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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2014 - 09:25am PT
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we're all outsiders, Ron...
climbers who come into the Valley and embrace the prevailing view that the climbing should attain "world class" status befitting of the opportunities have done well there...
you don't complain that having been a little league baseball player that you are denied a place on a world series team...
but that is a story of climbers v. climbers, "Valley Uprising" is a story of climbers v. everyone else in the Valley. You're taking up the mantle of "outsider" is a classic climber presumption. You are an outsider to outsiders... attempting to trump the discussion.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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There will never be a mandate to recognize climbers as a special class of privileged users of the parks.
Why not? The movie makes the climbers look like a bunch of ego-driven ball-cuppers. Everyone wants to one up the other guy. It is quite sad that such a personal activity is portrayed like a competition of generations and competition between athletes of that generation. It is true, humans had competitions since the start of history, but I thought for many climbing is a way to compete with yourself. Like the only reason to push it further than the other people did, is because you yourself want to see if YOU are capable. Again, climbing is diverse. Maybe I am over-analazing it here, the movie is supposed to entertain the crowd and give us internet wankers a reason to talk, and that IT DID.
So here are a few things I think the movie missed, suggested and a few random things I found interesting (since it is labeled as a “documentary” I think some things should have been included):
1)The movie skips the whole Sacherer/Pratt era. As I understand they mentored Bridwell?
2)Croft’s link up solo of Astroman/Rostrum is missed. I think it was a giant statement for his day. His other giant link ups in the valley.
3)Southern Belle was a fairly big statement in ground up free climbing. Free climbing on El Cap is limited to L. Hill’s ascent of the Nose. Even though Tommy Caldwell is in the movie, it could have been mentioned that he has free climbed the most walls out of any human. I think it is a giant achievement.
4) Stone Masters suggest the valley changed and became this sold out touron destination. Right after they show a segment about many of them participating in main stream commercials, TV shows etc. Now that’s funny!
5) Suggestion that climbers are somehow superior to the other crowd was quite annoying, but I guess it did help their “plot.” Plus, we all like to think we are special and better than everyone else. : )
6) Honnold and Potter segment was quite entertaining.
7)THE LAST SCENE! First it shows Honnold free soloing the NW Face of Half Dome and suggests that for modern era it is as revolutionary as Royal Robbin’s first ascent of that face in 1957. After that it takes you to El Cap with ‘unknown’ individual (LOL) soloing the Freerider with a base rig. Did other people also get a sense that the movie suggests the next logical step was a free solo of a major El Cap route?? Or did we all already know that?
Overall I enjoyed the movie. Cool to see something about a place we Californians have a chance to frequently enjoy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So I thought it was against Park Service regs to undertake commercial ventures
such as film making in a national park?
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Interesting write up, Ed. I'd like to see the film - I know a lot of work was put into it.
John Long makes the case that climbers are “special” because they actually use the landscape in pursuit of their “lifestyle” choice.
Respectfully, I'd like to hear the defense of that one. Maybe JL can convince those of us who don't think we're "special" and deserving of special treatment. Tough pull, though.
Reminds me of the way some climbers pejoratively use the term tourons. The mix of precious superiority and entitlement baffles me.
As RP3 says, we do get limited forms of special treatment. Last time I topped out HD, I don't remember being required to show a permit.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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The climbers are relating how they felt about the situation- the specialness is not posited as objective reality in any form. That's just the way those climbers felt at the time.
The film is not arguing anything- its a documentary retrospective
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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So I thought it was against Park Service regs to undertake commercial ventures such as film making in a national park?
It was revealing in this regard to find that Plaidman and VegasClimber, having to quit the YPCG Loop D when our time there was up were planning to stay in the same campsite as was occupied by a filming crew who (apparently, but I'm not positive about this) had been there for some time.
The two were planning on sticking around for an attempt on Skull Queen on the Column.
AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU TWO, BTW!
Perhaps the NPS has seen some sort of light emanating from the projector?
Whatever the truth behind the mirrors of cinematographers may be, history is always and always will be the contorted, twisted thing that it has always been.
Any film is the vision of its auteur, not necessarily the "truth." Think of progagandizing and advertising as close kin and you may understand what I am trying to say. You don't advertise the down side to anything when your image is at stake.
And you sometimes are willing to bend over backwards to insure you come out looking and smelling sweet and clean. A designated campsite for such is not a big price to pay and certainly it should be okay to bend a few rules and change them when it becomes advantageous.
I think of Bob Dylan, who said times change. Or sumthin.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Does this once and for all put to rest all the speculation and ramblings about the moreorless uneventful plane crash in 1977.
I feel for Licky.
Say it ain't so Doc H.
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YayP
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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Vitaliy, I like your pointing out no Tommy Caldwell, Croft, etc., but special emphasis on other feats. What I found to be surprising is zero mention of Skinner/Piana free ascent of El Cap. I learned climbing through literature before practice on the rock and found this to be a milestone. Was anyone else surprised there was zero mention of Skinner/Piana free ascent of the Salathe?
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Over analysis. Insightful corrections of the official record by Warbler and interpretation of special access by RP3. Now that we know the.entire script is it ruined for the watching? Good autopsy Ed.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Rampant bolters. Skinner and the Piano guy are shameless. Eff 'em.
That's my take.
Ed, I am intrigued by your take on this filmy thing. No, I'll probably(no goddam "prolly", that is freakin' lazy) never see it. I've lived part of this History....Meh.
I agree with much of your take. Much is some, not all. As it ever is.
Groove on.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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This is about the 10th separate blowhard topic about 'uprising' on here.
I posted early-on that it looked totally whack because of the generalizations made by Sender.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Tom Frost had a sophisticated approach to engage the NPS, he got Camp 4 listed as a Historic Place, a legal and political act that did recognize, within the law, the special nature of that place. He worked with, and sometimes against, the NPS to establish this designation.
Climbers need to become more like Tom.
20 years from now I would like to see a building dedicated to the "Climbing History of Yosemite Valley", possibly at the old gas station site or across the road, on the lodge side.
A few climbers like Tom is fine. Please just one Ed.
If I ever start thinking like Ed, quickly shoot me.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Thank god "outsider status" is still a relevant term pertaining to climbing. The show represents, as many have said, a time and place we are fond of. Money hadn't entered the picture as far as "sponsorship" and climbing's still not on the radar in terms of being a marketable medium like what's happened to surfing. The layman is wowed by shots of Teahupoo but the layman would be hard pressed to understand what's happening if viewing a climber on the B/Y. One can still get the feel in the valley and in Yosemite in general once above the floor. I'm on Quicksilver and I'm in Worral's footsteps! I set out on my own adventure, still there!
The struggle between government and the climber is part of the game and I'm thankful we still have the struggle instead of some park run attraction catering to a sport where the latest clothing line by some climbing "star" is peddled. Man, I hope that never happens. The struggle signifies that climbing is still fairly fringe as a popular sport and in spite of Yosemite being a destination for the activity.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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First world problems.
Though both Ed and Kevin (Warbler) (and others) makes some very good points.
I saw the trailer a couple of months ago. I posted it to non-climbing people. I thought the trailer was "exciting" a bit over-bloated, sensational, but… just a film.
Don't know if I will see it though. I have Operation Petticoat to watch. And Die Hard 7 (Death in the Valley).
EDIT
As a documentarian, we all have an agenda. True, the few documentaries I have made (shorts) are not that great (cough cough, really, not that great), but every documentary maker, every journalist, every storyteller I have met, has their version… and vision.
The task is in storytelling, primarily as a journalist and documentarian, is to try to be as objective as possible. I have failed several times on that.
But the trailer for this "documentary" is enteraining and "exciting". A bit skewered, but what isn't (I am not a cynic, just an eternal optimist).
I think Ed was correct in starting this thread, and most of the comments/posts have made valid points.
But the film is not on my tick list.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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The NPS is spread pretty thin, on a shoestring budget, low pay. Plus, a NPS employee can climb and enjoy it. So, the "conflict" is rather an artificial, overblown thing, in my opinion. But film makers need conflict to tell a story.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Absolutely aspendoughy. A significant amount of NPS employees (today) are climbers. Some of the better "local" climbers I know are NPS employees.
I have not seen the film, and I do understand the history of conflict between climbers and the NPS, but extrapolating that conflict to the present is inflammatory, sensationalist, and unhelpful.
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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BASE jumping seems to be more and more a fixture in the climbing media. It certainly holds attractions for climbers, and many base jumpers are themselves climbers. Both sports are in part fueled by the body’s natural reaction to exposure, and the exultation of fighting to free oneself from jeopardy, however self imposed. Climbing is often required to reach a jump site, while jumping can serve as a descent from a climb, albeit rarely. I believe this is as far as the synergy goes. The skills involved are not transferable, the objectives differ.
The sport of climbing involves ascending a natural feature against gravity. Falling is a part of climbing that signifies failure of an attempt to climb something. Sometimes jumping is used to make a fall safer, as in bouldering. But jumping to the ground for its own sake, although it may be exciting and rewarding, is not part of an ascent and not a legitimate part of climbing. It is a separate sport like surfing, or motorcycle racing, or seeing how long of a fall one can take on a climbing rope. BASE jumping seems to have attached itself to climbing, perhaps trying to gain an aura of “legitimacy” thereby. Or perhaps to add spice, as if climbing is not exciting enough by itself…
When I go to a climbing movie, I enjoy the BASE jumping sequences if they are brief, but in the back of my mind I wonder about the relevance.
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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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i enjoyed the movie. Clearly a filmaker has to make choices as to what they emphasize and the message they want to convey, but I was a little disappointed in the almost total lack of mention of the evolution of women climbers in the Valley. Having been in Camp 4 in the 60's and known many of the top women climbers of the time (all 4 or 5 of them...), and then watching the impact of Bev Johnson, Lynn Hill, Sybille, and those that followed them, I wish that there had been LOT less about Dean Potter (REALLY.....) and his so called impact and a lot more on how women have evolved to become as good as men, and doing the hardest routes. There is a little mention of this in the section dealing with lynn Hill, but there is no real context or broader picture.
Basically, although I really liked the movie, I thought that it celebrated soloing and jumping and slacklining far too much, at the expense of a better balanced picture of how really hard climbing evolved (for both men and women), and how the boldness of the earlier pioneers has been preserved by the modern generation. Slacklining, jumping and free soloing are scary and flashy, and interest many, but from my perspective, do little to enhance or further the sport of climbing. I can see any arguments as to why in Yosemite, anyway, they actually hurt climbing a great deal.
I would love to see a Tee shirt with a devilish face of Warren Harding and the text "Batso made me do it" or something similar.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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John Long makes the case that climbers are “special” because they actually use the landscape in pursuit of their “lifestyle” choice.
Respectfully, I'd like to hear the defense of that one. Maybe JL can convince those of us who don't think we're "special" and deserving of special treatment. Tough pull, though
An impossible pull, actually. And not something I ever said. When reviewing narratives, it helps to avoid introjecting your own biasis onto the material. But it usually takes a pro to do so.
Never said or made the case that we were "special," bettter than, or that all others in Yosemite (or elsewhere) were less than us climbers. What I was driving at is that while most people visit the park to look and enjoy, climbers come there to USE the place to their specific ends, often finding completion on the cliffside. This gives us the feeling or sense of a unique relationship with the environment not shared by others driving through in an RV - and no harm in that.
Again, climbing doesn not, perforce, make us special, or some favored nation of people for which the Valley is beholden. "Special" as used by Ed implies a kind of "I'm better than you" attitude, for so and so reasons - and you'd have to talk to Ed per where that comes from.
One of the things I have noticed is that when ANYONE is placed in the spotlight, there are a cross section of people who automatically feel less-than, a feeling or belief they attribute to those in the limelight. That's just part of the volatile emotional reactions people have to the business of showing people on camera.
My comment about the rangers is something that was pointed out to me by my cousin, Roger Rudolph, who was Chief Backcountry Ranger during my early years in the Park. The rengers felt like they were being responsible and worthy citizens doing a public service and holding down a job and managing the park. But their efforts, most believed, would never survive history becasue they were simply doing their job quietlyh and annonymously.
Meanwhile many dirt bag climbers were living like feral animals and breaking all the rules and some of these would make history and it just didn't seem fair to the rangers. It used to "piss them off." That's not an evaluation, but simple reporting.
Lastly, the whole rebel thing is true for some and not so for others. If you value a conforming, staid, low-key kind of personality, the rebel will seem obnoxious. If you are rebellious for whatever reason(s), the low-key folk will likely bore you and feel like posers. There is no better or worse, despite all eforts to elevate one type or personality style over the other. There are merely perspectives, and a diversity of people.
While one can pot shot the film and isoloate out those who conform to your favored exestential style, I have always believed that the climbing world was big enough for all commers, and have personally enjoyed the diversity found therein. Wishing a rebel like Dean Potter was more like awe-shucks Alex Honnold is to me a vain attempt to wish that this was rather like that because that's how I like my climbers. Wheresas to me, the climbing world was the one place where we could all go and escapt those kinds of judgements. So to see them trotted back out here, masquerading as sober criticism and humble, honest evaluations is rather dissapointing.
That much said, my own biais is that I've never appreciated someone telling me how I should be. So when Ed suggegested I (and all other climbrs) should be "more like Tom" Frost (who Ed describes as "sophisticated"), I bristled. Ed goes on to use the example of Tom using his sophisticated personality and approach with the Park Service to get Camp 4 declared and preserved as a very special place celebrating climbers and their historically spcial relation to to the Valley and their special achievements on the cliffs. Or rather, he got the Park Service to designate Camp 4 as a National Landmark owing to it's sameness with all the other camps sits in the Valley, as used by an average group of people who accomplishd normal things on the routine and entirely pedestrian cliffs seen in just another National Park.
JL
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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If you do, you will end up way to heavy and will fall off all your climbs ......
Ha Ha!
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