No, we are not a "Christian" nation......


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Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
WyoRockMan for the win!

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:25pm PT

Willful ignorance remains willful.

Haven't you heard, yours don't believe in will. Yours is a world of determination. Thus it is only "i" who can call Yours Willful Ignorance

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
Haven't you heard, yours don't believe in will. Yours is a world of determination. Thus it is only "i" who can call Yours Willful Ignorance

Firstly: you have no idea what my philosophy of mind is.
Secondly: determination is a mental attitude and is a result of Free Will. Your claims are mutually exclusive.
Ergo your conclusion is nonsense.

Or perhaps you meant "determinism"?
There are two realms of determinism. There are the laws of physics, chemistry, gravity, etc.
They are indeed deterministic until you get to the atomic level. Think Schroedinger's Cat.
Some Christians, Jews and Muslims are determined to believe in determinism rooted in God. If he is omniscient and omnipotent he determines everything. Testable and provable physical laws be dam@ed.

Some people believe in deterministic action of animals with "brains". That IS denial of free will and it ain't me. My dog most definitely exhibits free will.

So at least be clear in what you really mean before you try to categorize me.

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:43pm PT

don't confuse them with facts. After all, they don't believe in evolution or climate change.

Sounds like ur categorizing christians with this belief?

i'm only ask'in you do the same

Cling to what is good!
Jul 20, 2014 - 07:46am PT
Eight Ball in the Corner(stone) pocket for the win!

For God and Country...

DESTINATION, David Jeremiah
DESTINATION, David Jeremiah

...United We Stand!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 07:50am PT
the next morning he was dead....

jesus h christ...what does the 'H' stand for?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:11am PT


Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:26am PT
That's quite the story Go-B. Whatever does it mean?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
a relevant historical FYI compiled by Fritz on the Commie thread.

When we get back to the subject of what religion killed the most people-----Google can supply the details that our Christian God was the rally cry for more deaths than any other religion.

Both sides in WW I & WW II knew God was on their side.

Since we are on the subject of the "Crusades"

The 4th Crusade against the Islamic Empire, stopped along the way to take out the Eastern Orthodox Christian Capital Constantinople.

The Sack of Constantinople or Siege of Constantinople (also called the Fourth Crusade) occurred in 1204; it destroyed parts of the capital of the Byzantine Empire as the city was captured by Western European and Venetian Crusaders. After the capture the Latin Empire was founded and Baldwin of Flanders was crowned Emperor Baldwin I of Constantinople in the Hagia Sophia.;;

So???? How many people have been killed by the Christian Faith?

Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

Ancient Pagans


•As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

•Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

•Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.

•Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]

•Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

•Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."

•In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

•In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

•The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.



•Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

•Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

•15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]

•16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)


•First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]

•Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]

•9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]

•Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]

•After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]

•Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

•Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."

•The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]

•Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41]

•Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]

•Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]

•Crusades (1095-1291)

•Estimated totals:

•Wertham: 1,000,000

•Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the
Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. []

•Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000

•Individual Events:

•Davies: Crusaders killed up to 8,000 Jews in Rhineland

•Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 1,000 Jewish women in
Rhineland comm. suicide to avoid the mob, 1096.

•Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, v.5, 6

•1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea].

•Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems

•1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred.

•50,000 Pilgrims died of disease.

•1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.

• Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k.

• Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks

• Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.

• 1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre.

• Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred.

•[TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.]

•Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) []

•Jaffa: 20,000 Christians massacred, 1197

•Sorokin estimates that French, English & Imperial German Crusaders lost
a total of 3,600 in battle.

•1st C (1096-99): 400

•2nd C (1147-49): 750

•3rd C (1189-91): 930

•4th C (1202-04): 120

•5th C (1228-29): 600

•7th C (1248-54): 700

•James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992)

•1099: Crusaders slaughter 40,000 inhabs of Jerusalem. Dis/starv reduced
Crusaders from 300,000 to 60,000.

•1147: 2nd Crusades begins with 500,000. "Most" lost to

•1190: 500 Jews massacred in York.

•1192: 3rd Crusade reduced from 100,000 to 5,000 through famine, plagues and
desertions in campaign vs Antioch.

•1212: Children's Crusade loses some 50,000.

•[TOTAL: Just in these incidents, it appears the Europeans lost around

•TOTAL: When I take all the individual death tolls listed here, weed out
the duplicates, fill in the blanks, apply Occam ("Pluralitas non est
ponenda sine necessitate"), etc. I get a very rough total of 1½ M
deaths in the Crusades.

Heretics and Atheists


•Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]

•Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]

•Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic
neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
•Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]

•Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]

•After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324.

•Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]

•Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).

•Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]

•John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]

•Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]

•University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]

•Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

•Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy.



•From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.

•In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.

•Incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars


•15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]

•1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]

•1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]
Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch hats floated by." [SH216]

•1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]

•17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]

•17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]

•17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]



•Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians.Number of Jews slain unknown.

•In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]

• 694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

•1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

•1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

•1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

•1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]

•1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

•1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

•1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

•1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

•1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

•1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

•1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

•1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.

•1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.

•1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

Native Peoples


•Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.

•Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]

•On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

•Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]

•In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]

•On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]

•The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
•As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]

•The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]

•What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]

•The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]

•"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]

•Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).

•"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."

Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of America.

•Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]

•In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no
choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]

•On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War." The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.

•When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]

•So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].

•Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)

•Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]

•Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by Spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]

•The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]

•Other tribes were to follow the same path.

•Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]

•Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]

•In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]

•In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]

•To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about
30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.

•All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.

•A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.

•In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

More Glorious Events in U.S. History

•Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]

•Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]

•By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'."

20th Century Church Atrocities


•Catholic extermination camps
Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar -
orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did
nothing to prevent them. [MV]

•Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters; the Viet Minh; - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of Buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - ; mostly in street riots ; - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.

lost, far away from Poland
Jul 20, 2014 - 11:16pm PT
^^^^ Too horryfing to read it all.


Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 05:08am PT
I agree, but I also think it should be mandatory. We are so ignorant of the dark side of history.

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 08:55am PT
"Get the details right." Agreed Sketch, but you have to agree that anyone who is religious always has God on their side.

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
Alas! and did my Savior bleed,

Not a big deal when you're Jesus.

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
I know, right? Bestest imaginary friend EVER!!!!!

Cling to what is good!
Jul 24, 2014 - 03:19am PT
DESTINATION, David Jeremiah
DESTINATION, David Jeremiah

The hardest thing that Jesus had to endure was not that Judas betrayed Him, that Peter denied Him, or being nailed to the cross, but that the Father had forsaken Him! And that He did for you and me so that the Father would not forsake us, THANK YOU JESUS!!!

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 24, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
the Father had forsaken Him! And that He did for you and me so that the Father would not forsake us

Worst. Dad/creator. Ever.

lost, far away from Poland
Jul 25, 2014 - 11:41am PT
Interesting, but not really surprising:

Children Exposed To Religion Have Difficulty Distinguishing Fact From Fiction, Study Finds

Young children who are exposed to religion have a hard time differentiating between fact and fiction, according to a new study published in the July issue of Cognitive Science.


Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 25, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
yea, religion has its place.
those chicks are the best.
the one's strung out on hollow beliefs.

they got pent up sexual frustrations
and misplaced guilt.
these act like a synthetic hymen,
and when you finally breach
that shite they become fornication

yea. religion has its place.

Mountain climber
Jul 25, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
I will have to disagree with Donini ... and I like the guy. Great climber. Inspirational even.

Christopher Columbus, love him or hate him, he did move the Americas into a new direction. It would never be the same ever again. It was 1492 ... he had to leave Spain but fast. He couldn't risk being discovered.

He was a Messianic Jew. He was a Crypto-Jew who believed in The Messiah, Yeshua HaMashiach, aka Jesus the Messiah. He had to hide his Jewish ancestry and his Judaism, since at that time while he was leaving Spain, a certain evil Spanish Catholic Queen was putting Jews to death if they did not convert, and stop their practice of Judaism. Apparently she didn't get the memo. Yeshua HaMashiach was a devout Orthodox Jew, who practiced Judaism, and he had come not to abolish the Law, The Torah, but to fulfill it. And he taught others to do so in like manner. He did not come to start a new religion. Simply Judaism, but now with Messiah. Messiah had come.

So yes, you can say we started with Messianic Judaism in a sense.


Short answer Yes. The evidence says so.

Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Our laws are modeled after and written from the Ten Commandments.

The Judeo-Christian Values of America
By Ronald R. Cherry

We certainly started this way, it was founded this way, as a "Christian" nation. What we are today is another matter.

We need to get back to G-d, back to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Back to HaShem Adonai Elohim. Then you will see the nation healed, and then it will prosper. I pray for that.


Jul 25, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
"Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Our laws are modeled after and written from the Ten Commandments."

This worn out little meme is still looking for its supporting evidence. Funny, it's never represented. Oh wait - the Declaration (not our founding charter), In God We Trust and the Pledge of Allegiance (added in the 1940s and 50s). OK!

A mountain of evidence has already been presented here to illustrate the true origins of human rights - both embodied in the Constitution and prior to America's founding.

Hint: It's not Christianity. At all.

Quite the opposite. Christianity borrowed pre-existing ideas - it brought nothing new under the sun at all - although the movement did popularize some. I won't waste the space to repeat any of it.

Aaaand Christianity also borrowed many other well worn ideas - bigotry, Us v Them exclusivity, Absolute Truth (as represented by arguably the most cartoonish, nonsensical theology of all time)the tried and true ideas of bigotry - we're saved, you're not, women as chattel, gays are destroying the world, etc.

Death sucks. Please provide a cartoon we can watch that tells us it isn't so.
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