No, we are not a "Christian" nation......

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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
And that is relevant to this discussion... how, go-B?
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Jun 25, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
madbolter
good for you to not fall for the right wing Christian doctrine

But it makes me wonder, since you say we are on the opposite side of the spectrum

Do you support the Right Wing Political agenda?
Would you vote for someone like Romney or McCain instead of a Democratic Candidate?

How about Rand Paul?


Thanks for the response madbolter
I appreciate your honesty

I have too many problems with the Libertarian policies to mention
and is not appropriate for this thread
so carry on
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 25, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Clearly we're just not dealing with the snappiest biners on the rack here.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
But it makes me wonder, since you say we are on the opposite side of the spectrum

Do you support the Right Wing Political agenda?
Would you vote for someone like Romney or McCain instead of a Democratic Candidate?

How about Rand Paul?

I don't remember saying that we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. I believe that I've said that you argue from the left but that I'm not on the "right/left" spectrum at all.

I'm a philosophical libertarian, which does not even map neatly onto political libertarianism. So, no, I am not a fan of the right wing agenda or of the Rebumblecons at all.

That said, I usually find myself in a very tough spot on election day, as there are no electable candidates that represent my perspective. Romney and McCain both have severe problems. So does Obama and Hillary. Rand Paul is no chip off of his daddy's block; he is a pretty straightforward Rebumblecon.

Ron Paul was closest to my perspectives of any recent candidate, but he was not electable.

As just one example of how neither party serves the deepest interests of Americans....

9/11 -- Bush USES this as a pretext to initiate imperial presidency like no president before him. In the interests of "security," we get such double-speak as the "Patriot Act" and a mandate to the NSA to do "whatever it takes" to "keep us safe."

Obama is elected on a platform of "change" and "transparency," and we have gotten neither. Virtually every promise to undo Bush's legacy of double-speak (including what we now know included the most sweeping invasions of American privacy ever) have gone unfulfilled. And you can't blame the Rebumblecons for that, as for the first couple of years, the Demoncrats owned Washington.

Americans care FAR more for "security" and "comfort" than for freedom and individual rights. Individual responsibility is right out the window. And accountability among politicians of any party is non-existent.

Every man, woman, and child in this country is over $100,000 in debt (and climbing), and that is real debt. We've crossed a line such that we can't print our way out of this one. And the dollar is on the brink of losing its status as the world's reserve currency.

Fiscal responsibility is non-existent in both parties. Even Rand Paul's "conservative" budget is a farce.

So, I don't know if we're on "opposite sides," but I'm confident from past discussions with you that we don't see eye-to-eye.

It's ironic that I, a Christian, find myself on the "same side" as you regarding the right-wing-religious efforts to "legislate morality." But, again, very few Christians are on "my side," as I cannot align with their senseless dogmatism, social gospel, and "relevancy efforts" that amount to nothing more than being really loud and rude about making this nation moral.

Sarah Palin? THIS is the best the right can come up with??? Don't get me started!
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Jun 25, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
Yeah, that's about right. lol
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 25, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
Credit: pyro
this is what happens when you graduate from a christian collage!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 25, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
Credit: pyro
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
MB queeried,

The problem you have with this fence-sitting view of yours regarding government is that you are unable to offer a principled distinction between slavery being "wrong" (despite its being legal and supported by God, His people, and the apostles) and abortion being "wrong" (despite its being legal and nowhere mentioned nor condemned in the Bible).

i sometimes forget everyone hasn't read all my thousand's of posts.
i don't think i'm a fencesitter. i hate slavery from a humanity stance. i think it's wrong in every aspect! i was merely commiting towards 7pools assumtion. Havn't you heard me toughting the Christians for starting the end of slavery in this country?

And i think abortion is wrong from a personal view point, but i wouldn't vote to make it illeagal while living in this country.

But i don't think saying these types of acts are "supported by God"is the correct phrase. i think acts like slavery and abortion are shoved in His face by man. Then He puts it back in our face to watch how we react.

My view on government is much like urs and DrF's.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
first and only post on this stupid-as-fukk thread

just wanted to see what the deal was, to see if it was anything other than a colossal waste of time

Confirmed. Adios, retards
scrubbing bubbles

Social climber
Uranus
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
haha! ^^^ it was The Devil that made you click on this thread !!!!!!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
HaHa HaHa!^^^^ NO, it was God.


the post was by the Devil...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
And i think abortion is wrong from a personal view point, but i wouldn't vote to make it illeagal while living in this country.

Great! Then you are no religious-right-wing zealot... at least on that topic.

But i don't think saying these types of acts are "supported by God"is the correct phrase. i think acts like slavery and abortion are shoved in His face by man. Then He puts it back in our face to watch how we react.

That doesn't work.

1) God has no need to "watch how we react." Instead, on the Biblical model, WE need to see God's perspective of morality.

2) Per (1) just above, the Bible is purported to provide the foundational moral principles, and God frequently clarifies the implications of important ones to be sure we don't misunderstand.

3) Per (2) just above, somehow God finds moral-minutia like female periods being "unclean," circumcision "counting" and then no longer "counting," the eating of strangled meats being bad, oh so bad, and a host of other nit-picky details critical that we understand in great detail; as apparently we just won't GET those implications of morality.

But somehow, in light of the foregoing points, He has no space, time, energy, or revelation to expend on clarifying things like how wrong slavery is or the moral status of the fetus?

Given the Biblical notion that God is the supreme moral authority, His utter lack of condemnation of slavery, and His issuance of many laws and rules regarding HOW to carry forward the institution, it strikes me as a distinction without a difference to claim that He does not support the institution of slavery when He has been AT LEAST complicit in its institution for many thousands of years!

My view on government is much like urs and DrF's.

I'm really unclear how that could be accurate, because, as was stated in a small sidebar discussion between me and Dr. F, our views on government are very little alike. So, there's no way that you share "our" view, because there is no "our" view on government.

I have no idea yet what your view actually is, but you sure seem to have been arguing pretty anti-abortion on a "Christian nation (not)" thread.

We'll be forgiven for not clearly seeing that all this argumentation of yours really isn't even suggesting that the government have anything to do with making it illegal.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 27, 2014 - 04:06am PT
Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. (He alone is God!)

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. (He alone is Creator God!)

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (He is a Holy God!)

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (we are to remember, honor, and give thanks to Him!)



Luke 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (we are to remember our Savior Jesus Christ!)



Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.



Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


Matthew 11:30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”


...God is gOOd! :)
glanton

Sport climber
lithopeadion circus
Jun 27, 2014 - 04:33am PT
Credit: glanton
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 05:44am PT
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (we are to remember, honor, and give thanks to Him!)

Actually, go-B, it's pretty ironic that you would be quoting this commandment. Do you keep Saturday (the whole day) holy, or Sunday (some "part" of the day)?

There's a LOT more to the fourth commandment than your trite "we are to remember, honor, and give thanks to Him!"

The commandment is very, very specific; the change from Saturday to Sunday observance was a late-second-century invention that was quickly adopted by the budding Catholic church.

So, what day is it that you keep holy (the whole day)?

... just pointing out a pretty significant inconsistency among those Christians that get all in a froth about the other commandments, enjoining them on the whole nation, but utterly fail in this one. LOL
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 27, 2014 - 07:21am PT
Matthew 12
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”

3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Healing on the Sabbath
9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—that they might accuse Him.

11 Then He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.



...Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament, He was the one true sacrifice given by God for the sins of the world! The Sabbath was changed to Sunday to honor Christ's resurrection day!



Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 08:43am PT
...Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament, He was the one true sacrifice given by God for the sins of the world! The Sabbath was changed to Sunday to honor Christ's resurrection day!

Typical fluff and nonsense response. The history of the change is well-documented, and the arguments you cite emerged in the sixth and eighth centuries, well after the change was made.

Interesting how only the fourth commandment supposedly got changed by Christ, while all the others were left alone.

I don't want to side-track this whole thread onto this topic, because it would be a huge debate. But you don't know your history, and the Scriptures you cite do not mean what you take them to mean. I'll leave it at this and simply note that even on something as "clear" as one of the COMMANDMENTS, Christendom can't be consistent.

And we're supposed to look to Christendom to tell us as a NATION about "moral" legislation based upon Christendom's interpretation of morality???

Sorry, but no-can-do! This is why our founders instituted a clear, bright line between church and state, and it is why (as a Christian) I will vigorously decry Christians attempting to legislate a heavily-interpreted, inconsistent, Bible-based "morality."
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Jun 27, 2014 - 08:52am PT
Have you considered the next logical step madbolter?

Becoming an atheist

I used to be a believer, but put my beliefs under a critical eye.

And when I became aware of all the imagined and false beliefs I fell back on to support my beliefs, I said that was enough.

Once you free yourself of religious beliefs, you become free to have critical thinking on every aspect of your life, and reality
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 27, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Dr. F. is right about becoming an atheist, if we are not saved by the reconciliation offered to us by Christ's atonement on the cross!
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