Williamson Rock 8/6/14 review - access

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Messages 41 - 60 of total 66 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 7, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
Here's some relevant background on the Adventure Pass:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2350994/Is-the-National-Forest-FEE-project-dead
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 7, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
... and what??? our stupid Adventure Pass doesn't count?;)

To clarify, I'm against the fee/permit thing. Sounds like an enforcement nightmare.

Good luck keeping climbers off the Stream and London Wall unless they are prepared to chop all the routes.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 7, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
Of course, my dog wouldn't be allowed.

See? It's not all bad.

And I agree with the Monrovians about the new HQ.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Aug 7, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
My guess is the bolts will be chopped on permanently closed climbs (within 10m = 33' of the stream includes Mushroom, London, Stream, Mushroom, Stash. Action #1 seems to also close anything on the south side of the stream even if it's more than 33' away, since you're not supposed to cross the stream, such as the Far side, Little Tokyo, etc.

Climbers who want the rest of Williamson open should accept that. The only other option is not chopping them, so then someone might still climb them, and get the whole area closed down.

--There are enough moderate routes elsewhere, such as the main wall, summit block, etc, not just near the stream.

    a new permit will be needed every time you go there. They don't say what the fee will be. The online cost of the reservation system alone is $6 each. Only above that would anything go to the ANF. If they install a new bathroom and repave the parking, and put in an overly expensive trail, they can claim those are improvements that climbers need to pay for.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 7, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
What, the bolts are bothering the frogs? Seems like the chopping would too.
rincon

Trad climber
Coarsegold
Aug 7, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
First of all, I can't figure out what the parking quota is supposed to accomplish? Only 30 cars per day...what about the cars for people hiking Mt Williamson, or day hiking on the PCT? There is no shortage of parking spots that is for sure. Currently you can park all along hwy 2 and in the many turn outs. Look forward to a bunch of no parking signs going up.

Can you imagine that many people are going to bother to get an advance reservation just for a quick sport climbing session? I don't think it'd be worth the hassle myself...just to go there and deal with some ranger rick and all the rules...and they're taking away most of the best climbs.
And no restrictions on the PCT, except now you have to poop 100' from the stream, and bury it...not sure why that wasn't already the rule.

Good posts splater!
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 8, 2014 - 07:00am PT
There sure is a lot of speculative grousing going on about this. I'm going to wait and see what actually happens before I complain about it.

I'm surprised at all the negativity. This is good new people. Willi is reopening. Don't like the regulations? Keep climbing wherever you've been climbing for the last 8 years.

Just a guess, but I suspect the pullouts will stay open for parking to facilitate hikers.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2014 - 07:40am PT
I've been working on my letter and I've hit on an idea.

Some land managers just don't know how to deal with rock climbers. Someone qualified needs do extensive research and write a manual for land managers to use in dealing with climbing areas.

IF you have the time to read it, here is my first rough draft of the things they should know when making decisions on what to do:

1) Willamson Rock is not considered a high quality climbing area. It is metamorphic gneiss with a decomposing quality to it. Climbers prefer granite and rock that is stable. Some parts of Williamson Rock have the desirable quality but most does not.

2) There are many options around the region with climbing at Idylwild in the San Jacinto Mtns considered to be the high quality area in summer months. If Williamson Rock is closed, we will go somewhere else. It would be nice if it was open because we like variety.

3) Convenience to access determines popularity. Climbers can tend to be social and group together where access is easy. When this happens, land managers may experience the need to manage. Williamson Rock is close to the road and the Short Trail, built by climbers, provided quick access. If that trail is closed and only the Long Trail is allowed for access, this will reduce the number of climbers. Very few climbers would consider walking all the way from the parking lot at Krakta Ridge. They would simply choose to go some where else.

4) A climbing area can become popular for a period of time. But then the popularity goes away, almost always. The rise in popularity can usually be traced to one person or a small group of persons who put up new routes. Media promotion can cause this or the publication of a guide book. When an area gets too crowded, many climbers choose to go elsewhere. Thus popularity can hit a critical mass where people have to wait to get on climbs, at which point decline begins. One way to manage and over abundance of climbers in an area is to do nothing and the matter will sort out with a natural decline in popularity.

5) Climbers like variety. They don’t like to do the same old climbs over and over. The average climber might visit a place like Mt Williamson once or just a few times a year.

6) Climbers will not pay a special fee to climb on public lands. There are many reasons for this. The proposed fee system in the current plan is doomed to failure. It is likely there would be an organized boycott so any personnel or infrastructure would go to waste. An EIA that does not include a survey of this would be incomplete.

7) In the past Williamson Rock may have achieved a level of popularity with Rock Climbers that caused an overwhelming amount of traffic and problems for land managers. This is likely never to happen again since this boom was driven by new route development. Land managers at Joshua Tree National Park have successfully implemented new route bans to persevere natural resources and control overcrowding in sensitive areas.


IF you do choose to read all of this I welcome suggestions. Feel free to take from this and make it our own.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 8, 2014 - 07:48am PT
They would simply choose to go some where else.

Isn't that the point? Then the 'land managers' can stay in their cushy offices in the Taj Mahal,
which they are so richly deserve according to some.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 8, 2014 - 08:04am PT
Regarding the frogs.

The San Gabriels are full of countless canyons and streams which are difficult, often nearly impossible to get to. Even John Muir commented on how inaccessible these mountains are. But the USFS is using a study of a short stretch of a roadside stream to determine the health of this species. Seems like a stretch to me.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 8, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Is the permit thing on a daily basis or do you apply for a permit for the whole "season" (sorry I didn't have time to read the links yet)?

I see people saying over and over, that the "fee" is for climbing. It is not. It is for reserving a permit to access the area.

If you think this is a slippery slope, you are decades late. Think Whitney, Think Rainier, think Half-Dome. Think permits for backpacking.

You will pay the same fee as the person who gets a permit to go have a pic-a-nic lunch down at the rock. The fee is not for climbing, and saying so simply means that your comments will otherwise be dismissed.

HOWEVER, the suggestion above, is interesting. They have such a system on Rainier, where you can get a 1 week permit, or a season permit.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 8, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
No fee-based access to USFS land!

Tell a friend! (And your congressional representative!)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 8, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
Another regressive tax on the working class.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 8, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
I'd like to climb at Williamson some day.
scrubbing bubbles

Social climber
Uranus
Aug 8, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
Right!! How foolish that the biologists chose THIS stream to assess the health of a population of rare and threatened frogs !!

Couldn't the biologists already see the 100s of sport climbers stomping in the stream and shitting near it, plus their dozens of sh#t-spewing dogs....like, every weekend?

Much wiser for those federal biologists to study a threatened species in an ultra remote location, where humans never set foot




^^^
...sarcasm
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 9, 2014 - 09:13am PT
in 1994 one of those fuking yellow frogs bit me on my leg

you've got six legs?
certainly suggests the hypothesis you love flying around sh#t...

as for user fees, ask your 'Gunks climbing friends about that... fact of life there.

Toula's Rock 'n' Road gives Williamson three stars (the same number as Pinnacles... JTree gets four stars, as did Yosemite, Tuolumne...)

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 9, 2014 - 09:18am PT
this is not new, either... use fees were introduced starting in 2004 (at least) and discussed in the forum... probably not many of you were posting then

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=48006

locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!
Aug 9, 2014 - 09:21am PT


Credit: locker
...





sowr

Trad climber
CA
Aug 9, 2014 - 10:45am PT
Thanks for posting Chris. I think any change of state would be beneficial, not only to climbing but would perhaps alleviate pressure on other local crags - Holcomb comes to mind.

I think we need to prove that we can be worked with, and that we are cooperative as a community. This angry young man stuff seems cool but it's going to bite us. We need to network and form relationships with the authorities.

I think the notion that a limited opening of Williamson to climbing would reduce crowds at other crags might be used as one of your points.

Good idea to use only the long trail.

It should be up to us to help educate visitors to the crag. This is a critical point, as a lot of climbers are going to be coming straight from the gym.

I'm happy to help in writing things up etc.
scrubbing bubbles

Social climber
Uranus
Aug 9, 2014 - 11:30am PT
Bottom line?

The mylf's have existed in Little Rock Creek for likely a 100,000 years, maybe much, much longer. And quite a few sport climbers are willing to see them extirpated from the area for the sake of a couple dozen streamside clip-ups.

How does that make them any different from the yahoos on motorized dirt bikes that ride over rare desert plants, or the drunks who blast road signs with their deer rifles?

Climbers respect peregrine closures, what do they have against frogs?
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