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| Messages 1 - 146 of total 146 in this topic |
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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You're trolling in the right place this time, Wes.
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overwatch
climber
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Ahhh, The's latest gem...thanks for posting
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nope. No rights.
As a result, the third ascent can pull the bolts out entirely.
Then what?
Come on. You can go deeper than this.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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Take a nap Wes, you'll feel better.
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thewesleysummers
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2014 - 08:23am PT
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I feel fine.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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You said you were tired Wes.
Anyway, why not make a list of the routes that you feel need bolts and discuss it within your local community? Have you run out of stuff to climb?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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have you ever put up a first ascent?
installed a sport route?
anything?
or has your climbing experience largely been formed by looking for "four-star" routes in a guide that shows where the route goes, includes an accurate bolt count, indicates the length of the route and not only gives you the overall difficulty but also where that "crux" is, along with providing details on how to get there and what you'll find.
what the FA establishes is a style that worked to create the route.
in the modern world, "route consumers" have little knowledge, interest or respect for the first ascent team, the "route creators."
those four shown in the image (you did get permission to use the image, didn't you? or did you exercise "your right" to just copy it off the internet?) have a series of rather amazing first ascents done in a style which was evolving over the time they first started climbing to what climbing has become today. I know all four of them, one has died, all approachable on what their intentions were. have you ever asked them what they were thinking?
one famously exhorts "just go out and climb" and forget about all this guide stuff. where would you be if you had no guides? is that your right too? the right to have a guide?
one still climbs at a very high level, you would hope to achieve,
one doesn't climb anymore.
they don't own the rock, the routes, the rules, they just climbed the routes with the boldness required by adopting a style that seems to require something more than just the physical capability to do the routes, it requires a mastery of the mental aspects of climbing, and a conviction that they could pull of the climb.
they wouldn't say you couldn't employee any style you want, they might look askance at the claim of an ascent of a route they did 40 years ago with a style that did not at least equal their own. after all, they did.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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A bunch of trad lines were sportified at one of my local crags last year without consulting with the FA. The most disturbing aspect was that it was implied on ontarioclimbing.com that approval was asked for, and had been granted. Pointing out that was not true got my posts deleted and I was banned by the admin.
Ironically, the FA said he might have been fine with it had he been asked, but has now suggested to me that I chop the bolts. Despite how I feel about this I've never done that and am not about to start now.
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thewesleysummers
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2014 - 08:55am PT
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So Ed... what you say is very reasonable..
I guess what youre saying is, it wouldn't be frowned upon if I retrobolt some routes put up by those 4 climbers you talked about? They did it in their style, now I can do it in mine? Great!!! Thanks Ed, I wish more people were like you!
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hagerty
Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
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A reminder for some:
that blog is total parody and satire.
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thewesleysummers
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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^ who are you to say that? Please don't speak on my behalf, as you are wrong and slanderous.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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First ascentionists should be flogged and banned from insurance and healthcare.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Another hilarious blog post Wes, so sorry that everyone does not see it for the parody it is. Maybe someday you will be accepted as a satirist, it is just not happening yet.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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The first ascentionist may be due respect.
Rights - no. The concept of "rights" has been stretched beyond recognition. You can't have rights to a route when it isn't your property.
We are all guests on public or private property. There are very few crags that are owned by climbers, and those are owned by a group, not a single person. The first ascentionist should always consider the owners rights and consider those that may follow, the wider community.
As time marches on and many first ascentionists are no longer here, it will be interesting to see how these conversations evolve.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Update old fixed gear without adding any more.
The FA didn't use old rotting gear...
Seamstress, would we have to use tied hooks on the Trap Rock?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Do troll bloggers have any rights?
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ECF
Big Wall climber
So Far East I might as well be dead
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A right is an agreed upon allowance to do something.
It is not the ability to prevent others from doing something, that is tyranny.
Only people with a grossly overinflated sense of self- worth would assume that their actions are infallible and not subject scrutiny, reinterpretation, or deviation.
Do your FA. Say what you want about those that follow you. Chop bolts if it makes you feel better, but wouldn't it be better style to just go do another FA?
Grow, evolve, gain wisdom. That is the path of an enlightened mind. Flinging sheet on those that follow is what primates do.
And...
They have the right to remain silent, but so few choose to do so.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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sure, you can go an re-bolt anything you want...
but I doubt you'd be able to withstand the consequences, and I'm sure that your work wouldn't last very long...
and I highly doubt that you are hard enough to actually do the bolting (though it would be very fun to see your ass busted for using a power drill)
go forth and troll! if you actually even got outside and did what you threatened it would be infinitely more impressive than you ability to sit in front of a terminal and type in your wet-dream fantasy, a fantasy that you are incapable of realizing, and that you actually have no interest or desire in realizing.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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keyboard courage, dogs bark the caravan moves on
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ryankelly
Trad climber
el portal
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Its hard to take you seriously on an ethics post where you use other people's photos without credit or permission.
This whole thing smells like a troll.
When you climb bolted routes from the ground up you are committing to the climb as it is: run-out, dangerous, safe, whatever. If you want a sure thing you can probably spend your entire life climbing lines of natural splitters that have a minimum of hardware. Then you will save yourself the handwork, time, and money that altering routes requires.
Additionally, because you are generalizing about all climbing areas your thoughts are at best vague abstractions that have little to do with individual and diverse climbing areas. Each place comes with its own individual ethics. Sense of place and history is key to the practice of rock climbing and one of the things that gives it meaning. Climbers connect directly with the Earth Body through touch and movement and community.
Also, the climbing world already has one sarcastic, parody loving writer named James and your bland imitation of his style is kind of like that way you posted that StoneMaster photo that doesn't belong to you.
In any case , thanks for the five minutes of entertainment away from my schoolwork.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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At my local crag, some of the first ascenders are forming a property rights LLC / 501c4 Someone has got to defend our inherent right to continued use of this range without interference. It is based on lessons learned from NV militia success, and the bank bailout. Each time a route is altered, the gov will pay us to restore its cultural integrity status.
Although it will be nominally non-profit, numerous financial benefits will accrue to investors.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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wesleysummers, what is your take on free-soloing at the gym?
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thewesleysummers
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2014 - 10:27am PT
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I don't allow it in my gym.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Ed. Lol
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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no plastic free-soloing? doesn't sound real ballsy.
i was on a bolted trail leading to a bolted climb. was it excessive? no. clipping was a pain in the ass though because i can walk 120 ft. pretty quick and the rope got dirty. made the day really long.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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I bet Wesley's last name isn't even summers.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Lame Troll.....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Those doing FAs are gods and have absolute rights to their creations, just as God has absolute right to His.
Such gods should defend their FAs with all means necessary, including rocket launchers, grenades, or whatever. Such spirited defense is the ONLY way to keep FAs pristine!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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what the FA establishes is a style that worked to create the route.
ed,
climbers did not "create" anything.
Nature created the route, and some climbers just happened to climb it first. unless of course you chipped holds and left your "mark".
seems like your emotions got involved and took over your intellect.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Toprope FAs are imaginary.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the route exists without climbers?
an interesting concept.
perhaps there is a discussion of "ownership" that would be interesting...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/property/
e.g.
Though the Earth…be common to all Men, yet every Man has a Property in his own Person. This no Body has any Right to but himself. The Labour of his Body, and the Work of his Hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever then he removes out of the State that Nature hath provided, and left it in, he hath mixed his Labour with, and joyned to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his Property. It being by him removed from the common state Nature placed it in, it hath by this labour something annexed to it, that excludes the common right of other Men. (Locke 1988 [1689], II, para. 27)
Locke's response to the OP question would be: Yes, they own the route.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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No rights, that's why some dude is selling other dudes' old bolts here on ST. I think retro bolting things is a good idea. It drives lunatics on this site nuts.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Rights to wear tights? NO!
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overwatch
climber
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Great first day of posting, Ronnie. Way to splash onto the scene
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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I think retro bolting things is a good idea.
Anything harder than A1 is contrived and total bullsh#t. Retro-bolt all of it. Who gives a damn that some FAer will whine about it.
Is this the make up a lie about how you really feel about ethics and style thread?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Moose, They might be legit if you wrote "Moose was here" with a sharpie or spray paint.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Do first ascentionists have any rights?
They have the right to be proud (or depressed) about the way they did them, keeping in mind the prevailing social environment of the time.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Does it count?
That marks the territory.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Ronaldo, and your people didn't exist before cartoons on color TV?
so you're sort of Ronaldo viene tarde a la fiesta
by the way Ron, you do like the "Mr. Potato head" schtick, don't you...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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All the time growing up we believed that the first ascent crated a route, which is a different thing than just climbing the rock, at least when bolts were involved. The "route" involved or necessitated varying degrees of commitment, jeopardy, courage, skill, mental mastery, and so forth, and was in essence a challenge set down by the first ascentionists for others to try and meet - or not. You either sacked it up and met the challenge, or you didn't. End of argument. We could endlessly argue the merits of sacking it up, but any way you shake it, if you didn't accept the challenge as is and instead backed off, there was never any question that, despite all the rational arguments to the contrary, the person who backed off simply wasn't up to the route. No harm there. Nobody does them all. I certainly did not.
But verily, and slowly, a "route" became simply a climb on rock once a preponderance of people backed off and balked. The route was asking too much from people, more than a route had any right to ask, and so the route had to be ignored and reduced to a climb, where anything goes, and all manner of poultroons granted their own selves the rights to do exactly as they pleased. And boldness be damned.
The one incontrovertible thing about those who either backed off or disparaged the original route is they simply were not up for the challenge that the FA proscribed. People can argue quite convincingly that there is no justification for a route they find beyond their comfort level, but the simple and indeniable fact remains: They were not up to it.
There are so few such routes left out there that nobody can argue that dumbing down the boldness on a necky route is anything but a wanton act of cowardice. Just hike over a feet Buster Brown, and keep your paws off the adult fare.
JL
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Rights! Yeah, to take credit for going where no one had gone before....and then it becomes public domain. If those that follow treat your route differently maybe Saint Peter won't allow them entrance, or, then again, maybe he will. It's just rock climbing folks....something a lot of people who pontificate here don't do anymore.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Donini, I take exception to the statement about pontificating.
I choose to bloviate when I rant!
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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That was an awesome post Mr. Long.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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1. An FA of a sport route (bolted or mostly bolted) is an act of creation. It is for others that you bolt the way. Taking time to make sure the route is worth the investment and building it in a responsible way that respects the natural resource. Make it safe, but not overly safe. The clips should be at natural stances and protect areas that reasonably need protection.
2. If you climb a route that is protected purely by natural protection, it is not all marked up by chalk showing the holds, and if you do not follow a guide to find it, you are doing an FA for yourself. More and more I tend to leave the guide in the car or at home on the shelf, or not even bother getting the guide to an area (exception; buy Supertopo guides to support this site)
People, who are competative, worry about the numbers. If you climb a lot and have guts, you will climb hard numbers and impress people, who like you, are competative.
Wise people just climb to have fun and chanllenge themselves in the beautiful out doors.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I put up this moderate route: Hyperion
http://mountainproject.com/v/hyperion/106644599
It has a 5.7- crux and 25 feet and then rambles on for another 175 feet at about 5.2 so I put the bolts 20-30 feet apart. If you can pull the crux, you don't need more protection than that. I place all bolts by hand drilling after very carefully considering the stance and area to protect.
I would be seriously annoyed if someone filled in the run-out areas. In fact, someone did add a bolt to the crux move. It was just too scary for them at 5.6+.
I recently climbed this beautiful route: Rain Dance
http://mountainproject.com/v/raindance/105741569
Same size and rating. The full rope length 2nd pitch was easy 5.5 yet the author chose to place bolts every 4-6 feet the entire length. This is why I hate power drills. It's too easy. It feels grid-bolted. Not that that is a big deal. It's just bland, no spice at all.
Do I have a right to go and collect the hardware on this upper pitch and carefully, artfully, bring it down from 15 clips to a more reasonalble 8 or 9? How would you feel if I did that?
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overwatch
climber
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Mr Long's post nutshells it for me. Nicely written. Mr Donini as well.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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They did it in their style, now I can do it in mine?
Ah yes…. Style. Therein lies the crux. Your problem, Mister Troll, is that you don't have any.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Looking for choice holds in moss and lichen, that will hopefully stay attached to the rock massive. Peering ahead to possibilities of a drilling stance, where muscles will be fatigued, clinging and drilling a bolt hole, that finally is deep enough. Momentary relief as you clip in, looking ahead again for the passage and the search for a drilling stance.
What the hell am I talking about...
Moose, I once did a top-rope FA in the gym. First on it after the route setter finished.
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craig morris
Trad climber
la
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What if the FA is a free solo? Tuolumne Meadows had a few
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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What if the FA puts in "too" many bolts...does that give later parties anymore or less "rights" to chop them?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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While I was totally trolling on my response, there is one basic truth in those who stumble along after the fact and refuse to honor the sanctity of the first ascent (a "route" does not exist, only a climb), and instead give themselves permission to reengineer the route according to their personal comfort level. And that truth is that they were not up to doing the route as they found it.
This is the one basic fact that gets glossed over by ethical or philosophical debates - all sounding so good and ritious. But the simple fact remains: Anyone changing an establised route was not up to doing it in it's original style. There is logic in wanting to retrobolt a "dangerous" route so others with less sack and courage (or stupidity, depending on POV) can enjoy the route. But ther eis little to defend such practice since "dangerous" routes are so rare and there are usually 100s or other routes that serve a person's desire to climb.
Climbing is one of the few endeavors where "style" has lost some of its meaing and significance over the decades. Again, the arguments for doing so all sound good - but that simple fact remains: I wansn't up for the route as is.
JL
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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I love hearing the rock jocks preach to the coir!
an F.A. who cares should put up stuff so people can enjoy!
almost being killed on a root is not style it's pure stupid.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Everyone's a winner.
Everyone deserves a trophy.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I am tempted to write a satiric piece on Wes' blog posting. It would be really funny, and all of you would really, really love it.
But, it would be a lot of work, with the risk of spell-checking errors created by my word processer and the confusion of mixed metaphors and non sequiturs, so you cannot make me do it.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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I get a trophy? Bestest dude?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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All the time growing up we believed that the first ascent crated a route, which is a different thing than just climbing the rock, at least when bolts were involved. The "route" involved or necessitated varying degrees of commitment, jeopardy, courage, skill, mental mastery, and so forth, and was in essence a challenge set down by the first ascentionists for others to try and meet - or not. You either sacked it up and met the challenge, or you didn't
you missed my point JL. nature created boot flake, climbers climbed it. nature such as geologic forces and erosion creates the finest lines in climbing, climbers dont create those lines, they climb them. in other words i am always more awed by what nature has provided us than what humans do to it.
these thoughts are not opposing to respecting the style of a FA. just merely a clarification of what is creation.
if you create holds, it is altering nature and in my book unacceptable. in my mind the best lines are always follwing what nature has already provided, whether it is a fine crack system or a series of smears and friction that allows humans to challenge themselves during the ascent. heop that clears things up.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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If this weren't such an obvious troll, I'd be tempted to join in seriously. Instead, I'll join in the fun (which many trolls are).
Of course a first ascentionist has rights, and John Gill has already stated them -- mostly. We retain some restrictions, even on how we accomplish a first ascent. We may not use power drills in wilderness areas, for example. Beyond that, I can summarize first ascentionists' rights the same way I would summarize international law -- might makes right.
;-)
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nice post, Kevin. When I first started climbing in 1967, there was a general consensus that not every climb was for every climber. Then, as now, bolts can make that statement untrue.
John
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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That's not true though...what if you had your bolt kit but were ten seconds late to climb the Bachar Yerian, your plan being a well protected fun sport climb. Now because someone got there before you (by 10 seconds) means you have to do it there way. When in reality you "own" as much of the route as they do...pending you're a tax paying citizen.
I know the scenario is a bit extreme, but give it thought as far as an ethical issue is concerned.
Climbing has also been fundamentally about doing what "you" want to do, not going with the grain but against it. So who's to say "bolts here" but "none here"
I try to abstain from these, but given the good hearted nature of the thread this is my trolled response.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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That's not true though...what if you had your bolt kit but were ten seconds late to climb the Bachar Yerian, your plan being a well protected fun sport climb. Now because someone got there before you (by 10 seconds) means you have to do it there way.
Travis..... at the time the B&Y was climbed, there was no such thing as a "sport climb".......
John did the B&Y in fine style, the bolts went where HE needed them to go so HE could safely do the climb.
Probably the only thing he thought about was what future climbers would think if he over-bolted it.
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Degaine
climber
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What if the FA is a foreigner?
What if the FA is a dentist?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Dr. Hartouni ('cause Ed is too small to search, and I don't know if you're reading),
Do you have a searchable index for Tuolumne?
Just how many lines was Bachar guilty of robbing from posterity?
If you've got the data, it would be interesting to know what percent of established routes (nevermind the impossible to project number of future/potential routes) people struggling to climb the grade in question will forever only be able to safely experience in abject humility as the second.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Just how many lines was Bachar guilty of robbing from posterity?
You don't need ED ..... just think about it for a second.
ZERO
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ryankelly
Trad climber
el portal
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JL,
I'm glad you put up that second post because driving across Tioga Pass today I came up with all kinds of clever responses to your initial thoughts. However, I appreciate the distinction you made between "climbs" and "routes" and find it very useful. All respect to your perspective, however I still have some thoughts.
Just a couple of days ago I was at the boulders talking with a longtime Yosemite climber about routes that turn lots of folks away. He basically thought that if you aren't up to the route you don't belong there. At first I argued then I realized that I have no need to climb routes that are too bold for me.
Things get blurry these days because so much rehearsing goes into routes before they are "sent" and then "sent" to the mags and other for profit corporations in need of continuous numerical advancement (monetary and on the Yosemite Decimal System). Exceptions do exist for many big climbs (Eric Bissel and Ethan Pringle both had awesome style on their separate sends of the FreeRider) but I'm not sure those achievements make it above the rest of the noise.
Pretty much everyone is chasing numbers of one sort or another, including myself at times.
For me, the best climbing flows from a place of freedom and connection. Comparing yourself to others and attempting to be as bold as them will only take you so far. Perhaps the fear of falling behind the vanguard is why so many dedicated climbers seem to abandon the sport after a period of time.
Communities, like ours, that focus on hero worship and the "great man" theory are often vacuous, just like the article written by the OP.
Folks who climb for the joy of discovery seem to enjoy it for their entire lives.
Events like FaceLift that bring us together face to face do a lot to prevent the type of sarcastic posturing that seems so prevalent in other situations like instagram, blogs, and SuperTopo.
See you all in the Meadow.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Folks who climb for the joy of discovery seem to enjoy it for their entire lives.
Worth repeating.
BTW,
And as a first ascensionist, I also have to worship the ground I walk on and the routes I have created. Multi-tasking at it's best, both creating routes and worshiping myself at the same time. Only the truly gifted would begin to know.
To the masses, wonder in awe. and do repeats of my greatness.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I just went to Wesley's blog and actually read his rant. It's pretty good, for a young kid today. Pretty logical.
It's a troll but it's a quality troll. A rant that many people may feel deep down inside but are afraid to speak out.
It all starts with a photo where he attempts to blaspheme some of our Yosemite heros, who, as pictured, are obviously quite wasted from smoking something.
I look at those young heros of the walls and see smart young athletes who love climbing so much they lived like beggars to climb a lot.
TheWesleySummers is certainly not of the caliber of those pictured. More he is a whiney emo shadow of these great atheletes. He is a representative of a whiney emo generation that wants their routes protected for them so they don't have to think about it. They are not pioneers, they are spoiled brats. The good news is that there is a lot of virgin territory out there and it is going to be safe from these guys until a bolder generation comes along.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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yes
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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or no
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Crazy eyes. Starts hitting self. Cries.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I do read... Dr. Melissa Ph.D.
and I don't yet have a searchable index for Tuolumne (but will soon, don't tell Eric) but I posted this a while ago:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=898272&msg=901116#msg901116
the answer to your question: 37
even though guyman is partially right:
You don't need ED ..... just think about it for a second.
ZERO
I do want to be needed, however... (if I weren't allergic to cats, probably kneaded would be enough)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Is this the "8 symptoms of climbing deprivation" thread?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Is this the "8 symptoms of climbing deprivation" thread?
Only eight? Is eight enough? Deprivation is a question of how much beer is in your (or your partners) cooler at the parking lot when a day of first ascents is coming to an end.
No beer in the cooler? Tacos and beer at a taqueria on the way home works as well to stave off deprivation. Even burgers and a coke may suffice.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Do first ascensionist have any rights?
Yes
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Whiners have rights
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Problem may be deeper.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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The rebuttal is quite subtle.
I say give the first ascentionist his due but be careful about giving more. Heraclitus long ago noted the world is always changing. And yes we give FA's existence yet we often fail to note how the derivatives are changing. Something that changes cannot be the same. The old existence has vanished other than the historical fact[and these facts too may have an attrition happening in our minds. i.e. the words we use change meanings]. So we attempt to say Pete Cleveland climbed SuperPin somewhere in here[on that rock] in 1967.
Dozens of times in the Black Hills Needles I have been belaying and the climber falls due to a hold breaking. The falling fellow asks,"Why do you suppose that happened?" The hold could not hold body weight any longer and before this event a hidden process was going on geologically that may have been expedited through over stress.
The FA event is gone and always unrepeatable.
You cannot cross the same river.
The same river does not exist.
You cannot cross the same river once.
FA's are a figment of our imagination and we are better off when they are not taken too seriously.
Everybody that does a climb gets a first ascent of "route" that no longer exists.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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This one's been mulled over on many different posts and most end with the general consensus that the FA doesn't own the rock but owns the right to his or her vision/creation whether it be sport, trad, chinese checkers......
And this seems to be the only "rule" to have lasted through the style and ethics changes which always muddy the discussion.
I climb in TM a lot. I've replaced bolts on run horror shows as well as grid bolted safe routes and have put up FA's. And although I do have my own code I respect others contributions and defend their creations no matter how it was installed. From Higgins (I've helped rebolt his creations) to the new TM grid bolted routes, I will defend them against unsolicited alteration.
Styles and ethics will be endlessly debated (in my mind an incredible waste of time). All should have their place and be respected.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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chim
This isn't philosophy, it's rock climbing. DanK
This[what is going on here] isn't rock climbing. rock climbing is on rock.
I give the 1st acentionist his due. Words.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Actually, Chim, it makes Perfect sense. I've been waiting for Dingus to point out the 'Heraclitus principle, for some time now. I remember hearing it from a somewhat different Dingus/as now decades ago, having read an earlier iteration at least a decade before that.
What is the sound of one truth remaining largely the same through time?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Do subsequent ascentionists have any rights? A scenario that has happened fairly often....a 5.12/5.13 rock climber puts up a sparcely protected but good 5.9. No problem for the good climber but a real hurdle for the 5.9 climber. Do we leave it that way or open it up for climbers who can climb the grade but need a little more protection? It's only rock climbing folks.
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kennyt
Trad climber
Oregon
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A speedy trial
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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how nice to reduce climbing to the considerations of the style-du-jour constructing routes like so many plastic contrivances in a gym so that you're fawning public begs for more!
nothing hard or challenging, just good old pumpy pulling, heel hooking wholesome fun for the family!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
eat the steak with gusto!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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boys just wanna have fa-un...
it's all good, of course
but Donini and McGee have rightly pointed out that the FA is a one and only event, and of course the subsequent ascents are different, unless the FA was never known, then multiple FAs are possible,
but what a mess that would be!
once the FA is done, everyone else can weigh in and negotiate, with the FA team a party in that negotiation...
our tribalism comes out along with our spears and we thump our chests and make our splendid displays
land managers have an advantage here, and can make our measly sniveling irrelevant ...
when bolting in the wilderness is banned, we either become outlaws or we revert back to "best style" and become, once again, an bunch of enthusiasts who are willing to sacrifice life and limb for some reward that totally escapes the rest of humanity.
just like the good old days... and we are revealed for what we truly are... as is iconically displayed in that wonderful photograph posted in the blog linked in the OP, the intention of which was to demonstrate how wild and crazy and out of touch with the rest of society those wayward youths were... we should aspire to be like that?
...ya baby, I want some more of that.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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bullshit Ron!
the bolt spacing should be in international standard units! 6.56168 foot spacing (which is 2 metres)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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donni,
good point,
in the Black Hills Needles 5.11 climbers have put up runout 5.8 routes with few bolts that never get repeated. Particularly these have been more at near roadside areas. I certainly wouldn't chastise some 5.8 climber for making the course safer. Why should he have to repeat someone's else's Dumb Ass Historical Way while he would not have eligible safely features but merely the convenience of a near roadside climb? We are talking bolted face climbs here and not those continuous cracks where the gear placement is dense. i.e. between any two pieces you can place another. Climbing on rock causes a lot of face holds to break off.
Todd Skinner regularly said, "If you're not falling you are not climbing hard enough."
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Ed,
do you live a cloistered life? there are still is plenty of wild and crazy things going on.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Golf has no testpieces? Bite thy tongue! I was fortunate enough to play Cypress Point twice, and No. 16 most certainly remains a testpiece.
John
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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chim,
note: Locker said,
I personally believe that ......
If you can say, "I personally believe...", I question how much concern one has for what others have modified?
Sir Thomas Moore was beheaded for his personal views. He did not want to state his personal view as to what he thought of the royal order, but he was threatened in some way for refusing to tell those views and so then he told his personal views.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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You could die in some of those sand traps....
You speak more truth than you realize, DMT. My father-in-law earned a trip to the ER blasting out of a bunker at Singing Hills in San Diego, when his ball hit a rock at the top and shot back at his head. He ended up with just a split lip, but a few inches different could ahve been fatal.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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You golfers need to employ modern rock climbing techniques- bring post hole diggers and locate the holes where they best suit you, thus avoiding any such sand trap hazards.
Golf is even more hidebound than old-fashioned climbing. If a meteorite landed in front of my ball, I probably wouldn't be able to play it until the Committee determined whether it was a "temporary obstruction" or a "loose impediment."
Edit: Maybe we could learn something from the golfers. What if we had blue bolts, black bolts, gold bolts and red bolts, in increasing order of security. That way, people could differentiate between doing the climb with the blue bolts (like playing from the blue tees) vs. the red bolts, say.
John
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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So Dingus McGee,
It is OK to change others vision? Add the bolts to the BY? Paint the stash on the Mona Lisa? Ofcourse Heraclitus is right about ever changing.....and the Buddhist sand Mandala's give an accurate representation of impermanence but few on here buy into it or there would be no posters.
I prefer Ayn Rand's idea of Objectivism and how it pertains to individual rights and the protection of the individuals rights. I would never alter your vision or art anymore then I would let you alter mine. I doubt serioulsly that you'd allow me to remove a bolt from one of your routes without your consent anymore then I'd allow you to add one on mine. I support your right to defend your vision and would fight all for that.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Your right DMT.... nobody owns the rock....just that your vision is respected.
Edit: Much like the public museum owns a Rembrandt or a Monet but we respect them and leave them as they are.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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wstmrnclmr
you fail miserably in predicting my behavior and attitude towards retrobolting:
FYI: this quote of mine can be found elsewhere.
But I here make the declaration that if a climb of mine needs more protection than what clean climbing affords, then, a well placed bolt may appear and not rumble my tombstone or hurt my feelings.
In other words I do not want any historical possession of manner and method. But in the Black Hills I made some marks on the rocks--with top anchors and in line bolts. I will let posterity manage this as they see fit. I said nothing as to how this management happens. These ad hoc managers could be adding or chopping the bolts as we speak.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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"I certainly wouldn't chastise some 5.8 climber for making the course safer". I asked a question. Don't know about elsewhere, just the above. I disagree that you have the right to alter or give permission to others to alter an individuals idea/belief etc.You are giving your permission to alter your routes, not mine and, as DMT says, I respect that and expext your " mutual" respect. You have consented to allow others to do what they will with your idea, not mine. Funny thing is, I agree with you in that you can do anything you want and I support that. But I don't support your/ or anyone else altering my ideas, routes etc. without my consent.
If I fail miserably to understand you, I apologise.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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The blog is so bad. It is so bad that I wish the OP wouldn't even post about it, trolling for whatever it is that he needs.
Dude. How long have you been climbing?
On the topic of FA's, Jeff Jackson just wrote a hilarious whopper about what it is like putting up new routes these days. Jeff goes way back and still climbs 5.13. He's also about the kindest person that I've ever met:
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/tnb-5-ways-to-make-people-love-your-routes
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Ed, do you live a cloistered life? there are still is plenty of wild and crazy things going on.
absolutely Dingus! I haven't been out of Cali since 1970, dude, it's a happening place!! why go anywhere else?
Man, your really got my ticket!
I've been busted, cloistered Cali climber... that's fits my description to a tee...
I didn't even know there was climbing going on anywhere else in the world... this has really been a mind bender.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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wstmrnclmr,
please read my statement that you quoted again to the point of understanding the timing in it about the retrobolter's action. I said I would not chastise one for retrobolting and this would be after the fact. You accuse me of giving permission which is something different than not chastising after the fact. all is good and I'm heading out for the weekend.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dingus McGee...... Semantics. Have a great weekend and hope you are climbing.
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Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Do first ascentionists have any rights?
Depends on their property rights to the lands.
Do subsequent ascentionists have any rights?
Same answer as to the first question. Property rights are a bundle of rights such as the right to access, the right to manage, the right to sell, etc. The issue about a route staying "as is" is moot and has been rehashed to death. Some routes stay they way they were originally put up, others get altered over time. Some FAist get pissed and try to restore altered routes, sometimes not. Just pick your battles and move on.
I feel the bigger "rights" issue is the 'right to access'. Given the gov't has the right to manage public lands, treading lightly should be encourage in many, if not all, areas and working with agencies is important for continued future use. In the age of increasing human encroachment and need for energy, open space is becoming more of a luxury and less of a right (sad to say). We should devote less time using social forums to arguing between ourselves and devote more time to bringing to light access issues and coming up with solutions to management problems or all these pissing matches will be for nothing. [end soap box rant]
#accessfund
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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you missed my point JL. nature created boot flake, climbers climbed it. nature such as geologic forces and erosion creates the finest lines in climbing, climbers dont create those lines, they climb them. in other words i am always more awed by what nature has provided us than what humans do to it.
these thoughts are not opposing to respecting the style of a FA. just merely a clarification of what is creation.
This is a kind of materialists take on a rock climb, where only the geological factors are considered real and worth mentioning. The "route" I mentioned that the FA created is of course not the selfsame thing as the geological features of the climb. The route is the experiential factor one encounters on a climb, especially the risk factor. On bolt protected face climbs the FA legislates or creates the degree of risk relative to how many of how few bolts they install.
For decades, this creation, the experiential factor injvolved in climbing a given stretch of geology (ie - the "route") was normally honored per what the FA first did. As sport climbing slowly took over as the prevailing mode, only the geology came to matter to most climbers, and the route, especially if risk was reguired, was often deemed unsavory or a bunch of other names and assignations as a result of people not being up to trying the climb as is, as the FA created it. Granted there are many arguments about the responsibilities an FA team have. For example, I usually felt that simply running out a 5.9 route was of little value since few would try and climb it with no pro, so I'd be putting up a kind of one-off so why bother. But once the rating reached double digits we were on experts terrain so a leader was expected to sack it up - or not do the line.
My only point here is not to assert that the FA has sacred rite to dictate to others what degree of risk they must take. Few modern climbers would accept that as valid in these days of grid-bolted sport climbs which us old farts have come to value so hightly. My only point is that when I or anyone else decide to change an existing route for whatever reason, it is only honest to first address the objective fact that I am not up to leading the route as is. THEN we can hear all the subjective REASONAS WHY we won't tackle the challenge but instead mean to dial it down because (fill in the blank).
Of course we can never accpet ANY climber saying he or she would or could do the route - "if I felt like it," but will not owing to a salvo of excuses and justifications, at least several of which I agree with. Nevertheless, "could" never counts in climbing. You either get out there and do it, or make no claims. And if you change routes, for whatever reasons, it is only fair and honest and gracious to state for the record that, "I am not up to doing this route the way it stands - or else I would." Anything else is forked-tongue jive.
JL
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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In the spirit of Largo's last post -
Mr. Long, I am not up to climbing the Bachar-Yerian. I don't want to die, and I definitely don't want to sprain my ankle, or bruise my shin, or risk not making it to the top before I get hungry for my ham sandwich.
Now that I've made my confession, and admitted that you're a much more awesomer climber than I will ever be, can I grid-bolt it?
Edit: I'm sorry for baiting you like this, John Long. I don't even know you. But sometimes you just make it so easy; it's really hard to resist. I mean this all in kindness. Your books are awesome, and I probably wouldn't be climbing without them.
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WBraun
climber
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The first ascentionist also has the right to do wrong .......
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Some really fine posts surrounding a troll with an army of fake usernames.
So who then gets to decide these things if not the FA. An anonymous troll who cannot come out of hiding for having such courage of conviction. Kinda funny.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Granite Girl you can certainly grid bolt the route. Who's going to stop you.
But if you asked yourself the question: The B/Y is a bold climb, and because I am not up to doing it as is, I want something for nothing (no risk). What will I lose in the process of grid bloting the route to make it "safer." If for instance I systamatically went on a mission to get better at face climbing and slowly worked my way up the ladder of risk till perhaps someday I could lead the B/Y fair and square, would this exercise bear any fruit? Or is it more better to feed my mania to immediately gratify my desire to climb the route and never mind the effort to acquire the skill. I'll grid bolt that bad boy and - and what?
What will you do then? Who will you look at in the mirror? If you only want to climb hard rock with no risk, why not stack up the pads and get your bouldering on?
You can't goad me here because I'm not defending the right of any FA team to tell the future how to climb. No one would listen anyhow. And there is no intention to say that those running the rope are the superior folk all around. Who cares? You'd just trigger the faux enlightend, mock humble chin music of the peanut gallery giving lip service to an antiquated mode of ascent that they neither understand or value. No point in that. Such people could scarcely grasp the value of being totally humbled by a route that is miles over their head - whick happend to ALL of us growing up - when the metro cool impulse is to yank it down and giggle at anyone thinking this is sissy's work.
But I think there is some value in leaving a few of the old museum routes as is. There are so few left that grid bolting them seems to serve no purpose.
JL
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thewesleysummers
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
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Largo, errr.... JL.. I don't know who you are, or if I agree with anything you're saying... but your writing makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Bullsh#t.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Asswipe.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I think people in their 20s today are just as brave and knowledgable as any generation. Maybe moreso with all the highballing going on. I just think there is a vocal minority who don't grasp or reject the idea of having to earn anything, and instead want everything right now and just as they like it - and xonsider it their divine right for curious reasons. Some sort of metro-me daddio delusion. My sense of it is that people wanting to swindle and thieve their way past the jeopardy on a given climb are quite naturally swindling life in other ways as well, wanting it all for nothing, and giggling at those who suggest another path might be more better for their charicters.
I dod wonder what woould happen if someone actually did grid bolt the Bachar - Yearian and busted out the pitiful argument that people wanting the original experience can simply skip the bolts.
JL
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Speaking of iPhones, does anyone know when the next model is coming out? I accidentally dropped mine while Instagramming the crux on that sweet 5.6XXX I climbed last weekend.
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Large Sack, if this ancient-technology internet forum allowed +1'ing posts, I'd be all over yours. And by the way, you misspelled iPhone. Don't make Steve Jobs roll over in his grave.
As for feeding my mania for climbing, I'd rather feed my belly. So that means not dropping out of life for several years to get better at pulling on sketchy knobs. As Donini once said, all it takes to be a professional climber "is the personal decision to enter old age without a pot to piss in."
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jul 10, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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Wes, you speak from the heart of a true climber!
Keep on brother!
You just put a smile on my face!
-Q-ball
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 10, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
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Granie Girl, I misspell everything on this thread because I have fat fingers and am typing on an Android, NOT an iPhone. Steve J? Who dat, sweetness?
Now the fun thing with snide fem digs like yours is to try and imagine what experiences you must have had in life to project that coffee house shizzle (decaf for you I'd wager) and the faux flip too-cool-for-school 'tude where "I don't care" is a curious badge of honor and acting dumb and all thumbs and ravenously hungry and ass backwards is - what?
What might happen if Dingus took you on a big wall and lashed you to a ledge? Not a macho wall but something tame. And it was just you and that endless horizon stretching to the palm at the end of your mind, beyond the last thought . . . rising in the - what? You're smart. What's the answer.
What might happen to those smarty pants? Cause right now I'm thinking they're on fire . . .
JL
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Jul 11, 2014 - 02:43am PT
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yah you have the right to brag about it, but doesnt mean anybody is gonna listen
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Jul 11, 2014 - 02:55am PT
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GG ya gotta have at least a little of whatever the climbing equivalent of street cred is before you can start lobbing dis-bombs in all directions, at least if you want them to have any impact.
I agree John-O, the "too cool to be cool" thing doesnt work unless theres a little substance behind it.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Jul 11, 2014 - 06:03am PT
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OP asks a dumb question.
FA owners don't have "rights". They have "responsibilities". Those are better than "rights".
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 11, 2014 - 06:12am PT
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They have the intellectual grasp of a four fingered ape scratching it's ass.
Large sack is growing on me.
First Ascensionist is a condition, left untreated it will result in heavy guidebooks.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 11, 2014 - 06:44am PT
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Lash granite girl to a ledge? .....
DMT
6 bolts?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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teach your children well...
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Jul 11, 2014 - 09:18am PT
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All I can say is, I think Largo might have me confused with Rapunzel.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 11, 2014 - 09:56am PT
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Rapuz - who? Are you all smart and sh#t Granite Girl? The point of lashing you to that ledge is that eventually the thespian will tire, the drift will divest all cryptonics and coyness and as the sun sets you might just say what you mean. Or we can keep dog paddling in the shallow end. Where's dingus when you need him?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 11, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Fiddle? Saw awsy sweet pea lol
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Jul 11, 2014 - 10:33am PT
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Yeah, Large Sack, I know. I just meant to give a little dig at what I see as the absurdity of bringing along a big ego to what is essentially supposed to be a fun recreational activity, but I seem to have opened a can of worms bigger than I expected. I feel a little bit bad about that, so I think I'll back off now.
I can only imagine what this discussion would be like if Mark Twight were here.
Edit: Sure, DMT. I've always wanted to climb a bigwall.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 11, 2014 - 10:41am PT
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I just meant to give a little dig at what I see as the absurdity of bringing along a big ego to what is essentially supposed to be a fun recreational activity, but I seem to have opened a can of worms bigger than I expected.
thats the ego escaping....
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jul 11, 2014 - 11:07am PT
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I bet mark twight would not have enough nerve to post on this forum. Kiss or kill was essentially him bitching about other people downgrading the FAs that he has done. Imagine if he posted a TR here and found oout his routes weren't even FAs...guy would have a heart attack. And all the over dramatic stories...that book was something. Have to give it up to him, many people read it and consider him one of the most bad as climbers ever.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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many people read it and consider him one of the most bad as climbers ever.
I think that was supposed to be "bad ass"
but, maybe I'm being too old school here, and cloistered and all that, but BITD we considered someone "bad ass" by attempting to repeat their routes.
perhaps it explains a lot that in these modern times, one just has to read about it...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jul 11, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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but, maybe I'm being too old school here, and cloistered and all that, but BITD we considered someone "bad ass" by attempting to repeat their routes.
perhaps it explains a lot that in these modern times, one just has to read about it...
Ed, when you read about Messner's oxygen-less blitz ascents of 8000M peaks or about the same ol Bachar Yerian, did you have to repeat those climbs to consider those climbers bad ass? Or did you simply consider it mind-blowing, like the other 99.99% of average climbers out there?
Like defining a “good” climber, the term bad-ass is very relative, and could mean different things to different climbers. It could mean different things to same climber in different stage too. But experienced and relatively green climbers, could all agree that doing something like Slovak Direct on Mt. Denali, in a push, is bad ass. No matter if the source of the opinion will ever have the skills, needed fitness or mental strength to attempt such a climb.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jul 11, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
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The FA event is gone and always unrepeatable (Dingus)
It's only rock climbing folks (Donini)
I agree. Words of wisdom.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 11, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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It seems Largo left out a critical word when he said those that add bolts to trad face climbs do a lesser feat when they climb them.
John, please? add the the word "stupid" so those that fail to see this subtly will be able to read the text as, " those that add bolts to trad face climbs do a [lesser] stupid feat when they climb them than did the FAist. I suspect this single word will clear most of the confusion here on ST.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jul 11, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
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Well this settles it. I'm heading up to the Valley this winter and bolt up The Nutcracker every 6-8 feet. I get tired of waiting in line when I want to climb that thing.
If it were bolted all the way, people would climb it faster and I could climb it faster too.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 11, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
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The question of the original post has been argued to DEATH on this forum and every other forum.
And Large Sack. JGill is John Gill. He soloed the Thimble (as a super highball boulder problem) in 1961. 5.12+ when your hero Largo was probably in grade school.
Not to knock Largo....I'm just letting you know that everyone here is trolling you. I'm speaking up because we are all watching you step in your own doo doo, and it isn't polite of us.
We are lucky to be able to argue with Gill to this day.
He is one of the most famous American climbers. Google him up. Or ask him a question. He is posting on this thread, which makes this place amazing sometimes.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Jul 11, 2014 - 10:30pm PT
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If that aint a troll then im a monkeys uncle
So say for sport climbing. if the bolter doesn't get the FA does the FA get to name it?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 12, 2014 - 05:59am PT
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Why is a guy who,only bouldered so respected? I googled him and he has done nothing but circus tricks and climbing little rocks.
The guy seems kinda full of himself...
Since you don't use your name to post, I read your posts on the "...first 5.12" thread. John probably doesn't care if you jerk his chain, but your perspective is a little strange: you give Largo his due--because of his books, instead of his stellar climbing accomplishments--but get your panties twisted because Gill corrected your spelling and urged you to climb outside. I am pretty sure that you are trolling--there are not many climbers with their own page on Wikipedia--but your post is a bit of a head-scratcher?
I assume that you are happy to throw firecrackers into the camp fire with the intent to be funny, or maybe it is because you are from Jersey (since changed to New Delhi), or maybe you are good friends with John and this is an inside joke (are you posting Fitschen or Wunsch?). Nevertheless, I'll answer your post straight.
John is so well respected because none of us could come close to the difficulty of the routes he put up. it took at least 10 years for anyone to catch up--I am thinking John Stannard's (jstan) "Foops". But Donini has already told you this in your 5.12 thread. I can attest to Royal and Pratt and Bridwell knowing that Gill could do things they couldn't do. John's climbs were also not one-move-wonders--some were high off the ground. Besides the difficulty of the routes and John's strength, shown off by the famous picture of him doing a one arms lever, he set a standard of what was possible that 70s climbers worked to match, but only 10 years later. Bachar and Kauk probably came close.
John was also doing his climbing at a time when most of the focus was on big wall aid. While John climbed unroped, when the US climbing community started focusing on all free ascents and pushing the limits, everyone knew that John had surpassed us, 10-15 years earlier.
In any case, John is a cool guy with a wry sense of humor. One of his best gibs: "Those guys on SuperTopo.com talk about being old climbers. They aren't old. They are just veterans."
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 12, 2014 - 06:00am PT
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Large Sack, Slamming Gill for one of your first posts, classy.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jul 12, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
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Sacs a good troll. Got me to take it seriously and I bit before I reminded myself just how small and self centered climbing really is in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure JGill agrees. And I like Granite-Girl's razzing as well. Both getting the "heavies" to bite. Putting a laugh on all of us trying to find relevance and our "legacy".
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jstan
climber
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Jul 12, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
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I'm no body, except a working class blue collar man who just got into climbing. LS
If I might ask. What was it that brought climbing to your attention?
A gym climber from San Francisco once asked for help in learning to climb outdoors. Since he was civil and straightforward I spent three days teaching him how to lead. He was leading 5.8 very competently when we finished. I was most impressed. A little more experience and he was clearly going to be able to climb whatever he wanted.
I went overboard impressing him on the fact a mistake could get him killed. You do realize climbing outdoors can get you killed?
Oh on a side note. The day he flew into Palm Springs it was 117F. The next three days were no cooler.
And it needs to be said. For the last fifty years no climber has walked past John Gill without tipping their hat. Why? Besides his outrageous accomplishments, he is a really good sort.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Jul 12, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
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troll or no troll, whatever happened to respect?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 13, 2014 - 11:52am PT
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You got off on the wrong foot, dude.
1) You picked the name "Large Sack."
There are some of the biggest sacks in the history of climbing who hang out here. I dunno why, but Supertopo is filled with old climbers.
2) Your post about sending 5.12 sounded like spray. On the web, things can come across differently from your intent.
If you have ANY questions about the history of climbing, ask it here. This is where all of the old farts hang out.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 13, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
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Climbing rocks don't make you a freaking God.
You are wrong, buddy boy.
...and have some fun doing it.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 13, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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Well, Large Sack,
You are pretty free with your insults as well.
Why don't you start a thread with a question?
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| Messages 1 - 146 of total 146 in this topic |
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