No, we are not a "Christian" nation......

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donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Original Post - May 6, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
We are much more. We are a mosaic of different creeds, colors and cultures. We are a nation where the children of parents who couldn't speak english win the National Spelling Bee. We are a land where, more than nearly everywhere else, opportunity is a function of striving more than it is of birth. Everyone here, with the exception of Native Americans, is an immigrant or a descendent of immigrants.
Anyone who believes we are a nation based on one color, creed or culture is on the wrong side of history.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 6, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
Thank you Capt. D.



Wait a minute, you are the big J for many here...

Sure you're not setting up a competing business, err religion?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 6, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
lol!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Five weeks of total climbing immersion Tami, and the fact that I have seen that sentiment (Christian Nation) expressed several times lately.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 6, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
Can we at least blame them for the genocide of the Native inhabitants?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 6, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
The colors of my country are many!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2051543&msg=2065255#msg2065255



Rudbud

Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
May 6, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
Donini, are you trying to brain wash me? My parents told me different.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 6, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
I think we should now pause for a Christian prayer.

And, according to this week's US Supreme Court decision, any of you who don't like it "can just leave the room."
dirtbag

climber
May 6, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Donini for SCOTUS.
John M

climber
May 6, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
Donini for SCOTUS.

you want Donini for your ball sack? ??
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 6, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
I pledge Allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 6, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
Nut again, under God wasn't added to the pledge until 1954. We can't claim that came from the founders.

The money (Moloch) also says under god, not christ, for what it's worth.

Not Christian American








Not Christian American on the right










Christian from the right





JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 6, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
Until someone provides me with an authoritative definition of "Christian Nation," I find the statement meaningless. I have, however, heard many Christians speak as if the U.S. is the Kingdom of the Second Coming -- something I regard as blasphemy.

If, however, someone claims that we can understand American history without the background of the Bible and Christianity, I would differ -- and rather strongly. If nothing else, some of America's most famous orations, including but not limited to Patrick Henry's "Give me liberty or give me death" speech, Lincoln's "House divided" speech, or Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech, assumed a Biblical knowledge that would color listeners' responses.

Then again, I wonder if current students of American History know of the existence of any of those speeches. Given some of the bizarre opinions I've heard, I would have rational cause to think that a significant number of my countrymen think World War II was when President Wilson freed the slaves.

John
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 6, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
The earth belongs to no humans. We just rent little spots of it for as long as we can muster the physical force to defend it, or pay protection money (e.g. property taxes in U.S.) to someone else who will muster the physical force for us. This is the natural law.


I'm working on my Werner-like aphorisms... not quite pithy enough yet, but with practice I can get there.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 6, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
The Moral Majority is neither
Just as they intended American politics hasn't been the same since the self anointed High Moralists threw their money and mouths into politics. (which they had the right to do)

For truly Moral Christian leaders I refer you to Jimmy Carter and Bill Moyers among many many others. The new Pope is even looking pretty good.
Jerry Falwell can go to his Hell....which he very well might have done.
Sanskara

climber
May 6, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
Idk know what to say other than I second your senatments...

And I wanna move to patagonia and live off the grid for the rest of my days.

Forget about all this political and money and media driven bullsh#t.

I know I know ignorance is not bliss it is ignorance but but but...

And living in the wild is work I know but but but but...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 6, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
Here's some more 'persecution' for the Chief Justice of Supertopo ...from "The US is a Christian Nation, Dammit." thread, courtesy of Port.

Port

Trad climber
San Diego

Mar 12, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
It's odd to me that so many people seem to think that our country was founded on, and needs to return to, christian values. Here are a few of my favorite quotes from our founding fathers.


"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
-Thomas Paine (Glenn Beck's homeboy)

"lighthouses are more helpful than Churches"
-Benjamin Franklin

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
-John Adams

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-James Madison

"I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
-George Washington
dirtbag

climber
May 6, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
you want Donini for your ball sack? ??

Sure, why not? They'd get bigger as a result.
John M

climber
May 6, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
tami needs wood
tami needs wood
tami needs wood


hahahaha…

okay okay.. I'm in 5th grader mode today.. stupid joke…
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
Just see Americans dazed and confused here.

The American religion is "MONEY".

Gimi gmi gmi some money.

Americans prostitute themselves to the holy dollar ......
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 6, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
I would definitely use protection if I was to prostitute myself to a dollar.

Probably would if I were prostituting myself for a dollar, too.
Gobi

Trad climber
Orange CA
May 6, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
What was the Super Topo forum originally about? Hiking or something?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 6, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
No, of course we're not. But this is still a troll.

Missed you at IC Sushifest Jim, you troublemaker.....
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
It's about Science Religion, Politics, and beer vs.Republicans.

Everything else is stupid ...... :-)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 6, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
Lincoln's "House Divided" speech is a very good example of keeping religion out of politics.
Indeed "A house divided against itself cannot stand," comes from some verses in the Bible.
This is the only Biblical reference in the entire speech and it was used as a prevalent part of the language.
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/house.htm
Nowhere does he appeal to god or the Bible or anything directly religious in that speech. In fact as far as I can see he makes no other religious references. It's mostly boring legal arguments. Even I had a hard time getting through it.

Lincoln on religion
That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrepect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular.
1846
Certainly there is no contending against the Will of God; but still there is some difficulty in ascertaining, and applying it, to particular cases.
1858
The Bible says somewhere that we are desperately selfish. I think we would have discovered that fact without the Bible.
1858
The good old maxims of the Bible are applicable, and truly applicable to human affairs.....
1859
and a warning about religion
The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be wrong. God can not be for and against the same thing at the same time.
1862 (Civil War)
God bless the Methodist Church -- bless all the churches -- and blessed be God, Who, in this our great trial, giveth us the churches.
1864

yes, the US was close to being a homogeneous "Christian country" in Lincoln's time. Yet fiercely divided over slavery.
A lot of good Christianity was doing in politics at that time except being claimed by each side as a high ground. It was certainly giving private comfort to many in their fear and grief.
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
May 6, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
Everyone here, with the exception of Native Americans, is an immigrant or a descendent of immigrants.

I thought they were immigrants too, no?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 6, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
The American religion is "MONEY".
Sad but true. I keep thinking that the left should come up with some pithy phrase to describe how the Bible-thumping right really worships Mammon, not the God they wrap themselves in for political gain. The right labels the left "secular humanists". They should be "fiscal fundamentalists" or "fiscal Pharisees", etc. Someone needs to get on that.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 6, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
"Fiscal Pharisees" sounds good to me, Fat Dad, except that the so-called "Christian Right" isn't particularly understanding or conservative on fiscal matters. I've always wondered if the "Christian Right" acted as the second coming of the Pharisees in the hope of speeding up the Second Coming of Christ to condemn them.

John
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
"God can not be for and against the same thing at the same time."

But it is.

Simultaneous oneness and difference.

Study it very intensely and you'll see it even in material nature ......
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
Thanks Jim, for your statement. It made me think.

Generalizations have always irritated me a bit. Like labeling people so you can figure out what box to put them in and they won't be a bother to your life. As hard as I try, I have to be careful of this.

I think about my best friend, jesus. He didn't try to be a political leader or espouse political ideology. He came to help people. He lived what he believed, one on one. As far as I know he didn't form one group or club or even start a church or synagogue. He had 12 close friends that he hung out with, but that was about it. All the crowds that followed him around and he managed to avoid organizing them or collecting money from them. Amazing to me.

Hope all is well with the tres amigos(as)especially Lela.

Cheers, Lynne

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 6, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
15 of the delegates to the constitutional convention owned slaves ( nothing Christian about that) , 13 were Freemasons. At least 5 were avowed Deists, including Jefferson and Washington. Adams died Unitarian.

Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
May 6, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
I think before WWII everyone was loyal to their particular ethnic or racial group. During WWII, but especially around the time of the Normandy invasion in June 1944, the whole country came together as a single nation. That unity continued to a large degree after the War because of various government programs like the GI Bill, FHA home loans, and no interest student and small business loans and, of course, fighting the Russians during the Cold War. Now however as the middle classes decline, that old national unity is dissolving and the various groups are again returning to their old ethnic and racial loyalties. As long as those ethnic and racial divisions don't impact the income level in the gated communities, I don't think the 1% really care that much about this sort of fragmentation. No matter what religion, race or ethnic group they come from, they all have to buy products and services, though certainly not with the same spirit of co-operation that held them together during WWII and the Cold War. The whole country is becoming a set of loosely federated economic zones without any clear sense of unified purpose or identity. So much for the half-breed nation.
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
May 6, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
WWJD?

Hey tami, I think its WWJDD..



edit: he would send.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 6, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
The Moral Majority is neither

So true.

It is also true that they don't represent what Christianity is really about.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
May 6, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
the second coming of the Pharisees
They have never left. Organized religion, or church, is the modern word, same meaning.
GuapoVino

climber
May 6, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
I've read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and every other founding document I am aware of and I just can't find any mention of Jesus or Christianity. I found "creator" a few times but that is kind of vague. Thomas Jefferson used the word "God" once in one of these documents but I take that to be in a very poetic sense considering his views and his modification of the bible into the Jefferson Bible. It's just not there.

One document that does address whether or not this country is a Christian nation is the Treaty of Tripoli. I'm no historian but I believe the document was initially drafted under Washington and then signed under Adams. It states in no uncertain terms that this country was in no sense founded as a Christian nation.

People will sometimes point to the motto "In God We Trust" on our currency. When was it added to our paper currency? 1957 or 1958? My prediction is that some day many years in the future it will be removed and then every earthquake, tornado, hurricane, recession, school shooting and anything else will be blamed on it as proof of some wrath.

People are free to think and worship as they choose without any fear of persecution from the government. I don't understand why that isn't good enough for some people.
slabbo

Trad climber
colo south
May 6, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
F religion in any form
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 6, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
F religion in any form
Mature.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 6, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
Nice, Kos


from yer friendly neighborhood atheist, Dan Barker [Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
Just see above video the atheist holding his atheist bible book.

The stupid slabbo says F all religion.

All while the atheist is preaching his "There is no God" religion holding his atheist bible.

Stupid hypocrites ......
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
May 6, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
Religion [X]
Race talk [X]
Climbing [ ]

All we need is some SEX and BOLTS in here and it will be perfect!
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 6, 2014 - 06:57pm PT

better?

if you can listen to the man's dogma Werner, you will see that he is encouraging open-mindedness and acceptance of new data. MY DOGMA IS OPEN TO NEW IDEAS! NOW FOLLOW MY DOGMA (kidding).
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
You're on track Vitaliy!
norm larson

climber
wilson, wyoming
May 6, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
Of course you are right Jim but I think you need to go climbing again soon. It's the only thing that makes sense sometimes. See what happens when you get off the rock. All these thoughts...
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
May 6, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
Sorry, bolts are technically climbing talk.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
AOBTW, it's kinda crazy to think all of us humans are going to agree on everything anyway. Actually, that's a good thing. Much can be learned listening to others.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 6, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
Lynne, that's the problem: listening.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
May 6, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
The great constant of all human history is that humans have always wanted to kill other humans for whatever reason they can rationalize... be it... Nationalism, Religion, Race, Politics, land... you name it. So can we really "Just get along"?... history is against us!! And so it would seem, is human nature. We will always find ways to divide ourselves into "them and us". Religion is among the many ways we do that. We're Doomed!!! We're all gonna die!!
goatboy smellz

climber
लघिमा
May 6, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco

May 6, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
Religion [X]
Race talk [X]
Climbing [ ]

All we need is some SEX and BOLTS in here and it will be perfect!



goatboy smellz

climber
लघिमा
May 6, 2014 - 07:46pm PT


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 6, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
Well that's refreshing. :-)
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 6, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
I am in total agreement with Donini . . . It is such a crock to see the Politards slinging phrases like "God bless America" . . . what God and whose God? America is about as un-christian as can be . . . Jesus would throw these bastards out of the temple. America is currently treading on a razors edge of hypocrisy and greed . . . all for one and none for all.

That woman's breasts must have been really in need of a good wash.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
goatboy smellz.....would that be Eve and the apple? I can see clearly now...Adam never had a chance. :)

elcap-pics, religion yes. Jesus on the other hand said stuff like, " Bless them that curse you. Pray for those that despitefully use you." He also asked people not to judge others and forgiveness was a huge part of what he spoke about. I've said this a few times before and no one has ever responded. If people lived out Matthew 5,6 and 7 this world would be a different place.

Cheers, lynne

Edit: Kos, "everyone else brings facts." Hmmmm, are there scientific suppositions that we have in the past or today we believe that are not yet substantiated by fact? Jess wondering :)


Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 6, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
You finally posted up . . . predictable response.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 6, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
Denial is alive and well....and obviously much more than a large river in Africa.

I missed who or what is in denial

Cragman?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
A-----very------Long sigh from me, after reading this thread.

Arguement is of no use, but cartoons are fun for us Pagans & ADD Posteurs.





and to round this out----a post on Karma for Werner.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 10:26pm PT
We are not, and never have been, a homogeneous nation like Japan, China or Saudi Arabia.. We are a multi cultural nation with a history of welcoming people of different creeds, colors and cultures. Our founding fathers expoused the concept of freedom of religion for everyone including non believers like me. We are constantly evolving and our demographics are shifting. We are not a nation of any creed, color or culture and that is our strength and that's what differentiates us....and that is what we should be the most proud of.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 6, 2014 - 10:26pm PT
If we're not a Christian nation, why has our military been on a crusade for the last 14 years?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 6, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
A Christian nation full of folks professing Christianity, who talk the talk, don't walk the walk.

Walk on by.

What if someone's daughter is molested by a Catholic (professed Christian) priest?

How many legal settlements have now been reached by these 'good' folks?

Oh wait, "forgive me father".
ruppell

climber
May 6, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
Is this about the masons? Or Christians? Or both?

In case all of you missed it we are just a nation.

Of both.


http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/nation.html
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 6, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
Does Obama believe in Jesus? He pretends to because you have to believe in Jesus to be the president. All those teabaggers have been trying to say he's a Muslim. As that's a bad thing. Bill Clinton. Christian? Ummm. No but he goes to church. Lol!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 6, 2014 - 10:38pm PT

May 6, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
That we are a Christian nation. Ever spent any time at all in D.C.?

The foundational evidence is EVERYWHERE!!!!

You haven't looked around DC. The symbols are mostly Masonic.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 6, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
If we're not a Christian nation, why has our military been on a crusade for the last 14 years?

Oil, to kill Bin Laden, and 'cause "Saddam tried to kill my Daddy."

Oh yeah. People in power are getting rich.


Anything else?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
Donini? Re your last post that starts with:

We are not, and never have been, a homogeneous nation like Japan, China or Saudi Arabia

I know you were in China last fall. Did they convince you they are homogenious?

From Wikipedia on the subject:

China has long been a cradle and host to a variety of the most enduring religio-philosophical traditions of the world.[1] Confucianism and Taoism, plus Buddhism, constitute the "three teachings", philosophical frameworks which historically have had a significant role in shaping Chinese culture.[2][3]

Elements of these three belief systems are often incorporated into the traditional folk religions.[4] Chinese religions are family-oriented and do not demand exclusive adherence, allowing the practice or belief of several at the same time.

Some scholars prefer not to use the term "religion" in reference to belief systems in China, and suggest "cultural practices", "thought systems" or "philosophies" as more appropriate terms.[5] There is a stimulating debate over what to call religion and who should be called religious in China.[6]

The emperors of China claimed the Mandate of Heaven and participated in Chinese religious practices.

Since 1949, China has been governed by the Communist Party of China, an atheist organisation, which regulates the practice of religion in mainland China. It presently formally and institutionally recognises five religions in China: Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestantism, and Catholicism (though despite historic links, the Party enforces a separation of the Chinese Catholic Church from the Roman Catholic Church).[7]

More on this on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 6, 2014 - 10:44pm PT
Does Obama believe in Jesus? He pretends

just the fact that you would even ask such a question.

did you ask that of George Bush, did you ask if he believed in Jesus, and pretends?

why possible reason would you have to think President Obama is not a Christian?

if you said you were and went to church, is that reason for someone else to ask if YOU
believe in Jesus?

wow
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
Fritz, the Han Chinese is an ethnic group that constitutes 92% of the population of mainland China, sounds kind of homogeneous....also from wikipedia.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 6, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
Norton. Obama and Clinton are intelligent. W not so much but I doubt he believes in Jebus either if that makes you feel better. They all pretend to get elected. That was my point.
grover

climber
Northern Mexico
May 6, 2014 - 10:59pm PT

Stay classy America
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
Grover! I do prefer Jesus without a beard. Got any photos of him with a "buzzcut?"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 6, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
^^^ yes Norton. By 2050 with population growth in the world, the religious will be the minority.
I think that's the whole reason the founders wrote the 1st. They knew thru bible proficy that someday 2/3 of the pop. would be atheist. Thus the majority. With an atheist majority the religious are certain to be discremenated against for worshiping an unseeable creator and be held for contempt of court. For now when you atheist go to court, you'll still have to lay ur hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
Fritz, you can't debate so you post cartoons......did you or have you ever read Matthew chapters 5,6 and 7? If not I challenge you to read them and then let us know what you think. Key word here is think.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
go-B, I'm not following your line of debate here.....
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 6, 2014 - 11:26pm PT
Oh Jim, of course we are a christian nation. At least that's what the Third Reich wants you to believe.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 6, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
Fritz, you can't debate so you post cartoons.....

Fritz posts carefully reasoned and highly intelligent arguments regularly. Why do you say he can't debate? He can debate far better than you can -- read through his posting history and tell me with a straight face that he can't debate.

Nobody criticizes you for talking about your friend Jesus instead of offering reasoned argument, so why get on Fritz for posting a cartoon?

And anyway, sometimes a cartoon sums things up better than pages of debate.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 6, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 6, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
He'd f*#k sh#t up!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 6, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
ghost, talking about here and now, not someones posting history and I just asked him a simple question. He can most likely speak for himself. :)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 7, 2014 - 12:21am PT
No this is not a Christian nation!
The Christians nation will be ran by Gods government. One that man cannot understand through his own thinking. I don't think any Christian would call this their ideal Christian nation anyway. But that's not to say we're not going to try..
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 7, 2014 - 12:57am PT
Lynne: Re your question/comment:

Fritz, you can't debate so you post cartoons......did you or have you ever read Matthew chapters 5,6 and 7? If not I challenge you to read them and then let us know what you think. Key word here is think.


I really appreciate you being on ST and I think you are a wonderful person,

However,

you:

Believe

and

I

Think.

With those differences:

We are not going to convince either one of us of anything, which was my point with the cartoons.

I do respect your religion.

Do you respect my Paganism?

As equal to your Christian religion?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 7, 2014 - 01:42am PT
I'm out.

Godspeed.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 01:44am PT
Jesus. He's gonna come back. At some point. Lol. How can intelligent adults believe that? Funny stuff.
grover

climber
Northern Mexico
May 7, 2014 - 01:45am PT
Sorry Fritz no buzzcut pic.

grover

climber
Northern Mexico
May 7, 2014 - 01:49am PT

I saw this guy in Spokane
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 01:59am PT

Or something.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 7, 2014 - 02:16am PT
For now when you atheist go to court, you'll still have to lay ur hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth.

You haven't been to court in a while, if ever, have you????

It doesn't happen like on TV
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
May 7, 2014 - 02:31am PT
"We are a land where, more than nearly everywhere else, opportunity is a function of striving more than it is of birth. "

Ah, I remember back in 1973, when I thought that this was true...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 7, 2014 - 02:36am PT
Jesus. He's gonna come back. At some point. Lol. How can intelligent adults believe that? Funny stuff.

If you ask that question seriously, rather than rhetorically, I would be happy to answer that, as would, I'm sure, many others on this forum who believe precisely that. I see no utility in answering the question for someone uninterested in the answer, though, so I ask. Are you sufficiently interested and is your mind sufficiently open to consider why intelligent people believe that Jesus will return to His creation, or is your mind sufficiently made up that you would dismiss any reply?

John
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
May 7, 2014 - 02:41am PT
If you ask that question seriously, rather than rhetorically, I would be happy to answer that, as would, I'm sure, many others on this forum who believe precisely that. I see no utility in answering the question for someone uninterested in the answer, though, so I ask. Are you sufficiently interested and is your mind sufficiently open to consider why intelligent people believe that Jesus will return to His creation, or is your mind sufficiently made up that you would dismiss any reply?

Code for... you got to know the secret handshake!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 7, 2014 - 02:47am PT
is your mind sufficiently made up that you would dismiss any reply?


mine's not. Do tell.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 7, 2014 - 05:20am PT
I once popped into a barber shop in Grenada. On the wall was a picture of Jesus. A black, Rasta Jesus. Man, I wanted that thing.

I sometimes smile thinking about how surprised America's Chosen would be if that f*#ker came out of the sky on a big white horse.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 7, 2014 - 07:13am PT
What cares? I'm locked up in my own stall.

Christian sex-emisshion. It's the same big old deal, isn't it, Pud-busters?

"He's a donkey and a leftist, but look at that, wouldja!"

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xu81eu_kenneth-okonkwo-turns-down-ini-edo_shortfilms
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 7, 2014 - 07:19am PT
intelligent people


believe that Jesus


Those two phrases should never be used in the same sentence
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 7, 2014 - 07:22am PT
Believe that Jesus loves intelligent people. There. When's hell start, Doc?

Big-ass grin here... :0)
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 7, 2014 - 08:04am PT
There is no hell, but if there is, that's where I want to go when I die.

All of my friends will be there.
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
May 7, 2014 - 08:27am PT
Well, now that I've got my S.T. stoke--I'm off to go hiking. Finally a nice day here in NH.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 7, 2014 - 09:53am PT
Tvash? Is this the Rasta-Jesus you remember. The dude looks hip & holy to me.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 7, 2014 - 11:26am PT
I remember more of a traditional, photo-realism version, but one's memory while in Grenada can be, well, a bit hazy.

I'm not so sure about the white horse part. I think the Rasta Jesus is more likely to step off a packed Toyota Hiace with "Terminator" boldly painted above the winshield, wielding a rusty cutlash.

I also went to the dentist on Grenada, a big, clumsy women with a teenage assistant. At one particularly painful point, she looked down at me and asked "Are you cryin?". Then she turned to her assistant "Look! He's cryin'!"

An accidental jibe and subsequent mainsail boom in the mouth had broken off half my front tooth during the crossing from Trinidad to Grenada. She was fashioning a temporary cap for me - which stayed on all of 3 days before I swallowed it.

My buddy's comment: "I'm not going to help you look for that."



bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 7, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
actually, the "native" americans (american aborigines is more accurate) also migrated...just long before there was an america


but the term christian nation does not mean that everyone here is christian; some might take it to mean the majority are christian, but i see it in a more fundamental way

this nation was founded on core judeo-christian ideas:

1) the benevolent source of our rights, NOT granted by government but "endowed by our creator" from the moment of creation (that includes, for you atheists, the right to deny a creator)

2) the idea that government--a purely manmade construct--cannot deny our rights but, instead, has as its primary function the protection of those rights

3) the recognition not simply of the rights of the individual (the greeks introduced this idea), but, more profoundly, the sanctity of the individual; the idea that every single man, woman, and child (including those in the womb) has value regardless of ability, heritage, race, religion, etc.

we're the ONLY nation founded on these principals, donini, and, as a result, the dream destination of the poor and oppressed from around the world...take away that central concept--rights endowed by god--and what do you have? just another empowered government able to deny us our humanity

before you counter with the laundry list of unchristian acts perpetrated by our government, re-read my points; don't confuse the governments we elect with the ideal upon which our elections are founded; of course, we have and will screw up, but i think an objective assessment will show that the founding principals prevail more than fail

read amazing grace by eric metaxas; christianity was the driving force in the aboltion of slavery (even john brown was religiously motivated), the one argument for which there was no effective counter-argument...the men in the british parliament may not have believed in the christian god, but they did believe in the christian ideals (even if they rarely managed to live up to them personally) and were even willing to risk the lives of their sons to stop the international slave trade
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 7, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
...we're the ONLY nation founded on these principals..

Uh... Not quite correct. The whole of Western politcal philosophy is based on the Social Contract, and therefore every Western country was or is founded in these principles.

As for the "creator" bit - if you review the history of philosphy, and political philosophy in particular, you'll see that the Western 18th Century mind was simply incapable of comprehending any other reality except a world in which there was a Christian God of some kind. It is, therefore, not surprising that 18th Century political thought reflects that outlook. Remember, the Christians were burning people at the stake who claimed that God did not exist.

I really don't think we should be clinging to some antiquated outlook on life, based on the narrow-mindedness and ignorance of people who lived 200 years ago. Or perhaps they weren't so ignorant, maybe they were just afraid of getting their heads chopped off by Good Loving Christians for promoting a political philosophy that didn't glorify the Christian god.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 7, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
...
Oh-oh, my sweet instant Christian you are such a sly clown
Too many questions, no replies now

[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
These ol' white christians are gonna be bummed when my god shows up.









Sanskara

climber
May 7, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Lol

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 7, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
this nation was founded on core judeo-christian ideas:

Dead.Wrong.

the recognition not simply of the rights of the individual (the greeks introduced this idea), but, more profoundly, the sanctity of the individual; the idea that every single man, woman, and child (including those in the womb) has value regardless of ability, heritage, race, religion, etc.

Are you insane? Our founding fathers owned slaves and women weren't allowed to vote. You're kidding right?
Sanskara

climber
May 7, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
My response to "In God We Trust"

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 7, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
The whole of Western politcal philosophy is based on the Social Contract, and therefore every Western country was or is founded in these principles.

Dead. Right.

Which makes us a Greek Nation...uh oh.
Sanskara

climber
May 7, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Wait for it a couple minutes in. Should it be in one of the gun nut threads?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

And I believed in god, well maybe not your god but I don't believe we control as much as most arrogant men would like to think they do.

If you listen close and really pay attention you will see and feel a cosmic hum that ties everything together and makes it one. You have to listen real close though and be willing to take a big step back from all the distractions. You know kinda like when you are mid pitch climbing and the rest of the world just slips away.

And yes I still believe we were born of atoms. I don't believe there will be a second coming of anything. The only thing sinking this ship or saving it from sinking is us stupid stupid men. And women sorry..
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 7, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
america is the only nation founded on judeo-christian principals

1) the source of our rights: NOT granted by a government of men but "endowed by our creator"; that means our rights PRECEDE the government and, therefore, SUPERCEDE our government; the idea that government has as its primary function the protection of our rights

2) not simply the recognition of the individual (which the greeks introduced) but the profound acknowledgement that every man, woman, and child (including those in the womb) has value that, again, precedes society

3) the inversion of millenia of social structure, giving power to the governed and taking it away from the government...the "meek", if you will


imagine donini, what if we reject the idea of a creator, what do we have left? just another government empowered to determine what rights we should be allowed to have...the government powerful enough to give you what you want is powerful enough to take it away--tj
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 7, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
...what do we have left? just another government empowered to determine what rights we should be allowed to have....

Only a Christian would come to that conclusion. Because, like the religious peoples of the 18th Century, you cannot even comprehend a world without a god.

Open your mind. The Social Contract is still entirely valid if you reject the idea of a creator. What you are left with is simply the idea that all men are equal with the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You see, it still works just fine without god.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
May 7, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
Great thread Donini
BBST motherfvcker
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
.....excepting women, black men, Indians, and the French.
and homosexuals and atheists and Muslims......
Plenty of "categories" of humans are left out by too many "Christians"
The new Pope seems to have gotten his funny hat right way on. We'll see how much he can push back the Church curtains of silence and bigotry.
Will there be women Cardinals in my lifetime? I doubt it.

When 1/2 the Cardinals are women, then the Catholic Church will have some authority about women's reproduction.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 7, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Wade*,

I'm doing paid work today, but I'll try to respond this evening. Other than you, though, I see no other interest in my reply.

John

*Or should it be Way?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 7, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
FortMental: Per your request:

Bookworm...please provide the entire list of books from which you get your facts.

All two of them.


Unfortunately Bookworm lost his library in a tragic fire.

yep!

Both books burned,

Worse yet,

One hadn't even been colored in.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
or was that "nattering nabobs of negativism" Agnew?
Although Nixon initially liked and respected Agnew, as time progressed he felt his vice president lacked the intelligence and vision, particularly in foreign affairs, to sit in the Oval Office
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 7, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
Bookie... you have bailed on the abortion thread YOU started, because you were obviously getting your butt kicked there. Now you hop onto this thread to shed yet more darkness here.

You are no thinker, so quit pontificating like one. You have yet to make a reasoned case on ANY subject.

Regarding the social contract, if you want to debate on that one, it's gonna be yet another ugly blowout, like on the abortion thread. Just as on the subject of abortion, you are entirely unread and untutored on this subject as well.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
“There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.”
― George Washington




“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― George Washington

Dean, what say you to that last quote?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 7, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
JEleazarian, I don't know if I'd waste my time. This thread contains some of the best examples of meaningless spray I've seen in quite a while.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 7, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
(including those in the womb)

And this where your trolling trash gets shown up as such. Because NO WHERE in the founding documents is there any reference to this. NO WHERE.

But that doesn't stop you from adding it in.

Did what you say also apply to slave unborn fetuses?

Has there been a single legal case in the entire history of the country that demonstrates that protection to slave unborn fetuses?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 7, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
JEleazarian, I don't know if I'd waste my time.

John E treats people on this forum -- whatever their views on climbing, religion, or politics -- with respect. In return, he is treated with great respect not just by those who agree with him, but by all.

If he were to make the effort to provide the reasoning behind his religious views, I suspect the response would be respectful. I also suspect that if someone harshed on him, that someone would get slapped by the rest of us very quickly.

This is not an effort to try to persuade John to wade in, but rather to point out that there is a reason why some people are treated rudely while others are treated with respect.

Edit to add: Same goes for you Lynne. You don't ever crap on people simply because they disagree with you, and therefore you are treated well. In fact there are a lot of us who take that approach. Most of what makes ST ugly comes from just a handful of people.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 7, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
I dunno, Lynne....this thread contains some of the best-articulated & relatively respectful positions on the subject than I've seen at ST in some time. Perhaps it is you that finds those positions discomforting or threatening?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
I usually refrain from contradicting bookworm as It would occupy my entire day.
america is the only nation founded on judeo-christian principals
Let's parse that very popular bit of nonsense a bit.
"only"
that's an extremely broad claim.

"founded"
OK, if you want an extremely literal definition, most nations existing today outside of Africa and South America existed long before we did and weren't really founded. They evolved into existence. Certainly most nations since have been "founded", usually by their African and South American colonial masters. Think Kenya, India, Pakistan, Chile, etc etc

But let's stop parsing the ridiculous claim.
England, France, Russia, etc etc etc evolved with direct involvement of the prominent church of the time. England still respects (as in the 1st Amendment meaning) the Church of England/Anglican Church. That is likely to change in the near future.

Your claim is another blatantly ignorant America is #1 fairy tale. We were founded on the English principles of justice and law (Bill of Rights, 1689) which were specifically Protestant. Remember Henry VIII? Probably not.
How many Jews can you find in the founding fathers? There are more deists/agnostics/atheists.

A more rational claim is we were the first modern nation founded on the principle that the state must not respect any religion. But let's not bother with the facts. They're often so inconvenient.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 7, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
'America founded on Judeo Christian principles' is a meme that gets parroted alot, but it comes with two fatal flaws:

1) America's only real unique quality as a new nation was that it was secular.

2) The principles underlying America's Bill of Rights find their earliest historical origins in Natural Law, as posited by Plato and the Stoics, ideas which were subsequently popularized by the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, and spread centuries later by Thomas Aquinas. It seems that early Christians borrowed some of these principles. They certainly didn't invent them.

Nor do many modern Christian sects adhere to them. Take the idea of equality under the law, for example.

The fundamentalist version of Christianity is, on its face, at odds with idea of equality. The world is divided into Saved and Damned. Bigotry has always found a good home, here - it is the core of Christian doctrine.

And therein lies the rub. History is fun and interesting, but what really matters is the actions people take today. From marital equality to a woman's right to make her own reproductive choices and evolution, Christianity is the largest organized movement that seeks to maintain a divided, bigoted, ignorant, and punitive America.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 7, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
A more rational claim is we were the first modern nation founded on the principle that the state must not respect any religion. But let's not bother with the facts. They're often so inconvenient.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
and anyway what's this dissing America?
america
without the capital A?
Even I have more respect.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 7, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
John E treats people on this forum -- whatever their views on climbing, religion, or politics -- with respect.

Wholeheartedly agree. And I appreciate that he actually has some professional background behind many of his positions.

It is not the case that everybody's opinion is as good as everybody else's. I'll take an opinion like John's more seriously than many.

At the other end of the spectrum is bookie....
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 7, 2014 - 03:33pm PT



Wut kind of climbing shoes did the founders have?


Jus wonderin is all....


Not many clear pictures, although I think I can see Donini in this one. Standards sure rose once Bachar came back from Spain with some Fires.




They clearly cut corners, see how few stars they have on the flag. Couldn't pay to have more sewn on I suspect....













madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 7, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
The fundamentalist version of Christianity is, on its face, at odds with idea of equality. The world is divided into Saved and Damned. Bigotry has always found a good home, here - it is the core of Christian doctrine.

I was right with you until the above-quoted passage. I certainly do understand the ire that motivates such a perspective, but I think a more nuanced perspective is a more accurate one.

I agree that many Christians are bigoted, narrow (and closed) minded, and vociferous in their unsubstantiated superiority!

However, that said, the sort of division you describe, of saved and damned, is one that genuine Christianity (not many/most Christians) leaves to God! A genuine Christian would say something like, we are all equal in our need of salvation, and there is NO superiority to be found among humans. Thus, genuine Christians should be the most open-minded, carefully-reasoned, thoughtful, non-judgmental, and non-bigoted individuals on Earth. Christ said, "He who has been forgiven much loves much." Sadly, what I see in most of mainstream Christianity is ONLY bumper-stickers about having been forgiven--precious little actual sense of their having been forgiven much and the corresponding love.

So, I'm distinguishing between the actual principles of (even fundamentalist) Christianity and that twisted, distorted version practiced by FAR too many supposed Christians. Even fundamentalism holds as a fundamental principle that all people are equal and that Christ died to save ALL people. No bigotry nor sense of superiority there!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
Ok Lynne, since Dean isn't around, what do you think of Georges quote?

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― George Washington
John M

climber
May 7, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
TVash..

Bigotry has always found a good home, here - it is the core of Christian doctrine.

It can find a good home in the christian religion because christianity is made up of humans, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus' teaching were bigoted. He taught tolerance and he taught people to love their enemy. Not that that is necessarily commonly practiced among Christians. You have to separate out what Jesus taught, from his followers. Bigotry is not a core Christian doctrine.

Are the pagans on this forum who constantly deride people for their beliefs in God bigots?

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred on the basis of a person's ethnicity, evaluative orientation, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

So then would you say that bigotry has found a good home among pagans?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 7, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
Leaving bigotry "in God's hands" is, of course, a classic "my hands are tied" dodge. There can be no shunting of responsibility for one's actions to the divine or anywhere else.

One chooses one's beliefs and actions. Anyone who acts in a bigoted fashion, regardless of justification, is, by definition, choosing to be a bigot.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 7, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
I won't get wrapped around the axle about Jesus because there is scant historical evidence that he existed at all. As the New Testament was written decades after his death by persons unknown - believe whatever you like, really.

Having said that, the scriptural version of Jesus was, in fact, bigoted towards foreigners, as one would expect for a person of his time:

Matthew 15:21-28

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 **He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”**

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

He relented in the end, so there's that.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 7, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
A treaty of peace and friendship between the United States and Tripoli that was approved by George Washington explicitly stated: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion…”


This treaty was negotiated by the American diplomat Joel Barlow during the administration of George Washington. Washington read it and approved it, although it was not ratified by the senate until John Adams had become president.

Finally, and most obviously, if the founding fathers intended to include Jesus, the Bible, or other particular aspects of the Christian faith in the founding of our nation, they would have expressly done so. However, the two references to religion that are in the Constitution contain exclusionary language. The First Amendment says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .” and in Article VI, Section III, “… no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

The founding fathers’ purposes were clear. They had no intention to found the country according to Christian doctrines. http://hipstermonk.com/religious-wisdom-of-americas-founding-fathers/
John M

climber
May 7, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
Leaving bigotry "in God's hands" is, of course, a classic "my hands are tied" dodge.

who said one word about leaving it in God's hands? I certainly didn't. My point was that bigotry is found in every area of life because its found in humans. Since humans make up christianity, then of course christianity harbors bigotry. But then so does pagansim and thus your classifying it as a christian is false. It is not a christian doctrine anymore then it is a pagan doctrine.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 7, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
One chooses one's beliefs and actions. Anyone who acts in a bigoted fashion, regardless of justification, is, by definition, choosing to be a bigot.

Entirely agreed!

But my point is that there is nothing uniquely or fundamentally Christian about bigotry. My other point is that genuine Christianity fundamentally disavows bigotry.

The fact that individual Christians are such in name only, as they have not had the love of Christ transform their hearts (which will remove every trace of bigotry), only speaks to their individual choices rather than to Christianity itself.

I might add that genuine Christians should be the first to recognize that the United States is NO theocracy and that, therefore, cannot be molded into the image of, say, the ancient Israelite nation! So, we're gonna have all SORTS of "immoral" things going on that are LEGAL and that SHOULD be legal!

Personally, I believe that the greatness of the USA cannot be measured by its "righteousness," but its freedom. God wants people to freely recognize Him or freely reject Him. Coercion is the antithesis of genuine Christianity, and Christians should be the first to recognize this principle!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 7, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
I won't get wrapped around the axle about Jesus because there is scant historical evidence that he existed at all. As the New Testament was written decades after his death by persons unknown - believe whatever you like, really.

My only response to this is that I don't want to engage in this sort of thread-drift. But I don't believe that this perspective is sustainable. That's all I'll say here, just so that I'm not "implicitly agreeing" by just letting it slide.

Now, back to the topic at hand....
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
2014 years and still waiting. Patience is a virtue. But yeah he'll show up.

It's like that guy a gave $40 to to go get me a bag of weed. Still waiting...
John M

climber
May 7, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
"equally worthless"

there is a huge difference between.. everyone has sinned, and everyone is worthless..
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 7, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
I'd say there is a loose connection between the philosophical foundations of Christianity and those of United States, but the link is not strong enough to claim that "We are Christian nation."

Well said, imho.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
Great troll btw Jim.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 7, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
http://www.nationalturk.com/en/1500-year-old-syriac-bible-found-in-ankara-turkey-16624


1500 year-old ‘ Syriac ‘ Bible found in Ankara, Turkey : Vatican in shock !


Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey
The relic was ‘rediscovered’ in the depositum of Ankaran Justice Palace, the ancient version of bible is believed to be written in Syriac, a dialect of the native language of Jesus.

Ankara / Turkey – The bible was already in custody of Turkish authorities after having been seized in 2000 in an operation in Mediterranean area in Turkey. The gang of smugglers had been charged with smuggling antiquities, illegal excavations and the possession of explosives and went to trial. Turkish police testified in a court hearing they believe the manuscript in the bible could be about 1500 to 2000 years old.After waiting eight years in Ankara the ancient bible is being transferred to the Ankaran Ethnography Museum with a police escort.

Ancient Bible will be shown in Ankaran Ethnography Museum

The bible, whose copies are valued around 3-4 Mil. Dollars had been transferred to Ankara for safety reasons, since no owners of the ancient relic could be found.

The manuscript carries excerpts of the Bible written in gold lettering on leather and loosely strung together, with lines of Syriac script with Aramaic dialect. Turkish authorities express the bible is a cultural asset and should be protected for being worthy of a museum.

Ancient Bible in Aramaic dialected Syriac rediscovered in Turkey

Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic – the native language of Jesus – once spoken across much of the Middle East and Central Asia. It is used wherever there are Syrian Christians and still survives in the Syrian Orthodox Church in India and a village in the vicinity of Syrian capital Damascus. Aramaic is also still used in religious rituals of Maronite Christians in Cyprus.

Experts were however divided over the provenance of the manuscript, and whether it was an original, which would render it priceless, or a fake. Other questions surround the discovery of the ancient bible, whether the smugglers had had other copies of the relic or had smuggled them from Turkey.

Vatican eyes the faith of the ancient relic

The Vatican reportedly placed an official request to examine the scripture, which was written on pages made of animal hide in the Aramaic language using the Syriac alphabet.

The copy of the ancient Bible is valued as high as 40 million Turkish Liras ( 28 Mil. Dollars)



Apparently the Gospel of Barnabas claims Jesus wasn't crucified but ascended directly to heaven and that it was Judas who was actually crucified in his place.
Binks

climber
Uranus
May 7, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
yeah, i've had enough about the guy allegedly rising from the dead more than 2000 years ago, and who is actually, allegedly, the lord and creator of the universe. splendid job, mate. is this the best you can come up with? is this the best WE can come up with for a story of the "divine"

the fact that this absurdity continues to influence the human race and brainwash people lends greatly to the theory that life really is a joke.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
.because god only lives in 3 religions
Christianity, Judaism and yes, Islam all believe in the God of Abraham.

Karen Armstrong is a brilliant ex-Catholic nun religious scholar.
Her book on the history of Islam from before until shortly after Mohammed is excellent reading.

Only Christians believe Jesus was the son of god.
Hence many Christians believe Jews and/or Muslims are apostates at best and heathens at worst. Made it easy for Hitler to convince Lutheran/Catholic Germany to send them to the ovens.
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
All you idiots are still forced to OBEY no matter how much you run your mouths here.

God or Govt .... you still remain subservient and told what to do.

Yer all hypocrites .....

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
Cragman
fair enough it is in the Treaty Of Tripoli you mention.
Which when presented to the Senate for ratification raised no serious objections
President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification. Twenty-three of the thirty-two sitting Senators were present for the June 7 vote which unanimously approved the ratification recommendation.[

Political expediency? perhaps. Or perhaps they really had no objection to
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion —as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

The Founding Fathers knew one thing very very well. Mess not with thy neighbor's religion and not put thine own above others'
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 7, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
Yer all hypocrites .....

Yeah, while you're a free spirit childe of the universe....



Good luck with that.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
This statement was made by an official representative of the U.S., but is actually a line from the English version of the Treaty of Tripoli of 1796,

Ok Dean, I'll take your word for it. Can you provide me a link or something, so I can trust, but verify?

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
survival....see my link above
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 7, 2014 - 07:12pm PT
Ok, got it. I think the point is the same relative to the founders and christianity.
dirtbag

climber
May 7, 2014 - 07:14pm PT

May 7, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
re hypocrits:

Well, actually that depends on the religion in question. Islam instructs its followers to go out and destroy the "infidel" which is precisely what the practitioners of terrorism are doing. Obviously not every Islamist is a terrorist but those who are so are actually not hypocrits.

The Christians? Well, they have a bit of a harder time using their faith to justify war (which is what they want to do anyway). Supposedly Jesus preached against violence but somehow the Christians have managed to find an excuse to make considerable war in the name of religion. Humans are very ingenious creatures. Millions of people have been burned, tortured, maimed or outright slaughtered in the name of Jesus.

Judaism? I am less familiar with that set of religious beliefs. I am not entirely certain as to what their religious edicts instruct them to do. Historically, they often found themselves on the receiving end of another group's hostility. In the past, at least, they were fairly busy defending themselves against hostility reigned on them by others.

HiLois!

dirtbag

climber
May 7, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
Who cares? That's not what the law says.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
You can kill a hooker and still go to heaven.
dirtbag

climber
May 7, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Craignman,

I believe you miss the point of the question. We are not debating whether there is any truth to the issue of Jesus. I am asking you to answer what YOU, Craigman, would do differently if there was no Jesus. I asked you a hypothetical question. I hope you are not going to tell me that all of these ethical and charitable things you do in your life along with the way you lead your life are done ONLY because of Jesus. Surely, you are not going to tell me that if Jesus did not exist, you would behave unethically.

Hi Lois!
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
I believe in the golden rule. Werks for me.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
And good on you Dean.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
May 7, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
I'm with Larry. No religion here, just basic values for humanity.

Modern religion is a sham, controlling people through dogma is wrong.

Intertwining government and religion is wrong.

Love is the key, not organized religion.

Live by a high moral code, respect others and your environment, and keep your religious beliefs to yourself.

Edit; Dean, that wasn't directed at you specifically.

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 7, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
The sooner the Abrahamic religions are dust, the better off humanity will be.
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
The sooner this disgusting USA govt stops waring on just about every country in the Mideast the better off humanity will be.

The latest is the stupid fool US govt meddling in Ukraine overthrowing the democratically elected govt there and installing a Neofascist proxy govt in it's place and almost starting WWIII.

You people are hypocrites to the max with your ethical bullsh!t .....

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
May 7, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
I don't have the energy to really get into this tonight, long day at work.

But, if you're not a believer in 'religion', and you're a 'Christian', what are you? And, if you and I share the same values and practice them, you're going to 'heaven' and I'm not? Simply because I don't prescribe to your spiritual structure? That makes no sense to me.

God doesn't play favorites when it comes to what church, temple, mosque, or forest you worship at, that's a human affectation.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 7, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
Yikes!

This thread has definitely been Loisified!

Outie!
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
May 7, 2014 - 09:51pm PT


May 7, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
The sooner this disgusting USA govt stops waring on just about every country in the Mideast the better off humanity will be.

The latest is the stupid fool US govt meddling in Ukraine overthrowing the democratically elected govt there and installing a Neofascist proxy govt in it's place and almost starting WWIII.

You people are hypocrites to the max with your ethical bullsh!t .....

I laughed. bully for you, Werner. You don't go changing.


cragman with his usual crap. Religious platitudes are the first and easiest refuge for a guy without a mind.
Gene

climber
May 7, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
a guy without a mind.

If you have different beliefs than others, fine. Why do you need to publicly disrespect those that believe differently? I don’t get it. Please educate me.

g
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 7, 2014 - 10:35pm PT

Now Mexico, (forgetting of course the earliest inhabitants) that is a Christian nation. Why not merge the Los Estados Unidos and Mexico into one big Christian nation, then it won't be necessary to have these discusssions, because clearly the Christians will outnumber the pagans.


Save a lot of money on border patrollers too.


Do you wonder if those Christian drug traffickers who chop off so many heads, get down on bended knee and utter the three big ones "Forgive me father.."





zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 7, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
There is a HUGE difference between the 'letter' of the law....and the 'spirit' of the law.

Ah spirits!

Now the Holy Ghost, that's one I can get on board with. I just wonder why he/she doesn't get equal billing with Jesus. Jesus was His only son, wasn't the HG his only ghost.

Why isn't anyone following the HG?

Did Mary and Joseph have anything to do with it?



Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 7, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
QITNL! Re your comment:

May 7, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Myself, I worship the mountains.

Whatever god you choose is fine with me, or none at all, I won't belittle your faith. But bear in mind my religion predates yours by about a bizillion years. My church has living trees twice the age of Jesus.

Your welcome to piss on my religion all you want. All the animals do it. My religion is very absorbent.


No problems here. Significant mountains, major rivers, and ancient trees are all more worthy of respect & belief than ancient prose.


zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 7, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
^^Cragman

Yeah I know I went to catechism, but why no equal billing?

Jesus Christ -> Christians
Holy Ghost/Spirit ... -> Spirituality

Why aren't we talking about a Spiritual nation?

Why isn't the Father's Father included, what some would call the GodFather?


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 7, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
This wasn’t a problem until a granola eating moonbat from California woke up from a bad acid trip and saw the Statue staring at him

Wonder who that might have been?

http://weaselzippers.us/185310-american-legion-files-court-papers-to-keep-jesus-statue-on-big-mountain-montana/

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 7, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
People without a mental illness are more likely to ...


























































Follow the Platinum Rule?














He who avoids platitudes rules.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 7, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
Dean, I deleted my post because I thought you might think I was referring to you. I wasn't but I was referring to the general Christian belief that if you don't except god you're going to burn in hell.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
May 7, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 7, 2014 - 11:45pm PT

Some people automatically associate morality and altruism with a religious vision of the world. But I believe it is a mistake to think that morality is an attribute only of religion. We can imagine two types of spirituality: one tied to religion, while the other arises spontaneously in the human heart as an expression of love for our neighbors and a desire to do them good.

And Jefe, thanks for sharing the Great Bell Chant. Helped me a lot today.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 7, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
"The good lord willin' . . . "
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 7, 2014 - 11:51pm PT

I have worshipped at a non-denominational Christian church.....free of the constraints of man-made dogma, and tuned more to hearing the Spirit of God....and being obedient to His calling for me....not what some man-made doctrine contrived.

Amen!

Glad to know ya Brother!
WBraun

climber
May 8, 2014 - 12:19am PT
So everyone showed their so called god/God.

Will the real GOD please stand up ........
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 8, 2014 - 12:38am PT
He already has Werner......He's the Rock. :)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 8, 2014 - 01:08am PT
You're the best QITNL......and I count you as friend. See ya in the Sierra and stop by for comida and conversation. Cheers, lynnie
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 8, 2014 - 10:20am PT
Then got shipped up to Oregon. Purgatory. They look like mountains but all the holds fall off.

Now, for saying that, you're going to hell for sure dude!!!


WBraun

climber
May 8, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Americans don't go to hell.

They've already created hell on earth for a long time now and are still busy at it as ever ........
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 8, 2014 - 11:35am PT
QITNL, now you went and rubbed Survival's fur the wrong way! HaHaHaHa!
That's what I said when we went on a road trip from Seattle to Whitney in '69
and stopped by some rocks near Bend.

"Well, they look pretty cool but what a bunch of choss. Let's go, open me a Rainier."
WBraun

climber
May 8, 2014 - 11:37am PT
Ron A

Except these lab coat fools think if they can't create a spirit in their beaker then there's no such thing.

Those beaker boys think they're god ........
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 11:39am PT
"I know this though...

All of us will stand before God at some point. In my mind, there will be one question asked of us, and that is.....What did you do with my Son? Accept Him?....deny Him?....boast of Him?....curse Him?

Living a good, honorable life is important. That Golden Rule....is the stuff!

I just know God sacrificed his Son for a reason.....and how we view that sacrifice is going to be key to eternity.

This is my belief"




Narcissistic beliefs for a narcissistic God.

In the end, the key to eternity the real nut here. Gimme dat.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
May 8, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
Here's one of my buds, hoping that "the holds don't fall off" in Oregon. ha!

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 8, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
The holds only fall off on guys that don't know how to properly "caress" them.... damn neanderthals....

DanaB

climber
CT
May 8, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
"Maybe if we all sit here very, very quietly, religion will just go away."

Ed Sklar, a.k.a Swami Sklar-ar-anda
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
May 8, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Men are sinners...and I am amongst the greatest of these.

Cragman - this may be part of what people see as a problem with the Christian psychology and belief system. Maybe this seems like humility to a Christian, or maybe it's a reflection of the accuracy of the Christian belief system. But in a country with 15, 000 murders last year, the rest of us may need to see the TR before being convinced by your beliefs. While we admire you personally, we're embarrassed to be associated with the arrogance and irrationality of your Christian belief system.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 8, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
I hear Christ hung out with prostitutes.

Well woop de dooo, so do I.....


;o)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
"I know there's a God (for which there is zero verifiable evidence)" - the most arrogant statement in human history.

Even an eternally damned pagan such as myself doesn't claim to 'know'. I only 'know' what I don't believe.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 8, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
^^^^^^^^
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
No one prays for the Rapture more fervently that I.

But, seriously, do your own thing as needed - and let others do theirs. Actions, not beliefs, define a person's impact on the world.

And thank God for that.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
A gay married America is still the same America with a few more penis shaped wedding cakes.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
May 8, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Being an atheist and believing that Christian theology - the God part, not the Love They Neighbor part, is patently ridiculous on its face, is also OK.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 8, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
A complex mixture of genes are involved, but differences in 11 single-nucleotide polymorphisms alone could predict 23% of the total variance. Timmons was able to demonstrate that about half of the responsiveness ... was genetically determined.
knucko

climber
May 8, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
Let's put it this way:

If your blind date told you you had two choices:

1) Love me more than anything else in your life or
2) I'll torture you for eternity

what would your next move be?

Christian doctrine (the God part) is the very definition of psychopathy. The only different between the date scenario and real Christianity is that you can actually see your date in front of you - so there's actually something there to love.

If there are 2 billion Christians in the world, and let's say half believe that all unbelievers will go to Hell - then, in their view, fully 5 billion of us angry hairless monkeys are Firey Lake Bound for eternity.

That doesn't sound insane to me at all.

The cult - fundamentalist version, is exclusive, bigoted, and violence/punishment oriented on its face.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 8, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
Thank god the Chinese don't believe in that tripe!

Although Chinese statistics on religious beliefs are not particularly reliable, there are probably more Chinese Christians currently than there are Christians of any other ethnicity. I do know that the growth of Bible Study Fellowship groups among the population of mainland China has been explosive.

John
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
Christianity can be a popular product, given that:

Cost of goods is low - sellers need not deliver anything

Value (although its arguably mythical) is high: escape from death, ever present love, and exclusive status.

Ironically, homo sapiens evolved to value exactly those things more than just about anything else.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 8, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
Doctrine and its flock are not the same thing.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 8, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
growth of Bible Study Fellowship groups among the population of mainland China has been explosive.
The Chinese Government is doing a lot to interfere with their non-existent freedom of religion. After all Christians are often subversive of government.

Which leads to some curious or tragic paradoxes in the modern world
Putin is a "devout" Russian Orthodox ex Communist KGB agent. Pretty convenient way to get all the Russian Orthodox voters behind him.
Hitler pitted Christians against the Jews, homosexuals and the mentally retarded. The Lutheran church said little, the Pope said nothing.

Prime Minister Cameron of the UK recently called Britain a Christian Nation. And got thoroughly called out for it including by the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Even through the Anglican Church is the official Church Of England. (likely not for long)

India split into separate religions: India and Pakistan. They've been at each other's throats ever since. Even though Gandhi had close Muslim and Hindu advisors.
Iraq violence is largely between Shia and Sunni Muslims.
India is likely to elect a Hindu supremacist (my word) Prime Minister.
The worst violence in the Central African Republic is Christians against Muslims.
Sri Lanka has been torn by Hindu-Buddhist violence until very recently
Burma is Hindu against Muslim right now.
(The Muslims can't catch a break lately)

All of these religions teach something akin to you are your brother's keeper and do unto others. Just as long as it stays within the family.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 8, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
The cult - fundamentalist version, is exclusive, bigoted, and violence/punishment oriented on its face.

God is God. While you're free to believe what you will, your belief has no effect whatsoever on what God chooses.

I promised Wade Icey a couple of days ago to say why I think intelligent people can (and do) believe Jesus will return. In very brief terms (to coincide with a very brief lunch break) here are my reasons. Others may decide for themselves what constitutes "intelligence" in acceptance or rejection of beliefs.

First, I choose to believe the New Testament texts on what Jesus said and did. The texts themselves are better supported by ancient manuscripts than any other ancient texts, with the possible exception of the Old Testament portions found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Consequently, I find it logical to conclude that they accurately reflect what the authors wrote.

I am aware of textual criticism, "higher criticism" and just about every other way people who don't like what they read in the Bible choose to re-write it to their liking, but I find it takes more faith to believe the critics than it does to believe the truth. Similarly, I am aware of the heretical texts such as the so-called gospels of Judas and Barnabas, which were rejected by those who knew the authors, and by those who saw Jesus. Again, for all of these reasons, I conclude that the canon of the Bible accurately reflects what Jesus said and did.

The authors of the New Testament were, for the most part, eye witnesses. I say "for the most part" because Luke/Acts specifically states that it was the result of diligent inquiry rather than eyewitness accounts, and we do not know who wrote the book of Hebrews. Once again, I conclude that the Bible accurately reflects what Jesus said and did.

It is equally clear that the authors of the New Testament were convinced of Jesus's bodily resurrection. The message on that point was, essentially, "He arose. We saw him after his crucifixion and death. Ask us." (See, e.g., 1 Cor. 15:1 ff.) The effect on Saul of Tarsus was particularly dramatic, but I, too, have seen people change because of Jesus Christ. In fact, a paralegal -- who was not a Christian -- in our office where I worked in Los Angeles, once remarked that the only things she'd seen that really changed people were substance abuse and Jesus Christ.

Of equal importance, all evidence shows that the original Apostles were willing to die -- often horrendous deaths -- rather than renounce their belief in the risen Christ. Why would these men, who were eye witnesses, refuse to renounce their beliefs despite given many chances to do so, and rather be fed to the lions, crucified, beheaded or lit as torches by Nero, unless they believed what they said they saw?

Similarly, those religions that come after Jesus, but differ from the Biblical account of Him, necessarily have to argue that the Biblical account is simply wrong. The evidence that it is wrong is nothing more than disbelief. There is no text even remotely contemporaneous to the First Century with any historical authenticity.

All of this is preliminary to saying that I choose to believe the eye witness accounts as presented. Others argue that any references to miraculous events must be erroneous, because modern humanity has seen no miraculous events. That is a logical, but circular, argument. While circular arguments are not necessarily false, neither are they necessarily true.

All four Gospels, as well as the epistles of Paul, Peter and John, and the Book of Hebrews, attest that Jesus claimed divine status. Similarly, all of those same authorities state that Jesus said He would come again in power and glory, but that the time of his return would be unknown and unexpected.

Is 2,000 years a ridiculous time to wait? In the human life span, it seems so. That may be why 1 Peter reminds readers that for the Lord, 1,000 years is like a day. Concluding that it hasn't happened yet, therefore it won't happen is a non-sequitur.

Obviously, I am not saying that pure logic inevitably leads to the conclusion I've reached, but I am saying that the evidence available makes such a conclusion rational. In a way, though, Todd Eastman was on to something with his comment of a couple of nights ago involving a secret handshake, etc. I spent many years as what I like to call a Heroic Existentialist Atheist.* I think the intervention of the Holy Spirit is the only reason I converted.

Put another way, I don't think of myself as more righteous (or more anything else good) than anyone else, and certainly not than non-Christians. I think I am fortunate that God waited for me, because much of my pre-Christian existence included all of my time when I was learning to climb. That time gave me some excellent lessons, but only because I survived.

Sorry to be so sketchy and yet so long-winded simultaneously. If I had more time, I would explain myself more succinctly. Again, I'm not saying those who disagree are stupid, evil or anything else. I'm just giving a glimpse of why I don't think Christianity requires that you forfeit your mind.

John

*Atheism is not a necessary condition of Existentialism, as Kierkegaard, among others, showed.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 8, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
I am aware of textual criticism, "higher criticism" and just about every other way people who don't like what they read in the Bible choose to re-write it to their liking,

lol

i am aware of fundamentalists who reject all post 18th-century linguistics and historical research in order to have a sacred text that is more to their liking.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 8, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
Thanks, DMT. I hope it's clear that I'm not attacking yours or anyone else's -- although I must be right!

John
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 8, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
Mahatma Ghandi was a deeply religious, spiritual man, but was adamant that India, as a new democracy, have a secular Government rather than a Hindu based one. India is not perfect and has enormous problems, but for such a huge nation, the Hindu majority and the other religious minorities coexist reasonably well most of the time, even when Hindu nationalists are elected.

If you contrast that with how religious minorities are treated in many countries where the Government is based upon Muslim law, you see the wisdom of his position.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 8, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
there are three basic uses of "Christian Nation."

one simply means that Christians constitute a numerical majority of the population of the US. that wouldn't be an interesting claim, so that one isn't really at issue.

a second is a provocative theological claim: the US has a covenant with God. that is a fringe theological position (and heretical in some schools), but it is well-represented on the internet.

a third is a secular, historical claim: that the the republican form of government created in The Articles of Confederation and then The Constitution derived from The New Testament. this one has become a popular claim among Protestant fundamentalists. but it isn't true, at least not in the sense that it's usually intended.

the drafters and conventions explicitly rejected the well-known period examples of state constitutions that put Christianity explicitly at the center of claims for right to governance. Massachusetts, for example, had a Constitution that might have lent weight to a "Christian Nation" kind of claim-- but it was rejected. the vagaries of language were deliberate, which is not surprising considering the range of disagreement among unitarians, anglicans, and methodists at the time, and that's even before you throw in the handful of Deists like Jefferson. now that 18th centiury wasn't as secular as a lot of modern atheists would like to suggest, but the conscious decision to avoid the Puritan example matters, (although it doesn't really offer an easy slam-dunk argument against the kind of public displays at issue in the latest SC case).

what a lot of the well-intentioned folk on this forum seem not to understand, is just how offensive it is to claim that the US is a "Christian Nation." That's no longer a simple statement about your personal faith in Christ or whatever. That is a positive claim about the exclusiveness of the political organization of the nation-- Deist? gtfo Jew? gtfo. Buddhist, Hindu, Moslem? gtfo. Taoist, Native American, Agnostic? gtfo.

fwiw, the concept of "Christian Nation" was most thoroughly elaborated in the late 1950s and early 1960s by a former Berkeley undergrad named Rousas Rushdooney. Rushdooney was a smart guy-- he was also a white supremacist and he worked hard to try to make the concept anti-black as well as anti-semitic. that doesn't mean that everyone using the phrase now is just like Rushdooney or has inherited all of his extremist positions on on religion and policy.

Molly Worthen's book has a good and theologically informed history of the anti-modernist theological movements of the 20th century from Machen forward.

klk

Trad climber
cali
May 8, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
yeah, two of the curiosities of general internet or campfire talk about religion is the way that, in the US, evangelical and mostly fundamentalist Protestantism comes to represent "Christianity" generally.

the 2nd, and closely related to the first, is how many Christians internalize a self-image as an oppressed minority, despite their overwhelming numerical majority, and then when real religious minorites or dissenters object to a particular bigoted formulation of Christian superiority, take it as evidence that Christianity as a whole is under siege.

i think that, in an indirect way, missionary work has tended to reinforce that sense-- missionaries abroad are often in places where they really are religious minorities and often really are facing hostility from local governments of various kinds. a chunk of religious media in the US is devoted to reports of ant-Christian atrocities in backwaterstan or wherever.
Rudbud

Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
May 8, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
300!!! whooo hoooo!!!!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 8, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
Any "enlightened Christianity" (cf: enlightened Islam) would entail embracing the Abrahamic narrative (aka the bible stories) from start to finish - from Creation to The Fall (Original Sin) to Resurrection and Ascension - as mythology. To read Cragman to JE, let alone Blu to go-b, it's obvious that any "wising up" in this regard is still a long ways off. One or two generations at least.

Expression in the other Abrahamic system...


Thank goodness for our youth, however. Because of them and their adaptive capitalizing on science, science edu and the info age, Abrahamic religion won't survive the end of the 21st century. (At least no more than astrology survived the 20th century.) So long-term take heart.

.....

The motion: Death is not Final

http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/upcoming-debates/item/1020-death-is-not-final
mueffi 49

Trad climber
May 8, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
"Religion is the opium of the people" is one of the most frequently paraphrased statements of German economist Karl Marx. It was translated from the German original, "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" and is often referred to as "the religion... is the opiate of the masses." The quotation originates from the introduction of his proposed work A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right; this work was never written, but the introduction (written in 1843) was published in 1844 in Marx's own journal Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher, a collaboration with Arnold Ruge. The phrase "This opium you feed your people" appeared in 1797 in Marquis de Sade's text L'Histoire de Juliette and Novalis's "[R]eligion acts merely as an opiate" around the same time. The full quote from Karl Marx is: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

Contents [hide]
1 Marx
2 Sade
3 Novalis
4 Charles Kingsley
5 Lenin
6 See also
7 References
8 Further reading
Marx[edit]
Main article: Marxism and religion
The quotation, in context, reads as follows (emphasis added):

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

RECAP; RELIGION + MONEY = SUPERDRUG FOR THE RIGHTEOUS BELIEVERS
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 8, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
I have the idea you live over that way. Enlighten us.
If you see things differently about China's treatment of Christians, I'd be glad to learn about it.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 8, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
The greatest service that could be rendered the Christian peoples would be to convert them to Christianity

Joseph Campbell
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 8, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
^What a hero. Maybe a thousdand times over.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 8, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
Ah! What would we be if it was not for these: Funny I am sure some of us remember when they use to use subliminal messages in movie theaters for buying popcorn and candy? For a number of years the religious theocracy has been using it included with the open messages for pushing their agendas.



Who's face is more evil?




Koch brothers propaganda
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 8, 2014 - 11:31pm PT

Sorry to be so sketchy and yet so long-winded simultaneously. If I had more time, I would explain myself more succinctly. Again, I'm not saying those who disagree are stupid, evil or anything else. I'm just giving a glimpse of why I don't think Christianity requires that you forfeit your mind.

Thank You John, that was a wonderful post!

Prolly the best ive seen.

BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 9, 2014 - 12:29am PT
Rosoide said,

. So whether one is performing service to others as a secular humanist or else in the interest of doing so in order to appease and curry favor with Jesus, it is the final results which count.

The final result is which will count. But prolly not in the way ur Think'in? Why does a secular humanist perform any service for another? Wait, before I ask that. Your writing denotes that your assumption is that Christians do things to curry favor, or look to good in Gods eyes. For instance. If I drop a $20. spot into a beggars cup, or hold the door open for a weak old lady, or slow down traffic at ampm because a heavy lady is harboring the walk from the pump to the cashier. I do these acts without a preconceived reason to forward my relationship with Christ.
Works are a sign of faith. Meaning, if faith in Gods plan is established, works will just appear.
I think good deeds are a fruit. Not a seed. Know what I mean?
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 9, 2014 - 12:53am PT
“She's the sort of woman who lives for others - you can tell the others by their hunted expression.”


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

One of my favorites.

Be wary of some of that "fruit", it can kill you.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 9, 2014 - 01:55am PT
C.S. Lewis knew Lois?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 10:09am PT
So, when I teach kids how to climb, it's because I have faith but don't know it?

It's the Childhood Catholicism as toe fungus theory. You got it for life. Even if you never thought you had it, there are no atheists - just Christians who don't know it yet.

Aside from how fantastically patronizing and moronic that idea is, that's also not a waiver Christianity affords unbelievers.

If you don't stuff Jesus into your heart explicitly, it's laps in the Fiery Lake for ye.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 10:40am PT
Christianity spread the way many memes do: it was politically expedient and good for business.

Sure, it allays fears of dying - but it also created a system of trading connections across a racially disparate empire. It unified a populace under one, official religion. It provided justification for lucrative conquest. And it granted a monopoly on human knowledge and a central, unquestioned authority.

In short, it concentrated wealth and power for those who controlled to a degree and duration that few other movements in history have matched.

History's interesting, but what matters is the present. No one can seriously argue that Christianity - of the fundy, Mormon, and Chatholica persuasions, isn't the number one enemy of civil liberties in America today.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 9, 2014 - 11:02am PT
No one can seriously argue that Christianity - of the fundy, Mormon, and Chatholica persuasions, isn't the number one enemy of civil liberties in America today.

I think it (religion, not just Christianity) is not so much a problem as a symptom. And insofar as it is a problem, and an enemy of civil liberties (in the world, not just America), it is tied with patriotism for the number one spot.

It's a strange world we live in, and killing people for religious or patriotic reasons isn't very far removed from cheering the home team and booing the visiting team.
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
May 9, 2014 - 11:30am PT
Yes, Mr. Donini, I am with you on this. America is not a Christian nation though the battle will never be won.

I offer an example of "progress."

Once upon a time (prior to American Independence), as condition of sitting in the Pennsylvania Legislature, the elected member had to sign an elaborate declaration affirming their belief in Christianity. I've read the minutes of the legislature containing this declaration with the signatures of every legislator affixed thereto. One proof of the evolution of our collective conscientiousness. At one time, no one would have given a second thought to this legal requirement. Now, this practice would not have a rat's chance in hell of "holding up in court" here.

By contrast, today in Pakistan, I suspect a requirement of belief in Islam would be common place for service in government, nay to even get a job? Islamic nations are a good 200-400 years behind the West in the evolution of their institutions to secular neutrality. We will never know in our life times if Islamic nations make the transition, or keep fighting to an internecine death.

On the other hand, I can offer a proof we are still dominated by this Christianness. I had a discussion not long ago with a high school friend. By all rights, this man should have had a career in politics and would have made an outstanding civic leader. He confessed to me that he decided to never run for office precisely because he believed that would require that he gave a least lip service to being a Christian, churchgoer. He just couldn't - and wouldn't - stoop to that hypocrisy. So he never ran for office. Our country suffers from this de facto bar to elected office. Non-believers just can't be elected to high office. So they don't even try.
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2014 - 11:42am PT
"Scary is a government that claims special audience to God's ear."...

The materialistic Americans are the stupidest people on the planet.

The atheists are given intelligence to go away from god by God himself.

The theists are given intelligence to understand God by God himself.

Whatever desire the living entity has is fulfilled by God himself.

You want a Godless society you will get it.

You want a God conscious society you will get it.

The choice is yours.

The actual absolute truth remains as it is, and your free will choice still is up to you ........
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 9, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

...God only will ask what YOU did with His Son Jesus!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 9, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
...God only will ask what YOU did with His Son Jesus!

Well, when the day of reckoning comes I hope the Lord will thank me for
paying Jesus good money to paint my house. I gave him cold Snapples, too.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 9, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
I'm still interested in the practice of Chinese Christianity.
In response to my question, Randisi said
But it is one of the accepted religions. There are a few obvious churches here in Dalian. I have met open Christians.
The Chinese recently destroyed a Christian Mega Church, Zhejiang province.
That's certainly not accepting that particular expression of religion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10794749/China-denies-declaring-war-on-Christians-after-mega-church-is-razed.html

There a lot of contradictory quotes in that article.
Repression of religion or tearing down an un-permitted building? Would the church have been able to get a permit?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
May 9, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
Anyone who believes we are a nation based on one color, creed or culture is on the wrong side of history.

 here here +1
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 9, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
Christianity spread the way many memes do: it was politically expedient and good for business.

That doesn't square with history, Tvash. Hostility to Christianity arose because existing business saw Christianity as a threat. The riots in Ephesus, recorded in Acts, give a Christian perspective, but secular Roman history shows this as well. The Christians, to the Romans, were atheists because they did not believe in the Roman gods. The history of Christianity in Armenia is similar. In fact, Christianity seems to thrive in persecution, but to become corrupted when it becomes establishment.

And yes, Rosoide, Jesus claimed exclusivity. Both then and now, that exclusivity leads to hostility. I rather doubt that anyone would have been nailed to anything for saying we should be nice to each other. I have no trouble seeing how existing, establishment, religious leaders would want to exterminate someone claiming that he alone, to their exclusion, was the sole way to salvation.

That's also why the self-sufficient and self-satisfied find Christianity so offensive. Christianity requires not only acknowledgment of personal imperfection, but of a total inability to achieve righteousness on our own acts. Who likes confessing helplessness?

Only phony Christianity tries to be popular. Real, historic, Christianity is, was, and always will be hostile to the wisdom of the world.

John

P.S. To get a little closer to the OP, Donini is correct -- The US is not, was not, and will not be a "Christian nation." The idea that we have an exclusive pipeline to God -- Father, Son or Holy Spirit -- is, quite simply, blasphemous. Show me where in the Bible any nation, other than the Kingdom of Christ, can claim that distinction.

I get particularly offended when I hear that we are a Christian nation in part because Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity as its state religion, in 301 A.D., and my fellow Armenians like to brag that we are the "first Christian nation," while they ignore Jesus, live a life indistinguishable from anyone else (at least in virtue), and actively oppose those who actually stand for Christ. It reminds me of the "Temple of the Lord" speech in Jeremiah. Actions speak louder than words. The US has taken many laudable actions over the years, but our sins belie any claim to Godliness.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 9, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
From Tony Perkins, Family Research Council

Caller:
I wanted to see if I can get your response to the members of the clergy in Charlotte that are suing for the right to perform gay marriages, saying that the ban on gay marriage infringes on their religious rights. It’s my understanding that they are a Christian organization, it’s normally the other way around, and so I’m curious to hear what you got to say about it.
Perkins: I would use that term ‘Christian’ loosely. That title is — let’s talk biblical, here’s the deal, it’s like with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act that we worked on in Mississippi and failed in Arizona and other places, here’s a test of what is a true religious freedom, a freedom that’s based on orthodox religious viewpoints. It has to have a track record, it has to come forth from religious orthodoxy.

You can have freedom to practice your religion as long as I approve of your religion.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tony-perkins-arbiter-christianity-says-pro-gay-christians-dont-have-same-religious-rights-co
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
May 9, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
go-B:

I dare you to read what the good Christian (yes he was Christian, I am not being facetious) Dostoyevsky wrote about the current state of Christianity in his extended "thought experiment" within Brothers Karamazov about the Inquisitor and how he decided, when Jesus in fact returned, that for the good of Christianity and the happiness of the good Christian masses, that Jesus needed to be immediately crucified again - before the masses learned from the returned Jesus how Christianity had been hopelessly perverted by the Christian churches (both Catholic and reformed). And let there be no mistake here: by "Christian," I mean "Christians" of your ilk.

I suspect the above was so far above your head that you will not have the intellectual firepower or curiosity to take up my bet. Write me a PM if you take up my dare; I'll be waiting for a Christian eternity, no doubt.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 9, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
DMT,

The hostility to the world's wisdom is not one of "poor, pitiful me." Rather, it is a call to bravery, and a willingness to offend the powerful in the world we see, rather than to try to conform to them.

That's one of the many reasons why I bristle when I hear nominal Christians lament that we are no longer a Christian nation. If Christians were entirely comfortable in the corridors of power in this country, something was terribly wrong.

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 9, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
That's also why the self-sufficient and self-satisfied find Christianity so offensive.

Hi John,

can you explain your above statement in more detail for me?

for example, many people including my self are self sufficient (does that mean we don't get any kind of government assistance to you?)

what does "self satisfied" mean?

does that mean not needing a religion or a god of some sort to be satisfied in life?

ok, again, thats me and a lot of other people

but then moving we, you state that such people, like me, find Christianity offensive

I think your assumption is in error, John

I believe "we" have no problem at all with Christianity or Buddhism, etc

what we do find offensive and irritating is Christians who act "me so holy", that evangelize to anyone who will listen, etc......get this difference?

klk

Trad climber
cali
May 9, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
That doesn't square with history

since you dismissed three centuries of biblical scholarship and historiography in your earlier "why i am a premillennial" post, i don't think you can now turn around and invoke those segments of it that serve your selfish needs.

sorry, dude.

TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
May 9, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
go-B.

Just going to spew Biblical quotes at us?

No guts to take up my dare?

"Incharge" is not one word, you moron. (I am quoting you go-B, three post up, before you make an editing change).

If you are going to spew, can't you at least spell?
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
May 9, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Thanks Dr. F.

I feel better now and will ignore go-B henceforth.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 9, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
Like I tried to say above, it all comes down to you and God. God sent His Son Jesus to bridge that gap! That's what the Bible say's sorry if you don't like that! :(
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
May 9, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
How many non Christian presidents have we had?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 9, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
How many non Christian presidents have we had?

Does Dick Cheney count?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
Yes, there were early Christian persecutions - how else to explain all those sword and sandals flicks?

But Paul helped create not just a church, but also a trade organization.

Once Constantine began to believe his legitimacy to power was due to his Mother's Christian God cerca 300 AD, the Christian Roman Empire - and Christianity in general, was off to the races.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
I was referring to Christianity after Constantine, but John's comment is a fair one. Why did Christianity grow before that, and in the face of persecution?

Aside from aforementioned promises of spiritual gifts, Christianity provide a community and, more importantly, a social welfare system, in an crumbling empire wracked by famine and plagues. It was a period of massive immigration to Roman cities - Christianity provided an ready made community and social safety net for those immigrants that Rome's rulers did not.

As much of Rome's inhabitants prior to 300 had their lives threatened every day by starvation and disease, the movement was apparently worth fighting and dying for. Given the sheer scale of immigration to cities at the time, the growth rate of early Christianity is understandable.

The Romans, for their part, saw it as an obvious challenge to central power, and acted as our own nation would, and does, to such a threat.

Bundymania excepted, of course.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 9, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
Sunday school paraphrased;

When you die, if you are bad person/unbeliever, the following will happen. A rather large angel with zero personality and a flaming sword, will take you to the edge of a burnig lake. The scary angel will cut off your ass with the sword and cast you into the bottomless pit to burn forever.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 9, 2014 - 03:33pm PT

Pretty darn Holy, aren't you Gobee?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 9, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
...food for thought! :)

More like a way to avoid thinking.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 9, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
NOT EVEN Norton, but forgiven yes! :)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
Chicken soup for the soul or HotPockets for the intellect?

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
Pre-Christian may frost me tits, but pre-forgiven is an idea I can get behind.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 9, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
I think your assumption is in error, John

I believe "we" have no problem at all with Christianity or Buddhism, etc

what we do find offensive and irritating is Christians who act "me so holy", that evangelize to anyone who will listen, etc......get this difference?

Thanks, Norton for your response. I see how my use of "self-satisfied" and "self-reliant" can mean something different from what I intended.

The heart of Christianity is very simple: All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures. Those who accept God's gift by believing in Jesus as their savior have eternal life. Those who do not are doomed.

Most people I know find these propositions offensive because they are exclusive, and because they require a humility that is not humanity's natural state.

I admit that I don't try to force this down people's throats, but that doesn't mean I think everyone is OK regardless of what they believe. Rather it reflects what I understand to be my job description, which is to tell the story, and to make disciples of those who wish to be such. Convicting people sufficiently to change isn't my job; that belongs to the Holy Spirit.

John
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
One of the worst things a parent of the 21st century could do is teach their children that Christian mythology is the truth.

As it would hobble them later in life, arguably it would be child abuse.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 9, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
Rather it reflects what I understand to be my job description, which is to tell the story, and to make disciples of those who wish to be such.

ah, I see you are indeed an "evangelizing" Christian, John

your job is to tell others and make disciples, pretty clear

so let me ask, do you tell and make disciples of others who don't ask you to do so?

if so, that is what "we" object to and find so irritating

however, is you confine your evangelizing only to those who ask for it, then of course we have no problem whatsoever with your "Christianity"

edit: why do you feel such a strong need to tell others, to evangelize, John?

is the reason to affirm beyond doubt you own faith? or is it to "convert" other people so they too can experience what you experience, make them feel much better about themselves, is that it?

I don't believe in any gods, so no reason at all to do so, and I also feel no need to talk to believers about all the good things my non belief has brought me, no need to convert or evangelize, because to me such thing are personal and ought to be kept that way.....

either way you respond, it is nice just to talk with you so civilly instead of our sometimes quite different political conversations, John
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
No this is not a "Christian" Nation and most of the American's who claimed to be "Christians" are NOT.
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
May 9, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
The heart of Christianity is very simple: All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures. Those who accept God's gift by believing in Jesus as their savior have eternal life. Those who do not are doomed.

Most people I know find these propositions offensive because they are exclusive, and because they require a humility that is not humanity's natural state.

You speak of humility like it's a virtue, but where is your god's humility? Obviously your god has sinned, countless more times than any human being ever has. What with all the murder, torture, self-obsession, and spiteful jealousy. Yet somehow his sh#t don't stink? Your god is a psychopathic child, magnifying glass in hand, rendering judgement unto a colony of ants: "Love me, worship me, or BURN for all eternity!"
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 9, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
so let me ask, do you tell and make disciples of others who don't ask you to do so?

I can't make a disciple who does not wish to be such, which is why I stated it the way I did. Neither do I intentionally tell someone who doesn't want to hear, but I have a loud voice sometimes.

edit: why do you feel such a strong need to tell others, to evangelize, John?

is the reason to affirm beyond doubt you own faith? or is it to "convert" other people so they too can experience what you experience, make them feel much better about themselves, is that it?

It's a logical conclusion of my faith, Norton. I can't just sit around smugly thinking "Thank God I'm saved. Too bad about all those who don't know." I can't change those who chose not to believe, but I can do something about those who've never heard.

Unfortunately, I can't assume that everyone in this country has heard, because so many think Christianity is a set of rules and regulations. I remember one climbing partner telling me that Evangelical Christianity meant that you don't have sex before you're married. He was rather shocked when I told him I was an Evangelical Christian, and what the Christian faith entailed.

I don't like advertising my faith in words because I find more often than not all I'm doing is practicing my piety before men, to be noticed by them. Jesus explicitly said not to do that. I didn't say that much at the start of this thread, other than to agree than the US is not a Christian nation, but I offered to explain why I thought an intelligent person could believe Christian doctrine, and Wade Icey asked me to do so. Otherwise, I would have kept quiet.

Finally, I, too, appreciate the civility and respect with which you have addressed me. Don't worry about the rhetoric on the political threads. I hope you know I greatly respect your intellect, and consider your presence here one of ST's great assets.

John


Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
That Christians declare all men sinners damned for eternity is humble?

OK. I'm looking at my dictionary and...

Oh wait, God declared that...the God that only Christians believe in. The followers have nothing to do with it.

Cheerist, that has got to be history's most tired dodge, as befits its most arrogant philosophy.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
I like John, too.

The religion?

I may have a few issues wit dat.

But even so, as long as Christians keep doctrine out of public policy and respect the 1st Amendment's firewall and level playing field, thas coo.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
as long as Christians keep doctrine out of public policy

This is one of the silliest pretenses of all. It just doesn't work. Just as we see every single day in just about every facet of sociopolitics.

Folks just don't want to get real about it.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
A "god" that would condemn a good person because they did not "accept" him/his son as their "savior" is not a god.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Lots of nasty gods who torture humans out there. Divine standard procedure.

The whole Christian thing gets flayed wide open when a heathen baby dies at childbirth or a pagan 5 year old gets hit by a bus.

Burn for eternity, SINNER!





We're all born dirty.

Dirty, dirty humans.

But through blood, we are cleansed.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
Then there's this:

"Here's a gift"

"No thank you"

"BURN, SINNER!!!!!!!!"

I could go on

and on

But you get the idea.

A system based on reward/punishment needs to go away.

Choice theory, baby. The way forward.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
I have no problem with other peoples' belief systems if they make them happy and lead them to productive lives.

If that system threatens people that don't comply with eternal damnation, it has some serious issues with it's credibility.
microcam

Trad climber
San Juan Capistrano. California
May 9, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
"There is a way which seems right to a man but in the end it leads to death." A proverb written and recorded along time ago but just as true today.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 9, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
I think this may cover the consensus opinion:


John
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
Such is the power of Faith - a brilliant invention itself if you think about it - but not too much.

One word: Koolaid.


Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
So, Rosoide, you have all the answers...you are right and those of us that disagree are......what? To be disregarded? I myself learn much from those that choose to share ideas. In listening we can all bring things to heart and mind that we may not have heard, known or understood before. You are so busy putting humans in boxes and catagories. Someone you disagree with may actually have a brilliant idea in another realm of thought which is why, we need to listen and not judge. (I am reminding myself at this moment:)

I am a pragmatist. Pragmatism: "a practical approach to problems and affairs. An American movement in philosophy founded by C.S. Peirce and William James and marked by the doctrines that the meaning of conceptions is to be sought in their practical bearings, that the function of thought is to guide action, and that truth is preeminently to be tested by practical consequences of belief.

Which is one of the reasons why jesus is my best friend. What he says works. If we had time I would tell you why. Maybe at a campfire.....I've lived life and tested many of the philosophies this world has to offer. I am no koolaid drinker. "Truth is preeminently to be tested by practical consequences of belief." The consequences of my belief have been wonderful. They have saved my marriage, made me a much better person and kept me from dying in a gutter from a drug over dose at a young age among many other things. My best friend said he is the truth. I believe what he said and to the best of my ability have tried to live it and he has never let me down.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 9, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
I don't like advertising my faith in words because I find more often than not all I'm doing is practicing my piety before men, to be noticed by them. Jesus explicitly said not to do that.

Thank You John, Appreciate your candor and your levelheadedness in the face of...whatever this is...

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
The God King was one of the first thing prehistoric tribes invented. The Shaman went along with the ruse so he didn't get his dwarf/psychotic ass thrown to the saber tooths.

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 9, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
impossible to respect your input Louis. get your head examined asap.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
So, Roside, you have all the answers...you are right and he rest of us are wrong.

how religulous!

My "best friends" are Scientis and Vitarius... the personifications of knowledge (science) and life. ;)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
I think our first and only Born Again president worked out pretty well, no?

I can't think of one thing I would have done differently.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
There it is again... this time in the form of "definitive conclusion."

You're falling right into the Christian religious rhetorical trap. One doesn't need a "definitive" conclusion in any "absolute" sense - only a reasonable one.

Don't let Christians, particularly fundamentalist ones, define the conversation (or the framing).

it is impossible for anyone to be "right" or "wrong"... none of us, can ever come to a definitive conclusion..."

No. When it comes to facts...

The Christians are wrong regarding Creation.
They are wrong regarding a young earth.
They are wrong when they hold that evil exists or is caused by Original Sin.
They are wrong about the Devil being real.
They are wrong about exorcism; they are wrong about evil behaviors being caused by evil immaterial ghost-spirits.
They are wrong to hold that their god, being an intervening god, will help us out if the planet ever suffers a runaway greenhouse effect (assuming he desires to help us, of course).
Etc.

Again, this is regarding facts. If the claims are in the context of narrative (story) or mythology, well that's another matter.

If you're going to have any worthy discussion, it's useful to be clear on the context. Is this about facts? mythic narratives? reasonable certainties? absolute certainities?

Millions have come to "definitive" conclusions concerning how the world works and how life works - ones that are reasonable and therefore serviceable in decision-making, policymaking, etc..

My ancestors evolved from pond scum. Chimps and humans have a common ancestor. These are beliefs. These are conclusions, even definitive ones (though not "absolute" ones in any mathematical sense, eg) - quite reasonable ones that in terms of facts deserve support and recognition as such.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
Science doesn't deal with right or wrong, just supported or unsupported.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
To a heathen, God condemning and His followers condemning are one in the same, because God is removed from the equation.

When a follower chooses to believe in the condemning - they are, in fact, responsible for it.

Those who would abhor such an injustice on their fellow man choose other beliefs.

Accountability. I believe that's also a Christian tenet, no?

Not as practiced, apparently.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
But let's forget about After Death - an land from which no human returns.

Let's rewind to NOW.

What of the Christian belief that 6% of the population - and that's 20 million people in this country alone, and a whopping 420 million worldwide, should not be allowed to marry the person they love?

Given that a loving, intimate relationship is arguably the number one predictor of human happiness, that seems like an awful lot of human misery at the hands of Jesus and his flock to me.

Hmmmm.

That one IS a bit stickier for the followers of Jesus I think. Every Christian I've ever mentioned this to on this forum dodged this one.

Hmmmm.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
Dingus, you said, "a government that has been dominated by Christians." Really, I don't know if I can agree with that statement. How do you know if a person is a jesus follower which, I think, is what a Christian should be.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
The religious flavor of our government varies a bit, but one can surely say with some authority that truly secular leadership - agnostic or atheist (there really is no difference) is a rarity.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
Rosoide, I guess you didn't read my post. My faith is Not blind. Please re read and let me know what you think. Pragmatism is not blind faith.

And you all can call me lynne in your posts....I laugh when you refer to me as she and her, like I'm not here reading all this. :)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
Rosoide, " and force their beliefs on others." Something jesus never did.

Jess sayin'....:)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
My faith is Not blind.

No, your faith is blind.

Very.
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Go away fruitcake and leave Lynn alone.

She's a beautiful soul and not worthy of your negative nonsense.

Throw your goofball crap at me instead .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Sorry, ol fluffer.

She entered this debate freely, ask her.

Why don't you pause for the cause, Sixth grader.

PS We're all beautiful souls. :)
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
There is nothing wrong with belief. Actions in this world are what counts, however. If your belief leads you to treating other homo sapien sapiens in a decent, respectful manner, I am all for it. But many faiths/beliefs teach this. None are superior to another.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
None are superior to another.

Really? Fundamentalist Christianity is not superior to fundamentalist Islam? Get real.

Beliefs have consequences. Only regarding religions do half of folks (ignorant or hypocritical political ones esp) give beliefs a free pass.
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Fruitcake you're still the coward hiding in the shadows afraid ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
There you go again, drawing down the discourse, you dipsh#t. Take a break, go take a science course first time in your life. Personally I've had enough of your science-bashing at every turn, loser. You really don't know how much damage your ilk causes culture.

And people don't call you out more often because they don't want to get down in the pigsty with you. You should be ashamed of yourself for badmouthing science and its efforts so in the way you do.

I only wish we could transport you back to the dark ages for a week or so - for some serious enlightenment.
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
Bye bye fruity .....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
If I got bent out of shape every time someone called me Matt or Pete instead of Pat - which is every time....

What would Jesas do?


HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 9, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
Evangelical Christian Texas Gov Rick Perry
Perry grew up in the United Methodist Church, and he and his family have been members of Tarrytown United Methodist Church since the 1990s (the same church that former President George W. Bush attended in Austin, Texas) until 2010 when Perry and his family began attending the large, nondenominational evangelical megachurch, Lake Hills Church that is also located in Austin.
In 2006, Perry stated that he believes in the inerrancy of the Bible and that those who do not accept Jesus as their savior will go to hell.
Perry has called himself "a firm believer in intelligent design as a matter of faith and intellect", and has expressed support for its teaching alongside evolution in Texas schools

Perry supports the death penalty.[96] In June 2002, he vetoed a ban on the execution of mentally retarded inmates.[93] As of April 27, 2014, Gov. Perry has presided over 275 executions[97]-more than any governor in U.S. History.[98]
That's a good evangelical Christian for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Perry
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
I would love to get an answer - even one, from a Christian on the gay marriage thing.

Look at all the lonely people.

All 420 million of them.

Shitdog, that's a quarter of the world's Christian population.

Wonder if 1 in 4 Christians would forgo marriage for the cause?

Wonder why my mind works like a fkn spreadsheet?
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
LOL ....

Yer killing me :-)
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
HFCS,

The KKK hides behind Christian religion. Many whack jobs do behind many religions. A man of science like yourself would know this if you were paying attention.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
The KKK hides behind Christian religion.

This makes my point exactly. Beliefs matter. The guy who tried to shoot up Jews a few weeks back (killing Christians instead) was driven by his Aryan beliefs of superiority. Because they were not deemed "religious" he was called for it. So too was Sterling over his racist beliefs.

Beliefs are holdings. For better or worse. It's time we stopped giving religious ones a free pass. Esp where they are counterfactual regarding how the world works or how life works or impinge on basic rights to life in the modern age (e.g., death to apostates).

The beliefs of the Abrahamic religions are not immaterial to everyday life like half of folks think or pretend. It's time we all got real about this so we can better deal - w greater unity - with the really big problems coming our way down the line.

.....

the religion of tech/science

This is just more religious rhetoric from the Christian religious moral majority. Zero content. Zero meaning. A last ditch effort to propagate confusion while trying to preserve some dying authority / fantasy narrative. Informed folks see through it however.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
Of course beliefs matter. For every Jimmy Carter and Martin Luther King there's a health clinic bomber and Clansman.

Any belief system that needlessly divides our species into 'us' and 'them' is not the way forward.

Christianity is imploding in America. Perhaps our countrymen are waking up to its fundamental flaw.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 10, 2014 - 12:16am PT
So here is a link for you all to think about. You who say there is no history of jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great


Generalities with no specific facts mean nothing. Why bother to post stuff that divides and causes conflict if you have no facts to support. And I mean facts, not just your interpretation of what is happening or what a person says.

Believe what you want but give others the same freedom. Also, check facts and history. If you say something, prove it. Other wise it is just spray.

Cheers, Lynne
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 10, 2014 - 12:51am PT
Constantine lived 300 years after Jesus supposedly did.

Jesus most likely existed, but the historical evidence is pretty scant there. The Jesus myth looks a whole lot like a recycled Isis/Horus myth, as well as several others - virgin birth near the solstice, hunted by a king, divinity and humanity, etc... Given the rarity of resurrection as opposed to the commonality of fish stories, I'd say existence? - probably, but divinity? - not likely.

Who cares? Each of us chooses to act only in the moment, that's all we've got to work with, not 2000 years ago. Christian or not, we choose our present morality - and we certainly don't need Jesus anymore to inform that. There are plenty of zombie-free, non-magical teachings available.

If only it ended there, but it doesn't. Such ancient nonsense, no longer necessary to provide a moral compass, instead drives actions that are harmful to others. I'm not compelled to prevent, through my voting, millions of people I'll never meet from getting married - there exists no external authority to do the compelling.
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2014 - 01:01am PT
And there's that little detail about his mom being a virgin...

That's right "The Virgin Mary" gives birth.

None of you mundane people can do this.

Only the saktyavesa avatara can do this.

The saktyavesa avatara is far beyond your mundane understanding and silly little man made limited instruments to capture.

Fruity wants to send me to dark ages lol all while you hide in the dark shadows.

Who's really in the dark.

Come out into the light and you'll "see" the saktyavesa avatara .....
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 10, 2014 - 01:02am PT
Are All Wrong has been the norm rather than the exception throughout most of human history.

I find this pretty amusing. Throughout the history of mankind, people have repeatedly said, "This can't be explained, so it must be the work of God!" Later is was explained. No, boats of the Gods don't carry the sun through the underworld every night.

Yet today, people are still saying, "This can't be explained, so it must be the work of God!"

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 10, 2014 - 01:25am PT
"This can't be explained, so it must be the work of God!"

Or the devil, Donini must be possessed, to be climbing so hard at an advanced age.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 10, 2014 - 01:36am PT
If a duck can post or theologize , can it smoke and walk...?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 10, 2014 - 02:27am PT

Any belief system that needlessly divides our species into 'us' and 'them' is not the way forward.

After reading this thread. Forum. You and Fruity are fine examples!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 10, 2014 - 08:07am PT
Gays. Any Christians want to address that one? I asked you already Blu.

I can wait.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 10, 2014 - 09:14am PT
Locker loves you.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
May 10, 2014 - 09:40am PT
Go-b can't pass up an opportunity to proselytize . . .
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 10, 2014 - 09:49am PT

Me So Holy.......isn't that right Gobee?

you just have to keep proving why people hate Christians like you, but not Christianity
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 10, 2014 - 10:00am PT
Christianity would be great if it wasn't for all those damn Christians.

-Warren G. Hardi..... No wait...that was me.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 10, 2014 - 10:07am PT
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2014 - 10:19am PT
For a being a so called scientist you definitely always fail/ed in logic and reason because of your incessant ridged conform to only black and white.

Dr Fail ......
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2014 - 10:29am PT
only a cult would dictate such a requirement."...

Look at all you stupid sheep following orders from your moron 1% superiors all day long.

Obey obey obey.

Aldous Huxley was right .....
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2014 - 10:38am PT
Yeah you're definitely a stupid nutcase and coward for sure and I love to say it .....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2014 - 10:49am PT
So Werner, I'm curious, since you're not a follower of Jesus, are you going to hell?

Or maybe better, will you be in the same heaven as christians?
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Bruce

I'm in in supertopo hell!!

WTF I've got a weirdo anonymous pussy stalker loon glanton running his nutcase mouth.

And you're worried about hell ....

:-)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Dude, you win me over every time....

:0)




Ahhhh f*#k it, I'm converting to Islam.
WBraun

climber
May 10, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Bye bye stupid coward.

See ya in hell.

Oh wait we're already there .....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 10, 2014 - 11:31am PT
"Calling all Christians to the Gay Customer Service Desk. Jesus, pick up any rainbow courtesy telephone."
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 10, 2014 - 11:44am PT
If this silence goes on for another 2000 years I'm going to start to get suspicious.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 10, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
If this silence goes on for another 2000 years I'm going to start to get suspicious.

Be sure and post back to us then.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 10, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
Tvash
I already told you. You can marry anyone you like. It's not between me and you. It's between you, your boyfriend, and God. You can marry a dog if you want (it's com'in next). Did you hear, some guy wants to marry his computer. Think his name was Fruity?
Psilocyborg

climber
May 10, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
"So American"

If vain was a color to paint in you
Your heart would be the color blue
Be a gradient from there
Until your body met your hair
Which remained a silver

You are the one they call Jesus Christ
Who didn't know no rock and roll
Just a mission made of guns that they give boys in Vietnam
In a heart that always told you

There's a madness in us all
There's a madness in us all

So
Who wrote the rules?
Who wrote the rules?
Who wrote the rules?

They said
Every one of you will never try to lend a hand
When the police men don't understand

Boys, all you boys
Think you're so American
Girls, all you girls
Yeah you're so American

He may not be born of this land
But he was born of this world
He was born of all the mothers
And the colors of our brothers
And the love that was started

You are the one they call Jesus Christ
Who may not know no rock and roll
There may not be a heaven
Or a place in which to send ya
But you know in the end

There's a madness in us all
There's a madness in us all
There's a madness in us all
There's a madness in us all

So
Who wrote the rules?
Who wrote the rules?
Who wrote the rules?

They say
Every one of you will never try to lend a hand
When the police men don't understand

Boys, all you boys
Think it's so American
Girls, all you girls
Yeah you're so American

There's two eyes for every one of us
But somebody got there first and took them all

There's two eyes for every one of us
But somebody got there first and took them all

Man, oh man
You think it's so American
Man, oh man
Yeah you're so American

Man, oh man
You think it's so American
Man, oh man
Yeah you're so American

There's two eyes for every one of us
But somebody got there first and took them all

There's two eyes for every one of us
But somebody got there first and took them all
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 10, 2014 - 03:22pm PT

GOD is not the only one "Floating"...
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 10, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
It's called Thread drifting. What happened to the discussion?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 10, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
What happened to the discussion?


We're certainly a Nation influenced by Christianity.

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 10, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
What could be more christian than war ?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 10, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
Meanwhile the top baby names in the US
Boys
#1 Noah
#2 Liam
#3 Jacob
#7 Michael
#10 Daniel

Girls not quite so biblical.
Not one name from the bible (as far as I know). After all it's a male dominated religion. Just ask the College of Cardinals.

Then my son was Adam
From ancient Hebrew ha adamah which means "ground" or "earth"
Also from the Quran (borrowed from Hebrew)
And an ancient Assyirian king Adamu, perhaps 2000 years BCE
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 10, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
It really isn't between me, my boyfriend, and God.

God doesn't vote.

People do.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 10, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
gender orientation is not something one chooses

Really?! Are you suggesting our sexual feeling or attraction is rooted in the material body? This is materialist! Feelings (like hunger, thirst, love, hate, grief, joy, lust) are sourced by the soul, not the body. How could matter be the source of feelings, otherwise sentience or so-called qualia - that's just nuts.

As a Christian, I wouldn't believe matter or material (body) could generate sentience or feeling (e.g., lust) - not ever - till it was proven in a lab with measurements and data and till I could see it with my own eyes. The whitecoats aka beaker boys aren't even close to that. It's true, just ask them.

It's ghost-spirit that thirsts and hungers. It's the ghost-spirit that grieves and rejoices. It's the ghost-spirit that lusts and it's the ghost-spirit - certainly not base matter - that chooses whether that lust feeling is going to roll homo or hetero.

Matter doesn't feel, only divine soul or spirit does. Read up on dualism (incl the so-called Hard Problem).

Am I right or wrong here?

Also read up on free will. The God of Moses and Abraham gave us the power of free will. So it's entirely up to us to choose amongst the paths of good and evil in this life. Shall it be the righteous path or not? Regarding homo orientation, read Leviticus. States God's Law on the matter very plainly. Could not be more plain.

The Law is pretty clear since it's so straight-forward.



Once again, how could matter generate feelings? Whether it's joy or grief or love or hate or hunger or thirst or lust (homo or hetero). So again, clearly this is the purview of the ghost (spirit) of the body that has free will. So what will it be, good or evil. The God of Adam and Abraham gives us the choice.

Matter doesn't feel. Mind and its thoughts and feelings are independent of the brain, ultimately. Brain only calculates. Brain only interfaces between environment and divine spirit. Love and hate, like ideas and thoughts, are of the spirit, not the body; they are 100% spiritual. Spiritual. The Bible says so. Church Authority says so. History says so.

Those who believe otherwise, the materialists, are deluded. Materialism is the devil's doing. As matter-material could never give rise to love or hate, joy or grief - let alone that sexual thing - this is really all so evident, so plain. Material scientists repent! as long as you're on this side of the grass, it's not too late!!

Am I right or wrong here?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 10, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
You see how Abrahamic religions make a mess of it.

It's time we questioned these ancient beliefs - all of them. It's time we threw out all the outdated ones that are (a) counterfactual or else (b) retro or stifling regarding basic human rights.

The sooner the modern zeitgeist - backed by science and modernity-informed morality - takes hold amongst all the cultures of the world, the better for us all.

.....

Sam Harris on the illusion of free will (it's the best out there)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

Note the likes/dislikes ratio, quite revealing and quite positive for such an existentially penetrating, culturally shocking, if not depressing (at first blush) subject.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 10, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
It's not unfair at all to pin the lion's share of support for anti gay measures and campaigns- particularly monetary support, on Christian organizations. Follow the money.

In 2012 four State level anti-gay initiatives were defeated. They were funded by $40 millions dollars - every single dollar of which came from Christian organizations.

Nope. Not unfair at all.

Yeah, the non-religious hate on gays, too. Put the money that fuels that hate at the ballot box comes from only one place: Christians.

When called on it, they invariably all say the same thing: Blame God, not me.

I wasn't aware God made campaign donations.

Gotta ski up Glacier Peak. The Sun - the real one - is returning.

WBraun

climber
May 10, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
I should buy a LARGE capacitor and electrically charge and connect it up to the metal toilet seat in fruitys house to discharge whenever his moist butt lowers down to make contact.

Then maybe he'll wake up to whatever he's trying to rant against ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 10, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
Anything less than 1,000,000 microfarads and 100V wouldn't even get me to bat an eyelash let alone fart. So good luck with that. ;)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 10, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
Rosoide, so after reading all these posts, especially this last one, I pretty much believe you are Lois, LEB and you are back here again.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 10, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Rosoide,

you're saying (a) our genetics determines our physiology? and (b) our genetics (by way of our physiology) generates our (sexual) feelings?

How can matter - which, at base, is just atoms and molecules - generate feelings? Feelings like love, joy, compassion. In addition to a feeling of sexual attraction. That sounds pretty incredible to me.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 10, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
How can matter - which, at base, is just atoms and molecules - generate feelings?

you get

hungry

tired

lonesome

and horny

Don't ya?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 10, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
Rosoide, I'm sorry to hear about what you are going through and facing. This place can get really rough and tumble, really negative, if you continue to post here please don't personalize anything. Best of luck with your results.

Hey, since you're new and so you know, I'm as much a physiologist/ materialist as you are sounds like, I was just playing the devils advocate there for awhile, I suppose role playing and asking myself once again... what it feels like to be a Christian supernaturalist (cf: bat).

Again, best of luck to you.
XOXO
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 10, 2014 - 09:35pm PT

May 6, 2014 - 11:49am PT
I will carry the cross myself!

Moose

I'll put it on YouTube.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 10, 2014 - 09:52pm PT

I do believe, however, that we are more and more becoming a better educated society wherein we are learning that gender orientation is not something one chooses.

Oh contrair' scientificly, of the hundreds I have met and delt with. I know atleast two dozen that CHOOSE to go one way, and then the other. And if their were only one. That would refute ur arguement.
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 10, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
How can matter - which, at base, is just atoms and molecules - generate feelings? Feelings like love, joy, compassion. In addition to a feeling of sexual attraction. That sounds pretty incredible to me.

Who are you? And what have you done with Fruity?

I'm Start'in to think ur LEB
BB



Edit: oh i see now.

Rosoide, my sincere condolence also. My brother is facing somewhat the same scenario.
BTW, how old are you?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 10, 2014 - 10:31pm PT

Some people claim to be bisexual and state that they can, in fact, go either way. Perhaps they are. I will take them at face value.

I'm not proposing 50/50's. people that are jus very sexual, and will take everything they can get.. I'm talkin, people that Loved one way, then, all of asudden Hated it..

Ur talkin genetics. i may be talkin semantics? I will say, it is put on their plate. And brought to their awareness through evolution. Be it genetics, or societal.

But REGARDLESS, don't predict how i will vote before I close the curtain.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 10, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
Hey Rosoide,
Hope you have some better news, and peace.
Clink
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 10, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
Rosoide, why would you gather that I did not like Lois? I am praying for your life challenges. Peace, lynne
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 10, 2014 - 11:20pm PT

This whole thing does suck big time but we don't get much choice in these sorts of things.

It does suck BIGTIME! I've lost alot of friends as of late. And to lose my little brother at the age of 34, SUCKS bigtime!!!... For me

But I know it doesn't have to for the sufferer. IF they know where their going..

Which Leeds us back to choice. For the Homosexual, if they are atheist or religious, homosexualality isn't concuritive to either. Not by way of evolution nor God.

But for the evolutionary step. I thank the "Gays" for ushering in the sensitivity of man. Seems like "OldSchool" mans comfort was being brazen? Or emotionless.

Which is Queer!!!
BB

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 11, 2014 - 12:23am PT
60 posts in two days no prior history. you couldn't possibLEB more obvious. why not be honest for once?



what's up sully? low tech misfit. Silicon Valley Casualty?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 01:40am PT
^^^^ either way, it's Satan talkin
John M

climber
May 11, 2014 - 01:48am PT
Here is the irony of the whole thing. LEB is always first "recognized" not by the detractors but rather by the people who actually like her.

nope.. not true..



good luck with the surgery.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 11, 2014 - 02:04am PT
best wishes for your surgery lois.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 02:08am PT
I'm going to get punched in the face for this.... Sexual behavior is conditioned until science proves otherwise. Take, for example, liking big butts, big boobs, muscle babes, skinny goths, or take kink, or what you might call perversions; Are those genetic programs or behaviors?
I just do drive by posts. It's rhetorical. Think want you want. I'll wait for science.

....and f*#k the bible and all the cults that worship it's lies.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 11, 2014 - 04:29am PT
....and f*#k the bible and all the cults that worship it's lies.

Sierra hillbilly talk.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 11, 2014 - 05:05am PT
I'm going to get punched in the face for this.... Sexual behavior is conditioned until science proves otherwise. Take, for example, liking big butts, big boobs...

Though not the popular idea, I agree with Flop on this. Preferences that are socially and environmentally conditioned and induced is closer to the truth than genetics. This is my take from the GBL's I know and my opinion after reading the published scientific report on the original , INAH 3 "gland" study. Bad science.

Sex, religion, politics, science... most people believe what they choose to.

go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 11, 2014 - 09:11am PT
It seems all we care about is grab @ss...



...than turning to the God Who Loves us!


Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 11, 2014 - 10:54am PT
Locker, TRUE - It's right there in the Old Testament. I'd really like to speak directly with Yahwa, who shall be known at the LORD. I would not be afraid to call him out on a number of points.

Donni, FACT we are a Christian Nation. It is woven into the fabric of this civilization in so many ways. If you read a Christain bible cover to cover it really help sort out what is what.

Fortunately I think we are moving into a new age of reason, where people can get educated and think for themselves. An age of observation and questions rather than solving confusions with faith in odd stories.


If you watch TV or consume media it might seem like a major part of the country is going Christian crazy, that is the "freak show" lens that nets eyeballs for advertisers. Sensible people are non-news items.


EDIT: I do respect my many Christian friends who have found comfort in Jesus. A man who would be dismayed at what his work has become.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 11, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Rosoide, you're LEB?

.....

Despite Christianity and Islam, and their feet on the brakes of progress, the world's modernizing...


Michael Sam gets picked in the draft, and then the whole world sees an NFL player kiss his boyfriend on TV.

Christian nation? How about... cosmopolitan nation.

:)
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 11:16am PT
This is a rebel nation of protest against religion and monarchies. Freedom from religion is how it is phrased in the constitution.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 11, 2014 - 11:47am PT
This is a rebel nation of protest against religion and monarchies. Freedom from religion is how it is phrased in the constitution.

+1000
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 12:52pm PT

. Freedom from religion is how it is phrased in the constitution.

WRONG!

-1001
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
Freedom OF religion was a blockbuster concept in 1776 an era of state approved religions worldwide. It mean't the freedom to worship ANY religion or NO religion without fear of persecution from the state. Remember....Christianity is just one of many belief systems worldwide.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 11, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Sullly,
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

:)

.....

Sullly deleted her post, it read...

"Our nation worships tech and the technocrats. Techies? Christians? Same religion, different name with different set of males running it."

Techies. Christians. Same religion? Nah.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one person to dissolve the political bands Which have connected them with another and To assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, That among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It's obvious that The Founders started this country with Intelligent Design in mind!
And the wording Thoroughly points to the bible. The words "religious freedom" are presented when the act of Oaths when elected included the name Jesus Christ. So the "freedom" allowed any name to be used.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
1. Nature's God not man's god.
2. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

Thusly, hence and thereby : "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.[9]"

You're oblivious.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 11, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
You know it's a nation founded by Protestants trying to escape oppresion from larger more oppressive protestants; Catholic Church, Church of England, etc.

That they needed to escape from a power that was trying to enforce a state religion, by puninsment if necessary, is a part of the very foundation of the USA as an independant country.


If the Catholic Church of 1400's had not become so corrupt as to drive Martin Luther to start the whole Protestant movement with Lutheranism, if the Church as it was stayed true to Christ's teachings then the entire world would be a very different place.

I think the crux was when Pope Leo, the Medicci, allowed good wealthy Catholics to buy their way out of sinning. Luther was insenced by this as well as the oppulence of St. Peter's Cathedral.


I think a Donnini Pope would be a good move.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 11, 2014 - 03:36pm PT

I think a Donnini Pope would be a good move.

Stupid, but a complexly and completely new religion based on Werner's beliefs might be considered. Who should be on the short list of the ordained to proselyte his faith?

All are stupid and fall short in general of glory because they are stupid.
W1:1
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 03:38pm PT

1. Nature's God not man's god.
2. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

1. Aren't you a part of nature ?
2. No laws respecting any one certain religion.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
May 11, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
Don't want to try too hard (speak for everyone) ..

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]




































gordon ranch bump
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 11, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
What's interesting is that some posters on this thread say God this and God that and Christians this and Christians that...as if they knew the mind of God and other human beings. Basically some posters are simply putting their thoughts and suppositions on a God they don't know and people they've never met and then placing their opinions in a box they label God or Christian.

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
May 11, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
A Predominantly Christian group of people ran away to a Better life and now a predominantly non Christian group of people are uncomfortable because they don't want today's Christians to use that fact to be made to feel like the Catholics treated the Christians at the time. I'm a Christian but I don't want to be made to feel that way either as I don't want the US brand of Christianity shoved down my throat either.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 11, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
I believe in the Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, and Santa.

They are real. Therefore god must be as well.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 11, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
Well you've got to admit rlf, they've got a pretty good track record. :)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
^^^^Lynne look close, you'll notice that most of the bashers are x-catholics. Fallen presumably because they were unable to "do" what the church required them to "do" inorder to know and be inline with the catholic God. No intimate relationship ever occurred. All negative information and bashing becomes their very own religion. Otherwise, if it really didn't matter, they really wouldn't care.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 11, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
God this and God that and Christians this and Christians that.
Christians believe in both testaments of the bible.
Although there are thousands of contradictions in the bible, many tenets are consistent. Which of course is logically inconsistent.
Ergo, there is a large consensus of Christian belief regarding jesus, god and acceptable human behavior.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 11, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
you'll notice that most of the bashers are x-catholics.
have you taken a poll? Aren't you also bashing a particular christian religion?
Christians have shed more blood among themselves than all the wars with Islam put together.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 11, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
Right on, Locker! Agree, I think.

And here's a total thread drift ......I miss Blitzo. Yesterday going thru pictures has put him in mind and heart as well as others who are gone from our present lives.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 04:18pm PT

Although there are thousands of contradictions in the bible, many tenets are consistent.

Sheeez. OK Satan!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 04:21pm PT

have you taken a poll? Aren't you also bashing a particular christian religion?

Yes.
No. I'm speaking from factual scientific knowledge.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 11, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
either you're a troll, being sarcastic, or more likely haven't got a grain of reason in your head.
I'll be generous and for the time being assume you're being sarcastic.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
either you're a troll, being sarcastic, or more likely haven't got a grain of reason in your head.
I'll be generous and for the time being assume you're being sarcastic.

I was thinking the same of you.

Thousands of contradictions? Com'on Man!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 04:56pm PT

I dare say that NO ONE knows the mind of God...

Surely we can't handle the entire mind of God. But Jesus did say, if you know My Word, then you surely know My Father who sent Me.

Although we might not comprehend what's in Gods Dark Matter. He thoroughly lays out what's in a Dark Heart..
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
BlueBlocr has a few screws loose. Did he just try to use science? Christianity is the sworn enemy of science. Is he daft?
The constitution was written by people with real knowledge of Christian Religious Witch Trials, Christian Religious Wars and Christian Religious Dark Ages lasting 1000 years.
BluBlocr and his ilk are barely out of the dark ages and they are fighting to take us back to before the Age of Reason.


John M

climber
May 11, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
Christianity is the sworn enemy of science.

thats like saying all Muslims are radicals. Some Christians have their heads screwed on too tight, but not all of them. Most of the ones I know have a deep respect for Science.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
I speak of Christanity.. You speak of individuals. People are multifaceted and religion is humanistic in that it must accept the views of its practitioners or fade. No Christians today would survive the Christianity of a few hundred years ago. That's progress. Humanistic progress.
Could you stomach a Hindi society? A Muslim one? A Jewish one? Zoroastrian? I doubt it. Most of us think that American Muscular Christianity is an embarrassing pride in anti-intellect, anti-science, anti-reason and anti-progress. Most modern american Christians support wars. Not all individuals but as a group. Justify all you will. Tell me who you are with and I will tell you who you are. Actually it's " dime con quien andas y te dire quien eres".
John M

climber
May 11, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
no.. not as a group.. that is just your exposure to what the media puts out there. like most things, the media reports the fringe. not the mainstream. Even mainstream leadership within the Christian community has a wide variation in what it accepts as truth.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
Hey Flipper,
Are you x-catholic? I'm taking a poll. This is the science i am rendering.

Oppose science? Science is my tool, I use it everyday. It's God the Creators pet.
Why should I be afraid?

Should I chalk you up as x-catholic?
John M

climber
May 11, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
how about easing up on the x catholic stuff. it doesn't prove anything.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 11, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
"Christianity" "Science"

Media generalizations.

FACT: Darwin was a Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin#Religious_views



Twisted words, misunderstandings and generalizations as facts perpetuate discusion.

Truth, plain and simple, understanding, ends discusion.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
No history of Catholicism in my family. My folks were non-practicing Protestants of some kind. I was exposed to the horrors of Protestantism and Catholicism in the American South and South America and, of course, History.

So, the pope, Jesus, Abraham and the virgin of Guadalupe all represent the same lunacy to me. The Bible is a big fat lie. Without childhood indoctrination religion would die. Religion is racism at its core. If not then why does Christianity keep dividing and dividing into thousands of sects unable to agree. Jesus only unites people in Battle.

Science is the term for a method of proving repeatable experiments to understand our world.
Christianity is just another cult for controlling people.

And if BluBlocr is a Christer against x-Catholics then isn't that just another example of religious hate?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
Sorry John.
Not meaning any offense to you if you are one. I know that there are some followers of Christ within the church. But I have been keeping tabs on how many of the loudest bible denouncers around here are in fact x-catholic. That's all.

"The only way for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing"
Just heard it on the radio.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
And yet it moves.- Galileo Galilei (attributed)

"…to abstain completely from teaching or defending this doctrine and opinion or from discussing it... to abandon completely... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing.

— The Inquisition's injunction against Galileo, 1616.[60]

Christianity= Enemy of Science

It matters not if Darwin professed belief or Galileo dismissed Kepler or if Washington was a deist. Because progress, bitches.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
I will skewer the Bible. Starting with Abraham. He was a murdering, genocidal cult leader using God to justify the killing of whole cities and his own child.

Psycho! Own your book or stfu.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 11, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
The Bible Is God's Word
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/90-323/?term=90-323

The only way we can know God and His will is to have it given to us in a way that is unmistakable. And God has chosen to do that in a book, the Bible.

...yup!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 05:57pm PT

And if BluBlocr is a Christer against x-Catholics then isn't that just another example of religious hate?

I don't hate anyone. No matter what label you put on them.

I'm only recognizing and pointing at a pattern.

Can I say that your holding a lot of hate toward religions and maybe even Jesus?
Religions I can understand. But what's wrong with Jesus?
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
Skully,
President Obama of the United States. Not Nigeria. He ( we) has sent military, intelligence and law enforcement. The President and Secretary of State have given support. Do you think that it's some Rambo operation that Obama needs to do alone? Where do you get your propaganda? ( a right wing religious channel perhaps?)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 11, 2014 - 06:08pm PT

I will skewer the Bible. Starting with Abraham. He was a murdering, genocidal cult leader using God to justify the killing of whole cities and his own child.

Flippy, are you jus spouting or are you interested in the truth?
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 11, 2014 - 06:09pm PT
jules winfield likes the good book
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
Your so-called 'truth'? From your book? Please. Fancy Creation Mythology isn't my thing.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 11, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
hey! time to see how this thread's been doing.







...








Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
You guys are just nuts.
Let me make some hypotheses

1. You are a victim of Childhood Indoctrination.
2. You believe that your religion is the "one true religion".
3. Facts, History and Science cannot influence your beliefs.
4. You accept religious authoritarianism.
5. The term 'Creation Mythology' pushes your button.
6. You have special insight into Abrahams murderous acts.

How am I doing? I've got more.

7. You know the Q'uran is not the word of God.
8. You think that Zeus was a fantasy.
9. You aren't exactly comfortable with a Palestinian Jew as the One and Only son of God.
10. You aren't a pacifist.

If I didn't get 100% then I bet I got a 90%

I can go on all day.

And you should all be Mormon because Jesus visited America recently and gave them the reins.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 11, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
Flip flop, do you need a hug from Jesus?
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
Lol, thanks Anita. Maybe some hippy man love would fix me. ( I'd wash your feet, tho)

I think that I haven't gotten over the Dark Ages and Witch Burning and the Christian Wars. Poor saps.
John M

climber
May 11, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
For you flip flop

[Click to View YouTube Video]
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
May 11, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
Jim,

You may have surpassed the all time record for the number of post, in the the time it has been on the Taco. Good job!

Took a few young guns to my old haunt for many years. They got pretty worked on a few 5.10/5.11 old school classics. It was fun, showing them around. ( I feel pretty worked as well). It was 80F and very few black flies.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 11, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
What do you do instead of attending to the African girl outrage?
you're a somewhat behind on the news.
16 April The day after the kidnapping Nigeria said the girls had been released
17 April locals including some parents went into the jungle looking for their girls.
18 April the UK offers help. The US offers help about the same time.
A senior State Department official also said Friday that the U.S. offered help "back in April, more or less right away."

"We didn't go public about it because the consensus was that doing so would make the Nigerians less likely to accept our help,"

6 May Michelle starts #BRINGBACKOURGIRLS

Until mid last week Nigeria continued to refuse US and UK offers to help.
9 May US and UK counter terrorism people are on the ground.

The Nigerian Army very likely didn't want our help as they are well known to have been committing atrocities of their own.

your outrage is better directed towards Boko Haram and Nigerian PM Goodluck Johnathan (Christian)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/10/nigeria-kidnapped-girls_n_5302472.html
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
Thanks John, I've often suspected the same. I may need an intervention or exorcism or something ( in a curvy brunette) to heal my sickness.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 11, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 11, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
When Collins kisses his boyfriend on the field of play you can compare him to Tebow crossing himself or whatever religious demonstration he does. Otherwise you are irrelevant...again.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
Cute cartoon but....

1. I can't remember any genocides by the gays. ( Sparta notwithstanding)
2. No Gay Bible calling religion a sin.
3. No gay crusades.
4. No gay Dark Ages
5. No Gay inquisition.
6. Hard to kill in the name of unicorns but oh so easy to kill in the name of God.
7. No Gay cult.
8. No never ending gay wars.
9. Tebow is a dumb wanker so he will be a preacher.

Blu I answered your false assumption that I was an x catholic.
Your turn; Were you indoctrinated to the Bible as a child? ( Your pattern recognition is clearly flawed. How's mine?)
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
John M writes:
no.. not as a group.. that is just your exposure to what the media puts out there. like most things, the media reports the fringe. not the mainstream. Even mainstream leadership within the Christian community has a wide variation in what it accepts as truth.

Last sentence first. If Christians can't agree on truth among themselves what gives them the right to indoctrinate children and push political agendas?

And this is from an Evangelical Christer website. Notice how the Christians support war exactly as Fox defines it. It's why we call you all sheeple. What happened to turning the other cheek?

Quote:
Most evangelical leaders still support the war in Iraq and want the United States to “stay until the job is done,” according to a survey released Monday.

Even those who say the invasion of Iraq was a mistake based on faulty intelligence believe that it would be wrong to now leave, according to the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE)’s February 2008 Evangelical Leaders Survey.

“We should not have gone in,” said one respondent, who was only identified as a denominational CEO by the NAE. “But we are going to need to stay in long enough to prevent chaos and to stabilize the country.”

Other evangelical leaders insisted the war is just, President Bush was right in his decisions, and the United States should stay the course.

“Iraq represents that existential threat we have from global Islamic Jihadists,” responded another unidentified leader. “We must defeat it in Iraq, Afghanistan and then act preemptively to destroy it wherever it emerges.”

Still others said they have no opinion about the start of the war, but believe that the United States cannot now just leave.

“Most evangelicals in America subscribe to the theological position called ‘Just War Theory,’ that it is morally justified to go to war under certain conditions,” explained Leith Anderson, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, in a statement.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 11, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
Iraq represents that existential threat we have from global Islamic Jihadists
As proclaimed by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Rice.
Therefore it must be true
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 11, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
Christ(ofer) really loves you. Like really really loves you. You.
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Hi High T. I enjoy your posts and agree with your reasoning. Good man.

Did I win?
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 12, 2014 - 10:07pm PT

...what could we do without Jesus?
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
Believe what you want flip flop..

I grew up in a very serious Christian family and I can tell you other then a few basics, Christians are not a unified homogenous group. "Christian" is mostly just a label and its primary belief is a belief that Jesus was the son of God. That isn't generally up for debate, but its meaning certainly is. Some people who call themselves leaders want people to think its homogenous, because that gives them political power. But it is not. I have been in numerous situations where churches split because of differences in beliefs.

Both my parents take their faith seriously and would consider themselves to be conservative Christians, , but my dad votes mostly republican and my mother votes mostly democrat. They often laugh that they cancel each others votes out. I know that this also happens in many Christian families. There are of course families who tend to vote together. My brothers family is that way. They are mostly staunch Texas republicans though they did not vote for McCain or Romney. They just didn't vote for President in those elections. My sister and her husband also mostly vote the same. They would also call themselves conservative Christians. They mostly vote democrat.


So you go right ahead and continue to try and put a big fat label on Christianity, and I will continue to tell you that you are mistaken. Are there trends? certainly,.. but it is not an exact science.

I believe it is a big mistake to label people. Labeling can alienate people, making change even more difficult.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
I believe it is a big mistake to label people
Individuals can be labeled and should be when their actions are destructive to society.
When religions become destructive to society they should be held accountable for their actions, not their beliefs.
To take an extreme example the Branch Davidians. FDLS polygamists with child brides coerced by their parents.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
I agree that labels can be used, I just also believe that they are sometimes too readily used because its easier to do rather then try and understand a complex subject.

Republicans are for war. well, sort of

Liberals are spend spend spend.. well.. they sort of used to be but have shifted from that for the most part.

Oh wait, Obama is spending like crazy.. well yes.. thats part of how you get out of a recession. But doesn't that mean he is a spend spend spender? yes.. but that isn't always bad. Just as sometimes we do need to go to war.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 12, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
Agree John M.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
It's not any kind of science. It's sheer lunacy and sadly you are just another victim of childhood indoctrination. Your words aren't coherent. Sorry. Your fancy creation mythology is a lie. A big fat hate-filled lie. Nothing personal of course. Ignorance isn't a crime, just a shame. Willfull ignorance is something else entirely. That is why you can't accept facts but readily embrace imaginings from a book of known lies. Again, it sounds harsh, but the real crime is religion and the ignorant hate that it pushes on innocent children. You've burdened yourself with labels about yourself.

What percentage would you guess that Jesus is the Son of God?( as an estimate of probability?)
Follow up: whose Christianity is more correct, yours, your moms or your dads? If it divides families what good is it?

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
John M
Now I understand you better. Fair enough
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 12, 2014 - 11:22pm PT

Individuals can be labeled and should be when their actions are destructive to society.

What about when ur proud to be of a label? Joe Montana was proud to be called a 49'er. Obama is proud to be called president. The only thing I'm proud of is being a brother in Christ. I'll take that label everyday! Hell, I'm even think'in of tattooing it on my forehead, if I didn't think it would send me there.
Idont think Christians should learn everything from one preacher. Or one church. Decifering and understanding where the differences lie between the different sects can only strengthen the whole body of Christ. After all God is in every church, He jus blesses some more than others.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
I know some fine Christians/Muslims/Buddhists and they are OK with my atheism. They have a right to their beliefs even if I think they are a bit deluded. Do Christians really believe jesus ascended to heaven? It's OK with me if they do. Some people need mysterious explanations for the unknowns in this world. I don't.
A couple of them are PhD scientists and engineers and excellent at it. I can't reconcile that belief with reality but if they can, OK. It's actions that matter.
Possibly they pick and choose which parts of their religion they want to believe. The great religions of the world have some good moral principles. It's individuals that make a mockery of the principles.

I'd rather not think of anybody by a label, self proclaimed or not.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
That is why you can't accept facts but readily embrace imaginings from a book of known lies.

This flip flop is why I think that you too readily jump to labels. You don't know me. You claim you don't understand what I am saying, but then you decide that I believe in some book.

For your information, the last time I visited my family, I challenged their preacher and was labeled a heretic by the preacher and parts of my family. Do you know what a heretic is?
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
They have a right to their beliefs even if I think they are a bit deluded.

And they would think you are deluded too.

So what is the truth? Since both sides see each other as deluded.

You see how this goes?

This why the absolute truth is so important although modern science completely rejects anything to do with such a thing as "Absolute Truth" ....
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
We should heed the implicit warning from the Muslim countries who've been taken over or cowed by religious extremism.
After all our once noble (not sarcasm) Republican party has been hijacked by religious fundamentalists.
Which is precisely what the First Amendment warns us about. Keep religion out of government. Respect others' religions. We ignore that wise advice at our peril.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
You and I will never agree on that one Werner. There are no absolute truths. There are facts and physical laws. There are beliefs. There are even profoundly held beliefs. Mine and yours are diametrically different. Neither of us is likely to persuade the other. Neither of us needs the other's belief system to lead a meaningful and moral (with a few lapses I'm sure) life.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 12, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
and with that it's Sayonara for the night.
Fred
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
Uh? Really?
Try this: 'Heretic' is a label that religious authoritarians use to threaten their followers with the eternal wrath of god. It is a threat of eternal violence and oppression if you don't blindly follow dogma. It is also a term used to justify burning innocent people at the stake.

You keep making my points for me.

Werner, The difference is that religion is constantly proved to be wrong but planes fly because science.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
their followers

nope… wrong again..
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
No you're wrong. I can't be a heretic because I dismiss the concept as hate speech. Or are you an infidel? I'm not. Nor am I a sinner, a gentile or the devil. I refuse to accept religious labels of hate. Not like you.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
I can't be a heretic because I dismiss the concept as hate speech.

you are missing my point. You labeled me a believer of a certain kind. one who follows a certain book. I showed you that you were mistaken. My own family believes that I am a heretic because I don't accept the bible as the inerrant word of God. But you want to jump to conclusions about me because you see an enemy out there and want to smash it.
John M

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
I refuse to accept religious labels of hate. Not like you.

you edited your post.

I don't accept that I am a heretic. That is my families opinion, not mine.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
but planes fly because science.

LOL OK :-)

So do ducks, birds, insects and planes etc etc, because the laws of nature allow them .....
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 12, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
You haven't answered a single question. Try this one? Is there such a thing as a heretic?

I'm all about nature. It's people's fancy dogma that makes me shake my head. Are any of nature's laws explained in any religion? ( Buddha notwithstanding as he was a man and claimed no divinity)

Hey Werner, just to put a face to it, that used to be me on the left. I was dating Heather. That's "one of the 13" or "the rocket scientist" on the right ( Chris?). I was on TSAR but I also joined the Lyman search. I was on the Ranger Randy search also.

Recognize AK? I sure miss that girl.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 13, 2014 - 12:01am PT
The Modern Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/90-415

...How do they do it? By attributing to the Holy Spirit words that He didn’t say, deeds that He didn’t do, and experiences that He didn’t produce, attributing to the Holy Spirit that which is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Endless human experiences, emotional experiences, bizarre experiences and demonic experiences are said to come from the Holy Spirit…visions, revelations, voices from heaven, messages from the Spirit through transcendental means, dreams, speaking in tongues, prophecies, out of body experiences, trips to heaven, anointings, miracles. All false, all lies, all deceptions attributed falsely to the Holy Spirit.

You know enough to know that God does not want to be worshiped in illegitimate ways. God wants to be worshiped for who He is, for what He has done in the way He has declared
WBraun

climber
May 13, 2014 - 12:03am PT
Buddha notwithstanding as he was a man and claimed no divinity

You would be very surprised to what/who Buddha really is/was .....
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 13, 2014 - 12:10am PT
Ooh ooh, enlighten me. ( though I believe nothing that I hear and only a little of what I see). I would appreciate you r thoughts as I consider you somewhat a mystic. I'm being sincere and not trolling. I would love to read Buddhas unprinted works. I understand that there are volumes.

Han Shan is enough wisdom for me.
mastadon

Trad climber
crack addict
May 13, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
Mr Flip Flop Sir,

That's a very young Holly and AK in that picture. What year was it taken???

We all miss AK.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 14, 2014 - 03:15am PT
Mastodon that was 1996. I was just bouldering with Holly and Heidi at the Sanitation Boulder. Good times.

Don, she always said that you were her favorite person. True. She really loved you, man.
mastadon

Trad climber
crack addict
May 14, 2014 - 08:43am PT

AK was truly a gentle soul…


Is it thread drift when someone hijacks a rambling negative thread with something less obscene?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
A gentle soul and....gifted.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 14, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
This is all well and good, but not a single Christian has come forward to reconcile their message of love with their very HUMAN support, through voting, campaign donations, or active campaigning, of policies that denied homosexuals from enjoying the same opportunity for happiness called marriage that the other 94 or so % of us enjoy.



clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 14, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
This is all well and good, but not a single Christian has come forward to reconcile their message of love with their very HUMAN support, through voting, campaign donations, or active campaigning, of policies that denied homosexuals from enjoying the same opportunity for happiness called marriage that the other 94 or so % of us enjoy.

Homosexuals should have full legal rights granted to any individual regardless of like genders. Religions should have marriages separate from "legal-state marriages" recognizing commitments that exclude certain individuals because of their beliefs. Freedom is for the homosexual to do whatever a straight person may and also for any person to voice an opinion disagreeing with actions, lifestyles, religions...

I reserve the right think for myself what is right or wrong, so freedom should guarantee fairness but not uniformity.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 14, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
The State doesn't get involved in the religious aspect of a marriage, if there is one. As long the State's legal guidelines for marriage are followed - paperwork and credentials for the officiant, mainly, the couple and their church are free to do what they wish. Churches are not, of course, compelled by law to marry anyone.

So, yes, this is purely a live-and-let-live issue. That homosexuals marry has zero substantive effect on people who choose to disapprove of same.

A Christian claiming not to be bigoted, then actively supporting anti-gay marriage measures flies in the face of both their claim and the 1st Amendment's firewall between governance and religion. If they really believed it was an issue solely between God and man, and that such a sin was a choice - they wouldn't attempt to force those sinners with the weight of the law behind them.

They don't really believe that, of course. Read Focus on the Family's rhetoric regarding how gays are destroying the social fabric of America.

No, this is good, old fashioned American bigotry. The Christians who support anti marriage policies simply f*#king hate gays - and they're not shy at all about advertising it.

So much for the religion of Love, but you already knew that from 2000 years of human misery at the hands of God's Chosen.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 14, 2014 - 11:49pm PT

A Christian claiming not to be bigoted, then actively supporting anti-gay marriage measures flies in the face of both their claim and the 1st Amendment's firewall between governance and religion. If they really believed it was an issue solely between God and man, and that such a sin was a choice - they wouldn't attempt to force those sinners with the weight of the law behind them.

You seem confused?
Are you gay?
Did you vote for gay rights?
Bigoted, means a difference in opinion. When did that become wrong? That's why we have a two party system. To vote against each other.. We need to respect a minority opinion, but we don't have to vote for it.

We have to love them, we don't have to like what they do.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 12:22am PT
^^^ Wow Norton
That wasn't the definition my phone gave me. From urs it sounds like Tvash and you are BIGOTS. Being so anti-Christ and all.

So what do you call it when two people have opposing views?
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 15, 2014 - 01:17am PT
Cripes allmighty clink, do the canadians have to tell you everything?

I hereby ordain myself as the all Enlightened One and decree that all Canadians who try to tell you everything shall be henceforth regarded as lesser human beings. They shall forfeit common rights enjoyed by their non-Canadian know-it-alls and be forced to live part of their lives in secret because of the stigma I have thus created, rightfully so.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 01:30am PT
I'm not anti-Christ, although my ex might argue that I'm THE Anti-Christ.

Rather, I'm anti-bigotry - more specifically, anti-anti-gay bigotry as vigorously practiced by certain Christian organizations in the form of advocating for disciminatory public policy such as the denial of marital equality for that 6% or so of the population who are homosexual.

I do not believe in Christ's divinity - and believe, as most scholars do, that his present day incarnation is largely fictional - an opinion based on the paucity of historical evidence to the contrary. After stripping away all the divinity nonsense, I also aspire to observe the Golden Rule.

That should be specific enough to clear up any further misconceptions I should think.

Aaaand I'm still waiting for that one, brave Christian to reconcile active bigotry with the aforementioned Christ's message of love.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 01:31am PT
I'll second that motion!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 01:35am PT
Love is action, not words. And love involves a giver AND a receiver. Ask the gay community whether they they view Christian bigotry as a form of love...or hatred.

The world is full of people who offend us, and much less full of people who actually threaten us.

And really, really full of people who can't differentiate between the two.

Hint: It's not right to pass laws against people, particularly people who are not actually in our lives in any way, who offend us. After all, one chooses to be offended.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 01:38am PT

Aaaand I'm still waiting for that one, brave Christian to reconcile active bigotry with the aforementioned Christ's message of love.

That was nice Tvash. But you didn't answer any of my questions?
Christs message was/is "love thy brother as thyself." That doesn't mean I want to stick my dick in his butt. That's just gross!!!
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 15, 2014 - 01:42am PT

Christs message was/is "love thy brother as thyself." That doesn't mean I want to stick my dick in his butt. That's just gross!!!

All that have had anal sex with either sex have fallen short of... what? Blue, not cool and a slippery slope.

With or without KY.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 01:49am PT
^^^ it ain't slippery. It's frictional!!!!!!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 01:52am PT

Ask the gay community whether they they view Christian bigotry as a form of love...or hatred.

Maybe the "Christian bigotry" is their/your hatred? When actually it's jus a difference of opinion?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 02:00am PT
Passing discriminatory laws that do real harm to real people is not 'just a difference of opinion'.

Focusing on where other people stick their dicks seems somewhat less than enlightened on several fronts to me.

I guess you'd have to ask all my friends who were finally able to get married here in WA after 2012 and actually have that loving family Christians pontificate so much about. A law that actually increased the love in the world and made it a better place for all of us.

What a concept.

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 15, 2014 - 02:07am PT
Seriously, The Jesus I read and learned about spoke of lifting burdens from the oppressed and condemned the "establishment" for the forcing of traditional religious taboos on their fellow man/woman. Withholding legal rights of any kind from GLB persons is no different in nature to the reasoning that crucified the Christ.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 02:12am PT
A God who cares about who puts whose hose where - now that's a God I can get behind.

My Catholic upbringing focused on being Christ-like - and playing really bad Crosby Stills n Nash on a 12 string.

That simply meant "Don't be a Dick" - not "Where 'r YOU puttin' YOUR dick?" And, it being the Nixon era, we knew exactly what that meant.

Oh wait, didn't we just forget an entire gender?

Oh wait again: that's standard procedure.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 15, 2014 - 02:15am PT
Oh wait again: that's standard procedure.

that is not standard procedure.

I play a six string
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 02:17am PT

Passing discriminatory laws that do real harm to real people is not 'just a difference of opinion'.

What? We suppose to pass laws to protect people. That's why you can't drive until 16. Can't drink till 21. Homosexualality has not shown any positive aspects to society? Remember aids? Killed millions. And Homo's certainly do nothing for evolution to proceed the human race.
So show me a REASON why homosexualality deserves a vote.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 02:21am PT
I wasn't aware that Christians wished to deny the right to vote to homosexuals until now. Only on the Taco.

Why should homosexuals be allowed to marry? Because they are persons with the same right of self determination and treatment under the law as you or I. Because the state has no compelling interest to prevent them from pursuing what is arguably the most important determinant to long term happiness.

End of story.

If you're worried about AIDS, wear a condom.

If you're worried about our rapidly rising 7.2 billion population suddenly collapsing in a massive gay-nado, get that screenplay outta youz. I don't think that one's been done.

John M

climber
May 15, 2014 - 02:31am PT
So show me a REASON why homosexualality deserves a vote.

so before you became a Christian you shouldn't have been allowed to vote, since you were a fallen sinner?

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 02:44am PT
The State does have an interest in promoting stable family units.

Allowing everyone to marry does exactly that.

Preventing people from marrying does the opposite.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 02:44am PT

and actually have that loving family Christians pontificate so much about

No they don't! The Christians pontification is about family. God used Himself as the number one example with the title Father. And many lessons are taught through the Father/son example. I'm pretty sure He used that because He knew He could touch on our sensitivitys after we bore children. No one can understand the life changing event of giving birth to a human being without actually doing it! Homo's can't do it, therefor its NOT the same.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2014 - 02:55am PT
What? We suppose to pass laws to protect people. That's why you can't drive until 16. Can't drink till 21. Homosexualality has not shown any positive aspects to society? Remember aids? Killed millions.

And most of those killed by AIDS were NOT homosexual. God must hate you....why don't you kill yourself and make him happy?

And Homo's certainly do nothing for evolution to proceed the human race.

Nor do people past childbearing age. Or those who have medical conditions that preclude pregnancy. What camps do you want to put them in? I'd assume that would include your parents, at this point. Which camp?


So show me a REASON why homosexualality deserves a vote.

Because the Constitution of the United States guarantees them equal protection of the law. it's not an interpretation. It's the actual words in black and white.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 02:56am PT
TVash
Ur going round and round words. Now you got John mixed up.
I already agreed to give all people the same rights. Then you went off on the religious slander, and I only tried to justify. I never said anything about not allowing homosexuals to vote. My question to you was why I should advocate homosexualality, the act.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2014 - 02:58am PT
^^^ Wow Norton
That wasn't the definition my phone gave me. From urs it sounds like Tvash and you are BIGOTS. Being so anti-Christ and all.

Feel free to post the definition and link from any dictionary you want.
Please show us up.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 03:15am PT
Funny, I just met a lesbian couple with a new born at an art opening on Friday, and I'm pretty sure they didn't shoplift it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 03:19am PT

From iPhones dictionary;
Bigotry; intolerance towards others who hold different opinions then oneself.

What else do you want Kem?
Degaine

climber
May 15, 2014 - 03:34am PT
Blueblocr originally wrote:
Bigoted, means a difference in opinion

From the iphone dictionary that Blueblocr copied and pasted:
From iPhones dictionary;
Bigotry; intolerance towards others who hold different opinions then oneself.


Do you now see how your first post was wrong?

Bigotry is not holding a different opinion or disagreeing with someone, rather it is being intolerant of a person or group because of their differing beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.

Not being Christian and not believing in Christ does not make one a bigot. Not hiring someone or not wanting to be friends with someone simply because they are Christian is bigotry.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 15, 2014 - 08:26am PT
Yes, that's exactly what he looked like when he burst from the tomb and ripped into the faithful with insatiable hunger. That chapter isn't included the King James version.
Sanskara

climber
May 15, 2014 - 09:49am PT
DMT gets my vote...

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 15, 2014 - 09:58am PT
dmt, well said!

Awesome handle pic there, btw. Like!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 15, 2014 - 10:24am PT
Luckily we are not a Sudanese nation.

Sudanese woman sentenced to death for her faith


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/05/15/sudan-woman-death-apostasy/9116439/
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 15, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
http://www.alternet.org/belief/latest-right-wing-propaganda-ploy-bullies-christian-right-pretend-theyre-oppressed
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 15, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
the sooner the Abrahamic religions are rejected once and for all as the lies and fairy tales they are, the better of humanity will be as a whole.
The scourge of rational thought.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 15, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
The State doesn't get involved in the religious aspect of a marriage, if there is one. As long the State's legal guidelines for marriage are followed - paperwork and credentials for the officiant, mainly, the couple and their church are free to do what they wish
Precisely why the 1st Amendment prohibits the State from "respecting" any religious views.
When the State does respect a particular religion you have Sudan which has just sentenced a woman to death by hanging. Apostacy is punishable by death. She renounced Islam and converted to Christianity and just as illegal, she married a Christian. Two strikes and her neck is going to be stretched.

BLUEBLOCR
you may of course believe anything you dam**d well please. Your government cannot make its decisions based upon any religious belief. It must recognize marriage between any two humans.
Believe me, it took this Liberal quite a long time to accept that but now I fully support it.
Oddly enough it was an editorial in that conservative(for the UK) Economist magazine about twelve years ago to convince me. There is ZERO harm to society and much benefit to allow all people the right to marry.
The only people it harms are religious bigots and homophobes.

Homosexualality has not shown any positive aspects to society? Remember aids? Killed millions. And Homo's certainly do nothing for evolution to proceed the human race.
So show me a REASON why homosexualality deserves a vote.
That's about as bigoted and homophobic as anything I've heard spoken in public. At least since Hitler and the current North Korean invincible leader. And religious extremists.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
For those who think the fight against a Christian America is won - remember the Battle of the Bulge.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/12/us/legal-alliance-gains-host-of-court-victories-for-conservative-christian-movement.html

In a nutshell, America's most powerful homophobic groups - all Christian, are training and hiring a new generation of talented attorneys. That trend is bearing fruit in the courts, as witnessed by the most recent 'prayer at government functions' ruling.

A woman's right to choose has been severely damaged in recent years in the legislatures and courts. Need I mention Catholic hospitals?

It's far from over. If you actually care enough to act, I'd suggest writing the biggest check you can afford.

Cuz SCOTUS rulings are the gift that keep on giving.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 15, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Bill Maher rocks. Thank you, Bill, for speaking out about Lib Univ...
Perhaps the most important thing if not the most frightful thing to remember about Liberty U is that by design (a) it graduates Christian lawyers who then push Christian ideologies in the country's legal systems and courtrooms; and (b) it graduates Christian lawyers many of whom proactively seek judgeships, judiciary appointments, in state and federal jurisdictions... Not good.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1386860&msg=1832029#msg1832029

Worth hearing again,
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Note all the Liberty U. commenters, lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep8MYANIv1Y#t=79

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
AGAIN DMT, and others only read what their prejudices allow them to see.

homosexuality (usually uncountable, plural homosexualities)

The state of being sexually and romantically attracted primarily to persons of the same sex.
Sexual activity with a person of the same sex.

If you would have actually followed the conversation you would have heard I voted to give the homosexuals equal rights in the state. I've NEVER stated otherwise.

Just like I have never HATED any person for smoking cigarettes. I HATE when I can smell secondhand smoke. Nor do I HATE people who drink. But I do HATE alchoholism. Without any disrespect toward an individual, I would vote on any initiative that restricts publicly these activities. Forsure these individuals have the Right to harm themselves, they have no Right to harm others in their ignorance. If parents are unable to raise up a human being with respect for themselves or others. The government is expected to step in and become the societal parent or referee by installing laws. The laws are meant to restrict activities that become burdensome in the societal setting. We the people of the US have the unique opportunity to vote for/against what is burdensome to society. Most people in the world don't have this opportunity. Their government just decides what's right or wrong, good or bad. America stands for freedom. Up till now we have declared that Rights are most important and good. And that's Great! However today more then ever we are seeing the repercussions of the Right to do whatever one wants. People without the financial means to get their body fixed from years of consuming toxic poisons look to the government for help. Which is in fact comes from our pocketbook. Of course we want to take care of our loved ones when they are unable to responsibly take care of themselves. But haven't we witnessed a trend with the Rights of individuals that partake in activities that are detrimental to health and happiness? We allow the individual the Right to negatively treat his body, then when something goes wrong we are held liable. It jus doesn't make sense.

We will never become enlightened as a nation, if we continue to rely on the government for parental guidance..
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 15, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
We will never become enlightened as a nation, if we continue to rely on the government for parental guidance..

That this statement seems necessary on a climbers' forum shows the extent to which we have changed as a climbing community. When I started climbing in the 1960's, the last thing we wanted was the government acting like parents. Robbins had an interesting exchange with a climber from the Northwest in Summit magazine in the late '60's or early '70's, where Robbins argued forcefully against the government providing "parental" guidance.

John
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 15, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
People without the financial means to get their body fixed from years of consuming toxic poisons look to the government for help. Which is in fact comes from our pocketbook.
Progressives believe whatever the cause of your illness, even your own stupidity, you have the right to good medical care.
Progressives believe the government has a duty to pass laws for the general benefit by educating the public, limiting the production, marketing (by Big Business) and consumption of toxic poisons.

Got a problem with that? Isn't that the Christian thing to do? What would jesus say?
How much money has Big Business made with the marketing of known addictive toxins to children and adults?
If Unfettered Capitalism behaved morally, government would gladly get out of the way.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 15, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
It doesn't make sense, Blu, because your last diatribe was basically a drain filter sludge of recycled strawmen from the right wing media that has little to do with reality.

Deal with the world as it really is. It's really not that bad of a place.

And, for Dog's sake, deal with you stupid prejudices. Addiction is a life threatening disease. Comparing sexuality - any kind of sexuality - with addiction is profoundly ignorant, and it's pretty obvious that ignorance drives your embarrassingly obvious bigotry. Man, I would never choose to leave the trail of stupid you've left here, but hey, that's me.

Here's a trick for ya: People are people. Life instantly improves when you keep it simple and not worry about things that are none of your business anyway.

And for Christ's sake (literally) get to know some gay people. They're all around you, even if you don't realize it. Funny how that process will keep you from steeping in your own bullsh#t.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 15, 2014 - 03:24pm PT

A metaphor for how brain streams, integrates and filters to produce sentience?

(oops, wrong thread, lol!)
dirtbag

climber
May 15, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Another vote for dingus.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 15, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
^^ Thanks Fellars!

HT, I hope my last post maybe straightened out what you thought my meaning was in that one prior? My meaning was not toward the person, but the act. I very much respect ur voice and do not wish to upset it by a lack of understanding.
Cheers!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 15, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
sandstone...
the sooner the Abrahamic religions are rejected once and for all as the lies and fairy tales they are, the better of humanity will be as a whole... The scourge of rational thought.

That's right, the sooner the better. I bet this poor woman would agree...

http://time.com/100884/sudanese-woman-sentenced-to-death-for-apostasy/

It's 2014, what a shame.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 15, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
BLUEBLOCR
Thanks for getting me to read that post more carefully. We do indeed have significant agreement.
Cheers!

HFCS
worse than shame, it is barbaric.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 16, 2014 - 06:55am PT
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 16, 2014 - 09:30am PT
Glanton, you're getting lost in technicalities.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 16, 2014 - 09:55am PT
Oh Anita,
That's just priceless. Good! lol.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 16, 2014 - 10:20am PT
Government is just one of many external extensions of the homeostatic systems that manage our well being and health made possible by the evolution of our big brains. Assigning a de facto value to 'government' without considering what exact 'government' you're talking about is like resenting the sign that keeps your heart pumping without determining whether or not its functioning property to keep you healthy.

Ah well, the anti-government meme is particularly popular among the evolution deniers - no mystery there.

When there's a mile wide blow hole in one's understanding of where we came from and how the world actually works, bullshit rushes in to fill the void.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 16, 2014 - 10:25am PT
that's grumpy cat
I will upload it here for posterity

I must admit it makes me crack up every time I see it
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 16, 2014 - 06:49pm PT


...we only have one life!

Pastor Greg Laurie
http://www.harvest.org/radio/listen/2014-05-16.html?autoplay=1





apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 16, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
Remember, go-B....

If we don't sin, Jesus will have died for nothing.

Wanna go get a beer?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 16, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
I'm wondering what you guys find so funny with that pic?
I guess because you think ur making fun of Jesus?
I for one never thought any picture looked like Him. The bible slightly describes Jesus' looks. For one His hair was bronze dreadlocks. Which prolly means He was black. I think that would be a really good reason why at first nobody would take Him seriously. It would sure make sense anyway. Could you imagine if a black Jesus walked into America right now. I'd bet half the white Christians seeing Him wouldn't believe Him. He'd have to do a miracle for anyone to believe. That's why only believing in what you can see is stupid! And unspiritual! I think if you want to be more spiritual, close ur eyes, and see with ur ears and nose..
grover

climber
Northern Mexico
May 16, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
Anita's above...


Best one of those things yet...

That fuking CAT with the babies body...

LOL!!!...


Agreed, best one 'yet'

But Lockn00b ... It's a Baby with a cats head.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 17, 2014 - 12:07am PT
The bible slightly describes Jesus' looks. For one His hair was bronze dreadlocks.

lol

anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 17, 2014 - 12:14am PT
Black Jesus.. Like Yeezus?

Bronze dreadlocks... Lol
Are you high buddy?
jstan

climber
May 17, 2014 - 12:17am PT
BB:
Can you give us a citation on that?
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 17, 2014 - 12:28am PT
are ya happy now, Donini? What thou hast wrought, man.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 17, 2014 - 12:46am PT
Go-b knows what no.-b
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 17, 2014 - 08:08am PT
glanton
That's the funniest meme I've ever seen
You made my day
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 17, 2014 - 08:59am PT
"Truly, this be the way we Pastafarians must busy our hands when we pray.

The more fervent our prayers, the more wiggly must our noodly fingers be.

RAmen."

-Flying Spaghetti Monster prayer
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 17, 2014 - 09:01am PT
On the seventh day of floating around infinite nothingness, after six days of rest, the Flying Spaghetti Monster said, 'Let there be a Universe, or something!' And there was a Universe, or something not terribly far off. And the Flying Spaghetti Monster saw that it was pretty damn good, especially the bits with a light sauce.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 17, 2014 - 10:50am PT
A recent poll indicated over 80% of Americans favor keeping "God" in the verbage of many things.

Is it that high? 80%, wow. Now I know America is doomed, if 80% of Americans are completely retarded and obviously have no knowledge of the U.S Constitution.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 17, 2014 - 11:04am PT
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 17, 2014 - 11:08am PT
hey I'm catholic, I can make fun of JC all I want

go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 18, 2014 - 09:43am PT

...the question is if God says to do or not do this or that will you?
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 18, 2014 - 10:30am PT


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

...apples to oranges this is how we got in this mess in the first place!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 18, 2014 - 10:52am PT
"There is only one Righteous God, he is the Lord who tends to his flock, and strains the spaghetti. Kneel and worship his Flighty Almighty Goodness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and do not bow to other false gods."

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 18, 2014 - 01:49pm PT

I personally don't believe in fairy tales...

I believe. How could I not.

The "unbeliever", I don't get you.

Look around. The facts, which is a little of history, a lot of biology, geology, and physics. So that's it? Nothing spiritual or unexplained, hidden from our observation?

It's funny that all these mythical, science fiction/comic book based movies do so well. People are pretty obviously made up of more than than just what is. Do you believe in romance?

Imagination. Belief. Faith. This is Me.

Some may say that they are unbelievers. I don't believe them.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 18, 2014 - 01:55pm PT

What is it with Fundies and humour? The humour is so obvious! If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anything

Exactly.
Gilroy

Social climber
Bolderado
May 18, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 18, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
I believe. How could I not.

That's because you're a drooling vegetable.

Repeat after me:

Baaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

Dumb animals are easy to train.

Sheep are yummy!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 18, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
It's not so much what you believe as what you do.

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 18, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
That's because you're a drooling vegetable.

Repeat after me:

Baaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

Dumb animals are easy to train.

Sheep are yummy!

I drool over delicious vegetables.

I can make many animal sounds.

Smart animals are easy to train, dumb ones are harder to train.

Lamb and beef kabobs are yummy.



clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 18, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
It's not so much what you believe as what you do.

True.

rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 18, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
I drool over delicious vegetables.

Drooling over you own kind does not excuse abject stupidity.

Isn't Sunday?

Now go be a good member of the flock and pray.

Lemming's to the cliff...
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 18, 2014 - 02:38pm PT

Thru the Bible - Sunday Sermon with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

Divine Election and Human Free Will
Sunday, May 18, 2014
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru-the-bible-sunday-sermon/custom-player/

References: Isaiah 55

(Isaiah 55:1-3) Are we saved because God sovereignly chooses us to be saved or because we choose salvation of our own free will? Are these two contradictory or can they be reconciled?
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 18, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
My youngest daughter(14) just showed us a quote.

Jesus said "love your enemies", alcohol is your enemy.

We all laughed.

She is growing up quick.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 18, 2014 - 02:41pm PT

Drooling over you own kind does not excuse abject stupidity.

rif, you are jumping to conclusions. Are you delusional?
Gilroy

Social climber
Bolderado
May 18, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
in atheist afterlife you get to be a proton.
~ Pate
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 18, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
rif, you are jumping to conclusions. Are you delusional?

Not by a long shot. I'm not the one who believes in fairy tales. Maybe ask yourself the very same question.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 18, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
rlf,
Why do you care what he does? Why the hostility? Just agree to disagree like a grown up. All the folks with their self congratulatory insults are commenting far more about themselves than they know.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 18, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
"Just agree to disagree like a grown up."

It would be wonderful if that's as far as the religion issue ever had to go. Unfortunately, religious interests have a persistent and notorious tendency to insert themselves into the politics and lives of other people who don't share that interest.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 18, 2014 - 11:52pm PT

Not by a long shot. I'm not the one who believes in fairy tales. Maybe ask yourself the very same question.

I like fairy tales. Believe in them? Something out of nothing, well that is pushing it. Voodoo would be nice if well deserved.

I am not a church goer, but my oldest daughter does. I tell her before you send money for some great mission cause, take a look at who is sitting around you and help that need first. If a person missing a leg walks out of a healing service with two, put your money in the offering plate. But I can be a cynic too.

The rejection of science by the church, the rejection of gay marriage by christians, and the rejection of believers by some of those posting here are similar in basic premise. That is blindly accepting what one knows or believes to be true or works for them, and not observing the facts that say otherwise.

What are the ingredients for a loving family, a cure for a disease? To figure out what in a source of water is harmful? To volunteer your time and resources to do something good for others? These are good. Careful with your prejudice, or you may end up batty yourself.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
May 19, 2014 - 12:04am PT
Religious people can't believe that everything evolved from "nothing", that the universe is so fantastic and wonderful that it just had to have a "creator".
So where did God come from? Did He have a creator as well? No? He's always been there? Really...How is that any easier to swallow?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 19, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
It would be wonderful if that's as far as the religion issue ever had to go. Unfortunately, religious interests have a persistent and notorious tendency to insert themselves into the politics and lives of other people who don't share that interest.
Unfortunately, that is true. If people and politicians put more stock in the Establishment Clause (or even acknowledged its existence) then we'd be able to avoid this issue for the most part. I'm Catholic (and actually go to Mass) and I abhor attempts by others to insert prayer into the public forum or, worse, pervert education to conform with the puny brains of many "believers" out there. Sadly, there are a lot of people (read, non-demoninational evangelicals--some, not all!) out there, who believe non-compliance with their views is the same as an attack. Sounds a lot like the gun nuts.

Maybe that's the point of this thread. Inserting religion into politics and community life. I disagree with that, clearly. However, too often these threads devolve into ad hominem attacks by people who really have what appears to be an unhealthy hang up on other people's beliefs.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 19, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Fat Dad
Excellent post by a Believer.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 19, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
Fat Dad, great post.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 19, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
BTW possibly the best fairy tale is Shrek. It has all the important fairy tale elements but in a sometimes screwed up, true to life, beautiful and ugly fashion.

And for the record if a story was strpped down to this, some guy saying to the powers that be." You are f#king common folks to better your own situation, screw you and your rules and be damned" And then he gets lynched for it. I would believe it and like this guy or gal for that matter.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 19, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
I'm glad that BluBlocr has a higher power. The stuff he writes! Phew. Sheer nonsense. He promotes using the government to make rules on gays and then immediately says that we shouldn't rely on government.
He then tells us to see with our noses.

Um? The Establishment clause protects you from us, for now. I'd vote to make Christianity a hate-group before I'd vote with the religious bigots. Haters.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 19, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
I'm starting to warm to you Flip Flop, I shall root for you. ;)
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 19, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
Flip Flop, does your name mean that you are conflicted? Split personality? Or relaxed, it's all good, chillin type? Fish out of water? Were you scheming to shoot Charlton Heston because he was president of the NRA? Eat steak one day, then a vegan the next?

Like wearing thongs?

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 19, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit, I can't help but laugh every time I read your handle.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 19, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Clinker, I had such high hopes for you in the beginning - but you dashed every one. Aughh!

Beta, specialized for just you: There's more to education than Sunday School. ;)

.....

Sorry, bro.

But Christian mythology is one thing, Christian religion another.

There's just too many people in the world - and not just in America - taking this ancient bronze age narrative literally.

It's the 21st century, we have to adapt. The health of the planet depends on it and some group needs to lead the way.
Rudbud

Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
May 19, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
Awesome post Fat Dad.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 19, 2014 - 11:45pm PT

But Christian mythology is one thing, Christian religion another.

It's the 21st century, we have to adapt. The health of the planet depends on it and some group needs to lead the way.

Where in anything I say did you get the idea that I am a christian or religious, I only said believing. I am a skeptic with an inquiring mind.
WBraun

climber
May 19, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
HFCS -- "The health of the planet depends on it and some group needs to lead the way."


Fruity will become his own god, with his own cult and lead them to safety.

The new religion "HFCS"

We've all seen how this ends up ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 19, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
Awesome post Fat Dad.

No, it really wasn't (to be "frank"), not if you dig down beneath the surface. Anything at depth, regarding Fat Dad's post, is steeped in inconsistency; at best it's accomodation, thus Grade C+ at most.

We have to get past the Abrahamic religions. And the only way to do that is to admit their mythology and come to terms w the modern understanding of how the world works.

.....

Blast from the past, WB: "Get off my grass."

.....

Alright, Clinker, I might have jumped the gun (but not the shark)...

Let's see what more you have to say... ;)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 19, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
Unfortunately, that is true. If people and politicians put more stock in the Establishment Clause (or even acknowledged its existence) then we'd be able to avoid this issue for the most part. I'm Catholic (and actually go to Mass) and I abhor attempts by others to insert prayer into the public forum or, worse, pervert education to conform with the puny brains of many "believers" out there. Sadly, there are a lot of people (read, non-demoninational evangelicals--some, not all!) out there, who believe non-compliance with their views is the same as an attack. Sounds a lot like the gun nuts.

Well, there're 2 parts to that clause. I think you may be ignoring one of them. But, I too think religion is a private matter that should stay away from politics, for the most part.

And what's up with the shot at "gun-nuts"? People do still have 2nd Amendment rights to own firearms responsibly, right?

Maybe that's the point of this thread. Inserting religion into politics and community life. I disagree with that, clearly. However, too often these threads devolve into ad hominem attacks by people who really have what appears to be an unhealthy hang up on other people's beliefs.


Maybe the OP should consider this? He started it. He stirred the sh#t up. And I do believe our Founders were deeply religious Christians fleeing the Anglican Church of England.

And for that reason, despite being deeply religious, they knew religion should be left out of governance.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 19, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
Bluring (kindred spirit of Blublocker, perhaps?),

So you do acknowledge, the birth of Christ-God by a virgin, the Resurrection of Christ-God and the Ascension of Christ-God are not to be taken literally but only metaphorically or mythologically.

Is that right?

I mean, just to be clear.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 20, 2014 - 12:00am PT

Let's see what more you have to say... ;)

Well, since you asked.

I don't want public meetings started with a prayer, but want them to end sooner than later with "may the force be with you" It's so American.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 12:12am PT
Bluring (kindred spirit of Blublocker, perhaps?),

So you do acknowledge, the birth of Christ-God by a virgin, the Resurrection of Christ-God and the Ascension of Christ-God is not to be taken literally but only metaphorically or mythologically.

Is that right?

I mean, just to be clear.

I don't claim to know everything. I do follow the "myth".
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 20, 2014 - 12:29am PT
If indeed it's the myth rather than the absolute univeral truth (beyond all doubt), then good on you.

See you in Tuolumne. :)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 20, 2014 - 12:52am PT
So here's your chance, I suppose, Blu... to distinguish yourself from "The Chief" - lol!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 20, 2014 - 01:06am PT

Just a thought...

"theology of science"

The "science" put your helicoptors in the air. Where's the gratitude?

I'm not seeing it, correct me if I'm amiss.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 20, 2014 - 01:12am PT
Mostly it's because I wear rubber slippers, as they say in Hawaii. Also there was a sudden change of heart from starting nailing a wall with bros to going back to climbing free routes with and hanging with the GF by the river. So there's some vacillating as well. I think. Maybe. I dunno. Maybe not. Or maybe.
I'm not conflicted about religions though. One thing that everyone agrees on is that people have vivid imaginations. Downright fanciful. Cheers.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 20, 2014 - 02:21am PT
Does it boil down to being afraid of dying?

Science is just a term to explain provable and repeatable facts. It's not an opinion. Religion is just opinion and ideas. Religion cannot feed anyone, nor heal anyone. The Bible contains no useful information other than opinions. Science and Religion are opposites.

The helicopter flies because of mining, chemistry, physics, society and education. The pilot is just one player.

Religion had millennia to learn to fly or heal children but that's not what religion does. Religion has opinions about heresy, apostasy, sin, judgement and damnation. This kind of thinking is anti-intellectual. It makes no sense for me to sentence you to eternal damnation because of your or my opinions.
Science is the opposite of mythology. Science will still be proved in 1000 years. We have proof of scientific progress from long before Jesus and Abraham.
Degaine

climber
May 20, 2014 - 06:54am PT
The Chief wrote:
Science is merely a modern day religion

You, like most people on this thread, are confusing religion and dogma. Science isn't a religion. However, certain groups do use and have used science as a way to control or dismiss others, much like religion has been used throughout history and even today. Again, dogma.

Flipflop wrote:
Science is just a term to explain provable and repeatable facts. It's not an opinion
.

Actually, it's a method not a term, and for a hypothesis to be considered valid/proved using the scientific method, it has to be repeatable.

Flipflop wrote:
Religion is just opinion and ideas. Religion cannot feed anyone, nor heal anyone. The Bible contains no useful information other than opinions. Science and Religion are opposites.

You, like most criticizing religion on this thread, unfortunately dismiss the historical context of religion (not sure if you're doing it on purpose). It has served as both a belief system for explaining the unknown, to a guide on how to live (both from a legal point of view and practical). The Old Testament (Torah) has quite a bit of practical and useful information in addition to the storytelling. Theses texts were written over 2500 years ago, long before "Better Homes and Gardens" published its first issue, and long before Psychology Today published and in-depth article on how to mourn the loss of a loved one.



In any case, having been born and raised in the US, I feel that religion is a very personal and private issue, not to be imposed on others.

For me, the religion of the country's founders is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that the colonies and country were founded in part by those escaping religious persecution and the distasteful experience of having lived in a country with one state-imposed religion. Thus the first amendment and the establishment clause.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 20, 2014 - 07:41am PT
You, like most criticizing religion on this thread, unfortunately dismiss the historical context of religion

I've read plenty of history books, but I do not then create bizarre mythology based on the book, and then spend my life enacting bizarre rituals (eating his flesh - really?).

Nor do I, in contrast to most religious people, try to force everyone else around me to obey bizarre religious beliefs like they're law. I appreciate your sentiments in that regard. Thank you.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 20, 2014 - 08:20am PT
Also there was a sudden change of heart from starting nailing a wall with bros to going back to climbing free routes with and hanging with the GF by the river

You are a very wise man.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 20, 2014 - 08:45am PT

The "science" put your helicoptors in the air. Where's the gratitude?

In the beginning, someone dreamed of flying.

That is why there are helicopters in the air.

Believing is thinking with creativity.

So, if there was a higher power, that could mess with the laws of physics, chemistry and biology. Imagine the creative possibilities.

And, if there was a spiritual world to boot? Now that is just getting interesting.

I would recommend a good mechanic who is more scientific than spiritual to work on the helicopters.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 20, 2014 - 11:44am PT

I'm glad that BluBlocr has a higher power. The stuff he writes! Phew. Sheer nonsense. He promotes using the government to make rules on gays and then immediately says that we shouldn't rely on government.
He then tells us to see with our noses.

I'm the first to admit that my writing skills suck! I see a trend that my sincere opinion is not being projected the way I want in a paragraph or two. I will refrain.

It is politics that make us stand up and voice our opinion. Somany times when opinions don't match, one side gets pronounced a Hater. This is what I can't stand in politics. Politics tries to make absolutes out of everything. If the government says its OK to start driving at 16, people are gonna do it. If the gov says its ok to start smoking at age 18 people are going to do it. If the gov says its ok to drink when 21 their gonna do it because the government said its ok. But isn't it up to parents to teach its better not to smoke in the first place. That's all I meant by not relying on the government.

My bad.

I only wish we were having these discussions face to face..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
I don't want to Google it, but I know Da Vinci, Galileo did the original blueprints for a medievel 'helicopter'.

These were both men of God AND science. They can coexist, science and religion.

And Einstein even said that there had to be a higher intelligence to put the things he saw in motion.

As to how you define a country as this-or-that is kinda weird. But we were founded by deeply Christian men and women. And most of our current population identifies with a higher power, which most call God.

Doesn't mean you have to, but that's just the way it is. Me and the Chief agree on his points.

EDIT:
I'm glad that BluBlocr has a higher power. The stuff he writes! Phew. Sheer nonsense. He promotes using the government to make rules on gays and then immediately says that we shouldn't rely on government.
He then tells us to see with our noses.

Pick up a Constitution sometime. The Fed and the States have separate jurisdictions. The States are entitled to operate independently if they do not violate Fed Constitutional law. The 5th/14th Amends is a weak argument here in terms of gays.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 20, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
That the universe is really big and really powerful isn't exactly the most profound revelation I've ever come across.

Gay marriage bans have been struck down in 7 states in the past few months. Apparently, the 14th Amendment is a good argument.

More to the point, though, the government must show a compelling reason to deny a certain group equal rights. "Christians don't like it" apparently hasn't proven to be a very compelling reason in Federal District courts so far this year.

Even Christians wouldn't want a government that can deny human rights without having to show a compelling reason.

That can really backfire on ya.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
That the universe is really big and really powerful isn't exactly the most profound revelation I've ever come across.


That's neither here-nor-there, in fact it's just one man's opinion. In fact it even more facetious when you do not add what you actually DO find to be profound revelations.

You've stated nothing of worth. In addition to the cosmos and the heavens, and the bizarre events that we're subjected to, I find the oceans to be totally fascinating. That and they way they interact with the Moon and the rest of the Solar System. A powerful lady, the oceans.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 20, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
What personal experiences have you had with oceans, Bluering, other than looking at them?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 20, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
We are not a Christian Nation. We are Nation founded by Christians. Their intent was to welcome everyone that wanted to work hard for a nation where everyone, regardless of belief, race etc., could succeed. Some Christians have lost the plot
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
Bluey, Adams, Jefferson and Franklin were FAR from religious but the religious affiliations of the founding fathers 227 years ago is irrelevant. The abiding strength of our democray (the worlds oldest) is the diversity of our people. Diversity in ethnicity, cultures, and religious beliefs AND non beliefs.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 20, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
Not really. Not at all, in fact.

Franklin and Jefferson were deists, Washington was a pantheist, John Adams wound up as a Unitarian, and Hamilton was a barely practicing Anglican.

Nope, not a hard core Christian in the bunch. Certainly nothing that would even remotely resemble today's Evangelicals.

The whole Founding Father Christian thing is what you'd expect: Modern day bullshit to foster a modern day agenda for a special interest group.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 11:29pm PT

We are not a Christian Nation. We are Nation founded by Christians. Their intent was to welcome everyone that wanted to work hard for a nation where everyone, regardless of belief, race etc., could succeed. Some Christians have lost the plot


Yes, exactly. A quick look at the Bill of Rights and the Declaration, and various other quotes by Founders can lead one to any interpretation one likes to choose. Both sides of the argument.

But the fact remains that the country was founded by Christians. That is indisputable.

Despite being deeply religious, almost all Founders, in their infinite wisdom and humility, decided that religion should remain private and not a function of the gov't. Hence the portion of the 1st amend.

BUT! They also did not want gov't to PREVENT the free exercise of religion. Indeed, they wanted people to freely express any religion, if it was in the bounds of other laws.

The kicker nowadays is that the only people imposing gov't on religion are the FEDs! That is un-constitutional!!!!

(They discriminate on gays through IRS tax-laws, it's the States that are trying to prevent this, but you all just think States are homophobes).

EDIT:
The whole Founding Father Christian thing is what you'd expect: Modern day bullshit to foster a modern day agenda for a special interest group.

This is untrue and a fabrication. A re-write of historical documents.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
Here're Franklin quotes on the virtue of religion;
http://www.searchquotes.com/Benjamin_Franklin/Religion/quotes/

Jefferson on God;
http://www.searchquotes.com/Thomas_Jefferson/God/quotes/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
no that is accurate. It is Bullshit engineered to serve some special interest... not hard guessing who too. Lets say for the sake of argument they were all hard core fundies every last one of them. So what? Does it in any way alter the meaning and interpretation of your founding articles and constitution? Hardly. They may as well have been a bunch of Hindu's or scientologists for all it matters.

Or does it? You mean to tell me they were insinuating christian doctrine into your constitution Bluey? Is that what you're saying? If not then whats the point in even discussing it?

You're not listening to what I just previously posted. They were religious but put boundaries in place because they knew what could happen. Either way.

Read again what I posted above.

EDIT: Dingus would have us eliminate the clause entirely in the 1st Amend. because he's a fascist. He wants all people he disagrees with silenced, especially the American majority, Christians.

There should only be the State, and no religion! (Especially those pesky Christians)
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 20, 2014 - 11:53pm PT
I thought it was midichlorians that put helicopters in the air?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 20, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
The founding of this continent is as far from christian ideals as possible. Think Native genocide before espousing the wonderful attributes of our founding fathers
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
What is the purpose in drawing attention to the claim of christian heritage in the founding fathers?


Facts, much?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 20, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
I thought it was midichlorians that put helicopters in the air?


Da Vinci was the original Jedi;

http://www.da-vinci-inventions.com/aerial-screw.aspx

EDIT:
The founding of this continent is as far from christian ideals as possible. Think Native genocide before espousing the wonderful attributes of our founding fathers


Typical liberal crap. Change the subject! Maybe we should have left those nice Indians to kill themselves, because they always so nice to each other and never savages. Never!

We brought nothing of value to humanity after coming here.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 21, 2014 - 12:08am PT
What we brought together were many Western concepts. Natural law, the Bible, and Manifest Destiny. Our COnstitution and our legal systen is based on all of those.

The men who fought for the country and wrote the subsequent documents were basing much on those 3 docs. And there was much discussion to get to the final doc.

The Fedarlists and anti-Federalists were much at odds. They settled, and the Federalists (pro State-law) won IMO.

I would consider myself a Federalist today. State's rights, baby.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 21, 2014 - 12:12am PT
...if everyone turns to "Christ" it could be! :)
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 21, 2014 - 12:35am PT
We invaded a continent and wiped everyone out through disease, rape, alcoholism, christian manifest destiny bullsh#t, and genocide. From the tip of South America to the Aleutian Islands . Dispute that fact please. Oh yes, don't forget 60 million buffalo as well. Vital components to a healthy ecosystem in the Plains, but goddamn those pesky Comanche, Kiowa, Arapaho, etc. who wouldn't be tamed.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 21, 2014 - 12:38am PT
Ancient, like the Kurgon
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 21, 2014 - 12:41am PT
You guys are arguing with people who believe in zombies.

Best of luck.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 21, 2014 - 12:43am PT
I don't recall the Bluering sig on the Declaration.

As usual when YOU say WE you mean THEM.

Same as it ever was... same as it ever was.

DMT


Give it a rest with this projectionist bullsh#t. So I'm responsible for racism before I was born too? Is that ME? Can it be ME when my Grandfather shot Koreans in the face? Or is it just up to you to decide who can have feelings of patriotism?

you're full are white-guilt crap....

EDIT:
You guys are arguing with people who believe in zombies.

And with that you should have no further comments. God bless ya, brah!
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 21, 2014 - 12:54am PT
There's a lot of Home Depots and Wal-marts built on top of burial grounds. I bet a lot of those dudes were kick-ass warriors. Probably a lot of McDonald's too.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 21, 2014 - 01:09am PT
That's my point. There is no 'we' in original intent document.

Well, MY fellow countrymen did start one of our documents, "We the people", and you better bet yer ass they meant that to endure for eternity as they saw it.

It was the creation of the most awesome Republic ever. It started it all. And I'm proud of those men. They did the right thing, despite their flaws, they created what we have today!

Tell that to China, North Korea, or even Japan!

I'm proud of our heritage. We did more good than bad.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 21, 2014 - 01:17am PT
It's Father Knows Best without the clever double entendres.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 21, 2014 - 01:38am PT
Dude you're so full of it.

DMT


Yeah, it's called patriotism. I'm totally full of it. Want some, or would you rather continue to sh#t on it?

Kinda weird that a never-served-nic has more honor of our foundation and traditions than a REAL patriot like yerself. I need to get some more of your condemnation down into my soul. I just don't feel it enough. Something must be wrong with me.
dirtbag

climber
May 21, 2014 - 02:17am PT
Well, they didn't create what we have today. They created some of our modern political structure but they also created a political structure that disenfranchised over half the population, and created protections allowing the elites to tyrannize and completely subjugate about 20% of the population. Those ideas were eventually rejected, but not after several decades passed, and quite a bit of blood was shed.

They had some good ideas but they certainly were NOT gods, for crying out loud.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 21, 2014 - 07:53am PT
You're arguing history with an intellectual wind up toy.

Prior to 1916, my peeps were across the pond hating just about everybody else from our remote and soggy hovels, while the Brits hated us.

We reserved that special hatred for each other, of course.

Just say no to Original Guilt.

Dirty, dirty humans.

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 21, 2014 - 09:15am PT
Them Brits had their heads up their arses.

Those with a bit o' that Irish blood, Native Americans, Canadians, The Founding Fathers, the feuding children. We can all agree now.



I am being somewhat educated by this discussion.



Be warned. Do not F--- with Santa Clause, Mrs. Clause, the hard working Elves, and all reindeer. Or else! I will find out where you live and by a plane ticket. I also have a passport, so you Canadians better watch what you say about Santa too.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2014 - 10:23am PT
Cleaved off the state religion part....precisely BK. Most of the first European settlers came here because they were persecuted by the "state religions" in their native lands.
Freedom of religion was an important concept in our constitution....it also implies freedom FROM religion. No longer would a person be persecuted because they practiced the wrong religion or no religion.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 21, 2014 - 10:48am PT
yes, the Chief, I'm sure the crags were crawling with Indians. Now they're crawling with loud-ass, spoiled, trash-throwing Americans who have no respect for anything, except of course for their patriotism.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 21, 2014 - 11:23am PT
Boy SC! I bet when you look at a rose you only see thorns?

I think the US is on the cutting edge of "the people" as a society deciding on which moral grounds to stand on, and documenting them for all to see. Seems like in the past, anybody with any "goods" would hide them away and not speak up. The Internet being the "Great Campfire" where we can ALL speak up, or listen. Where else in the world do they have a bunch of geniuses sitting around bagg'in on the neighbors?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 21, 2014 - 11:53am PT
It was the creation of the most awesome Republic ever. It started it all.

which one? what all?

We did more good than bad.

we did? to whom?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 21, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
Let's de-mythologize the Founding Fathers Were Christians claim:
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson[21][22][23] (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.[24] Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists

An alternate view:
Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[
Jefferson's "bible" written later in his life:
Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine

Any quick Wikipedia search will give you similar results.

You can claim that the Founding Fathers were mostly raised Christian and practiced it some time in their lives. You cannot claim the Founding Fathers were all Christian.
They most definitely wanted to keep government out of religion and more importantly, religion out of government.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 21, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
We did more good than bad.

Yep.
Authors, such as David Cesarani, argued that United States government policies in furtherance of its so-called Manifest Destiny constituted genocide.

Determining how many people died as a direct result of armed conflict between Native Americans, and Europeans and their descendants, is difficult because accurate records are generally not available.[21] One notable study by Gregory Michno concluded that of 21,586 tabulated casualties, military personnel and settlers accounted for 6,596 (31%), while indigenous casualties totaled about 14,990 (69%) for the period 1850–90.
John M

climber
May 21, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
You have to fight in defense of your country, to be patriot.

I know that we have had this argument before, but do you mean actually fight, or just serve in the military? And why is the military in your opinion the only thing that protects america? Is the guy who grows the food that feeds the military also necessary in your paradigm? What about the person who builds the tank? Or the plane? The military doesn't function without all of those things. And you don't have a new supply of fighters without someone having babies, so in the long run do moms count in your definition of patriot?

If none of them count and only those who actually fight or serve in the military count as patriots in your definition, then are the rest are just good citizens? And the good citizens supply everything that the "Patriots" need to fight.

Just curious Dingus.. I"m not trying to attack you. Just interested in how you define Patriot. I happen to agree with you that if you push for a war, then you should be willing to sign up and go to the front line.
John M

climber
May 21, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
I believe that you would have to define what constitutes "harms way" for me to understand better, but I'm not certain that I really want to get into that today. I'm kind of distracted because I'm packing to move.

Just as an example though, does any military service qualify as "in harms way"? Or do you actually have to be a front line soldier?

Do all policemen who walk a beat qualify as being in harms way since they might be called on to go after a terrorist? Of do they only qualify if they have actually gone after a terrorist?

Do border patrol qualify as being in harms way? Since they also might be called on to stop a terrorist?
John M

climber
May 21, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
LOL.. well, I'm glad to see that those REMFs don't qualify, though you have pretty much knocked out yourself and 99 percent of most americans from being called a Patriot.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
May 21, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
Typical members of organized religion summarized in one anecdote:



Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic scum!" And I pushed him over.


(With credit to American comedian Emo Phillips.)

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 21, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
Thanks, Mtn young. I'd been looking for that joke, except that I heard it told in Mennonite Brethren terms.

John
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
Never confuse patriotism with mindless flag waving and jingoism.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 21, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
and I don't say 'we' when I mean 'them.'

It starts in childhood, with sports, and just grows from there. How many times have you heard some little kid, or a fat adult couch potato who couldn't run ten feet, talk about "his" football team. "Man, we're going to hand those 49ers a beating!"

Yeah, right. In the same way rabid patriots who never served talk about how "we" handed them ragheads (or gooks, or krauts) a beating.

Kind of disgusting.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 21, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
I don't like the word 'we' when someone means 'anyone BUT ME'. I don't like it when life-long civilians think a political view = patriot. IT DOES NOT! You have to fight in defense of your country, to be patriot. The chief is a patriot plenty of others here too. Life long assembly line workers raising a god loving family? As American as apple pie and good on him! But that don't make no Patriot.

Its my Niagara Falls. Sorry.

DMT


I think you're conflating 'patriot' with 'patriotism'. 2 different things. One does selfless acts in defense of American values, the others are the ones who support them. Has a lot to do with the military, but not necessarily IMO.

pa·tri·ot
noun \ˈpā-trē-ət, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət\

: a person who loves and strongly supports or fights for his or her country

But as a free American you're entitled to define it anyway you'd like. And I understand where you're coming from. You just denegrate all those who stay home who love AMerica and her values, who morally and fiscally support a strong military defense. The boots on the ground, the real heroes and patriots.

One could not exist without the other. This is the beauty of America. The dudes on the line taking fire are patriots. I'm just a patriotic American.
WBraun

climber
May 21, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
But as a free American

Americans are not free.

They're slaves to the automobile and the telephone.

They're slaves to to technology and have lost their soul ......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 21, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
Americans are not free.

They're slaves to the automobile and the telephone.

They're slaves to to technology and have lost their soul ......


We're still free enough to live without those things if we so choose. For now.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
May 21, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
We're still free enough to live without those things if we so choose. For now.

He posts this to the internet lol!
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 21, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
Jesus just appeared to me. I am found. He has an important message. More to come.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 22, 2014 - 07:16am PT
To be a patriot you have to put yourself in harms way in defense of your country. Simple as that.

Never confuse patriotism with mindless flag waving and jingoism.


Totally agree.

I am/was a patriot, a Cold War Warrior, and the only people who ever actually shot at me were Americans who didn't like having a loud military jet fly over their house.

Once, though, I was chased by a couple of Libyan MIG-23s, but an F-14 Tomcat sent both of them to the bottom of the sea.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 22, 2014 - 09:11am PT
especially the part where they take out a sharp scalpel and cleave off the state religion part.

How many times do revisionists need to be reminded that the original US Constitution implicitly allowed the individual states to establish religion, enforce or prohibit religious practice or discriminate on the basis of religion? Even Pennsylvania, renowned for its "religious tolerance" required acceptance of a single god as a pre-requisite for any civil rights, and required acceptance of the new testament as divine to hold public office. Its current constitution still retains the 1790 wording which would prevent holding of public office by those not acknowledging "the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments".

This supreme court ruling will go down in history alongside Dredd Scott; an immoral conclusion based on an accurate interpretation of the "original intent".

TE










clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 22, 2014 - 09:24am PT
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."

I heard the version between a free stance climber and a hook & drill climber.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 22, 2014 - 09:28am PT
"Man, we're going to hand those 49ers a beating!"

You are not from around here.

We are going to kick Seattle's ass this year.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 22, 2014 - 09:40am PT
Jesus just appeared to me. I am found. He has an important message. More to come.

That wasn't Jesus. It was Al Gore. You interrupted him doing something inappropriate with John Mayer. He said "it's getting hot in here"

I don't think you're his type.







The description "inappropriate" has nothing to do with them both being men, you bigoted and homophobic bastards.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 22, 2014 - 09:42am PT

Is that really what all this states rights stuff is? A cute end run around the nations constitution to keep those high fulutin' pesky entitlements of equality from messing with local traditions?

Uh ...... yes it is.

To complicated for Canadians?
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 22, 2014 - 09:56am PT
And if the current Pennsylvania constitution appalls you, how about the original Massachusetts one? At least MA had the decency to revise theirs.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Constitution

"It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe."

"... and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily."

TE
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 22, 2014 - 10:03am PT
Speaking of patriots......

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 22, 2014 - 10:06am PT
Patriotism is a bludgeon for the stupid and an excuse for institutionalized murder.

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 22, 2014 - 10:57am PT
But Jesus just appeared to me with an important message. Why won't anyone believe me?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2014 - 11:20am PT
That's because you haven't tried my morel mushroom burgers.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 22, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Is it really so hard to believe that Jesus just appeared and wants to clear up some misunderstandings? Where's the love? Where's the faith?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2014 - 11:24am PT
He only appears on those rare occasions when he gets a hall pass from Mary Magdalene.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 22, 2014 - 11:44am PT
so............ simple question. the states rights thing. am I right or not?

If you mean is claiming "states rights" an attempt to allow states to discriminate (as the founding fathers intended, or at least permitted), then yes, you are correct.

There was however a civil war and a 14th Amendment to the constitution, which settled those issues in favor of the Federal Government, so it can be claimed as much as they want, but it ain't so.

TE
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 22, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Ok FlipFlop, What was revealed to you? This is going to make you my new enlightend leader. Don'tlead me astray.


Morel?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 22, 2014 - 10:55pm PT
Tvash said

Patriotism is a bludgeon for the stupid and an excuse for institutionalized murder.

It can be, but it rarely is. You're thinking of fascism I think. I wonder how you think about late-term abortion?


EDIT:

Because we all know some cows are more important than the survival of some 'worthless' species.

They're your kinda people!

DMT


It's fascinating when anti-LEO and anti gov't people start to support regs against cows who are claimed to be destroying the habitat of a rodent. ReallY?

Maybe there are other motives. The desert tortoise wasn't in danger in Nevada, it was a land-grab! And the gov't killed just as many, if not more, during the program implementation.

It's all bullsh#t, at least most of it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 22, 2014 - 11:19pm PT
As for States' rights, the 9th Amendment was put in to allow States to be 'laboratories of democracy', to exercise rights not delegated to the Fed or forbidden by other Constitutional laws.

The Fed was supposed to have a very limited oversight role. Not a domineering one that it has today.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
May 22, 2014 - 11:26pm PT
So what's the morel of the story here??
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 22, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
SAN FRANCISCO COCK SUCKAH!!!!!!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 22, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
Just thought that might inform the debate.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 22, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
So what's the morel of the story here??

That every clown has silly lining?

Damn near ended my days up on Snow Creek Wall when a huge block pulled and I rode it down for a ways and when I slammed to a stop I got to watch it head for the rope. But it missed, and I finished the pitch but then could barely stand once I reached the ledge cuz my knee didn't work very well anymore after zooming into the wall under the overhang.

So we bailed, but on the hobble out we realized that the trail was lined on both sides with morels for almost its full length. (I don't why we hadn't noticed on the way up.) Eric was carrying some stupidly gigantic frame pack, and we pretty much filled it.

Too bad I don't like morels.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 22, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Liberals must have a deep mental disorder, closely related to hatred and self-guilt. This is my conclusion after dealing with so many people online.

It is based on years or personal experience, anecdotal data. Not "science".

But it seems that Christians deal with their attacks in a kind, respectful manner.

The vile attacks against us are very nasty, usually profane, and relegating us to stupid people.

My point is that we Christians tend to still be better stewards of society. And a good Christian never brags about it, but I thought it needed to be said.

Think about this. Would the world be better or worse without Christians and their "stupid values"?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 23, 2014 - 12:00am PT
The only question you can ask is the only one you can answer with any authority - would the world be better off without you?

You don't speak for anyone else, libruls, d gayz, or 'Christians'. I know a passel of Christians, real ones, who wouldn't wipe their arse with the likes of you. You're an embarrassment to them.

Sorry to be so frank, but dood - you're a fugazi with a cross lodged firmly up your poop chute.

And, like most maroons, you're also a one note song.

Or hymn, I guess.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 23, 2014 - 12:05am PT

Think about this. Would the world be better or worse without Christians and their "stupid values"?

Why don't you hold a really big slab of meat in front of a very hungry bunch of tigers.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 23, 2014 - 12:08am PT
So, you're saying the world wold be better if we were gay? Or Muslim?

The Christian way is so bad that we should relegate to whom? Atheists? Muslims? Gays?

That would be awesome?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 23, 2014 - 12:10am PT
One less arsehole is always a nice-to-have.

I'm envisioning a weld mit out zee Jews.

Oh wait, that's been tried.

You can sub in jews with any variable you like, but the equation always resolves to 'FCKED IN THE HEAD'

Live and let live.

The one tenet fundies absolutely cannon abide.

Unfortunately for Focus on the Family and the like - that tenet defines the future.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 23, 2014 - 12:18am PT
I had a discussion over lunch today with a younger, growing smarter, punk.

We discussed the difference between naivete and ignorance.

In the case of Tvash, I think he's both. Simply put, either stupid and naive, or just a liar.

I'm used to dealing with this level of propaganda and bullsh#t. Although, he thinks he's so smart, hence the naivete.

His ignorance enters when he supports what he says. What he says has no basis in fact.

The liberal mind is distorted and is troubling.

EDIT: Interesting you go straight to Jews for your point. Very telling.

Got Jew on yer mind? Anti-semite!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 23, 2014 - 12:25am PT
TRue, Jimmy. And I despise using tired old labels.

That why as#@&%es like me use the 'neo' tag to re-address this changing issue
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 23, 2014 - 12:26am PT
I do have a Jew on my mind. I just skied Glacier Peak with one, but he's only a half member of the tribe, so perhaps that demotes me to semi-anti-semite.

That, and he's an atheist.

As are all my Jewish friends.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 23, 2014 - 12:34am PT
Maybe your friend is a neo-Jew, Tvash. One who hates his/her own culture in favor of liberal, progressive crap.

To each his/her own. Have fun with that!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 23, 2014 - 12:38am PT
You're wrong, Jimmy. Ideologies morph constantly.

This is the game of commies and progressives, and even ultra-conservatives.

As I said I hate labels, but modern commies combine several ideologies, and stray from pure Marxism or National Socialism, or Maoism.

It always morphs. But it is all tyranny.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 23, 2014 - 12:45am PT
What's really ironic to me is that Jews today are some of the most hated people in the world, next to Christians, but everybody ignores the throat-cutters in Islam.

They actually attack innocents in other faiths and KILL them for that. Jews and Christians tend to take unusual care to target the guilty and avoid the innocent.

I see what's happening, it's just disturbing that others can't see the obvious.

Jews/Christians=bad, Islam=no opinion.

Cowards.

EDIT: take what you want, Jimmy. I don't give a f*#k!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 23, 2014 - 01:21am PT
I work with a lot of high school aged kids, and I'm so gratified to see the Bluering gene largely absent among them. They'd read his idiocy and immediately move on in disgust. Zero interest in bubble boy stereotypes. Real experience interests them. Individuals interest them. Fugazis? They can smell 'em a social network away. One second of 'lemme tell ya how the world works, kid' with all the Jews-do-this and Muslims-do-that and they're off to the texting races - even a 16 year old's got better things to do, ya know?

This fuels my optimism for the future.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2014 - 09:05am PT
Jew baiting has been a Christian parlor game for centuries bluey.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 23, 2014 - 09:18am PT

I seriously wonder what the fuk is wrong with some people that they feel so superior to others???...

Idiots, one and all!!!...

Making lists and all.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 23, 2014 - 09:50am PT

Permanantly ON THE LIST...

On topic, there is no way in hell any nation's populous that birthed Locker can be referred to as christian.

He keeps lists.

Don't the JWs keep a big one? 143,999 or so?

anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 23, 2014 - 10:25am PT
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 23, 2014 - 11:10am PT
Bruce k. Back me up. Locker is abusing his power, dictating his precious list over the heads of those he reguards as underlings. He is acting like GOD! Damn him. He will fall as Lucifer did before him.

Edit: Anita, sick your cat on Locker.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 23, 2014 - 11:15am PT


John 3:16 For God so loved (...YOU) the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 23, 2014 - 11:36am PT
You are useless.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 23, 2014 - 11:42am PT
Jimmy Carter is my idea of a real Christian.

There's a man that might invite me to explore the religion further.

Bloody pics of The Passion?

Um...not so much.

Action talks, either way.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 23, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
I think even Bill Maher would agree with you.
In an interview with Carter, you could see the effects of the spirit were having on Bill.

Funny though people that want to put Christians in a box. Like there's a certain mold one needs to conform to, then their OK. The idea of higher morals and works are a Christians personna just isn't right. Everyone screws up. Jesus didn't come to save the so called good or righteous. He came for the thieves and whores and the outcasts. After all you don't go to the doctor when your feeling good.
Anyone can be a Christian. The real clue is who thanks Him for their trials and tribulations!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 23, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
"Like there's a certain mold one needs to conform to, then their OK. "

Are we talking about Christians or Republicans?

The similarities in this regard are striking.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 23, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
Funny though people that want to put Christians in a box. Like there's a certain mold one needs to conform to, then their OK.


you mean a certain mold like Believe in me or burn in hell?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 23, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
Well if you don't want to believe in Him and an afterlife. And you abide in Atheist Evolution.
Then you understand ur body once was stardust. And when you die you'll prolly return to burning in a Star somewhere. The hell is not the burning though. It's being separated from God..

Edit: Or should I say, "The Evolution of the Atheist"
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
May 23, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
Atheist Evolution, lol, is that to go along with Atheist Germ Theory and Atheist Plate-Tectonics?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 23, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
Jimmy Carter is my idea of a real Christian
exactly
The new Pope seems to be re-inventing Catholicism. Good luck to him. We'll see how that goes. I hope he has a food taster.
one notable non-christian: the Dalai Lama.

Just because I'm a non-believer doesn't mean I can't appreciate believers who care for all humanity and respect others' beliefs.
Carter and the Dalai Lama are both inspirational in word and deed and neither gives a damn what you and I believe.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
May 23, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
LOSE.......
Idle time.....
Most of us are but one "God" away from being atheist anyway.
TY
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 23, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
Nor a muslim one, thank Zeus...

Last week's expose was an order to execute a woman (pregnant) for marrying a Christian and abandoning her Islam...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/senators-try-to-save-pregnant-woman-sentenced-to-death-in-sudan/

This week it's a shout out (by youth no less) for a public flogging of an Iranian actress for kissing a man in public... and blow back by progressives...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/10850212/Iranian-actress-Leila-Hatami-faces-public-flogging.html

Thank the Greek Pantheon (Aphrodite and Artemis esp, total babes!) for progressives and also the fact that there are enough of them in the world to care and to make a difference.

In the age of the internet and its awesomeness, no I don't think any Abrahamic religion in traditional form is going to survive the 21st century. Good riddance.

If it weren't so pathetic, it would be an roflmao!

.....

We hope go-b's children aren't be home-schooled.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 23, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 23, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
It's always funny when scripture is quoted at length. How does one even know if that is a proper translation? How do you know if the whole jesus walking on water wasn't mistranslated as jesus walking by the water? How can rational humans believe in any of that tripe espoused by the fairy tale Abrahamic religions?
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 23, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Rational humans can't and that's why faith is a conversation stopper.
TY
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 23, 2014 - 07:27pm PT

for realz
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 23, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
Why are people so distraught at their own mortality that huge mythologies are invented to dispute the facts of existence? Like mankind deserves some eternal reward for making it through life. This is the reward. Self-awareness and the ability to control one's destiny where as most life forms can not. Heaven and hell? Bullsh#t. Corporeal form gets broken down into reusable energy, unless preserved and stuffed into a coffin.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 23, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
Flippity, my granddaughter knows I'm Mr. Tickles! :)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 23, 2014 - 10:55pm PT
And to think go-b and crew get this... and accept it...


:)

And to think Christianity's been our default belief system in America for the last 200 years...

Wow.


Welcome to the global 21st century information age, Christians and Muslims!

(Remember, don't hate the messenger.)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 24, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
This behavior usually comes with a complete lack of taking basic social clues from others. They have no clue they're boring windbags. In fact, any inward introspection in themselves is cause for even more awful blabbery.
.

Morality and faith is indeed usually boring. Doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

And I don't get my morality from "social clues". This may be a symptom of current societal issues and morays.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 24, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Keep mocking. I'm cool with it.

And I've dived with bigger Morays than that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 24, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
I bet you dive on them constantly.

You think you're clever, right? That doesn't even make sense, dude.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 24, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
"It is taboo in our society to criticize a persons religious faith... these taboos are offensive, deeply unreasonable, but worse than that, they are getting people killed. This is really my concern. My concern is that our religions, the diversity of our religious doctrines, is going to get us killed. I'm worried that our religious discourse- our religious beliefs are ultimately incompatible with civilization.
The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.
When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs.We have a choice. We have two options as human beings. We have a choice between conversation and war. That's it. Conversation and violence. And faith is a conversation stopper.” Sam Harris
TY
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 24, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
Bruce, in that sense, I would say yes. Religious dogma is divisive and only serves to separate us , rather than bring us together. We are approaching a time when a religious zealot, sitting in a cave somewhere with a thousand dollar laptop, can unleash Armageddon. And he or she will do it because the warrant for such action is contained within their religion. In other words, it's not done in the name of God, but because of God. Faith.
Conversation stopper.
TY
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 24, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
What I'm suggesting is that there is nothing we need to believe on insufficient evidence in order to have deeply ethical and spiritual lives.
TY
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 24, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
just be thankful we aren't a muslim one (yet)

All you apostates would meet her fate.

http://weaselzippers.us/187085-husband-of-christian-woman-sentenced-to-death-in-sudan-for-her-faith-says-she-wont-convert-to-islam/


BTW where's Moch with her hashtag on this one?
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 24, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?” Sam Harris

By definition of a sermon, he implies a superiority of authority, which leaves little room for conversation.

If you think that it would be impossible to improve upon the Ten Commandments or the bible as a whole cloth, as a statement of morality, you really owe it to yourself to read some other scriptures. Once again, we need look no further than the Jains: Mahavira, the Jain patriarch, surpassed the morality of the Bible with a single sentence: 'Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being.' Imagine how different our world might be if the Bible contained this as its central precept. Christians have abused, oppressed, enslaved, insulted, tormented, tortured, and killed people in the name of God for centuries, on the basis of a theologically defensible reading of the Bible.
TY
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 24, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
all you fake "Christians" who live for nothing but fear and hatred; YOU are crucifying Him all over again; with your total ignorance and stupidity and paranoia you drive another nail each time you open your mouths


Listen here, as#@&%e, you'd rather have me be silent when people mistakenly defame and castigate my faith, than defend it?

I don't pretend to 'know' what Jesus or God wants, but I have a feeling based on my research. Battle the bad and promote the good.

damo62

Social climber
Brisbane
May 24, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
Bluey has " a feeling based on my research"

This is just getting good.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 24, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
Listen here, as#@&%e, you'd rather have me be silent when people mistakenly defame and castigate my faith, than defend it?

I rest my case.
TY
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 24, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
You people have no concept of faith or divinity. Everything to you is about you and your personal concepts of reality. That is normal, I suppose.

In all your personal wisdom, have you considered the concept of God? Ever?

He is not always nice, rarely is of late. But sometimes he shines through the darkness, usually just for a moment. God happens.

But it is indeed easier to be cool and mock God and appear hip. Whatever. I have tasted God's wisdom, I think, and I can see the truth.

Doesn't mean I'm smarter than anyone, I have just seen amazing stuff that can only be defined as divine.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
May 24, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
mo·res
ˈmôrˌāz/
noun
plural noun: mores

the essential or characteristic customs and conventions of a community.
"an offense against social mores"

Not eels, though the eel photo was funny as anything!
RyanD

climber
Squamish
May 24, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
Despite my better judgement I'll play along.


Bluering,


Why do you need to constantly compartmentalize people?

Muslims, gays, liberals, Jews, poor, etc.



It's seems to be the opposite way you would expect someone who follows Jesus' teachings to act, y'know love all gods creatures, treat others as equals and all that sh#t. You give people here many reasons not to share your beliefs.

How can humans ever expect to unite as equals with this hypocritical way of thinking you try to preach here?

How can divinity be achieved when the lords self proclaimed minions such as yourself claim that it's poor peoples fault they are poor? Gay peoples fault they are gay?




BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 24, 2014 - 11:02pm PT

Why do you need to constantly compartmentalize people?

Muslims, gays, liberals, Jews, poor, etc.

Don't all people compartmentalize themselves? Isn't that the way of the world, us and them?

I think Bluey is jus feeding the world as it feeds him? He's just stuck at pointing at the sin we instead of the sin. IMO.

go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 25, 2014 - 03:38am PT



...?

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 25, 2014 - 08:00am PT
that psychopath, Gawd, seems to be especially hard on the people of Africa as of late. What did they do to incur his horrendous wrath? Or is that he prefers caucasians, conservatives, and hillbilly ranchers over poor third world peoples?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 25, 2014 - 10:18am PT
mo·res
ˈmôrˌāz/
noun
plural noun: mores

the essential or characteristic customs and conventions of a community.
"an offense against social mores"

Not eels, though the eel photo was funny as anything!

funny indeed. I had the definition down at least...but i have dove with morays and witnessed their undersea mores.

This topic has run it's course for me. Believe what you want.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 25, 2014 - 11:11am PT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2014 - 11:45am PT
If Jesus had been packing maybe they wouldn't have been able to crucify him but.....if he hadn't died for our sins (an interesting concept) where would we be now?
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 25, 2014 - 11:53am PT
Is that like dying for our freedumbs? My sins aren't exactly worthy of the death penalty.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 25, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
Not according to the Sky Psycho. All your sins are worth dying for. Beware.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 25, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
Naaw. This ain't no Christian nation..

If it were, we'd all be living under the moral that slander is MURDER!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 25, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
If you have questions about how you can become a Christian, or want help in knowing how to live the Christian life, please write to: Grace Community Church, 13248 Roscoe Boulevard, Sun Valley, California 91352.

don't forget to bring the pastor some Money!!!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 25, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
please remove the word god from the dollar bill
please remove the prayer session before a senate meetings

the bible teaches us how much of a needy dick Jesus and his god are!

TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 25, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
What makes your unreasoned faith in your brand of mythology any different from any one else's? It is the definition of tribal loyalty.

"Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever.”
― Sam Harris, The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

TY
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
So now we have to get him on real beer
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 25, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Of the existence of Jesus in a historical sense, without a doubt someone existed during that time with that name and was a rabble rouser among both Jews and Romans. He had radical ideas that caused an uproar and led to his crucifixion, which was popular form of punishment at the time. How he obtained sky god status and divine powers is probably due to a mistranslation of old Aramaic.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
May 25, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
So Jesus loved everyone did he? Too bad his dad who has all the power is such an as#@&%e. He murdered EVERY human except one family headed by a drunk. What a guy! So much to love about Him!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 25, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody—not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms—had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

And exactly how are we different now?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 26, 2014 - 01:57am PT
#Man!That73rdPsalmistheShidizzle#
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
May 26, 2014 - 07:58am PT
The list of brilliant believers who have made positive contributions is endless.
That doesn't make believing any more sensible. My mom is a Christian and she is convinced that she is going to hell for her sins. I suggested she find another religion. One that doesn't have such a severe penalty for being human.
One of the most stupid things about Christianity is the tenant that people can be divided into two distinct camps. The ones that get to live forever in paradise, and the ones that get to rot in hell. What utter bullsh#t.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
May 26, 2014 - 08:43am PT

what about Layton Kor? or Tobin Sorenson? pretty impressive people, imo

You're forgetting our own Werner!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 26, 2014 - 10:16am PT

...nothing like going back to the nest! :)
dirtbag

climber
May 26, 2014 - 10:27am PT
Ashes or worm food pal...

Can't I be stuffed?
dirtbag

climber
May 26, 2014 - 10:34am PT
Ron...excellent!

I plan to be a burden in my old age, so why not plan to be a burden in death? Some guilt ridden heir will not only have to look at me after I bite it, he/she will also have to move me, dust me, and feel compelled to shoo the moths away.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 26, 2014 - 10:44am PT
I wish my remains to be cremated and my ashes scattered in the ventilation system of a government building.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 26, 2014 - 11:21am PT
One of the most stupid things about Christianity is the tenant that people can be divided into two distinct camps. The ones that get to live forever in paradise, and the ones that get to rot in hell. What utter bullsh#t.

LOL so true!
suck's because they actually walk around like their sh#t don't stink cuzz god told them they are his children!?!


I love all of the anti jesus comments.
we have found are common sense of place!

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 26, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 26, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
DrF you left this paragraph out.

At least one member of Adams' cabinet, Secretary of War James McHenry, is known to have protested the language of article 11, before its ratification.[18] A second treaty, the Treaty of Peace and Amity signed on July 4, 1805, superseded the 1796 treaty. The 1805 treaty did not contain the phrase "not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."[19][

Why are you in such denial over how this country was started?
The Constitution was obliviously written with the bible in mind. And what about all the famous prayers spoken and written by George Washington and other founders that even stated the name Jesus? And in the beginning everyone had to take an oath which included the name Jesus to be able to serve.

The freedoms YOU enjoy today are in fact emulated from the bible.

It is American to rebel. But to deny is what Base called "willful ignorance"
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 26, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
you won't hear a Muslim mocking Christ. In the Koran, Jesus is depicted as one of the major prophets.
There is a distinction to be made here. Muslims do not believe Jesus was the son of god. Nor that he ascended etc. Any more than they think similar nonsense about Muhammed.
They were prophets, given the word of god, but not godlike themselves.

There is another interesting irony. When Muhammed was fleeing persecution with his armies and tribe (everything was tribal, not religious) they found refuge with the Hebrew clans/tribes living in the remote oasis of Medina(then called Yathrib). His "Constitution of Medina" established rights and respect for the various tribes, specifically including the Jews. He adopted several Jewish traditions into the Muslim religion.

See Karen Armstrong: Muhammed: A Prophet for Our Time for a readable history of Muhammed and Islam.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 26, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
I still wonder what happen to Mohammed's horse?
did it also go into heaven?
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 26, 2014 - 03:17pm PT

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 26, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 27, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
white noise
TY
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
May 27, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Jeez, go-B.

No one reads that spam!

+100. If anyone was interested, then this spam would surely turn them away.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 27, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
...we should run to the Lord for He is good! :)
if we should run to god because he is good, Go-B, should we not then sprint for Frosted Flakes because "They're Great!"?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 27, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
doggone it
now you've gone and given go-beee the attention he's been seeking.
He'll never go away now.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 27, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
There are no images of Muhammed
Muslims don't portray animals or humans in their art. Any sentient beings.
You'd be equally blasphemous if you made a "flattering" image of Muhammed.
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
May 27, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Sorry this thread has degenerated. I'll try inject something that might be worth reading.

Let's do the Socratic things and define terms.

Is the question whether we are a "Christian" nation to be answered from a statistical, sociological, historical, de facto or de jure point of view?

The US of A is perhaps statistically Christian in the nominal sense of no other religion has a larger number of followers. Sociologically it is Christian since no other organized religion has had more influence on our culture and institutions. Historically, it was once upon a time more "Christian" than it is today, as the tide is going out on Christianity all over the world. From the above, perhaps the US of A is de facto Christian - by default. However, our Constitution makes clear we are NOT de jure a "Christian" nation at all.

More on the ebb and flow of Christianity as "official religion" of the US of A follows.

I've read the minutes of the pre-Revolutionary Pennsylvania General Assembly. Every duly elected member had to sign (and I don't think anyone gave it a second thought) an affirmation of their religious belief in a Christian God and theology.

I can't say when this requirement went out of vogue, but just image if someone got the idea today to pass a law requiring a religious litmus test for a person to serve in an American legislature. No way would that fly with anyone. And yet, such litmus tests were normal BITD of our Founding Fathers.

The overall direction of history does not favor the anti-scientific, Bible thumping point of view. Really, it is in full retreat - and only the brave and boisterous sounds of the thumpers on the last bastions are what we hear. The "Go-Bs" may be persistent and obnoxious but their time has past. The Grand Inquisitor lost.


rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 27, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
And of course it doesn't help that the Catholic Priests are too busy humping little boys instead of promoting their religion...

Oh locker, you are so ignorant. They do that because that is what god tell's them to do. It is an act of god.

And the best part is that all's they have to do is walk into the magic wooden phone booth and all sins are absolved. Then they get to transfer to a new job.

Look at all the wonderful christian's in politics who are constantly cheating on their wives, stealing, leading secret gay lives while they chair committees on good christian family values.

How dare you go against the Third Reich.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 27, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
Sugar coating the truth will only let you down, the truth will set you free!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 27, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
bubbles
ugly, ridiculous, stupid and totally protected by the law.
what do you think of adoration of images of jesus on the cross with blood running down his hands and from his crown of thorns?

We've been over this silly myth that the Founding Fathers were all Christians at least once on this thread. This is one of the reasons we have the First Amendment.
I debunked the myth a couple of weeks ago. Go and look it up for yourself.

I can't say when this requirement went out of vogue
By the time the Constitutional Convention finished its work.
The oath of office of the President of the United States. No swearing to a god.
Article II, Section 1, Clause 8
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:— “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Many Presidents have added "so help me god", many have not.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 27, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
God is black woman who is going get all medieval on the posers and hypocrites
saa

climber
Bleau, cham, pink granite coast
May 27, 2014 - 03:35pm PT


Bump

bump or Jim.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 27, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
I also love physics and the modern biological sciences


Ha!

You believe bubbles scrub.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 27, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
God is black woman who is going get all medieval on the posers and hypocrites

Brilliant Rob!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 27, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
God is black woman who is going get all medieval on the posers and hypocrites
That's a god I might believe in! Got some proof?
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 27, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
dumb Americans!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 27, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
Speration of church and state.

Get these radical Christians outta here....
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 27, 2014 - 09:35pm PT
That's a god I might believe in! Got some proof?

Nope. And neither does anyone else.

It's all just one big fairy tale.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 27, 2014 - 11:03pm PT

"Once Upon A Slime"

The story of the origin of life.

By Clink



Locker, don't steal it.

I do need an illustrator.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 27, 2014 - 11:19pm PT

but I love that duck wearing the Jesus sandals

The sect of Vegetarian Christians maintains Jesus went barefoot.
anton karuza

Sport climber
bellingham, WA
May 27, 2014 - 11:21pm PT
And these attributes were contributed by the tenants of the Judeo-Christian faith and its teachings. Freeing individuals from slavery and combatting tyranny from dictators, mostly atheistic, are the results of this religious philosophy and its simple commandments that are the basis for decency throughout history. I don't see people braving shark infested waters, pirates, and threats of death to go to other countries that eschew these principles. I, and the majority of our founders, believe that our rights come from God not from the government. What the government gives you can easily be taken away. You are seeing this happen now and the course is unstoppable.

The failure to follow this guidance can be seen in the increasing chaos in our nation and around the world. This is certainly the course that this nation has embarked on and we will all have to live with the results.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 27, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
How did you manage to pull both the shark and pirate cards in one post???
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 27, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
Christians - the Quakers, were the first to petition the newly minted American government to end slavery.

Quakers are not biblical literalists, however.

No, the biblical literalists of the early 19th century strongly supported slavery. They offered the following rationale: 1) It was in the bible, so it must be OK (I'm actually not kidding, here) and 2) it existed, so it must be the will of God. Not a logical Blue Ribbon winner, perhaps, but they needed something to shout from the pulpit to Southerners who were, for the most part, already very much on board with the program.

Christians were also the chief opponents to women's suffrage, the abolishment of laws against miscegenation, and...of course - the fight against equal marital, commercial, and employment rights for all Americans, regardless of sexual preference.

The comment on 'most dictators being atheists' is, of course, as much bullshit as it is irrelevant. The comment undoubtedly refers to Stalin. History's cruelest dictators claimed religious beliefs. Why, Hitler himself believed in the Almighty, as did Mussolini, but religiosity or lack thereof did little to inform the behavior of these tyrants.

klk

Trad climber
cali
May 27, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
these attributes were contributed by the tenants of the Judeo-Christian faith

i'm a tenant of chinese immigrants who bought this house before i moved up north.

not sure about their church.

TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 27, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
Freeing individuals from slavery and combating tyranny from dictators, mostly atheistic, are the results of this religious philosophy and its simple commandments that are the basis for decency throughout history.

Only partially true and the reverse is far more common. Religion has enslaved and killed more people than it has ever freed from "tyranny". Despot leaders, like Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler did what they did because of political tyranny, not because they might have been atheist. If fact most were not atheist. Organized religion is the basis for totalitarianism, in it's purest form; capable of convicting people of thought crimes while they sleep.


"Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can f*#king die and leave North Korea!"
Christopher Hitchens
TY

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 27, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
It's safe to say that religious intolerance, usually in the form of fundamentalism (America, Iran, etc), or absolutist intolerance (Inquisition) has been the scourge of humanity.

Even as the Born Agains and other bigots decry our society's growing intolerance for their intolerance, they continue to carry this proud tradition forward, to Bear this Cross as my peeps used to say, into what will hopefully be a mercifully brief future for them. Their imminent removal from society has been long prophesized. Thy Will Be Done, Lord!(although I hope its just through the current high level of attrition).

In stark contrast, moderate religions - Quakers, Unitarians, today's Prezbies, MLK's Baptists, for example, have probably had the net effect of improving social justice, at least in the last couple of centuries or so.

Given that the US and many other nations with decent social justice track records (not perfect, but decent) have been secular democracies for some time, now, I'd say it simply cannot be argued that religion is necessary for right moral action. We have social welfare and social justice institutions now that arguably make religion largely superfluous as seats of education and promotion for same, although they remain a pretty good place to get a date for the true believer.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 27, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
Religion has enslaved and killed more people than it has ever freed from "tyranny"
The Spanish (Roman Catholic) conquest of South America and enslavement of the indigenous people for instance.
The South African christians who built and maintained apartheid.
The mostly Lutheran/Catholic Nazis and the Jews, homosexuals and mentally disabled.
All the christian Europeans who built empires and the US on the backs of slaves. And the Muslim traders who sold the slaves out of Africa.
The fundamentalist christian men who still hold their wives in second class status.
The Mormon polygamists ditto.
And that's just recent history.
The tyranny of the "religious" White Man's Burden.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
May 27, 2014 - 11:55pm PT


I've wondered where black people came from if God killed everyone except a white dude and his family. Perhaps they evolved?
No, that can't be right. Perhaps the bible holds the truth: Noah got drunk and passed out naked. His son Ham saw his genitals so God cursed Ham's descendants by turning them into slaves. This was another reason Christian slave owners gave to defend their barbaric and "un-freedomy" practice.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 28, 2014 - 12:03am PT
How about the historical and current subjugation of women by "religion? That's more than half the human race right there...
TY
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 28, 2014 - 12:05am PT
You guys raggin on religion are missing the target.

Religion is just another way azzoles ruin things for people.

If you go back to the basics of any religion there is plenty of good stuff there. Then someone comes along and turns it into something else, then uses it as a justification for injustice (to say the least).

Religion has at times been a great civilizing force.


At any rate religions is never going away, so figure out a way to live with the good of it and isolate the azzholes who use it to spread injustice.


Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 01:01am PT
As has been evidenced before on this very thread, neither humanism nor the scientific method sprung from religion. Both had entirely secular beginnings - starting with the Greeks, and probably much earlier, although historical evidence is scant in that regard.

Christianity preserved some of the ancient texts, even as it largely killed nearly all scientific progress for the better part of a thousand years (in Europe, that is).

dirtbag

climber
May 28, 2014 - 01:15am PT

How did you manage to pull both the shark and pirate cards in one post???

LOL!!!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 01:32am PT
Ah, Chief, yer a one note song and a disappointment.

Read my posts and weep in agreement.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
May 28, 2014 - 01:40am PT
I will learn to live with religion when it learns to let me live.
How can it guide me when it is wrought with so many misguided by it?
If there's a God, and He lets us choose the most basic of things (that being whether or not to believe) then what makes us think he has any interest in getting involved in the rest of our lives?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 01:50am PT
That Honest Abe's God quote should serve as proof of His existence is an argument I haven't come across before, that much must be said.

Then again, I haven't stumbled across a miniature of Rodin's The Thinker sculpted out of a turd, either.

Both proof positive that the world still harbors many surprises, even as life's autumn sets in.

thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 28, 2014 - 02:04am PT
Then again, I haven't stumbled across a miniature of Rodin's The Thinker sculpted out of a turd, either.

life might change if you did, though. like you might start worshipping it or something, maaan.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 03:02am PT
I would wonder at the source of its creation.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 28, 2014 - 03:07am PT
The Book of Lies is only useful to lying politicians. The rest of y'all believers are unfortunate victims of childhood indoctrination to a cult.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 28, 2014 - 09:41am PT
imagine that, another pedophile cover-up by the catholic church. big surprise.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 28, 2014 - 09:52am PT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 10:04am PT
It's more of a penlight/sea monkey kind of thing with the Chief.

Not complicated.
dirtbag

climber
May 28, 2014 - 10:36am PT
I don't think the issue is whether current leaders, or previous leaders, are/were Christians, or even whether a majority of the population, is Christian.

The issue is whether those who have power should have the right to turn the government into a Christian state, or even a religious state. Getting back to the Supreme Court decision that sparked this thread, the Court blew it because they sanctioned exactly that kind of use of power.
dirtbag

climber
May 28, 2014 - 10:44am PT
I actually think that as a whole, culturally we are a Christian nation.
dirtbag

climber
May 28, 2014 - 10:46am PT
And I say that as someone who is at most, slightly agnostic.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 28, 2014 - 10:49am PT
It's 2014...


...The Declaration of Independence adopted by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776.
dirtbag

climber
May 28, 2014 - 10:55am PT
On the other hand, those who want to claim the freedoms and rights embodied in the constitution, Declaration of Independence, etc directly result from traditional Judeo Christian values of the founding fathers also should acknowledge that Judeo Christian values are responsible for those documents darker elements, e.g., slavery. Can't have it both ways.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 28, 2014 - 11:01am PT
" if you ignore the rape, genocide, slavery and murder the Bible is all about love. Oh, and a zombie." -lol



The Churf learned a little facetiousness and he 'a running with it. Churf, facetiousness isn't really a winning tactic. It's fine for a little witty banter,now and then, but eventually it reveals itself to be without substance.

From day 1, religion hasn't got anything right.

Religion has caused millions of deaths.
Religion has never saved a single life.
Religion is used to justify poverty and oppression.
Religion is used to scare children.
Religion is xenophobic.
Religion is the opiate that protects the power elite.
Religion is hate .
Religion is racism.
Religion is a sad relic of ignorant minds and sociopaths.

Mother Theresa is also called the whore of Calcutta. She did more to protect pedophiles and the elite than she ever did for the poor.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 28, 2014 - 11:01am PT
It's in the last 14 years that the GOP really gave christianity a bad name in the US. It's become a punch-line to a bad joke.
WBraun

climber
May 28, 2014 - 11:16am PT
A real Christian you would never recognize.

All you see with your defective eyeballs is your own projected stupid selves onto the world outside of your own self.

You are the world as you make it.

But then there is the world as it is.

Which you stupid fools completely miss .......
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 28, 2014 - 11:36am PT
Nobel was an armaments manufacturer.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 28, 2014 - 11:45am PT
Stanford saves and works modern miracles. So thank God for Stanford and other smart fools.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 28, 2014 - 11:47am PT
I like our President Onama but it seemed like the Peace Prize was just political. Can we ignore the power-elite and politicians now. I agree that they both use religion for their own purposes. So what?

'Nonetheless it moves' - Galileo

Christians believe in Witches and Demons and gods eternal punishment for thought-crimes. That's your people, churf.

(Leland Stanford was a true dick)
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 28, 2014 - 11:48am PT
this thread is truly moronic, even by st's absurdly generous standards.

strong werk, folks
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 28, 2014 - 11:49am PT
The Bible and Christianity are truly moronic. Weak sauce pap.
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 28, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Perhaps you shouldn't follow anyone. Take the lead.

Just a thought.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
May 28, 2014 - 11:55am PT
Follow Flip and get the strong sauce.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 28, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
He was a preacher fergawdssake. He didn't really go to any mountaintop.

Churf, do you accept the immaculate conception of the Virgin of Guadalupe? Or do you think that it was a useful lie to convert Indians?

klk

Trad climber
cali
May 28, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
Unsurprisingly, a non-trivial percentage of the quotations posted here by The Chief and others are spurious.

For instance, we have no evidence that Washington ever wrote or spoke that "without Bible" meme.

SImply googling and cutting-and-pasting internet meme "quotations" is a good way to make yourself look foolish.

http://www.mountvernon.org/educational-resources/encyclopedia/spurious-quotations

Not that any of it has any bearing upon the original topic.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 28, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
“Religious moderation is the product of secular knowledge and scriptural ignorance.”
― Sam Harris,

Religious moderation is a very dangerous thing; for it provides cover for the extremist within any fringe group and sets the stage for a slippery slope of descendancey into a ridged, repressive, totalitarian religious state. It is time that religious folks apply the same intellectual honesty in their exploration of the truth of their faith that they use in navigating their day to day lives. We are not a Christian Nation, fundamentally speaking. One cannot find CLEAR, unequivocal prescience advocacy of God or divine guiding light in the written instructions for the workings of government. This was done purposely to avoid the faith based corundum which allows people to imagine that their concerns are moral when they are highly immoral - that is, when pressing these concerns inflicts unnecessary and appalling suffering on innocent human beings. This explains why Christians expend more "moral" energy opposing abortion than fighting genocide. It explains why they are more concerned about human embryos than about the lifesaving promise of stem-cell research. And it explains why they can preach against condom use in sub-Saharan Africa while millions die from AIDS there each year.
TY
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
May 28, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
it's as foolish as the meme of the Marine punching out the gay, atheist, communist, liberal college professor because god was too busy protecting other marines in iraq to smote him with lighting, lol
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 28, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
Religious moderation is a very dangerous thing; for it provides cover for the extremist within any fringe group and sets the stage for a slippery slope of descendancey into a ridged, repressive, totalitarian religious state.

Hear, hear.

It also has a way of serving as an excuse or distraction for not acquiring a modern, rock-solid, science education and then coming to terms with this education which is hard-won and can take years.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
The religious may attempt to absolve themselves of immoral action - marriage equality discrimination, subjugation of women, monetary support of anti-gay violence in Africa and the like, by invoking "God's will", but one is always free to choose, and therefore one is always accountable.

When I see all my newly married gay friends here in WA - people who no longer fear not being able to visit their loved one should critical illness befall them, not being able to pass on their legacy to their children or surviving spouse, or having to pay more in taxes than straight married couples - the list is a long one, there is no doubt in my mind that fundamentalist Christianity attempts to make America a worse place.

In a country already fully stressed at the spectre of medical bankruptcy, job loss, and a host of other daunting threats to our well being, fundamentalist Christians inject much unnecessary added conflict by their timeless efforts to control the lives of others, most especially non-cult members.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 28, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
Jeez, the Chief's even got klk responding to him.

nothing to do with the chief, specifically, it's just that it's really painful to watch folks making specifically historical claims without doing the kind of source criticism that actual makes historical claims testable.

that's just a stone i roll uphill on pretty much every thread on st that involves history. most folks will ignore it. but like most of my posts, it's aimed more at lurkers than at the actual posters.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 28, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
Ahhh Sandals....

[Click to View YouTube Video]
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 28, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
Turning your back on Christ is truly moronic!

Yup!
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
May 28, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
Propaganda.

Churf, I doubt you will find anyone here ( except me) who wants to outlaw religion. I'm willing to agree to protect freedom of religion as long as y'all agree to protect freedom from religion. Keep it in your clubhouse and out of government as is the Law.

No comment about the Virgin Birth in Guadalupe?
How about Torquemada and the Inquisition?
The Salem Witch Trials?

The Churf cannot debate.

Go-B are you in the god profession? Does your money or status come from special insight into the will of your god?

Debate me you cowards!
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 28, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
Like I posted, appears KLK, according to your thought process, MLK Jr, JFK AND FDR, were foolish individuals at best.

i'm not actually participating in the "religion is good/religion is bad" part of this thread. it's painful enough just to watch.

i was cautioning you and others in this thread about the casual use of internet memes as if they were real historical evidence.

a significant chunk of the "quotes" from historical celebrities that get trotted out in these inatardfests are actually spurious-- that is to say, they are fabrications or misattributions or misquotations or had a first-order of referential meaning very different from what the meme version intends.

this is especially true in the "christian nation" debates, because a number of activists back in the 1980s produced a wide array of quotation manuals filled with inaccurate or spurious quotations that were widely distributed among conservative christian churches and institutions to use in letters to the editor or wherever. despite the fact that many of them have been systematically debunked, they continue to find their way in to the hands of well-meaning but confused folks who paste them up all over the tubes.

that geo washington meme is a notorious example.




klk

Trad climber
cali
May 28, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
Their foundations of morality (religion) and leadership are well known.

"Christianity" was that foundation.

According to many here on ST, "Christianity" is a complete joke and fairy tale.

i'm not getting involved in the "christianity is good/ christianity is bad" debate anymore than i'm getting involved in the "religion" one. but if i were looking for moral exemplars, jfk wouldn't be at the top of my list-- the guy was young, rich and good looking, but morality and ethics (or competence, for that matter) weren't his strong suits.

and atheists do appear to be statistically over-represented here on st. in the us at large, they are an insignificant chunk of the voting population.

the likeliest effect of the vocal presence of atheists here on st is to help reinforce the popular but mistaken belief of christian conservatives that christians are a persecuted minority in the us.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
Oh, you mean the Catholic hospitals that deny required Obamacare family planning and end of life (where legal) services - basically flaunting the law - for religious reasons?

The ones that are gobbling up other hospitals because their religious tax exempt status grants them a significant competitive advantage?

Those hospitals?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 28, 2014 - 02:26pm PT
and atheists do appear to be statistically over-represented here on st. in the us at large, they are an insignificant chunk of the voting population.

IF atheists are indeed over-representing on a climbers forum, can you venture a reason why?

is it because atheists like to climb rocks or is it because they lack good moral character

while the percentage of Americans who state with certainty that they have no reason to believe in spirits such as gods, their numbers are growing rapidly and especially among young voters who will become the major voting demographic in the future

far more people would say they are Agnostics or not sure about gods, and recent polling strongly shows that Americans are increasingly less likely to belong to any particular religion

evolution of the reasoning human brain? that's my guess

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
That, and once you've had a friend die, you can no longer skirt the question as to whether or not you'll ever see them again 'in heaven' or whatever.

Climbers seem to face this issue more often than the general population, perhaps.

I was an atheist before that event happened in my life, but I've heard several accounts where the death of a loved one made all the religious fairy tales come crashing down.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
May 28, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
And here I always thought the Masons and the Deists founded the United States? Maybe the Anglicans and Presbyterians had a hand in it too, but the rest of 'em? No way.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
May 28, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
The founding fathers had it right when cautioning not to mix religion and politics. After all, likes repel and opposites attract.

Fundamentalists of any religious or political persuasion leave the logic part of my brain screaming for the off switch.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 28, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
No comment about the Virgin Birth in Guadalupe?
Explain please. I'm unclear exactly what you are referring to.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
I've got another fanboi.

Coz, wherever you are, move it on over.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
For their climbing, perhaps, if you're into that kind of thing, but not for their religious beliefs.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 28, 2014 - 03:28pm PT

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 28, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
"Of course the only acceptable science is that which goes along with your opinion on certain issues."

That might be true, but it's pretty easy to disprove someone's view with a reasonable set of supporting scientific facts (if you have the inclination).

Sure beats the hell out of trying to argue with someone who bases their views on religious fairy tales. How do you argue with that kind of sh#t?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 28, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
science is such a hypocrite
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
May 28, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
The core of science is not controlled experiment or mathematical modeling; it is intellectual honesty. Religion cannot, by definition, say the same.
TY
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
I'm reminded of one of those little, wind up Godzillas. The kind with the mouth sparks.

After about three windings....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 28, 2014 - 07:02pm PT
I love how this site's auto-bleeper forces one to type in ScandiPidgeon.
raw

Mountain climber
Malibu
May 28, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
Virgin birth is not only possible, I believe it has occurred many times in the past. All that is required is ejaculation in the vicinity, and then a little helping hand with the ooze--if that. Penetration is certainly *not* necessary. If a turkey baster can do it for female couples, so could a wee pipette. One can also imagine scenarios involving sodomy....
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 28, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
Virgin birth is not only possible, I believe it has occurred many times in the past. All that is required is ejaculation in the vicinity, and then a little helping hand with the ooze--if that. Penetration is certainly *not* necessary. If a turkey baster can do it for female couples, so could a wee pipette. One can also imagine scenarios involving sodomy....


gets my vote for troll of the year!

well done, raw
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
May 28, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
The "Immaculate Conception" refers to Mary being born without original sin, not her being a virgin.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
Well....original sin is even harder to fathom. We all come into the world with an inherited sin because of Adam's rebellion in the Garden of Eden. I don't think that Quenten Tarantino could come up with a senario to match that.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
May 28, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
Weird all right, but everything is cool now because God setup his only son (sadly He could no longer have children after Jesus) to be murdered so that He could then, and only then, forgive us of our sins. I assume pre-Jesus most everyone went to hell.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 29, 2014 - 12:15am PT
The core of science is not controlled experiment or mathematical modeling; it is intellectual honesty. Religion cannot, by definition, say the same.
TY

The voice of age, reason, and wisdom. Too bad nobody else will recognize it.

Wasn't there a band named Blind Faith?

Thanks Tony, hope to see you soon.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 29, 2014 - 09:20am PT
the power of christ compells u locker!

u have been annointed by the power of climber shoe glue!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
May 29, 2014 - 10:38am PT


...My friends my greatest thrill is to see you top out in Heaven and hear your TR from the vista of New Jerusalem! :)
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 29, 2014 - 10:43am PT
the power of females compells u locker!

be sure to read the word!
be ready for the new jeruselem!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2014 - 10:47am PT
Yeah it was kind of a troll Dingus, although it's what I believe. Getting satisfaction from the number of posts exceeding the total of all the posts from my climbing related threads over the last year....proves a point to me.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 29, 2014 - 10:52am PT
A good argument will always get a higher post count than a great climb.


That's why bolt wars got more attention in camp than a first ascent put up in good style.....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2014 - 10:56am PT
I know that, arguing on the internet is fast replacing shopping as the top leisure time activity in America.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 29, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
this is worth posting again I'd say. Its a disturbing thought that moderates are at least as dangerous as the fun dies but you really have to wonder. Like I 've asked before, met always with silence from the good christians here on ST, why the meek acquiescence when some completely unethical and intellectually dishonest jackass like Ted Nugent, Rick Santorum or Pat Robertson claims your faith as justification for completely immoral behaviour?

Its pretty week sauce when you can't answer such a simple question, and it suggests the above quote may be right. Even the moderates perhaps are merely tribal loyalists after all, concerned only about the concentration and maintenance of power.
I was going to say that this comment is pretty asinine, but I'll backtrack and say that it merely comes off like a Fox News "reporter" who pulls a statement out of his ass and reports it as fact when it is very clearly opinion, and not very well thought out opinion at that.

Are you suggesting that moderates need to build a soap box and shout louder than the extremists? Isn't that the opposite of moderation? News outlets don't report moderation; they report the tintilating. So are moderate Muslims equally dangerous as Al Quaeda even though they don't engage in acts of terror, don't kill maim, preach hatred? Sure they post all sorts of press releases condemning these acts, but no one really listens or cares. Is that the gist of your theory?

Edit: Actually, let me apologize in advance (or is it after the fact) for the asinine comment. Not a polite or productive way of starting what should be an intelligent, reasonable discussion. Sorry Bruce. My bad.
jstan

climber
May 29, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
Try this on for size. For a small demographic ST is both a social medium and is a game. The first
is frequently stated up front and the second makes itself apparent in the very visible contests
between posters. Let's look at the statistics.



Games usage has fallen recently from 25 million units to about 17 million. Perhaps this is related
to the decrease in the use of four letter words on ST over the last few months. Four letter words
are called into play at the ends of contests.

On the other hand social media has ballooned since 2008, the start of the economic recession.
When times are tough people tend to value relationships more, and it might be expected that four
letter words will be used less. There seems to be a migration away from contests/games and
toward social equilibrium.

The above model is quite sketchy but I would ask the following. Do you suppose we can separate
posters into two groups?

Social people and

Gamers?

The trend seems to be toward social and away from gamers. If so we might expect trip reports to
become an increasing share.

Captain...or Skully

climber
May 29, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
"week sauce"? WTF?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 29, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
DMT

You're a fast thinker. The first graph shows the video game market (stagnation/decline). The second graph below shows the social media (growth)...

Not even the following video belongs to the video game category:

Django Reinhardt - 'Manoir de Mes Reves"
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Lol...
jstan

climber
May 29, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
Dingus:
I don't have any personal interest in TR. The ones I read have been interesting.

Surely you don't think every expression on ST has to be self interested?
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
May 29, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 1, 2014 - 06:19am PT

If Jesus wasn't bona fide by God - “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Attested to by the Law and the Prophets, and through the working of miracles, of His virgin birth, death and resurrection, well - He wasn't who He claimed to be!

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 1, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
this guy jesus gets around!?!
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 1, 2014 - 10:00pm PT
I'm still sinning. Maybe the rest of them could try dying for my sins, too. Minus the zombie returns.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Jun 1, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 1, 2014 - 10:22pm PT
I'm still sinning.

Flip Flop, without proof I don't believe you. What sins? It would be a shame if someone was to die for nothing. What if you are really a good person.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 1, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
I'm a blasphemer and coveter of neighbors' wives. I have fornicated with harlots and adulteresses. I worship idols of dirt, mud and worms before the god of Abraham. I have spilled my seed on the dusty ground. There must be more but all this sinning has made me tired. Pray for me.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jun 2, 2014 - 06:03am PT
Jesus Christ, that's like David Hasselhoff 'Liking' his drunk video on YouTube.

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 2, 2014 - 06:12am PT
FLip, You would have been toast in the Old Testament. Might have been one of Jesus' BFFs with those sins< not the kind of behavior that would piss him off. Definitely redemption worthy.
Pate

Trad climber
Jun 2, 2014 - 06:26am PT

sometimes you find christ in the strangest of places.......

pucker up go-b and meet your maker.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 2, 2014 - 06:26am PT
I'll bet even Locker is only a lightweight sinner.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 2, 2014 - 07:10am PT

It blows my mind that India can be a hub of high tech engineering and also maintain something as backwards as the caste system and allow horrific crimes against women.

Kudos to this girl for her achievements!

This is from a another thread but is an example of hardcore sinning.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 2, 2014 - 11:12am PT
lol!

locker Jesus compels you to bring more art to the table!!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Jun 2, 2014 - 11:19am PT
I have spilled my seed on the dusty ground. There must be more but all this sinning has made me tired. Pray for me.

TMI
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 2, 2014 - 11:42am PT
Pate!

you posted, you are back!
barry ohm

Trad climber
escondido, ca
Jun 2, 2014 - 11:42am PT
I worked on the Micron Plant in Utah years ago, Going there I was wondering how these Mormons treated outsiders. I found out their is three groups of people in Utah, Mormons, Mormon haters and people who dont care. Seems the Mormon haters are the worst group because the other twp groups of people are busy living life,
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 2, 2014 - 12:06pm PT

...the Bible answers that one! :)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 2, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 2, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
I worked on the Micron Plant in Utah years ago, Going there I was wondering how these Mormons treated outsiders. I found out their is three groups of people in Utah, Mormons, Mormon haters and people who dont care. Seems the Mormon haters are the worst group because the other twp groups of people are busy living life,

So; Religious = bad

Religion hater = very bad

Religious hater = worst


This thread is so educational.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jun 2, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
I found out their is three groups of people in Utah, Mormons, Mormon haters and people who dont care. Seems the Mormon haters are the worst group because the other twp groups of people are busy living life,
Seriously. I don't really get all the animosity in this thread. You'd figure that people would have more compelling issues in their life than to dwell on the private beliefs of others.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jun 2, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
Guess you're not gay.

Or don't know anyone who is.

Christian beliefs are anything but private.

Wish they were.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jun 2, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
^^^
That's for proving my point. I guess you're a homophobe too.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 2, 2014 - 01:04pm PT

I googled "What happens when you die". One of the top sites had the name "The real truth". Here's what Google's "The real truth" said:

What Does Happen?

Now let’s examine Scripture more closely. The Bible can be proven to be God’s Word, and it is His Instruction Manual to mankind. It provides all the answers necessary to enjoy a wonderful, happy and successful way of life.

First, the Bible is emphatic and clear that everyone dies: “For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again” (Ecc. 3:19-20). This reveals that a human being simply dies and returns to dust like any other living creature on Earth.

The Bible provides even more detail of what happens after death. Notice Psalm 146: “His [man’s] breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish” (vs. 4). A human being no longer thinks once he is dead; he simply is not conscious.

Now read Ecclesiastes 9: “For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten” (vs. 4-5). Again, the Bible is clear about the state of the dead.

But this leads to the age-old question asked in the book of Job: “If a man die, shall he live again?” (14:14). The second half of the verse begins to answer the question: “…all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.”

No surprise GoB mentioned Google. Is the server which is driving Google the same server as the server driving GoB? I remember someone mentioning a grand server of life...
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Jun 4, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
For anyone who is still agnostic on this question, check out how our nations justice system works.

On the one hand, a 14 yr old girl isn't old enough to consent to having sex with her 17 yr old girlfriend Kate Hunt, who needs to be punished like an adult for it.

On the other hand, two 12 yr old girls are old enough to consent to murder, and to charged as adults for the crime (www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justice/Wisconsin-girl-stabbed).

Make sense?

Yes, we are a "Christian" nation.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 8, 2014 - 05:52am PT



Deuteronomy 27:5 Moreover, you shall build there an altar to the Lord your God, an altar of stones; you shall not wield an iron tool on them. 6 You shall build the altar of the Lord your God of uncut stones, and you shall offer on it burnt offerings to the Lord your God; 7 and you shall sacrifice peace offerings and eat there, and rejoice before the Lord your God. 8 You shall write on the stones all the words of this law very distinctly.”

...I guess you could say use of uncut stones is God's way of saying don't edit His revealed Word to make it null and void! Man can make a garden, God is a wilderness! :)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2014 - 07:44am PT
I'm glad someone brought this back to the first page....just where it belongs on Sunday!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 8, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
if Jesus loves me so much, why does he want me dead?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 8, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
And the Christians go crazy.....



Al Arabyia News

For the first time in history, Islamic prayers and readings from the Quran will be heard at the Vatican on Sunday, in a move by Pope Francis to usher in peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

Francis issued the invitation to Israeli President Shimon Peres and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas during his visit last week to Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 8, 2014 - 08:20pm PT

For the first time in history, Islamic prayers and readings from the Quran will be heard at the Vatican on Sunday, in a move by Pope Francis to usher in peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

Good! maybe by reading the quran the catholics will become a little more wiser about their history??

usher in peace??? i dont think so that wont happen for a thousand years!!!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 8, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
you say grenades. i say palm leaves.


remember the pope doesnt speak for all christians
Binks

climber
Uranus
Jun 8, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
i prefer paganism to any of the Big Three insanities\insecurities from the ME. Hinduism is OK too. that and Voodoo
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 10, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
I haven't see anybody mention it, but the way we know the founding fathers did not support Christianity, is that they violated the FIRST commandment, in the most public way possible, when they elevated Geo Washington to the level of a GOD.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Jun 10, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 10, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
^^^ well i was a rape baby. my dad was 21, and my mom was 16. i consider that rape.Sure glad abortion wasn't legal back in 63. My moms family was soo distrought, i know my grandpa would have aborted me. But i turned out to be his favorite.

Do you know How many pregnacies happen through rape?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 10, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
Everyone knows that a woman's body has a way of shutting' that sorta thing down don't ya know

Hmmm. if a womans body knows to shut down when there is an unwanted pregnacy. Then if a woman decides to have an abortion when her body is clearly going through with it.

isn't that breaking somebodys law, or atleast moral?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 11, 2014 - 07:29am PT
Dingus Christ has compelled you to post a tr on rock climbing.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jun 11, 2014 - 11:33am PT
"^^^ well i was a rape baby. my dad was 21, and my mom was 16. i consider that rape.Sure glad abortion wasn't legal back in 63. My moms family was soo distrought, i know my grandpa would have aborted me. But i turned out to be his favorite.

Do you know How many pregnacies happen through rape?"

Now THERE's a strong argument in favor of rape babies.

Ladies? Oh wait...

Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jun 11, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
Everyone knows that a woman's body has a way of shutting' that sorta thing down don't ya know
[profanity alert] jesuus f*#king christ. Is he out of his mind?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 11, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
Todd Akin's certainly not out of his mind.
He's got God on his side
Akin earned a Master of Divinity degree in 1984 from Covenant Theological Seminary where he studied Greek, Hebrew, and a socially conservative interpretation of the Christian scriptures. He did not enter the ministry.[10]

Akin is a longtime pro-life activist and former member of the board of Missouri Right to Life.[11] He was arrested for trespass at least eight times between 1985 and 1988 while demonstrating against abortion in front of abortion clinics in Illinois and Missouri.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jun 11, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Are you sure?
She is a woman and she's black.

:-D
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Jun 11, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
Thanks, HT, for the Akin clarification.

And no, Blue, I don't wish you away. Was your folks' procreative act consensual?
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jun 11, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
Sure glad abortion wasn't legal back in 63.

Yes, because it never happened when it was illegal...
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 11, 2014 - 09:09pm PT

...everything next to God is just second best!
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 11, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
well i was a rape baby. my dad was 21, and my mom was 16. i consider that rape.

I hope you weren't being trivial, the aftermath of rape is hideous.

Abortion for convenience is pathetic, but rape babies, that is an entirely different matter, abort.

Rape, any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person

Along with being murdered, the ultimate denial of choice. There is no going back for a person who is raped, they can go on, but will carry the scars for life. A rapist should not see the light of day.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 12, 2014 - 05:28pm PT


...fer sure Jesus is coming back again and every day we're one day closer!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 12, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
^^^ is that a selfie Glanton? you sure are proud of that pic


but rape babies, that is an entirely different matter, abort.

i think that was the deciding arguement back in the 80's, Rowe vs Wade.i cant find statistics for how many rape babies since. But there have been 60 million abortions in the US since. 40% of which were 20-25yro young college educating women. These women obiviously knew what they were getting into. Maybe they didn't, if they happened to have to much Jim Beam?
So there isn't a law against abortion, but shouldn't there at least be a penalty, a fine maybe? i mean, my god we've stopped 60 million human beings from walking this life. Doesn't that feel wrong to you? Now countries are aborting just because the fetus tests to be a girl, and not a boy! Isn't that major bigotry! parents even want to abort if their fetus is diagnosed with Autism. But just to abort because you forgot protection, that deserves a spanking! or at LEAST a fine!


i was conceived from my 16yro mom high from my 21yro dad's bottle of Jim Beam in the back of a 54' Chevy. i consider that a form of rape..
There's a fine line between what's consensual, and being talked into it in the final moment, and waking up the next day with regret. My parents got married because their families said it was the proper thing to do. They had 2 more girls and got divorced after 5yrs. IF i would have been aborted, they wouldn't have gotten married and had my sisters. And my sisters wouldnt have had their 3 daughters. We're all pretty happy to be alive! And so are our families.

That's why i'm against abortion. NOT by someone else's opinion. But through my own experience.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 12, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
my god we've stopped 60 million human beings from walking this life. Doesn't that feel wrong to you?

I find it bizarre that your ilk feel that our country would be better off with another 60 million people.

And a lot of the reason for such things is that your group absolutely forbids education regarding procreation, does everything it can to keep effective birth control out of the hands of the sexually active....

Inasmuch as your policies directly result in many many abortions, how does that make you feel??

And now you are talking about punishment for women who choose things you don't like.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jun 13, 2014 - 03:50am PT
my god we've stopped 60 million human beings from walking this life.

And how many women are still able to "walk this life" because they didn't have a coathanger abortion? And how many of those feti would've gone on to be a burden on society or commit crimes because they were raised in an uncaring or unhealthy environment? And how many of them would've been beaten, drugged, raped and/or murdered due to child abuse? I'm guessing that the world would've been a better place if Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or any other maniacal dictator would've been aborted...

Part of your problem is that you believe that these aborted feti are fully cognitive functioning humans. There is no conclusive proof or consensus on when a fetus can be considered a viable human with all the rights we bestow on our citizens. The religious wrong would have us believe it is at conception because they think god says so. But I don't believe in your god and I don't want you forcing me to live my life according to your fairy tale's dicta. If you believe god is going to send you to a lake of fire for doing such, then don't do it. It's my understanding that xtians believe god is the ultimate judge and he says "judge not" blah, blah, blah. We have the right to believe what we want in this country and not be forced to adhere to a religion that is actually in the minority worldwide.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jun 13, 2014 - 04:42am PT
Millions more if you count the bombings. God is judging you, so be afraid. Be very, very afraid. Ha! :)
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 13, 2014 - 06:03am PT
There is no conclusive proof or consensus on when a fetus can be considered a viable human

That is why a "retro" abortion should be an option until the age of 18, to verify that viability.

"You are going on time out, and if you keep it up we are going to retro-abort you."
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 13, 2014 - 04:55pm PT


...don't be stupored look upon Jesus!
Flashy P's Mom

Sport climber
wherever your trailer is parked
Jun 13, 2014 - 05:32pm PT
If glanton isn't Pate, I'm Mother Theresa.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Jun 13, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
"Bob" dobbs does not approve
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:00am PT
"...Jesus is calling you"..


jesus screens his calls...he never picks up.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:03am PT
In the 1970's, while trying to just get through another LSD trip, Jesus called to me. A very interesting experience. Acid always just stressed me out. Like being in a trap you can't get out of. Pure poison it is.

Anyhow, I could not abide an entity that would come to me only in such a degraded state. At the that time I just told him to check back when I was sober. He never did.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:08am PT
i really think when the sperm enters the egg and begins to mesh the DNA that first cell that is a combination of the two parents is when a new life has begun.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2014 - 08:10am PT
Spider....Jesus calling is okay, it doesn't tar someone with being in an altered state or having some sort of mental impairment. The same can't be said if you get a call from, say, Marilyn Monroe or Joseph Stalin....historical figures we have actual photos of.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:15am PT
Dr F Christ compels you to post a TR!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:36am PT
only the ones that make through pregnancy can be considered a person, hence a new life.

...so a woman is just a little bit pregnant until she gives birth?

Happy Father's Day!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:50am PT
It's all well and good musing about when life begins and other such harmless parlor generic, but when personhood begins, in the eyes of the state, is another, far more serious matter.

Fundies would grant 2 cells all the same rights of personhood (weighted heavily in the fetus' favor, of course) as an actual person - the mother.

This is no harmless, definitional nit. This is the Fundy end game with regards to the rights of women to choose their own destiny. It seeks to enable the State to force women to have unwanted children under penalty of murder.

It should come as no surprise for a movement that has long viewed women as chattel ordered by God to be subservient to her husband.

Hmmm. No human agenda there.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jun 15, 2014 - 09:22am PT
Lose?

The Fundies have certainly have been doing very well with regards to restricting family planning - of which abortion is only one part. They've been chipping away at the Roe V Wade 2nd trimester rule a few weeks at a time - very successfully. This has been the only real success of the Tea Party Movement.

Who Christ was is conjecture. It is also irrelevant to how public policy should be crafted for today's America.

The issue will go the SCOTUS in some form - and there's certainly no guarantee at this point the Fundies won't win the prize there. SCOTUS may kick the issue back down to the States where it is largely being fought now. We'll need to continue to beat the Fundies back on that front pretty for the indefinite future until either the abortion fetish or the whole Born Again Reaction to Modernity and Social Justice finally dies a much needed death.

The Fundies are training over a thousand constitutional lawyers a year to impose their faith on the rest of us - some of whom have proven quite skilled recently (witness the recent SCOTUS win allowing prayer at government functions).

This agenda should come as no surprise to anyone - it's not like the Fundies are quiet about it.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 21, 2014 - 03:55pm PT

...Jesus is not too ba-a-ad is He!!! :)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2014 - 05:47pm PT
go-B, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: As a fellow Christian, I am telling you that you are doing the cause of Christ no service with your approach to such subjects. I mean that.

And Christians wide-spread are doing the cause of Christ no service by riding this hobby horse to a froth. Nowhere in the Bible is "life" defined as you take it to be, is "person" defined as you need it to be, or is abortion even addressed much less condemned.

You can make NO cogent Biblical nor philosophical case to trump the rights of a woman regarding her body, which is the necessary environment of the developing fetus.

And your endless quoting of LENGTHY passages of the Bible or various Bible-commentary is the dialectical equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and dancing around with your tongue out yelling, "I can't HEAR you, nah-nah-nah-nah, naaahhhh nah!"

Grow up and ENGAGE the topic.

Your "just a little bit pregnant" line shows HOW confused you are about what the topic consists of. Pregnancy is not the issue under debate. The rights of the fetus, particularly as compared to the rights of the woman, are the subject of the discussion. The woman is undeniably pregnant with a single fertilized cell, yet that says NOTHING about the rights of the fetus.

Until dogmatists like you can get clear about what RIGHTS are, how they inhere in PEOPLE, and how rights affect the relations of people, you remain CLUELESS and DOGMATIC on this subject; and you harm the cause of Christ.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
Sure. And everything you just wrote is irrelevant to the discussion.

Believe all you want. But don't impose your perspective on others, especially when it is unsupportable!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Until dogmatists like you can get clear about what RIGHTS are, how they inhere in PEOPLE, and how rights affect the relations of people, you remain CLUELESS and DOGMATIC on this subject; and you harm the cause of Christ.

Mad-B, Do YOU really think you're able to speak for God on what He considers the "Rights" of man?

i myself haven't heard anyone talking about the rights of the fetus, cept the anti-christians. And, i myself doesn't think that the anti-abortion thing for some christians is about that anyhow.

Should a believer in Christ lay down his arms(voice) and say,"Go ahead and have all the abortions you want"? Geez look at what legalized abortion has already produced. Need i reverberate? You show me how its christian to be able to condone abortion. i do believe in the rights of men in a free state. i'm ok with allowing homosexuals equal opportunity in the state, but do i need to go so far as to condone it for anyone? Should i teach my children it's ok? should i allow them to drink, and smoke, and do drugs, and buy prostitutes because the State says it's ok?

instead of focusing on a cell, let us focus on the universe.

Gods Universe!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:52pm PT

But don't impose your perspective on others, especially when it is unsupportable!

What does that mean???????

And what are you doing??????

Isn't that the point of discussion???????
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 21, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
Our grandaughter Rebecca has been through a lot...





...she is truly a gift!


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
Praise God for lil,Rebecca

PRAISE GOD!

PRAISE GOD!

PRAISE GOD!

Each one of us is so very important we cant even imagine..

All we can do is;

PRAISE GOD!

PRAISE GOD!

PRAISE GOD!

Amen
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Yes, praise god that this young child was born with horrific medical problems. The god that can allow such suffering to an innocent child must be very worthy of our undying devotion.






Yeah. Right.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 21, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
God has a plan...

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

...a good one!
WBraun

climber
Jun 21, 2014 - 10:05pm PT
This thread is proof positive of pure stupid people who think just by running their stupid mouths it means something.

If it is that simple you could conquer death.

Instead this thread is nothing but dead stupid corpses running their mouths against life itself .....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 21, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
Quack!

And the ones ain't talk'in are liv'in?

QuackQuack!!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 21, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
I'm surprised that no one took my up on the official viewpoint of the gov't of the deification of Geo Washington. It was news to me.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2014 - 12:06am PT
What does that mean???????

And what are you doing??????

Isn't that the point of discussion???????

What I am doing IS discussion. It is not enforcement. You hobby-horse-riding, enforce-your-version-of-morality "Christians" are the ones that are trying to IMPOSE your views on everybody else.

Regarding what legalized abortion has done... well, it's pretty significantly reduced the total number of abortions, as well as saved the lives of countless women who now no longer need to have some coat-hanger approach to it!

Regarding the rights of the fetus, actually I HAVE discussed them quite a bit, as well as why a woman's rights will always trump the rights of a fetus.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2014 - 07:40am PT
Not just western religion....nearly all religions have an existential drive to impose their beliefs on others. So much human misery down through the ages has, and continues, to be the end result.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2014 - 08:02am PT
This thread is proof positive of pure stupid people who think just by running their stupid mouths it means something.

If it is that simple you could conquer death.

Instead this thread is nothing but dead stupid corpses running their mouths against life itself .....

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2014 - 08:20am PT
Ron, those women you are describing are suffering BECAUSE of religious beliefs.
crankster

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2014 - 08:22am PT
Exactly, donini. Your stance is the opposite of nonsense.
jstan

climber
Jun 22, 2014 - 08:59am PT
What is the characteristic of a software bug? It goes on and on past all understanding. Why? Eventually the bug proves to be something, not true, that is not questioned.

So it is with things like this thread. Here the bug is right there in Jim's OP. Look at any thread where someone denies that another person is a christian and the bug is apparent.

People cannot agree as to what christian is.

In the face of that failure, trying to say our nation or anything is " not christian" is fatally flawed. And pointless.

Take any of the endless discussions like this and look for the "bug". Try it.

crankster

Trad climber
Jun 22, 2014 - 09:15am PT
Hero worshipping speed climbers bores me.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2014 - 09:27am PT
Yep...climbing is intrinsically boring except for the participants.
jstan

climber
Jun 22, 2014 - 10:13am PT
Hero worshipping speed climbers bores me.

With one exception, speed climbing and climbing in general is boring, for Jim's reason.

The exception?

Imagine for a moment that Alex is explaining how he would propose to approach the Social Security issue. Alex is very believable. Because he is even handed. He is even handed because he is sensitive to others.

Would you believe him? I would.

I can't watch him solo. Based upon the potential loss to us all, the risks are unsupportable. Totally unsupportable.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 22, 2014 - 10:19am PT

Not always boring...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jun 22, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Damn.... I Just got done writing a bit on a couple of posters....

turns out after proofreading the bit I was just as full of sh#t as that I was pointing out about the other poster...

So I deleted it

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2014 - 11:17am PT
...the real mom wants the best for her child!

I would imagine that everyone on this thread would agree.

The problem you face is that not everybody here agrees that a single fertilized cell that has better than 50% chance it will be naturally and spontaneously aborted (miscarriage) is a "child."

The World Health Organization states that the majority of miscarriages present no symptoms and occur unknown to the woman. I've posted the link somewhere upthread or on another similar thread. I'm not going to look it up again. The WHO's studies indicate that upwards of 70% of pregnancies self-terminate within the first trimester.

Sorry, go-B, but I just can't get my mind around calling a festering blob of cells, that most of the time the body is about to eject on its own, a "child."
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jun 22, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
...the real mom wants the best for her child!

 Go-B - Statement of Myth - On the face of it this statement may be true, we certainly hope its true of all mothers... But the reality of it is that there are mothers who birth children then turn their backs on them.

Some moms best ends up with the kid at the bottom of a lake or bathtub or even crib... So, were these Unreal moms? Or is this just a different example of Mom's best?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 22, 2014 - 12:30pm PT

Would you believe him? I would.

Yea, what about when your hero tells you he had a little run into with The Lord.
And now he's decided to devote his entire life to Jesus. Would you believe him then?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 22, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
^€€ We'll all find out soon enough...
jstan

climber
Jun 22, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
BB:
I was responding to your post but discovered Locker had already done the job very nicely.

Your response to Locker is overtly aggressive and resembles a fight in the third grade when someone shouts, "My dad can beat up your dad!".

I suggest you have a sit down with Jesus.


Tx Locker.
Degaine

climber
Jun 23, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Blueblocr wrote:
Mad-B, Do YOU really think you're able to speak for God on what He considers the "Rights" of man?

Blueblocr wrote:
i do believe in the rights of men in a free state.

Both bolds by me.

Unlike you, I believe that women have rights, too. Equal rights.

I'll throw your question right back at you: do YOU really think you're able to speak for GOD on what SHE considers?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jun 23, 2014 - 05:07am PT
Of course BB and GB know what God thinks. All great minds think alike.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2014 - 06:13am PT

Unlike you, I believe that women have rights, too. Equal rights.

when i use the term "man" it automatically means boys and girls.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2014 - 11:11am PT
Let man and woman be joined together to become as ONE; Mankind; Man.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 23, 2014 - 11:14am PT

Let males decide what females can and cannot do with their own bodies.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 23, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
One of the surest signs of a distortion of human rights under God is a patriarchal society protecting women from THEMSELVES!

You know, wear a burqa because your body is inherently evil and tempting, so you are really better and safer to be covered head-to-foot in hot, black cloth.

As long as the fetus depends entirely upon the woman's body for its very existence, it is properly a part of a woman's body, and she has the ultimate say over whether it continues to exist or not.

Government should not be in the mix AT ALL.

You Christian zealots on this subject should be putting your time, efforts, and money into education rather than legislation. Pretty much on every "moral" subject.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2014 - 04:40pm PT

Government should not be in the mix AT ALL.

Hey i agree with you whole-heartedly. In a country whose motto is "Live Free or Die" shouldn't everything be legal! So why can't i drive my Porsche 140mph
if i want to? And why can't i shoot-up heroin at Starbucks or exchange a little money to a woman for a little pleasure? Hell, i can't even water my own trees with my own greywater legally.

Laws are meant to be broken. Jesus even said so.

Should we(our government)try to hold the bar up high to cause people to aspire? Or should we jus lay the bar on the ground and let them step over it?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 23, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
question for Blu

do you support laws that make abortion illegal?

and if so what should the penalty be?

if abortion is "murder' to you, Blu, then should a woman's sentence be life in prison, or what?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
^^^i don't condone pre-marital sex, let alone abortions. i'm not so much against abotions, as i am against what it took to get to the position to warrant an abortion. The average cost for an abortion is $450. the average cost for a cast on a broken arm is $4500. There's something wrong there!

Maybe the "Dad" should HAVE to pay for the abortion plus pay a fine?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jun 23, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
Speaking of what Jesus said, he also said it was okay to have slaves.
Wouldn't it be great to have America follow God's laws and own people again?
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
You stupid Americans are already slaves.

You're not free one bit at all.

You are slaves to your own bodies and all it's material desires life after life reaping untold continuous karmic reactions life after life .....
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jun 23, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
^^^^ Really brings it home.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 23, 2014 - 09:19pm PT

Speaking of what Jesus said, he also said it was okay to have slaves

No He didn't.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jun 23, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
You seem pretty sure. Would it bother you if Jesus was okay with slavery?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 24, 2014 - 12:42am PT
Hey i agree with you whole-heartedly. In a country whose motto is "Live Free or Die" shouldn't everything be legal! So why can't i drive my Porsche 140mph
if i want to? And why can't i shoot-up heroin at Starbucks or exchange a little money to a woman for a little pleasure? Hell, i can't even water my own trees with my own greywater legally.

All of your examples cite laws that are argued to protect people from the effects of other people.

Abortion is not affecting a person, thus no law is needed to protect a person from the effects of other people.

You will say the fetus is a person, but that IS the exact basis of the argument itself.

So, your examples are either entirely irrelevant or question-begging. Which do you prefer?
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 24, 2014 - 04:56am PT
If everything is legal isn't that lawlessness?
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jun 24, 2014 - 11:31am PT
I'd like to thank some of you guys for expressing what we would've had expressed had we cared to write once more about war-on-woman subjects.


Thank you, appreciated.


Pate

Trad climber
Jun 24, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
once again someone speculates, cant believe it would be Flashy P's Mom.

Flashy-P died a month ago after eating pop-rocks and drinking ten of those 5 hour energy drinks at once.

DMT why am i spineless? what a spineless ting to say in one's absence!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 24, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
Speaking of what Jesus said, he also said it was okay to have slaves

No He didn't.

yes, Jesus certainly DID approve of slaves...as did his Father

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)



However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 24, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
GEEZ Norton, what do they teach you in catholic school???

Those books were written 1500 yrs before Christ through Moses to going astray Jews. Do you know why they were going astray? In those days slavery was not against Governments laws. God taught the Jews these Truths because..............




Oh, never mind
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jun 24, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
Not sure why, but I'll ask again.

Where does Jesus ever say anything against slavery? You'd think he might have an opinion considering how widespread it was.
Although, he did have some interesting things to say about family life: "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters...cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

"Whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Matthew 5:32

Jesus on sin: "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away." Matthew 5:29

Cannibalism: "...my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him." John 6:53-66

Partying: "I came eating and drinking, and you say, "Look, a glutton and a drunkard...'" Matthew 11:19

Wealth: "Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Luke 18:22; Mark 10:21; Matthew 19:21

Well what do you know...Jesus was a kinda creepy, hard partying commie.



madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 24, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
Those books were written 1500 yrs before Christ through Moses to going astray Jews.

Uhh... FAIL!

Paul (well after the time of Christ) wrote the Epistle to Philemon encouraging him to return to his master and submit himself as a good slave should.

Nothing in the Bible condemns slavery, and the most canonized apostle flatly told a runaway slave to "get back into the chains" (paraphrase).

Show me anywhere in the Bible that abortion is even mentioned, and show me anywhere in the Bible where slavery is condemned.
phillip mike revis

climber
snowbird, ut
Jun 24, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
no we are not a Christian nation! we are a human nation!
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jun 24, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
sure you didn't mean an Obamanation?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 24, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
Norton i just prayed that God would open ur eyes and ur heart to understanding.



Uhh... FAIL!

Paul (well after the time of Christ) wrote the Epistle to Philemon encouraging him to return to his master and submit himself as a good slave should.

Uhh, wher did i fail?

The questions concerned Exodus and Leviticus.

Paul knew that a man must submit to his government. And if a man was a slave, he was to be a good slave. No matter what your job is, you are to do it to the best of your ability to honor your Father in heaven.

the original statement;

Speaking of what Jesus said, he also said it was okay to have slaves.

i don't see anywhere in the bible Jesus said that!
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Jun 24, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
This thread is great!!
It got me looking up whack ass bible passages and I found this gem....

And a young man followed him, with nothing but a linen cloth about his body. And they seized him, but he left the linen cloth and ran away naked.


madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 01:38am PT
Uhh, wher did i fail?

The questions concerned Exodus and Leviticus.

I guess you weren't following the dialectic you were engaged in.

Norton said that Jesus and the Father approved of slavery and quoted a couple of verses.

You responded that those verses were written 1500 years before Christ, with the obvious implication being that we can today just ignore that old, Hebrew junk as irrelevant, because God was trying to bring a backward people up out of the slime; 1500 years later we would see God's actual perspective on the matter... through Christ (and presumably the apostles).

I mean, your response is totally incoherent AS a "response" if you weren't trying to make something like the point that God's perspective on slavery wasn't revealed to the backwards Hebrews because He had bigger fish to fry with them. So, presumably after more than 1500 years of being God's people, by the time of Christ, God would be able to set things straight.

But you "fail" because nothing like that argument will fly.

NOWHERE in the Bible does God (via any form of revelation) indicate that slavery was, is, or ever will be wrong. And the Jews kept slaves throughout the time of Christ and beyond. And Paul did NOT use his classic opportunity to set the matter straight; instead he SUPPORTED the institution of slavery, even among Christians.

Paul knew that a man must submit to his government. And if a man was a slave, he was to be a good slave. No matter what your job is, you are to do it to the best of your ability to honor your Father in heaven.

Actually, Paul knew NO such thing! Paul repeatedly defied "his government" regarding moral and religious matters, and was ultimately beheaded for his ongoing and stubborn defiance. Paul was a tough cookie and would certainly have set Christians straight on the subject if he had the slightest inclination to do so! He was fully prepared to defy the counsel of Jerusalem regarding circumcision. Nothing about slavery???

And do you REALLY have the temerity to try to float this line? "No matter what your job is, you are to do it to the best of your ability...."

REALLY??? Being a slave is a "job" on your model of reality?

The case YOU need to make is that slavery IS wrong, but that this was a sort of "social reform" that God hasn't been concerned about in this fallen social order. God apparently ALWAYS has bigger fish to fry than to address slavery, although He addresses plenty of other minutia, such as a woman being unclean during her period.

So that's a VERY hard row to hoe! And you find NO support for a case against slavery in the Bible itself. Thus, your attempt at a "response" to Norton was tortured and convoluted on multiple levels.

So, again I say: Fail. And on multiple levels.

And you jumped in on the subject of abortion. So again I ask you to reveal to us from the Bible how you know abortion is wrong and that God condemns it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 25, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Thanks for your response MB1.

I mean, your response is totally incoherent AS a "response" if you weren't trying to make something like the point that God's perspective on slavery wasn't revealed to the backwards Hebrews because He had bigger fish to fry with them. So, presumably after more than 1500 years of being God's people, by the time of Christ, God would be able to set things straight.

Nowhere did i say that the bible didn't oblige slavery. But it was an invent of man. And what i believe a part of Gods plan. Through out history men have "owned" other mens bodys and have dictated what they shall do with them, sometimes against their own will. If need be bodily punishment was used to persuade. That is man owning another man slavery. Today we aren't so Neanderthal as that, but we still have forms of slavery. To our government, our bosses etc, But more importantly to our own minds. Can we agree that the old testament is known today as "The Law"? It contains the 10 commandments and many other Laws inwhich the minds and bodys of ancient peoples were to adhere to. Do you believe that the OT was "a shadow of things to come" as Joshua put it? It was written for a time until the law was to be fulfilled. So what cast that shadow? It is the Messiah and the New Testament. Jesus said that The Law only leads to death. He laid down the new Law of "Love thy brother as thyself" The Law is forever inscribed in our conscious, but its the Heart that should dictate our actions. If your mule fell into a ditch on Sunday, would you not work to pull her out?


Actually, Paul knew NO such thing! Paul repeatedly defied "his government" regarding moral and religious matters,


Romans 13, Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgement on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but of evil. do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Paul

Paul did rebel against authorities over religious freedoms, and he taught that as well. But he taught to be good citizens.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 25, 2014 - 11:50am PT
Isn't Christianity just a form of spiritual slavery? wait...let me rephrase.

Christianity is Spiritual Slavery.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 25, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
^^^ Yea, but it's more like how we are a slave to eating.

The more you praise, the fuller you get!!!!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 25, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
no the more you eat, the Fatter you get.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
But he taught to be good citizens.

The problem you have with this fence-sitting view of yours regarding government is that you are unable to offer a principled distinction between slavery being "wrong" (despite its being legal and supported by God, His people, and the apostles) and abortion being "wrong" (despite its being legal and nowhere mentioned nor condemned in the Bible).

The religious right has been riding a number of hobby horses, anti-abortion being just one of them. The problem is that they can't sustain their position either Biblically nor philosophically. Thus, they appear clueless, arbitrary, and intellectually vapid or even vacuous.

With abortion being legal in this country, and given your arguments, shouldn't the religious right just calm down and "be good citizens" on this subject? On what basis should the religious right legislate instead of contenting themselves to educate?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
And that is relevant to this discussion... how, go-B?
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 25, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Clearly we're just not dealing with the snappiest biners on the rack here.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
But it makes me wonder, since you say we are on the opposite side of the spectrum

Do you support the Right Wing Political agenda?
Would you vote for someone like Romney or McCain instead of a Democratic Candidate?

How about Rand Paul?

I don't remember saying that we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. I believe that I've said that you argue from the left but that I'm not on the "right/left" spectrum at all.

I'm a philosophical libertarian, which does not even map neatly onto political libertarianism. So, no, I am not a fan of the right wing agenda or of the Rebumblecons at all.

That said, I usually find myself in a very tough spot on election day, as there are no electable candidates that represent my perspective. Romney and McCain both have severe problems. So does Obama and Hillary. Rand Paul is no chip off of his daddy's block; he is a pretty straightforward Rebumblecon.

Ron Paul was closest to my perspectives of any recent candidate, but he was not electable.

As just one example of how neither party serves the deepest interests of Americans....

9/11 -- Bush USES this as a pretext to initiate imperial presidency like no president before him. In the interests of "security," we get such double-speak as the "Patriot Act" and a mandate to the NSA to do "whatever it takes" to "keep us safe."

Obama is elected on a platform of "change" and "transparency," and we have gotten neither. Virtually every promise to undo Bush's legacy of double-speak (including what we now know included the most sweeping invasions of American privacy ever) have gone unfulfilled. And you can't blame the Rebumblecons for that, as for the first couple of years, the Demoncrats owned Washington.

Americans care FAR more for "security" and "comfort" than for freedom and individual rights. Individual responsibility is right out the window. And accountability among politicians of any party is non-existent.

Every man, woman, and child in this country is over $100,000 in debt (and climbing), and that is real debt. We've crossed a line such that we can't print our way out of this one. And the dollar is on the brink of losing its status as the world's reserve currency.

Fiscal responsibility is non-existent in both parties. Even Rand Paul's "conservative" budget is a farce.

So, I don't know if we're on "opposite sides," but I'm confident from past discussions with you that we don't see eye-to-eye.

It's ironic that I, a Christian, find myself on the "same side" as you regarding the right-wing-religious efforts to "legislate morality." But, again, very few Christians are on "my side," as I cannot align with their senseless dogmatism, social gospel, and "relevancy efforts" that amount to nothing more than being really loud and rude about making this nation moral.

Sarah Palin? THIS is the best the right can come up with??? Don't get me started!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 25, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
Yeah, that's about right. lol
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 25, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
this is what happens when you graduate from a christian collage!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 25, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
MB queeried,

The problem you have with this fence-sitting view of yours regarding government is that you are unable to offer a principled distinction between slavery being "wrong" (despite its being legal and supported by God, His people, and the apostles) and abortion being "wrong" (despite its being legal and nowhere mentioned nor condemned in the Bible).

i sometimes forget everyone hasn't read all my thousand's of posts.
i don't think i'm a fencesitter. i hate slavery from a humanity stance. i think it's wrong in every aspect! i was merely commiting towards 7pools assumtion. Havn't you heard me toughting the Christians for starting the end of slavery in this country?

And i think abortion is wrong from a personal view point, but i wouldn't vote to make it illeagal while living in this country.

But i don't think saying these types of acts are "supported by God"is the correct phrase. i think acts like slavery and abortion are shoved in His face by man. Then He puts it back in our face to watch how we react.

My view on government is much like urs and DrF's.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
first and only post on this stupid-as-fukk thread

just wanted to see what the deal was, to see if it was anything other than a colossal waste of time

Confirmed. Adios, retards
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 26, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
HaHa HaHa!^^^^ NO, it was God.


the post was by the Devil...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
And i think abortion is wrong from a personal view point, but i wouldn't vote to make it illeagal while living in this country.

Great! Then you are no religious-right-wing zealot... at least on that topic.

But i don't think saying these types of acts are "supported by God"is the correct phrase. i think acts like slavery and abortion are shoved in His face by man. Then He puts it back in our face to watch how we react.

That doesn't work.

1) God has no need to "watch how we react." Instead, on the Biblical model, WE need to see God's perspective of morality.

2) Per (1) just above, the Bible is purported to provide the foundational moral principles, and God frequently clarifies the implications of important ones to be sure we don't misunderstand.

3) Per (2) just above, somehow God finds moral-minutia like female periods being "unclean," circumcision "counting" and then no longer "counting," the eating of strangled meats being bad, oh so bad, and a host of other nit-picky details critical that we understand in great detail; as apparently we just won't GET those implications of morality.

But somehow, in light of the foregoing points, He has no space, time, energy, or revelation to expend on clarifying things like how wrong slavery is or the moral status of the fetus?

Given the Biblical notion that God is the supreme moral authority, His utter lack of condemnation of slavery, and His issuance of many laws and rules regarding HOW to carry forward the institution, it strikes me as a distinction without a difference to claim that He does not support the institution of slavery when He has been AT LEAST complicit in its institution for many thousands of years!

My view on government is much like urs and DrF's.

I'm really unclear how that could be accurate, because, as was stated in a small sidebar discussion between me and Dr. F, our views on government are very little alike. So, there's no way that you share "our" view, because there is no "our" view on government.

I have no idea yet what your view actually is, but you sure seem to have been arguing pretty anti-abortion on a "Christian nation (not)" thread.

We'll be forgiven for not clearly seeing that all this argumentation of yours really isn't even suggesting that the government have anything to do with making it illegal.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 05:44am PT
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (we are to remember, honor, and give thanks to Him!)

Actually, go-B, it's pretty ironic that you would be quoting this commandment. Do you keep Saturday (the whole day) holy, or Sunday (some "part" of the day)?

There's a LOT more to the fourth commandment than your trite "we are to remember, honor, and give thanks to Him!"

The commandment is very, very specific; the change from Saturday to Sunday observance was a late-second-century invention that was quickly adopted by the budding Catholic church.

So, what day is it that you keep holy (the whole day)?

... just pointing out a pretty significant inconsistency among those Christians that get all in a froth about the other commandments, enjoining them on the whole nation, but utterly fail in this one. LOL
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 08:43am PT
...Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament, He was the one true sacrifice given by God for the sins of the world! The Sabbath was changed to Sunday to honor Christ's resurrection day!

Typical fluff and nonsense response. The history of the change is well-documented, and the arguments you cite emerged in the sixth and eighth centuries, well after the change was made.

Interesting how only the fourth commandment supposedly got changed by Christ, while all the others were left alone.

I don't want to side-track this whole thread onto this topic, because it would be a huge debate. But you don't know your history, and the Scriptures you cite do not mean what you take them to mean. I'll leave it at this and simply note that even on something as "clear" as one of the COMMANDMENTS, Christendom can't be consistent.

And we're supposed to look to Christendom to tell us as a NATION about "moral" legislation based upon Christendom's interpretation of morality???

Sorry, but no-can-do! This is why our founders instituted a clear, bright line between church and state, and it is why (as a Christian) I will vigorously decry Christians attempting to legislate a heavily-interpreted, inconsistent, Bible-based "morality."
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 27, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Dr. F. is right about becoming an atheist, if we are not saved by the reconciliation offered to us by Christ's atonement on the cross!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 27, 2014 - 09:21am PT
F god is watching you!
F god see's how much porn u sift thru day to day!
F u must repent for considering atheistic views!!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Have you considered the next logical step madbolter?

Becoming an atheist

I used to be a believer, but put my beliefs under a critical eye.

I certainly understand why you would ask this question. Of course, the implication is that I have not yet "put my beliefs under a critical eye." By your lights, if I had, I WOULD be an atheist.

I have a Ph.D. in analytical philosophy from UC Santa Barbara, and analytical philosophy is not something lame and fluffy like "a history of ideas." I have indeed "put my beliefs under a critical eye," far, far more than most ever will, and I have changed any number of them over the decades. However, I'm a long, long way from buying atheism/naturalism as a sufficient account of "all there is" in the universe.

That said, I am confident that the Creator most likely bears little resemblance to the "God" that most Christians think they worship! And their moral compass is spinning wildly (based upon my long and often very painful experience with organized representations of Christianity), even as they try to impose (legislate rather than simply discuss) their "morality" on the nation.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 27, 2014 - 11:22am PT

Once you free yourself of religious beliefs, you become free to have critical thinking on every aspect of your life, and reality

By all means stop being a sheeple in the back of some religious religions auditorium. If your not feeling and seeing the spirit working everyday your doing it wrong.You aint doin it! Read and understand the bible for yourself.
The supernatural power in the blood of Christ is undeniable to the spirit filled man. The Living Word of the Bible is the conduit inwhere the Spirit is able to traverse mortal thinking, and reason life through the Heart.

There is NO checkoff list of morals and laws you must abide by to be a follower of Christ, But ONE. LOVE and treat your brothers and sisters as you would have them treat you.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 27, 2014 - 11:25am PT

Fairytales... it's much more like this:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 27, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
I'm sure the spirit is showing the monkey how to shoot!
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 27, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
Oh right, the FA thread is gone so I guess this is the closest thing now.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Yeah, I can't believe that Ed started that, put up the final post to it, and then nuked it. "Consensus" was harder to achieve than originally thought. :-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
What about Heaven and Hell?
Do they exist?

I would say "yes" but not in the sense that most Christians believe. For example, the idea of a now-existing, eternally-burning hell is nonsense based upon a very few misinterpreted texts. Such a view of hell makes God an unjust MONSTER: infinite, beyond-words-horrific punishment for a finite number of what might well be relatively trivial sins??? It's astounding to me that so many otherwise intelligent people will take their sense or morality and justice, completely abandon them, and just "accept" that God is this monstrous.

The whole idea of an "immortal soul" is another borrowed-from-paganism fabrication that became mainstream-accepted in Christianity due to Catholicism. It does not exist in the Bible except in parable form designed to make entirely other points. The Bible is unambiguous and crystal clear that "the dead know not anything," etc. So, there are no "souls" in Heaven or in Hell now.

here is the question that made me become an Atheist

Is there life after physical death?
If there is, you will have to come up with a scientific explanation for how it works.

That question is worded in a loaded way. For our purposes, neither "life" nor "death" have been adequately defined.

Also, why should ANY responder to your question be constrained to a strictly "scientific explanation?" That loads the debate toward naturalism from the outset. As I said, I have rigorous philosophical reasons to deny the doctrine of naturalism prior to any such specific debate. Thus, I simply deny that the naturalistic-explanation constraint is valid from the start.

That is NOT to say that just any old touchy-feely, "I had a vision" sort of crap counts as an "explanation." When I say "rigorous philosophical reasons," I am talking about points that are non-naturalistic but still well-defined and rest upon cogent argumentation.

If there is no life after death, (which will be your answer if you really did critical thought on the subject)

then why do we need a God?
if there is No life after death: that there is No Godly plan, no Godly morals, No interaction with God in any way.

Again, the terms you are using (thus the context of your presumptions) are not well-defined. If you mean "life after death" in the sense that mainstream Christianity believes in it, I would respond that neither philosophy nor Scripture supports such a view. But there are other alternatives that cohere with both well-grounded philosophy and with what the Bible actually says (stripping out all the pagan doctrine that got mixed in with Christianity in the early centuries).

If you think of it, There is No reason to have a God, he does nothing
Why do we need a God if doesn't do anything
Occams Razor is the point of this idea, God is just an addition to the mix because Humans needed a God for the explanations of things they couldn't understand, since they didn't have science to investigate things they didn't understand, like lightening.

Now that we understand these things, God is just an unnecessary Conspiracy

All true, IF it is sustainable that God is just an unnecessary "bolt on" to an otherwise completely adequate and comprehensive account of reality. I don't believe that naturalism IS such an adequate and comprehensive account, however.

I got my Biology degree from UC Santa Barbara in 1981
when were you there?

I was physically there from 94 through 96 but then finished my dissertation off-campus.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
Well madbolter1,

If we used this thread as an example, & replaced the word Christianity with the words Trad climbing we would be having a pretty parallel conversation I think. My observations show that one side is denying the possibility of evolution and saying one brush is all that is needed to paint any picture if you follow specific rules, & the other is open to growing & using different ideas & changing rules to work for the situations that require them.


Same shet different pile.

But using climbing terms is more fun and generally less hateful.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
here is the question that made me become a sport climber?

Is there life after ground up?
If there is, you will have to come up with a scientific explanation for how it works.


There fixed it for you :-)
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
*yawn*

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
My observations show that one side is denying the possibility of evolution and saying one brush is all that is needed to paint any picture if you follow specific rules, & the other is open to growing & using different ideas & changing rules to work for the situations that require them.

Well, I guess, then, that I'm not on either "side." LOL

One problem with a word like "evolution" is that it is typically ambiguously employed. I, for one, do not "deny the possibility" of it. But I do deny that "micro-evolution" (adaptation within genetic limits) equates to "macro-evolution" (speciation events). Micro-evolution is well-documented and understood, while macro-evolution has never been observed and is merely speculated to follow from a sufficient accumulation of adaptations. Further, there are many counterexamples indicating that there are stringent genetic limitations keeping true speciation events from occurring.

And please, let's not get off on fundamentally-interpreted subjects like the fossil record, etc. First, the empirical debate can rage forever and fruitlessly. Second, the reasons I am a believer are not based upon empirical arguments. Finally, the sorts of falsifications my perspective is subject to would not be empirical ones.

But using climbing terms is more fun and generally less hateful.
True, although I'm a very, very, VERY good Christian and would never, ever imagine anything hateful! ;-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
all that crapolla about definitions when you know exactly what I meant

No, actually I don't, and the definitions DO matter. This is a problem with debating YOU: you treat ambiguity as acceptable when it slants your way. I don't like it however it's slanted.

When most people talk about "life after death," they literally imagine some consciousness floating around on a cloud, or some such thing (or burning eternally in torment). I deny all that fluff and nonsense.

However, if by "life after death" you mean any sense in which something like my present consciousness can (at some point) be again conscious apart from my present physical body, I would say that this is certainly possible.

And why can't science be applied to life after death,

Simply because the nature of consciousness itself does not fall to a scientific explanation (see the "what is mind" thread). You obviously and flatly deny this. But there is a vast, rigorous, and very cogent literature denying your denial... and that among almost entirely non-Christian philosophers! In short, an adequate account of "mind" isn't arising from a purely scientific analysis. Thus, whatever it IS that is not logically dependent upon a particular physical body is what would have "life after death," and explaining how that might work is not going to be a scientific account.

That does NOT mean it is going to be a fluff and nonsense account. I, along with many, believe that Kant provided exceptionally good reasons to think that "mind" is not fundamentally embodied, although "consciousness" is. But this discussion is FAR afield from the topic of this thread.

If there is explanation for it, then it could be true
but since there isn't, it can easily be more mythology, which I contend

You are really helping yourself to your own position when you blithely state "but since there isn't...." Actually there is. It's just not the naturalistic one you insist upon.

I guess you didn't bother to do any critical thinking about life after death
I will give you some hints:

No need to start getting demeaning. I don't need your "hints." I've actually read thousands of pages and thought this stuff through at a level that's impossible to articulate in a forum setting. And whenever I even start to try, somebody or other starts moaning about my "long posts." Forums are a no-win for attempted rigorous argumentation, so I've given up trying. People here enjoy drive-by shootings rather than careful thinking. Edit: See Locker's post just above. LOL

Do animals get an afterlife? if no, why not?
How about bacteria? why not?
How crowded is the cosmos with the trillions of souls floating around, doing nothing.
Is there a giant computer up there somewhere deciding what you become after you die?
What lives on? Your soul?
What does it do for eternity? just sit around?

The answers to all these questions are systematically offered by Kant (and others). And a couple of them are laughably nutty. Crowded cosmos? Get serious.

and here is the kicker
Why do we need to believe in an afterlife? All Religions have this as part of their gospel....

No hope of an afterlife = no God.

Kant's account depends upon no such motivations nor presumptions.

I've now gotta finish a document I should have been working on for a customer. Sigh.

We're far off-topic anyway.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 27, 2014 - 04:39pm PT

...capish!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jun 29, 2014 - 04:41pm PT

Yosemite Valley and Jesus
http://ronerskine.typepad.com/weekly_tramp/page/3/

Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 29, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
The Bill of Rights

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Seem pretty clear to me.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 29, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
^^^Yea? well your point isn't clear at all!
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 29, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

I'm a latecomer to this thread. This post is about Jim's originating premise that we are not a Christian nation in terms of design of government. What are you not getting? I'm not making a comment about the recent posts. Still seems pretty clear to me.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 29, 2014 - 06:45pm PT

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Well, All the people that wrote that Bill were all swore into office with an oath to Jesus Christ. An "establishment of religion" infers to NOT respecting any ONE religion. The majority of the drafters were infact Christians.

Even Jim knows that. He's just chum'in.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 29, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
Sorry, I'm not taking the bait. You know a good number of those present and contributing to the process were deists. And, being mature and secure in their personal beliefs, the Christians involved made a stand for their right to practice their religion, for anyone else to practice their religion, and for the government to sanction no one religion over another. Hence, we are by design a secular nation even though common practice has often in the past and even still does in some ways betray the principle of the Bill of Rights. If we do hold the document dear, we will implement it accordingly. If we don't, we will make silly arguments for casually abridging it to our personal comfort.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 29, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
all swore into office with an oath to Jesus Christ.
"sworn"

and that's not true at all.
under God.
Also incorrect.

There is nothing in the Presidential oath of office about religion.
The second article of the Constitution says nothing about god, let alone jesus
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:— “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
John Quincy Adams swore on a book of law, with the intention that he was swearing on the constitution.[
It is uncertain how many Presidents used a Bible or added the words "So help me God" at the end of the oath, or in their acceptance of the oath, as neither is required by law; unlike many other federal oaths which do include the phrase "So help me God."[33] There is currently debate as to whether or not George Washington, the first president, added the phrase to his acceptance of the oath. No contemporary sources mention Washington as adding a religious codicil to his acceptance.
We've been over this before. I specifically quoted similar sources about a month ago. I'm fine with arguing whether we are a Christian nation or not as long as you have your facts right.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 29, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Theodore Roosevelt did not use a Bible when taking the oath in 1901. Barack Obama, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Harry S. Truman, and Richard Nixon (also a Quaker) swore the oath on two Bibles. John Quincy Adams swore on a book of law, with the intention that he was swearing on the constitution.[8] Lyndon B. Johnson was sworn in on a Roman Catholic missal on Air Force One.[9] Washington kissed the Bible afterwards,[10] and subsequent presidents followed suit, up to and including Harry Truman,[11] but Dwight D. Eisenhower broke that tradition by saying his own prayer instead of kissing the Bible.

Washington even kissed the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And all others up to Truman!!

i'm not even condoning a Christian nation, other than the right to pursue Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
i wish that Christianity and government were never in the same sentence.

But facts are facts, just don't deny.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 29, 2014 - 08:40pm PT

Option of taking an oath or an affirmation

The Constitutional language gives the option to "affirm" instead of "swear". While the reasons for this are not documented, it may relate to certain Christians, including Quakers, who apply this scripture literally: "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation" (James 5:12, KJV)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 29, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Blue, your argument seems to be that the religion of the nation resides in the religion of the President, not the words of the Constitution. I don't agree.

If we were to elect a Mormon, would we become a Mormon nation? Hindu? Buddhist? If we elected several of them? What is the threshold?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 29, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
whether its swearing on a bible or koran is irrelevant.

If we started out swearing on the koran our laws would be much different today!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


i'm merely pointing to facts to help peoples opinions grow.

The fact that when we citizens elect the most powerful person in the world, the act of him putting his hand on the bible and giving an oath unto God shows everyone, including himself he is NOT the highest authority!


Are you actually suggesting the first amendment is actually an endorsement of christianity.... simply because a biblee was used as a prop?

No No No. The bible does mean christian and jew BTW. When you see a pic of someone giving an oath. People don't remember much what was said, but they do remember seeing the left hand on the bible and the right hand raised toward God.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jun 29, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
The fact that when we citizens elect the most powerful person in the world, the act of him putting his hand on the bible and giving an oath unto God shows everyone, including himself he is NOT the highest authority!

I'd be more impressed if it was a beating heart ala the Aztecs...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 29, 2014 - 09:16pm PT

If we were to elect a Mormon, would we become a Mormon nation? Hindu? Buddhist? If we elected several of them? What is the threshold?


This was the early drafters worry. and the reason for the wording.

But yea could you imagine if a catholic ran this country. If you ran a stoplight you'de have topay a fine and give 20 hail Marys. or if a morman ran it, caffine and sugar would be against the law. and if a muslim, well you know. Rediculusness!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 09:42am PT
I don't know when to take Blue seriously and when to just laugh
But yea could you imagine if a catholic ran this country. If you ran a stoplight you'de have topay a fine and give 20 hail Marys. or if a morman ran it, caffine and sugar would be against the law. and if a muslim, well you know. Rediculusness!
You might remember we've had a Catholic President. Perhaps you don't. His name was John F. Kennedy. My otherwise very intelligent and politically savvy Mother wouldn't vote for him because he was Catholic. I'm sure she'd have felt the same about a Jew although she would never have admitted to THAT.
JFK kept his religion entirely out of the affairs of state. As did his two famous brothers, Robert and Ted.
Don't we have a Muslim President right now? Suppose we have a "real" Muslim President (we will eventually)
Please be specific about your concerns.

That's the entire point of the 1st Amendment. Our laws and governance must NOT be at the whim of religion.
D'oh!!

Today's Supreme Dunces decision is a travesty.
So now a "closely held corporation" can deny an employee's rights based upon the owners' religious beliefs.
Wikipedia doesn't even have a description of a "closely held corporation". I'm sure it will by tomorrow.

The IRS does
Generally, a closely held corporation is a corporation that:
Has more than 50% of the value of its outstanding stock owned (directly or indirectly) by 5 or fewer individuals at any time during the last half of the tax year; and
Is not a personal service corporation.
The definitions for the terms "directly or indirectly" and "individual" are in Publication 542, Corporations.
10 largest from Forbes in 2008
Cargill, Koch Industries. Chrysler, GMAC Financial Services, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Mars, Bechtel, HCA, Ernst & Young, Publix Super Markets

Add Hobby Lobby, Fidelity Investments, Toys "R" Us, Aramark, Enterprise Rent a Car, Harrah's Entertainment, Cumberland Farms.......Bloomberg, McKinsey, Save Mart, Simplot, Levis......
18 pages of them with revenues of $1Billion or more.
They must employ 10s of millions of people.
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/21/privates08_Americas-Largest-Private-Companies_Rank.html
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 10:14am PT
i try to be funny like Bill Mahr

Don't we have a Muslim President right now? Suppose we have a "real" Muslim President (we will eventually)
Please be specific about your concerns.

Obama is a confessed christian. And quotes the bible to much IMO.

with a Muslim pres. i'd be worried about sharia law. wouldn't you?


a corporation is a privately owned business. Shouldn't they be allowed to hire who they want?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Shouldn't they be allowed to hire who they want?
Again, you are confusing the issues.

They certainly can hire who they want as long as they don't discriminate against race or religion.
That's not the question.
The question is: having hired someone, can you deny them benefits because of YOUR religion?
That's whats wrong. When you hire someone, does this give you the right to interfere in THEIR rights to equal opportunity under the law?
It also discriminates specifically against women. The exclusion of the rights in question (birth control benefits) of course doesn't apply directly to men.

Unfortunately the Supreme Dummies have the last say.

It appears their nonsense decision was, as usual, on fairly narrow grounds; another law passed by Congress in 1998 or 1999.
We'll see what happens.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 10:33am PT
And quotes the bible to much IMO.
Finally something we agree on. I'd be interested in knowing why you say this.
This whole "the President's gotta mention god in every third speech" nonsense came about due to the Christian Fundamentalists and Reagan. Before Raygun, a President might mention God in his coronation speech or state of the Onion.
Otherwise hardly at all.
If Catholic JFK had done it, you can be sure the mostly Protestant right wing and Southern Democrats would have been all over it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 10:45am PT
So back to Burwell v. Hobby Lobby
We doubt that the Congress that enacted [Religious Freedom Restoration Act] — or, for that matter, ACA – would have believed it a tolerable result to put family-run businesses to the choice of violating their sincerely held religious beliefs or making all of their employees lose their existing healthcare plans,” Justice Samuel Alito wrote in the opinion, which was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Anthony Kennedy.

We doubt that the Congress
So, are they interpreting the Constitution, or their belief of Congress' intent? Or fudging so they can insert their own belief system?
The court’s four liberal justices called it a decision of “startling breadth” and said that it allows companies to “opt out of any law (saving only tax laws) they judge incompatible with their sincerely held religious beliefs.”
The decision could open the door to other closely held corporations seeking to withhold coverage for other medical procedures at odds with firm religious beliefs. It marks the first time that the Supreme Court has allowed companies the ability to declare a religious belief — a decision that could reverberate far past the Affordable Care Act to other laws and issues.
Justice Ginsburg, in her dissent, warned that the ruling that would have wide repercussions and “untoward effects.”
“Although the court attempts to cabin its language to closely held corporations, its logic extends to corporations of any size, public or private,” she wrote.
The Obama administration argued that the requirement wasn’t a mandate at all because the companies could have dropped coverage.
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/supreme-court-hobby-lobby-decision-contraception-mandate-108429.html
The whole historical point of Corporations are that they shield individual owners (not necessarily the directors) from financial and criminal liability for acts of the Corporation.
Given that huge legal barrier, how can it be argued that now the owners can insert their religious beliefs through that barrier?
How can it be different for a "closely held corporation" rather than a not so closely held one? Who decides what defines a closely held corporation?
This asymmetry in rights and protections may in the strictest sense be legal but it certainly seems an unfair differential.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 11:06am PT
OK humor me, i've never had a job that granted me rights. so i never cared.

The question is: having hired someone, can you deny them benefits because of YOUR religion?
That's whats wrong. When you hire someone, does this give you the right to interfere in THEIR rights to equal opportunity under the law?

Did they use their religion and say "Thou shalt not steal" and since you did your fired? Or, "thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife" and since you hit on my VP's wife your fired. how do you mean they used their religion to deny benefits?

What if their religion requires them to bow and pray every two hours. should i be able to fire them?

Or what if they are a smoker and want smoke breaks? Or what if you found out they are smokers after you hired them. Can you fire them because everyone knows smokers have health risks?

Is it a "right" for a woman to take leave for a few months to have a baby and expect her job to be waiting for her? If my business can't be sustained with that long of a leave. Shouldn't the employer have the right not to want to hire a woman?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 30, 2014 - 11:16am PT
Shouldn't the employer have the right not to want to hire a woman?
No

courts have repeatedly held that an employer absolutely cannot make employment decisions based on the gender of applicants

or their race, their national origin, or their religion

this has been the law of the land since the 1965 Civil Rights Act
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 11:19am PT

I'd be interested in knowing why you say this.

i dont think any government official should ever include(out loud) their personal religious beliefs when they are on the clock!!!!!!!!

Their personal time they can do whatever.


Now this all pertains to elected government. Private business should be free to do as they may. This is a free country!

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 30, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Private business should be free to do as they may. This is a free country!

they would love you in the South, Blue

lots of people there hate "niggers" so much they agree with you that private businesses such as hotels and diners should be "free" to refuse to serve anyone but purely White People

that is called "discrimination", and for very good reason, is against Federal Law
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 11:30am PT
used their religion to deny benefits
You may have the "their" reversed.
It's not about the employees' religion at all. That's the point. The employees must be free to follow their own religious beliefs.
The question is, who has the power and who's denying rights.
In this case, both answers are "the owners".
The owners have the power to provide or deny health care. Yes, even under Obamacare. They must not be allowed to deny benefits to some of their employees because of the OWNER's religious beliefs.

Of course, now that they can, you are allowed your concern about a Muslim owned "closely held corporation". Suppose they give all employees Friday off but don't let you take Sunday off?

Unfortunately so many of the Supreme Retards have never had a "real life" (and are not women) unlike Ginsburg and Sotomayor.
The Obama administration and women’s health groups have warned that if they lost in the Supreme Court, the ruling could have much broader health coverage implications. If a company can skirt the contraception requirement, what’s to prevent another employer from objecting to providing access to vaccines or blood transfusions on religious grounds, they asked.
Ginsburg
“Although the court attempts to cabin its language to closely held corporations, its logic extends to corporations of any size, public or private,” she wrote.
Idiot Alito
“[Health and Human Services] and the principal dissent in effect tell the plaintiffs that their beliefs are flawed. For good reason, we have repeatedly refused to take such a step,” Alito wrote.
No one is questioning that the owners can practice their own religion as they see fit. Again it's the power of the employer to force their beliefs on their employees in a way that restricts the employees rights.
Ginsburg again
“The Court levels a criticism that is as wrongheaded as can be. In no way does the dissent ‘tell the plaintiffs that their beliefs are flawed,” she wrote. “Right or wrong in this domain is a judgment no Member of this Court, or any civil court, is authorized or equipped to make. What the Court must decide is not ‘the plausibility of a religious claim…’ but whether accommodating that claim risks depriving others of rights accorded them by the laws of the United States.”
And McConnell tacitly admits it's not about religious freedom at all. It's all about cutting away at Obamacare.
McConnell called Obamacare “the single worst piece of legislation to pass in the last 50 years” and praised the court for agreeing that the contraception requirement violates the RFRA
Death by a thousand cuts.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 11:30am PT
^^^ THis is my point.

How much should government be allowed to dictate laws on moral judgements concerning private business?

Then there's the public schools...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 11:37am PT
Private business should be free to do as they may. This is a free country!
This is indeed essentially what the Supreme Oafs have said.
Private business may now deny certain benefits to some employees solely because of a difference of religious beliefs.
That is far more dangerous than Obama making appointments when Congress is possibly not in session.

Come to work for me Blue. I'm a "closely held corporation". You may have Friday and Saturday off. But not Sunday. Going to a Christian church violates my atheist beliefs. Come to think of it, you can't have Friday or Saturday either; How about Tuesday and Wednesday?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 12:56pm PT

Private business may now deny certain benefits to some employees solely because of a difference of religious beliefs.

It should not matter if it's "religious" beliefs or "personal" beliefs!
If i offer something out there for sale, i should have the right to refuse service. Solely on the condition "I say so", i'm the owner.

If a diner wants to only serve whites, let'em. Who wants to eat what only whites eat anyway?lol. Seriously once word gets out they'll prolly loose business! Business marketing is made to cater to a certain market. Maybe you should be more concerned with the people who want to go to a whites only diner. Instead of restrictions, how about educating?

You know there are lots of schools and universities that only allow blacks to enroll. What's up with that?

How much should the government be allowed to dictate moral regulation?
My opinion they shouldn't be in the private sector. Government should only be allowed moral regulating in the government sponsored public jobs and spaces.Period.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
My opinion they shouldn't be in the private sector.
Think about it. This is precisely what the Supreme Retards have done.
Of course if your ox isn't being gored why would you see it that way?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
^^^What's ur reasoning they should regulate in the private sector?
mind you i'm only talk'in morally.

Are you trying to push your morals onto me?

And how much should they be allowed to "morally" will my children in grade school? Teaching evolution being the origin of man is an opinion! NOT proven! You want to take out the opinion of a Creator, but you want to keep your opinion in? The government also hands out condoms in schools to minors. This comes from the school who is teaching them everything they know, who infact when handing them a rubber are saying, "Go ahead and fuc, jus do it safely". Then if the rubbers didn't work, the school will take the minor girl to get a free abortion without notifying the parents.

Is this the kind of government you want?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 30, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
If a diner wants to only serve whites, let'em.

did you really think before you said that, Blu?

do you not understand that a "public diner" is in business to serve the "public"?

that the diner makes its profits from customers coming to on on public roads?

that the diner gets its water, gas, and electricity from public utilities?


please try to understand what you are saying should be legal, you are saying the business should be free to refuse service to anyone, Jews, Whites, Blacks, Handicapped people, people with short hair,
Catholics, anyone they want to

is that the America you want to go BACK in time to, Blu?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 02:16pm PT

it's not a public bus transport. It's a privately ran diner.

If you had an open mind you'de see the logic..

So what do you have to say about the blacks only schools? i don't see any whites only? THen what about Ladies boutiques that wont cut a mans hair?
Or what about men's only spas?

When is bigotry, discrimination, segregation, separation, what ever you want to call it, ok and not ok with you?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
American Christianity in government, Uganda style.
The video is worth following to the end.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/30/john-oliver-uganda-anti-gay-laws_n_5543403.html
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 30, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
non-sequitur again

Without the 1st Amendment if the Christian Extremists had their way we'd still be throwing homosexuals in prison instead of marrying them.

Someday we will have a Muslim President. I hope you're around to see it. I wonder if you'll cringe.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 30, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
Someday we will have a Muslim President.

i wouldn't dow't if someday we have a lesbein muslim with wings and a tail!
^that was my Bill Maher again. But that British guy in the vid is pretty funny.
He stated that there are 81 country's that have laws against homosexuality. That's alot! America has showed the world that we are infact not a "christian" nation because we have passed laws allowing same sex marriage. If christians were controlling gov. that law would have never passed. So chalk one up for "Freedom" what this country was founded on! But most other countrys aren't like us.. Most of them have culture and long historys of religious preference. Its hard to have an opinion on them with not many facts.

Whats really interesting to me is how this one guy, this "American Christian" can go to a country like Uganda and stir up this many bee's, then the finger gets pointed at "The Americans" or "The Christians" like All Americans have the opinion as him. Or All Christians have the same opinion.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 30, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
Freedom of Religion now includes imposing your views on some else. Great constitutional interpretation.

I bet the Kock Bros. Drove this in the background.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Jun 30, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.

I pity the poor immigrant
Who wishes he would’ve stayed home
Who uses all his power to do evil
But in the end is always left so alone
That man whom with his fingers cheats
And who lies with ev’ry breath
Who passionately hates his life
And likewise, fears his death

I pity the poor immigrant
Whose strength is spent in vain
Whose heaven is like Ironsides
Whose tears are like rain
Who eats but is not satisfied
Who hears but does not see
Who falls in love with wealth itself
And turns his back on me

I pity the poor immigrant
Who tramples through the mud
Who fills his mouth with laughing
And who builds his town with blood
Whose visions in the final end
Must shatter like the glass
I pity the poor immigrant

When his gladness comes to pass


zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Jun 30, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
Either T or Doc Evil.


Degaine

climber
Jul 1, 2014 - 12:32am PT
sketch wrote:
It's sad that so many Americans seem think if Christian leaders had their way, we'd have a society as repressive as 1930s Germany.


No need invoke Godwin, I personally don't see any indication we're headed down the road to Nazi Germany.

That written, you've never been to the South, have you? I have family who lived in Missouri for a while, cousins who spent part of their elementary school years there (in the 80s). One had teacher - at a public school - who passed out bibles at the beginning of the year and indicated that it was required reading and that their grades depended on it.

Government institutions should not be forcing religion down anyone's throat in that manner. What about that don't you get?
Degaine

climber
Jul 1, 2014 - 12:35am PT
Blueblocr wrote:
Whats really interesting to me is how this one guy, this "American Christian" can go to a country like Uganda and stir up this many bee's, then the finger gets pointed at "The Americans" or "The Christians" like All Americans have the opinion as him. Or All Christians have the same opinion.


I agree that one should not make sweeping generalizations about any group or supposed group based upon the actions of one person.

The irony in your above statement is that you have made plenty of sweeping generalizations about "liberals" and "the left" time and time again based on one or two opinions in here or on the acts of one or two politicians.

Care to retract your past statements?
Degaine

climber
Jul 1, 2014 - 09:57am PT
Wow Sketch, even when someone agrees with you, you get ornery an confrontational. You must be a real blast a parties.

Not a myth, cousins in Missouri, and my wife (before I met her of course) in Tulsa, OK.

But unlike others in here, I really don't care if you choose to face facts or not.

Cheers.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 1, 2014 - 10:25am PT

Care to retract your past statements?

i feel pretty good about what i've said. although i do have an openmind to learn. Got something to teach?
Degaine

climber
Jul 1, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
Sketch,

Me agreeing with you was stating that there's no need to invoke the Nazi's (or Uganda, or whatever other violent dictatorship).

Cheers.
Degaine

climber
Jul 1, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
blueblocr wrote:
i feel pretty good about what i've said. although i do have an openmind to learn. Got something to teach?


So what you are stating is that it's okay when you make sweeping generalizations, but not okay when others making sweeping generalizations (especially when it comes to you're pet issues)?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 3, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
God is soo goood He deserves a promotion! :)
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 3, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
God is good. Good at setting babies on fire and giving people ass cancer.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 6, 2014 - 04:51am PT


Don't want to leave this out...

and it's open!"...


John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

...snap, crackle, pop!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jul 7, 2014 - 01:48am PT
I love it when Christians quote bible passages to heathens, as if quoting the bible is going to make any diffierence.

It just shows that the bible thumpers are utterly ignorant.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 07:01am PT
Ignorance and delusion yes. Where's the bigotry?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 07:34am PT
That describes the religious right wing perfectly.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 07:57am PT
I couldn't agree more Sketch.
ground_up

Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
Jul 7, 2014 - 07:58am PT
I am always amazed that otherwise intelligent people will
argue their views on politics and religion. Why does it matter
that someone believes differently than you ? Are you winning ?
Have you changed their mind yet ?

Didn't think so .

Agreed there is value , but only if you see it.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:05am PT
There is value in learning other viewpoints.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:11am PT
It sure matters if people are using superstitious beliefs to determine government policy!

As for changing people's mind...you are right in that most just keep on truckin' with what was instilled in them at an early age. Whatever nonsense that may be.
I was raised a Catholic and it was drilled into me that if I prayed hard enough God would help.
Taking a hard look at the world I came to realize that God doesn't give a sh#t. And according to the bible, He is murderous and vain. Evil is not too strong a word.

So what has 2000 years of Christianity achieved? Are Christians better off than athiests, or people with other faiths?
Not one bit!
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 7, 2014 - 08:16am PT
You forgot to include "self-rightousness" Dr. F.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 13, 2014 - 06:52am PT



...YES Jesus loves me and you and you and me! :)

Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Jul 13, 2014 - 07:46am PT

Saw a bunch of those traveling through Oregon. I considered adding: "El esta en el desierto." "Si se pueda." "Organizese", etc. (i am not a graffiti artist. i'd worry about the potential pushback.)




























































































Locker edit: "praying" for gud outcomes. Anyone up for climbing a rock and soaking in the view?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 13, 2014 - 08:20am PT
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jul 13, 2014 - 10:25am PT
TY
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
And in Estados Unidos most people think you're strange if you don't believe those biblical fantasies brought to us by.....hmmm, exactly who did pen that stuff?
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Jul 13, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
Ryan: lol. Yolo!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 16, 2014 - 07:39am PT


...and don't let go!
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:53am PT
Don't let go? Or don't touch it in the first place?

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
does anyone have any doubt that a single celled oginism has the ability to adapt, and grow to become something other than the single celled organism?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Where did life come from, again?

Slime mold that is aware of where it is?
Slime mold able to learn?

I know that this may mean nothing to the theist, but this could be the origins of life... if we then add millions of years.....?

Simplest form of life with some intelligence... who would have guessed that god was made up?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxKA4JBesB4]I was just reading about the slime mold problem solving. Very cool indeed!
Of course, religious people will just see this as another example of God's miraculous hand at work. He sure paid a lot of attention to sh#t that has nothing at all to do with humans.

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
You're not the Messiah. You are a very naughty boy.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 17, 2014 - 09:21pm PT

...hey Gozer!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:08am PT

In case there's a fungus among us...


...Please pass the BAR - BQ sauce!
( Begotten, Atonement, Resurrection - Believe, Quickly Rev. 22:20)

This ain't no mild weak sauce, even though Jesus came meek and lowly! :)
Yeti

Trad climber
Ketchum, Idaho
Jul 18, 2014 - 10:50am PT
The United States is not a Christian nation, and the Bible is not the cornerstone of our law.

Don’t take my word for it. Let these Founding Fathers speak for themselves:

John Adams: “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797)

Thomas Jefferson: “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.” (Letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814)

James Madison: “The civil government … functions with complete success … by the total separation of the Church from the State.” (Writings, 8:432, 1819)

George Washington: “If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.” (Letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789)

You can find a multitude of similar quotes from these men and most others who signed the Declaration of Independence and/or formulated the United States Constitution. These are hardly the words of men who believed that America should be a Christian nation governed by the Bible, as a disturbing fundamentalist trend today would have it be.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Yeti
don't confuse them with facts. After all, they don't believe in evolution or climate change.
Just like evolution and climate change, these facts have been stated before.
Willful ignorance remains willful.
WyoRockMan

climber
Flank of the Big Horns
Jul 18, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
Pretty much sums it up:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 19, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
I haven't read all the above, but here is an intelligent discussion on the subject...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88096495
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
WyoRockMan for the win!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:25pm PT

Willful ignorance remains willful.

Haven't you heard, yours don't believe in will. Yours is a world of determination. Thus it is only "i" who can call Yours Willful Ignorance
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
Haven't you heard, yours don't believe in will. Yours is a world of determination. Thus it is only "i" who can call Yours Willful Ignorance

Firstly: you have no idea what my philosophy of mind is.
Secondly: determination is a mental attitude and is a result of Free Will. Your claims are mutually exclusive.
Ergo your conclusion is nonsense.

Or perhaps you meant "determinism"?
There are two realms of determinism. There are the laws of physics, chemistry, gravity, etc.
They are indeed deterministic until you get to the atomic level. Think Schroedinger's Cat.
Some Christians, Jews and Muslims are determined to believe in determinism rooted in God. If he is omniscient and omnipotent he determines everything. Testable and provable physical laws be dam@ed.

Some people believe in deterministic action of animals with "brains". That IS denial of free will and it ain't me. My dog most definitely exhibits free will.

So at least be clear in what you really mean before you try to categorize me.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:43pm PT

don't confuse them with facts. After all, they don't believe in evolution or climate change.

Sounds like ur categorizing christians with this belief?

i'm only ask'in you do the same
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 20, 2014 - 07:46am PT
Eight Ball in the Corner(stone) pocket for the win!

For God and Country...


[Click to View YouTube Video]

...United We Stand!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2014 - 07:50am PT
the next morning he was dead....



jesus h christ...what does the 'H' stand for?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:26am PT
That's quite the story Go-B. Whatever does it mean?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
a relevant historical FYI compiled by Fritz on the Commie thread.

When we get back to the subject of what religion killed the most people-----Google can supply the details that our Christian God was the rally cry for more deaths than any other religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

Both sides in WW I & WW II knew God was on their side.

Since we are on the subject of the "Crusades"

The 4th Crusade against the Islamic Empire, stopped along the way to take out the Eastern Orthodox Christian Capital Constantinople.


The Sack of Constantinople or Siege of Constantinople (also called the Fourth Crusade) occurred in 1204; it destroyed parts of the capital of the Byzantine Empire as the city was captured by Western European and Venetian Crusaders. After the capture the Latin Empire was founded and Baldwin of Flanders was crowned Emperor Baldwin I of Constantinople in the Hagia Sophia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(1204);;



So???? How many people have been killed by the Christian Faith?


http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php

Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)


Ancient Pagans


----------------------------------------------------------------







•As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

•Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

•Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.

•Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]

•Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

•Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."

•In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

•In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

•The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]


Mission


----------------------------------------------------------------







•Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

•Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

•15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]

•16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]


Crusades (1095-1291)


----------------------------------------------------------------







•First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]

•Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]

•9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]

•Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]

•After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]

•Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

•Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."

•The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]

•Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41]

•Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]

•Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]

•Crusades (1095-1291)

•Estimated totals:

•Wertham: 1,000,000

•Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the
Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html]

•Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000


•Individual Events:

•Davies: Crusaders killed up to 8,000 Jews in Rhineland

•Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 1,000 Jewish women in
Rhineland comm. suicide to avoid the mob, 1096.

•Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, v.5, 6

•1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea].

•Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems


•1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred.

•50,000 Pilgrims died of disease.

•1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.

• Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k.

• Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks

• Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.

• 1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre.

• Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred.

•[TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.]


•Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/]

•Jaffa: 20,000 Christians massacred, 1197


•Sorokin estimates that French, English & Imperial German Crusaders lost
a total of 3,600 in battle.

•1st C (1096-99): 400

•2nd C (1147-49): 750

•3rd C (1189-91): 930

•4th C (1202-04): 120

•5th C (1228-29): 600

•7th C (1248-54): 700


•James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992)

•1099: Crusaders slaughter 40,000 inhabs of Jerusalem. Dis/starv reduced
Crusaders from 300,000 to 60,000.

•1147: 2nd Crusades begins with 500,000. "Most" lost to
starv./disease/battle.

•1190: 500 Jews massacred in York.

•1192: 3rd Crusade reduced from 100,000 to 5,000 through famine, plagues and
desertions in campaign vs Antioch.

•1212: Children's Crusade loses some 50,000.

•[TOTAL: Just in these incidents, it appears the Europeans lost around
650,000.]




•TOTAL: When I take all the individual death tolls listed here, weed out
the duplicates, fill in the blanks, apply Occam ("Pluralitas non est
ponenda sine necessitate"), etc. I get a very rough total of 1½ M
deaths in the Crusades.







Heretics and Atheists


----------------------------------------------------------------







•Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]

•Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]

•Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic
neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
•Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]

•Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]


•After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324.
[WW183]

•Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]

•Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).

•Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]

•John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]

•Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]

•University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]


•Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

•Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy.


Witches


----------------------------------------------------------------







•From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.

•In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
[WV]

•Incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times


Religious Wars


----------------------------------------------------------------







•15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]

•1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]

•1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]
Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch hats floated by." [SH216]

•1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]

•17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]

•17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]

•17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]


Jews


----------------------------------------------------------------







•Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians.Number of Jews slain unknown.

•In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]

• 694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

•1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

•1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

•1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

•1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]

•1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

•1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

•1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

•1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

•1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

•1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

•1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

•1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.

•1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.
[MM470-476]

•1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]





(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.


Native Peoples


----------------------------------------------------------------







•Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.

•Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]

•On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]


•Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]

•In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]

•On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]

•The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
•As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]

•The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]

•What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]

•The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]

•"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]

•Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).

•"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
[SH95]


Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of America.





•Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]

•In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no
choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]

•On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War." The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.

•When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]

•So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].

•Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)

•Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]

•Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by Spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]

•The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]

•Other tribes were to follow the same path.

•Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]

•Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]

•In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]

•In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]

•To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about
30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.

•All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.

•A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.

•In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.


More Glorious Events in U.S. History





•Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]



•Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]





•By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'."
[SH244]


20th Century Church Atrocities


----------------------------------------------------------------







•Catholic extermination camps
Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar -
orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did
nothing to prevent them. [MV]



•Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters; the Viet Minh; - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:


"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."


Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of Buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - ; mostly in street riots ; - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 05:08am PT
I agree, but I also think it should be mandatory. We are so ignorant of the dark side of history.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 08:55am PT
"Get the details right." Agreed Sketch, but you have to agree that anyone who is religious always has God on their side.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
Alas! and did my Savior bleed,

Not a big deal when you're Jesus.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
I know, right? Bestest imaginary friend EVER!!!!!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 24, 2014 - 03:19am PT

The hardest thing that Jesus had to endure was not that Judas betrayed Him, that Peter denied Him, or being nailed to the cross, but that the Father had forsaken Him! And that He did for you and me so that the Father would not forsake us, THANK YOU JESUS!!!
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 24, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
the Father had forsaken Him! And that He did for you and me so that the Father would not forsake us

Worst. Dad/creator. Ever.
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Jul 25, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
yea, religion has its place.
those chicks are the best.
the one's strung out on hollow beliefs.

they got pent up sexual frustrations
and misplaced guilt.
these act like a synthetic hymen,
and when you finally breach
that shite they become fornication
superstars.

yea. religion has its place.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jul 25, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
I will have to disagree with Donini ... and I like the guy. Great climber. Inspirational even.



Christopher Columbus, love him or hate him, he did move the Americas into a new direction. It would never be the same ever again. It was 1492 ... he had to leave Spain but fast. He couldn't risk being discovered.

He was a Messianic Jew. He was a Crypto-Jew who believed in The Messiah, Yeshua HaMashiach, aka Jesus the Messiah. He had to hide his Jewish ancestry and his Judaism, since at that time while he was leaving Spain, a certain evil Spanish Catholic Queen was putting Jews to death if they did not convert, and stop their practice of Judaism. Apparently she didn't get the memo. Yeshua HaMashiach was a devout Orthodox Jew, who practiced Judaism, and he had come not to abolish the Law, The Torah, but to fulfill it. And he taught others to do so in like manner. He did not come to start a new religion. Simply Judaism, but now with Messiah. Messiah had come.

So yes, you can say we started with Messianic Judaism in a sense.



WAS CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS A MESSIANIC JEW?
http://www.ramsheadpress.com/messiah/ch16.html

Short answer Yes. The evidence says so.




Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Our laws are modeled after and written from the Ten Commandments.



The Judeo-Christian Values of America
By Ronald R. Cherry
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/09/the_judeochristian_values_of_a.html


We certainly started this way, it was founded this way, as a "Christian" nation. What we are today is another matter.

We need to get back to G-d, back to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Back to HaShem Adonai Elohim. Then you will see the nation healed, and then it will prosper. I pray for that.









Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 25, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
"Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Our laws are modeled after and written from the Ten Commandments."

This worn out little meme is still looking for its supporting evidence. Funny, it's never represented. Oh wait - the Declaration (not our founding charter), In God We Trust and the Pledge of Allegiance (added in the 1940s and 50s). OK!

A mountain of evidence has already been presented here to illustrate the true origins of human rights - both embodied in the Constitution and prior to America's founding.

Hint: It's not Christianity. At all.

Quite the opposite. Christianity borrowed pre-existing ideas - it brought nothing new under the sun at all - although the movement did popularize some. I won't waste the space to repeat any of it.

Aaaand Christianity also borrowed many other well worn ideas - bigotry, Us v Them exclusivity, Absolute Truth (as represented by arguably the most cartoonish, nonsensical theology of all time)the tried and true ideas of bigotry - we're saved, you're not, women as chattel, gays are destroying the world, etc.

Death sucks. Please provide a cartoon we can watch that tells us it isn't so.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 25, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
I know.

When Mighty Mouse comes up short, you just render in a new super power.

The Christian Nation meme needs to be countered - over and over. We should be proud of the secular humanist society we've built. We need to continue to distance ourselves from history's most used justification for bigotry - religion. We need to wipe this baby crap off our shoes and step up to all the promise true modernity holds for us.

Fortunately, the upcoming generation seems to get this.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jul 25, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
Yes, modern Christianity ties into "borrows" from Judaism, hence the name Judeo-Christian. Don't you know the Jews read the Tenahk, the OT, and "Christians" read the OT and NT? Never said it didn't.

However, many "Christians" are now returning to the true roots, and practicing Messianic Judaism. That what it was for the first 300-400 years after Yeshua ascended back to the Father. They worshiped in Synagogues. Remember, Yeshua didn't come to start a new religion. It was Judaism with Messiah. Messiah had come. Then man got a hold of it (Rome) and then things really started to go bad. Oh vey!

Judaism does not borrow from any other religion. It is the one true faith that G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and revealed through them to Israel, the Jews.


And yes Western Civilized law is based-on, modeled after, reflects, founding principles of truth as revealed through the 10 Commandments given to Moshe (Moses) on Mt. Sinai by G-d.




Keeping this climbing related:

(By the way, HaShem, G-d is way into climbing. He's always asking his followers, servants, prophets, and even his very Son, to come up the mountain. Something very special about climbing and going up the mountain. Yeshua more than likely climbed Mt. Hermon, when he transfigured before two of his disciples while talking to two other heavenly beings.)

Mt. Hermon (9,232', 2,814m)




By the way, you can ski Mt. Hermon!

http://hermonski.co.il/index.php





Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 25, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
Nope, you still don't get it. Until you do some research that doesn't limit itself to the Bible or Torah - you will continue to be in the dark on this.

The earliest writings on humanism and human rights hail from the Greeks. No Yawah involved.

There were likely earlier takes on humanism that have been lost.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
tvash, meet klimmer. :)

.....

few people have an original thought...

Speak for yourself.

In fact, your posts by and large sound like Klimmer's. Are you his twin?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 25, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
People in increasing numbers are discovering that its so much easier to treat each other better without God telling you you need to be an as#@&%e or suffer His consequences.

Just say no to the cartoon.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 25, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
We're the same as 5000 years ago?

Um...no we're not - by any measure.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jul 25, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
Tvash,

HaShem Adonai Elohim's salvation plan starts with Adam and Eve, the first modern Homo sapien couple. (We aren't talking about hominids from before that time. That is a whole other discussion.) We are talking approximately 5774 years ago BC/BCE, according to the Jewish calendar based on the genealogy from Adam. This was long before the Greeks were ever around.

When Adam and Eve sinned, who walked in the Garden and asked them "Where are you?" In other words, Where do you find yourselves now?

That was per-incarnate Yeshua, The Angel of The Lord, often called Metatron by Rabbinic Orthodox Jews. G-d already had the plan before the creation of the Universe. He knew what we would do and how it would all go down through history. The word of G-d was already written, it just had to be given to man or written through men under his inspiration.

HaShem is omnipotent.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 25, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
Adam and Eve.

OK.

Bye!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 27, 2014 - 10:41am PT
^^^Is that a Theory, or Scientific Conclusion?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 27, 2014 - 11:08am PT

Personally, I agree that mostly we haven't changed much.

Naw, ....and prolly not much between 5k-10k yrs ago? But what about 10k-20k yrs ago, or 20k-200k yrs ago? Mother Nature obviously didn't change much. Or we ALL would've stopped breath'in! Are we much different than "Lucy", the "first" human? Communicatively yea!, but Characterly? Did she spawn conscious, or did conscious spawn her? Seems queer that mother nature would spawn a female before a male, needing that testosterone and sh!t for the stronger to survive?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 27, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
I said this many years ago here but for sake of reinforcement sure I'll say it again...

The Abrahamic religions, all of them - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - are pushers of superstition... and as those educated in science already know... pushers of superstition have no future.

I thank Zeus everyday for the likes of Neil deGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc..

What hope there is lies in young people. Go young people!
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Jul 27, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 27, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
pushers of superstition have no future.

I thank Zeus everyday for the likes of Neil deGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc..

i thank God everyday for the likes of them and you! For we All have Truths to share. They are gifts, both genetic and spiritual. No matter if your using them to move away from God, or closer to Him.

We should ALL give Thanks!

These three gentlemen's career has taken a trajectory opposite the bible.
They could be thankful for having something to oppose?

In the Deterministic Cause-and-effect system, what is the benefit of opposition?



vvvyou haven't seen their video's?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 27, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
Opposite the Bible? They are scientists and philosophers. They are not biased by the Bible.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jul 28, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
And yet so many of our founding fathers of modern science were believers.

Science and Faith go together to make the person whole. Why do you only want to use half your brain and half your abilities? Modern Natural Philosophy is still the way to harmonize it all.


Want to see our nation healed and do better for everyone? What to see rain in due season and end the drought? The word of G-d is full of examples where G-d held back the blessings to a nation, and held back the rain, due to the sins and corruption of a nation.




2 Chronicles 7:14 ( KJV)
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jul 28, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
"aliens in hidden craft on the dark side of the moon"

Religious aliens hidden there would be bad.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 28, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
Heretics putting faith to the test and making money doing it.

http://www.engrish.com/2009/04/you-said-you-wanted-the-body-of-a-god/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jul 28, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
Christian Aliens? ETs are believers in HaShem Adonai Elohim?
Probing and abducting ETBs have the love of Yeshua HaMashiach in their hearts?


Hardly.


Even the well known (non believer in Yeshua) famous French scientist Jacques Vallee knew enough after scientifically and thoroughly studying the abduction phenom all around the world and interviewing many many eye witnesses and those who were probed and or abducted personally or had personal close encounters ... ET/Aliens are demonic. They aren't who they say they are. They are absolutely evil. They lie.

I wouldn't expect anything different from Satan's minions. It's a last days lie and false scenario. Yeshua said "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the day of the coming of the Son of Man." Paraphrased.

Welcome to The Days of Noah 2.0

Or The Return of the Nephilim 2.0

Aliens are not what they say they are. They lie.

Now you should realize why there is such a strong connection between the occult world, Satanism and UFOs/Aliens/ETs throughout all the world.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vallée


A Hollywood movie that really draws this out well is "The Fourth Kind."

ETs are demons who want the world to believe they created man. They want to be known as the creators of man and want our worship.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-real-story-behind-the-fourth-kind

It draws its horrific story from many different stories that did happen and then puts its own twist into it all.



Hhhhhhmmmmm. Where have I heard this before? Oh yea when Satan was tempting Yeshua in the wilderness for 40 days, he also promised Yeshua everything if he would only just bow down and worship Lucifer.

Not gonna happen. Be gone Satan! Resist him in Yeshua's name and he will flee from you.

If you ever have a 3rd encounter or worse a 4th encounter with Aliens or ET, then call on the name of The Lord and rebuke them in Yeshua's name and they will flee from you. Many who have bear witness to this testimony.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
No, I don't believe in either heaven or hell. Quite liberating, really, no obsessing about whether or not pete is going to open the gate for me. I only wish I had more organic material to put back into circulation....it's the least you can do.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
Amen donini for your unbelief for we know God is using you to save the soul of someone else, just as He used those that put Jesus on the cross, so "...that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

God is "not willing that any should perish" but He doesn't ignore non-believers, praise God!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
Oh, I dont "obsess" over whether or not "pete's going to open the gate" or not either. That cliche' is a perfect example of salvation by works, a scale system, whether you've done enough good in your life to "tip the scale" in the "right" direction. This is being unSURE whether or not if you died today your soul would spend eternity in heaven. Some faiths continue to pray a soul into heaven after they die. You see, therein lies a big difference, for I'm 100% sure of my place in the "Lambs book of Life." Therefore, I'm ABSOLUTELY liberated as well...glory to GOD!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
Amen donini for your unbelief for we know God is using you

LOL!

"God"

Would that be Apollo or Artemis (Son or Daughter of Zeus)? Amon-Re (of the ancient Egyptians)? Oh, that's right, you're a Christian so by definition that would mean the Jehovah/Jesus combo.

What country is this? What century is this?


Don't think this bronze age nonsense doesn't leave its effects on our culture. Hey, where is America's superconducting super collider (SSC). Oh yeah, it's in Europe now. Merely one of hundreds of signs that America is losing it - its edge, its leadership. Drop by drop. Day by day.

whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

Verily, an out of date meme if ever there was one.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
"Ignorance is bliss..."

Amen HF, but those would be "gods" you speak of, not the Father/Son/Holy Spirit trinity, GOD.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
^^^zzzzzzzzz...
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
Carbon monoxide is odorless, therefore god is imaginary.

Correct!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Merely one of hundreds of signs that America is losing it - its edge, its leadership. Drop by drop. Day by day.

Correct again!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
for we know God is using you to save the soul of someone else


A historic example of this is God knew how Pharaoh would respond, and He knew that the more light that He gave to Pharaoh, the more Pharaoh would harden his heart. God sent the light anyway, because He determined to use Pharaoh's rebellion to be a megaphone of warning to others who might respond to God's warning and repent.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
Well, when the sh#t hits the fan, I just hope there is a way that you, your brethren and the fundamentalist Islamists can go at it hot and heavy but leave the rest of us out of it (incl the young ones).

Not very likely though. Extended families and friends end up getting pulled into it, don't they. Abrahamic religions poison everything.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Verily, an out of date meme if ever there was one.


Wrong...again. This scripture is as current a "meme" and even more applicable as it was when it was penned.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
OT:

Climbing much HF?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Speaking of memes, close your eyes and have a listen, first four minutes or so...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAvlimEYEpQ#t=62

It's a shame so much ugliness accompanies such beauty.
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
I didn't even bother to listen HF...but I'm guessing it's what I heard plenty of while over in Iraq next to the Euphrates...scary!

Nothing like what you'd hear coming from my sound system while enjoying a cup of coffee...hope to do that some day with you!
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 29, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
OT:

Climbing much HF?

go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 30, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
Hey donini, it's not about being compost, cuz fat breaks down faster than gristle! :)

I'm a Christian because of Jesus!
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Jul 31, 2014 - 07:15pm PT

...Ciao!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Jul 31, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Jul 31, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
We are much more. We are a mosaic of different creeds, colors and cultures. We are a nation where the children of parents who couldn't speak english win the National Spelling Bee. We are a land where, more than nearly everywhere else, opportunity is a function of striving more than it is of birth. Everyone here, with the exception of Native Americans, is an immigrant or a descendent of immigrants.
Anyone who believes we are a nation based on one color, creed or culture is on the wrong side of history. (OP in it's entirety)

Why the f*#k is the word "Christian" in the topic/ title?
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
Jul 31, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
Yes, we are a Christian nation.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Aug 1, 2014 - 05:11am PT

...chow!
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 1, 2014 - 06:42am PT
Yes, we are a Christian nation.

Says the Christian... LOL.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Aug 3, 2014 - 07:15am PT
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

...by the name of Jesus Christ, but thank God there is one! :)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 10, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
From the
"Now You've Got To Be a Christian to re-up in the Air Force" department
The US air force has told an atheist airman he must swear his re-enlistment oath to God or he will not be allowed to reenlist, according to the American Humanist.

The airman, who is stationed at Creech air force base in Nevada, has not been identified. The service said he has until November to swear the oath required of all servicemembers, which concludes with the phrase “so help me God”.

The American Humanist Association said in a letter to the air force (pdf) last week that the officer was told that he either had to say the phrase or leave the service. The airman has previously crossed out the phrase in a written contract and refused to say it out loud, and was told August 25 that the contract would therefore not be accepted for re-enlistment.

The group believes the oath as currently required is a violation of the airman’s constitutional rights under the first amendment and demanded that he be allowed to re-enlist without using the phrase.

US law requires the phrase to be included in the oath given to all servicemembers, though its implementation is left to each branch of the military. Air force members could omit the phrase until the service updated its directive on the oath in October 2013. Before that, the instruction for the oath included the phrase: “Airmen may omit the words ‘so help me God,’ if desired for personal reasons.”

The air force has said it cannot change the rule without congressional action.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/us-air-force-sergeant-reenlist-god-oath
Odd,
I don't recall that being an atheist would get you out of admission to the Armed Forces during the Vietnam War. Would have been a lot simpler than the whole Conscientious Objected application process. They probably put the atheists right out there on the front lines.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
"Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
OH boy post #1500

Being against something only gives it more power.
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Sep 10, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
man you guys remind me of those people always shouting that gibberish "takbir!" "Allah-u-akbar!" etc, etc.

anyway, continue with your yargle-bargle.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 11, 2014 - 09:49am PT
When signing up for the Air Farce, I wonder if instead of
"So help me God"

can you say "Im s'Allah"?
or "So help me Elohim?
or "Blessings from Brahman"?

hmmm......what could a Buddhist say?
I guess Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists will be as out of luck as atheists.

perhaps the Navy will have them?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 11, 2014 - 10:24am PT
Christian organizations are now trying to ban athiests from the military.

What a great idea! Send the christians to war and kill them all!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 11, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
^^^^
Crusades!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
Sep 11, 2014 - 08:25pm PT




speak no evil, dudes.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Sep 14, 2014 - 07:47am PT
Not entirely clear but the above numnut is apparently a racist christian who hates the race of
Jesus. Who, by the way, is the only way to heaven.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:19am PT
It's sometime too easily forgotten that the early Christians were in fact Jews.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:23am PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:53am PT
no ron we aren't a muslim nation. either.
WBraun

climber
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:54am PT
Atheists lop off heads too.

Big fuking deal.

You people are so stupid.

This thread is like watching backwater yokels playing Klu Klux klan.

Nutcases ....
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 14, 2014 - 11:03am PT
I can only speak of Muslims here in my area. They put on food drives, Shelter the homeless, arrange financial aid to the poor, and set up countless other charitable groups. So far, i havent seen or read about any of them be- heading anyone.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Sep 14, 2014 - 01:02pm PT

...What will you do when your stogie goes out and you spill your drink?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 14, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
Tell me Chief
how many Muslims do you know?
Would you trust them with your kids?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 14, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
Again, i will ask,, when the last time was ANY OF YOU heard or saw a CHristian be-heading someone?


Never.

Christians just kill people in other horrible ways.

The old coat-hanger-in-the-uterus is still a problem today because christians insist of forcing their own version of sharia on everyone else.

Christians are far better at destroying millions of lives through devious means rather than the thousands of people who are outright murdered by muslims.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 14, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
Chief
you are so predictable.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 14, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
what about the boston marathon bombers, and oh yea 911?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 14, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
How is that an insult?
You could say I'm predictable and it would be largely true.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 14, 2014 - 02:35pm PT

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area

Sep 14, 2014 - 11:03am PT
I can only speak of Muslims here in my area. They put on food drives, Shelter the homeless, arrange financial aid to the poor, and set up countless other charitable groups. So far, i havent seen or read about any of them be- heading anyone.

i like see legitimacy in this assertion. i've never witnessed anyhting of the sort. Got pics?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 14, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Chief,

I see no difference whatsoever between your last photo and christian groups forcing young girls to shove a coat hanger up their uterus because christians force their religion on everyone else.

No difference whatsoever.

Unfortunately, I am fresh out of photos of young girls dying of blood poisoning from failed self-abortion attempts. Sorry.

But this is the most horrifying image that we have in America, as it stands for the same thing that is shown in your last photo Chief.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 14, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
Arent you a "super-infidel" that would make issis PROUD as punch to be-head???


Yeah, and while flying at 600 mph down creek beds was an uber-cool experience for a 25-year old, I regret allowing myself to be brain-washed by the U.S. Government to perform their stupid tricks. I despise nationalism and flag waving and chest beating.

I hate it almost as much as I hate religion.

The reason that we're sending kids off to war to have their limbs blown off and their brains blown out is because American nationalism and flag waving and chest beating has created so many enemies. Quit creating enemies and quit supporting terrorists states like Israel.

DUH!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 14, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 15, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Sep 15, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Sep 15, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
Christianity? Who still believes in that stupid sh#t? Can't you be a decent person without the fear of eternal damnation? Of is that the only thing that motivates Christians, a fear of some deity the condemns them to hellfire if they don't act nice?
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Sep 15, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
The Gideons were about today, pushing little free green books on the people just headed in to work or school. I said, "No thanks, I prefer non-fiction."
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 15, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
fear of eternal damnation is the only path to heaven. got nothing to do with decency.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 16, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
What do some Christian Evangelist "educators" have in common with ISIS in Mosul Iraq?
The new curriculum even went so far as to explicitly ban Charles Darwin's theory of evolution — although it was not previously taught in Iraqi schools.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/16/islamic-state-ban-evolution_n_5829410.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The Founding Fathers had very very good reasons for separating church from state, including public education. We allow ANY religion into public schools and the government at our own peril.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2014 - 07:24pm PT

The Founding Fathers had very very good reasons for separating church from state,

You people are always twisting this up!

The Founding (Christian) Fathers kept the State from the Church

Should be oblivious by the tax representation. If the State was incharge do you really think they would allow the Church to be untaxable?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 16, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
If the State was incharge do you really think they would allow the Church to be untaxable
Careful what you say.
Sounds like a good reason to start taxing churches.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Church's are "for profit" corporations that should be taxed. That garbage they spew out to pull in the dough wouldn't past muster with the food and drug administration. If they were retaurants or pharmacies they wouldn't have anything to sell.
thebravecowboy

climber
hold on tight boys
Sep 16, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Sep 16, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
that christ sure is a task master. He probably didn't flip his own tables or carry his own cross.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 17, 2014 - 01:17am PT
the first federal income tax was levied in 1861. The Founding Fathers werent involved.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 17, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Churches are tax cheats same as any other Corporation.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 17, 2014 - 09:32am PT
Right about the Income Tax.
So for once I'm going to let someone else dig out the facts.
When were religious institutions in the US first absolved from tax liability? After all there were taxes and levies from day one of The Republic.
Which taxes do they pay now, if any?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Well well.
The Air Force has seen the error of their ways and corrected it. Atheists may again join.
The US air force has allowed an atheist airman to re-enlist after initially refusing to process the his paperwork, because he refused to sign an oath that contained the phrase “so help me God”.

The service announced the policy reversal after the American Humanist Association threatened to file suit by 19 September .

“After fighting for our rights, non-theists now again have the status quo in the Air Force, a secular affirmation consistent with other branches of service and our Constitution”, said Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, in a statement.

The unnamed airman, stationed at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada, was allowed to sign a secular affirmation to the service. Initially, the airman struck the phrase “so help me God” from his paperwork, and refused to say the phrase during a verbal oath when attempting to re-enlist on 25 August.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/18/us-air-force-atheist-airman-reeinlist
The Air Force was standing alone
Other American armed services, the army, navy and marines, all allow servicemembers to swear secular oaths if they object to the references to God.
Air force secretary Deborah Lee James said the air force has since been instructed to allow airmen to swear a secular oath.

“We take any instance in which airmen report concerns regarding religious freedom seriously,” said James in a statement. “We are making the appropriate adjustments to ensure our airmen’s rights are protected.”
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2014 - 11:31am PT
yes

There's no difference between atheist and theist except atheist is unconscious of God and theist is conscious of God.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 18, 2014 - 11:32am PT
The Catholic church's tax exemption has given enough financial advantage over other entities to gobble up hospital after hospital. Currently they own 20% of America's hospital beds, and 45% in WA. The problem is - they deny their patients (who often have no other options in rural areas) family planning and end of life services, as required by law, due to their Ethical and Religious Directive (ie, purely religious reasons).

This is a problem the ACLU is going to take on - but the landscape has become more difficult in the wake of the SCOTUS Hobby Lobby decision.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
the deny their patients (who often have no other options in rural areas) family planning and end of life services, as required by law, due to their Ethical and Religious Directive
My wife, an oncology nurse has seen this happen in a Catholic hospital. She could not even give her patient's family the recommendation to seek hospice counseling. It disturbed her greatly.

However her Catholic brother in law just died of cancer in a Catholic hospice. He was treated with the greatest respect and allowed to die in the natural course of his disease. That is compassionate Christianity.
It does exist in enlightened hospices.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 18, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
A society needs to explicitly decide where, exactly, the separation of church and state lies in cases where entities, like the Catholic church, willfully flout the law (everyone else has to follow).

One solution is to pass legislation that differentiates between institutions whose primary purpose is to serve the general public (hospitals), and those whose primary purpose is religious education and indoctrination (churches and religious schools). The former would be required to offer all the survives required by law in a manner required by same.

This constitutes new legal ground, and is therefore a somewhat risky strategy to pursue.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2014 - 09:09pm PT

The Catholic church's tax exemption has given enough financial advantage over other entities to gobble up hospital after hospital. Currently they own 20% of America's hospital beds, and 45% in WA. The problem is - they deny their patients (who often have no other options in rural areas) family planning and end of life services, as required by law, due to their Ethical and Religious Directive (ie, purely religious reasons).

Are you kidd'in me??? Business is Business. Remember, Democracy?

The "family planners" and "end of lifers" can start their own business then!

Next u'll want to mandate Mcdonalds sell tacos.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2014 - 09:14pm PT

A society needs to explicitly decide where, exactly, the separation of church and state lies in cases where entities, like the Catholic church, willfully flout the law (everyone else has to follow).

i'm not on the catholics side mind you. i'm on the free- enterprise side.

What is the difference between Hooters only hiring big busted women?
thebravecowboy

climber
hold on tight boys
Sep 18, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
Next u'll want to mandate Mcdonalds sell tacos.

and yes, this would be a real travesty
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 18, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
A society needs to explicitly decide where, exactly, the separation of church and state lies in cases where entities, like the Catholic church, willfully flout the law (everyone else has to follow)


But we are a Christian nation:

7 day week with Sundays off. (Jewish, then picked up by Christians)

If it were up to me we'd be on a 12 day week with 2 days off.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 2, 2015 - 04:53pm PT
This Louisiana public school is essentially a theocratic institution:



According to several students and the Shreveport Times, Bibles were thrown at kids who refused to accept them. Rowland took no disciplinary action after the incident, saying he hadn’t had complaints.
...
Lucy, the Airline junior, told me that they’ve had assemblies where guest speakers have “given their Christian testimony” and mentioned a specific instance where the founder of a local gym, the Christ Fit Gym, gave a speech about overcoming post-traumatic stress disorder through his faith in Jesus. “We were required to go to it,” said Lucy.


There are many other examples in the article.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/11/christianity_forced_on_public_school_students_in_louisiana.html
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 2, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
isn't Louisiana known for it's stellar cragging? what a shame....
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Nov 2, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
But we are a Christian nation:

7 day week with Sundays off. (Jewish, then picked up by Christians)

If it were up to me we'd be on a 12 day week with 2 days off.

Jews worship on the Sabbath (Friday night to Saturday evening), as directed by God in the 10 Commandments. Christian mythology adopted Sunday as the holy day (celebrating the resurrection of Christ on Easter Sunday) probably because it was already the normal day of worship for most of the pagan converts which made up the early church.
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