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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
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“Valley Uprising”
I got to see the video, finally, in the relatively staid atmosphere of the theatre, not the more raucous auditorium. The movie is a retelling of the history of climbing in Yosemite Valley, but as a particular narrative which traces the arc of “Edenic” periods followed by the inevitable casting out from Eden.
The video has to abbreviate the history, Half Dome is climbed in 1957 by Royal Robbins, El Capitan in 1958 by Warren Harding setting up the “Golden Era” and the competition between Robbins and Harding. This first era comes to the end in 1970 with Harding’s ascent of the Wall of the Early Morning Light which was partially chopped by Robbins. We are told they never climb in the Valley again… the end of the Golden Era.
This leads nearly directly into the “Stonemasters” period lead by Jim Bridwell, a psychedelic ringmaster of a band of climbers who show up in the Valley and push the limits of climbing (and everything else). The Stonemasters surpass the accomplishments of the Golden Era with the notable one day ascent of The Nose in 1975.
The Stonemasters also encounter an apparently hostile environment, and are in conflict with the park rangers. This is a part of the counter culture and, oddly, the 1970 “riot” in Stoneman Meadow (which the climbers were not a part of) is used to illustrate the cultural clash between the “establishment” and the “counter culture.” A further illustration is the crash of the plane carrying bushels of weed, and the subsequent salvage by the climbers before the NPS got out to the site.
Impressive progress in pushing climbing ends in a fist fight over style in 1988, when Chapman punches out Bachar…
The next “epoch” begins with Dean Potter’s arrival in the Valley in 1995 and the “Stone Monkeys” take up where the “Stonemasters” left off… pushing the boundaries even more. This not only includes incredible climbing, but also BASE jumping and slacklining. In a twist I didn’t see coming at all, Chongo is the “Yoda” of the Stone Monkeys, revered for his ability to apparently stay in the Valley beyond the reach of the NPS law enforcement and with no visible means of support.
The basic fantasy of the climbers, going back into the early sixties (and probably even before then), is that somehow the Valley would be a wilderness domain in which all the tourists would be banished, or at least required to endure the physical tests of journeying to the Valley without cars, etc… and that the Valley would then revert back to a wilderness not requiring the management of the NPS or any other organization. In such a scenario, the climbers believe that they could practice climbing free from the over bearing constraints of a federal bureaucracy and the need to share this unique place with people who could not visit without that vast bureaucratically provided access.
John Long makes the case that climbers are “special” because they actually use the landscape in pursuit of their “lifestyle” choice. Many times the video makes the point that climbers risk their very lives in pursuit of an essentially unjustifiable (to the “establishment”) end. Dean Potter pleads that he just wants to practice his Art.
Interestingly, Alex Honnold is quoted as saying, in his rather quiet way, that he wants to climb in the Valley as much as possible and he understands that he has to share it with the other 4 million people that visit each year… so he figures out how to accommodate the rules. He doesn’t claim to be special, but he is, arguably, the most special climber in the video.
But the “specialness” argument is dead on arrival.
The very creation of the United States is based on equality. There is no special status, we are all equal under the law. So it doesn’t really matter if we risk our lives for some noble idea in Yosemite Valley, whether it be spiritual or artistic or anything else.
And there in lay, potentially, a more interesting and nuanced “history” of the Valley, more sophisticated than the climbers v. the rangers, a tired tale told so long, and actually not really supportable by the various justifications offered in the video, John Long again: “they (the rangers) were pissed because history would remember the climbers for their feats and ignore the rangers as they did nothing of significance.” Really?
Equality under the law does not observe “specialness” expressed as either privilege or persecution. And while the climbers have no grounds to claim a privileged status, they certainly seem to be under persecution in the Valley. Profiling climbers, pulling cars over and interrogating the occupants broadly (we all know the drill, and can probably recite what the rangers are going to ask); “driving under suspicion of being a climber.”
While the “law” regulating 7 days in the Valley may have a logical justification, do we actually know that it is enforced uniformly for all visitors? Are visitors at the Lodge or the Ahwahnee Hotel subject to the same restrictions? The idea is to free up space for other visitors to enjoy the Valley, after all. What distinguishes “visitors” from concession employees? especially in a “wilderness” setting.
Climbers aren’t special, and neither is anyone else. Yet we are all aware that some people are treated specially, with privilege. Who hasn’t observed the unmolested Winnebago with out of state plates parked on a turnout overnight. When I had the VW Vanagon, I was regularly quizzed: “where did you sleep last night?” “where are you going to sleep tonight?” “how many beers have you drunk?” etc… maybe I looked like a climber.
Tom Frost had a sophisticated approach to engage the NPS, he got Camp 4 listed as a Historic Place, a legal and political act that did recognize, within the law, the special nature of that place. He worked with, and sometimes against, the NPS to establish this designation.
Climbers need to become more like Tom.
Another way to look at the history of the Valley during the period covered in the video would be to see the governance of the Valley. In particular, the judicial branch headed by the U.S. Magistrate and the executive branch by the Superintendent. In our system of government, these branches balance each other. The rangers, and the law enforcement policy, is executed by the Superintendent. Challenges to the effects of the policy, individuals seeking redress to persecution, proceeds through the court.
During the modern era the chronological list looks like this:
remarkably, there were only 2 U.S. Magistrates that sat in the court from 1942 through 1993, Gene Ottonello and Donald Pitts, a time that saw 11 Superintendents. It would be worth pursuing the history of the court findings, especially with regard to climbers and what the rangers were allowed to do and what they were not allowed, by court ruling. The interactions are more subtle, and the nature of the court often determines what cases are brought and what are dropped. The longevity of the Magistrates certainly provided the law enforcement with a well known expectation of what they could and couldn’t do.
It could be that the “Golden Age” and the “Stonemasters” actually benefitted from the Magistrates. Wouldn’t that be interesting.
Recently, the terms of the U.S. Magistrates seem to be getting shorter, and that fact might be an interesting factor in how the balances in the Valley are maintained, or not. But my point is that the social dynamic in the park has broader influences than our old story, as much fun as it is to be an “outlaw” we really just want to climb as much as we can there.
Anecdotally, I was told that after the Camp 4 designation, the Superintendent was receptive to increasing the length of stay for climbers. The incivility of the climbers changed his mind. Another story had it that “back in the day” the stay limit was applied to “trouble makers” and ignored for others. Both stories run contrary to the uniform application of the rules, the laws, there should be no “privilege” there should be no “persecution.”
The only way we climbers can influence what actually happens in the Valley is to get involved in it, a civic responsibility to understand the laws, our responsibilities and our rights. This is a drag for someone who is young and relatively naive, but there are enough of us older climbers who could be involved, who have some time, and more importantly, have the expertise. The climbers have just as much access to the Superintendent as anyone else, I wonder how often they use it. The climbers could get much more involved in the governance of the park, it is a wonder that they do not. The FaceLift is an example of how we might approach the issues of climber/ranger interactions.
While “Valley Uprising” was very entertaining, it ultimately fails to point the way to realizing its goal. One can violate the law, but one could also try to understand that law and harness it, and perhaps even change it or its enforcement.
The NPS’s mission is huge and often contradictory, it has to execute that mission with resources that are challenged by the prioritization of other federal programs. There will never be a mandate to recognize climbers as a special class of privileged users of the parks.
The sooner we can recognize that, the sooner we can get on with making the parks a better place.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 30, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
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Thankfully, there are alot of places to climb that are not yosemite valley.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 30, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
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Cool post, Ed!
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Wow Ed, great perspective. I like how your review segued into your own view, & then ideas as to how what so many hold dear, could become possibly a better place.
Thanks for taking the time to put that together.
As someone who has not seen the film yet, I'm enjoying all the reviews shared on ST.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I just saw the film tonight and enjoyed it.
Especially the way they worked in most of the great images from Yosemite Climber and from Ken Yager's archive collection.
The TV footage of Harding (and network news anchors David Brinkley and Walter Cronkite mentioning the Dawn Wall) and later Bachar was a riot - I wonder who obtained that?
And little stuff like the clip of Beth Rodden on Meltdown, which was not a direct subject of the time period, but was cool to see.
The slide animations were a nice improvement over the preview version from last year.
I don't take the climber/ranger conflict theme very seriously. It is dependent on the individual ranger. If they are a jerk, complain about them to their boss. Most of the rangers I've interacted with (on traffic stops) have been excellent. Although I haven't been driving a van. :-)
If it was important to me for base jumping to be legal, I might have a different view. Randomly, I just saw the "top ten BASE jumping fails" video on youtube today. It promised "Nobody was killed during the making of this film", but showed several fatalities.... Not entirely unexpected, though.
The 7 day camping limit is something I wasn't really aware of. I suspect it is a method for keeping people from monopolizing campground reservations in the summer. It seems there has been a 14 day camping limit since the 60s that has not been actively enforced. Personally, I don't care, because I don't like staying in campgrounds. But it could be a problem if you are a good climber and want to spend 1-2 seasons a year in the valley. It seems the answer is to develop low profile camping options like driving outside the park boundary. If you want to stay in the campgrounds you will have to give other people a chance to use them....
It is an inherent conflict in the national park system. To keep the valley a nice "uncrowded" place, you stop people from trampling/burning the entire valley floor (fully unregulated camping) so you limit camping areas. But it means not everyone can camp there who wants to.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Donald Pitts!
Now, there's a "special person" indeed.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nice analysis Ed Hartouni.
I picked up some of the same points. The movie's narrative is a simple one of climbers practicing their art through the years and how the very nature of their art/sport, when taken to extremes, creates conflicts with park authorities. The movie celebrates the outlaw, anti-authority aspect of what climbers get up to.
It does this in style. If the storyline can be criticized as simplistic, it's still streets ahead of whatever narrative arc exists in most climbing movies.
And yet, and yet.... The two climbers who have, arguably, done the most impressive Yosemite Valley feats of recent years, Hill and Honnold, don't fit this outlaw image at all.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there, say, ed... wow... say, i will have to come back to read this...
but say, i really appreciate this...
good to read... will post again, after i read it...
thanks so very very much for the trouble to do this... wow... :)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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So important for Ed to have a separate post for this movie event that I must say something of BITD.
The Good Old Boys said, "American: Love it or Leave it" and some boys even went to Canada.
Well it just so happened one day down at the mine [Homestake Gold Mine, Lead SD] that a stout looking good ol' boy said "America Love It or Leave It" to my HipWeed friend (circa 1974) who retorted quickly, "America Love It or Change It".
The politics of change have been around since the Declaration of I and long before but not such a culture so immersed in drugs that there is no motivation to work the channels for change was apparent when watching and briefly living in the Camp 4. I very quickly left #4 and went to Upper Pines with the WY and Montana Contingency.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Looking forward to seeing it, thanks Ed for the thoughtful post.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Very interesting, thoughtful, review-resolve-call to action, Ed!
I can't wait to see this!
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Very astute analysis, Ed.
If the storyline can be criticized as simplistic, it's still streets ahead of whatever narrative arc exists in most climbing movies.
+1 what crunch said.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Damnit Ed.
Seeing it 2nd week in Oct,
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mastadon
Trad climber
crack addict
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Bruce Morris,
Pitts was definitely part of the valley lore. I read about his passing in the Mariposa newspaper this summer and had no idea of some of his accomplishments.
2014-08-07 / Obituaries
Donald William Pitts
Born in Madison, S.D. on April 15, 1928, Don William Pitts showed early signs of his independent nature when he traveled alone on the train from his birthplace to join his parents in California at the age of 13.
He passed away on July 31,2014 in Fresno. He was 86.
Pitts was a pre-med major at UCLA, then joined the U.S. Army as a paratrooper, only to be drawn by his love of the mountains to obtain a degree in logging engineering from Oregon State. He served three seasons as a smoke jumper and worked as a forester before attending Boalt Law School at UC Berkeley to start a career in law.
Don worked in the district attorney’s office in Porterville and then in Fresno, established a private practice, found time be a scoutmaster and to raise four children, all before being appointed the Federal Magistrate Judge for Yosemite National Park in 1975. Soon after becoming a judge, he married Kay Keim Tolladay. Kay was the love of Don’s life, and he the love of hers.
In his 18 years on the federal bench, “the Judge” was known for his skepticism for the well-fashioned fabrication, for his kindness to court neophytes and for his “Bailiff”—a 160 pound Rottweiler who often accompanied him to court. In addition to his love for Kay and his family, hiking, skiing and Yosemite National Park, one of Don's great joys in life was performing weddings.
During his years in Yosemite, Don established the cross-country skiing division of the Yosemite Winter Club. Generations of cross-country skiers finished an Ostrander Hut or trans-Sierra ski trip in Don and Kay’s wine-barrel hot tub.
Because he was a true “mountain man,” even retirement could not persuade Don to leave his beloved Yosemite. Add that to his natural hospitality and Don’s final career choice seemed obvious. He and Kay built a bed-and-breakfast business, the Yosemite Peregrine, which they successfully ran from 1994 until 2011.
Don is survived by his beloved wife, Kay Tolladay Pitts, his children Donald P. Pitts and wife Roberta Jue of Petaluma, Linda Tolladay and husband Mark Graves of Clovis, Michaela Pitts of Ukiah, Laura Tolladay of Roseville, Anne Acuna of San Francisco, Eric Tolladay and wife Teri Davis-Tolladay of Valley Village, Robert Pitts and wife Nickol of Ahwahnee, 12 grandchildren and 5 great-grandchildren. He is also survived by his brother, Dale Pitts of Yucaipa and sister MaryAnn Block of Evansville, Ind.
Don’s celebration of life will be held at 4 p.m. on Friday, August 8, 2014, at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Fresno, 2672 E. Alluvial.
Remembrances can be made to KVPT (Valley Public Television), Restore Hetch-Hetchy or the Unitarian Universalist Church of Fresno.
Pitts wasn't the one you needed to be wary of, this was the one you needed to be careful around:
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Excellent post, Ed.
The interesting thing to me is that climbers already DO receive special treatment by the NPS that other user groups do not enjoy. Climbers are allowed to camp in wilderness (on walls) without a permit and they are allowed to install fixed metal anchors on cliffs, even if those cliffs are in wilderness! NO other user group has privileges such as these.
Most of the climbers who complain about poor treatment are not following the objective rules that are in place to protect the resource. OB camping, driving while intoxicated, and mouthing off to other visitors or authority figures is poor behavior, wherever you are and whatever sport you are pursuing.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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The interesting thing to me is that climbers already DO receive special treatment by the NPS that other user groups do not enjoy.
The reason: climbing is an old activity, stretching back to the days of Muir. Climbing was seen as an entirely appropriate activity for wilderness areas and national parks. Sort of an extension of hiking into steeper terrain. Especially back then, climbing was an activity that was human-powered, with little reliance on equipment and left little trace. Very few "fixed anchors" were left on the rock up until the last few decades. At this point climbing on El Cap (which is technically a "wilderness" despite its crowds and roadside access) is grandfathered in.
It was a stroke of genius for Tom Frost, building on the long and respected history of climbing in Yosemite, to come up with placing Camp 4 on the List of Historic Places.
BASE jumping, biking, slacklining, rope-swinging; all these and many more are highly gear dependent. They are also very newly invented sports. They are not seen as appropriate for wilderness (they do nothing to promote wilderness values, like solitude and quiet contemplation) and suffer all kinds of bans. Though, had folks been parachuting off El Cap back in the 1920s, BASE would likely be legal now.
Sport climbing, with heavy bolting, crowding, etc is entirely inappropriate for wilderness. Has sport climbing arrived, fully formed, without the existence of trad climbing, it too would be banned.
Some land managers have been trying to establish rules that can differentiate, banning particular aspects of sport climbing (e.g. placing bolts with a motorized drill) while allowing "climbing" to continue.
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WBraun
climber
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The film is supposed to be entertainment.
Try not to get so all deep and heavy into it.
If you do, you will end up way to heavy and will fall off all your climbs ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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...well, one can have entertainment that evokes thoughts, too, WBraun, denying one's nature is another way to fall off of things.
Speaking of which, another interesting aspect of the video was that treatment of the "other side" of climbing, that which we defy, apparently, in pursuit of our sport and that injects the danger there.
Obviously Sender Films has to be tread carefully, as the spectacle of solo climbing, popularized now in video, is not usually something that benefits from the external pressures of maintaining celebrity and fame.
I'm talking about falling off of the cliffs and being injured or dying.
Bachar's death was treated as a mere footnote "...fell off a climb at age 52," the only recognition of the dangers of climbing, though there was the nearly breathless statements of Hill explaining that "there is no margin in soloing."
Yet, somehow, the fraction of climbers seriously injured or killed climbing in Yosemite Valley is small compared to the numbers engaged in climbing. Dean says he is compelled to "push the boundaries" yet the boundaries remain relatively undefined. There are not many who exceed them, apparently.
Climbers have yet to fully explain soloing, we all do it but we don't all talk about it, one wonders why. John Long's short story "The Only Blasphemy" is an interesting attempt, though I think misunderstood by readers who thrill with the narrow avoidance of death depicted therein. How do we reconcile that thrill with the title?
Climbing is the balance of forces, the attraction of gravity against the resistance provided by our attachments to the rock, be they edges or friction. When jumping, add our resistance moving in a fluid, when walking, the equilibrium of our centers-of-gravity over the line. Upsetting these balances and we are either plunged to the ground, or walking harmlessly on its horizontal extent.
Our mastery is no protection against the loss of balance.
It is another aspect of climbing that we tend to avoid dwelling on, yet is so integral to the activity.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2014 - 09:16am PT
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Last year at the "Oakdale Climber's Festival" there was a "roundtable" discussion on the Camp 4 designation with Tom and Dick and park representatives, etc...
My point above is that we older climbers, having moved on with our careers, either have the expertise of Dick or know some climber that does... this expertise is critical in addressing these issues. While our youthful passions often burn on into our old age, we acquire the ability to use that energy to productively engage in change.
Some might call it compromise, we all would have when we were young, but the Camp 4 designation is an example of what could be done.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Hey Ron, Valley Uprising is showing tomorrow, Oct 2, at High Altitude Fitness in Incline, 7:00pm. You should come on up. As a member, I can comp you if you do. We'll watch it together!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2014 - 09:25am PT
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we're all outsiders, Ron...
climbers who come into the Valley and embrace the prevailing view that the climbing should attain "world class" status befitting of the opportunities have done well there...
you don't complain that having been a little league baseball player that you are denied a place on a world series team...
but that is a story of climbers v. climbers, "Valley Uprising" is a story of climbers v. everyone else in the Valley. You're taking up the mantle of "outsider" is a classic climber presumption. You are an outsider to outsiders... attempting to trump the discussion.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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There will never be a mandate to recognize climbers as a special class of privileged users of the parks.
Why not? The movie makes the climbers look like a bunch of ego-driven ball-cuppers. Everyone wants to one up the other guy. It is quite sad that such a personal activity is portrayed like a competition of generations and competition between athletes of that generation. It is true, humans had competitions since the start of history, but I thought for many climbing is a way to compete with yourself. Like the only reason to push it further than the other people did, is because you yourself want to see if YOU are capable. Again, climbing is diverse. Maybe I am over-analazing it here, the movie is supposed to entertain the crowd and give us internet wankers a reason to talk, and that IT DID.
So here are a few things I think the movie missed, suggested and a few random things I found interesting (since it is labeled as a “documentary” I think some things should have been included):
1)The movie skips the whole Sacherer/Pratt era. As I understand they mentored Bridwell?
2)Croft’s link up solo of Astroman/Rostrum is missed. I think it was a giant statement for his day. His other giant link ups in the valley.
3)Southern Belle was a fairly big statement in ground up free climbing. Free climbing on El Cap is limited to L. Hill’s ascent of the Nose. Even though Tommy Caldwell is in the movie, it could have been mentioned that he has free climbed the most walls out of any human. I think it is a giant achievement.
4) Stone Masters suggest the valley changed and became this sold out touron destination. Right after they show a segment about many of them participating in main stream commercials, TV shows etc. Now that’s funny!
5) Suggestion that climbers are somehow superior to the other crowd was quite annoying, but I guess it did help their “plot.” Plus, we all like to think we are special and better than everyone else. : )
6) Honnold and Potter segment was quite entertaining.
7)THE LAST SCENE! First it shows Honnold free soloing the NW Face of Half Dome and suggests that for modern era it is as revolutionary as Royal Robbin’s first ascent of that face in 1957. After that it takes you to El Cap with ‘unknown’ individual (LOL) soloing the Freerider with a base rig. Did other people also get a sense that the movie suggests the next logical step was a free solo of a major El Cap route?? Or did we all already know that?
Overall I enjoyed the movie. Cool to see something about a place we Californians have a chance to frequently enjoy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So I thought it was against Park Service regs to undertake commercial ventures
such as film making in a national park?
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Interesting write up, Ed. I'd like to see the film - I know a lot of work was put into it.
John Long makes the case that climbers are “special” because they actually use the landscape in pursuit of their “lifestyle” choice.
Respectfully, I'd like to hear the defense of that one. Maybe JL can convince those of us who don't think we're "special" and deserving of special treatment. Tough pull, though.
Reminds me of the way some climbers pejoratively use the term tourons. The mix of precious superiority and entitlement baffles me.
As RP3 says, we do get limited forms of special treatment. Last time I topped out HD, I don't remember being required to show a permit.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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The climbers are relating how they felt about the situation- the specialness is not posited as objective reality in any form. That's just the way those climbers felt at the time.
The film is not arguing anything- its a documentary retrospective
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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So I thought it was against Park Service regs to undertake commercial ventures such as film making in a national park?
It was revealing in this regard to find that Plaidman and VegasClimber, having to quit the YPCG Loop D when our time there was up were planning to stay in the same campsite as was occupied by a filming crew who (apparently, but I'm not positive about this) had been there for some time.
The two were planning on sticking around for an attempt on Skull Queen on the Column.
AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU TWO, BTW!
Perhaps the NPS has seen some sort of light emanating from the projector?
Whatever the truth behind the mirrors of cinematographers may be, history is always and always will be the contorted, twisted thing that it has always been.
Any film is the vision of its auteur, not necessarily the "truth." Think of progagandizing and advertising as close kin and you may understand what I am trying to say. You don't advertise the down side to anything when your image is at stake.
And you sometimes are willing to bend over backwards to insure you come out looking and smelling sweet and clean. A designated campsite for such is not a big price to pay and certainly it should be okay to bend a few rules and change them when it becomes advantageous.
I think of Bob Dylan, who said times change. Or sumthin.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Does this once and for all put to rest all the speculation and ramblings about the moreorless uneventful plane crash in 1977.
I feel for Licky.
Say it ain't so Doc H.
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YayP
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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Vitaliy, I like your pointing out no Tommy Caldwell, Croft, etc., but special emphasis on other feats. What I found to be surprising is zero mention of Skinner/Piana free ascent of El Cap. I learned climbing through literature before practice on the rock and found this to be a milestone. Was anyone else surprised there was zero mention of Skinner/Piana free ascent of the Salathe?
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Over analysis. Insightful corrections of the official record by Warbler and interpretation of special access by RP3. Now that we know the.entire script is it ruined for the watching? Good autopsy Ed.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Rampant bolters. Skinner and the Piano guy are shameless. Eff 'em.
That's my take.
Ed, I am intrigued by your take on this filmy thing. No, I'll probably(no goddam "prolly", that is freakin' lazy) never see it. I've lived part of this History....Meh.
I agree with much of your take. Much is some, not all. As it ever is.
Groove on.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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This is about the 10th separate blowhard topic about 'uprising' on here.
I posted early-on that it looked totally whack because of the generalizations made by Sender.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Tom Frost had a sophisticated approach to engage the NPS, he got Camp 4 listed as a Historic Place, a legal and political act that did recognize, within the law, the special nature of that place. He worked with, and sometimes against, the NPS to establish this designation.
Climbers need to become more like Tom.
20 years from now I would like to see a building dedicated to the "Climbing History of Yosemite Valley", possibly at the old gas station site or across the road, on the lodge side.
A few climbers like Tom is fine. Please just one Ed.
If I ever start thinking like Ed, quickly shoot me.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Thank god "outsider status" is still a relevant term pertaining to climbing. The show represents, as many have said, a time and place we are fond of. Money hadn't entered the picture as far as "sponsorship" and climbing's still not on the radar in terms of being a marketable medium like what's happened to surfing. The layman is wowed by shots of Teahupoo but the layman would be hard pressed to understand what's happening if viewing a climber on the B/Y. One can still get the feel in the valley and in Yosemite in general once above the floor. I'm on Quicksilver and I'm in Worral's footsteps! I set out on my own adventure, still there!
The struggle between government and the climber is part of the game and I'm thankful we still have the struggle instead of some park run attraction catering to a sport where the latest clothing line by some climbing "star" is peddled. Man, I hope that never happens. The struggle signifies that climbing is still fairly fringe as a popular sport and in spite of Yosemite being a destination for the activity.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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First world problems.
Though both Ed and Kevin (Warbler) (and others) makes some very good points.
I saw the trailer a couple of months ago. I posted it to non-climbing people. I thought the trailer was "exciting" a bit over-bloated, sensational, but… just a film.
Don't know if I will see it though. I have Operation Petticoat to watch. And Die Hard 7 (Death in the Valley).
EDIT
As a documentarian, we all have an agenda. True, the few documentaries I have made (shorts) are not that great (cough cough, really, not that great), but every documentary maker, every journalist, every storyteller I have met, has their version… and vision.
The task is in storytelling, primarily as a journalist and documentarian, is to try to be as objective as possible. I have failed several times on that.
But the trailer for this "documentary" is enteraining and "exciting". A bit skewered, but what isn't (I am not a cynic, just an eternal optimist).
I think Ed was correct in starting this thread, and most of the comments/posts have made valid points.
But the film is not on my tick list.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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The NPS is spread pretty thin, on a shoestring budget, low pay. Plus, a NPS employee can climb and enjoy it. So, the "conflict" is rather an artificial, overblown thing, in my opinion. But film makers need conflict to tell a story.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Absolutely aspendoughy. A significant amount of NPS employees (today) are climbers. Some of the better "local" climbers I know are NPS employees.
I have not seen the film, and I do understand the history of conflict between climbers and the NPS, but extrapolating that conflict to the present is inflammatory, sensationalist, and unhelpful.
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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BASE jumping seems to be more and more a fixture in the climbing media. It certainly holds attractions for climbers, and many base jumpers are themselves climbers. Both sports are in part fueled by the body’s natural reaction to exposure, and the exultation of fighting to free oneself from jeopardy, however self imposed. Climbing is often required to reach a jump site, while jumping can serve as a descent from a climb, albeit rarely. I believe this is as far as the synergy goes. The skills involved are not transferable, the objectives differ.
The sport of climbing involves ascending a natural feature against gravity. Falling is a part of climbing that signifies failure of an attempt to climb something. Sometimes jumping is used to make a fall safer, as in bouldering. But jumping to the ground for its own sake, although it may be exciting and rewarding, is not part of an ascent and not a legitimate part of climbing. It is a separate sport like surfing, or motorcycle racing, or seeing how long of a fall one can take on a climbing rope. BASE jumping seems to have attached itself to climbing, perhaps trying to gain an aura of “legitimacy” thereby. Or perhaps to add spice, as if climbing is not exciting enough by itself…
When I go to a climbing movie, I enjoy the BASE jumping sequences if they are brief, but in the back of my mind I wonder about the relevance.
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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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i enjoyed the movie. Clearly a filmaker has to make choices as to what they emphasize and the message they want to convey, but I was a little disappointed in the almost total lack of mention of the evolution of women climbers in the Valley. Having been in Camp 4 in the 60's and known many of the top women climbers of the time (all 4 or 5 of them...), and then watching the impact of Bev Johnson, Lynn Hill, Sybille, and those that followed them, I wish that there had been LOT less about Dean Potter (REALLY.....) and his so called impact and a lot more on how women have evolved to become as good as men, and doing the hardest routes. There is a little mention of this in the section dealing with lynn Hill, but there is no real context or broader picture.
Basically, although I really liked the movie, I thought that it celebrated soloing and jumping and slacklining far too much, at the expense of a better balanced picture of how really hard climbing evolved (for both men and women), and how the boldness of the earlier pioneers has been preserved by the modern generation. Slacklining, jumping and free soloing are scary and flashy, and interest many, but from my perspective, do little to enhance or further the sport of climbing. I can see any arguments as to why in Yosemite, anyway, they actually hurt climbing a great deal.
I would love to see a Tee shirt with a devilish face of Warren Harding and the text "Batso made me do it" or something similar.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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John Long makes the case that climbers are “special” because they actually use the landscape in pursuit of their “lifestyle” choice.
Respectfully, I'd like to hear the defense of that one. Maybe JL can convince those of us who don't think we're "special" and deserving of special treatment. Tough pull, though
An impossible pull, actually. And not something I ever said. When reviewing narratives, it helps to avoid introjecting your own biasis onto the material. But it usually takes a pro to do so.
Never said or made the case that we were "special," bettter than, or that all others in Yosemite (or elsewhere) were less than us climbers. What I was driving at is that while most people visit the park to look and enjoy, climbers come there to USE the place to their specific ends, often finding completion on the cliffside. This gives us the feeling or sense of a unique relationship with the environment not shared by others driving through in an RV - and no harm in that.
Again, climbing doesn not, perforce, make us special, or some favored nation of people for which the Valley is beholden. "Special" as used by Ed implies a kind of "I'm better than you" attitude, for so and so reasons - and you'd have to talk to Ed per where that comes from.
One of the things I have noticed is that when ANYONE is placed in the spotlight, there are a cross section of people who automatically feel less-than, a feeling or belief they attribute to those in the limelight. That's just part of the volatile emotional reactions people have to the business of showing people on camera.
My comment about the rangers is something that was pointed out to me by my cousin, Roger Rudolph, who was Chief Backcountry Ranger during my early years in the Park. The rengers felt like they were being responsible and worthy citizens doing a public service and holding down a job and managing the park. But their efforts, most believed, would never survive history becasue they were simply doing their job quietlyh and annonymously.
Meanwhile many dirt bag climbers were living like feral animals and breaking all the rules and some of these would make history and it just didn't seem fair to the rangers. It used to "piss them off." That's not an evaluation, but simple reporting.
Lastly, the whole rebel thing is true for some and not so for others. If you value a conforming, staid, low-key kind of personality, the rebel will seem obnoxious. If you are rebellious for whatever reason(s), the low-key folk will likely bore you and feel like posers. There is no better or worse, despite all eforts to elevate one type or personality style over the other. There are merely perspectives, and a diversity of people.
While one can pot shot the film and isoloate out those who conform to your favored exestential style, I have always believed that the climbing world was big enough for all commers, and have personally enjoyed the diversity found therein. Wishing a rebel like Dean Potter was more like awe-shucks Alex Honnold is to me a vain attempt to wish that this was rather like that because that's how I like my climbers. Wheresas to me, the climbing world was the one place where we could all go and escapt those kinds of judgements. So to see them trotted back out here, masquerading as sober criticism and humble, honest evaluations is rather dissapointing.
That much said, my own biais is that I've never appreciated someone telling me how I should be. So when Ed suggegested I (and all other climbrs) should be "more like Tom" Frost (who Ed describes as "sophisticated"), I bristled. Ed goes on to use the example of Tom using his sophisticated personality and approach with the Park Service to get Camp 4 declared and preserved as a very special place celebrating climbers and their historically spcial relation to to the Valley and their special achievements on the cliffs. Or rather, he got the Park Service to designate Camp 4 as a National Landmark owing to it's sameness with all the other camps sits in the Valley, as used by an average group of people who accomplishd normal things on the routine and entirely pedestrian cliffs seen in just another National Park.
JL
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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If you do, you will end up way to heavy and will fall off all your climbs ......
Ha Ha!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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eKat.... nice story, all true.
I felt sorry for the few climbers who also worked for the company. They had a hard time walking the line, making sure their boss didn't see them hanging with the long hairs.
And it cracks me up when folks say that they were "excluded" from the group.... from what I know everybody was included, as long as you were not some sort of NARC, LEO type. All that was needed was the ability to climb and not be a crybaby.
So the LA show is a sell out, as well as some of the San Diego dates, Im going to get some for Bishop... 11/8
Very happy to see the interest, I hope the Sender folks make a ton of $$$ and make a part dux.... "Lycra Unleashed"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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I don't want you to be sophisticated... "like Tom"
but we could approach the real issues that we are involved in concerning the Valley on a much more sophisticated level, and not all of us, but enough to help out.
I know that Largo believes that he had an inclusive vision for climbing and climbers, obviously any of us who hang around that crowd long enough comes to love the diversity of characters, from Chongo to Robbins (and back again). We're all over the map.
But perhaps "Valley Uprising" was "just" a documentary. If true, then the focus on the "climbers as rebels" wasn't a very pertinent perspective, in my opinion. What were the climbers rebelling against?
The only thing they actually resisted was gravity.
Otherwise, they acted, largely, like adolescent males have acted throughout history and beyond. No disrespect meant in that.
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WBraun
climber
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What were the climbers rebelling against?
Sterile environments .....
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Dean, in my opinion, is one of the modern standard bearers of what I see as the true spirit of Valley climbing I haven't been able to move past Dean's assault on Delicate Arch. Hopefully that will not be the visionary ethic that young climbers embrace.
Susan
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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comments inserted into Ed Hartouni's writing below:
But perhaps "Valley Uprising" was "just" a documentary. If true, then the focus on the "climbers as rebels" wasn't a very pertinent perspective, in my opinion. What were the climbers rebelling against?
structure. [which structure/s, is/are dependent on the individual]
The only thing they actually resisted was gravity.
exploratory lifestyles were created that had [at least for a time] nothing to do with straight line paths towards the status quo of a wife/husband, 2.3 kids and a house with a white picket fence. in resisting systemic structures, opting out and controlling oneself is as much an act of resistance as attempting to manifest change via control of the controllers...
Otherwise, they acted, largely, like adolescent males have acted throughout history and beyond. No disrespect meant in that.
your analysis is usually spot on, but you are missing the boat with the above. there is a depth to the intentionally rebellious actions of many nomadic and lifestyle climbers that goes beyond the largely unconsciously driven and directionless adolescent version.
that said, the question as to whether "rebellion" is/was the major driver behind the valley narrative is a worthy one... otoh, to say that the only resistance successfully made was to gravity is to lack understanding of the drivers behind the actions of many full-time nomadic climbers... regardless of whether they made/make the valley their central base...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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"Special" as used by Ed implies a kind of "I'm better than you" attitude, for so and so reasons - and you'd have to talk to Ed per where that comes from.
What if Ed was teased and called "Special Ed"? He might have an aversion to the word special. We should be sensitive.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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apologies to Paul Simon.
"the words of the prophets are written on the valley's [sick] walls"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
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no problem with teasing... and Largo is just being Largo in his argument style.
I thought that I constructed a careful argument that defined what I meant by special, which has to do with privilege.
Largo chose to say what he meant when he was interviewed, but the fact is that his statements were a part of an overall narrative in the movie, and the clips that were used in that narrative promotes the idea of "privilege." The only exception was Honnold's statements.
I don't think this is taking "pot shots" and I don't quite know what it is about my post that would lead Largo to think so...
My main point was that a lot more was going on than just the ideas promulgated by the climber protagonists. As history, many things have changed in the Valley, wouldn't it be interesting to try to understand what actually happened? If you want to say that the Rangers have the upper hand now, wouldn't it be interesting to try to figure out why?
Maybe it isn't entertaining.
The climbers in the Valley, by and large, could have easily chosen other paths for their lives. For the most part they came from middle class families, many of whom continued to support them in their "dirtbag" existence in the Valley.
That doesn't take anything away from what they achieved in climbing. But even the debate over whether or not climbing is "a sport" (which is sure to be taken up here) seems telling. The contributions of Largo and Bachar in terms of the efficacy of athletic training to push the climbing into more difficult realms seems to indicate that it has something to do with sport... especially taking the non-essential nature of most sports, climbing too.
Largo's tid bit attribution of the comment regarding the rangers is very interesting, too bad it wasn't in the video, it adds to the historic textures.
I also don't understand the rejection of the idea that the Valley scene isn't essentially an adolescent male experience, and one that is not unique in the sense that becoming independent and finding your way in the world is a relatively common story. One could have been going off to the Crusades in the Levant or on a spirit quest in the pre-colombian western desert, or any number of similar "coming of age" exploit. All very powerful, very spiritual, and pretty common.
Reconciling the preponderance of male exploits to female exploits is a consequence of such a view.
Casting what happened in the Valley, over the ages, in a larger perspective takes nothing away from all that did happen. And certainly it was a formative experience for the participants (I was not one). But history is not written by the participants precisely because they have a very narrow perspective.
What surprised in the viewing of "Valley Uprising"? really very little. Maybe I'm wrong here, but the movie didn't even rise to the level of historic perspective we've been honored to engage here in the STForum (even with all it's problems).
That's not a pot-shot, it is a criticism.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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White punks on dope
The climbers in the Valley, by and large, could have easily chosen other paths for their lives. For the most part they came from middle class families, many of whom continued to support them in their "dirtbag" existence in the Valley.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Ed Hartouni wrote:
I also don't understand the rejection of the idea that the Valley scene isn't essentially an adolescent male experience, and one that is not unique in the sense that becoming independent and finding your way in the world is a relatively common story. One could have been going off to the Crusades in the Levant or on a spirit quest in the pre-colombian western desert, or any number of similar "coming of age" exploit. All very powerful, very spiritual, and pretty common.
i don't think anyone's rejecting that it is/was primarily driven by adolescent male rebellion... this is essentially just an objective fact... the issue is with what originally prefaced that objective statement: "What were they rebelling against" and "The only thing they actually resisted was gravity."
these statements are diametrically opposed to "All very powerful, very spiritual..."
ie. adolescent male rebellion can be the root of something powerful, revolutionary, etc. or it can be [and, imo, more often is] mindless, fruitless, etc...
depending on the post, it seems to me that you have argued both...
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jstan
climber
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When I told a shuttle bus driver I thought Yosemite beautiful he replied, "You would have to be dead to not love Yosemite."
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CCT
Trad climber
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Okay, this is just a layperson's perspective, so bear with me.
The general feeling from the little crew I watched it with, is that overall it was a good movie. It was fun way to learn about the history of rock climbing in Yosemite, and the visuals were entertaining. It flowed smoothly. I especially liked how it humanized Robbins and Harding, by presenting them in relation to, and in competition with, each other. The only part that didn't really flow, to me, was the bit on base jumping at the end. Unless your name is Dean Potter, base jumping and climbing are distinct sports.
As a weekend warrior, it was interesting to learn about the tension between the rangers and the climbers. I've always perceived the park service as remarkably supportive, especially "climber coffee," YOSAR, those little carabiner signs they've added to popular use trails, and the permission to add bolts. But I suppose the time limits would be a bummer if I wanted to live in the Valley and climb full-time. And I know it's hard for the foreign nationals who scrimp and save for their one summer in the Valley. It seems like there should be a way to compromise. Alex Honnold definitely came across as having the best attitude about it. Climbers aren't the only people in the Valley, and we need to remember that.
As for the points above, about early climbers being primarily adolescent males who had their peak life experiences in the Valley, at the same age as many of their peers were going to college, or to war, or getting married..well, I think we already knew that. It shows up in the vehemence with which climbers defend their traditions. Any intense bonding experience, especially at that age, is going to seem like the most important thing in the world. In a way, it is unfortunate that climbers of today can't have that experience in the Valley. But luckily, there are other places and other sports where that opportunity still exists.
To the team who made the film - thanks!
EDIT: I've just read the rest of the comments in the thread, and maybe I understand now why they included base jumping! Because except for that, most climbers in the Valley aren't really "rebels" anymore. Most of us follow the rules and the traditions, and are pretty happy to do so. Take out the base jumping, and that strand of the film just kind of fizzles out.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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I was only familiar with Camp 4 in the '60's and based on that experience, I see it as more of a generational evolution. When I left in 1969, "Bridwell and his boys" were seen with admiration and bemusement by the older climbers and the certain sense that they were a very different group.
Other than Harding and Kor, the top climbers in the '60's were college educated and middle class. The chief motivations were self discovery and an exploration of just what the human body was capable of on virgin rock. Toward the end of the '60's, thanks to the Vietnam War, escape from the system but especially the draft, became a greater theme. Even those who were drafted and served, wished to free themselves of that perceived stigma and hanging out in Camp 4 was one way to do it.
We did not yet see ourselves as enemies of either the Park Service or the Curry Company though we had already observed that the Curry Company had co-opted the rangers. We also understood why in terms of middle class norms, and found the cat and mouse use of the showers as another amusing game. The '60's climbers also contained many nerds who believed one had to be celibate to do hard climbs (probably just a cover for their own social ineptitude) so it is interesting to hear about later escapades in the girls' dorms. As for drugs, the '60's climbers were the pioneers of that as well, but spent three times as much energy analyzing what it all meant than actually doing them.
Hard climbing in the '60's was seen as a transitory passion by most, and financial success and respectability was still the final goal. Harding and Kor for all their non conformity, still earned a living and paid their taxes while climbing. Chinouard was one of the biggest social rebels in those early days and look where he ended up.
Perhaps then, the climbing scene mirrors American society more than many climbers would like to admit. Gentle rebellion followed by full on, in your face rebellion, followed again by a more gentle form. It seems to me that in the long run, Tom Frost and Alex Honnold might be bookends on either side of a short wild period provoked by the Vietnam War and the drug scene of the 1960's which only became full blown after that decade was over. American society and climbers are both probably a lot more conservative than they self perceive.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Ed,
you have made the big mistake of extrapolating what John Long meant when he was interviewed. Yes, we all heard those words too but, we have no idea about how much of what he said on the special-ness of climbers was edited from his interview by the producers. You make yur case from clipped sound bites -- some historian?
How little we know about what goes on in someone else head. Those speakers edit their thoughts when they speak to us.
Needless to say I like your effort.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Jan,
That was spot on!
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katiebird
climber
yosemite
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Nice Ed - thanks for the educational review.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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relationship with the terrain
Warbler,
To describe this "relationship" could fill many volumes, at least in my own personal experience. I do not have the time today, to begin to explain this connection, but to say...
I belong to the wild places and the wilderness belongs to me.
The New Native American.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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I left the Valley the day before it debuted but then caught it the next weekend back home. I thought it was entertaining and well told. For an east coast audience, many of whom hadn't made the pilgrimage to spend their time in the Sierras as I had, it seemed to strike a chord and I heard a lot of impressed muttering at events or people that most of the people on this forum just assume is generally known information. Obviously simplified and compressed, they did manage to convey the story of climbing in the Valley in a reasonably accurate manner and in a way that a non-climber could understand without causing pain to those who understand how it was actually done. Beautifully shot with a lot of creativity in the visual storytelling. I found myself saying "well that's not quite right" a couple of times but it was never so much that it ruined the movie or even the segment. Well worth a watch for anyone, even if it's mostly old news for many of us. Seeing a lot of the old photos and film footage alone is worth it.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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The whole issue of "rebellious behavior" by climbers requires further consideration.
If you are an average Joe, or anyone not involved in the "climbing lifestyle" of the times the actions such as: "vulturing" food from the restuarants/Deli/Cafe, illegal camping, smoking pot, etc may seem quite rebellious.
Rebelling against societal norms is not necessarily a bad thing (well behaved people rarely make history, to borrow a phrase), but saying it was not rebellious seems like being in a bit of denial.
I guess it all comes down to how one defines "rebellious" - this doesn't seem too far from the mark:
Free Dictionary:
re•bel•lious (rɪˈbɛl yəs)
adj.
1. defying or resisting some established authority, government, or tradition.
2. pertaining to or characteristic of rebels or rebellion.
3. (of things or animals) resisting management or treatment; refractory.
Great discussions and points here.
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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"After years of working your way into all sorts of different positions from which to view the incredible creation that is Yosemite Valley, I think you do have a special relationship with the terrain that a flat lander lacks."
I agree with this, and think that it goes beyond just the terrain - some of the most knowledgeable people I have talked with about Yosemite geology are climbers who claim to know nothing of geology.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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There is also just the history of the park and of climbing. When we look up at those cliffs we see not only truly awesome, striking cliffs but all of the adventures and misadventures of fellow climbers over the decades. That is a fundamentally different esperience.
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oldnutz
Trad climber
OAKLAND
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What I found oddly missing (unless I missed it), was no mention of Robbins' seminal article in Summit Magazine that led to the end of pitons...his energetic battle with Harding was well told, but it seemed what logically would follow is a description of how clean climbing took hold after the publication of his "Advanced Rockcraft"?
I was impressed at the breadth of what did make it into the film, but was surprised that no mention was made of the role nuts and passive pro, as well as SLCDs a decade later, had on climbing in the valley.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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"While one can pot shot the film and isolate out those who conform to your favored existential style, I have always believed that the climbing world was big enough for all commers, and have personally enjoyed the diversity found therein. Wishing a rebel like Dean Potter was more like awe-shucks Alex Honnold is to me a vain attempt to wish that this was rather like that because that's how I like my climbers. Whereas to me, the climbing world was the one place where we could all go and escape those kinds of judgements. So to see them trotted back out here, masquerading as sober criticism and humble, honest evaluations is rather disappointing "
Spot on, John.
I don't believe this was specifically directed at your narrative, Ed. I viewed the film as entertainment, not meant to accurately tell the tale climbing in the "Ditch" as a 360* history. Witness the screen time dedicated to the tale of Chongo vs the the almost footnote Bachar's death or almost anything else. I liked it, for what it was.
Oh, and by the way, I got mine at Lower Merced Pass Lake......
TY
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CCT
Trad climber
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Hey Warbler,
Quick note about your comments about women not being at the cutting edge of the sport. Mostly, that's true, Lynne Hill's ascent of the Nose aside.
But, for climbing to be popular, I mean really, truly, popular, women are absolutely essential. Go to any climbing gym, and you will see as many women as men. Ask any younger male climber who his partners are, and there will be women among them. Ask any child who grew up climbing, and odds are good that you will find a mother who climbed, at least a little bit, in her youth, and maybe still does today. Take the women out of climbing, and I honestly believe that you would have a lot fewer men engaged in it too. And that means a lot less pushing of the envelope, if that's what matters to you.
Bev Johnson, Lynne Hill, etc. They opened up the climbing world for women. It would have been nice to see a little time spent on how this dynamic played out in the early years. It can't always have been easy for them.
More relevant to the film than base jumping, anyway.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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he real battles were between YP&CCo (and later MCA) and the climbers, and since their Security forces had no power, NPS was called in to enforce infrigements along the lines of "Defrauding an Innkeeper."
Hah hah eKat. Yeah, I was busted for using the Curry employee showers. The security guard did not have anything on me and called in a NPS LEO.
A ranger came, escorted me to my car (parked in a Curry employee car park, stupid me), and then asked for ID, when I reached into the glove box, he wasn't sure if I was pulling a gun (I hate guns) and pulled his weapon/gun on me, I almost sh#t my pants.
He told me to get my ass and car back to C4.
Later I reported a couple in trouble on the Falls trail, David Y and I had been on an acid trip, he went up (we heard the cries of help from a Camp 4 campfire). I called the rangers from the old gas station next to C4, David and another guy (from Columbia College, not spacing) went up the trail to help the couple (on their honeymoon from Missouri, he had fallen off the trail, landing on a ledge about ten feet below).
A ranger arrived at C4, guess who, yeah. Him. I got grief, he thought I was winding him up.
David and other guy brought the two down safely, the couple treated them to a dinner at the Four Seasons.
Me, nothing but an earful from the LEO. My bad luck.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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I disagree that good or great climbers are "no better" than common tourists. Most tourists are like big greasy pigs eating vanilla frosty cones and gawking like dairy cattle, they're gas-guzzling robot clowns clogging narrow Valley roads with 3 dumb kids in the backseat. Bitd I gave tourists holy fuking hell. I stared thru them like they didn't exist or physically shoved them out of my way more than once......
Wow, I guess "scrubbing bubbles" is just trying to wind us up, in classic troll style, but this is one guy I don't regret not knowing.
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CCT
Trad climber
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Warbler, I think you misunderstood me. That's cool though. This thread is about the film, not about gender politics in climbing.
And the film was a lot of fun. I'm glad I had a chance to see it. In the unlikely event that it sparks a renaissance of climbing history films (yeah, right), hopefully they will touch upon some of the issues and viewpoints that have been brought up in this thread. More perspectives are always better, especially for the things that interest us!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The effectiveness of Valley Uprising is that it got us to forget the action stuff and as shown here, is concentrating on the characters - the end-game of all narrarives.
Per specialness, rebels, and so forth, these all reflect - by and large - the perspective and biases of the teller. There is no objective criteria here, unless you posit the whole thing in terms of a task. For the person heading up for a harrowing free solo, they damn well better believe they have special talents. But any perceived arrogance is for some, a call to attack.
For being so robust and tough, we are a fragile bunch per our egos.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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"special under the law"
climbers aren't (they may be special for all sorts of other reasons)
under the law, we are to be treated the same as any tourist, visitor, employee...
...if you are going to talk about ranger-climber relations, that is what you are about.
If you think about that, it is a profound realization, and one that can help with the perceived difficulties of being in the Valley.
The responses pointing out "specialness" are exactly why these problems persist.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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they're WAY more fun!
But, the real question is where do you stand vis-a-vis Fee Waybill?
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CCT
Trad climber
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Hey ekat, you sound awesome! And like a true trailblazer for your time! Kudos, and thanks for the traiblazing, even if you don't see it that way.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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...if you are going to talk about ranger-climber relations, that is what you are about.
Again, Ed, this is assuming that this is the linchpin for all climbers - as well it should be. That is a debatable perspective.
When I was in the Valley, I totally ignored the rangers and stayed entirely clear of them. I never once had a run in with one because I was simply not available for the encounter. I played it totally low profile around any park service or Curry Co, personal.
The Jeffersonian chant about "all men are created equal" is a point well taken. But there is no question that some people like Pratt and Bachar were blessed with special talents and they did very special things.
I believe your beef is that some people believe they deserve special treatment. This is balony, of course. But it does not - at least in my mind - negate the very special accomplishment of leading climbers in Yosemire and elsewhere, nor the extreme specialness of the venue - a wonder of the world.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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eKat-
I could not have expressed my own feelings any better.
Don't worry about what other people think.
Just get out there and do it.
and
"I played with the boys, they're WAY more fun!"
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WBraun
climber
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I got busted taking a shower in the shower house across the street from camp 4.
The housing aszhole called security.
Then the ranger came and said I have to see Judge Pitts.
Pitts says whata ya plead?
I said Guilty !!!!!
Pitts says; "Got anything to say about this?"
I told him everyone calls us dirty dirtbags and then when we try to clean up our act we get busted.
"WTF man!!!"
Everyone in the court room started laughing.
Pitts starts pounding the gavel.
"Quite in the court room!!!!"
Then he said: "$25 Mr Braun" and pounded the gavel again.
Hahahaha Ho mannnn .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Great story Werner. That should be in a book or movie somewhere.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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For the most part, my relations with rangers have been positive although I have been pulled over for what I felt were stereotypical reasons. However, simple devices have seemed to bridge good will lately as opposed to sophisticated approaches.
The saving of camp four to me is more of an emblem then reality since camp four is a pain in the ass to stay in. Ed, you yourself brought up one of the most recent important bridges, the Facelift. The other I would mention, although with much less publicity but which is having a great impact is bolt replacement. The fact that Roger Brown has volunteer status and can (almost) officially represent as both a true volunteer from the public with a climbing bent if you will, and be recognized by the NPS is an excellent example of a positive relationship between the communities. Most of us re-bolting have been able to foster a good relationship within the ranger community with both climbing and non- climbing rangers.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
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these days, if you spend time as a climber in the Valley, or even watching the sequence in "Valley Uprising" were Dean (?) get's pulled over and has the video on ("please turn the video off sir"), you can try to avoid the rangers, but they may actually be looking out for you.
in particular, if you are going from a known climber venue (e.g. the East Auditorium area during FaceLift) and you have anything wrong with your slightly beat up car, you'll be pulled over. In fact, if you do anything at all, say you are waiting at the stop sign at the 3 way stop, four way intersection and the car that has a right-of-way stops and waits for you, you pull out and and then realize (you're getting lit up) that that car was a ranger... they pull you over for not yielding (entrapment?).
You get the explanation why you are pulled over (your headlight is out, you weaved onto the line, you didn't yield) then you get asked all sorts of things about what you've been doing: had anything to drink tonight, had any drugs, what's that in the bottle, what's in the pack, do you mind if we take a look in your car...
you have to know that anything unrelated to why you were pulled over for is IRRELEVANT and you do not have to answer. You do not have to let them look in your car. If it is about your headlight, then you're done... "I'll get it fixed at the soonest possible opportunity, thank you officer"
that's what it's like in the Valley today.
Now BITD, it wasn't like that... and it isn't because the climbers avoided the rangers, rangers won't be avoided if they don't want to be...
That's where the role of the U.S. Magistrates comes in...
The question is: why have the recent Magistrates allowed such blatant profiling to occur?
or at least that is one way of looking at it.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
el portal
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Funny Werner-man
#supertopoGOLD
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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^^^^^^^You nail it T! I love the Valley. Be there in two weeks. BUT. I'll take a 'hideaway' crag any day.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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T Hocking, in a former life you were a bear.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
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each example I used above was an actual account from people who post to STForum...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
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not thread drift... actually, but our sense of liberty and freedom (taking a sh#t in the woods) can have legal ramifications...
you can look at the law here:
36 CFR - Parks, Forests, and Public Property
you might be interested in Chapter II, FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
for the above rant... traffic safety in the park is described in Chapter I part 4
perhaps the lawyers among us could describe what happens when you get pulled over for a head light and an open brew is in the operating area of the car... and if followed by a test and an arrest, what would a legal defense be?
One rule of note in part 4 is:
§ 4.31 Hitchhiking.
Hitchhiking or soliciting transportation is prohibited except in designated areas and under conditions established by the superintendent.
I'm not aware of any conditions established by the superintendent of YNP, are they listed somewhere?
pertinent to the FaceLift activities, look at part 6, SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL SITES IN UNITS OF THE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM
§ 6.8 National Park Service solid waste responsibilities.
(a) Beginning one year after January 23, 1995, a Superintendent will not permit or allow a person to dispose of solid waste at a National Park Service operated solid waste disposal site except for waste generated by National Park Service activities.
(b) The Superintendent of a unit where the National Park Service operates a solid waste disposal site will establish a waste collection program for harmful wastes generated by residential activities by National Park Service and concessionaire households within the unit. The Superintendent will establish frequency and place of collection but such frequency must be, at a minimum, every twelve months.
(c) Each Superintendent will ensure full compliance with regulations at 40 CFR part 244, Solid Waste Management Guidelines For Beverage Containers. Only those units of the National Park System where carbonated beverages in containers are not sold, or that have prepared formal documentation of nonimplementation under 40 CFR 244.100(f)(3) that has been approved by the Director and the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, are exempt from the deposit and container return program mandated in 40 CFR part 244.
(d) NPS concessionaires, commercial use licensees and contractors will comply with acquisition, recycling and waste minimization goals established by the NPS.
part 7.16 has specific regulations for Yosemite Valley...
another interesting bit of this:
(c) Powerless flight. The use of devices designed to carry persons through the air in powerless flight is allowed at times and locations designated by the superintendent, pursuant to the terms and conditions of a permit.
once again, it seems the superintendent determines what is permissible.
and the camping limits:
(e) Camping.
(1) Camping is permitted in Yosemite National Park for not more than a total of 30 days in any calendar year: Provided, however, That during the period from June 1 to September 15, inclusive, camping within the Yosemite Valley is limited to not more than a total of 7 days and camping within all other portions of the park, during the same period, is limited to not more than a total of 14 days.
(2) Quiet shall be maintained at all camps between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m.
--
on closures and limits:
§ 1.5 Closures and public use limits.
(a) Consistent with applicable legislation and Federal administrative policies, and based upon a determination that such action is necessary for the maintenance of public health and safety, protection of environmental or scenic values, protection of natural or cultural resources, aid to scientific research, implementation of management responsibilities, equitable allocation and use of facilities, or the avoidance of conflict among visitor use activities, the superintendent may:
(1) Establish, for all or a portion of a park area, a reasonable schedule of visiting hours, impose public use limits, or close all or a portion of a park area to all public use or to a specific use or activity.
(2) Designate areas for a specific use or activity, or impose conditions or restrictions on a use or activity.
(3) Terminate a restriction, limit, closure, designation, condition, or visiting hour restriction imposed under paragraph (a)(1) or (2) of this section.
(b) Except in emergency situations, a closure, designation, use or activity restriction or condition, or the termination or relaxation of such, which is of a nature, magnitude and duration that will result in a significant alteration in the public use pattern of the park area, adversely affect the park's natural, aesthetic, scenic or cultural values, require a long-term or significant modification in the resource management objectives of the unit, or is of a highly controversial nature, shall be published as rulemaking in the Federal Register.
(c) Except in emergency situations, prior to implementing or terminating a restriction, condition, public use limit or closure, the superintendent shall prepare a written determination justifying the action. That determination shall set forth the reason(s) the restriction, condition, public use limit or closure authorized by paragraph (a) has been established, and an explanation of why less restrictive measures will not suffice, or in the case of a termination of a restriction, condition, public use limit or closure previously established under paragraph (a), a determination as to why the restriction is no longer necessary and a finding that the termination will not adversely impact park resources. This determination shall be available to the public upon request.
(d) To implement a public use limit, the superintendent may establish a permit, registration, or reservation system. Permits shall be issued in accordance with the criteria and procedures of § 1.6 of this chapter.
(e) Except in emergency situations, the public will be informed of closures, designations, and use or activity restrictions or conditions, visiting hours, public use limits, public use limit procedures, and the termination or relaxation of such, in accordance with § 1.7 of this chapter.
(f) Violating a closure, designation, use or activity restriction or condition, schedule of visiting hours, or public use limit is prohibited.
[48 FR 30275, June 30, 1983, as amended at 51 FR 29470, Aug. 18, 1986]
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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^^^^^^
I'd love to have a Meltdown, but I cannot afford it.
EDIT
BITD, I was doing okay, leading 5.10 when the "big boys" were leading 5.11.
But I was once told, and will not reveal the name of the person, and this is a factual and true quote...
"You don't climb with Bridwell? You must be crap."
Actually, I was fourth up Lunatic Fringe (not the FA though), Jim led, Werner followed, some other guy (I wish I could recall his name), and when I was following, Jim and Werner had rapped off. So did I climb with the legend, or not?
I don't care. I am a full-time carer for a lovely woman, a partner (who wouldn't climb at all, she's afraid of heights, even afraid of dogs and horses, but one of the most sincere Irish lasses one could hope for, a ballerina, until her knees gave out. She has her honours from RAD, Royal Academy of Dance, one of the best, speaks volumes, but I could never, ever to get her to climb, she would see me in Dalkey Quarry free soloing, and cringe).
Point is, who really cares if there was a Golden Age, Stone Masters and Stone Monkeys. I climb because I love it. It's that simple.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2014 - 08:25am PT
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thanks bvb!
John Muir would be so busted:
Except for Administrative Activities, climbing or attempting to climb the giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron Giganteum) tree is prohibited.
36 CFR § 1.5(a)(1); 36 CFR § 1.5(f)
This restriction is to provide for protection of natural resources.
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WBraun
climber
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Except for Administrative Activities, climbing or attempting to climb the giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron Giganteum) tree is prohibited.
36 CFR § 1.5(a)(1); 36 CFR § 1.5(f)
Yep
When we filmed the "Wild California" Giant Sequoia part we got to climb the big one and haul the monster IMAX camera up into the tree.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2014 - 08:42am PT
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ah yes... hitchhiking:
36 CFR § 4.31 – HITCHHIKING
• Hitchhiking is permitted in the following areas under the terms and conditions noted:
-All areas of the park when the person is off the roadway surface and when public safety and traffic flow are not adversely affected.
-When vehicles may safely pull off of the main traffic lane into a turnout or safely onto the shoulder to allow for the passengers to be received.
-When not under the influence of alcohol or intoxicating drugs.
-When hitchhiking behavior is safe and not a nuisance
-Except in residential areas where signs exist establishing the area as residential areas only and discouraging public traffic.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
el portal
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Are you guys debating "values" for how others should act, speak, etc with regard to Yosemite?
Or
Are you guys debating land management policies?
Or
The interpretation of history?
These first two interact with one another but it is important to differentiate them.
Interpreting history and telling stories is often today the domain of commercial film makers like Sender Films, BigUp.
Kinda glad for an open forum like SuperTopo for folks to create their own meaning. Personally I liked the movie but in the end the people who made it are participating in the dominant modes of communication that shape our world: commercial, inflammatory, and essentially superficial in that they can't capture the full magic of Yosemite in a film. Its probably impossible but damn the movie was entertaining.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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the title of the video was "Valley Uprising"
perhaps it was just a geology pun...
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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I just heard "Valley Uprising" is coming to Moab.
Woot!
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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The talk about the employee showers reminds me of the great YPnCC towels, big soft and white [for a while], which were easy to boost from the showers. You could never have too many. Essential uses included:
....cushions for sitting at the camp tables.
....making pillows.
....mopping up wet tents, and anything else which needed mopping up.
oh, and also for showering!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Is it OK to take photos of people throwing up gang signs next to the giant sequoia?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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When, Larry?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2014 - 10:17am PT
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Is it OK to take photos of people throwing up gang signs next to the giant sequoia?
interestingly, it depends on the Superintendent... and the Magistrate
and this gets back to my main criticism of our perception of "Valley Uprising" the focus on the climber/ranger conflict.
It is entirely possible that there were those involved in the governance of Yosemite NP, which also protected the climbers' rights. It is a dimension that is totally unexplored in our climber-centric version of what happened... once again, see Largo's upthread post where he "avoided" the rangers (which I have no doubt he did). The implication is that it was within the power of a climber to determine a rather complicated political outcome.
The very idea that there may have been some benefactor working in favor of what the climbers were doing (well, perhaps not as regards the salvage operation), at least in terms of the preservation of their "rights", runs counter to the traditional narratives of climber as "other", a group of outsiders "rebelling" against the establishment.
That narrative doesn't work if a more nuanced sense of "the establishment" is developed.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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That narrative doesn't work if a more nuanced sense of "the establishment" is developed.
Oh yes it does.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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in what sense does it work?
what if there were very strong proponents in the NPS working in Yosemite to insure that the climbers' rights were not infringed upon? that is not to say that illegal activities were condoned, but if you focus on the bending of rules (e.g. the 7 day limit and 14 days total in the park during the "high season", 30 days for the year) then one is left asking, just who was doing this? It is not an issue that the climbers could control in terms of a "rebellion." They would simply have been kicked out.
In more recent times, the enforcement of these limits has a huge affect on the climbing community (or lack of) in the Valley.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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what if there were very strong proponents in the NPS working in Yosemite to insure that the climbers' rights were not infringed upon?
Because the climbers rights would then be special. From politics to family members, corporations to prisons, there is favoritism in institution. This favoritism is part of the dynamics. Probate court for the blessed inheritors for example, of defining who is special from those that assume they are special.
The fact is, in the Valley climbers are special, no matter the workings of the NPS or the characters involved. Being special would have brought conflict regardless, and the story would be told.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Actually there are untold stories of rangers and of a certain magistrate, doing their best to help climbers, even understand them. The best source I know for the magistrate accounts is Joe McKeown (our very own Guido, of Guido Roofing (g)). Joe encountered His Honor more than once, maybe even dated a daughter or??? But Joe has spoken and written of this official in pretty positive terms over the years. Accounts from the Sixties, mind you. Apparently the judge was somewhat rustic, independent, and novel, even.
In the early seventies we still had the great Pete Thompson. We worked with him directly on the first big El Cap rescues. The man was just absolutely wonderful and way powerful as well. Pete even helped out Bridwell in a bunch of ways privately back then. Alas, Pete transferred or was transferred out of there at some point and we lost a terrific friend and ombudsman. Pete's son Josh became a famous Olympian biathlete. (1984 Olympics for example) See here: http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/th/josh-thompson-1.html
I will never forget the calm and power than came through the radios on the first West Buttress and Nose rescues. It practically brought me to tears. Pete was down on the Valley floor, scoping us all and conducting operations from there to the ant hill of technicians in action on high.
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SweetCrimp
Big Wall climber
Bay Area
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Many people are able to stay in the park for longer than the set limit. If you keep a low profile, look normal and don't bother random people, why would you be bothered? As far as the Rangers are concerned, you are just like any other money spending touron.
Chongo section was silly.
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Modesto Mutant
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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I just watched Valley Uprising at the Rio theatre here in Santa Cruz. I was able to overlook the inaccuracies, and inconsistencies to thoroughly enjoy the film. The highlights to me was Royal. I loved his sense of truth and humility. Anyways, thumbs up.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Oct 10, 2014 - 06:23am PT
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truth and humility [??]
you make this judgement from a few sound bites?
Speaking of "sophistication" this guy Royal may have it over both Largo and Tommy Frost. I really do question the conveyance of his sincerity.
I used to sell my guidebooks to Royal. He was the biggest as*hole for eternally late payments with no interest. We are talking maybe getting payment a year after repeated requests for payment in full. I soon required prepaid payment for my guidebooks to this huckster.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 10, 2014 - 07:49am PT
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Wow, climbing sounds complicated!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 10, 2014 - 09:01am PT
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Climbers are a family. Watched Valley Uprising with my peoples at the Rio. It was "The Show", the shat, terribly expectation beating awesome, hip, coolio, rad, sick-wicked-bitchin, OH YEAH!
History, and the STORY told by some ugly ass commentators, with heroes, villains, characters, beauties and burley babes, and a new kid too. Smartasses and CEO's and my favorite drunk, well damn it was good. A critical ass kicker, shut up!
IMO this flick rocked it out of this world!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Oct 10, 2014 - 09:56am PT
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Funny that Roger!
Watched the flick last night here in the Cruz. Entertaining to say the least.
What a crazy lot these climbers.
Take it for what it is worth, a night of reflection, awe and entertainment. No reason to fact check as things were all over the board.
Ease off on Royal there Mr McGee, or is it McGoo?
Have at it mates!
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Modesto Mutant
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 10, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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Hi Dingus, I'm not Robbins apologist but I did work for him for a few years back in the 1970's, and got to know him and his family well. My comment was more to the side of seeing RR have a more compassionistic take on things compared to some of his previous dispositions. But I do have to admit that I have great admiration for him so my view may be a bit clouded. Anyway, I very much enjoyed the show.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
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Got to see Valley Uprising when in Yosemite for Facelift and the audience basically was apesh#t. The other night got to see it again in Moab and expecting similar whoots and hoots, but the audience was very sedate even when the local boy Dean Potter was featured.
They gave away prizes at the end and Daphne won an awesome day pack by North Face.
The show was introduced by Royal Robbin's daughter who lives here in Moab. She looked so much like her mother.
A fun time had by all.
Susan
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
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I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's an overview, a general outline if things, I thought it covered wide ground pretty well.
Daphne as first raffle winner in Moab showing!
That pack has been to castleton and through entrajo canyon now!
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:12am PT
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That pack has been to castleton and through entrajo canyon now!
I knew you'd take advantage of her booty. ;)
Susan
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Oct 25, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
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I enjoyed watching the "Valley Uprising" last night. A colleague who had seen it previously in the Valley thought it was substantially different. Are there different cuts being shown? When can we expect the Director's Cut available on DVD?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 25, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
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^^^^ Yes, I believe you are correct. The version I saw in Moab was slightly different than Yosemite. I didn't find it "substantially" different. More subtle.
Susan
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
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Something about chix?
And that back is on it's way to the bay via otto's approach; no booty was taken advantage of.....:)
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
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Yep and oh sure
Susan
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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[photoid=383828]
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 25, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
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Jim at the Costa mesa show last nite.....we had a fun evening..
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roy
Social climber
NZ -> SB,CA -> Zurich
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Hi,
Valley Uprising came to the Zurich area last week so we had to go and see it. Ed's initial analysis is interesting and I thought that the conflict part was a little overdone. But I did enjoy the interviews with Robbins and (to the extent that you would call the excerpts interviews) Harding.
To a general audience (and maybe not too many general audiences will see this) I thought the climbers might come off in a poor light. The Chongo section seems a bit silly.
Ok - allowances for a bit of dramatic excess. It was well done and it showed the valley well. But mostly it triggered memories that made my palms sweat. And that made it worthwhile.
Cheers, Roy
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Finally saw this on Saturday at the Boulder Int'l Film Festival. I liked it a lot. I thought that Steve Roper was absolutely hysterical and the bits on Harding were priceless...particularly the whole living with his Mom thing.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I was disappointed that Peter Croft was not given any screen time or recognition. Seems like he was the leading climber of his day, and set the stage for Potter and Honnold, etc., so even a brief mention would have been appropriate.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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+1 on Croft. I am no Valley historian but he seems to be as important as Bachar, Kauk, Potter and Honnold. And how about Caldwell...as far as phenomenal free climbers go in recent history those guys pushed it quit a bit! Would be wise to have more info about him and less about all the base jumping.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sequels.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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I bet it is because Caldwell and Croft are too unsensational. Croft actually had a job so he did not have to run from the rangers. Caldwell sleeps in has van outside of the park or at friend's houses. They seem to generally follow the rules, don't have confrontations with the rangers, are kind to the resource and still manage to climb hard!
This goes against that movie's general thesis.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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I finally saw this movie and was absolutely disgusted.
Honnold's statement that he "...needs to share the park with 4 million other people" was the only voice of reason in the whole dang thing. I'm sorry, Largo et al. I do not buy that climbers are special. What about a handicapped or elderly person who can only look up at the cliffs? Is their experience in Yosemite less valuable than yours. I say HECK NO!
To Potter et al. who "just want to be free". Does this freedom apply to Enrique Rodriguez and his 70 member extended family who want to have a bbq in El Cap meadow, leave their garbage all over the place, and sleep in the bushes? That definition of freedom is egocentric.
Most people who work for the park are climbers. Those who don't climb have good friends who do. The climber vs. ranger dichotomy is more blurred than the film wanted it to be.'
I walked away from this film immensely disappointed. It characterized a conflict that dominantly exists between the park service and abusers of the resources, not between park service and climbers.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nice summary RP3.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Is any given "Enrique" any less special because he is one of 9 siblings and has fifty-some cousins?
Where is the love of conflict? I cruise the right "Bus and park employee only lane" at Arch Rock. Yellow Love notes with $5,000 fine if you don't follow procedure along with Bear police shining spotlights in face at 11:30pm.
At least I can still get free showers and coffee, some of the time. Do not be so quick to let go of tradition.
The Movie barely scratched the surface of conflicts.
Many of the Park service employees deserve commendation for their exceptional service. More than a few should be prison guards, morticians, or college dorm janitors. Probably not that last one as the Yosemite falls bathroom is usually an embarrassment at our beautiful, international, wonder of the world destination.
Though when we need a respectable persona to represent our cause, it is important to have the Tom Frosts and RP3s of our world available to get results rather than the reprehensible dirtbag scum.
Harding, Harding, Harding, the movie was about Harding and of course Robbins and a few others!
Human nature baby, and a damn good story.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Yesterday at the Pinnacles Eastside parking lot, a twenty-something year old climber proudly pulled old one copy each of Royal Robbins Basic and Advanced Rockcraft. I don't know the back story of how this became important to her but it was very cool how proud she was to have those books. One of the other climbers then let on that he had a signed copy. No Valley, no story, no such stuff.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I was impressed with Robbins' reflections. I knew all of the stories about him and Harding. I've actually done the Dawn Wall via the Nose (1976), and have seen those beautiful, shallow dihedrals that Robbins was so impressed with Harding's ability to negotiate in the way that he had. I like the way he described his decision to stop destroying the route.
As much as I was very much a child of the Stonemaster era in the Valley, I can't help but think that the adventure was that much more intense in the "Golden Era", as defined in the movie. To do the first ascent of Half Dome, the first ascent of El Cap...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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BEst part of the movie was where the Jack Booted National Park SWAT Cops beat the sh#t out of the Stonemasters in El Cap Meadow.
Huh? We must have seen different movies.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Walleye: I got that idea by working for the NPS in Yosemite for seven years and climbing there at least twice per month for the past 4. I'm also still highly involved in geology research in the park and have a lot of friends who still work for the NPS.
Clinker: Climbers have been responsible for several bears being euthanized. In the past, some climbers repeatedly improperly stored food around El Cap and bears because habituated because of this. This loss is, in part, due to climber irresponsibility. That is just an example (to me) of an NPS function that is designed to protect the ecology of the park, not just be an inconvenience out of some kind of hate for "the hippie climbers"
In my experience, the people who draw the heat are those who dont follow the simple rules that were established to protect a resource shared by 4 million people.
Sorry if I hurt some climber fee-fees, but I don't think climbers are more special than any other human trying to use the park for their enjoyment...
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Jones in LA
Mountain climber
Tarzana, California
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Mar 10, 2015 - 07:34am PT
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What left me scratching my head was the blatant omission of Charlie Porter's undeniable impact on the trajectory of big wall climbing in Yosemite Valley. I believe what left Porter as nothing more than a footnote at the end of the film, was the fact that he was a quiet, unassuming guy. His drama-free demeanor and his under-the-radar way of getting things done, simply did not fit into the narrative that the film makers ultimately concocted. What a shame.
Rich Jones
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Mar 10, 2015 - 07:42am PT
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^^^^ so many important people left out. Very disappointing.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 10, 2015 - 08:12am PT
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I'm also still highly involved in geology research in the park
Geologists finding faults, typical. ;-)
I shouldn't stay in the Valley, it raises my blood pressure. Staying there has become unbearable.
I made a request for bear boxes at the Tamarack Flat trailhead and other ares frequented by climbers trying to comply with good food storage practices. Lack of resources was the answer given and the official yet unofficial word was, "food storage in your vehicle during daylight hours is fine." This is usually followed by a dissertation on how smart and adaptable bears are.
Climbers should be storing food in bear boxes at all the day use areas and trailheads in the Park. Get the first generation boxes that have been replaced at the campgrounds distributed to these places to keep the bears wild.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 10, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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gee wizz.... its a darn movie.
Lots of people get left out, now if it was made in India, we could enjoy a 18 hour epic film.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Mar 10, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
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Balanced, well-adjusted people make for boring viewing. Have you ever seen a reality show about, say, Buddhist nuns?
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Mar 10, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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And that's not counting the various creative work-arounds and alternatives that climbers have developed.
One thing is to get a girlfriend who works for DNC. Oh wait...that would cut into your climbing/drinking-in-the-boulders time.
Edit: that was funny, Rob!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 10, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
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Sorry if I hurt some climber fee-fees, but I don't think climbers are more special than any other human trying to use the park for their enjoyment...
+1,000. Climbers are TOURISTS. Sorry, it drives me nuts when climbers talk down to or about other visitors. It's public land and no forms of enjoyment are more important than any other form. Except maybe those geologists, bunch of weirdos :)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Mar 10, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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Very good short treatise, Ed! The only idea I slightly disagree with is found near the end of your excellent presentation.
"The only way we climbers can influence what actually happens in the Valley is to get involved in it, a civic responsibility to understand the laws, our responsibilities and our rights. This is a drag for someone who is young and relatively naive, but there are enough of us older climbers who could be involved, who have some time, and more importantly, have the expertise. The climbers have just as much access to the Superintendent as anyone else, I wonder how often they use it. The climbers could get much more involved in the governance of the park, it is a wonder that they do not. The FaceLift is an example of how we might approach the issues of climber/ranger interactions."
I don't think we should under estimate "the young" and using Alex Honnold as an example I would assert there are those out there that are intelligent and thoughtful. Perhaps a group of those that care about the Park and climbing, including all ages, would be a great representative force to do what you suggest, which by the way is an awesome idea.
If someone has already suggested this, I apologize for my repetition.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Mar 10, 2015 - 08:32pm PT
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This is a pretty great thread, a fine bit of debate and honest disagreement that suggests the Taco is not just a moribund troll cave.
I have a LEO/Court tale to share. It would have been summer of 77, I was headed down to Fresno to fly to my father's wedding in Mexico City, and it isn't surprising that my multicolored 67 VW bus caught the LEO's eye as I negotiated the curves somewhere after the Tunnel. He pulled me over and wrote me a ticket for driving too close to the center line. When I tried to argue that I hadn't crossed the line, he said, fine, would I rather be cited for driving too close to the right side of the lane?
Naturally, I wouldn't just pay a fine, so I went to the hearing in the Valley. Not like I needed an excuse to go back, but I made an earth shattering discovery:
If you're going to a court appearance, you don't have to pay an entrance fee.
Ho man, I worked that scam every time I had to stop at an entrance booth for years and years, more than enough to pay back whatever fine I had to pay after trying to gripe about biased cops. I don't even really remember the courtroom scene, but that stop at the entrance booth is etched in my mind.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 11, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
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Brilliant, Offwhite!
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If
Trad climber
UK
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Mar 16, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
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I think this discussion thread should be included on the DVD!! (Edited cus my spelling is sh#t!)
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Apr 25, 2015 - 10:37pm PT
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They should just stick to what they know: Honnond, Sharma and all that.
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JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
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Apr 26, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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I enjoyed the show a lot. Of course it could not come close to including everyone but how could it ? As for the rangers , Allen Bard and I were warmly greeted by John Dill after a climb. I always heard nothing but good things about him and I'm sure there are others.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Apr 26, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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Lots of people get left out, now if it was made in India, we could enjoy a 18 hour epic film.
and there would be a lot more dancing!!!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 26, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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Occasionally you learn something VERY useful on the Taco.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Apr 26, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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I thought it was good, fascinating old clips... left out Harding's rescue by Robbins and some other important moments, but a documentary has limitations and there is an entertainment requirement.
I remember staying in the valley from the first of April to the first of June... never hassled by rangers...by Memorial Day it was time to leave, crowds, too warm. A low profile and a quiet demeanor and knowing when to move to a new spot insured a pleasant stay. Working for YP&CCo was another way of staying for long periods... easy job at the Ahwanee provided a meal ticket and long afternoons and weekends free for play. Maybe the documentary played up the rebel thing too much don't really remember it that way.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 27, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
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If you're going to a court appearance, you don't have to pay an entrance fee.
Being a certain age works, too. Maybe the golden age. I think the 60s; at least that's what was it for me.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jul 27, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
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It's All Gold! :)The place, the people and the history!
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