Discussion Topic |
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Chippychopperone
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 6, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
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Check out the routes and the dates this guy has been completing. Very busy!
click on his routes section and look at the topos.
Anybody know what Jim does for a job? I would like to have that schedule. Perhaps he is old enough to be "retired?"
http://mountainproject.com/u/jim-beyer//108688803
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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I would like to have that schedule.
November to March off? It's called "move to Moab and work in the service industry". Your wife and children probably won't dig the scant resources during the winter months but you'll be soloing A4+ first ascents in the Fisher Towers and blowing off all that domestically-acquired angst.
Win/win?
edit: They should make a sitcom about Jim Beyer having to enter the service industry after some unfortunate financial choices. Lots of comedic opportunities with Jim unable adapt to the nuances of serfdom. Every episode ends with Jim learning a valuable life lesson. Sitcom is entitled Jim Beyer Will Take Your Order Now.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Free Gaza looks dope
wuhtz a "coassck whip"?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Let's see how many time takes Jensen to give his "opinion"...
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Jim lives in his own world and does his own thing--unlike the rest of us lemmings.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I try to craft sandstone routes for many people to enjoy for a long time.
Then there is Beyer,..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Wait, is he like Pelut's belay slave?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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More like Pelut's dark force mentor.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Hey before this becomes a slagfest on a guy that is probably not going to defend himself on ST, those that actually repeat Beyer's routes often report high-quality and difficult climbing. Yeah, he marches to the beat of his own drum, but don't we still admire that quality in the climbing community?
Piton Ron, comparing your obvious, often easy trade routes to Beyer's abstract, generally difficult routes is kinda an apple to oranges thing; don't you think. I've done some of yours, and enjoyed them, and have done a Beyer route or two and enjoyed those also. I was one of the many you refer to, but I've heard some comment that your routes are pretty pedestrian (relatively speaking). Seems like you should embrace other attitudes about putting up routes other than your own.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jim is a Baddass and a Madman, the stuff of Legends. . .df
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Chippychopperone
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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I remember trying the start to Savage master and being blown away by the difficulty. Since this day, I have made it a habit to eyeball Beyer routes while in the desert en route to easier and safer climbs. His route on Independence Monument looks really hard. The wankers away route in Arches looked horrific after climbing the easier route to the left. Whether one likes his style or personality, you gotta tip your hat off to the guy for going up scary faces where it is hard to imaging passage.
I am surprised to see he is this active at his age. I'm not sure how old the dude is, but I've climbed routes in Zion that he climbed in the 70's.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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wbw,
apples and oranges is too similar to apply.
More like apples and anti-apples.
Beyer crafts routes intended to be harder (to impossible) to repeat with temporary quarter inch drilled holes which are then blown out or filled with mud or, worse, both.
While his routes are difficult that matters little to me. What does matter is the lack of conservation ethic. It is wholly unjustified by "difficulty".
And before you remind me of my so regrettably pedestrian routes, you should bear in mind that I've put in time on the sharp end of serious aid climbs BITD, so I have walked the talk my friend.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I am very disturbed that Jim chopped and destroyed rivets and bolts on Warren Harding's Wall of Early Morning Light. The route is now unrepeatable, and I would have loved to have climbed it.
Jim - why did you do this?
Thanks,
Pete
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WBraun
climber
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Jim - why did you do this?
He didn't want you to do the climb?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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What if I try the climb, and fall because the bolts are broken, and you have to rescue me, Werner?
And why are you a duck?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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a SMOKING duck.
a very different beast indeed.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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beyer don't care if he lives or dies
certainly don't care what you think of his route -- whether its "ghey" or "hardcore" or "hella dope" or "prancer freeway"
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WBraun
climber
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What if I try the climb, and fall because the bolts are broken, and you have to rescue me, Werner?
You won't fall, you're bad ass.
QUACK!!! ......
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gumbyclimber
climber
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I believe Jim most certainly does care what people think because he told me, at least a dozen times, that he climbs to compete and to be considered the best. He also told me that he places booby trap gear on/near his routes because somebody dying on one of them is his "number one goal".
This isn't slander, this is what he was telling everybody who would listen whether they were a climber or not. Sorry if it sounds like slander but I feel like it's my unfortunate responsibility to report that detail to anyone planning on going near his routes. If somebody was bragging about leaving nails on the freeway to cause crashes or something like that I would want to know.
Personal opinion: He is clearly highly motivated and knows how to pull off large, crazy, and complex dreams alone; that talent is worth some envy. I wasn't left with the impression, however, that either of us is missing out in not being friends.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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^^^ Yup.
Gotta admire his skills, motivation, and dedication, but sadly the ego and non conventional and sneaky tactics keep most of us away from his routes.
It's a pity because he's climbed some beautiful lines.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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He also told me that he places booby trap gear on/near his routes because somebody dying on one of them is his "number one goal".
liability is a harsh mistress. Jimbo might want to rephrase.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Heh a climber with an ego
What a novelty
Some pretty serious (unsolicited, unproven) allegations and slander being levelled here against a man who is not here to defend himself...classic supertopo!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Best f*#king thread of the year, so far. Full of the real deal, all personal and sh#t. What WBW said. And Piton Ron too. And Werner and Pete. And don't forget Rivet. Jensen, stay out of it or else it becomes a whiner's fest.
I got front row seats on this!
Arne
And Gumby too; nice story. Death routes in the literal sense. Seriously, fun thread.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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I've enjoyed drinking a few beers with the man:
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Wow, and Aslaksen too! Nice!
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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I think some of you are forgetting that Beyer's techniques have likely evolved over the many years he has been at this game. To assume he is still doing the same thing as 30 years ago is pretty ignorant. He used to have rurps, now he probably has a full rack of beaks. He likely modifies his gear and has a whole new bag of tricks. Jim is obviously doing what he loves and has devoted himself to.
Do any of his modern Fisher routes call for lots of fat heads? I doubt it, I bet he is using beaks now.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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You're telling me these are hard men and I see a case of Bud Light?
OK, maybe it's breakfast.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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PBR
What gumbyclimber said has the ring of truth.
It also makes me sick!
Having had numerous people die repeating routes I put up has greatly troubled me, even though I tried to make all but a few reasonably safe, and have labelled those few as dangerous.
The thought of reveling in actually precipitating a tragedy by booby trapping a route is sociopathic.
I know that in climbing it is caveat emptor , but such behavior is criminal!
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Best f*#king thread of the year
I agree! I love the aid climber spray/slag/rant threads. Not sure why. Maybe because I don't have a dog in this fight.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Toker, you color blind? (look to the right of the PBR)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Randisi, not jealous in the least.
I am, however, curious as to how many injured or dead you have had the opportunity to recover or transport.
Hoping to create more is sick!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Ron, the legacy of preservation and your trail of great crafted routes will remain a long time after Jim, his attitudes and his memory is dust. That may neither be here nor there, I have nothing to say about Beyer.
Thanks man.
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Joshua Johnson
Boulder climber
Boulder
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Ron, the legacy of preservation and your trail of great crafted routes will remain a long time after Jim, his attitudes and his memory is dust.
Not.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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JJ you must be the most negative persons to show on ST in the past year.
Why don't you post a TR, or start an interesting thread?
I've known Jim Beyer for 39 years,... sort of.
In 1975 when he put up Sunshine (not '74 as I have seen reported) I spent a few hours at Chasm View telling him how far the top was. We didn't actually meet until the following year. I spent some time explaining my counter-weight solo haul system to him and he then used it on his Dihedral Wall solo.
We crossed paths again and again. There is no jealousy there since our philosophies are fundamentally divergent.
But,.. booby trapping a route so that somebody dies in order to feed your ego?
That is criminal!
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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So Ron, are you trying to save humanity from the dangers of aid climbing by making them "reasonably safe", or are you trying to impose a conservationist ethic. The one time I met you was at the base of Touchstone, and you all but threatened me if I dared to take a hammer on the route that you hammered on the first ascent. There are pin scars on Touchstone on sections that go free at 5.10.(I have never hammered on a clean route, and didn't need you acting all tough-guy and hypocritical on me.)
I don't doubt that you've spent some time on the sharp end on serious climbs. Putting up a new aid route in Zion, especially solo is serious business. Hell, I haven't done an aid route in several years, and generally have never cared for it (for its own sake) all that much.
You've got your style, and you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about Beyer's motivations in his style. If you care so much, maybe you should just ask him. It would be easy enough to send an email through Mountain Project.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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It seems more like Ron is arguing based upon tangible details presented in this thread by himself and others. Everyone defending Beyer seems to fall into the camp of arguing from emotion, assumption, and (anti)hero worship.
At least that's how it looks to me (as a member of "the rest of us")
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Whoever brought the bud lite lime should be slandered.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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At least BLL controls the Scurvy in the desert.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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wbw,
emotionally vested in a route that was pivotal both in my life and in desert wall climbing?
Guilty as charged. Nor am I proud of every interaction I've had at that location.
But I haven't glued any fake bolt hangers to the wall (as it were).
This is not a question of style, and I have no wish to be known as a person that puts up hard routes, so there is no envy.
I am actually amazed at how far I've gotten in climbing as my initial efforts were so dismal.
But when one's actions affect others it becomes a question of ethics.
Trying to cause a stranger's death just to feed one's ego is about as wrong as it gets.
edit
Too nice a day to be sitting here. Ammon, shouldn't you be plummeting off something?
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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You're telling me these are hard men and I see a case of Bud Light?
OK, maybe it's breakfast.
Whoever brought the bud lite lime should be slandered.
don't be so judgemental.....it might have been on sale.
At least it wasn't Clamato-Bud
Don't look at me... I brought the Hop Rising and Jaminson, haha
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Trying to cause a stranger's death just to feed one's ego is about as wrong as it gets.
Where is the proof? I'm not taking your word for it.
You like it if people claimed extremely slanderous and unsubstantiated shat about you here? About you trying to KILL other climbers?
JFC so sanctimonious and self-righteous yet so immature and irresponsible.
Get a grip you're just looking worse and worse with each post.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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don't be so judgemental.....it might have been on sale.
At least it wasn't Clamato-Bud
Bud Chelada is good stuff, especially picante.
I prefer my home made mix (beer, tomato juice, and basically spicy bloody mary additives), but the premade stuff is an acceptable substitute.
As for Beyer, as an "armchair" desert aid climber (I don't do it), doesn't seem like we have enough info to draw a meaningful conclusion, but we can make some reasonable inferences.
For instance, the guy who said that Beyer doesn't care what other people do or think of him is almost certainly wrong.
Always seemed to me that climbing on decomposing towers of mud is probably not a good long term activity for those towers and for climbers generally in a world that seems to intensively scrutinize climbers' environmental impact (as minimal as that may be in the grand scheme), but what do I know.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Just back from a fun scramble, perfect weather.
Fluffy,
no I don't have proof. Ask gumbyclimber if he recorded it. But to me it doesn't sound made up. It dovetails right into the rest of the evidence; blown out quarter inch holes with mud stuffed in them, blasted out seams, etc.
But the funny thing about the Fishers is that underneath the mud the core rock is quite hard.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Jim told me. Period. Take it to court. It's not what somebody else told me Jim said. Jim said it to me.
Jealous and vindictive? No, sorry. Your time in Asia is going well but you haven't stayed too long yet. Jim is 1000 times the big wall climber I could have ever have prayed to be and it never crosses my mind, ever, because we aren't playing the same game.
Jim deserves to be called out for saying this kind of reprehensible garbage and I'm willing to stand up and do it. It's a community issue, not a me vs Jim issue. Jim's a big boy who should have to answer for his words and he's spread plenty of rubbish around. I think he's unfriendly, uncool, and worth calling the county sheriff about.
Sure there's a me vs Jim issue; I'm honest about that and would say it to his face. Here it is: "Hey Jim, nice to see you again. Now why don't you go sit back down there in the back of the bus, where second place is forever, and spend some time absorbing that feeling because it's not going to change. Although flattering, I was left unimpressed by your creepshow stalking act and I'm sick of you and your bully crap. I hope you've learned to be more careful before you start windmilling those haymakers because you caught me at the weakest moment in my life and I took it personally."
I know more than anyone I can think of about being blamed for people's deaths, faceless internet slander, vicious rumours etc. Hell, Cedar and I spent years playing on the fact that our names sounded the same and nobody knew who he was; Ben was actively impersonating me in Thailand while I was either reading books in the jungle or even off in Cambodia somewhere. Now there's all kinds of incredible stories about me out there that really seem to disappoint strangers. Ha!
Finally, when you filter the internet speculation and boil it down to facts there are two which were already staring us in the face and didn't need my input:
One, if Jim Beyer's words are worth anything then be careful around him and his routes. This is the only point I care too impress on the public and why I raised my voice.
Two, the three people who have anything to say about soloing Mt. Thor are allKOO KOO FOR F'N' COCOA PUFFS BOOGEDY BOOGEDTY BLAHALDKNDSNVSWTTTttt!!!. Anyway, one of them is dead and isn't known to have spoken English (which sure makes for interesting conversation); the other two will work it out like gentlemen or hyenas.
We all bow before Eric Kohl.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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It was Jeremy for sure.
That dude'll drink anything.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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gumbyclimber
I believe Jim most certainly does care what people think because he told me, at least a dozen times, that he climbs to compete and to be considered the best. He also told me that he places booby trap gear on/near his routes because somebody dying on one of them is his "number one goal".
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Good point drljefe.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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At least BLL controls the Scurvy in the desert.
not judging by this thread
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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not to detract from the, uh, dialogue, but has anyone done a Beyer route in the Teton Range?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Yo Ron, for the record, your efforts in Zion have always been inspiring to me. My first experience in Zion was nearly 30 years ago. We had driven into the park during darkness, crashed on the ground and when I woke up the next morning I thought I had found the most intensely beautiful place I could imagine. Actually, I'm not sure I could have ever imagined a place like Zion without actually being there. Once I got tuned into the climbing history there, and heard about this guy exploring those huge walls solo, that was another level of having my mind blown.
Touchstone is a beautiful route, and my experience on it 20 years ago is unforgettable. Hats off to you for the quality of routes you have chosen over the years, including Pervertical on the Diamond, and your voice in keeping the routes in Zion from becoming beat out pieces of crap.
MS: if I'm not mistaken, Caveat Emptor (or a least part of it) is a Beyer route in the Tetons, and I bet many people who participate in this forum have done it. I've alway considered it to be my favorite rock route in the range. I've heard (but haven't personally experienced) that the Beyer E. Face route on the Grand is very good.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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I've done several new routes with Beyer in Durango, the Tetons, and in the Saint Elias Range. I haven't seen any questionable ethics.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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"Gumbyclimber"! So good to see you. When are you coming back to LA? How's the wife?
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OR
Trad climber
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So this thread took the turn to fugly. Not that I did not expect it. Not that its deserved but I remember controversy over JB as far back as the late 80's . Post on….
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Standard good bad ugly ST fair.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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He chopped at random with abandon from "Martyrs brigade".....Eff that guy.
Maybe a truck will hit him.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Never trust a carpenter or climber that works alone.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Never trust a carpenter or climber that works alone.
Bwaaahahahaah!
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Brosef
Big Wall climber
Fort Collins, CO
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May 12, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
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As the one in the red shirt in the picture, I can say neither Jeremy or I were the purchaser of the Bud light lime....but after running out of beer it sure tasted good....
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 12, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
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Everyone talks trash about the BLL until the temps exceed 70F. Then it's all
"Hey Munge, I really like the BLL. Don't tell anyone."
Bunch of Limeaphobes!
At least BLL controls the Scurvy in the desert.
Exactly.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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May 12, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
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More like Budweiseraphobes. Nuttin wrong with a fresh lime in a Pacifico.
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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May 12, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
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Does Jim Beyer actually exist?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 12, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
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He does but does A6b?
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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May 12, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
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At least he is still climbing unlike most of the folks here that post OT crap everyday.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 21, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
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Been out shooting and even some climbing for the past few weeks. Even crossed paths with another tacoan.
So, if I understand this right, Jim has put up some outstanding routes on harder rock types.
Kudos and congratulations.
But there is copious evidence of, shall we say, non-conservative actions, known to exist on his sandstone routes, and that is at the core of this discussion.
I am glad to see gumbyclimber was coming forth with a very credible post even as I was crafting my last one.
For me it comes down to having experienced the sudden loss of so many friends that climbing seems plenty dangerous without booby traps.
I believe that gumbyclimber has little to no reason to post such a thing if it isn't true.
I wish Jim all the best, but I have no interest in repeating his routes. Saying caveat emptor is one thing but feeding your ego by causing death is ethically atrocious.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 21, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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Well, on his recent Valley FA's on Liberty cap, there are multiple A4-A5 pitches sporting many rivets in each pitch.
He goes on to list the hardware he uses (types of rivets) and makes sure to note that there are no 3/8ths bolts on any pitch.
Now, I use the same hardware he does on my routes(machine rivets, button heads etc) Same size, same shape.
The only way to assume a pitch is A4-A5 with many rivets is that the FA knowingly placed bad rivets.
Plenty of whippers on my rivets, and I trust them to the fullest. NO way would I rate a pitch A4 or even god forbid A5 If I drilled that many rivets as shown in his topos.
Seeing that on a topo eludes to poor craftsmanship in the form of badly placed rivets. A guy of Beyers mileage on FA's knows the difference.
Just an observation and opinion though I will never climb any of his routes. Liberty Cap has some of the most bombproof rock in the valley.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 21, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
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So, time bombs on granite too?
I must admit that at times I use a "quickie" bolting technique that only a few people have seen that permits me to get in a body weight anchor super fast, but subsequently I will descend from the belay to rework the hole so that the route is, at that spot at least, safe to repeat.
That some routes may have conventional bolts (with hangers) that I placed early on, before for the greater part using drilled angles, that now may begin to fail is highly regrettable by me, but they were placed in a good faith effort, and thankfully it is not something I am hearing about yet.
I would not leave a drilled anchor that I deemed likely to fail shortly.
What mucci points out seems to be more evidence. Where is our WOS "inspection team" (Ammon and Kate)?
Duty calls!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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May 21, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
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It seems as though rickd is standing up for a controversial character... ;-)
cheers rickd
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Nov 13, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
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just came across his topo of Hamas Fights For Freedom (VI A5+), which apparently was put up on October 31, 2014.
anyone see him establish this route? looks like it's close to Iron Hawk.
the topo itself is mildly entertaining and could be self-parody for all I know.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 13, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
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Butcher, an autobiography?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 13, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
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anyone see him establish this route? looks like it's close to Iron Hawk. Yeah saw him up there for a couple days when I was there. As I recall he was in that area.
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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Nov 13, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
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What happened on Wall of Early Morning Light? Since it's right there on one of the most prominent parts of the entire Yosemite valley, I would imagine that it gets a decent number of ascents (at least by Yosemite locals). Is there a new bolt chopping controversy on WEML?
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:02am PT
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ms55401 said: "just came across his topo of Hamas Fights For Freedom (VI A5+), which apparently was put up on October 31, 2014. anyone see him establish this route? looks like it's close to Iron Hawk. the topo itself is mildly entertaining and could be self-parody for all I know."
Self-parody? Hmmm. In a world filled with too many of them already it appears that another jackass motherf*#king Jew hating anti-semitic prick is on the loose to me. Normally when one is trying to be ironic, self-parodying or humorous, they put a :-) or a LOL at the end to indicate they are joking. It's distressing to see such bigotry and ignorance outside of backwater banjo pickin' Appalachia or a Muslim country still going on in this day and age. Very Very distressing.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:03am PT
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http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/12200319500/North-America-United-States-California-Yosemite-Valley-Various-Activities
Jim Beyer put up a new aid route that is a candidate for the “hardest route on El Cap.” Dubbed Martyr's Brigade (5.11 a5cR—his own twist on the rating system), the line was put up over 20+ days of stormy weather. The line is located near the North American Wall, between Reticent Wall and Space. One of the radical aid moves involved using an ice axe, taped to a long stick-clip, to blindly hook a block 20 feet away. In Alpinist magazine (Issue 1) Beyer wrote, “I drilled a lot of bolts, but chopped about an equal number on surrounding routes. Creating hard pitches, destroying pathetic bolt ladders (Early Morning Light)—it seemed to balance out in the end.”
Looks like Jim Upgraded Highway to Hell's 1st Pitch.
A5 to A5C, not often that happens!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:12am PT
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Be careful on his routes. I'd say "heads up" , but that's not ways the best policy.....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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5cR.......weird or what. Breaking A5 into letter grades is bad enough but to give it an R rating is beyond the pale. Is there an A5G out there? Wouldn't one assume that A5 (if such a rating exists) is at least R. The definitions i have read would assume an X rating to be appropriate.
Again, i don't believe that A5 (based on it's definition) has been proven to exist....let alone A5c.
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adrian korosec
climber
Tucson
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:22am PT
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Go Jim (Beyer of course)! Still getting it done.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:38am PT
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Jay, care to explain that one?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2014 - 08:46am PT
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Rhodo, last Saturday after climbing "Beyer's crack" on Wall Street, I yanked a stuck rap rope hard enough to dislodge a grapefruit sized rock straight into my face.http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2525617/Three-Cheers-for-the-Ferretlegger
Total coincidence that it's a Beyer rte, but where would the taco be if we didn't do off topic digressions?
The guidebook description starts with "Not recommended"
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 14, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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Don't look at me... I brought the Hop Rising and Jaminson, haha
It was Jeremy for sure!
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 14, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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Another hard-as-shit Jim Beyer creation! It was neat watching the El Cap Report while this was going on.
Gotta say, some of the commentary on the topo is a little unappreciated. I would like to have him tell me why, as a Jew, I am guilty of Zionist war crimes, even if I don't support the actions of Israel.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Nov 14, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
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Beyer is a Douche, RP3. Straight goods. Maybe he'll get hit by a train.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 14, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
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The comments on Beyer's topo make it clear that he's got the political intelligence of a tick, the same sense of fairness as a second-grade playground bully, and the integrity of a cockroach.
His climbing is irrelevant to these "qualities" as a human being.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 14, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
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Yup. It goes without saying that when I digitize that one, I will take some editorial liberties!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 14, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
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Beyer is committing wall crimes. Ship him to the Hague.
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Nov 14, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
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As RP3 and others have mentioned, I too, was put off by Herr Beyer's apparent antisemitism. If you look at his topos posted on MP, linked above, there are a couple of notations on his topos that if made by a politician or a celebrity, that individual would be soon be making a public apology and begging for forgiveness.
Beyer sure needs his head examined.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 15, 2014 - 07:44am PT
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Well, he may be an awesome climber, and prolific and all that, but that doesn't mean he's not a dick of a human being. Lots of climbers are as#@&%es, just look around here. Being good doesn't get you a pass on being a decent human.
Chopping stuff on his own routes to make them unrepeatable, chopping stuff on routes nearby, hoping for the death of someone on one of his routes?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 15, 2014 - 08:54am PT
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PTPP go get the re establish ment started
bi error could never have achieved his outstanding feats of doom with out the early accomplishment (1947?)of the Zionist hoard that allows him his freedom and his
convictions?. Thank you Couchmaster for grabbing that and putting it here
To be fair If. I had a way back machine I would go back to the Ford/Carter era and talk Jim into
the special 'Special' forces that trained the Mu JA Hadim to fight in the then covert war against the USSR in Afganistan.
Hey pirate of course this terrifying thread brings you out of hiding look lest we forget that
Freedom , and adventure go hand in hand but as gumby (not his m.o.) says any one that was in ear shot heard the crazy .... well we all have our dark sides but toker is not far from the mark
Some of us I am sure would be willing to do belay time to re establish what bi error
(he is not a bro or a jimbo) has stripped and even take the sharp end to 'fix' his st00pid
death routes with strings of Modern Phat Bolt ladders that go at A I/2 easy Peasy
then bi error can go chop all our work and we can rinse and repeat.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 15, 2014 - 09:01am PT
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Has anyone done Lost in America since he did it last year? I wonder what shape he left it in.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2014 - 09:51am PT
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Interesting double standard, where was all the taco outrage after a climber's kid put up a disparaging sign with swastikas outside my house?
The dad claims it was his "first constitutional right" and yet some of the BASE heroes on this forum continue to befriend this guy and patronize his shop.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of those expressing outrage on this thread have done the same.
At least a few people got on Batten's case when he called me jewboy.
I have to wonder if some of this anger towards the anti-semitic comments are perhaps displacement behavior having some origin in other unorthodox aspects of the Beyer phenomenon.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 15, 2014 - 10:10am PT
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If you have a copy of Crusher Bartlett's Desert Towers (and if you don't you should buy it immediately), turn to p. 238. Crusher included a lot of first-person stories in the book, and the one on p. 238 is by Jim Beyer.
It is a hate-filled rant about women and gays, mixed in with a big dose of "I'm the hardest climber in the world and I can do whatever I want, not just on my own routes, but on anybody else's as well, and if you don't like it, go f*#k yourself."
I've never met the man, and having read that piece, I never want to.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2014 - 10:13am PT
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Stooopid wannabee utopian Americans!!!
There has to be a villain in every society.
Americans are nothing but dystopians ......
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Nov 15, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2014 - 08:51am PT
"Judge not, that ye be not judged" Matthew 7: 1-3. Nuggets of truth can be found in even the poorest fiction.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 15, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Just read Beyer's essay in Desert Towers.....yikes! I know Sally Moser and i doubt that she was.....a chic who melted down and started sobbing and crying uncontrollably.....to paraphrase the author.
He uses words like sophistry to denigrate others but then refers to himself as having strength, endurance and HUBRIS. Perhaps he wasn't aware of the definition.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 15, 2014 - 11:01am PT
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If you have a copy of Crusher Bartlett's Desert Towers (and if you don't you should buy it immediately), turn to p. 238. Crusher included a lot of first-person stories in the book, and the one on p. 238 is by Jim Beyer.
It is a hate-filled rant about women and gays, mixed in with a big dose of "I'm the hardest climber in the world and I can do whatever I want, not just on my own routes, but on anybody else's as well, and if you don't like it, go f*#k yourself."
I've never met the man, and having read that piece, I never want to.
Yup. That's what I love about Beyer: He manages to reach the very edge of self-parody without quite going over that edge. He skirts that edge with rare skill. It's brave and is not calculated to make many friends.
I'm still uncertain as to how seriously he takes himself or any of his writing or climbing. Being so uncertain is maddening; never met anyone so hard to read. But, dammit, I find it fascinating, too.
Of course in person he's a fun, likable, regular guy. I've enjoyed all of the routes of his that I've done.
FWIW, I asked Sally about this essay and the meeting in question, before including the essay in the book. She was fine with it, had little recollection of the meeting at all.
EDIT: Perhaps instead of "Of course in person he's a fun, likable, regular guy" I should have written, "Of course in person I've always found him to be a fun, likable, regular guy." YMMV....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 15, 2014 - 11:09am PT
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Well, as you know, I think Desert Towers is one of the best climbing books ever written, so don't take my comments about Beyer's little piece as negative regarding your book.
He's obviously been a big player in the world of desert climbing, and while he comes across in his writing as a despicable misogynist, he's a part of the story.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 15, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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"Of course in person he's a fun, likable, regular guy." Or so sayeth Crunch.
Bottom line I think this is the nub of the "Jim Beyer problem." (That's a parody on Hitler's various "problems" with the ethnicities and Beyer has made it easy to fit him with this shoe). He is NOT that: likable "in person." I tried to chat him up once and got a cold, impersonal ("you are vermin") brush off. Crunch: what is your data? Does not look like it holds up under the flood of anecdotes herein to the contrary.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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I first "met" Jim in 1975 when he was soloing Sunshine (not as I have seen reported in 1974) when he was a few hundred meters away from me at Chasm View. Some climbers I knew had met him hiking in and described him as acting "as if he ate nails for breakfast."
The following year I saw him in the Valley in november, and I described my solo slab hauling technique that he put to good use soloing the Dihedral.
The next spring he refused to give me a one day start on my previous project, soloing the Shield and was rewarded with a stormy epic replete with a nearly severed rope.
He was friends with my "brother" Kyle, who likely would have 86ed him had he known of the anti-semitism.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 15, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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When people talk crazy, it's natural to believe they are actually sober and reasonable but for whatever reason, they are acting poorly and are in fact bad people. Truth is they are almost always just crazy. Beyer's climbing is impressive. I was up in the Valley recently and say him inching his way up the Captain. Solo. What he says about all and everything is just not relevant to my life. People get old and cranky. And crazy.
JL
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E
Ice climber
mogollon rim
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Nov 15, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
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so my buddy and I are walking along the base of the captain this fall, and about 50' up a guy was leading out on a string of taped on hooks. It was kind of a wierd setup cuz his belay was about 30' up the native son crack.
I was just commenting on the oddness when he slowly looks at me and says
"PSYCHO"
I think that he was telling us that he was psycho.
I knew that he was Jim Beyer....whoa!
EE
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 15, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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Say....is A5cR scarier than just plain ole A5c?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 15, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
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So if A5a rips the entire pitch, does A5b rip the entire pitch more, and does A5c rip the entire pitch more than more, and A5d rip the entire pitch more than more than more?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 15, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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A6 must mean the danger of ripping the entire pitch AND pulling your belay or belayer off of the wall. Then i have seen a Beyer route rated A6c......where does that lead us?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 15, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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One more time, the guy may use the rep he has, to advantage, but he is not a good person.
Rule #1= don’t effen phook the place up!
Yes since the late '80's, at least.
He and the reputation of some of his exploits
have been the reason for 'guides'
getting, ‘work’ from weekend warriors.
Cragman I love where you're coming from and June lake as well ((More pics of the dog,and the silver threads of ice growing down the rock))please.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Nov 15, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
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Jeremy said his "A6"belay was bullsh#t, so my previous stands....Eff that guy.
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poliszbob
Mountain climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 15, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
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Met guy once back in early 90's. Came across as a drunk as#@&%e, with a body more like of a greyhound buss driver then a climber.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
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Met him about a zillion years ago in camp four, I think maybe Dingus made introductions(?)
He was funny as hell! One story after the other! I think it was after that that he got arrested at Devils Tower, for not registering for a route, and then all these weird stories started coming out.
Just read that piece in Desert Towers, definitely marches to a beat most of us can't hear...
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 15, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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The wrong Beyer Klaus . . . I do wonder how he funds his constant climbing . . . maybe he's another trustafarian.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
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Back when I met him, I thought he was a carpenter...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 15, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
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Misogynist, anti-semite, arrogant a-hole.....all meant to wound but calling him a trustafarian has truly dire implications.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 15, 2014 - 07:51pm PT
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Seriously, anyone that wants some one to die repeating their routes is a threat, a homicidal maniac and a detriment to the climbing community.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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Even if " he is most gifted at soloing techno aid climbs."
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Nov 15, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
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What if he "can't even"?
This may help.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 15, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
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klaus,
The article was from the 2001 AAJ. The first climb was 1998 but another was 2000. So age 57 or so.
Like Crusher said, I am not sure if Beyer is serious with his names and ratings, or just trolling and laughing at the reaction they get.
In the AAJ article, it sounds like he was serious - upset with what had happened in his life and glad to escape for some climbs where it was just Man vs. Nature.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
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Didn't he also remove the Cookie Monster bolts?
Nope
Coiler ......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
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A young man aproximately the same age as myself....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 15, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
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How can whatever Jim says be relevant to your life if you don't let it be so? Sounds to me like he has his hands full with his own life? Don't we all . . .
JL
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 15, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
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Just ran into this post from ptpp on the WOEML thread,
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Aug 31, 2004 - 10:10am PT
Chopping bolts on WOEML is so passé...
One wonders why Jim didn't go up Highway To Hell and fill in all the bat holes.
Now that Beyer went up the first part of HTH for his new Hummus route link-up on El Cap, does anyone know if the bat holes are on the sections he went through?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 16, 2014 - 09:31am PT
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All of this is the result of too much climbing and little to no sex. Unhealthy lifestyle.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 16, 2014 - 09:39am PT
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How can whatever XXX says be relevant to your life if you don't let it be so?
Such a powerful thought, John. This is an awesome mantra to live with.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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"Parole officer," "anger management sessions"
 does anyone know if this literal truth? Or is it poetic license?
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Gobie
Trad climber
Northern, Ca.
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Nov 16, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
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you gotta go checkout his topo for hamas fights for freedom. classic beyer. it has a social statement at the bottom of the rack list. i guess to climb at this caliber for this many years you need to be really pissed at some entity the entire time.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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Link to Hamas topo?
Edit; MP, classic Rabid fare
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Nov 16, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
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heavy bread for the peanut gallery: topo was almost certainly written tongue in cheek. But if pillory is your thing, then it's your thing.
frankly, the most incendiary aspects of the topo are not the names of certain pitches but their ratings. As I wrote upstream, I find the political stuff mildly amusing. I was, and still am, much more curious as to whether someone witnessed the route going up and could thus substantiate the asserted direness of the climbing.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Nov 16, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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Lots of armchair climbing on the Taco.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 16, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
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Ratings in general are highly subjective and difficult to perceive from the ground. Beyer certainly gets after it though . . . the guy has been putting up routes for a long time.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 16, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
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Aid ratings, it seems to me, are more nebulous and subjective than free climbing ratings.
Free climbing ratings are a function (ideally) of the physical difficulty of the climb. Free climbing ratings are also more subjected to a consensus rating because they usually get numerous repeats.
Aid ratings are skewed by technological advances in equipment and many aid climbs receive few repeats.
Keep in mind that free climbs are all subjected to the same limitations of human physical capabilities while aid climbs can benefit immensely with advances in the equipment used for ascent.
One is limited by human physical ability (advances in equipment and technique play a lesser part), the other by technology and know how.Obviously the evolution of technolgical devices progresses much faster than the evolution of the human body.
Additionally, free climbing ratings are based on the likelihood of failure at a particular grade by a particular climber. I.E. a 5.11 climber will likely fail to do a 5.12 climb without falling.
Aid climbing grades are based on the PRESUMED likelihood of equipment failure and a
resulting fall at a particular grade. It is also presumed that good aid climbers will use their
equipment more effectively and have a higher chance of avoiding equipment failure
The incidence of failure by a particular climber at a particular grade in free climbing is extremely common and the high incidence of said failures confirm the validity of the grade.
The incidence of failure of the equipment placed by a particular aid climber at a particular grade is scant. There doesn't seem to be a sufficient population of failures to confirm aid ratings at any level....especially A5.
When something is lacking in objective confirmation criteria the door is open to subjective shenanigans.
edit: The above bs could only have come from a mind severely compromised by seaonal affective disorder,
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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Heading for Oblivion had some dumbshit randomness on it. Pick a method and use it. Duh?
The shenanigan pitch was named that, by us, for a reason.
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
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I'm surprised that nobody has referenced the aid rant yet (in this thread), so here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs
More seriously, I think it makes sense for a climber to stay away from an aid-climb until he/she is adequately prepared for it. The moment one takes out a drill or chisel (on something the first ascent party climbed without), it is the end of the story - it is not an ascent, it is a failure. Honesty demands that the climber go down, not up, and definitely not claim an ascent.
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
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Listening to the aid rant again: I notice a serious and interesting comment
immediately after the 5 minute mark. It's about climbing with a drill. He's
basically saying that climbing with a drill reduces the aid climb to a
guaranteed outcome.
Then he goes on to reinforce my point about admitting defeat if one fails to
climb honestly (e.g. takes out the drill) - the mountain won. But this
Messner-type message is too hard on large egos.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
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it is currently an acceptable practice on aid climb to drill bolts, rivets or bat hook holes for progress
This practice has been in vogue on many of the "modern" El Cap routes . . . many of them not so current.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
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the mountain won
It can never ever be defeated ever.
Only embraced ....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 17, 2014 - 07:35am PT
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Aid ratings are further compromised by the fact that every time the hammer is used the route is altered.
Here in Zion even clean aid walls are being altered by people over using spring loaded camming devices where nuts would work. Just the pivoting from rope movement is podding out the placements, as is tapping out nuts by the second.
Pretty much the only way to preserve walls is not to climb them. I'm not an armchair mountaineer, I'm a committed conservationist.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:08am PT
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Any comment from me about aid climbing is extreme noobishness but here goes.
As I have read Beyer accounts of his ascents and he refers to pulling out an ice axe (or any such tool for extreme xtension of reach) I have wondered about the phenomena of "If you have it, you will use it - and justify it!"
So if one lugs an ice axe on a solo aid climb (doesn't that just sound bizarre on its face) by GOD, it will get used. (Like the argument why we should not arm Generals in war with authority to use nuclear weapons.)
I will never take up aid climbing in any form, much less the extreme gear orgies of the modern genre, so again, so feel free to discount everything I say. This is the intardnet, so I too can be foolish at times and speak when I should be silent.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:17am PT
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So if one lugs an ice axe on a solo aid climb (doesn't that just sound bizarre on its face)
No it's not bizarre.
Lets say you're doing a winter ascent of a wall.
There's been many cases of people topping out to meet nothing but ice on the top with no options except to "Summit or Plummet".
Having and ice ax would have been a life saver.
We rescued some guys on the very last pitch of the regular route on Half Dome once because they got stuck there during a freak spring freezing overnight storm.
I could bring up several more examples that happened over the years where an ice ax would have been used had it been available on an aid wall.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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How about carrying an ice axe in the summertime on an aid route and using it as an extreme extension device on a rock pitch? Now does it sound bizarre? That's how I recall the Beyer account I have in mind. Of course, I do not dispute the logic in the scenarios that Herr Braun posits. I am humbled to be schooled by Werner, an authority I respect and to whom I will always defer.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:56am PT
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Always bring an iceax, got it! And a towel!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:01am PT
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There's a Valley local here who at times free solos the Steck Salathe in early spring with an ice ax for the descent.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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As the Larry says: Lots of armchair climbing on the Taco! Someone could go and repeat some of his routes... Indeed, they are in Yosemite, not in Moab.
To bring light to all these questions I just know one fundamentalist able to face the challenge: Richard Jensen (maybe Mark Smith could join the challenge too to give it a little bit more of credibility).
I guess an A5c(X) rating will motivate him to attempt a SA. It's not an A6 on the Towers, but A5c is very near and has more letters... We'll make a collection on McTopo to buy him a GoPro to prove his (their) claims and a publishing to edit the future book "Wings of wooden wedges on the wall. A record 39 days drilling holes on the face of El Capitan. A fascinating adventure and powerful Christian spiritual odyssey to downrate a A5 route to A3+.". If the money is enough maybe a film can be made too.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:24am PT
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Rivet hanger is back!!! Hooray! This thread has now reached epic status.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:26am PT
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Was that a cold breeze I just felt in this thread?
Mierda, que hace frío!
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Nov 17, 2014 - 11:17am PT
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Am I the only one thinking it sounds like ya'all are discussing a
drama queen ... not a badass .
A real badass doesn't have to let
everyone know that they are indeed a badass , and then remind them
lest they forget.
I gotta say , these threads that read like the national enquirer
are some of the most entertaining.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 17, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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Well, the guy is a legitimate badass. Perhaps one with an additional need for drama, but a badass nonetheless.
Any and al other assertions about the personality may be true as well. Haven't met him.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 17, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
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Beyer is yet another craftsman whiling his craft with his artistic interpretation on the vertical. I've got respect for his routes, but not for his opinionated political views, which tend toward generalising and racism.
He definitely fights for what he believes in. Saw him attack Roland in the Camp 4 parking lot (indeed, Roland was fueling the feud by revving a power drill Rambo style), which put the three of us sitting on our hands with several LEO guns pointing at us (I was an innocent bystander :).
The only dodgy thing I ever heard of him doing was to re-toprope sections of a first ascent on the West Face and then called it a free section on the topo. But otherwise he's ascended some pretty spectacular sections of rock all over the world, in his own unique style. I don't reckon he's abused the resource, mainly because he has a vision so unique the resource would not otherwise be considered a resource at all.
As Mick sings,
Let's drink to the hard working people
Let's drink to the salt of the earth
Let's drink to the two thousand million
Let's think of the humble of birth
Let's drink to the hard working people
Let's think of the lowly of birth
Spare a thought for the rag taggy people
Let's drink to the salt of the earth
Beyer fits in there somewhere (as do we all at times), I reckon...
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
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BJ
climber
Nov 15, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
The report is 1998 climbs, but in the 2001 AAJ. So he should be 58?
I think we did those climbs in 2000
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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I miss my good brother deuce4 ......
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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Hola mi amigos of dog mother Americanos!
Mi hombre Beyer is "the hombre" and has the A6 blood and gives esperanza to the Spanish man who does the escalante d'Aid! The American Dogs try to bring him down because they no have the A6 blood and soft erections on the A6.
Viva Beyer and VIVA Espania you dogs of America!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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Miss you too, Werner! But the spirit and peace of our shared conversations still are part of my compass in life. I do imagine showing up at the cache one of these years to give you and Merry a big hug (then hopefully get dragged up one or two of those climbs we used to solo). Cheers
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 17, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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"it is currently an acceptable practice on aid climb to drill bolts, rivets or bat hook holes for progress or safety on existing Aid Wall routes if the climber feels it's unsafe or just plain can't figure out the moves."
Eric/Klaus - who says this is acceptable behaviour? Who considers it acceptable? I don't, and I've never done it. [although of course I have been accused of it!]
Donini - dude, that was good. You must be smarter than you look. ;)
j-tree - my understanding of Highway To Hell is that the bottom two pitches are mostly drilled bathole ladders linking the rappel anchors below Native Son creating a contrived but direct route up to the big ledge there, whatever it's called.
To those of you who don't aid climb, a bathole is a shallow drilled hole that you have to hook. Originally used to avoid placing a rivet or bolt, they are generally considered these days to be artificially inflating the rating of an aid pitch, and are rarely used. They fell out of favour thirty or more years ago. The general consensus of opinion these days [and there are always exceptions] is that "if you have to drill because there is nothing on the rock that will allow upward progress, then you should fill the hole with a rivet." Many aid climbs contain rivet ladders spanning blank sections of rock between cracks or other climbable features.
Highway To Hell is a significant recent exception. The first ascensionists chose to drill a ladder of batholes. A pitch that might have been an A1 rivet ladder is now an A5 bathole ladder. Is this legit, or not? What if I climb the route with twenty Talon hooks, twenty Screamers, and a roll of duct tape, and put a hook for pro in every hole? Is it A5, or A1? I don't know, I haven't climbed it. But if I did, you know what I'd be bringing....
Another recent route [1997] that used a lot of bathook holes is Continental Drift. Certainly the holes, rather than rivets, make the climb harder and scarier! I climbed that one, and found the climbing really good, but the batholes were a bit disappointing to me. There were no bathook ladders on CD, just holes here and there where the FA'ists chose to drill a shallow hole, rather than place a rivet. Although sometimes you find a dozen or more bathook holes on a single pitch.
But a big problem with batholes is that as more and more ascensionists hook them, the rock gets rounded and eventually, the hole is no longer useable, which is an argument that Piton Ron raises above.
So that's why not many people use bathook holes these days.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
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But a big problem with batholes is there is nothing there to begin with and it was forced to create a new variation.
When there's nothing there "A line of least resistance" then you force it with with various tools to give yourself the illusion it's there ......
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 17, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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then you force it with with various tools to give yourself the illusion it's there ......
These are batshit holes. Guano routes with lotsa batshit holes.
Duct tape=A1, Pete thats funny.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 17, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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We have seen these men before, these Beyers. Their myths are awful and always flawed.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
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It's a good thing nobody cares what aid climbers do nowadays
or this could turn into a real kerfuffle.
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l-b-1
climber
new york
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Nov 18, 2014 - 01:14am PT
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There are NO bathook hole ladders on HtH.
Who said there are? Pete go and climb the route, instead of imitating the grossman...
The first pitch is scary on natural hooks.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 18, 2014 - 04:15am PT
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Pete made later statements that I didn't know about and weren't reflected in my earlier post (or even his more recent post) so looks like pete has known about the natural hooking for long enough to forget about it. what's that they say about old dads, they forget more than we have time to learn? Accusing him of acting like Grossman is just low.
From the thread about which routes haven't had second ascents back in 2008...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Jun 26, 2008 - 12:32am PT
Highway to Hell - which I thought was an A0 bathook ladder, but looks upon closer inspection to have some scary-ass natural hooking.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=621685&msg=621723#msg621723
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:36am PT
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I respect all kinds of climbing
it is about getting after it
getting it done
bi error sucks
Go ahead and do what ever you want
It is a free world,
If the -ickwad schmegma
Had his way it would not be
He would have been beheaded
As an Interloping infidel
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 18, 2014 - 07:45am PT
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but not for his opinionated political views, which tend toward generalising and racism.
And there's the rub for me Deuce4. After that, no respect, don't care what his climbs are like. Especially if he's making them artificially dangerous, sandbagging and booby trapping others, and then blowing smoke up his own overinflated ass.
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AndrewC
climber
Oakland California
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Nov 18, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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I'm not on supertopo much, but I saw this thread about Jim Beyer and I have to comment. That guy is hard core and changed my perspective on hard climbing forever. I met him in curry village after he got down from Martyr's Brigade about 12 years ago. I did a lot of hard aid climbing back then. I asked him about the route. He told me about the ice axe on the extension pole and other hard core stuff.
Then he said something that has forever changed the way I understand climbing. He said that he was having a good time climbing super hard pitches that were turning out to be great A4 or A5 with long stretches of sketchy hooks and beaks, but then a little crack would open up for a bomber alien placement, and he was pissed because now he had to down-rate the pitch to A3. "Damn aliens, they ruin hard aid climbing. They make everything so easy."
I realized that he truly wanted it to be really difficult. He climbed because it was hard. Most of us are on climbs just praying for the next hold to be a jug, or the next placement to be a bomber cam so we can be solid. Jim was the other way around. He climbed because he wanted it to be hard, and wanted the challenge and the danger. He wanted to be at his limit. He was disappointed when it was easy. He was there to push himself to his limits for real. Not like we do. But to really push them.
Instead of being relieved when he got a bomber placement, he was disappointed. Think about that for a minute.
I did the Sea of Dreams that same trip to Yosemite, and I was with a hard core alpinist that I was teaching how to aid climb. I was cleaning a pitch that he had lead, and there was a bomber lost arrow splitter crack that had no gear in it at all. I asked him why he had not placed gear. He had decided it was too easy, so he went hooking on edges out to the side just to make it harder and to see if he could do it. He wanted it to be hard. He turned an easy A3 pitch into A5 just for the hell of it. He had the same attitude as Beyer, which is why the Sea of Dreams was his second aid climb and it wasn't even hard enough for him.
After that talk with Jim Beyer I started looking forward to hard climbing rather than dreading it. A5 became awesome instead of dreadful. It changed everything for me for both free and aid climbing. I climb so much harder when I have that attitude, and I have a more fulfilling experience. Even when I am out of shape,flailing on easy free climbs, I can have the same fulfilling experience because as long as I'm pushing my current physical or mental limit, it doesn't matter if it is 5.11 or 5.13. I have come to realize that this is the unifying theme of climbing.
He also likes to keep people honest that repeat his routes. He told me he sometimes puts tape over the clipping loop on any fixed gear he leaves so that it cannot be stick clipped. That's legit.
Beyer is a hardman that cannot be understood unless one has climbed significant amounts of true A5, including first ascents. However, we can all learn from his attitude about embracing difficulty and fear.
His attitude toward hard climbing explains a lot of the stuff he does I think. My guess is that he does new routes and climbs alone and uses different styles than the rest of us because that is the only way he can actually climb as hard as he is able to climb, and to get as scared as he wants to. He is so far beyond all of us in technical skill that repeating routes is probably just not challenging. He climbs how he wants to, and that should be respected. Climbing is anarchy. That's the whole point.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
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don't care what his climbs are like. Especially if he's making them artificially dangerous, sandbagging and booby trapping others, and then blowing smoke up his own overinflated ass.
Bingo.
AndrewC sounds like hero worship eclipses your judgement, or do you also have hate for my people.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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TV says
"And before you remind me of my so regrettably pedestrian routes, you should bear in mind that I've put in time on the sharp end of serious aid climbs BITD, so I have walked the talk my friend."
BITD? Beyer is still doing it
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 18, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
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That's legit.
Not.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Whatever John and Andrew.. couldnt care less. The guy is not only racist he is publicly promoting racism. He can f*#k off. Now climbing as a sport has to make appologies for his FA decades from now.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
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On I forgot this is a political forum pretending to be a climbing forum
Actually this really is another public butchering of someone's reputation and character behind their back. You guys should be proud!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Not really the topo is on Mountain trip. His own words don't have any defense. I'm stating this publicly not behind his back.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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Yeah through a keyboard while using a fake name you're slinging insults at a guy who doesn't know it's happening. You're from wasilla right?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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Finding my name is 3 clicks away. Hmm maybe Beyer is the one hiding? More likely he doesn't give a sh#t. Or he's maybe enjoying the attention..Maybe he is out climbing
Or maybe he is just dumb and thought he was making a valid point. I'd be willing to bet the guy can be quite cool and decent at times. Hell probably most of the time. I'd imagine thats true for even many of the worst people. Too bad, Condoning and publically promoting anti-semitism just once ruins any public legacy. Climbing is not even relevant to the conversation on a scale of things important in the world.
One thing for sure his route topo is a sad thing to see.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
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"Climbing is not even relevant"? This is (was) a climbing forum. You sure he's the dummy?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Nov 18, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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He's put up some good climbs on Wall Street in Moab
Astrolad
Wide eyed deer
And Fantom Sprint is the most natural line in the fishers. He must have been bored silly on that one.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 18, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
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I'm not sue if Jim Beyer is busy but people on the forum definetly are....carry on!
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AndrewC
climber
Oakland California
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Nov 18, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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Ron,
I don't have any heroes. I've climbed long enough to know better.
Beyer's attitude toward hard climbing is inspiring to me, that's all. I think his attitude gets right to the heart of climbing. I think he is largely misunderstood because he is a loner who climbs harder than anyone else in a style that few can appreciate for what it really is.
His attitude explains a lot of why he does what he does. I think we should try appreciate it and respect it for what it is--just a guy out there spending time alone being scared in dangerous situations.
Most of the negative comments against Beyer come from people who cannot possibly understand him or what he does because they have never climbed a significant amount truly hard aid, or done big wall first ascents, or known him personally. Or the negative comments are based on politics. Either way, it's a joke.
I posted to this thread because I had an interesting experience talking to Jim Beyer and I came away from that conversation realizing that the way he sees climbing is very unique, and very intense. That guy is hard core. He is in a league all his own.
So what if we don't agree with his style or personality? He is out there alone, climbing dangerous stuff, doing what he wants. I think it is impressive that he seeks out the pressure of constant dangerous hard aid for days and days up there alone. Anyone who has been strung out in the middle of a real A5 hooking pitch and felt the pressure of realizing how absolutely trapped you are, you know what I'm talking about. Someone who gets scared on an A3 trade route is unlikely to fully understand what Beyer does or why he is so hard core.
But regardless of all that, everyone can benefit from seeing a climber with the attitude that he climbs because it's hard. This is a difficult concept to communicate, but Beyer's comment about being disappointed when he got a bomber placement is significant. It left me with the impression that he isn't up on El Cap just to be in the mountains, or to have fun, or to post pictures, or for the glory of an FA. He is there to have an intense experience and stretch himself mentally as much as physically possible.
I think that's awesome.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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he is a loner who climbs harder than anyone else I believe this is what Ron was getting at, when he mentioned "hero worship". (I got the same impression).
It would be hard to prove "he climbs harder than anyone else".
He rates stuff hard, but I'm not sure if he is just joking.
When his "A6" route Intifada was repeated, there was some genuine hard climbing,
but not harder than other climbs. Plus some contrived runouts.
http://www.jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
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Most of the negative comments against Beyer come from people who cannot possibly understand him or what he does because they have never climbed a significant amount truly hard aid, or done big wall first ascents, or known him personally. Or the negative comments are based on politics.
Not me.
Not me.
Not me.
And not me.
And finally he is calling me a war criminal. That is a bit more than mere politics.
And John Kelly, if you aren't hiding behind an avatar what have you done?
At least I've done it and haven't ruled out further solo walls when my epichondrial tendonitis heals. (From virgin rock last month)
And nice job quoting out of context. I didn't consider them pedestrian but was snarking a d#@&%e.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
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John Kelly has done lots of good climbs - just check his trip reports.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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Well thats encouraging. Many solo virgin walls?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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Yeah a few. Plenty of solo routes. Exclusively alpine routes for the last dozen or so years. Plenty of virgin summits.
Guess this thread is gonna turn into another beat on everyone
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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Anybody call you a war criminal lately?
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Nov 18, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
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I remember back in the early/mid 90's, I was in the process of updating the guidebook for the Durango area. Jim had been quite active here during that time and he gave me a list of FA's he had done on the scrappy cliffs around town. Also there was a note as to what was acceptable as far as bolts and ground-up vs. rap bolting. I found it to be offensively narcissistic.
He seemed a nice enough guy in my few brief encounters with him. I remember him asking about a certain bolted route, which was bolted by Kurt Smith, who didn't stay around long enough to redpoint. Not long after that, the hangers were flattened.
He doesn't repeat routes or climb the same thing twice, ever. It seemed like he was doing routes (always ground-up) claiming ground to prevent anyone from rap bolting. There are choss routes EVerywhere, with mank and tat hanging in the most queer places around here. It was indeed politically motivated, no doubt.
It's all fine to be a fringe dweller (one of his route names) and climb on your own terms, but to expect respect from anyone, is again the height of narcisism. If we find any of this ground to be decent freeclimbing, we just remove the boobie trap mankies and bolt over it.
Anyway, aid climbing 40 foot routes and calling them free climbs doesn't get a guy into the guidebook. All of it seemed quite dubious and contrived.
Interesting thread!
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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Tim I was in Durango during the same period and that's not what I saw...
The idea that one guy climbing, usually alone, with a hand drill can outpace a heard of power drilling sport climbers is absurd.
Areas like the Lake Wall, mostly Beyer routes, instantly became popular. Loiter Land, while less popular, is another example...
BTW- The best stone near Durango is the granite north of Bakers Bridge... Rex Wolters, Jim Beyer, and I put in many, many high quality lines up there. All ground up, hand drilled, some easy, some hard...
Durango was a strange place in those times. Nearly everybody would bitch anytime a new route went in. Usually the bitch was "there's not enough pro". Climbing in Durango was like being in a popularity contest. If someone deemed you uncool well that meant your routes sucked too...
Your guide reflects that as well. You didn't bother to contact the people who had put up 3/4's of the new routes since the old guide came out. None of us were cool enough for your book. But we didn't care... We were busy
"We just remove the boobie trap mankies and bolt over it". That's obviously true. Many routes in that area were retrobolted, renamed, and credited to the retrobolters as FA's.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Nov 18, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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But a big problem with batholes is there is nothing there to begin with and it was forced to create a new variation.
When there's nothing there "A line of least resistance" then you force it with with various tools to give yourself the illusion it's there ......
Exactly. And to follow that logic, Batholes are equal to chipping.
Both are permanent modifications to the rock to allow artificial passage.
Why are batholes acceptable but chipping isn't????
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 18, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
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How is a bat hook hole better then a rivet or bolt? There's a hole either way
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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How is a bat hook hole better then a rivet or bolt? There's a hole either way
Well, we certainly agree on that,(including drilled holes that one widgetsanything into) common ground.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 18, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
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Eight or ten years ago, I was highly amused to hear of an escaped mental patient, hiding from the butterfly nets on the face of El Capitan, senselessly smashing WOEML belay bolt hangers flat because he thought they made his new route "too easy". Even better, the man in need of a straight-jacket was destroying anchors on Harding's classic, existing route because the bolts "ruined" the extreme rating (A7G RRRXXX, or whatever) of his new route.
Later, I learned that mental patient's name was Jim Beyer.
Maybe, Beyer will someday actually do an "A7" route.
To be a real A7 pitch, none of the aid or pro pieces and none of the belay pieces are allowed to hold even body weight. Even a group of belay pieces, equalized, are not allowed to hold body weight. And the pitch must begin off a very narrow ledge, or foothold. And the pitch can't be the first one of the route, but must be high off the deck.
As soon as the climber steps off the foothold to weight his first aid placement of the A7 pitch, it pulls, the belay fails, he falls and he dies.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 19, 2014 - 12:30am PT
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Cummins, why should people believe Jensen & Smith version? I don't know if A6 exists or not (I guess the consensus is it ain't), but hidden drilled holes under cement to make a SA impossible? And the SA team are so clever that they find it out? A huge cam crack hidden under tones of mud that turn A4 into A1? Beyer is so intelligent to know that the rain will hide than crack? Really?
And talking about "hero worship", Jensen writes: "Mark and I had decided before making our journey that we were committed to doing the route, no matter how hard it might be. We had talked at great length about possible death-anchor configurations and how we might improve our chance--without drilling. We had decided that if we had to risk death-anchors to do the route, we would take whatever risks were required. We wanted to see what A6 was really like. We were honestly willing to die to find out." Without drilling? he means that usually he drills during SA? WTF? Since "Saving Private Ryan" that I didn't see so brave man (that's why they are known as "Balls of Steel"). And it's very ironic that after being 39 days on a route in el Cap claiming it's A5, Ammon downrates it to A3+. A route plenty of bathooks by the way (about 140 I guess)...
The thing on Beyer is very simple I guess. Why don't people go to repeat Martyr's brigade or that new routes and explain it here or in a magazine?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:34am PT
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why should people believe Jensen & Smith version?[Intifada second ascent trip report] I believe Richard's statements about what they did on their climb, what they saw, and that the photos they present are honest and real.
I also believe their assessment of the grade (of the climb as they found it).
As to whether I believe their judgement on what Beyer's intentions were?
That is a subjective decision that could go either way.
It would be hard to provide conclusive evidence for that.
As for whether it was "A6" the way Beyer chose to do it?
I don't know.
But they showed it didn't need to be A6, and they didn't have to drill to make that happen.
You are asking a lot of questions, like you have in the past.
Those questions were all answered in the other threads as I recall,
and then you would just ask them again.
So you are back.
If you really want answers, read the previous thread.
If you don't believe the answers provided there, I can't help you.
I'm happy to discuss other stuff with you, but you seem intent on proving
that Richard was lying and the burden of proof to do that takes a lot more
than just asking the same questions repeatedly.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:31am PT
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I'm not asking a lot of questions, just being sarcastic. The answers are really clear.
The thing, indeed, which right, ain't new, is that I do not understand why Jensen/Smith, on one hand, recive so much credibility and on the other, some people are always suspected. That's double funny when years later Jensen acts like a judge and accuses people of doing what he did 140 times in the past. I'll take every single chance to remember it each time I can...
And about Beyer, I do insist: the routes are there waiting for a SA that no one seems to face even if they are in the beloved Yosemite.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 19, 2014 - 06:35am PT
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I believe his Yosemite routes await SAs because 1) they have really hard ratings and not many people who climb that hard and 2) Beyer has done some pretty lame things on his other routes that make an SA highly undesirable. A few examples are booby trapping routes with filed-down rivets that will pull under bodyweight and holes made for progress that are subsequently patched and camouflaged. I don't know if his new routes have these sort of shenanigans on them but they have been found on past routes of his.
Beyer's worshipers keep saying that in the mountains and you can do what you want. I disagree. You cannot manufacture a route with the idea of intentionally creating a artificial danger for the subsequent ascentionists. This shows a basic lack of respect for other human beings and for the rock.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2014 - 07:03am PT
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There is clearly a difference between one's climbing ability and character. You can celebrate one and not the other
If, however, a defect in character results in a booby trapped route you have a situation i don't think i have ever seen before in my 50 years of climbing.
Is there real evidence of booby trapped climbs or is it just hearsay?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2014 - 08:35am PT
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Yeah where's the "booby trap evidence"? This forum get more lame everyday. Lots of bitchin and no action. Someone go repeat the routes in question. Some of the newer ones....
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:04am PT
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I agree John Kelley!
Since RP3 is a scientist, it's odd that he doesn't give the name of the sources as people with scientific formation usually do. However, I guess maybe "holes made for progress that are subsequently patched and camouflaged" comes from Jensen & Smith SA of Intifada (you can read it in the link that Cummins send yesterday if you can swallow the hole Jensen's verbal diarrhoea always saturated of suspicion towards Beyer from the very beginning). I do think that's not true, but it's my opinion. But since Jensen sees "eurobashies" instead of leadheds and "wood wedges" which, according to him, require to bring a saw on the wall to cut'em insitu, much is revealed...
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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Sounds like Johkelly and Rivet hanger just made plans to go repeat Beyer's brand new route.
Cool, guys. Thanks. So many times no-one actually steps up to act when it's said that "…someone should repeat…." Will you report back here once you're done please?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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How is a bat hook hole better then a rivet or bolt? There's a hole either way
BITD of true dirtbags, it actually made perfect sense in some cases. Yes, it's still a hole, but many guys just couldn't afford large quantities of bolts and hangers. Rivets, I don't know. Never bought any myself.
Yeah definitely John. Do a good trip report!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:18am PT
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The Fishers are ideal ground for for "patching" small holes. It wouldn't be hard to hide if scratches at a marginal placement misled a subsequent leader.
Not my style though. I've often gotten criticized for making routes too user friendly.
I hear that once routes get broken in there they are pretty solid, but FAs are a choss and mud fest. It is why I've never climbed there despite it being the first rock in Utah that I scoped out (I spotted Sun Devil, but then 3 months later met Harvey Carter who told me it had been done.)
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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There is clearly a difference between one's climbing ability and character. You can celebrate one and not the other
If, however, a defect in character results in a booby trapped route you have a situation i don't think i have ever seen before in my 50 years of climbing.
Is there real evidence of booby trapped climbs or is it just hearsay?
Yes, Donini, absolutely; and there certainly is a lot of hearsay floating around about Beyer. Beyer is also responsible for disseminating plenty of that info/fuel himself. In addition, he's spent 15 years telling everybody who will listen that he doesn't believe I soloed Thor, even though there are photos of me both on the ledge that he bailed from and standing on top. So he's no stranger to spouting and fielding nonsense; he's a big boy and his admirers can rest easy knowing that he can take care of himself.
This is neither slander nor hearsay: I'm not saying what someone else told me about Jim, things I vaguely remember hearing about him around a campfire, or making stuff up to simply damage his reputation. Jim told me that he booby traps his routes and that his number one goal is for somebody to die on them. "The greatest honor," he proudly pronounced it. Among other things, he told me that he tapes all of his hangers and gear he can't get out, then he swings around off to the sides and places cheater-stick-bait booby traps. I'm simply incapable of making that up. He also attacked me and chased me around the tundra growling, "I'll kill you!!" so it's had for me to imagine why I should continue being quiet about it.
Personally, I much rather keep my mouth shut and stay out of it. I also heard him say plenty of vile and asinine things that would be great character assassiantion material but I'm not talking about those. The principle of non-aggression, however, is something I take seriously and I'm reporting two scenarios I consider to fall under that banner. I don't think a person should be able do or say things like that without some kind of consequence. A person should absolutely have to answer for those kinds of statements and behavior. Regardless of what you think about me (or him attacking me) booby trapping is a public issue and this, to my knowledge, is by far the best venue for airing that. If there are people out there who don't think I should say anything about this then it's exactly the same as saying that the women who accuse Bill Cosby of having drugged and raped them should keep their mouths shut because of his power/bullying, the risk of damaging his reputation, and because some people really like/approve of his work a lot. We'll then hear all kinds of excuses like "well, there was booze involved...", "you're a liar", or "those kinds of things just shouldn't be raised in public."
Thus, it is exactly the same as I said before, if Jim is to be taken at his word then I merely suggest being careful around him and his routes. It's not like he was asking me not to tell anyone what he said, to the contrary, he was telling everybody who would listen to the extent that a couple of Inuk were compelled to remark that, "He's pretty crazy, even for a white guy." And they know a thing or two about crazy white guys up there.
I'm totally willing to believe that I'm the one who is the jerk here. So: "Jim Beyer, I'm really sorry that I was friendly and encouraging to you on the phone when I gave you all the information you asked you for and more. I'm also sorry that I treated you impartially with kindness when we met and I cooked you dinner. I'm sorry that I proceeded to run away, like a scared child, when you attacked me. I'm sorry you have felt the need to discredit my ascent that I am, in turn, deeply sorry to have done ahead of you. I'm sorry you could't climb Thor from base-to-summit or even inside of year. And above all, I'm really sorry that you claim to both booby trap your routes and earnestly hope for the deaths of others. All I can offer is my gratitude for all that you have given to the climbing community and maybe the opportunity to assault me again in the future."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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I believe you. It fits.
The irony of course is that while Jim and I are diametrically opposed as to the types of routes we put up, my user friendly routes attract heavy traffic with the result that 5 people have died on them.
I don't blame myself, but it certainly doesn't feel good. For somebody to exult in the death of another as some sort of validation is sociopathic.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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Regarding booby trapping: I have never personally seen evidence of this. That is just what I have heard from many people who seem reliable to me. You are correct to say that perhaps it is a piece of fiction that is becoming accepted truth by repetition. However, like I said, I have heard about this from many people I trust.
Regarding patching holes to make the route appear more difficult: I will cite every piece of internet and print media about subsequent ascents of Intifida. I will let you do your own googleing.
There are few things I hate more than arguing over the internet. I apologize if I offended either of you by calling you a "Beyer Worshiper". People can choose to admire whomever they choose. Beyer is not my personal choice, but if he is yours, go for it. I guess....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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I hate this thread ... A Grapefruit sized rock to the face ?? hmm not a gumby but a well seasoned well respected man who will not pass or point blame.... just asking...??
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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I can't find any reason not to believe gumbyclimber. His comments are the most credible evidence in this thread so far.
However I for one am not particularly concerned about what the "evidence" shows regarding Beyer's "climbing" abilities. On this subject, Donini is both right and wrong. Yes, there is "clearly a difference between one's climbing ability and character."
But I disagree that a person "can celebrate one and not the other."
I can't do that. What Beyer wrote on his own topo marks him as a racist/anti-semite and a low-life. That's what he'll always be, a low-life. And he'll stay a low-life even if he free solos the Nose.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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"I have never personally seen evidence of this". Yet you don't seem to have any problem spreading the rumor...
Has anyone seen any intentional booby traps?
The only "booby traps" on the routes Beyer and I did together are the 60' runouts on .11/.12 pitches.
Now go repeat some of his newer lines and report back
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 19, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
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Btw, I do not think that beyer had anything to do with "the grapefruit sized rock" that clobbered my face the other week. I just saw the thread pop up again, and thought it was a chance for some synchronous humor!
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
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You got me, John Kelly. I have not personally seen this and I may have participated in spreading a rumor. I am only citing the experience of people I know.
Then again, have you personally seen an atom? You believe in their existence because people who are credible to you have told you they exist.
I share a similar attitude towards the alleged booby traps.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
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Booby trapping, were it to lead to injury is likely a felony offense.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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and if it led to a fatality .. then what ?
It could all be talk and since few seem to be interested in
repeating his routes maybe we'll never know. Crazy talk though,
not statements that most of us would make sittin' round the
campfire.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
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Long scary falls without injury are just misdemeanors.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
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But they have now identified post long, scary fall syndrome. Has driven climbers to surfing or, in really serious cases, mountain biking.
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Gimp
Trad climber
Missoula, MT & "Pourland", OR
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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Donini this begs the question of whether PLSFS is a state or federally compensable disability? If so do you have a link to the form to fill out?
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
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60' runouts on .11/.12 pitches.
(!)
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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Yeah Tim way over your head!
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
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myths and ledgends
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
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60' runouts on .11/.12 pitches
Caught my eye too. That's some world class climbing, even in this age.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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Has anyone seen any intentional booby traps? I agree with johnkelly (and also Rivet hanger) on this - insufficient evidence.
In the Intifada repeat, I recall was just Richard Jensen's guess that the bathook holes may have been intentionally filled in with sand.
I believe Richard stated himself that rains could have brought mud down the wall and filled in some of the holes.
It would be difficult to prove intent.
As for when Beyer states himself he boobytraps his routes,
it might be true, or he might be trolling.
I'd like to see a report/photo of an actual boobytrapped placement.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
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Intentional booby trapping placements with premeditated intent to cause bodily harm to an unsuspecting climber would definitely fall under a felony conviction.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
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Jim told me that he booby traps his routes and that his number one goal is for somebody to die on them. "The greatest honor," he proudly pronounced it. Among other things, he told me that he tapes all of his hangers and gear he can't get out, then he swings around off to the sides and places cheater-stick-bait booby traps.
Just saying that about a route/routes you put up, whether a troll or not, seems just bizarre.
I guess it's the flip side of the "we put up routes so others can enjoy them" coin.
Each to their own, I guess.
Sad irony, Piton Ron.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
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Heading for Oblivion wasn't booby trapped; just botched. Shame too, as the rest of it was pretty cool.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Nov 19, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
60' runouts on .11/.12 pitches
"Caught my eye too. That's some world class climbing, even in this age."
Go for the repeat. It's on the South Face of Moran. The South Buttress Drifter needs a repeat too. It's pretty good and not very dangerous. No booby traps on either.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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There is clearly a difference between one's climbing ability and character.
Are you sure? I don't think you've been paying attention here on Supertopo, Jim. That opinion puts you in the minority.
Also. Following that that line of thought would excise almost all of the content from climbing; the conformity, herd behavior, hero worship, and group think.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 19, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
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Intentional booby trapping placements with premeditated intent to cause bodily harm to an unsuspecting climber would definitely fall under a felony conviction.
Wow, Werner has secured a conviction without even a trial!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 19, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
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Gumbyclimber,
That is very interesting stuff you relate, under an anonymous avatar.
Can you please identify yourself? Only with identity can you have credibility. Some here may know who you are, but most of us do not.
Thanks,
Peter Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Pete.....in identifying yourself you remain in a distinct minority on this forum. Hard to call out specific people when most still remain shrouded behind their avatars.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 19, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
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Apparently the evidence I cited could not pass supertopo peer-review! I think I let my personal distaste for somebody get in the way of complete and total objectivity. I too would like to see photographic evidence for what I have so often heard. Perhaps one should never judge a climber by his/her reputation!
If you are watching this thread, Jim Beyer, I apologize for pre-judgement of your routes. They are certainly hard-as-nails by any standard.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 20, 2014 - 12:41am PT
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I don't know why you think I'm a "Beyer Worshiper" just because I say that you do not quote the sources. I think quoting is just a matter of fairness.
And according to Intifada SA report from Jensen (you can find it here: http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html go there quickly, maybe Jensen decides to remove the web page as he did with the SA of Look out Danger! [www.conclusivesystems.com]):
But, there were more of Beyer's "special" tactics in store. At the end of one copperhead seam was a blank area about eight feet across before another seam started. This was almost identical to the fifth pitch where Beyer had used his first bat hooks, so I started looking for the holes. Nothing. I went up and down my aiders carefully searching for some hint of what Beyer had done. Nothing. Dismally I turned my attention to the only feature I could reach on the entire blank section: a tiny flake. "No," I said to myself, "There's no way Beyer hooked that! Even good flakes lower down have been deeply modified or ignored." I took the nail punch and reached over. Rooting the tip of the nail punch around the top of the flake revealed the truth. In the wall behind the flake was a deep quarter inch hole--packed with sand!
I tried to duplicate any natural action which could have deposited sand in that hole. Loose flowing sand would not collect there. That section of wall was completely free from mud flows; it was some of the best rock on the route. Lower down on the route, not a single hole was filled in this fashion, even in places that were obvious mud flows. There is simply no way that hole could have naturally filled up. The only way I could get sand to stick there was to mix spit with dirt and pack it in with my fingertip. Every hole from there to the top of the climb was packed with sand. So, now we were playing a new game: try to find where Beyer went, while following a sabotaged route! This added much frustration and many hours to the rest of the climb as we painstakingly avoided adding holes to the route, while trying to figure out where Beyer would have drilled (and then filled).
And in the epilogue:
Whatever Beyer ends up saying about where the route ended up, nothing changes the facts of what we found on the route: deeply enhanced hooking, trenched heads, bat hooks, drilled angles, and a sabotaged route in the form of intentionally filled holes to keep people from figuring out what to do and make the climb seem harder than it is. Of these facts I am certain. Since Beyer doesn't publish topos of his "harder creations," and since he insists on doing his routes solo, he can essentially claim anything he wants about his routes. However, with some effort, much like revealing his sand-packed holes, one can discover the truth.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 20, 2014 - 05:41am PT
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nothing changes the facts of what we found on the route: deeply enhanced hooking, trenched heads, bat hooks, drilled angles, and a sabotaged route in the form of intentionally filled holes to keep people from figuring out what to do and make the climb seem harder than it is.
I am sure there has to be a reason.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 20, 2014 - 05:50am PT
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Jim told me that he booby traps his routes
Now I know the truth.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Nov 20, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
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johnkelley - Beyer has stated in the past (AAJ, for instance) that the "free" ratings on some of his climbs aren't for what we would think of the modern free climbing standard, the redpoint. In fact he is on record as stating that many of these "free" pitches are, for instance, first aided, then climbed on a fixed rope using an ascender, possibly with hangs. They never really get led free.
He justified it by saying that that is better than rap bolting.
Can you comment on these tactics?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 20, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
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The routes we did were lead free onsight. That was the goal anyway. If we pulled on gear or hung we'd add an A0 to the rating.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 20, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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If that's the case it sounds, to me, like he was pretty honest about how he came up with the ratings...
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
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pages upon pages about a guy who doesnt wank on the internet, nice work folks! whos up for an A5?
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Nov 20, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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whos up for an A5?
depends -- are we talking A5b or A5c++?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
Nov 20, 2014 - 12:41am PT
I don't know why you think I'm a "Beyer Worshiper" just because I say that you do not quote the sources. I think quoting is just a matter of fairness.
And according to Intifada SA report from Jensen (you can find it here: http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html go there quickly, maybe Jensen decides to remove the web page as he did with the SA of Look out Danger! [www.conclusivesystems.com]):
https://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/
Damn Rivet, I'd expect you to act like an ass, but being stupid just doesn't live up to the high bar set by your troll account.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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A5c+R/X *** should do in a pinch.
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Nov 20, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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he is on record as stating that many of these "free" pitches are, for instance, first aided, then climbed on a fixed rope using an ascender, possibly with hangs.
That's his standard MO. At least that's how many of his routes were reported to me as guidebook contribution. Since much of the new routing being done at the time was the work of he and his disciples, it prompted the subtitle "A Guide To Area Freeclimbs ?". The question mark was just that, and it was hard do decipher just what tactics were being employed besides just straight aid climbing.
When you live on the fringe and climb on the fringe, inventing your own rating systems and such, it's easy to become a mythical figure in the game only you are playing.
Maestri-esque
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 21, 2014 - 12:42am PT
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Thanks J-tree for expecting me to act like an ass and then calling me stupid, that explains much. I'm sure you also see wooden wedeges on the wall, maybe the same wooden wedges that Royal Robbins used during his trip to Catalonia in May 1966 (in Pedraforca massif together with his Catalan close friend Josep Manel Anglada).
But the thing is that www.conclusivesystems.com/danger doesn't work at all, at least in Barcelona. And as I usually quote the sources, you can see that Jensen admitted having "some problems" with the webpage in the past: threat 758 and 762 here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1827613&tn=740
Server problems or spiritual odyssey to erase evidences? Who knows...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Nov 21, 2014 - 07:12am PT
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Welcome to Look Out! Danger! This shows the first anchor off the ground, supposedly ALL hooks! The next pitch was rated A6+, with a supposed potential ground-fall from more than 150 feet up!
Called “The hardest aid climb in the world” by Climb, an online climbing magazine, the real story is now known, and it’s not pretty.
On this site you can follow the progress of the second ascent (SA), which I completed in early July of 2012. I posted ongoing reports and pictures during the ascent, which you can see in the list of articles in the right sidebar (highest are newest).
Climbing Magazine, in its online version, questions the unprecedented A6+ rating (as even an A6 rating has never been confirmed for any route), but it acknowledges the probable severe nature of the route.
The Titan in the Fisher Towers of Southeastern Utah. Scene of the route, “Look Out! Danger!” This is 1200 feet of vertical mud!
Everything about the unprecedented rating was based up the team’s earlier ascent of Intifada, also in the Fisher Towers, which had been rated A6 by the solo first-ascentionist. The “Look out; Danger!” team claimed that it is harder than Intifada.
However, when Mark Smith and I did the second ascent of Intifada, we found only a fairly short section of severe climbing and down-rated the entire route from A6 to A4+, shocking the climbing community. Subsequent American teams found that section a bit harder than we did, and the route settled in at a hard but not uncommon rating of A5.
The Spanish team responsible for “Look Out; Danger!” based their rating on the obsolete Intifada rating of A6, apparently unaware of the more than 18-year-old history of that route. Not only was Intifada not what the FA team of “Look Out” thought it was, it turns out that “Look Out” isn’t even close to as hard as Intifada!
As a veteran of such difficult routes as Wings of Steel, Winds of Change, the Sea of Dreams, Intifada, and others, my report of what I found on the SA of “Look Out” (and my rating of it) is credible.
And, as you can see in the many articles on the right sidebar, I carefully documented what I found on the SA of the route. Pictures don’t lie, and, as the climbing community knows, neither do I.
In a nutshell….
The FA of “Look Out! Danger!” was an EPIC BOTCH job, and on this site I will carefully demonstrate the facts to support that claim. Not only was this route nothing close to “the hardest aid climb in the world,” it wasn’t even “hard” at all, not even close to Intifada!
And, unlike Intifada, “Look Out” doesn’t even follow a “line” at all. It was instead a completely manufactured “route,” with virtually every placement requiring drilling. The “route” as I found it was essentially an unsustainable bashie-ladder, with huge holes drilled about every 18 to 24 inches. The “hardest” natural sections were very short (30 feet or less), and I rated them A3 only because “A2+” is a ridiculous rating; these sections were not even really A3, but the placements are a bit more “technical” than I think A2 really captures. So, being generous, some short sections of the “route” are A3.
The “hook anchor” was deeply drilled, and even included huge, deep holes fore and aft into which I was able to sink baby angles. And, worse yet, the “hook anchor” isn’t even necessary. It is placed in the middle of a normal-length pitch, so I just bypassed it entirely during the SA and instead anchored in a good crack higher up. So, even the “hook anchor” (the basis of the A6+ rating) is manufactured, unnecessary, and clearly used TO prop up the huge rating.
The route turned out to be an easy bashie-ladder, done in the poorest possible “style,” and to denote the reality of the “route,” I have renamed it: Look Out! Weak Sauce!
**
Works for me....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 21, 2014 - 07:23am PT
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Damn, that's funny!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 21, 2014 - 07:27am PT
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So not in Catalonia and India...
Only restricted to the States? Interesting...
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Nov 21, 2014 - 07:29am PT
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Gumbyclimber,
That is very interesting stuff you relate, under an anonymous avatar.
Can you please identify yourself? Only with identity can you have credibility. Some here may know who you are, but most of us do not.
Thanks,
Peter Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
gumbyclimber = Singer
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 21, 2014 - 09:50am PT
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Gumby dude seems to have plenty of street cred.
Good stuff couch!
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 21, 2014 - 10:09am PT
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Rivet hanger
014 - 12:42am PT
But the thing is that www.conclusivesystems.com/danger doesn't work at all, at least in Barcelona. Delhi Dog
Nov 21, 2014 - 06:01am PT
Actually they don't work for me here in Delhi either though the Intifada link does (go figure).
In that case I obviously retract my stupid accusation Rivet, which makes me happy. I look forward to your doggedly myopic and repetitive posts in the same darkly humorous way that I love reading the confirmation bias leaden arguments of far right conservative and far left conservative political posts in the political forums over here.
You will always remain my favorite troll that doesn't seem to know they're a troll accounts on ST.
- -
That being said, I wonder if the issue with access overseas is based upon that one page or the entire collection of blog posts Jensen made about Pelut's route? The link we can see over here also gives the archived links to previous blog posts, I'll link them here in case those are visible to you so you can see if the issue is indeed "Server problems or spiritual odyssey to erase evidences." (though i believe that this issue arose in previous threads and Clint Cummins gave direct links that accordingly the Delhi Dog, still are unavailable outside of the states. If that's the case, I'll be happy to archive the webpages and send them to you via the user email on this site.)
Fundraising Complete, Climbing in Early May!
Final Prep!
Packing food and making aluma-heads
May 14: Moving loads/Sorting
May 16: Which way?
May 17: Much is revealed….
May 18: Holes and Rivets
May 20: Second Pitch is Up
May 21: Pitch 1 Cleaned… many shots, w/ hook anchor!
May 23: Random Thoughts
Video Checking Out the Hook Anchor
Direct Link to Video
May 29: Pitch 3 is up…
June 4: With family this week
https://June 8: Topo From the FA Team
June 12: Of Pineapples
June 13: Gag… the Heat!
June 19: Update and Lots of Pics
June 23: Higher Camp… More Pics
June 27: Almost Up
July 1: Top Tomorrow!
July 2: I’m Up!
July 3: I’m Down!
July 4: It’s Over!
Topos of the Route
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Rivet hanger
Nov 21, 2014 - 12:42am PT
I'm sure you also see wooden wedeges on the wall, maybe the same wooden wedges that Royal Robbins used during his trip to Catalonia in May 1966 (in Pedraforca massif together with his Catalan close friend Josep Manel Anglada).
Yeah, no. Wedges of the kind Pelut used aren't a thing in Yosemite where I climb. Not saying they aren't elsewhere, just that those are not something that are used in that manner. We do use wooden blocks along with cams (and in the past, bongs) to aid through sections wider than larger cams, but I believe that's something that's been explained in previous threads.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 21, 2014 - 10:45am PT
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The reason the site isn't working from outside the US and Canada is that our conclusivesystems.com server is behind a secure firewall. We were getting so many hack attempts from India, China, and, yes, Spain, that we've placed everything in our rack behind an IP-range-blocker to completely lock out IPs not in the US and Canada. This has cut the number of hack attempts to virtually zero.
If it matters to anybody, I'll move the site elsewhere, but that will break all old links, as it will no longer be on our conclusivesystems.com domain.
Other than that, I don't plan to get dragged into this hoary, old debate. All questions thus far: asked and answered. I don't lie about climbs, which is well-established at this point.
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Rockies Obscure
Trad climber
rockiesobscure.com....Canada
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Nov 21, 2014 - 10:51am PT
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madbolter,
I live in Canada, your website works just fine clicking on the above links, just so you know it works fine up here.
Also I have a copy of your Wings book, good read.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 22, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
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Thank you, Rockies. I'm glad you enjoyed the book.
Yeah, anybody in the USA or Canada should have no trouble getting to the site. If I knew a (small) IP range for Rivet, I'd even be happy to open that up for him/her, whatever.
The IP blocking is the cat's meow, however. We went from hundreds and hundreds of hack attempts per month to maybe one or two, often none, per month. So, we'll keep that in place. LOL
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Nov 22, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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Hey Mad...yep no linkage here with any of those so your secure firewall seems to be doing what it should. I don't doubt you for whatever that's worth anyway, I just find this conversation pretty interesting.
But hey I can wait 'til I get back so don't change anything if you don't need to:-)
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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I took this photo earlier today for other reasons but want to post it here just to celebrate the real deal......climbing in the best form possible. God, after reading that Fisher Tower thread I need to vomit.
PS MadBolter1; is there a link or photos for your WOS climb? Would love to see some. Just read the book. I have plenty of images I've made up in my head from the book but wouldn't mind the actual perspective. Inspiring. Cheers!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 22, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
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'Trolling' anti Semitism in a route name is still anti semitic.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 23, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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Munge, are you trying to veer this thread into an abstract argument about the place and viability of humor and satire?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 23, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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nope, but nice try on your part just there. ;)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 23, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
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Hey, QITNL, I really appreciate the offer. I'll look into options we have for getting the site out of our rack and out from behind that ultra-paranoid firewall. I hate to put anybody out, and we do have options. But thank you very much for your kindness.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Dec 29, 2014 - 07:35am PT
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J-tree: Wood wedges have been widely used in Europe since the very beginning of climbing. And we still do use it. The same with lead heads. Ask Kristoffer Wickstrom next time you find him in Yosemite. The most surprising thing is that these are completely unkmnown techniques in the States. As I say, Royal Robbins used wedeges to protect off-widhts in 1966 in Pedraforca.
Richy: I'm sorry for the massive attacks against conclusivesystems.com server. Public appearence often holds these things.
But to be honest there's a thing that I do not catch. Why don't you migrate conclusivesystems.com to jensenconsultations.com? You placed there your most outstanding climbings, so, you mean placing a rivet ladder in the Towers and belay chains is not outstanding?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 29, 2014 - 07:44am PT
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Dec 29, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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That is a flat leeper placement up thread.
Just sayin.
I want to hear about his Quarterdome A4 FA he did this year.
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bbbeans
Trad climber
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so my buddy and I are walking along the base of the captain this fall, and about 50' up a guy was leading out on a string of taped on hooks. It was kind of a wierd setup cuz his belay was about 30' up the native son crack.
I was just commenting on the oddness when he slowly looks at me and says
"PSYCHO"
I think that he was telling us that he was psycho.
I knew that he was Jim Beyer....whoa!
Love that. Long Live Jim Beyer!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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so my buddy and I are walking along
when was this? I recall something similar in 2004 or so?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I don't understand the taped hooks...
Tape is just fine w/o the hook...
Duct Tape FTW..TTS..WTF
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oh the pity and for pity's sake think of the children and one big mistake. . .
His tactics and his taciturn wit that takes his antics to a level that if embraced by others with less skill, will kill some one
In fact he has said he hopes that his fame will grow when people die trying his routes. .
It would be fun to set nanook off on some of big schlicks routes!
Calling - 'safe for 'Bambi' (sic) Sloan,.....!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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I am trying to understand your post
Nov 4, 2015 - 12:48am PT
I don't understand the taped hooks...Tape is just fine w/o the hook...Duct Tape FTW..TTS..WTF
FTW? TTS? The last one I think I get. . . .
Duct tape will save the world = DTWSTW or DTWSW,
I've climbed using tapped hooks for pro. . Ymmv
When aiding hard . . . In windy conditions . . . Or on a bogus line of self vandalized holes
A Beyer route tape is just one of the regular tricks also a three foot stick and the Bosch n' boltsz
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DesertFox
climber
Vegas
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Jan 25, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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He sounds like a really pleasant fellow...
"After summiting Cult of Suicidal,I noticed a park ranger on the road .Upon descent the ranger notified me that bikers on the white rim had snitched on me (hammering is against the stupid rules) in Canyonlands NP.He wrote me a ticket for 50$ and left. Later, driving out,fast and reckless,I approached a group of bikers.I passed some riders then four wheel drifted round a corner spotting an exhausted woman pushing her bike in the sandy doubletrack ahead. She stepped up out of the doubletrack "ditch" and I didn't slow down.I expected her to pull her bike up out of the ditch in the nick of time. She didn't and I drove right over her bike.She started screaming immediately but I didn't stop because I was laughing too hard."
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Dickly
Social climber
KY
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Jan 25, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
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Its easy to see why he spends most of his time on Earth alone. Still, he's not too bad of a guy to hang out with around a campfire and way better around the fire than some know-it-all, beta spraying, name dropping turd chomper.
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 25, 2016 - 03:17pm PT
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The most surprising thing is that these are completely unkmnown techniques in the States. As I say, Royal Robbins used wedeges to protect off-widhts in 1966 in Pedraforca.
Which is it, unknown in this country or RR used it?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 11, 2016 - 06:31am PT
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Both. Royal Robbins learned it in Catalonia when he went there invited by his friend Josep Manuel Anglada. Indeed, the original wood wedges to protect the off-width places in 1966 are still in place...
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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This has been a great thread to read. Just saying
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Jan 10, 2019 - 05:12pm PT
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Ready to Go, beyer's new el cap solo from may 2018 is not A6 as advertised on mountain project. While fixed on el cap this last fall, i was able to rap over and inspect the first 2 pitches. the first two pitches, which both are rated A6, have about 12 holes on each of them, either with a zmac rivet(also known as a nail drive) in it or left as a bathook hole. there are a few hard placements per pitch, and i would estimate the both of them to hail in a lot closer to A2+ or A3. Seriously. i mean, if gerberding heard that a pitch with 12 holes was rated A6, he would just shake his head, no way. the def of A5 has come to mean a 200' pitch with only body weight pro and NO drilled holes.
i'm not including the 18 foot cheater stick hook move to start the climb. like the ice axe move on marty's brigade, it is too obscure to rate.
i saw none of the so called booby traps that gumby climber claims he puts in
not making judgements, just reporting facts
steve schneider
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2019 - 06:45pm PT
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^^^ Thanks, Steve.
IMO, A6 does not exist. Certainly Beyer has never done one, as has been repeatedly discovered, despite his relentless efforts to "establish" the grade. And, not satisfied with that ridiculous rating, he continues to put up (solo, of course) supposed "A6+".
What would A6 even BE? Even in theory?
* You rip the entire pitch, take out the anchor, and you and your belayer plummet to terra most firma. -- Uh, no, actually that's already consistent with A5, and WHY use death anchors in the first place? The minute you're drilling ANYTHING in the pitch, not having a decent bolt anchor makes NO sense! But, okay, call it A5+.
A6 = Everything from the above point, but the junk show hits the ground with enough impact force to spray ejecta into a 20-foot radius, killing bystanders within a 10-foot radius.
A6+ = Everything from the above point, but the impact ejecta kills bystanders within a 50-foot radius.
A6+X = Everything from the above point, but the impact has EMP effects for a one-mile radius and destabilizes a previously unknown fault line, causing a massive earthquake.
A7 = Everything from the above point, but the earthquake produces a tsunami that sweeps away a small, island nation.
I mean, come on. Just do any real "A5" pitch unroped and with no back-clipping. If the placement you're on fails, you die. There's nothing more "heroic" than that, and even that doesn't rise to the "A6" standard.
Perhaps you need to strap on rocket packs pointing downward, and these are auto-ignited by a switch triggered by the sudden force of acceleration by gravity. As soon as they kick in, they DRIVE you downward INTO the ground, and then the way-awesome aid-rating can contemplate how deep of a crater you create.
A6 does not exist. IMO.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jan 10, 2019 - 08:28pm PT
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Has anyone seen Beyer in the last decade. Maybe he is so rotund that a 1 or 1.5 is added to the normal accepted and applicable rating.
Leading a pitch before lunch a 1 gets added, after lunch a 1.5.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Jan 12, 2019 - 01:31pm PT
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beyer WAS seen at the base of ready to go...although when he was asked what his name was, he responded with "Im the solo guy".
He also chopped a bolt of mine on a route i had started nearby...of course i am not too happy about that.
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hhhhhhhhh
climber
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Jan 14, 2019 - 12:17pm PT
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I find it interesting that a person that is know for supposedly putting up A6 death routes, his FA's on Glacier Point Apron are reasonably protected.
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