Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 109 of total 109 in this topic |
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 9, 2014 - 06:00am PT
|
Yeah, this could become a Polititard thread, but I decided to bring a few observations I've been making on my current jaunt in Europe to the table.
What's really triggered this is the pitiful condition of most American Highways and Bridges. We as Americans have always been proud of the system of highways and roads, but anyone driving across Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, Nevada, and California will see what I'm talking about immediately. Well...maybe not, but a comparison of the Western USA highway system to the German Autobahns and Italian Autostradas certainly brought home the deplorable condition of our now seriously aging infrastructure.
Another observation is what is causing our roads and associated bridges to be in this condition: mostly over-the-road tractor trailer trucking, the boys with the 18 wheelers. Now is where and how this gets "Political!" How TF are "we" going to pay for fixing the damage? The answer was dumped right in front of me in both Austria and Italy: Toll charges on the Autobahns. They aren't too terrible for passenger cars or SUVs, but this way the real users get hit with the expense of PROPER maintenance. Since the "Big Boys" are using the roads and bridges to generate revenue for the truck lines, they need to pay a bigger share of the overall bill. This seems a lot more palatable than the recent Oregon "track your vehicle by GPS" intrusion on everyone's personal privacy. The way the Autostradas in the Italian Dolomites have been constructed, they are sure one schittload "environmentally friendly" than all the Earthmoving done in the USA by bulldozer and with the accompanying "scalping" of the adjacent lands.
This is just a "thought for the day."
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 06:20am PT
|
DMT-
I never once mentioned privatization of the highway system, just raised an alternative method of financing it. There's a long history of toll roads in the USA: Pennsylvania Turnpike, New Jersey Turnpike, Kansas Turnpike, Colorado E-470, Denver-Boulder Turnpike (Now U.S. 36).
This way the excess revenue generated goes towards maintenance of the secondary road system Gasoline taxes aren't getting the job done, that's for sure.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 06:34am PT
|
What I'm suggesting has nothing to do with political parties, only a method of funding. Funding is what kills everything in the political morass of the Federal Government. What I'm suggesting is a self-sustaining and apolitical approach. No tax money involved, just get the task accomplished.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 06:43am PT
|
I am already paying for highway maintenance through a variety of tax vehicles...
Are you "getting your money's worth?"
|
|
TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
Where I grew up in Europe, there is a bridge, built about 1589, it was repaired and widened in 1815, and to this day has no weight restrictions for vehicles of any kind.
Five miles from here there is a bridge, built in 1935 that been closed to all vehicular and even pedestrian use since 2010. I recently paddled under this bridge and was genuinely concerned for my safety.
We get what we pay for. Nobody wants to pay.
TE
|
|
TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
But for the most part, I am already paying for highway maintenance through a variety of tax vehicles. Not really interested in adding to the price tag because the politicians diverted the funds for stupid things.
DMT
His point is that with gas taxes we're paying far more than our proportional share of the wear and tear on the highways. Of course, getting heavy vehicles to pay their fair share will pass those costs on to us too, but slightly more fairly. What he's forgetting is that the trucking and retail industries have far deeper lobbying pockets than we do.
TE
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 07:20am PT
|
They also add taxes to gasoline that have no relationship to highways. Wyoming had a recent gas tax increase and none of the $$$ went to roads.
|
|
John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
|
|
Driving across Colorado right now you are going from one patch job to the other...
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 08:02am PT
|
Even though Wyoming is doing a lot of work on I-80, almost constantly, it's still crumbling under the traffic from the 18 wheelers. Ditto that, to a slightly lesser extent for I-25 North from Denver into Billings.
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
It's simple. Feds need to legalize the herb.
Pot for potholes!
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 08:18am PT
|
In response, I just bought a new automobile in Germany for this trip, since I'm staying a month (save on car rentals). I was able to put the hammer down on the throttle between Rothenburg o/d Tauber and Munich on Autobahn A8, in full compliance with the existing speed limits on a road so good it didn't make me slightly nervous. There isn't a stretch of highway that I've seen in the USA where I'd feel like doing 200 kph (128 mph) for 5 miles as I did. Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah now have an 80 mph limit, but the roads are only marginally good enough to do it safely. Nevada may have the new limit, as well.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Yes, Broke, but you fail to note that Germans and even Italians actually know
how to drive and obey the traffic laws. It costs like $5K to get a driver's
license in Deutschland. I'm currently doing a study on how much poor drivers
in America cost the economy; it is staggering. Those phuktards doing 55 in
the fast lane are an Economic Menace as well as royal PITA's.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 08:28am PT
|
You're absolutely correct there, Reilly. Another factor is the absolute absence of "junkers" on the road the way we see old rusted-out POS cars on the American highways.
According to the NTSB, the driver causing the greatest number of accidents is usually driving ~ 5 mph slower than the traffic flow. Car won't go fast enough? Cataracts and can't see? Just "the way they drive?" Who knows?
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 08:30am PT
|
FM-
I drove on "his" roads over 50 years ago, and the new Autobahnen bear NO resemblance to the old ones. And nobody has slowed down since I was here in the Army, either!
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
We are also lagging in broadband (we pay the most for the slowest service), transportation, healthcare and many of our airports are embarrassments.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
The roads are not great in Ca. Europeans have better infrastructure and better education because they are willing to pay for it.
Sorry Brokedown but it is poltical.....there is a party out there whose members want lower and lower taxes so that they can enjoy the waning days before the coming Rapture.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 08:49am PT
|
^^^^^^
Not a chance. (Re: FM's post)
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Yes, we would rather bomb other countries into oblivion only to build them back up again than work on our own infrastructure.
I love how the republican't congress loves to talk about infrastructure building etc., except when it comes to this country.
Don't expect things to change.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 09:08am PT
|
The point I was originally trying to make: the Autostrada system is entirely self-sustaining, and doesn't depend on "which political party is in power." Which is all to the good, since it takes "pork" out of the politicians' hands. That means Derf (sorry about that, Dr.F.--too good to let that one pass!), wouldn't need to get his knickers in a twist about the subject. The real problem as I stated early on is the rise and fall of available funding for this particular infrastructure--which is essential. It also would infuriate the Over the Road trucking industry by making them pay a more equitable portion of the damage done by their use (abuse?) of the network.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 09:16am PT
|
The damage done by the trucking industry is no where more apparent than I-80 across the state of Wyoming, from Cheyenne to Evanston. The highway is crumbling from the sheer numbers of axles passing over it a day. No, I don't have numbers, before you ask.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
while it is easy to talk about how increased fees on big trucks would simply be passed on to consumers (and it would), it also has another effect:
Transportation options exist in competition. It means that by comparison, railroads become more cost effective. There is no doubt that RR's are far, far more energy efficient and less damaging to the environment. There is also no doubt that if the number of trucks on the road went down, the congestion would be less, and there'd be less need for building more roads.
I take the point that this suggestion is about shifting the mechanism for funding of road maintenance, probably to something more transparent and less prone to abuse....and I definitely favor THAT.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
I'm all for gas taxes, and for increasing taxes on trucks. Yes, consumer goods would go up a bit. And the gas tax is a little regressive, but I'd be fine with it if infrastructure is what it got used for.
I'd vastly prefer that to toll roads. Any time I travel for work I hate dealing with those. They slow traffic down and cost money to build, maintain and staff the stations.
As others have indicated, the problem goes beyond roads and bridges.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 10:04am PT
|
The toll roads are on the major hauls between major cities, and don't seriously affect day-to-day movement. The deal on the Austrian Autobahn is simply a windshield sticker to indicate you've paid the annual Autobahn Fee. For ordinary automobiles it is around $25.00, and considerably more for trucks (weight dependent). The major excuse in the USA for presence of the Highway Patrol is "traffic safety," but it's really a scam for generation of "non-tax revenue," that isn't accountable in budgets. Pork for politicians to play with, so to speak.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 11:04am PT
|
I have yet to see a cop on the Autobahns. They are usually found on the secondary roads.
And DMT, do a little investigating as to where all those traffic fine dollars go before you comment further.
As Reilly stated earlier, it costs a lot to get a drivers license in Europe, so there are very few incompetents on the roads.
Further comment on toll roads; it was mentioned by an earlier poster that tolls might cause a shift from using the highways for moving goods to the railways; in the USA, our rail system is also archaic and in need of massive restoration and rebuild.
What I've been suggesting is a real paradigm shift, and not a retreading of the present transportation system. A thorough modernization of the whole transportation network is in order.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 11:42am PT
|
^^^^
The problem as I've stated is funding, funding, and don't forget about...funding. I've mentioned how the toll roads are self-supporting, and they also provide jobs for the toll takers and maintenance crews. The funds collected are in excess of needs which are then used for new construction of additional subsidiary roads, bridges and tunnels. This is how to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. Railroads are another major priority; European gauge is wider than U.S. Standard Gauge, and the load carrying capacity thus greater. The railroads I've seen in Italy are entirely electrified, and aren't using diesel fuel. A net decrease in fossil fuel consumption (oil, gasoline, and diesel) would be a side benefit from a paradigm shift of freight hauling from highways and 18 wheelers to railroads.
Instead of more and more regulators, let economics do the job; in the long run much more effective.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 11:49am PT
|
^^^^ We need to sit around a roaring fire and discuss in JTree! Your weed and my booze.
|
|
Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
|
|
No need to try to complicate the simple and glaringly obvious crux.
We get what we pay for. Nobody wants to pay.
that's it TE..
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Two facts have the most to do with road maintenance: one for each end of the political spectrum.
1. Our fuel taxes have declined because fuel mileage has improved. In constant dollars, we don't collect as much per mile of road as we did, say, 40 or 50 years ago.
2. Much of our fuel taxes have been diverted for cost-ineffective public transportation.
Sad to say, overcoming either problem requires violating the religious beliefs of at least one end of the political spectrum. Solving problem (1) violates the Tea Partiers, who believe that the only good tax is a non-existent one, and requiring users of government-provided goods and services to pay for them constitutes a "tax," not a "fee."
Solving problem (2) violates the collectivist creed that private automobile transportation is bad, and all other forms are good. How else to explain California's expenditures on a high-speed rail system with no demand, no net reduction of air pollution or fuel use, but massive spending,, or taking out lanes of traffic on arterial streets and replacing them with bike lanes? This end of the political spectrum, like their counterpart on the right, believes that users of government-provided goods and services should not be required to pay for them, because that would be "regressive."
Then there's the idea that the purpose of infrastructure spending is to enrich the friends of the politicians (before Republicans get all huffy about Democrats' spending, remember that the Bridge to Nowhere was an entirely Republican almost-construct). There's also the Davis-Bacon Act, etc. etc.
My bottom line: the reason we have infracstructure problems stares at us in the mirror: we insist that someone else pay for it.
John
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Your name is so ironic for the topic
lol .....
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
|
One thing that pisses me off in Europe is the "pay to pee" system even in the gasoline stations. Usually only 50 cents (half a Euro) to take a leak. We have a lot of good free things here in the USA, only because the gangsters haven't figured out how to charge for the simplest necessities.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
|
John-
You are slightly confusing Libertarianism in extreme form with Tea Party ideas that less government and government spending is "good." The Libertarians (of which I am a "fringie") feel that there is no such thing as a good tax on anything.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Brokedown,
I agree that my characterization of Tea Partiers holding to the libertarians' motto of "taxation is theft" may be misapplied in general, but I don't think so, at least around my little town, when applying to essential government services.
It's really about the rhetoric about lower taxes and spending, but the griping when the services they want either aren't to their liking, or come with a price they themselves need to pay.
My favorite example concerns local rates for Fresno City-supplied water. The City contracts with various sources of surface water, which it stores both in above-ground reservoirs and in basins where it is allowed to percolate into the ground, and is then pumped into the system for City water consumers. Water in these parts is most certainly not free, but until very recently, the Fresno City Charter prohibited charging based on metered use. When the City moved to amend the Charter to allow charging based on metered use, the local Tea Party objected, saying that the water fees would "raise taxes."
To me, that argument confused the nature of a tax. An unmetered fee is a tax, because you pay regardless of how much you use. A metered fee cannot be a tax, because the amount you pay depends solely on how much you use.
Again, my main point is that we want good infrastucture, and will fight long and hard for the "right" to make someone else pay for it.
John
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
|
I guess my comments earlier about the toll roads and the fees for usage weren't that transparent. I was suggesting a means of renovating the crumbling infrastructure by charging the parties most responsible for the present and ongoing decline in a fair and equitable manner. Then the fees being charged for use would allow additional infrastructure to be built and those in existence to be maintained in perpetuity.
I keep having an old military acronym popping into my head: TANSTAAFL; which is: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
Our infrastructure needs to be renovated/rebuilt/expanded. How are we going to get this done with the political gridlock? That's why I started this, not as a rant ground for both Left Wing or Right Wing zealots.
|
|
bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
Getting into SF from the far east bay has never been easier with the 4th bore of the Caldecott and East Bay Bridge complete.
I've lived in a number of places and for the sheer volume of people that live in the Bay Area, I'd say the highways here are pretty damn' choice. If you've got 5 cents worth of brain in your head, it's not difficult to avoid the worst of the traffic.
Worst traffic ever, consistently was in Germany trying to get around Stuttgart on a Friday. Look up the word Stau.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
|
Going over the Brenner Pass on a Holiday weekend in High Season is where you really find Stau; 30 km in around 4-5 hours.
|
|
bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
That sounds about right. The worst Stau involve everyone getting out of their cars and just shooting the schiese because no one is going anywhere for awhile. The Autobahn is a nice system but it has problems too.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
|
Been there, done that...
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
I don't think anyone has mentioned the diversion of highway fund revenues to other purposes both at the federal and various state levels.
Just Google
highway funds diversion
and you'll come up with 45 pages.
Seems like it's an easy piggybank to rob.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
Rodger, here. I loved this little Mosto Gusto tour of the torres of N. Italy.
It's nice to see an old dog in a fight,
Just remember to drive on the right,
Don't spend & tax them,
Try to relax them,
Taking tolls from the trolls...outasite.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1954729&tn=4809
Regardless of what else has been said, there is no way these smaller roads were ever meant to carry large eighteeners, but then who knows what some of these older engineers planned, really.
Seems ludicrous, too, to think of a semi on some of these tight corners.
Americans love their RVs, too, and take them where they should not go, but in a NP this would be taken care of by LEOs toute de suite. More revenue, if it were administered properly.
Tolls were permits granted by counties, just as ferries were licensed by them in California. They were worth a small fortune, sometimes.
This is privatization, DMT. It's happened in the past, but it's not the way now, because we have such cool ficking brudges.
Cheers, all!
Two cents and I'm gone.
|
|
Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
|
|
If you think you can swing it on the big roads without police, good luck to you Sir.
Why? We rarely have any police out on the biggest roads. They usually show up at big travelling days with holiday drivers, to keep the speed down. That they do by simply drive along for a stretch, back and forth. If you're stupid enough to speed by that policecar, you pay. A lot.
They do come if somebody calls them for some reason, like seeing a suspected drunk driver or something like that. But otherwise? Nah. The traffic police hunts more for drunk drivers (zero tolerance limit).
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
|
Locker-
We could sit around the fire and DISCUSS doing those bone-chilling 2.1s....
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
Just curious Broke,Have you ever been on the New York State Thruway?
The large tolls from trucking help maintain our other roads as well as the Thruway.Keeps the Dept. of Trans. working.
If that is what you are saying,the Thruway system would be your model in this country .
And I would love to run it at 100mph,if you could.
|
|
Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
|
|
The whole Country is going to hell because of the Republican agenda of "The race to the bottom"
Unfortunately this problem extends far beyond just a Repugnican agenda . . . A third world populace is easier to control. They are grinding the good ol' USofA down, down, down. Party is over motherf*#kers.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
The whole Country is going to hell because of the agenda of "The race to the bottom"
Fixed it for ya.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
I'm with brokedown on big rig damage and will take it a step further by sighting how many times 18 wheelers have closed 395 down in the winter by not having chains on and getting sideways on Conway summit bringing traffic to a halt for several hours...Happens all the time..And how many times have you been stuck behind a big rig with 10 other vehicles doing 40 for 10 miles only to have the big rig accelerate as he tries to keep everyone behind him when the passing lane comes up...? Make em pay for the extensive damage they do and stop corporate welfare for the special interest trucking lobby...Oh they'll raise their prices..? Good i won't buy their products and then somebody will do their job for less pay...The trickle down con game goes both ways...
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
Yesir ,that is how IT works over here.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
Anyone remember those signs on the back of semis saying, "This truck pays $7,000 per year in road taxes?" Back in the 70s if I recall.
Made me wonder how many $ of road damage they did per year.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 11:00pm PT
|
The key point on the damage done by the 18 wheelers on the Interstates: the roads were designed and mostly built around 50 years ago, and no one anticipated the loads that would be imposed. These highways are now completely under-engineered for the current application, and are crumbling. The Interstate system is the legacy of the Eisenhower administration, which ended in 1962. The roadbeds were not designed for the current loads, weight-wise. The average 18 wheeler carries a load of 40 tons, but many are out there with extra axles (aggregate haulers) with 60 tons per load. Plus a "pup" trailer with 20-30 tons more weight. There were several sections of I-25 where there was extensive underground water resulting in very uneven, rippled road surface between Casper and Glenrock. This portion was completely rebuilt 10 years ago and "dynamic compaction" was employed to break down the underground stream flows. This was VERY expensive but it seems to have worked. Repairs to our own infrastructure seems to have low priority when Federal money is actually handed out. Yeah, there's always "lip service," with blah, blah, blah, we need to fix this, we need to fix that, but the funding always goes elsewhere.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
|
Does anyone remember the Colorado "ton-mile" tax that caused a trucking industry uproar years ago? At any rate, Colorado roads are really in bad shape these days.
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 06:50am PT
|
I don't know _ we did just build 4 new nuclear sub-marines @ about a billion & half each.
I've driven on New York's Hwy. they suck.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 08:21am PT
|
DMT-
I'm still trying to decipher the message embedded somewhere in your last post?
It comes down to a mission statement for these guys serving as Highway Patrol. What should be their mission? Is it simply writing speeding tickets, or doing REAL law enforcement? Your above statement was confusing to me. I really failed to see your point.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 08:36am PT
|
In other words, to serve a legitimate POLICE function instead of writing tickets?
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:41am PT
|
Is it simply writing speeding tickets, or doing REAL law enforcement?
Broke, I wouldn't accuse you of being disingenuous or a troll so I will
assume that is a rhetorical question which really doesn't need to generate
much debate. Although I hold CHP officers in higher regard than most cops
that only means most of them could lose a leg and still jump over the bar.
I had a CHP officer write me the most ticky-tack ticket I've ever received -
for rolling an onramp light! It was a steep uphill ramp and I was in a F150
with a stick and I was tired of slipping the clutch to move up 20' each time
the stupid light let the car in front go. I was literally at walking speed
when the light was even with my door when it turned green. He was at least
4 or 5 cars behind. I really loved it when the azzwipe said,
"Have a good day, sir."
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 08:51am PT
|
DMT-
The infrastructure to which I've been referring has been the major city to city, long distance highways. Of course speed limits are needed in urban areas. Consider the drive to the local Vons as opposed to a trip across an entire state. Consider the other drivers on the road; are they as competent as they should be? are YOU as competent as you should be? I certainly recall my father in his final years driving: an accident looking for a place to happen.
Reilly-
Yes, it was strictly rhetorical, and was phrased as such.
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:53am PT
|
Brokedownclimber, I haven't read the entire thread yet, but got back last night from a couple weeks in Germany. I know its all relative, but there is a similar discussion going on about the condition of the German autobahn. The EU is complaining that Germany is NOT investing as much as it has done in the past for road upkeep. Instead the focus is on short term savings, which is more popular with voters, than longer term infrastructure spending. The autobahn, especially in the western regions of Germany that did not receive much money after reunification 20 years ago, is reportedly in bad shape which affects transport to Belgium and Holland.
The current debate in Germany is whether to impose tolls for ordinary motorists. Right now only transport trucks have to pay.
On an entirely separate note, I was impressed how small German cars are. There are very few (edit - LARGE) SUVs. I wish the USA would greatly increase the price of gas, and use some of this for road spending.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 09:27am PT
|
^^^^
The SUVs are a more realistic size than, say the Suburbans and big Fords. I took delivery on one at BMW Welt at the start of my trip, and so far it's exceeded all my expectations.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 11:04am PT
|
As a general statement:
Please tax me more. I want the country in which I live to be well run and maintained. So please spend more on education, roads, and the health and well-being of my countrymen. Please spend vastly less on running our war machine. I would rather have smart kids than smart weapons.
My taxes are lower than I think they should be given how much I have gotten from this country, and i hate seeing the current under 30 set is really getting a raw deal compared to the help and opportunities I had growing up.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 11:07am PT
|
My consulting firm, The Tioga Group (and no, Tioga is not an acronym for Transportation Information from Our GArages) was hired to make recommendations to the DOT for methods of paying for transportation infrastructure two years ago. The assignment related specifically to freight hauling. We all agreed that marginal cost pricing was the goal, but it proves difficult in practice, both because of measurement and transactions costs.
As just one example, the ton-mile charge overcharges light loads, and undercharges heavy ones. Ton-miles per wheel could get us a better measure, but even that fails because the damage done to a road is not a linear relationship to weight.
Funding solely by fuel taxes doesn't get to marginal cost either, however, because the fuel efficiency of the carrier has nothing to do with the marginal cost of the infrastructure. An eighteen-wheeler with a fifteen ton load imposes the same marginal cost, regardless of its fuel efficiency.
There's also another factor that's difficult to measure, that I like to sum up this way: old taxes are good taxes. By that, I mean that the economy usually adjusts to a particular tax scheme in a way that optimizes its economic distortions. Changing that tax system to one that is theoretically better may not result in a practical improvement because of the economic distruption the change will bring about.
Then there's the effect of corporate welfare built into any funding scheme. As an obvious example, we want to encourage "clean air" vehicles, so we charge fees based on fuel purchased, rather than miles driven. While some may justify these incentives as worth the economic distortion, they nonetheless involve government policy that shifts costs from some industries to others. Not all of these costs shift are benign, but each is terribly difficult to undo.
When the smoke cleared, the only methods of finance that were both practical and bore at least some relationship to economic reality were fuel taxes and ton-mile charges. So much for a sophisticated study!
As for the role of the Highway Patrol, in 1975 I performed an econometric study on the effects of the Arab Oil Embargo -- and the subsequent dramatic rise in fuel prices -- on safety on California rural highways. That study, in which I used a great deal of data and analysis from the California Highway Patrol, showed that speed limits generally, and the imposition of the 55 mph limit on rural highways in particular, had no statistically significant effect on either collsions or fatalities per vehicle mile.
Speed dispersion, on the other hand, was a statistically significant determinant of collisions. A vehicle travelling just 5 mph below the speed of traffic was ten times more likely to be involved in a collision than one travelling at the speed of traffic. Similarly, a vehicle travelling 10 mph faster than the speed of traffic was also ten times more likely to be involved in a collision. I doubt this has changed much in the 39 years since I undertook that study.
This suggests that the proper role for the CHP is not to enforce the speed limit, or ticky-tack violations, but to tighten the speed dispersion, by ticketing outliers in driving speed. Those who travel too slowly or too fast, compared with the speed of traffic, are the ones statistically most likely to be involved in a collision. Thus, instead of trying to slow down the natural speed of traffic, law enforcement should either speed up or slow down the outliers.
John
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 11:32am PT
|
"Please tax me more. I want the country in which I live to be well run and maintained. So please spend more on education, roads, and the health and well-being of my countrymen. Please spend vastly less on running our war machine. I would rather have smart kids than smart weapons."
Agree 98%....except that current tax revenues are probably more than sufficient to provide exceptional education, infrastructure, and public health. Redirect 10% of the defense budget towards these elements and we'll be golden.
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 11:48am PT
|
Look, all that the truckers or Boys in 18 wheelers as you call them, are doing is transporting what we ask them to. That's right. Every trip you make to Target or Home Depot and expect the lowest price for your goods, which were shipped by truck to your nearest franchise.
And freight is damned expensive too! Like through the roof, off the charts, out of this world. And the Boys in 18's aint raking it in either.
So, what do you want to do? How would you like to pay for your road repair bills Sir?
Arne
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
|
As Margeret Thatcher said: Socialism is great...until it runs out of OTHER PEOPLE"S MONEY.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
|
John-
You just reiterated the NTSB statement about drivers. The 5 mph under current traffic flow driver is a MENACE. Most drivers of that type are never IN the multitudinous accidents they cause. They drive on...blithely until "next time."
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
|
|
|
Sep 10, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
|
Okay I'll say it,
I think you old farts need to act your age, suck it up and just buy that Cadillac.
The roads are only as bad as your rides suspension.
You're not impressing anyone with those finely tuned racing Eurofagwagons :0
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
|
I'm with broke on the toll system! Provided of course the money actually goes to The Roads!!!!
Nice ride, broke! I was gonna ask what you got. That will serve you we'll on those newly 80mph highways around Douglas/ Casper!, he'll even my '96 Camry dug 'me this summer.
Edit all seriousness aside, Goat there is only one car choice for the climber
A '64 Chevy convertible, of course!
Hmmm can't find the Joe Isuzu, Isuzu trooper ad , also shot up there.... Wtf?
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
|
One of the early-on complaints about the toll system was time spent waiting in lines to pay tolls; I experienced the way Many people handle the problem on the Autostrada, especially busses; there's a transponder equipped lane with a gate which raises by approach of the transponder. No delays whatsoever. Just slow down as the gate opens and records the vehicle's account, and drive on through.
I mirror Jaybro's concerns about diversion of funds to other "projects," as well. The only way to handle such a system is to have a completely separate Government-owned "Turnpike Authority," which handles and disburse the funds without them going through hands of politicians. It would need to be an entirely "closed loop system," in order to receive my support. The first modern Turnpike system, to my limited knowledge, was the Pennsylvania Turnpike; I don't know how that was set up as a system.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2014 - 07:13am PT
|
Don't tax me more, just spend less on aircraft carriers and stoopid planes
like the F-35.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 07:15am PT
|
^^^^^^^^
+10000!
The F35 certainly "qualifies" as "stoopid!"
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2014 - 07:16am PT
|
Locker,
If you think you need to be taxed more, just pay the government whatever you think is right. They'll accept more than you owe, just write the check.
If what you really want is for other people to pay more, you're going to run into opposition. Most of us see government as a bad investment.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 07:29am PT
|
^^^^^^^^
That's a +100000 statement!
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2014 - 08:30am PT
|
Most of the roads including the Interstate system were built on the cheap and have been maintained marginally since. Lots of work to do...
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2014 - 10:30am PT
|
I gather that Eisenhower had the interstate highway system built after he tried to drive tanks, trucks and other AFVs across the country to simulate a simultaneous enemy attack on the west and east coast. He found that impossible to do, so decided to build a system similar to the autobahns that he saw when US troops advanced into western Germany in the spring of 1945. The interstate system was actually in pretty good shape in the 50s and 60s. Since then, there has been a general decay due, as one contributor noted above, to figuring out who's going to pay for said repairs. Sounds like a job for the feds at the highest levels of government, something like a national interstate highway commission.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 11:35am PT
|
Todd & Bruce-
That's one of the reasons I started this thread. Considering the many thousands of Interstate miles that need fixing, the real problem becomes a method of funding that wouldn't (further) bankrupt the country. The Germans, Austrians, and Italians all have good roads, but the Austrians have tolls, and so do the Italians. About the only way to fix everything in a meaningful time frame is toll highways. That said, I've never liked them; on the other hand I really have enjoyed driving on excellent roads for a change. The "big rigs" have accelerated the decline tremendously over the past 10 years.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
|
DMT-
I guess we're mired again. Toll roads to pay for those roads being heavily used by the big rig haulers and private users. Let the users pay for the damned roads! What you've said is the legislature will always use any source of $$$ to pay for their current pet projects, and responsibility is down the drain. It's not about taxes, but user fees.
About your whining about paying for something: gasoline taxes are supposed to be for highway construction and maintenance from a "trust fund," but it seems that in spite of your support of the Government in other areas, you're damned cynical here!
Yes, I am aware of the use of lottery funding.
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
|
I think is boils down to which state and highway you're on. HWY 80 through WY is bad but 25 between Casper and Billing is very comfy. The big north south and east west highways are going to get more truck traffic in middle America but the side state and national highways are in decent shape.
Chit holes with to many people like New Jersey and southern California will never be able to keep up the maintenance due to the shear volume of people traveling on those roads. Overall I think the state highways are better now than 20 years ago when it was a lot of two lane state roads linking the nation.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2014 - 07:38am PT
|
Decay, you have to love it...it's sooo organic.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2014 - 07:40am PT
|
A voluntary tax system does not work, and it is a weak ass straw man argument. I make well into the 6 figures and would be happy if folks similar to me were paying another 5-10%. I want my schools funded and the tanks mothballed, not the other way around.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2014 - 07:50am PT
|
Americans build their infrastructures based on dreams.
Americans need to build their infrastructures on reality.
Americans have no clue what reality is and that's why the saying "The American Dream".
Building dystopian infrastructures based on utopian dream states ultimately crumbles the infrastructure which has no solid sustainable foundation.
Thus you will be given ISIS, NSA nuclear terror, stupid politicians who do nothing for you etc etc and everything that is wrong.
You are stupid Americans ......
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2014 - 07:51am PT
|
Not sure we really need to be flying down the road at 80mph
80 is fast? Not according to Uncle Stirling it isn't.
|
|
pinckbrown
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2014 - 08:05am PT
|
"In response, I just bought a new automobile in Germany for this trip, since I'm staying a month (save on car rentals). I was able to put the hammer down on the throttle between Rothenburg o/d Tauber and Munich on Autobahn A8, in full compliance with the existing speed limits on a road so good it didn't make me slightly nervous. There isn't a stretch of highway that I've seen in the USA where I'd feel like doing 200 kph (128 mph) for 5 miles as I did. Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah now have an 80 mph limit, but the roads are only marginally good enough to do it safely. Nevada may have the new limit, as well."
I drove to Austin, NV from Carson City on my motorcycle (an Autobahn burner that was sold in Europe before it was brought to the US) at 135 mph on cruise control. At 100 mph, I had no problem taking my hands off the handlebars, and steering by using my head tilting slightly left or right. The NHP told my friend (who set this up for me) to not get on it till 50 miles beyond the cat houses outside of Carson City & to shut it down 50 miles before Austin. He also said that this was a one shot deal, on Wednesday, and to watch out for the open range because he did not want to drive way out there to scrape me off the pavement. Hwy 50 East is a lonely, long straight road. I have also driven on the Autobahns.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2014 - 11:24am PT
|
Another observation is what is causing our roads and associated bridges to be in this condition: mostly over-the-road tractor trailer trucking, the boys with the 18 wheelers. Now is where and how this gets "Political!" How TF are "we" going to pay for fixing the damage? The answer was dumped right in front of me in both Austria and Italy: Toll charges on the Autobahns. They aren't too terrible for passenger cars or SUVs, but this way the real users get hit with the expense of PROPER maintenance. Since the "Big Boys" are using the roads and bridges to generate revenue for the truck lines, they need to pay a bigger share of the overall bill.
Commie.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
|
An element of infrastructure deterioration here in LA that has begun to reveal itself and is certain to get much worse is under the street pipes. Water mains are the first to go, and in most cases there is zero documentation as to where they are, making repairs "challenging." But with a water main break all you get is flooding and maybe a few people electrocuted in areas with underground electrical service.
Wait until the gas mains start going.
Or in a very possible scenario one gets cut during a water main repair. This possibility caused lengthy delays in repairing a recent North Hollywood water main break, the crews knew there were gas mains in close proximity but did not know exactly where they were.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2014 - 08:10am PT
|
DMT-
I'm not making a generalization that all roads should be Toll Roads; simply those requiring almost constant repair due to extremely heavy traffic conditions.
The other problem now is increased fuel efficiency on automobiles has resulted in reduced the tax revenue created by gasoline taxes at the pump. This led to Oregon suggesting a "tracking device" be fitted to private cars to charge mileage fees, which I find highly objectionable. I don't care to allow anyone the capability to track my whereabouts constantly.
Austria has a windshield sticker required for Autobahn use in addition to toll charges, which amounts to ~$40 a year for private automobiles and correspondingly higher fees for trucks based on their tonnage. After leaving Italy on the Brenner Pass Autostrada, there's a entry station in Austria collecting a fee of Eu 8.50 (roughly equivalent to $12.00) at the entrance to the system; no other fees are subsequently collected at the "exits" since they don't have exit stations. I didn't count the number of lanes, but it was at least 8-10 to permit rapid transit through the border crossing.
Perhaps an answer to your previous objections about being delayed by toll stations would be the transponder lanes for those using the same section of toll road frequently? They don't have to stop fully, since upon entry to the lane, the transponder sends a signal to open the gate.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 08:27am PT
|
No delays on a modern toll road. Frequent prepay at a discount and display a sticker or rfid, others get their plate snapshot and get a bill in the mail they can pay online ir by mail.
aint no gates
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2014 - 09:02am PT
|
Locker-
The F35 program is a great example of what you are talking about. A "jack of all trades" fighter that is outperformed by the Russian and Chinese built aircraft costing far less to build. And such a deal! "Only" $325 Million apiece!! The combined Air Force, Navy, and Marine aviation units are after 850 of these near-worthless POS airplanes. After doing the math, that's a miniscule sum of "only" $276 Billion.
|
|
slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 09:06am PT
|
My infrastructure sure faild...2 hips and knee replaced yesterday
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 09:47am PT
|
Build a lot less billion dollar Jets/ships/bombs and stuff...
Use that money for the roads...
Might I suggest funding a fleet of modern firefighting aircraft instead of
the ragtag mishmash of 40 year old POS's we have now? For the cost of
ONE POS F35 you could buy 8 C-130's! For the cost of one wing
of F35's we could darken the skies above a forest fire with C-130's.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2014 - 09:56am PT
|
Reilly-
A fleet of used and "obsolescent" DC-10's could do it even better!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 10:03am PT
|
Broke, I respectfully disagree. The C-130 cannot be matched for short field,
low/slow, maneuverability, reliability, and operating costs. The greatest
aircraft evah IMHO, that is, since the DC-3. ;-)
ps
Plus there are many many more parts available for Hercs.
(I'm also quite biased against the DC-10 as my mum's second husband was on
AA Flight 191 at Chicago)
|
|
Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 10:14am PT
|
I may lean right, but when it comes to the basic infrastructure our society needs, the income tax is the better funding mechanism. It is a progressive tax (properly structured). Tolls are a very regressive tax that puts too much of a burden on the lower wage workers. The proliferation of fees and pay to play or pay to use is just a way to disguise the total impact of taxes.
I think a much bigger dose of transparency and simplicity is in order. The current generations seem unwilling to pay for the maintenance and improvements in the infrastructure that the previous generations left for us. From the crumbling bridges that will not withstand a tiny smack (I-5 bridge over the Skagit fell into the river) or can't withstand an earthquake (I think about that 2 x a day while sitting in horrible traffic on I-5 over the Columbia)to the USFS and NPS neglect of our public lands, to the water mains breaking all over town, it is so disappointing to see knee jerk rejection of any projects. I remain adamantly opposed to building anything new or adding any public lands until we commit ourselves to maintaining what we have. No new toys until you take care of the old toys.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 10:33am PT
|
I may lean right, but when it comes to the basic infrastructure our society needs, the income tax is the better funding mechanism
Seamstress, I would agree with you regarding what economists call "merit goods." We define those as goods and services that we believe everyone deserves, such as education, basic necessities of life, etc. Unfortunately, financing infrastructure through income taxes creates a perverse economic incentive. Ideally, anyone using a highway, for example, should be charged the marginal cost of that use. A fully-loaded Class 8 tractor-trailer should pay significantly more per mile than a motorcylist, for example.
Although I haven't looked at the literature lately, I would hazard a guess that commercial users wear out infrastructure more than anyone else. If so, using an income tax to finance infrastructure subsidizes commerce that uses infrastructure, and would lead to its overuse. Fuel taxes measure marginal cost of infrastructure imperfectly, and tolls create substantial transactions costs, but either method comes much closer to having the users bear the true costs of their use than does an income tax.
It all comes down to the basic issue set forth earlier: we all want infrastructure, but too many want someone else to pay for it.
John
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 10:41am PT
|
8 C-130's! For the cost of one wing
of F35's we could darken the skies above a forest fire with C-130's.
You don't even need to buy any new ones!
The AF has decommissioned several squadrons of H models in the last couple of years, not to mention sending hundreds of E models to the bone yard.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
|
DMT-
You obviously need to reevaluate my position: I never have asked for anyone else to pay for my use of ANYTHING! By the way, the roads in Wyoming, other than I-80, the truck major thoroughfare, are generally in excellent condition compared to say...Colorado. Our state ISN'T bankrupt and continues to run a budget surplus nearly every year. The existing Interstates are continually under repair, but the original routing and style of construction...as elsewhere commented upon...was done "on the cheap."
My comment was strictly a general observation of damage being done by the "big rigs" everywhere. I'd ally myself with John Elezerian's view about user-use, user-pays. Progressive Income taxes are right out of the Communist Manifesto, by the way.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
|
hey there say, brokendownclimber and all...
was curious was this title was about...
i don't travel much, so i can't chip in, but, as to
seamstress and JEleazarian--some good shares here that
i understand what you mean...
say, i am not sure??
will ask my friend from england, i think she said, one time,
that there is some kind of a fee??/tax or something, that motorist
pay for 'their use of the roads' ???
(does anyone know what i am trying to remember, if you are from england??)
however, from what she said, they do not repay for a new license, each year?
but perhaps?? do this, instead... however, even THEN, she said too,
that they have road repair troubles, ongoing, in some areas, at that, as well...
hard stuff to ponder, as, we use these road, etc, and never much think about how very lucky we are, to have them, and how grateful we are, when they work, having no potholes, etc... :( or bridge troubles...
i do not know what they do here, in mich, but they are constantly fixing roads, around here, all season, or, they'd be a huge mess in winter, due to the potholes from either snow? melt, or snowblowers, or whatever...
wheww, you ought to see them, after winter, :O
some areas are hard to put up with, but you can tell the difference when it is done, but, as to another 'however' --due to money, of course, and who knows what, as to 'say so': there are many roads that get over looked, at some local neighborhoods, though the 'through traffic' at least, works...
very interesting trying to learn all this, but hard to understand some of it... :( with time, all things break down, and it DOES make you wonder, as to the future generations, and all of this...
well, i just posted, as i was curious what was going on here... i know, did not have much to offer, but just shared a few thoughts that you all
triggered...
carry on... :)
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
|
"New efforts include $518 million in loans for 22 electric projects from the U.S. Department of Agriculture that will build 5,600 miles of electrical lines in rural areas and improve the electric grid."
According to the USDA, the funding is part of nearly $50 billion that the agency has invested in infrastructure improvements since 2009... to Texas, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma and South Dakota.
The Dept of Ag has absolutely no business being involved in electrical power, which it still does thru the Rural Electrification project, which was supposed to be a Temporary subsidized project in the 40's to bring power to farmers. They all got power about 50 years ago, yet the subsidies march on each year. Now they have added bringing subsidized broadband to rural areas. Farmers can already get satellite internet; they just don't want to pay for it when they can feed on it out of the public trough. But rural people save many thousands of dollars per year on cheap housing. Are they going to subsidize my typical California housing costs? Are they going to subsidize the ripoff cost of broadband in most cities due to the cable company monopolies? Are they going to subsidize the shutdown of San Onofre?
"Please tax me more. I want the country in which I live to be well run and maintained. So please spend more on education, roads, and the health and well-being of my countrymen. Please spend vastly less on running our war machine. I would rather have smart kids than smart weapons."
Don't expect your taxes to get spent on something useful. That's not how we do things in California. When we raise taxes, most of it often goes to public employee "unions". These do not even meet the standard definition of what constitutes a union. Unions as we generally know them were formed because capitalist owners/employers had quite different objectives and motives than their employees. Basically the employees were exploited. None of that is true with typical public employee "unions". There is no capitalist opposition. Their managers are part of the same pay and elaborate benefits & pension plan. The employees own the state, county, & city governments. The words "public employee union" should never be put together in that phrase. Instead of "unions" they should be call public employee rackets. They are already exempt from paying Soc Sec tax. Yet they still can't pay much of their own excessive pensions. Every time we turn around we pay more money for cops, firemen, school administrators, etc. The state is about to pass a new law legalizing 99 new ways to spike public pensions. They temporarily had pretended to crack down on that for a couple years during the recession, but now are figuring times are looking good again for corruption.
"Another factor is the absolute absence of "junkers" on the road the way we see old rusted-out POS cars on the American highways."
One reason for USA junkers is that is we charge new cars much more yearly registration fee than old cars, so we are subsidizing the POS cars.
A toll or gas tax system that took the place of most registration/license fees would eliminate that subsidy. The Japanese have the opposite incentives, so people are more likely to to stop driving old cars.
"According to the NTSB, the driver causing the greatest number of accidents is usually driving ~ 5 mph slower than the traffic flow. Car won't go fast enough? Cataracts and can't see? Just "the way they drive?" Who knows?"
Clearly speeding itself on the highway should not normally be an offense, because some of the most blatant speeders are the CHP, just because they felt like it.
"Then there's the effect of corporate welfare built into any funding scheme. As an obvious example, we want to encourage "clean air" vehicles, so we charge fees based on fuel purchased, rather than miles driven. While some may justify these incentives as worth the economic distortion, they nonetheless involve government policy that shifts costs from some industries to others. Not all of these costs shift are benign, but each is terribly difficult to undo."
It would be very easy to undo the free ride given to clean cars in carpool lanes, if we wanted to. Why does a 2006 Prius get to drive in a carpool lane with one person, and not a new Prius? That might have been a worthwhile incentive at one time, but that is no reason that the benefit should continue forever. At any time we could just say your special privilege no longer exist, and you need 2 people to use the carpool lane.
The free ride given to electric and phev cars (don't pay gax tax) is a problem.
" When the smoke cleared, the only methods of finance that were both practical and bore at least some relationship to economic reality were fuel taxes and ton-mile charges. So much for a sophisticated study!"
One thing that has changed since then: smart meters that could make tolls much easier and more fair. All drivers could be required to have an electronic time + mileage meter, just like many toll roads and bridges already use.
"The other problem now is increased fuel efficiency on automobiles has resulted in reduced the tax revenue created by gasoline taxes at the pump. This led to Oregon suggesting a "tracking device" be fitted to private cars to charge mileage fees, which I find highly objectionable. I don't care to allow anyone the capability to track my whereabouts constantly. "
We might need a constitutional amendment that says the tracking device can only track mileage, not position. As I picture it, it might have to know your last and your latest position for a brief period. It would then quickly calculate your distance, time of day pricing rate, and charge you for that short segment. Once it has charged you for that segment it would permanently delete all time and position information. However, that will make it impossible to solve any payment disputes, since all the data would be gone. It could just track total mileage, which could be doublechecked yearly, with spot checks of some sort to prevent fraud (hacking). Another scheme might say that every segment of every road is assigned a price category (say A to Z) based on location, expense, traffic load (charge extra for rush hour). Then each meter wouldn't have to store where you were, just that you drove 8 miles at rate A, + 6 miles of rate E, etc.
Ss: "I may lean right, but when it comes to the basic infrastructure our society needs, the income tax is the better funding mechanism. It is a progressive tax (properly structured). Tolls are a very regressive tax that puts too much of a burden on the lower wage workers. The proliferation of fees and pay to play or pay to use is just a way to disguise the total impact of taxes. "
JE: " Seamstress, I would agree with you regarding what economists call "merit goods." We define those as goods and services that we believe everyone deserves, such as education, basic necessities of life, etc. Unfortunately, financing infrastructure through income taxes creates a perverse economic incentive. Ideally, anyone using a highway, for example, should be charged the marginal cost of that use. A fully-loaded Class 8 tractor-trailer should pay significantly more per mile than a motorcylist, for example.
I agree with JE on that. Why should anyone who doesn't drive subsidize anyone else, rich or poor, who chooses to drive a lot? The fairest system is to charge ALL users full price. Otherwise you are giving people an incentive to drive, by not charging them the full cost. In return, adjust the earned+unearned income tax / Earned Income Tax Credit / Soc. Sec tax to compensate for the road/gas fee price and keep the overall tax system progressive.
One problem with the US having few toll roads and low gas taxes is that it has subsidized and encouraged lots of driving, much of it to outlying sprawl housing development where people drive a lot to get anywhere. This has been a wacky subsidy for 70 years now, and one of the main causes of sprawl. More cheap driving causes even more lack of upkeep to infrastructure. Reasonable gas taxes + tolls should be on the typical level used in Europe.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2014 - 08:09am PT
|
^^^^^^ Good post.
That post involved some thought, but not all of it is internally consistent and has numerous "positive outcome assumptions" built in. i.e. Progressive and scaled taxes via income tax to deal with older cars.
The very last thing we need is an increasingly complex tax code! I also disagree with previous posters who claim that toll roads are a regressive tax, and that low income earners are taxed unfairly. In the case I previously mentioned of the Italian Autostradas, there is a perfectly good and well-maintained highway system paralleling the newer thoroughfares that are without any tolls. The Big Rigs all use the Autostrada for reduction in travel time, and anyone travelling long distances from country to country also takes advantage of the high speed network of roads.
One other issue not mentioned earlier, and that's the relative cost of obtaining a drivers license in Europe. To become a licensed driver in Germany or Italy costs ~ $2,000. Insurance rates are also extremely high, so those individuals driving aren't the "working poor," or the "welfare class." On the other hand, Americans regard automobiles as "throwaway" items, and change ownership more frequently than they change their sox. To that end, American vehicles are designed and manufactured with built-in obsolescence, and with limited life spans. Yes, there are indeed older cars on the European highways, but each and every one is well maintained.
The licensing standards are also a lot tighter; the physical requirements are significantly higher; that's compared to the "see lightning and hear thunder" standards I've seen applied to the elderly in this country.
My bottom line is that I enjoy driving on good roads, and not having to play the games of speed limits arbitrarily imposed by the states. For that privilege I'm willing to spend my precious $$$ to do so.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 09:14am PT
|
One other issue not mentioned earlier
Mio amico! I would say 50% of Americans would not qualify either physically,
mentally, or economically to drive in Europe. How great would that be?
Granted, it ain't easy driving in Italia...
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 09:40am PT
|
"Please tax me more. I want the country in which I live to be well run and maintained."
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Because there's no way to spend current revenue more wisely.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2014 - 10:00am PT
|
Reilly-
I had a good laugh at that sign; I was lost frequently while driving, other than on the Autostrada. Getting lost in the "old town" districts isn't fun or easy to exit. I got lost in Bolzano 2 or 3 times...saw a lot of otherwise "interesting stuff," but was also frustrating.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2014 - 10:15am PT
|
Reilly-
I think tighter physical standards are definitely "in order" since there are many individuals currently driving who pose a significant risk to everyone else on the roads. Part of the European cost of getting licensed is the requirement for a professionally taught driving school, followed by stringent testing.
I realize too, that my driving days are numbered, as they are for everyone. My personal standard for continuing driving is my annual FAA medical exam (Class 2). When I no longer qualify for a Class 2, I'll consider my driving as the next step to geezerdom.
My father was a case for denial of driving privileges after a certain point is reached. I bought the old man a car back in 1996; it was a Dodge Neon, something small that he could still park without tearing a hunk off his car or the nearest other vehicle. His vision wasn't too bad but decreasing mental awareness began to tell, and by the time he died in 1998, the car was totally trashed: it looked like one of those carnival deals for a car-smash. He'd run it out of oil and transmission fluid...never maintained it, and had allowed his insurance to lapse. I took it away from him when I heard from the bank that his insurance lapsed. The value was GONE, and it was strictly a salvage operation.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 10:40am PT
|
I hear ya on that, me mum is 88 but still driving better than one might expect.
I'm glad she sold the Jag as it isn't as painful to see the dings accumulate
on the Pontiac. To paraphrase Mr T:
"I pity the fool shopping carts!"
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 11:14am PT
|
The employees own the state, county, & city governments.
Not necessarily true.
Here in LA, in the last mayoral election, the candidate strongly backed by unions LOST. I would have considered LA to be a union town.
|
|
ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
|
Well DMT, I moved to Ca. almost 6 yrs ago and I can't exactly agree with your adulation of Ca. drivers. When my Colorado friends ask me what it is like driving in Ca. I say "everyone is absolutely sure that They have the right of way!"
I do however agree with your right to drive the way you want and it sounds like you and I drive a lot the same. When people bitch about how slow I'm driving, I usually say that I drive the same as I would if there was a policeman right behind me, can you say the same? (usually 2 1/2 mph over the speed limit, I know, it's pretty OCD of me).
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
|
Californians are among the very best drivers
Until they go on vacation.
They drive like morons here .....
|
|
ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
|
Do use my blinkers, I think people in Co. use them more than here. The thing that freaks me out are the guys on motorcycles shooting the lane gap. I'm really surprised I don't see more of them cold cocked by rearview mirrors.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
|
Californians think they are the best drivers
That's why they get onto the freeway doing 45 and then immediately move to the left a couple of lanes.
|
|
rincon
Trad climber
Coarsegold
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
|
DMT, it'd be interesting to see the back-up you'd cause if you tried to drive From Palmdale to L.A. on Angeles Crest Highway on a typical weekday morning around 6:00am. Probably would be a mile or more long behind you, and wide open in front! People commute through there and the speed limit is meaningless to them. I'm what you'd consider a selfish speeder, but those folks eat me for breakfast. Even the gardener rigs with hoses and leafblowers hanging off the sides go like bats from hell. Locally it's refered to as "The Palmdale 500".
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
|
Don't expect your taxes to get spent on something useful. That's not how we do things in California.
Good thing the rest of the country doesn't spend like California.
Just spent the last four hours travelling up to Horse Pens 40 on some of the smoothest roads, like a drop of water sliding over a windowpane.
Alabama does not have much going on but they sure know how to take care of their roads.
|
|
landcruiserbob
Trad climber
PUAKO, BIG ISLAND Kohala Coast
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2014 - 02:52am PT
|
Okay not sure you opened your eyes in Italy but their tunnels and bridges are spalling to death.
I do agree with Germany, Switzerland , and Austria do have amazing roads.
The American west discovered mag chloride and it has pretty much destroyed all of the concrete...
Oh well jobs forever...
Something funny about Europe, lots of road construction with automated flaggers... That would never work on the mainland.
I was stopped for an hour driving into St. Moritz last year; just an automated flagger. Americans would drive around that in about 5 min.
Aloha
Rg
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2014 - 08:27am PT
|
I did notice the tunnels in Italy, and I noticed NO spalling. The tunnels are remarkable engineering achievements, as are the elevated portions of the Autostrada.
Most of the rural highways in the Western USA are asphalt; Colorado still has some concrete highways, but Magnesium Chloride isn't a problem.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 109 of total 109 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!