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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 12, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
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Obviously I'm just cherry-picking, but that's a pretty tasty cherry.
Yeah, pretty tasty when taken entirely out of context. LOL
If you're reading that to suggest that Locke's idea was that people are to be subjugated to government whims and violations of their rights, well.... LOL
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Sep 13, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
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If you're reading that to suggest that Locke's idea was that people are to be subjugated to government whims and violations of their rights, well.... LOL
Nope, just that once entering into a governed society, even his idealized one, Locke recognized that a person will inevitably find his liberty confined. The basic right remains, but the freedom to do "whatsoever he thought for the preservation of himself" is lost once he leaves the state of nature. Not out of context at all, and contrasting well with your assertions.
There really is a lot of fascinating reading in there, thank you for introducing me to the original works, the brief synopses I'd read decades ago weren't nearly adequate to appreciate the brilliance of the man.
TE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 13, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
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contrasting well with your assertions.
When you read more, you'll find that Locke was crystal clear that "in society" a man's rights are not "constrained" in the sense you are saying. A man merely agrees to be intentional about not stomping on the toes of others in exchange for others not stomping on his toes. And he agrees to submit the to authority of the "society" that adjudicates over disputes. There is NO sense in which a man "gives up" any (negative) rights upon joining society. And negative rights need no "constraining," as no conflict between them is logically possible.
Further, Locke emphasizes that, although people tend to be willing to suffer a good deal of abuses of their rights before rising up against their government (people do love a good status quo!), the right of secession (both individually and as a group) is one of the most fundamental inalienable rights. Neither revolt nor secession are trivial, and people do not engage in either trivially (as we see in our own society). But it is among the rights of people to do either at will and thereby return themselves to the state of nature.
Of course, profound practical problems and implications await anyone trying, given that our government provides no "room" for anyone to secede. But we're talking rights at present.
I'm glad you're enjoying partaking of the original sources!
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 28, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
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With results like this I suggest that we give more guns to children.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Werner is a bigoted a-hole.
Ron is plain stupid.
Hey you tards, both you guys got your pay days working for the government. That's laws paying your bills and making you feel all important. Climbers are not a bright bunch.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 17, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
If I ever see a gun in a restaurant, I leave with a word with management about how I never see the inside of their restaurant ever again.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 18, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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I got news for you, Jingy.
Unless you're eating at some corporate joint like Red Lobster or Applebee's, there IS a gun in the restaurant. Maybe more than one.
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