Discussion Topic |
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 30, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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More often than not I think older climbers are rare because of desire reduction rather than body deterioration. The old saying "Use it or lose it" is part of the equation. Probably the reason for the lack of "Use it" is that it's easier to sit on the couch than get up and do something. This desire to "sit on the couch" may be more motivated by the old saying "been there, done that" rather than older climbers bodies giving up. Another thing to consider is the older climbers you do see have some kind of unusual, unexplained, inner motivation that keeps them coming back. I have, for some time, referred to this as being "BLESSED" (Kind of a religious term but appropriately descriptive none-the-less). I believe some are BLESSED and others aren't. It may be a random thing that you either have or don't have. However, there may be an action component in there with regards to actions you take and decisions you have made all through your life. I know that the longer you live the more opportunity you have for injuries that can cause chronic problems and and in addition you may have additional physical ailments. This certainly accounts for some of the reason there aren't more older climbers but this issue probably accounts for less than the issues I discussed above. For purposes of this post I am calling an older climber one that is at least 65 years old because I am 69 and it's my post. Unfortunately many in the 40+ group (or even younger) also consider themselves old so hopefully something they read in the following posts may cause them to reconsider their "old" status. I really want this post to be more about Older climbers providing insight into the BLESSED issue and about their ability to get up in the morning and get with it. (I know BLESSED is kinda corny but it's the best I could come up with). The bottom line: IF YOU THINK YOU'RE OLD, YOU'RE OLD.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 30, 2014 - 11:23am PT
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There are several factors....mind and body. If you let yourself get out of shape as you age you're in trouble....it becomes much more difficult to regain conditioning. I know a lot of older climbers still with desire but who are troubled by joint issues. Let's face it, body parts wear out.
Then there are the myriad of climbers who just give into the temptation to sit on the patio, drink in hand, and wax poetic about the good old days.
As energy levels wane with aging, a concerted effort has to be made to get off of the couch. Trust me, once you do that the rest is comparatively easy.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 30, 2014 - 11:25am PT
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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Once into your 70s you may find that changes in the body occur faster and effort is required to maintain (not increase) physical ability. This takes will power coupled with the desire to delay the inevitable as long as possible.
Climbing is well suited to these efforts for skill can substitute for power and strength at times and distribution of effort across the entire frame of one's body helps. But be cautious with balance - the most fundamental aspect of climbing.
Bodyweight exercises are generally harder with their focused requirements of certain muscle groups, but people like Fred Archembault of New Hampshire have managed to do many (20) consecutive pull-ups near the age of 90. While Fred doesn't climb I suspect he is far "stronger" than Beckey (for whom I have great admiration). As to which is "in better shape" that's your decision to make.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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I'll take any advice you guys got, but I know my grandfather was one tough farmer that that did tough physical labor well into to his eighties and it was what kept him young. Climbing is my farming.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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Use it or lose it.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 30, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
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the increasing challenge with age is the narrowing gap of avoiding injury while maintaining a level of fitness allowing you to still play
and realizing the level of challenge is much less important than the level of having fun
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 30, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
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Tom said it perfectly. I'm still a youngster at 62, but I think I still have as much fun climbing as I did when I was 22 -- even if my best climbing ability is a rather long way on the other side of the hill.
John
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
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I didn't start climbing till I was 42. At 51 now, I plan on doing it till I can't.
Given my tenacity and plain meanness that may be quite a few more years.
Plaid
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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They are too fat and drunk to climb anymore.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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Oy vay.
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
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Manufacturing routes with chisels and pins, it seems. I hope not all.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
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real photo. in 30 years I'll be shootin up HGH too!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
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Jgill and Tom ^^^^ have already summarized my point of view.
That said, I still have the desire to climb, which is another can of worms.
Being able to accept one's limitations is very difficult. I still have some fun, though.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 30, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
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Given my tenacity and plain meanness that may be quite a few more years.
I don't know about the "meanness" part, but a big YUP for the tenacity! You've always been very kind to me.
Tom and Rodger and John have stated it perfectly. Even though I haven't sustained huge debilitating injuries doing the activities I love (knock on wood) there is also the cumulative effect of smaller aches and pains that need more TLC than in the past that create more "therapeutic" and rest days. Conditioning, balance and maintaining stamina get more attention than ever before.
Susan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 30, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
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hey there say, all... not a climber, but i fit in with the physical stuff here, as to the greatoutdoors...
i like what donini said--it IS true, from what i've experienced and seen, for others in our age groups, and even as to younger folks:
As energy levels wane with aging, a concerted effort has to be made to get off of the couch. Trust me, once you do that the rest is comparatively easy.
and what jgill said:
something like this:
"watch out for balance"
am not sure if he meant balance in doing these things, or
'balance' itself... both are important...
but:
folks may be aware of the body aging but--they FORGET that the eyes and ears age, as well... you balance WILL be affected and you best be aware of it--it can add far more danger to things than one would suspect,
whether you are UP on a climb, or moving along a trail, or
simple walking in your HOUSE :O
and--the eyes, as well:
far sighted hits everyone, and through you off 'hear or there' when you reach for 'a crucial hold' etc...
so, once you have that 'initiative' and ARE climbing:
take those things into solid consideration and make a habit of
paying attention...
pay attention to joints that may 'lock up' or 'suddenly weaken' if
you HAVE them, take precautions (you all can come up with whatever it is that you need, in these cases)...
we do NOT want to lose our good buddies, not in old age or
anytime... :)
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 30, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
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Where have all the old climber's gone?
Depends. They've gone to buy more Depends at CostCo.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Jan 30, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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54 years old.
For me it was more a loss of nerve--and strength-I always was afraid of falling. Call it the curse of the old school leader.
Nowadays I ski a lot, canoe, Mt. Bike, and fly fish. I'm still getting after it, but not so much on the rocks.
hope to retire next year and it's possible that climbing will come back into my life. No real desire to push any danger zones. I'd be pretty happy to climb whatever candy ass route out there.
My strength will be in a long strong run of bull shtitting around the campfire!
So who knows, maybe I'll see you all out there--The first round will be on me.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Jan 30, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
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Where have all the old climbers gone?
Loooong time paaaassing.
Where have all the old climbers gone?
Loooong time agooo.
Where have all the old climbers gone?
They're over at Donini's puffin' on a bong.
Oh when will they ever learn?
Oh when will they...ever learn?
You have to be an old climber to recognize a Peter, Paul and Mary remix, eh?
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jan 30, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
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John, you express a lot of good ideas in your OP. Nothing there I would really disagree with.
Something I think you didn't go into has to do with many older people having a more acute awareness of how precious their time is. So then the question becomes "how do I spend the precious time I have left?"
Even when I was mad crazy to climb as much as I could, I would still make the choice to take vacations to the east coast to spend time with family and young nieces and nephews, rather than take climbing vacations.
It's a question of how you weigh the value of various things.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jan 30, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
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Tangled up in Blue?
All the people we used to know
They're an illusion to me now
Some are mathematicians
Some are carpenter's wives
Don't know how it all got started
I don't know what they're doing with their lives
Me, I'm still on the road
Headed for another joint ---a climb?,
We always did feel the same
or perhaps
Across the Great Divide Nancy Griffith
where the years went I cant say,
I just turned and the're gone away
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Jan 30, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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This is for Pete Seeger, who just went to the graveyard and Donini, who always loves one of my musical references and if I recall is slightly older than I.
Gone to graveyards, everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
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Probably to the bathroom. We all have to pee a lot.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jan 30, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
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Hey MooseD,
It sounds like you got a good script for getting the "GO" into yur life.
If a once active person is crushing beer cans on the couch is there some sub clinical depression going on with those types we have lost?
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 30, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
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Taking off from ZBrown's post above:
From Seeger and Joe Hickerson (last verse actually)
Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the flowers gone?
Young girls have picked them everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the young girls gone, long time passing?
Where have all the young girls gone, long time ago?
Where have all the young girls gone?
Gone for husbands everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the husbands gone, long time passing?
Where have all the husbands gone, long time ago?
Where have all the husbands gone?
Gone for soldiers everyone
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the soldiers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the soldiers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards, everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the graveyards gone, long time passing?
Where have all the graveyards gone, long time ago?
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Gone to flowers, everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the flowers gone?
Young girls have picked them everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Jan 30, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
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They've gone to Potrero. Where it is nice and warm, but not too hot. Where the beer is cheap [for pensioners], and comes in 1.2 litre bottles. Where the food is good, and the company is better. Where there is a good range of climbs for all abilities [and ages]. Where the cartels spare the gringos.
All 6 climbers in this pic are over 60. I am over 70.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:16am PT
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I was born to climb. I'll keep doing it until I am simply unable
SPOT ON!!
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vmcgal
Trad climber
New Paltz, NY
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:16am PT
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was going to post some pics of my 70th birthday on the rock - but i have to meet someone to go climbing.
e
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2014 - 11:33am PT
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Original Poster back again. You people are coming up with great insights. Please reread my original post as I have made many changes in it after hearing all your thoughts. I am really having problems with the following sentence in my post as it doesn't really express what I mean to say. Maybe you can help me: "This desire to "sit on the couch" may be more motivated by the old saying "been there, done that" rather than older climbers bodies giving up".
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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In a nutshell. At the age of 26 when I started climbing, getting up a piece of rock meant something to me. Now it does not. Climbing is a fun form of physical exercise but there are attendant risks. There are other forms of exercise out there.
For someone in the dessert phase of life, as I am, it is an easy choice.
1. Do something pointless that may cause me to have to leave the table early.
2. Use the time remaining to do something that needs to be done.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Jan 31, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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Marriage, Babies, Responsibility... It does put a damper on things and yet... It's full of incredible stuff too. My kid is a great joy. I can't imagine life without him.
AFS
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
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My kid is a great joy. I can't imagine life without him.
Some of my greatest joys have involved sharing my passions with my wife and daughters. My daughters, in particular, must have inherited my love of the mountains, and often now ask me to go climbing with them. (In fact, my older daughter wanted to have her bachelorette party in Camp 4). I hope I'll be able to introduce grandchildren to climbing as well.
While I no longer define myself by my climbing ability (and I consider that fact a sign of my mental health), I view climbing the way I view every other human activity, namely as an expression of our humanity.
In Christian circles, I've often come across what I like to call the "Utilitarian Heresy," meaning that unless what we do directly and overtly advances the Kingdom, it's merely "worldly," rather than "spiritual." I strongly disagree, both as a human being and as a Christian. Our climbing, music, art, sports and other "frivolous" pursuits have as much meaning as any other activity.
My only qualification to that view is that I don't want my life to collapse into mere self-indulgence. For me, spending all of my energies to maximize (rather than to optimize) my climbing ability would be self-indulgence at this stage of my life, where I'm dealing with my wife, my 102-year-old mother, my wife's 91-year-old mother and 92-year-old father, and two adult daughters, all of whom still need me.
If that means I don't hang out climbing the way I used to, that's OK with me. I made that choice several decades ago when I got married, and really made it before then when I turned my back on perfectly good climbing potential to get a full-time job and go to graduate and professional school.
I just wish I could have afforded all the gear and services money could buy back when I was young enough to spend it all climbing.
;-)
John
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 31, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
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Where have they gone? Well one I know just arrived in Coyhaique, Chile and is hesding South to the North Patagonia Ice Cap region tomorrow.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Jan 31, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Still around...but amazing too how many have died off in the last 50+ years. The deaths you remember might be climbing but many more gone from more natural causes. The longer you live, the longer the list.
When I think back I can rememebr a lot more getting into and then out of climbing long, long before they ever got old. And that was when I thought 30 was old.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Jan 31, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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We're all still here...
:)
Cheers
LS
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 31, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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Yeah, but what is that in climber years?
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yedi
Trad climber
Stanwood,wa
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
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Sometimes we drift into new arenas, sometimes we have kids and other responsibilities, sometimes we grow tired of the scene. Sometimes our ego doesn't need the constant challenge and conquest. Sometimes we get injured and the effort seems too much. Sometimes long time partners leave and the magic disappears. Sometimes the risk, reward doesn't balance. Sometimes we find other things more interesting. Sometimes just knowing we participated for decades is enough. Sometimes I dream of returning.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
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This is to the point.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1954729&msg=2332499#msg2332499
I don't want to give up and I won't because I have old climber friends now.
I wonder how
The 'REST' is in RIP.
We'll all move on soon enough to Tombstone Territory.
I intend to go at a leisurely pace at all times.
I will not succeed, I predict.
I just want to stick around for the Super Bowl, really.
THIS COULD GET MAUDLIN.
Don't let it.
I mean it, heartily, friends.
Cheers!
I hope we all get to hang around a little more and with each other a little more, as well. Sorry the visit's a bust, Tad. It's for the best. Thanks again.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
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aren't they all on ST talking sh#t? ;)
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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Old:
Veteran athlete: 50 - 69
Senior athlete: 70 and above
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:51pm PT
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Out for a stroll on Hollywood Blvd.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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To answer the original question, where they have gone, one needs to look at why they climb. For some, climbing is a just form of physical exercise, and it would not be surprising to see them drift from climbing to ..lawn bowling to ...watch the grass grow. For others, climbing is part of a way of life. They climb because they love the rock or the ice, the scenery, the wind and the weather. It is a part of their soul they will never abandon. When senility hits and their body cannot claim technical feats, they still climb 5.1 or hike, they still stroke the rocks with fondness, they still gaze at the avalanches and at the icicles on the ridges, they still long for another trip out there, where they are in true communion with nature and themselves. ... may be some of them become Buddhists.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think Guck and Yedi are closest to the truth. Life circumstances change and interests evolve. Moreover, remember that climbing, even at a modest level, requires relatively high physical fitness. You can't have debilitating injuries or infirmities. It is hard and often scary, takes a lot of commitment, takes a lot of time compared to other physical pursuits, and often involves a significant amount of traveling. And you do have to be actually alive, a generally pleasant state of being that does not last forever.
When you put all the demands together, what is truly amazing is not how few old climbers there are, but rather how many of us are still plugging away after 30, 40, 50, (and in my case, getting close to 60) years of it.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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I still see lots of guys and girls 40 and older out and about. For some reason they always seem to try to compare themselves to the younger crowd. Asking the same questions, "how old are?" "Have you done that route before?" I suppose that is one of the frailties of the human race. Competition. I would hope I do not start getting envious of the younger crowd when I become middle or late aged.
This all brings me to my point. I think a lot of old climbers think they are has beens when looking at the younger generations. Which is total BS. So rummage through your garage and find those tattered rock shoes and get out and do what used to keep you so alive!
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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Rgold. Do you think Donini is actually alive? His heirs might need a well made rubber lined and sealed, double locking, titanium coffin. A priest, stake, 9gallons of sulfuric acid and maybe a couple spares of the priests and stakes.
As for the rest of us I completely agree with you.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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More often than not I think older climbers are rare because of desire reduction rather than body deterioration.
No me baby. Multiple shoulder dislocations, failed shoulder surgery, back injuries, sciatica with a weak leg, blown meniscus in my knee, etc.
My desire is still there but my Apollo 13 spaceship has exploded.
If had known that I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself when I was younger.
My old climbing partners are still hitting it hard. One of my old partners from BITD recently summited Everest for the 7th time. If you have the right genetics, good health and have not suffered major injuries, then you can continue to play hard when you get old.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Case in point: pretty nice weather today for once, at least early on; temps near 45 and some sun, in short a good winter rock climbing day even for geezers like me.
But I happily opted for a walk with the wee wifey (who doesn't climb) instead. Good times...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Well, Clyde did die eventually and his Minaret is as fine a marker as one could possibly desire.
It was a pleasure, I'm sure, to have listened to what he had to tell back in the Visitors' Center in 1970 one time when he talked to the AAC gathered there. I forgot what he said, of course, but it must have been a good thing or two. He was very lively for a guy in his eighties, though, and he had eyes that crinkled deeply.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Maybe this quote can help answer where they have gone?
"Each purpose, each mission is meant to be fully lived to the point where it becomes empty, boring, and useless. Then it should be discarded. This is a sign of growth, but you may mistake it for a sign of failure." -- Deida
From the chapter, Be willing to Change Everything in Your Life
Those gone [from climbing]that are not dead are just on another mission ??
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Maybe you can help me: "This desire to "sit on the couch" may be more motivated by the old saying "been there, done that" rather than older climbers bodies giving up"
There are a number of reasons oldsters (>70) have retired from the game. One that hasn't been mentioned is that those who are now that age may have entered the sport a long time ago when there were far fewer climbers and consequently they represent a cohort from a very small and aging population. In the early 1950s there may have been only a few thousand climbers in the USA, scattered across the country with a few population clusters on either coast and in the Midwest. I knew of less than ten climbers in Georgia in the early 1950s. There may have been more.
The desire to sit on the couch and watch TV is powerful for those of us who have "been there and done that", especially with the wonders of high definition flat screens and wonderful special series on the premium channels. But there are a few of us who persist in either climbing or some similar physical activity - mine is bodyweight exercises - because we have been at it more or less continuously for half a century and still enjoy the challenges and getting pumped up in the process. When I found that shoulder arthritis made it harder for me to reach up I opted for my other lifelong activity. As many here have stated, I thought when in middle age I would climb forever, so I didn't know what to expect as I disengaged from climbing. But guess what? There were no regrets, and as a matter of fact I felt freed from a fifty year commitment.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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^^Great commentary John
Even people who don't regularly climb anymore are still interested in climbing. Why is that?
Do old tennis players sit around and reminisce about tennis on tennis internet forums?
What other activities besides climbing get into your blood and stay with you forever?
I will always consider myself a "climber" even when I'm so old and demented that I can't even remember what a rope is anymore. Climbing made me who I am.
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jstan
climber
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Do old tennis players sit around and reminisce about tennis on tennis internet forums?
Quite probably. Tennis as an activity gathers together a particular cohort of people. Quitting tennis does not mean you want to leave the cohort.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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That's a curious photo of Norman Clyde. As all "Old Climbers" will recognize, he is doing the Dulfersitz rappel incorrectly. His method is both unsafe and potentially fatal, since someone rappelling as depicted could either fall backwards or sideways out of the system, or saw their head off from the friction.
The lower rope on the left should be going over his right shoulder and across his back to provide friction, not around his neck! Since he is braking with his left hand, it appears that he was left-handed. In NA this method was called the 'body wrap'.
Class dismissed.
Hey Norm
Yer gunna die!
PS Old tennis players can now play Pickle Ball. Looks like a lot of fun. Might have to give it a try.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Quite probably What a bunch of f*#king losers
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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sometimes bored with it
and loving other activities
tracking and wilderness awareness, systems management, space exploration, AI, film making, skydiving, SCUBA, sailing, flying, motorcycles, ranching
still coming back to climbing as basic
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Rolfr
Social climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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I am a young 62, age is just a state of mind, as long as the fire burns and my body holds out I hope to continue climbing.
There are still a lot of places that I haven't been and things I haven't done. Every day is another oppportunity.
My climbing partners in Skaha are 58 to 70 and they pull down seriously hard. In JT I climb with a younger and older crowd but we still share that passion. The old climbers haven't gone anywhere, we are still there.
Just as many, if not more young people leave the sport. Us old guys and gals are lifers, we're still here until closing time or till they carry us out on a stretcher.
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I'm turning 60 this year, and love climbing as much as when I was 18, and am lucky not to be injured in a way that stops me (my eyes are not so good, can't hear my partner some times, I do get plenty of aches and pains, and I do have to tape cuz my skin seems thinner, and my first knuckles are huge and just don't fit in thin cracks- none of that stops me from having fun..tons of good climbs to do.
My main problem is time (maybe when I retire) The main thing for myself and my climbing friends my age are the responsibilities to take care of family, employees, deadlines, all that stuff. As much as I love climbing, these other things are the main dish, and climbing is the desert. I think I am able to get in about 10-15 days per year if lucky- that often get bumped by family crisis or deadlines. And my work requires tons of time at computers- wish I could cut that by 50%.
Lucky for gyms (1-2 days a week) I can stay in good enough shape to have great adventures when the occasional free day pops up. I don't think I'm much more afraid than when I was 18, but I think that is because of the gym training. The gear is so much better, makes it possible to stay in the game. If i could get myself to do hang boards, I think I could climb a little better.
I have posters of Fred Beckey and other old climbers on the wall. If I can do what Fred has done, I have 30 more years of climbing.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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This all is a reiteration of an extended conversation that Chouinard, RR et all were having by the end of the Sixties and the early Seventies. I mean the dudes were actually talking about it and were a bit amazed by how their lives were developing beyond their mono-obsession with the rock.
They had found all these other interests (e.g.. surfing, earlier extreme kayaking, skiing already having been very well known to many of them, but not in its coming extreme forms of today) and let's be frank, they had gotten out of climbing what they needed by that time. Now the point was to implement these lessons, don't you think? Weren't we charged with that exact responsibility?
After what you might have learned on the FA of the Muir Wall for example, don't you think the point would then be to take this insight and then get in gear in other parts of the world and our lives? It is part of the climbing conjecture of that time that we were receiving or gifted 'information' and should then go and bring the tablets down from the mountain or go even further beyond that and some day with flowered baskets, hand off that further knowledge as well to all.
It is in the nature of life that the Nureyevs in humanity become in time directors and even wizened masters now charged with opinion and the third integral and derivatives of their art. It just is life's job.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Peter Hann,
Your model of what the retirees do in regards to their expertise may be too paternalistic to work as such for the rapid derivatives of the changes within climbing today and today's ways of seeking expertise. Certainly that/your model had its time. But, "Gone are the days when the ladies said, Please." From what I can gather the father-son authoritarian bond mostly lives now in religious communes. Kamp's table[pushed around long before his retirement] did not have the the legs to stand, universally -- to rigid. I'd say they had a limited/faulty view of what people want from that nebulous activity --climbing.
Today, expertise comes from google, you-tube and cell chat. The middle age people of today are not looking for tables. Nowdays, there is so much advise out there that one has to filter it with expertise. But stories from Jstan, Rgold, jgill and the likes are worth more than the time to read.
And of those that have left climbing only a few stick around and tell Stories.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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DMT,
yes I agree with you. .. laughed over love butter
Weren't we charged with that exact responsibility?
It would be a hell of burden to have to preach a doctrine you did believe in and only a fool would believe his ideas accepted so universally.
It stinks of Religious connotations.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I'm with the the two Dingus's on this one, as I've always been a bit suspicious of climbing as a vehicle for life lessons. It seems almost inevitable that it will be used that way, because so much of the metaphorical language of achievement is bound up with climbing analogies.
If there is any truth to the analogies at all, it is only because climbing is so much simpler then the rest of life, which means that there are still substantial hurdles in transferring anything learned on the walls to other aspects of existence. Moreover, it is my observation (and so worth whatever you think it is worth) that those who profess to have learned the biggest life lessons from climbing are ones who have only experienced it peripherally, for example in programs whose purpose is to show folks that their capabilities exceed their mental horizons.
Those of us who have been around the block and who haven't had the good sense to leave the field can, in a small way, perhaps give back a little to the miniature world of climbing itself, although whether there is anyone out there who wants to listen is a very real question. There are no cultural imperatives for age either carrying wisdom or deserving respect, which is a good thing when it comes to the interchange of ideas, but which means the elders will have to steel themselves for the inevitable age-based deprecation that will sometimes accompany their contributions.
In any case, beyond our own stage, I don't think climbers have much to offer the world, if all they have is their climbing experiences and the lessons learned from them to recount.
Don't get me wrong, I think climbing is a fundamental ingrained human activity, unlike hitting little balls with clubs and racquets or trying to throw bigger balls through hoops. Those of us who continue to do it are responding to a nearly protoplasmic imperative that must, at some level, resonate with the entire human race. But lets leave it at that and not strive for climbing as any kind of foundation for the rest of life.
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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The progression and history of rockclimbing in the sixties and through the mid eighties will forever define what climbing is.
As the same period 200 years before defined this country and free rights for each individual, constitutional writing and so on. The foundations have been laid and will exist forever to be built upon by all future generations of climbers. Those who made this history are a part of it forever.
Defining what climbing is may get messy at times and need be redefined, but to look back for those answers to that crucible, to define "This is truly climbing" will be (whether you like it or not) tomorrow's Gospel, Bill of Rights, Gettysburg Address...
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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They all went to the Super Bowl! Haha!
That's a curious photo of Norman Clyde. As all "Old Climbers" will recognize, he is doing the Dulfersitz rappel incorrectly.
I did think that photo looked a little strange.
Anyway, before I ever started climbing when I was 15, I was already into fishing of all kinds, archery, and backpacking. Climbing did become my 'significant other' for awhile, but the desire to learn and have fun with new things was always there, and still is. Even seeing how quickly a 'new thing' can be learned is fun. With all of my varied experiences from wind-surfing to fire-walking I should be ready when I finally pick up that metal detector! Currently, I'm going on 62 and just starting to get back to normal from a nasty little ankle break while climbing in the Alabama Hills in October.
Be here now! Be There! Do Something! Anything!
I gotta say though, that I was a pretty lost lad when I was a young teenager. Getting into climbing and meeting the fine people that hung out at Stoney Point saved my ass. My climbing Friends are still my best friends! I did end up with a few Aliens and Camelots though!
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jstan
climber
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Against my principles to engage in climbing content....but
With left shoulder sloping down and the rope not trapped by the arm and upper hand holding the rope, any efforts flip the rope below to clear a jam can cause complete separation from the rappel.
There are other ways to body wrap but they all have dangers. The dulfer seems, however, to give the greatest pain with the least security of them all. Would be interesting to see a psychological evaluation of its originator.
Edit:
I tried a little research on Hans Dulfer.
Dülfer started studying medicine from 1911 in Munich, and then changed to law and later to philosophy.
No more need be said.
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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I always knew there had to be a reason.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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this discussion makes me feel guilty to be turning 71 with all my parts in good working order with a valid flight medical and still having fun climbing and commercial diving
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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As all "Old Climbers" will recognize, he is doing the Dulfersitz rappel incorrectly.
period photos (i.e., early 20th c) show all manner of body wrapping referred to as "Duelfer" method. I don't believe much standardization happened until the military standardized climbing training for efficiency.
I feel pretty confident that Duelfer wasn't the first to bodywrap, just one of the highest-profile and most successful. Rappeling was still a novelty-- the first gen of rope descending, in the Tirol, simply wnt hand-over-hand. Folks would've know leg-wrap from rope climbing in the gym.
WIthout knowing more about the context, I don't see a serious problem with Norman's choice there-- I'd guess that he started with it behind the back and then brought it in over the left shoulder to tighten it down or to get the strands more cleanly out in front of him.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Tom you need not feel guilty, but sure hope you didn't jinx your good health! ; )))
Susan
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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btw, i've posted about this before, but it should be mentioned again in this thread-- there are STACKS of fit, active senior climbers all over Europe.
It is especially obvious shoulder season in the Alps-- June, early July-- I see entire gangs of tanned, jacked seventy-somethings in spandex cranking bicycles up Sellajoch. And I see stacks of old guys in their 80s sportivas running laps on classics.
In Fontainebleau, I met a slew of sixty-eighty something folks climbing.
I think it partly reflects how much more popular climbing has been in Europe-- as John pointed out above, climbing was a super weird activity in the US in the fifties, so there just weren't that many folks in the cohort to begin with. But it was nearly a mass sport in Europe, and you can see that in the climbing population now.
But I also think there is a strong cultural difference. In the US, for many generations, "sports" were for kids: something one did in high school or possibly in college. With the exception of hunting and fishing, there were virtually no sports visible to me, when I was kid, that had senior athletes. In Europe, on the other hand, when I'm rummaging through early 20th century documents and pix, it's easier to find lifelong athletic participation.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Almost 66, still doing this climbing, hiking, skiing, alpine rock thing. It's all for me, for my happiness, for my well being, to see the beauty of the mountains and to continue my love with outdoors.
How often? All the time.
How hard? Not very, those days are gone, replaced by pleasures of movement, the wonderment of being with the activity I started at 14.
Will continue until the body says stop.
Cannot imagine better way to live.
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 8:6
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Still doing walls and long ice routes Donini is "Old and Bold", cheers! :)
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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In any case, beyond our own stage, I don't think climbers have much to offer the world, if all they have is their climbing experiences and the lessons learned from them to recount (rgold)
I agree with this, Rich. However, there are those who do the paid lecture circuits and conduct commercial outdoor clinics for both the under-privileged and over-privileged who might disagree.
Go Broncos!
Edit: Bummer
;>)
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jstan
climber
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PT and I were on a hike north of YNP when we encountered one of the caretakers for a group of youngsters in a fixed camp along side the PCT. It was unusual in that they had equipment such as chain saws. There were no nearby forest fires. He was really insistent that we stop and say hello. Correctly or incorrectly I came to the idea that this was a group of youngsters in legal trouble on a sponsored exposure to an experience unlike that to which they were used. The natural environment was a central actor as were passersby.
Possibly rock climbers undergo a similar socialization during their time on the rocks. There may be more going on in climbing than we at first suspect. Heroics are probably not a prime factor.
One has to wonder whether the ST experience works in concert or in opposition to what climbing did for us.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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The natural outdoor experience is very formative. Without even trying when I was younger, I influenced many. It just goes around like that. We all know how it works. The development of outdoor recreation has had much to do with the preservation of and saving the sanity of our country, starting with let's just say John Muir. Where did he go anyway?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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As much as I admire and feel affection for you John, reverence as well surely, your statement lacks believability. "Climbing is just a sport", to paraphrase you.
The climbing conjecture contains way more than "sportivity" for many and for many who have preceded you and I since the beginning of the 19th century. Your view is not sufficient upon what the hell we are doing. It's true that many simply climb as a sport. And at our older ages, we of course council care and prudence rather than the romantic or Romantic flights that much of our group's best achievements entail. But we ought to be trying to recall why the hell we actually did risk and how so many paid dearly for this crusade.
Wolfgang Gullich always insisted that climbing was just a sport and not anything bigger such as an overwhelming life passion or even metaphysical myth making pursuit towards which everything could be in third place. Though he died driving and tired, unroping Separate Reality (Yos) is not sport no matter what you say. It is much more and you surely know this as well, having taken such risk yourself many times.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Peter Hann,
You ask:
But we ought to be trying to recall what the hell we actually did risk and how so many paid dearly for this crusade.
As an aside from what John G may post for your query to him, here is some insight from a study/test on risk. About 10 years ago Psychology Today offered a test: Are You a Risk Taker? I took the test and failed to make risk taker status. I then proceeded to deconstruct its parts to see what I would have to change in their queries of my actions to be judged a risk taker by them.
Summarized:
1. Those that attempt a risk situation with little consideration get risk taker status.
2. Those that take on the risk situations for social gain get risk taker status,
3. Those that both studied how to resolve an apparent risk situation [Is there a way to do it safely or considerably reduce the risk] and were not attempting the risk for any social gain were denied the risk taker status.
Certainly, I have experienced a sadness to see or hear of many sorts of risk taker types losing their lives. When this happens I wonder what's the motivation? But in this society risk taking is allowed and glorified [sometimes].
In my climbing choices I never once let the Boldness need/theme be the reason for a course of my action. I see such needs as Boy Psychology. But at times I have let my excitement dominate my actions only to end up making what I call a poor choice. Now I also have made some dumb ass assessments of what was above as far as protection & difficulty and ended up adding more risk. Now these are some of my heuristics used for risk assessment during climbing but for me the world is too Heraclitus like for those heuristics to be of much value for making good choices for actions of life in general.
Or perhaps my risks don't qualify as I am neither John Gill doing the Thimble or Wolfgang doing SeeApartReality? It is a couple numbers below his top level of climbing.
And to add to this, I will add that my risk assessment heuristic is something like this:
What can I do to make this climb safe enough that there is some 99.9% likelyhood that I will be around for another one?
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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I think that perhaps the original question is phrased incorrectly. If someone has reached the status/age of "old climber", then clearly they have not gone anywhere. They are still climbing! The correct question should be "Where did all the middle aged [or younger] climbers go?"
There are many obvious answers to this. Careers, family, too many french fries, loss of nerve, aversion to physical discomfort etc, etc. Fill in the blanks.
Do we have a definition of an "old climber"? I would suggest 65, the age for old age pensioners, and the age at which you should get a discount at the local climbing gym. It has been great to hear from all the "youngsters" who have posted on this thread. Hang in there y'all.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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"climbing is just a sport" . . .
I may have said this once or twice (to try to distinguish it from some sort of outdoor religion), but I can't find it on this thread, Peter. Are you referring to JohnS? Climbing is a great physical activity and it certainly can stir the spirits, otherwise I would not have spent the last twenty years of my climbing career in longer easier solos, devoid of substantial difficulty. It was a moving meditation for me.
On the other hand I prefer not to contemplate things done in the past and focus on what I can do in the immediate future. I don't think I would use the word "crusade" in the context of climbing, though others might.
Perhaps you are talking about another John.
;>\
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jstan
climber
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climbing is just a sport" .
Back in the 60's I was ahead of the power curve on this. I am as sure as I can be I never referred to climbing as a sport. I always referred to it as a "pursuit". The word "sport" carries with it all manner of baggage irrelevant to climbing. Another John must be involved.
As claimed, I did have a number of "crusades".
1. No bolts - bolts put us on a slippery slope that has no terminus.
2. Climb ratings - Using numbers that can be only marginally justified, submerges the kinesthetic rewards of the pursuit.
3. New routes - Wouldn't El Cap be exciting once more if there were only a half dozen lines drawn on it?
4. Guides - Where has exploration gone when every cliff is papered over with two or three competing guides?
5. Pitons - I was a couple years late to that crusade. I think that was Royal's. I did all that I could on the East coast however.
6. Communication - If we were going to be ready for all the challenges, we had to be in communication. We did not have something like ST which now solves all manner of intractable problems on a daily basis.
7. Access - Climbers had to be anxious to work with land managers and government. Access is a partnership.
8. Trails - Trails help us avoid destroying bushes and even trees. For example climbers put in the rip rap at Carderock in cooperation with the NPS in the early 70's. Without this, water would now be up to the base of the rock. (Spare us the declaration that this area is "choss". Come live in DC and see how quickly the area becomes "good".)
9. There must have been others.
I was not reluctant to express my opinion and the reasons for those opinions. Always justifying one's opinions is a hard power curve to stay ahead of. It is necessary however. Given reasons the reader has a basis for accepting or rejecting the opinion.
Wolfgang Gullich always insisted that climbing was just a sport and not anything bigger such as an overwhelming life passion or even metaphysical myth making pursuit towards which everything could be in third place.
If one just accepts that Wolfgang was not speaking american when he said "sport" here, he meant activity or pursuit. It was clearly an activity very important to him, but he did not expect it to produce flashes of lightning and the rebirth of his "soul". (Pardon my use here of a roundy undefined word.)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I'm trying to figure out where that quote came from, too. I don't think I said it, and since John G. and John S. didn't, who did?
John
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Has senility taken over with you dudes?
We used to say ahead of the learning curve and it is very meaningful
Many forms exist: ahead of, behind the ...power curve more vague It was used both ways in aviation.
Kind of hard to say anyone was first to use such forms or even worry about that kind of slang...
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jstan
climber
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D/M:
Pardon the slang but it seems not to have kept you from understanding me.
With more words I might have said "I was advancing as being important concerns that now, forty years later. are being discussed more than they were at the time."
Five words are better than twenty-two as long as meaning is preserved.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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We seem to have transitioned from questioning where all the old climbers have gone to a discussion (among the old climbers!) about where climbing has gone.
Or indeed what it ever was, not to mention where it went.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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jstan,
I have no problem with slang, but I ask why the concern over who was first to use the term as all three forms have been around for some time? You know John G, John S, or John E or JFK or who dunit? Bob D'Antonio uses some expression of being ahead of the curve also.
Can't you guys remember you were not the inventor of these terms? I'll bet none of you guys were ahead the curve measuring who first used these terms the most.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Rgold,
yes, agreed we are digressing. For a short summary:
During the youth & mid age of what we now refer to as "old climbers" the total number of climbers was quite small compared to nowdays. Out of this small number of pioneers, some have died, some have moved on to other missions, some are still fit but figure that climbing carries a higher risk than other physical activities, a few are still climbing and maybe a lesser few are telling stories of climbing.
Does this answer the where have they gone?? I will not tackle the "all" part of this. i.e. I do not know all the Where have Places. For sure some are at Hospice.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Things have gotten a little weird here . . .
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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jstan,
some more thoughts:
to say you were ahead of the power curve is vague in that it's meaning is ambiguous. The saying could mean:
1. you were fighting against change way earlier or
2. you had joined the changing side way early.
To clarity this ambiguity you would have to state which side you were on at the onset.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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jgill,
weird ,
maybe, but when we think of what the thread topic poster ask we see Where but I suspect he also wanted to know some form of What are they ... doing?
If we accept this additional What are they doing implied part of the post, we can see that jstan is/was telling us he was staying ahead of the power curve with his ideas. This is what he is doing and yes perhaps,"Weird."
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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OK, DM, maybe he is asking that "what" question. (and my "weird" did not apply to jstan - for whom I have enormous respect - at all. Just where this thread is wandering)
What and What
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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DMT said...
I was born to climb. I'll keep doing it until I am simply unable. All these injuries are surely going to ground me some day... I intend to put that day off for another 40-years or so!
Me to.... Fritz W, Fred Beckey and Jim Donini.... my role models.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Correct,
jstan, by one of the aspects of what we have already agreed upon as to what old climbers do is that jstan[old climber?] is telling a climbing story. He is telling a story of his climbing beliefs on this thread--Where have all the old climbers gone? and/or What are they doing?? I am doing....
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Guyman,
some physical limitations may make the dynamics of climbing barely possible. Suppose you cannot do a 2 arm pullup and your legs are getting too weak for either of them to push yourself up alone while on a single leg having a good action angle. That is, you are this weak because your muscles will not get any stronger; they do not respond to weight training.
This state of weakness would also increase your chances of just falling over and breaking bones.
In this state can we do any climbing even when we are top-roping?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dingus... did you see that last video of Beckey????
he wasn't doing that great, to say the least, but he was out in the sun having fun.
That is the best that I can hope for.
I know many who have gone quietly "over the hill"....
to each his own.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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guyman,
did not see the Beckey video but he certainly did not let the water hold 'im down during his Once in a Lifetime.
For us he is now an actor in a movie preview of What is in Store for Us.
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AndyMan
Sport climber
CA
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I'm 65, still climbing and still improving. 5.12b Serious osteoarthritis has slowed me down though.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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rgold,
...which means that there are still substantial hurdles in transferring anything learned on the walls to other aspects of existence.
Today while at our workout I mentioned your ideas posted on this thread, a part of which is displayed above to Bob Scarpelli. He has not read the book by M. Csikszentmihalyi Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience but he had gained some of the "coping" insights from training for climbs that are mentioned in this book as how to deal with learning new and difficult tasks. Csikszentmihalyi studies depression and found that those who are best at avoiding it know the flow routine between boredom and anxiety. The author cites climbing and music playing as having very good routines for staying in flow or optimal experience because you can always find a more difficult piece to play on.
The way I came across his book on Flow was rather unique. About 1998 I was remodeling the house of two research psychologists that studied depression. By and by they ask me of my hobbies. Upon hearing of the rock climbing hobbie we took a break for questioning my heuristics for approaching problems. They said that amazing to them I was using the flow model and ask me if had read the Flow book which I hadn't. When I ask for more details as to how to get the book they said I needn't bother getting it because I knew his routines already. I got the book anyway and confirmed that I already did know most of what Csikszentmihalyi claimed was relevant to optimal flow.
For sure, people who play music with improvement in mind know the Flow routine. So climbing is not unique in lending those stiff demands to get a person drifting in on experiencing optimal flow. But I would say the Flow Routine is a very good lesson in dealing with life's general problems that I feel I got from getting climbing projects as my goals. As for hurtles in tranferring...?? Maybe so there are a lot depressed people that do not live this routine,.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Csikszentmihalyi
if you know how to spell this in one go
certain it is you are in the flow
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jstan
climber
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A question arose as to what I might have said BITD. I hoped I could answer the question.
D/M:
Back around 1970 all the eastern data I saw indicated rapid growth in population and we were
faced with the problem of keeping our areas enjoyable and looking natural. My immediate
reaction was to look and see what we would have to change to deal with that population. I
advocated our climbers consider as possibilities the ones I listed. I may once have noted aid
climbing with pitons posed the greatest difficulty but I avoided comments as to how people
should be forced to climb. Things like that are not helpful. We all are free and the most one can
do is propose possibilities, show what makes them worth considering, and leave decisions to
each climber.
I apologize for my use of vernacular. I needed to think longer on how to say it in a few words,
but was running out of time. The following is less than half of what I found this afternoon, in
this case well away from the Park. My camera crapped out.
Today, on a Monday, visitors to the National Park formed an unbroken stream from all parts of
the world. I have cleared all of the trash from the lands abutting the first mile of the road the
visitors must take. But there are 15 more miles to go. Resources adequate to support an
economy, are for the first time, coming into JT. People here are geared up to change the way we
treat the desert. A month ago one clean-up on Copper Mountain Mesa took out 160 tons.
It has to be done.
Exciting as all get out.
This is what I am doing now.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dingus, interesting that you mentioned Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He was a Ph.D. student in psychology at Chicago when or just before I was an undergraduate there. I never met him personally but climbed with several people who did. Perhaps John Gill knew him.
I don't think he stuck around long in the climbing world; we had a very active climbing club going and he never showed up. One of those examples of folks who didn't become an old climber.
Here's a shot of him climbing at Devil's Lake:
and another of him in the Tetons with Frank Knight (RIP http://www.math.uiuc.edu/People/knight_memoriam.html); on the left
As for the claim that perhaps there is something after all in climbing of broad utility beyond the world of climbing, maybe so---I'm certainly not a psychologist and I'm not inextricably bound to the opinion I expressed earlier. People take their experiences and make all kinds of things out of them, some functional and others not so much.
Edit: John was posting while I was typing. What a man!
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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jstan, the man, with a plan. if I was in your neighborhood, i'd lend a truck and some flabby muscles. i'm sure i would be rewarded with good company.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Perhaps John Gill knew him (rgold)
I think I may have known Mihaly at the U of Chicago, but I'll have to check with Mike Fain, who headed up the loosely organized U of Chicago Mountaineering Club in the late 1950s. Several of us would drive up to Devils Lake and he may have been one of us. Rich Shiffrin was another well-known psychologist I climbed with a bit many years later.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jstan,
thanks for an apology but none was really ever necessary between you & me. Whether you or others get the words out just right is less crucial to me than it use to be because I now ask myself what are they getting at? I am still rereading some of Pete Hann's views asking What is he getting at here?
pS Your post is about where climbers have gone and what they are doing. I can't say I hope to be joining the ranks but I will accept the inevitable and try to stay in motion, much like you R doing.
GR8 job cleaning up that portion of the desert. Some lifestyles are quite unsuitable to desert fauna and soil preservation. Thanks for using your off climbing time to do the cleanup and I suspect that job fulfills one's motion needs.
Rgold,
hearing your story of knowing him and seeing that photo does close that circle of curiosity I had as to how Csikszentmihalyi came about knowing of climbing. Mystery solved.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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John, I got to Chicago in 1961. Steve Derenzo, a physics undergraduate and I got the UCMC moving again, with an average of over a 100 members for the time we were there organizing things. We had a number of trips out West and published a few issues of a newsletter, Flail and Scrabble.
Here's a shot of Mike Fain (in the middle) from those days, on their way to climb the CMC route on Moran. (Without canoe. They earned their summits the old-fashioned way, by hiking in to 'em, in this case around Leigh Lake.) Peter Gardiner on the right, "BK" on the left.
These guys were old climber candidates, now I think in their mid-seventies (Mike is 77) and on to other activities.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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^^^^ Boy, that brings back some memories.
Michael has been very successful as a NYT best-selling author with his wife, Judy. They have lived in Aspen and Chicago for many years.
Judith Michael
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Since I was sorting through old photos anyway, I thought I'd make a contribution to where the old climbers came from (rather than went).
So here, in a flash, is the passage of a bit more than half a century:
From...
to...
Clearly illustrated is one reason some old guys are still at it: we got so much fancy gear now we're too weighed down to get into any trouble.
Also clearly illustrated (even though I am slouching too) is the loss of more than two inches of height. No wonder I can't reach some of those holds any more...
And before someone gives me grief, yes, I did tighten up the back-up barrel knot on my double-bowline-already-backed-up-with-a-Yosemite-finish before I embarked on my lead, so there...
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WBraun
climber
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Old climbers move on to become young again.
If not they must come back and repeat all their previous mistakes ........
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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This is more revealing, Rich. Good shape old guy!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Oldest trick in the world. I got myself one of those heavy ponytails. They make it easy.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Busted!
But no, the ponytail is a simple exercise in conservation of hair. Even as it disappears from the top, the increase in ponytail length keeps the net hair volume constant.
And I've only fed it into my rappel device once.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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It's the headband then.....or helium socks....
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The headband is to keep my brain from falling out when my head tilts back on overhangs.
As for the helium socks, why don't you try keeping your feet down when they're trying to float to the ceiling?
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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^^^^^^^^^. Wonderful Stuff....thanks,
Susan
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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There's something to that. Climbers do have a hard time keeping their feet on the ground. It's the socks!
Anyway you guys, thanks for the inspiration! I'm just getting back to doing chin-ups again after a few years off babying a shoulder separation. I mean, I've kept climbing but the chin-ups were just a bit much.
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GirlInGreen
Trad climber
Central California
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Some of us have our climbing partners move on and then have a hard (read impossible) time finding an age/ability appropriate partner to take their place...
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Bill St. Jean
Trad climber
Bishop, California
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They have Arthritis!
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groveingham
Trad climber
minneapolis
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Well, one of them is in Minnesota, hanging in there at 73. I climbed back in the 70s and early 80s--Devils Lake, Suicide, Yosemite, Cirque of the Towers, Colorado. My favorite climb was Snake Dike. Did it twice, leading pitches 1 and 3 the second time. Gave up climbing when our first child was a little guy and I found myself in a high and airy place thinking I had too much responsibility to be doing what I was doing. But retired, and son and daughter well launched, at 70 I did some guided climbing at JT. It was just too good. I have been back to JT twice and I have summited Devils Tower a couple of times, via a 5.8+ route last summer. In fact, it may give you hope to know I am climbing harder than 40 years ago--up to 5.11 indoors and 5.9/5.10 outdoors. Not quite post mortem climbing but not bad. And it is as satisfying as ever, if not more so, because facing the inevitable I am more aware of how precious it all is. What others are saying here is true, however. Conditioning requires relentless effort, and the fingers are taking a beating. I am afraid I have stirred up osteoarthritis left over from the old days. I am trying krill oil, vitamin K2, and rest. If they do not help, I may have some shoes for sale.
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Gunks
Trad climber
NY
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Where have all the old climbers gone? Gone climbing, of course. I (almost 65) am meeting up with VMCgal (70) for a six-week climbing trip to Cochise, Owens and Red Rock.
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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I once had a friend named Zeke who was 15 to 20 years older than me. He was a teacher, and had summers off, so we planned to do a long climb on the Moon Goddess Arete in the Sierras. However, he kept putting off the trip, until I finally confronted him and asked if he was serious about doing it, if not, he should just tell me.
His response was killer.
He said "Jorge, you still see all those climbs you haven't done, and still long to do them. I see all those same climbs I haven't done, and wish I had already done them!"
I'm 58 and have given up quitting climbing, it never sticks anyway.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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groveingham;
You refer to "post mortem" climbing. Climbing zombies? or some other form of supernatural phenom? At least they would have little to fear from a fatal fall, or serious injury. Did you perhaps mean "post modern"? :)
[Some might consider Bachar, Croft, Honnold etc to be supernatural phenoms.]
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Yes yes, where have you all gone?!
Shall we go climbing?
;)
Cheers
LS
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Like many here on ST my forays with climbing began as a result of a love for the outdoors, particularly the mountains having first experienced them camping with family as a fisherman then with my buddies as a backpacker. Climbing resonated with me instantly when I was first introduced to it by joining a junior high school friend out at Stoney Point in the mid 60’s.
I do believe that most of the “lifers” have at their core a love of nature which keeps them at it as the mountains call and they are able to get up and outside. I’ve never separated other mountain pursuits such as skiing and backpacking as anything different, I think of it all as mountaineering. Moving over mountainous terrain whether it be rock, ice, snow or dirt skillfully is all part of the game.
I’d also say there are more old climbers out there these days than ever before in fact doing some impressive feats in my opinion. Back in the 60’s the only “old guy” I remember was John Mendenhal hammering out his malleable pitons at Lunch Rock there at Tahquitz. Certainly some of the notable figures of American climbing in that Golden Age where there too. Naturally they seemed old to me as a teenager but were really only in their 20’s and 30’s.
Another observation without over generalizing is that many of the boldest climbers of the day didn’t stick with it. I’ve often thought that their passion had more to do with the competition associated with the game then a love of a spirit we sense in the mountains. Once their bodies and drive began to wane and they could no longer compete at a high level as it does with age they dropped out.
Like many of you climbing has been a defining aspect of my life. I hope to continue moving over stone for the rest of my days. I would suggest as some have here on ST the best way to stay in shape is to never ever let yourself get out of shape. Let us not forget to thank the mountain gods as they call us to their flanks for ibuprofen....long may you climb!!!!!
Berg Heil,
Charlie D.
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Chris Wegener
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Interesting discussion.
I mostly agree with RGold about climbing not offering any great emotional or intellectual insights. The only thing I have learned from all my years climbing are: "Go up or go down, but you have to do something."
Firstly climbing is a wealthy persons pursuit. If you live in a culture or economy where starvation is a real possibility then no one will spend time climbing. It requires a well developed economy where the additional labor of any given individual is not required.
Secondly, my impression is that climbing is like many sports an opportunity for young men to gather and socialize without having to admit that is what they are doing.
I say sport intentionally. Most people develop some passion in their life that they follow, even if it is just sitting on the sofa and drinking beer. Some of us are lucky and find a passion that leads us outdoors and to the rocks, but never for a minute imagine that that passion is better, or purer, or more deserving than any other passion. Golf, bowling, off-road motorcycling, running, cooking, flower arranging any activity that a human pursues and find satisfying is as good as any other.
My experience is that those climb for their entire live may feel that passion more strongly but often the reality is that they forgo other pursuits that are just as worthy. Children, marriage even life can be sacrificed for the continued pursuit of climbing.
This does not make it more noble or sublime, just different.
Regards,
Chris
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Jim Pettigrew
Social climber
Crowley Lake, CA
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There are several factors....mind and body. If you let yourself get out of shape as you age you're in trouble....it becomes much more difficult to regain conditioning. I know a lot of older climbers still with desire but who are troubled by joint issues. Let's face it, body parts wear out.
Then there are the myriad of climbers who just give into the temptation to sit on the patio, drink in hand, and wax poetic about the good old days.
As energy levels wane with aging, a concerted effort has to be made to get off of the couch. Trust me, once you do that the rest is comparatively easy.
I tend to agree with Jim above! But what's the point did you want a physiology report? Or, are you just wondering what happened to the guys and gals that seemed to have helped to create this wonderful sub-culture that many seem to wish to be included in? Most as I have discovered are just fine and living the life of where the cards fell. Some as all know have passed. Generally speaking, raising families, living, and good grief responsibly taking part in society! Married, raised my kids (both graduated college), riding my bike because my patience level requires instant gratification when I want to work out! Thinking of climbing again! Possible in near future. That's how it has gone for many I suppose.
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BBA
climber
OF
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After being in the military, one is forever a veteran. After putting up with heat, thirst, cold, bears, snakes, ants, dirt filled cracks, climbing partners and one's own stupidity, one is forever a climber. We just don't have a separate word for one who is no longer active.
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jstan
climber
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Many of the responses seem to imply respondents feel their no longer climbing every weekend has, somehow, let someone down. There has been a failure to repay a debt of honor. Two things seem to be revealed.
1. That when we climb, our entrusting our lives to our partner creates a relationship quite unlike any other.
2. That continuing to climb is required to honor that debt and our failure to comply is detracting from one of the seminal experiences of our lives.
Stay with me on this. Those of us who have since undertaken other priorities, still feel a powerful affection. Mind you, love is a relationship out of which both parties expect a return. Affection is given with no need of return. Affection is the higher. And that is what we feel.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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pettigrew " my patience level requires instant gratification"..... what patience !..heh heh heh
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JedHiker
Social climber
Long Beach, CA
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Regarding balance. I'm seventy and certainly feel the balance issue.
Initially I thought it had to do with the inner ear and balance mechanism within, but am thinking otherwise now that something else might be contributing to the balance issue. It appears that my muscles/tendons in my feet have loosened up like the rubber bushings in a cars steering arms. Once things start shifting around at the feet level, the body follows suit as I try to recover. Has anyone else observed this condition and if so, might there be some physical conditioning that will "tighten up" the body mechanism.
It's not my reaction time as that's still sharp as a tack.
Thanks in advance, Jed
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I really don't think it has anything to do with joint laxity. (Nice try.) Chances are you are experiencing the effects of age-related proprioception loss, a combination of neuronal deconditioning and cell loss in the inner ear.
I was shocked to find that I can no longer balance for more than a few seconds on one foot with my eyes closed. I'm still pretty good eyes open, but once I realized what was going on I started to work at it.
There are lots of balance exercises and gadgets (eg wobble boards) you can use. I find a fairly effective exercise is one footed reach and touch: You balance on one foot---say the right foot---and bend over (very partial one-legged deep knee bend) and touch a spot to the right of the right foot with your left hand (so you have to pivot your torso). Three set of ten reps on each foot, or whatever you can do at first.
Just standing on one foot for a long time is good---see if you can work up to five minutes---but also just do it whenever you can, eg when brushing your teeth. If you have a place to do it, stand on one foot and throw a basketball against a wall and catch it. If no wall, just throw something up in the air and catch it. The point is to be doing something else and balance at the same time, hopefully retraining the lost (or decreased) reactions to work without having to give them your full attention.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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There are lots of balance exercises and gadgets (eg wobble boards) you can use My trainer has added a lot of balance exercises to my workout. Initially I wondered "why" because it seemed I didn't really have problems with "balance" related sports...skiing, biking, ice skating etc. After doing months of balance related workouts I couldn't believe the difference I felt in strength, increased flexibility, just general sense of body awareness in space. Big advocate of balance related workouts as we age.
Susan
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Those of us who have since undertaken other priorities, still feel a powerful affection (jstan)
Very well said, John!
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Can I legitimately post here having been asked by a family member why I was taking up learning how to climb at my "age"?
Those of us who have been around the block and who haven't had the good sense to leave the field can, in a small way, perhaps give back a little to the miniature world of climbing itself, although whether there is anyone out there who wants to listen is a very real question. - rgold
Even with my very limited climbing experience, it seems to me that climbing is a mentoring activity, like so many others (e.g., learning how to safely be around the ocean). You can read book after book, but this pales in comparison to being engaged in an activity and having a mentor turn to you and explain why he just placed an extra this or that, here or there, and why it is good practice. You just can't get that from a book.
I'm a sponge. I'm all ears. ") There's at least one.
In any case, beyond our own stage, I don't think climbers have much to offer the world, if all they have is their climbing experiences and the lessons learned from them to recount. - rgold
Wrap the lessons in life experience (e.g., learning to wrap your brain around a fellow climber committing suicide, recognizing depression, overcoming perceived failure, assimilating changes in physical abilities as you grow older), and I believe that climbers have plenty to share beyond their own stage. As a newcomer to the campfire, I continue to be blown away on almost a daily basis by the lessons in humanity offered up to me by so many climbers...some of whom I've not even yet had the pleasure of meeting.
Don't get me wrong, I think climbing is a fundamental ingrained human activity, unlike hitting little balls with clubs... - rgold
Golf is every bit as kinesthetic and analytical and adrenaline-riddled as climbing, albeit on a different plane. Don't get me wrong, but I suspect we've been hitting objects with sticks for many a millennia. ;D
This thread is really wonderful...thank you.
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covelocos
Trad climber
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I was recently referred to as 'That old fry'... I resemble that!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Golf is every bit as kinesthetic and analytical and adrenaline-riddled as climbing...
Are you kidding?? Given: Golf is an acquired skill.
When I was a third grader we got a new school building and playground. The jungle gym--monkey bars were put in a few weeks later. Every boy and girl were on these new toys and no instruction was necessary. We all were climbing. I suppose had there been some golf clubs there, a few emotionally disturbed boys would have started beating on something. Not to mention our distant ancestors habitat was in tress which necessitates climbing wired into the brain. The killing-club was picked up far later, once they had moved to the ground and started eating meat.
About 20 years ago Climbing Mag reported on some University research studying Problem Solving in Athletic Types. The climbers beat all other groups in general problem solving. The lowest scoring group was the the hockey players. Get the likeness both golf and hockey: a stick, a ball and a final location.
The energy dispersed in a 3 sec windup and slam does not equal the anaerobic energy output of a 2:57 min/sec overhanging 100' climb. We don't use the equivalent of golf carts namely elevators to arrive at our destinations.
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Abissi
Trad climber
MI
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I have been climbing for 46 years so far. I no longer can comb at the level I did in my early 30's but still have ambitions. My plans now are for the Eiger Northface in 2015, Ama Dablam is still on my tick list. I started climbing a the age of 10 years old and have no intentions on stopping.... ever...
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cornel
Big Wall climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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65 in a couple of mos. been a climber for 40 yrs. it has been incredible to say the least.. for me Attitude dictates altitude. There is always a way you to continue doing what you really love. You just have to figure it out. Make the nessary adjustments as the body changes, dietary(lots of herbal and various supplements that can help) keep your training regimen strong - no excuses, stay close to where you need to be...period.. YOGA really helps me too. Oh yes Remain with dissatisfaction..in every facet of your life...Keep your dreams alive...set those goals and make em happen...I will quit climbing, skiing, mountain biking when I am Dead... not one day before...Get out and get it on!!!
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cornel
Big Wall climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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In regards to the blessed aspects of climbing...they are there...they are always there...it is amazing what can be seen from time to time..one time I was stuck 2 pitches from the top on the Salathe. It was The first wk of April and a storm came in plastering the last couple of pitches with 3 to 4 inches of verglas.. No ice gear, not even a hammer or a pin so we asked for a little help.. Thinking YOSAR would send a Hurry Up team around the backside to just drop a couple ropes down so we could jug off..They decided instead to call in a chopper to pluck us off. Now as the helicopter approached EL Cap meadow I suddenly saw Angels surrounding the chopper, large, small, and intermediate size, maybe 10 or 12. I was astounded. My eyes were streaming tears. I could not speak. When the heli lifted off I lost the vision and became focused on the skills of the pilot..winds were to big but they swung a bag of pins and a hammer into us. We smashed our way off.. I never mentioned it to my partner..but that was for me a very blessed moment..
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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That's cool Cornel. You should get somebody to paint the scene of the chopper for you.
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cornel
Big Wall climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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That is a good idea...maybe I will.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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...I will quit climbing, skiing, mountain biking when I am Dead... not one day before...Get out and get it on!!!
I admire your spirit! Report back in ten years and let us know how it worked out.
;>)
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cornel
Big Wall climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Thanx JGill I do appreciate the many fascinating comments on this thread. Thanx to John for starting it..
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Ratzzz...
Social climber
Salt Lake City, Utah
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Personally, where I live, there are so many secluded spots that we can climb all we want without the crowds. Why wait 20 minutes or more to get on a climb when you can set up and climb whatever and whenever you want...Which means we're still out there you just can't find us. ;)
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Susan (my Santa Cruz surfing friend) :}
Falling is dangerous. Balance is trainable. I started a few years back (I'm 67 now). Try some of those exercises with your eyes closed. It's a real eye-opener.
Anyway, balance is also "un-trainable". I layed off for a while and it was another eye-opener how I had regressed.
Here's one I do, though it's not me. Watch out though it can make your wrists sore.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Regarding balance, I have recently tried to do some slack chain walking like I easily did years ago and find it is quite a bit harder than I remember. At 77, however, I've been going up and down talus fields and have gotten back that fluid balance I once had. Feels great. But the chain just wiggles too much!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Back in the 80s I came up with some exercises my mother could do. Now, I'm doing them! This is me in the late 80s. I still have those Levis but can't wear them.....size 31 waist! Haha! This rocking chair exercise actually took a little bit of coordination.
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cornel
Big Wall climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Yes exercises that focus on balance are very beneficial. Yoga really helps me and using the bongo board as well. Never really used the slack line much but I know that's a great one too. Got to protect our joints so proper execution of the asanas are super critical.. Varying my routine really helps me to stay hungry and looking forward to the next workout..
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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Supposedly another way to determine if you are old is a functional test. Without any rehearsal stand on one leg with eyes shut and see how long you can stay that way. Following is what the "experts" say is how to determine your age:
Zero seconds your dead
1 second 85+
2 seconds 80 years
3 seconds 75 years
4 seconds 70 years
5 seconds 65 years
7 seconds 60 years
8 seconds 55 years
9 seconds 50 years
12 seconds 45 years
16 seconds 40 years
22 seconds 30-35 years
28 seconds 25-30 years
I just did it and stood for 20 seconds so that means my functional age is 35 (my chronological age is 69) But then I would expect this cause I'm a Bad Ass SOB
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Don't fret, people. Just do the best you can at any age.
(the shorter you are the more the advantage in the balance trick)
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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Jgill: You exposed me. I am only 3' 2". John R (maybe us short people should be required to lift both feet off the floor)
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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Feb 10, 2014 - 11:33am PT
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I've just come back from a trip to Spain with several mates.
At 58 I am the youngest, the oldest is 67, or perhaps a bit older. On the sporty stuff a number of 7as were onsight flashed. In my opinion we underperform, but only because we would get bored redpointing!
The between the six of us there are five artificial hips, and one participant has no thumb on his right hand (degloved in an accident). All have had climbing associated major surgeries. Some multiples thereof.
I have recently met up with blokes in my age zone who are mor organised in their sport climbing and expect to climb in the 7b to 8a range.......
With due dilligence to training and injuries, it all remains possible. If someone had suggested that at age 58 I could still be climbing, and even aspiring to improve, I'd have said they were nuts!
Steve
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Feb 10, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
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My feet seem to keep getting longer with age. I have yet to hear somebody complain about a guy having an advantage because his feet are longer. Doesn't Honnold have big feet?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 10, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
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Blakey,
but only because we would get bored redpointing!
Answer from M. Csikszentmihalyi Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience
Getting bored huh? There is a simple solution to keep from getting bored while sport climbimg as it is exactly what M. Csikszentmihalyi suggest in his book on Flow.
Easy, choose some 8a climbs instead of any of those climbs in the 7 range. For Trad sakes, Boredom comes about when your task requires too little of your skillset.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Feb 10, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
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If someone had suggested that at age 58 I could still be climbing, and even aspiring to improve, I'd have said they were nuts!
Sometimes it strikes me how ridiculous it is that I am 62. It's best to not think about those numbers but just get on to what you think you can do. I say ridiculous because may 'age' seems to live in another universe than the one I live in.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
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I was in my gym locker room today and overheard a conversation. The discussion included "I just don't seem to want to work out as hard as I used to", "It used to be if I missed a workout session it was a big deal, now if I miss a couple, no big deal", "I just don't seem to have the recovery that I had when I was young". "My body can no longer take the abuse of working out every other day" These fellows said they were 42 and 43, were out of shape and were carrying extra weight. This is the kinda situation I was discussing in my original post: "because of desire reduction rather than body deterioration" Donini said it well: "Then there are the myriad of climbers who just give into the temptation to sit on the patio, drink in hand, and wax poetic about the good old days".
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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Feb 11, 2014 - 04:15am PT
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Hey Dingus,
Bored is a simplification. Where we live, the nearest meaningful sport climbing is a two hour drive away. The local crags offer either bouldering, or serious trad.
The bouldering is as hard as you want, and the trad, above 5.10 is typically all rather serious to deadly - and we don't top rope/redpoint here.
So most of my time is of nessecity spent bouldering, seeking out new stuff, a lot of it highball, so quite exciting.
Add to this that in the 25 years I was away from my patch, my contemporaries did all the death stuff, climbed 8a when it was hard, and are understandably reluctant to spend four hours in a car to get back redpointing something they did 20 years ago!
Similarly when we have our trips away there is an understandable reluctance to spend a week fighting two routes when you could onsight a lot....
If the local crags had hard sport - I'd probably be 'at it' 'gettin some', but it just ain't so.
But you are probably right, I should cowboy up more when I'm away, if I can find someone patient enough to belay me!
Regards,
Steve
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 11, 2014 - 10:45am PT
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Blakey,
typically all rather serious to deadly
and even more to the point of the ideas in Flow
Csikszentmihalyi has opposite to boredom: Anxiety and I detect some anxiety in that quote above.
But I agree that some areas just don't have the right mix [somewhere between boredom and anxiety] for one's skillset.
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JerryA
Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
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Feb 11, 2014 - 11:54am PT
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A lot of my current cycling friends who are in their 70's & 80's were also runners,swimmers,hikers ,climbers & skiers .We still do some of that sometimes but biking long distances is now phisically more rewarding & we can still cycle in lot's of places around the world.One 75 year-old friend rode 18,000 miles last year . I did not cycle across all of the cross -Sierra highway passes until I was in my 70's.
Let's go for a ride sometime John.
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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Feb 11, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
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Dingus,
You're losing me a bit here......
I guess I am anxious about the possibility of getting hurt. But I don't think I am, because I know I don't actually have to do anything risky - I'm not compelled to, and can choose my time, place and route (and I still do do risky stuff - but there's no real pressure to)
I think I might've lasted as long as I have by being anxious at the right time
;-)
Steve
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 11, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
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Blakey,
yes, unless you were traumatized from route, you wouldn't feel any anxiety unless you felt for sure you would soon be on it soon.
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Monte
Trad climber
Ocean Beach. CA
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Feb 14, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
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Everybody's right because everyone has a different mix of life parameters. Bodies are like favorite old cars. As they continue to acquire age and mileage, parts you never even knew about start to wear out and break. And for many of us, the reality of mortality that we only intellectualized about previously begins to be visceral and other priorities compete for our limited time. It's a young folks game that aging practioners hate to give up because it is just so damn fun. My partner and I bolted up a couple of 5.9's on lead last year (I'm 68) but I trashed my rotator cuff a few months later following Gary Anderson (that guy will NEVER quit) over a roof and it is healing very slowly. There are a thousand stories on the naked crag. I've always felt that there was a pretty good book here. How about it John Long?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Feb 14, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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A lot of my current cycling friends who are in their 70's & 80's were also runners, swimmers, hikers ,climbers & skiers .We still do some of that sometimes but biking long distances is now physically more rewarding . . . (Jerry)
Good comment. Those of us who are really old may change our activities, but many of us still have the urge to be physically active.
By the way, I failed the balance test even though my visual-aided balance is excellent. One reason you won't find me high up in the air anymore (there are other reasons as well!)
;>)
57 years ago, and it was not easy then!
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Feb 14, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
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The balance test says that my left and right sides are vastly different in
age. I attribute it to some nerve impairment in my left leg, which led to
muscle atrophy.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Oct 30, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
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Stumbled upon this in a search and am bumping because it highlights, I think, the value of history in our threads. How awful to lose this much accumulated wisdom. Although, perhaps because of the men and women of wisdom who are participating, this thread is unlikely to disappear. Thanks for all who contributed.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 11:16pm PT
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"only the good die young"
the rest of us fools keep trying
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 31, 2014 - 07:24am PT
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Where have all the old climbers gone?
Chin up people, there are more active old climbers today than there have ever been in the history of mankind!!
When I was a kid, we saw a silver back climber once in a blue moon. Now I see them on almost every single climbing trip.
Myself included!!
Celebrate: Old Guys Rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Oct 31, 2014 - 07:35am PT
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^^^Ha! Survival speaks the truth, seems those old guys were once upon a time someone in their 30's.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 31, 2014 - 07:39am PT
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57 years ago, and it was not easy then!
That means that I was 1 yr old then. And in the ensuing yrs as a climber and gymnast, I've never been able to do that! I suspect it's a specificity training thing.
Anyway, as we get more climbing years under our belt ( I've got 51) we by must needs, get smarter. We play to our strengths, watch our weaknesses, and do what we can. Today I'm off for several days to something that could be the hardest thing I've ever tried, but it's in my, as Monty Python says, "idiom/vernacular" I've long since lost my place in line to be " the best" but, if I can go out and get my reach out there, even if it exceeds my grasp, and I get an idea of where the boundaries are, in my field, I'm pretty damn happy with that! I'm pushing sixty, and this sh#t is still cool!
As Kerouac said, "it's the road, man!"
"A hand came out of heaven and pinned a badge on his chest,
"Get out there man, and do your best!""
-Jimi Hendrix, Astroman
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Oct 31, 2014 - 08:18am PT
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I'm pushing 63 now and still at it, not in such volume as I used to do but I still get out 2-3x a week and at least boulder.
I think the reason I stick with it is what I tell myself when I feel like just sitting and drinking a beer or two after work being depressed and that is that it would be really nice to get outside, even if I don't do a lot of pulling down. Just to get out.
I've seen a lot of people, esp sport climbers it seems (maybe I'm wrong), that go at it really hard for a while and then they get out of it and don't go back. The people that I know who have gone that way seemed to be into it for a lot of ego reasons, being really good like that and garnering all the respect of their peers really was what they were in it for. Seemed like when they couldn't get that rush anymore, they moved on to something else.
Whereas I'm still here, not the best of climbers by any means, but I enjoy what I do and a lot of it is the places that climbing takes me, more than needing some crowd approval. I am the black sheep around here, it is well known, in Lander, the home of self-aggrandizement. I'll admit it's nice once and awhile to be recognized. I'm not above that: nobody is. But as I've gotten older it seems more like what Joseph Stillwell said when his staff arranged a big party for him on his promotion to Major General: "the farther the monkey climbs up the flagpole, the more you see of his ass."
I think there are a lot of older climbers around, but they're pretty quiet and into it for their own reasons that preclude advertisement.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 31, 2014 - 09:57am PT
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Move to a really flat place.
I was arrested six times for asking, "Any thing to climb around here?"
It might have had something to do with wearing Lycra and EBs, and a caulk bag on a purple sling.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 31, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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Although his passing may have been sudden and difficult for his wife, friends and family, I always liked how Bob Kamps just kept climbing at a pretty high level and then he just took off and left the body all of a sudden. Everyone seems to have a slightly different pattern. He is another one of the old guard who I think is somewhat under represented in climbing history. A very wonderful man.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 31, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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Why do I climb less?
Simple
Climber + kid = less time to climb
Add a few more responsibilities - no time to climb
Amen. +4 kids.....
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