WoS / PTPP, part XXV (continued from XXIV )


Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 221 - 236 of total 236 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:11pm PT
Well, I guess in the end, it seems that Teth makes the most overarchingly cogent point: "Style vs. Ethics." Nice job, Teth.

Darod, I HAVE very much appreciated your perspective throughout all the discussions, and I'll share some sort of beverage with you ANY time!

I still don't see how the Zamacs mean that the route is now for us alone, but sometimes I can be dense (seriously). Anyway, I guess we now own an El Cap route. Cool. :-)

Dang, I just thought of a major problem, and it has really destroyed my cool! If those rivets start getting replaced with the bolts that some think are needed, then our ownership will trickle through our fingers.... Soon, just ANY sort of riff-raff will be "bold" enough to go up on the route! It won't be just for us any more! Arggg! Noooo! People can't DO that to OUR route!!! I see ONLY one option: Mark and I are just going to have to take up shifts across the Valley with a high-powered rifle and at least wing anybody who even THINKS about replacing those rivets!!! I don't own MUCH in this world, and I'm NOT losing WoS! Can I get some help on this from any of you? Darod? Anybody who's been sympathetic? Come ON guys, band together! Help us KEEP what's OURS!!!

(Sorry... don't know what got into me. I'm all better now.)

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:21pm PT
see richard? you still don't get it! the valley is steeped in traditions and precident. there is no historical precident for protecting your turf in the valley w/ a high powered rifle! if you want to keep the "riff raff" off of what you view as "your" chunk of the big stone, you have to climb something above them and drop poop bags...

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
Matt, with the limited information you had, I can certainly understand you not "getting it" about how best to protect YOUR resource. It's sad. Really. Poop bombs are the "small guns." Pathetic.

Actually Mark and I DO know from a very well-known, although now dead, Valley boy that threat of a high-powered rifle IS the best way to keep the riff-raff from degrading a route, like, say, the Sea of Dreams. So, I KNOW first-hand how effective such a prospect can be, and if it can keep the Sea pure, it can keep WoS pure! Without that ol high-powered rifle looking over our shoulder, there's just no telling what we would have done to the Sea!

So, Matt, I appreciate what you're saying, but, man, you've just got to be prepared to REALLY step up to the plate.

Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:33pm PT
Classic Matt. Classic!

Edit: OH, I don’t think Madbolter1 got it.

Edit 2: Or is mad just being sarcastic too? Now I am confused. I assumed Matt was pointing out the absurdity of the whole protect your turf mentality.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:38pm PT
That's not true, Werner.

Tom replaced the bolts and rivets on the first two pitches. The rivets will indeed hold short falls when you put a Yates Scream-Aid onto it. They're every bit as strong as a head, maybe stronger. An aid route that involves runout hooking above heads is legit.

Also, as you can read above in great metallurgical detail, the existing rivets and bolts are not bad, either, and will still hold falls when equipped with Yates fall arresters. Ammon proved this with three fifty-footers onto [an] old bolt[s].

The route is not enhanced when you compare it to any others. If there are any enhancements, I couldn't see them.

Quit whining, start climbing. If you think it's so terrible and chipped and everything, why not go take a look at it now? Maybe Ammon would let you use his ropes? Or you could try to climb it like me - it's pretty darn hard. I'll raise my offer to Ammon, and make it a case of beer delivered to the base of Wings of Steel! I'll get Randy to help, cuz he wants to take pictures. How much more incentive can we give Ammon? He's at five cases already!

Matt - you have a lot to say for a guy who has never stood on a hook. Or have you? Have you done any hooking whatsoever? If so, please share with us the total number of hook moves you have made while leading aid climbs. Note: "Zero" is an acceptable answer if it is true.

I still have an outstanding [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=234216&f=0&b=0#msg236621"]question for John Middendorf.[/url] This link will take you to it, and put the question into context. Please answer beneath.

Now guys, have a good look at this photo. This is pretty much representative of the kind of hook moves I found on Wings of Steel. They are sick, scary and runout. If you move a hair, you're off. It is very difficult and strenuous to make a hook placement like this work.

Now, I will tell you that this is probably as extreme a hook placement as I was able to use. Most of the placements are better, but here's the thing - the hook placements are not really much better than what you see above!

The points I want to make are this:

The hooking is sick, hard, runout and scary
It takes Balls of Steel to climb stuff like this
Whatever enhancement these guys made, you won't be able to see because the enhancements are truly at a microscopic level

Now follow this logic - if this is the sort of hook placement that Mark and Richard actually used on the route, then ask yourself this question:

How much artificial enhancement would a more marginal placement then this one above take to render it useable, in other words, to bring it to the same size edge of as this? Answer this question, and you may get an idea of the level of enhancement these guys might have made in a few places!

If you can actually find the far-greater-than-actual "2.33 enhancements per pitch", then you have better eyes than me, cuz I couldn't see Dick on a stick.

I repeat - Mark and Richard are too damn honest! If these said, "we made no enhanced hook placements," then anybody climbing up there would agree. In their quest be be forthcoming in every detail, it is almost as though they are shooting themselves in the foot.

What nobody seems to be understanding here is the truly futuristic nature of this route! Look at the bloody hook above! Now imagine standing on it, and trying to move up. What do you find? Something else just as sick! And now you're ten, fifteen, twenty feet or more above your last bolt. How are you feeling now??? [Answer: me - pass the puke bag]

Now here is another point you guys seem to be overhammering. Hundred-bolt routes were put up on El Cap subsequent to Wings of Steel. Even counting enhancements, these guys drilled fewer lead bolts and rivets per pitch on Wings of Steel when compared to some later routes.

You know, when you drive a piton into a crack, you have to listen to it. With each subsequent whack of the hammer, the pitch of the piton's ring goes up, but the change in pitch is very slight. You need something of a musical ear to detect it. When the piton is fully driven, then two blows of the hammer will emit the very same musical note. At this point, you need to stop. You have said as much to the piton with your hammer as you can possibly say, because if you hit it any more, you will overdrive the pin, and actually loosen it.

Wings of Steel may be the most overdriven piton in the history of this forum! Recently, I scored as the Second-Most Loquacious after Lois, with a word count of 141 per post. Can someone please calculate Richard Jensen's average word count? He might be #1!

Hey Richard - I bet you overdrive your pin placements, too! Doncha?! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
Yeah Matt, don't think madbolther1 got, go easy on him...


edit: ditto Teth! is the joke on us now?

Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
Just to clarify, how long is a Leeper narrow hook? It measures 7 inches on my 19" monitor, so I am guessing that hook placement looks two or three times larger in that photo than it actually is. Knowing how long the hook is would give some scale to the photo.

Aug 11, 2006 - 12:59pm PT

I think we were talking about purposely placing bad rivets and not copperheads.

I always thought if you drill a hole for protection you put something in there to hold. (The rivets were never intended to hold falls) Not making time bombs.

The route is made for others too?

Just me wondering how people think in terms of ....... ? the community and others that will follow.

Edit: So all this is fine, but no wonder no one has done this variation on El Cap. You need to be so bad ass and have balls of steel to do. Most people are not crazy.

Trad climber
South Side Billburg
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:00pm PT
the leepers are about 3", maybe 2 1/2"? something in that neighborhood...

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:28pm PT
I have to confess that time-wise I've been unable to keep up with all the posts, so forgive me if I spout off on things already hashed out. Regarding our use of Zamac rivets, our intent was several fold: keep the commitment level high, create something reliable for future ascent parties, leave as small of a footprint as possible. No device is best at even two of these, let alone all three. We felt the Zamac was the best device available to compromise all three concerns. I still feel that the Zamac was the best choice because I haven’t seen anything else that does a better job at balancing these three issues. However, given the flack we’ve taken for them, having to do over we likely would have chosen something else out of respect for the will of community at large. But I should note that when Tom told me that he was going to replace the rivets on the first two pitches I asked him if he would save the removed rivets for me. He gave me four of them. The stainless steel nails which are the key to their strength had essentially no corrosion and looked as strong as the day they were place. The lead alloy sleeves have become noticeably brittle, but seem to have more than enough integrity to keep the nails in place. I would much rather lead the climb today with modern screamer technology than I would with new rivets and no screamers. My major point is that we intended to leave a repeatable route and the recently removed rivets indicate that we succeeded.

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:42pm PT
Dang it, Teth/darod... I was the FIRST one to post the sarcasm about protecting MY resource, THEN Matt hopped on MY bandwagon. Then I upped the ante. But it's MY bandwagon! MINE, MINE, MINE! Don't you see??? (sniff, sniff). I'm so misunderstood! (sniff, sniff) You guys are sooooo MEAN! (sniffle) (I take back everything I said about sharing a beverage with you, darod... you meanie!)

(On my site, from which that pic is taken, there's another with a thumb holding it, which gives a sense of scale. Both of the pics show hooks that did hold body weight.)

OVERdrive, Pete? You have no idea. I put pitons into pin scars, when HB nuts would have been perfect. THEN, I take a two-pound sledge to 'em until that ol' eye is FLUSH. "Rising tones???" Bah! Don't need 'em! THEN, I pull out the five-pounder for a few extra whacks, you know, just to make sure! THEN, because I hate to fall... ever... I have Mark send me up the two-handed twenty-pounder, I lean waayyy back in my aiders, pull that big brute waaayyy back, and give that piton ONE more good hit, just for good measure! THEN, finally, I give that puppy racks-over-the-head, agressive testing before I eeeeaaaassse up on it.

Oh, and then I notice that I had threaded a manky old 1/2-inch tie-off through the eye of it, and I'm scared anyway! Does THAT answer your question?

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 11, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
Pete, I think John is trying to answer your question on a new thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=237505&f=0&b=0

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 11, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
Some of you have been asking, who is this Mark guy? Relative to Richard, he seems like a real nice, some have said “reserved.” And he never descends into ALL CAPS. Looking over the recent posts, it seems like a good time to shed some light on this. The main difference it twofold. First and most importantly, Richard doesn’t care a whole lot about being PC, at least relative to me, when being PC conflicts with saying what needs to be said. So I while I’m putting a big chunk of my neural power into thinking about how others will “feel” when they read what I write, Richard uses his neural power toward considering what needs to be said and whether it is logically consistent. Second, esp. over the last few weeks, I’ve been insanely busy with other demands which means you hear less from me. The truth is that Richard and I are much more similar in real life than we appear and philosophically are pretty close to twins. So feel free to address us collectively and know that if you met us you’d probably conclude that I’m more opinionated and Richard is more flexible than you would have expected.

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Aug 11, 2006 - 02:33pm PT
pete said, "Wings of Steel may be the most overdriven piton in the history of this forum! Recently, I scored as the Second-Most Loquacious after Lois, with a word count of 141 per post. Can someone please calculate Richard Jensen's average word count? He might be #1!"

Puhlease, you have an enginering degree right pete? Please factor in WHAT is being said into the actual word count. In terms of the BS level, there is no equal to LEB. Factor in that she is a troll and I take that as meaning that all her posts are 100% BS.

uhoh. That means you guys might be #1 and #2 on the Real Scale...But hey, if it helps you guys any, I personaly would rather read 100 words from a real character than 1 from a troll.


Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 11, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
I've tried to follow nearly all of the WoS epic (including the original WoS threads) but recently it seems to have exploded and amplified exponentially in many directions so it's possible that I've missed or passed over several critical points of argument (is there a Cliff Notes or Grand Flow Chart version in the works?).

Months back I recall talk of topos: the published Reid topo (which I have), another published topo, and also talk of an original lost topo ... can someone please post a clear, reliable, and verified topo of the route?

PS: I understand that the FAists carefully recorded their aid placements en route. I also realize that the FAist's memories may be faulty on this one point, but if at all possible can you please post a marked-up topo that identifies the location of the enhanced hook placements?

Thanks a bunch.

(This is getting burly, maybe time to split into part XXVI)

Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 04:37pm PT
Go here to continue this thread:


Please do not post anymore to this particular thread
Messages 221 - 236 of total 236 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

Try a free sample topo!

SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews