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your f*#kin’ retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street.

And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later ’cause they own this f*#kin’ place.

It’s a big club and you ain’t in it.

You and I are not in the big club…

The table is tilted folks.
The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice… Nobody seems to care.

That’s what the owners count on. They don’t give a f*#k about you. They don’t care about you at all!

The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their azholes every day,
because the owners of this country know the truth…

It’s called the American Dream, ’cause you have to be asleep to believe it.

~George Carlin
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 30, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
Indiana is about to get a big dose of free market capitalism. Vote how you choose, but if you want a modern educated force and the companies that can pay I am pretty sure the anti-gay stance is a loser. I guess there is still that chicken restaurant and hobby lobby.
SweetWilliam

Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
Mar 31, 2015 - 06:45am PT
You are wrogn ricky. That silver fox guy govornor said the same thing and hes wrong too. The other ones have gay people as class that cant be discriminated, the hossier law doesnt and thats the difference. its not the same hoss.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 31, 2015 - 09:04am PT
No one owns me
I am completely independent and skeptical of everything except verifiable facts.

Basically if it's been put out as a Republican Talking Point, from Fox News or Rush, you can bet it's based on lies, misinformation or right wing think tank propaganda.
Facts are the Right Wings worst enemy, they can only get so many people to believe it, but now that the right wing own almost all the media, almost everything we hear is biased towards right wing viewpoints.

We are all screwed until enough of us protest the power of the right wing politicians and media.


The law in Indiana is different for 2 reasons
The most important difference is that the Fed. law and the other 19 states say that THE GOVERNMENT can't discriminate against people's religious beliefs and practices.

The Indiana law say that a person has the right to discriminate because of their religious beliefs, AND a Person is defined as a Business, Corporation or natural person.

Second, the states that have adopted the Fed. law also have discrimination protections for LGBTs, the Indiana law does not, so you are able to discriminate against them.

So in other words, Mike Pence is Lying and misleading us about the law.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 31, 2015 - 11:59am PT
I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to morph from politics to metaphysics.

John
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
Next stop...mentalphysics..
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 31, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
Just to add to George Carlin’s words if he was alive today:

They can see you, read and listen as well, in fact they can see where you were yesterday, a month and even 11 months ago.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 31, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
Regarding the Indiana law, It does not say that a person or business can discriminate against gays (or any other group for that matter.) Unless of course you think that a person or business declining to take part in a function or event is discrimination. Those same people or businesses cannot refuse service at their restaurant, flower shop, gym, whatever. There is great precedent there going back to the anti segregation laws of the 1950's - 60's. But since when can the Government compel a person or business to be part of an event to which they are opposed. If that were the case in the 1960's a Black businessman could be compelled to serve food at a KKK rally.

Finally, the law only comes into play in those situations where civil action is taken. Speaking for myself, If I had a wedding coming up, to a member of the same sex, and a deeply religious florist declined to be part of the wedding, turning down a good gig to be true to her beliefs, I'd say thanks and move on. Do you really want your florist to be there by force of law? But in those cases where a lawsuit is filed the new law serves as a guideline to the courts. At least that's my take from the various sources out there (not Fox.)

On a personal note I think that the guys who sued her, possibly destroying a 70 yr. old woman's retirement, are cruel and doing so much more harm her than she did them, if any.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 31, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
There is no legitimate religious reason to discriminate against gays. It's a bullshit excuse for bigotry.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 31, 2015 - 05:46pm PT
It's the Modern day Jim Crow,
it's about protecting the Christian bigot's insecure and convoluted religious beliefs that must be protected by law.

here's the problem, just like what the African Americans suffered - there may be no options open to you in your town, everybody is a good right wing Christian and part of the local KKK.

What we are seeing is pulling the hood off the modern day bigot, and they will deny every charge until pigs fly out their ass.


the original "religious freedom restoration act" was enacted to allow Native Americans to legally use peyote as part of their religious practice.

It was about having the Gov. allow for your religious practices so they were Not Illegal...
There was nothing about a person having icky feelings getting SEPCIAL Privileges because of their religious beliefs, and a Person IS Now a Corporation according to this law.

That's what's it come to, Someone has an icky feeling, so they Now they need to be Protected.


we all know the second that the Satanist's or Muslim's ask for their special discrimination rights, it will all be over.

It was all about giving Right Wing Christians special protection, No One Else....

And Jeb Bush agrees 100%.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 31, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
It's the Modern day Jim Crow,

Yeah, that's why Chuckie Schumer and Teddy Kennedy were instrumental in producing the same federal law in it's federal version and Bill Clinton made a big production out of signing it.

Obama even voted for the Illinois version when in the state legislature in one of the exceptional instances where he actually showed up to cast a vote and didn't vote, "present".

Let's pass a law that Muslims have to serve pork and atheists have to perform baptisms while we are at it.


This is all phony outrage. Something "progressives" have ingrained in their genes.

Hell, No problem with opening an Apple store in a country that hangs gays to slowly strangle from cranes in the public square.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/03/apple-bashes-indiana-but-gladly-does-business-with-countries-that-execute-gays/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 31, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
Crankloon , politard , stoopid cut and paste pussy , yada , yada, yada .....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 31, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
[quote]What Makes Indiana's Religious-Freedom Law Different?
By Garrett Epps

No one, I think, would ever have denied that Maurice Bessinger was a man of faith.
And he wasn’t particularly a “still, small voice” man either; he wanted everybody in earshot to know that slavery had been God’s will, that desegregation was Satan’s work, and the federal government was the Antichrist. God wanted only whites to eat at Bessinger’s six Piggie Park barbecue joints; so His servant Maurice took that fight all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, which in 1968 decided that his religious freedom argument was “patently frivolous.”
Until the day he died, however, Bessinger insisted that he and God were right. His last fight was to preserve the Confederate flag as a symbol of South Carolina. “I want to be known as a hard-working, Christian man that loves God and wants to further (God’s) work throughout the world as I have been doing throughout the last 25 years,” he told his hometown newspaper in 2000.
Growing up in the pre-civil-rights South, I knew a lot of folks like Maurice Bessinger. I didn’t like them much, but I didn’t doubt their sincerity. Why wouldn’t they believe racism was God’s will? We white Southerners heard that message on weekends from the pulpit, on school days from our segregated schools, and every day from our governments. When Richard and Mildred Loving left Virginia to be married, a state trial judge convicted them of violating the Racial Integrity Act. That judge wrote that “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents … The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”
Related Story

Should Corporations Have the Same Religious Freedoms as People?
That’s a good background against which to measure the uproar about the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which was signed into law by Governor Mike Pence last week. I don’t question the religious sincerity of anyone involved in drafting and passing this law. But sincere and faithful people, when they feel the imprimatur of both the law and the Lord, can do very ugly things.
There’s a factual dispute about the new Indiana law. It is called a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” like the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, passed in 1993.* Thus a number of its defenders have claimed it is really the same law. Here, for example, is the Weekly Standard’s John McCormack: “Is there any difference between Indiana's law and the federal law? Nothing significant.” I am not sure what McCormack was thinking; but even my old employer, The Washington Post, seems to believe that if a law has a similar title as another law, they must be identical. “Indiana is actually soon to be just one of 20 states with a version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA,” the Post’s Hunter Schwarz wrote, linking to this map created by the National Conference of State Legislatures.
The problem with this statement is that, well, it’s false. That becomes clear when you read and compare those tedious state statutes. If you do that, you will find that the Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA—and most state RFRAs—do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to “the free exercise of religion.” The federal RFRA doesn’t contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina’s; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.
The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: “A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language.
What these words mean is, first, that the Indiana statute explicitly recognizes that a for-profit corporation has “free exercise” rights matching those of individuals or churches. A lot of legal thinkers thought that idea was outlandish until last year’s decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, in which the Court’s five conservatives interpreted the federal RFRA to give some corporate employers a religious veto over their employees’ statutory right to contraceptive coverage.
Second, the Indiana statute explicitly makes a business’s “free exercise” right a defense against a private lawsuit by another person, rather than simply against actions brought by government. Why does this matter? Well, there’s a lot of evidence that the new wave of “religious freedom” legislation was impelled, at least in part, by a panic over a New Mexico state-court decision, Elane Photography v. Willock. In that case, a same-sex couple sued a professional photography studio that refused to photograph the couple’s wedding. New Mexico law bars discrimination in “public accommodations” on the basis of sexual orientation. The studio said that New Mexico’s RFRA nonetheless barred the suit; but the state’s Supreme Court held that the RFRA did not apply “because the government is not a party.”
Remarkably enough, soon after, language found its way into the Indiana statute to make sure that no Indiana court could ever make a similar decision. Democrats also offered the Republican legislative majority a chance to amend the new act to say that it did not permit businesses to discriminate; they voted that amendment down.
So, let’s review the evidence: by the Weekly Standard’s definition, there’s “nothing significant” about this law that differs from the federal one, and other state ones—except that it has been carefully written to make clear that 1) businesses can use it against 2) civil-rights suits brought by individuals.
Of all the state “religious freedom” laws I have read, this new statute hints most strongly that it is there to be used as a means of excluding gays and same-sex couples from accessing employment, housing, and public accommodations on the same terms as other people. True, there is no actual language that says, All businesses wishing to discriminate in employment, housing, and public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation, please check this “religious objection” box. But, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.”
So—is the fuss over the Indiana law overblown?
No.
The statute shows every sign of having been carefully designed to put new obstacles in the path of equality; and it has been publicly sold with deceptive claims that it is “nothing new.”
Being required to serve those we dislike is a painful price to pay for the privilege of running a business; but the pain exclusion inflicts on its victims, and on society, are far worse than the discomfort the faithful may suffer at having to open their businesses to all.
As the story of Maurice Bessinger shows us, even dressed in liturgical garments, hateful discrimination is still a pig.
* This article originally stated that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act passed in 1990. We regret the error.

This article available online at:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/[/quote]
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
Yes!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
And Btw, a lot of right wing idiots are making Chamberlain-Hitler comparisons.

These same dipshits compared Hussein to Hitler shortly before the Iraq war, and guess what? They were not right.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 2, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
Not!

LAUSANNE, Switzerland — Just hours after the announcement of what the United States characterized as a historic agreement with Iran over its nuclear program, the country’s leading negotiator lashed out at the Obama administration for lying about the details of a tentative framework.

Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif accused the Obama administration of misleading the American people and Congress in a fact sheet it released following the culmination of negotiations with the Islamic Republic.

Zarif bragged in an earlier press conference with reporters that the United States had tentatively agreed to let it continue the enrichment of uranium, the key component in a nuclear bomb, as well as key nuclear research.

Zarif additionally said Iran would have all nuclear-related sanctions lifted once a final deal is signed and that the country would not be forced to shut down any of its currently operating nuclear installations.

Following a subsequent press conference by Secretary of State John Kerry—and release of a administration fact sheet on Iranian concessions—Zarif lashed out on Twitter over what he dubbed lies.

“The solutions are good for all, as they stand,” he tweeted. “There is no need to spin using ‘fact sheets’ so early on.”
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 06:44am PT
TGT posted
Yeah, that's why Chuckie Schumer and Teddy Kennedy were instrumental in producing the same federal law in it's federal version and Bill Clinton made a big production out of signing it.

Completely wrong. The federal bill prevents the federal government from allowing people to exercise their own religious liberties. In this case, one of the primary motivators was Native Americans taking peyote as part of a religious rite. The bills being introduced in states today protect people who want to exercise their religious beliefs ON OTHER PEOPLE which is exactly what segregationists claimed they were doing.

Sadly, none of this legislation is actually necessary since it is still totally legal to discriminate (or, if you're Mike Huckaby, I guess you would discretionate) against gays in most states in our country.


TGT, et al posted:
OBAMA IS FLYING US INTO THE MOUNTAIN JUST LIKE THAT GERMAN SUICIDE GUY (and other absurdly tasteless things)


http://www.vox.com/2015/4/2/8337347/iran-deal-good

The framework deal requires Iran to surrender some crucial components of its nuclear program, in part or even in whole. Here are the highlights:

-Iran will give up about 14,000 of its 20,000 centrifuges
-Iran will give up all but its most rudimentary, outdated centrifuges: its first-generation IR-1s, knock-offs of 1970s European models, are all it gets to keep. It will not be allowed to build or develop newer models.
-Iran will give up 97 percent of its enriched uranium: it will hold on to only 300 kilograms of its 10,000 kilogram stockpile in its current form.
-Iran will destroy or export the core of its plutonium plant at Arak, and replace it with a new core than cannot produce weapons-grade plutonium. It will ship out all spent nuclear fuel.
-Iran would simply not have much of its nuclear program left after all this.

"When I was doing my non-proliferation training at Monterey, this is the type of inspection regime that we would dream up in our heads," he said. "We would hope that this would be the way to actually verify all enrichment programs, but thought that would never be feasible."

"If these are the parameters by which the [final agreement] will be signed, then this is an excellent deal," Stein concluded.

Only in in the conservative echo chamber is a non-proliferation grad student's wet dream considered a "bad deal." If Reagan had gotten this kind of deal FOX news would use it as the benchmark for "complete surrender" for decades to come. Let's see what lengths Republicans are willing to go to to screw it up.

*edit*

Oh hey, shocker. FOX is leading with "Obama got played" and has a clip from their news channel with someone lying through their teeth about the deal.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 07:10am PT
One, they hate anything that makes the President look good.
Two, they want war. A display of US force of any kind. Shoot now, aim later.
Three, It’s the neocons’ war in Iraq that gave Iraq to Iran, paving the way for ISIS.

Why would anyone vote for these idiots?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2015 - 07:32am PT
The critique TGT posted is from the "Free Beacon." No wonder he didn't want to post a link to the source. lol
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 08:34am PT
So what TGT and FOX News is saying is that "Iran is under no circumstances to be trusted unless they say something bad about President Obama."
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 3, 2015 - 09:48am PT
One more reason why you should never vote for any Republican.
They don't represent you, they lie about who they will represent, and that is the 1% and big Corps with big money. They not only will NOT represent you, but they will screw you then blame it on the Dems.

It's all about gaining power by appealing to suckers to vote for them using wedge issues, then just doing a show for these suckers about some BS issue like abortion or gay rights while they rob them from the inside out.

How are those Red States doing anyway?
They suck because of one reason, the suckers put morons in office to govern them. And that's due to a corrupt media that knows how to manipulate the suckers.



Why the House of Representatives Doesn’t Represent Americans


Thom Hartmann Administrator's picture
Mar. 30, 2015 12:20 pm
By Thom Hartmann A...

One of the really weird ironies of politics these days is the huge divergence between what the American people actually want and what the radical right-wingers in Washington actually do. You won’t hear this on Fox So-Called News, but right now the American people are as progressive as they ever have been.

Don’t believe me? Just check the polls.

The Progressive Change Institute recently asked likely 2016 voters about their views on a bunch of big issues, and it turns out that everyday Americans overwhelmingly support some of the most liberal policies around.

71 percent of all Americans support giving all students access to a debt-free college education.

70 percent support expanding Social Security.

71 percent a massive infrastructure spending program aimed at rebuilding out broken roads and bridges and putting people back to work.

59 percent support raising taxes on the wealthy so that millionaires pay the same amount in taxes as they did during the Reagan administration.

77 percent of Americans, support giving every American child free pre-K education.

And the list goes on.

58 percent of Americans support breaking up the big banks.

59 percent, meanwhile, support a basic guaranteed minimum income while a still higher percentage - 70 percent - support the creation of a “Green New Deal” that would see the government invest hundreds of millions of dollars in renewable energy.

Oh, and if that wasn't enough, support on Capitol Hill for the Congressional Progressive Caucus’ annual budget, which would put into place many of these very same liberal policies, is growing.

A full 40 percent of House Democrats supported the CPC budget in 2012, 43 percent supported it in 2013, 44 percent supported it in 2014, and more than half - 51.5 percent support it this year.

In other words, progressive values aren't just popular with everyday Americans - they’re also popular, and increasingly more popular, with one of our two major parties, the Democratic one. But all this begs the question: If more than half of Congressional Democrats and way more than half of all Americans support doing things like expanding Social Security and making college free for all, why aren't those policies becoming law?

Why, in our democracy, is the will of the people not being heard? The answer is both simple and tragic - we no longer actually live in a democracy.

We live in an oligarchy. Thanks to the Supreme Court’s Long War against campaign finance law, the billionaires and economic royalists now have more control over our political system than they have in almost a century. This isn't opinion; it’s objective and quantifiable fact.

A study released last year by political scientists Martin Gilens and Benjamin Page, for example, found the following: A proposed policy change with low support among economically elite Americans (one-out-of-five in favor) is adopted only about 18% of the time while a proposed change with high support (four-out-of-five in favor) is adopted about 45% of the time.

It really is all about money in politics. Since billionaires like Charles and David Koch can now pretty much buy their own politicians, along with billions in advertising and PR, it’s their views that get heard in Congress, and it’s their views that become law. And because real progressive policies so often cut into the power of the rich, they only very rarely become law in this Brave New World of ours.

America has and always will be a progressive nation, but if we don’t do something right now to reign in the corrupting influence of big money, it won’t matter whether 70 percent or 30 percent of Americans want to break up the big banks.

So go to MovetoAmend.org right now to get money out of politics once and for all.
.- See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2015/03/why-house-representatives-doesn%E2%80%99t-represent-americans#sthash.ZmnbqqdD.dpuf
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 10:02am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 11:13am PT
That looks just like actual news!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 11:49am PT
This TGT-esque "comic" was pulled from a pretty hateful Facebook thread:



The logic behind it was so ignorant and mind boggling I knew I had to post it here. I went searching for it and the first google result I got was this:

http://tribuneherald.net/2013/08/23/kkk-wins-lawsuit-against-bakery-for-discrimination/

KKK wins lawsuit against bakery for discrimination

A Georgia court has ruled in favor of Marshall Saxby, the Grand Wizard of a local KKK chapter, in a lawsuit stemming from two years ago when a local bakery denied him service.

The three judge panel concluded unanimously that the bakery had violated civil rights laws by discriminating against Saxby when they refused to sell him a cake for his organization’s annual birthday party.

Elaine Bailey, who owns Bailey Bakeries, refused to bake a cake for the ceremony because it violated her religious beliefs.

Saxby filed the lawsuit claiming that Bailey’s refusal of service was discriminatory against his religious beliefs.

*moonwalks out of the thread*
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
HDDJ,
The 21st century, where actual news can be funnier than cartoons.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-indianas-religious-freedom-law-cannibis-church-20150331-story.html?track=rss
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 3, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
this is such a funny thread.....

lets make sure we save all of this BS for some time, then we can have a discussion, when Iran shoots off its first A-bomb and President Clinton claims its the fault of the republican held house and Bush.

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
lets make sure we save all of this BS for some time, then we can have a discussion, when Iran shoots off its first A-bomb and President Clinton claims its the fault of the republican held house and Bush.

What do you suggest we do?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 3, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
There will be No Nukes for Iran because of Obama.

If we followed the Republicans, we would have started WWIII
and they could still get Nukes since we would Not negotiate with them

and it's still not over, the Repubs can nuke the Obama deal out of spite and to keep they're record of being 100% wrong on everything.

Please try and remember One thing they're were correct about.
Was it invading Iraq?, was it letting the Banksters crash the economy?
was it trickle down? Was it keeping abortion illegal?

You can be assured that the Repubs are wrong (and lying) about Iran just out of consistency.

Yes, in 30 years the Repubs will have a list a mile long that they were 100% wrong about.

There are two sides of every issue:
There is one side that is based on truth and helping people,
the other side works against the side devoted to the people and wants to exploit workers for their gain, they will lie about everything and produce misinformation so to keep the suckers in line.

It's all about the money, one side wants you to use your money to have a happy life,

the money side wants your money, and wants the Gov. money as well, they want it all, and they will do anything to get it, even start a unnecessary war where millions die just to get at it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 3, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
"That looks just like actual news!"

Worth saving for TGT's inevitable cartoon posting later today. And tomorrow. And this weekend. And forever.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 3, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
Guyman wrote: lets make sure we save all of this BS for some time, then we can have a discussion, when Iran shoots off its first A-bomb and President Clinton claims its the fault of the republican held house and Bush.


Really laughable.


Oh...what country is the only one to drop A-bombs on another country?

That same country drop the bombs in very populated areas/cites with many civilian deaths.

Could you please name that country for me Guyman?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
No, no. Iran is the world's leading exporter of weapons.



Crap no that's us.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 3, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
It's Friday so you get a free video!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Then there's the completely fabricated from thin air pizza shop story.

http://victorygirlsblog.com/cbs-employee-alix-bryan-files-fraud-report-against-memories-pizza-in-indiana/#more-28400

The "progressives" have replaced the "social conservatives"

"Kowtow to our view of morality or you'd better keep your mouth shut!"
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 3, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
TGT-

So what you're saying is that you're just trying to stand up for Muslims? Or that the Muslims are the "real problem?" That video is an amazing victim racing pile of garbage. The "giant burkad elephant in the room" is the insanely tiny number of Muslim owned bakeries in this country? It only took one Christian bakery to get a law suit? This is a video completely aimed at people like you who just desperately want someone to tell them that mommy is going to make everything ok.

TGT posted
"Kowtow to our view of morality or you'd better keep your mouth shut!"

So now you're a moral relativist? I think you're so lost in your sea of conservative media that you're not sure which way is up anymore.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 4, 2015 - 08:54am PT
http://no-pasaran.blogspot.co.il/2015/04/ginned-up-outrage-and-navel-gazing.html
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 4, 2015 - 09:47am PT
"That looks just like actual news!"
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 5, 2015 - 05:35am PT
guyman posted
lets make sure we save all of this BS for some time, then we can have a discussion, when Iran shoots off its first A-bomb and President Clinton claims its the fault of the republican held house and Bush.

It's like a whole bunch of things that aren't going to happen rolled up in one sentence!

Also, how much more self fulfilling prophecy can Republicans get about this? US invades Iraq in part to intimidate Iran. Iran looks to start making a bomb to deter US from invading them. US starts threatening Iran more overtly. Iran sees bomb as only protection against war crazed country willing to kill thousands of civilians to satisfy domestic political concerns. US threatens harder.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 5, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
Why Is The GOP So Angry At Everything These Days?
Cruz, Walker, Kirk and—especially—Bolton are furious at the world. Their solution: Declare war on it.

At the end of a week when many paused to reflect during Passover and Easter ceremonies, a question with no real answer seemed to crash into our culture with all the subtlety of a marching band in a funeral parlor: Why do so many Republicans seem so angry all the time at so much around us?

The fury of some like Ted Cruz is understandable. It’s fueled by his massive ego and outsized ambition along with his personal belief that he is so smart and the rest of us are so pedestrian that he can manipulate opinion to win the Republican nomination for president with the support of the mentally ill wing of his party.

“A real president,” Cruz the bombardier said last week, “would stand up and say on the world stage: Under no circumstances will Iran be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons. Iran will either stop or we will stop them.”

Then there is the minor league Cruz, the tough talking, totally in-over-his-head governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, who is running to crack down on the salaries of teachers, cops and firefighters everywhere. Oh, he’ll also teach Iran a good lesson by throwing any deal out the window no matter what other countries might think. Imagine Scotty informing Angela Merkel of his decision while he wears his Cheese-Head Hat.

There are so many others too. There’s the kid who started the pen pal club with the ayatollah, Tom Cotton. There’s the mental midget from Illinois, Mark Kirk, who went right to the basement for his best thought on Iran, claiming that England got a better deal from Hitler than the U.S. got from Teheran. Kirk, not a history major.

But my personal favorite? In this corner, from Baltimore, wearing the costume of a true warrior, locked and loaded and ready to roll, the former Ambassador to the United Nations, John “Bombs Away” Bolton. He took to the Op-Ed page of The New York Times to declare war on Iran. After all, why waste time!

“The inconvenient truth is that only military action…” Field Marshall Bolton wrote, “can accomplish what is required. Time is terribly short, but a strike can still succeed.”

Bolton, of course, is one of the Mensa members who told George W. Bush that it would be swell to go to war in Iraq.

Bolton, of course, is one of the Mensa members who told George W. Bush that it would be swell to go to war in Iraq. Twelve years later things are really going well there.

At least Bolton knows war on a first hand basis. At age 18 he was in South Vietnam where….OH, I’M SORRY…MY MISTAKE…that was another Bolton. That was Dennis Bolton from Bedford, Ind., born two weeks before John Bolton was born in Baltimore in November 1968. Two different young men with two different tales to tell.

Dennis Bolton went to Vietnam. John Bolton who went to Yale. Dennis Bolton was killed near DaNang on April 19, 1967 where he served with the Marines while John Bolton finished his freshman year at New Haven.

In 1967, Bedford had a population of about 13,000. It’s a nice small town where Gene Hackman could have filmed ‘Hoosiers’, one of the great sports films ever. Ten young men from Bedford were killed in Vietnam.

Indiana, of course, is the state where Mike Pence and Republicans in the state legislature spent the week clowning it up over their lost fight to make it harder for some Americans simply to be happy. Make no mistake about it, their war was against same sex marriage and they suffered a TKO when the country turned against them in the snap of a finger, an overnight knock-out delivered with stunning speed. But I digress.

In 1967, Baltimore had a population of about 930,000. It’s a tough town with a lot of different neighborhoods, some dangerous, many working class where Barry Levinson hadn’t made “Diner” yet and HBO hadn’t given us the gift that is “The Wire.” Four hundred and seventeen residents of Baltimore were killed in Vietnam.

Dennis Bolton’s name is on the wall of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington. John Bolton’s name was on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times as well as on the lips of some angry, fevered lunatics whose principal policy option is to fight rather than talk.

Obviously, Bolton never made it to Vietnam. He joined the Maryland National Guard to avoid going to Vietnam and, hey, good for him. At least he served.

Of course, he blamed his absence from combat on the politics of the time. On liberals like Ted Kennedy and others, claiming they had already lost the war by the time he was ready to take on the North Vietnamese Army. I guess that explains the itch, the unfulfilled need, the frustration that guys like Bolton have lived with across the decades.

And today, "Bombs Away" Bolton still has a strong desire to light it up. And according to some pundits he's even considering a run for president. Obviously his platform will remain as unchanged as his thinking: Different time, different dangers, different countries but same selfish solution: Send someone else’s kids to fight and die while Bolton and others play with a lit fuse in a world more dangerous than dynamite.

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