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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 19, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
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sorry, "scratch" is what chickens do on their own for food, "scratching" in the grass for grubs and insects and the various kinds of plant stuff that they eat on their own.
chickens are a bit like hogs, where on small farms you can feed them table scraps and then let them root up the rest on their own. but they need some kind of surveillance to keep them out of the garden veggies and to keep the predators off. most folks with backyard chickens have them in a pen during the night to keep out the weasels and coons and etc. but often let them out in the day.
that's not really doable on a big poultry ranch.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 20, 2014 - 07:50am PT
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How many gallons of water is required to raise one Delta Smelt?
Unlike cattle or chickens, nobody eats Delta Smelt.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 20, 2014 - 08:03am PT
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Too much work. I just use the leaf-blower instead.
How much water is required to produce 1/4 gallon of gasoline and a tablespoon of 2-cycle oil?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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we've known for a long time that water is over-allocated-- paul taylor was fighting the problem way back in the fifties, and norris hundley documented the problem in the great thirst.
here's the most recent uc davis study, which updates the measurements:
https://watershed.ucdavis.edu/files/biblio/WaterRights_UCDavis_study.pdf
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Aug 20, 2014 - 09:44am PT
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I wonder if there is ANY chance of a modern "reset" of water laws in California? Everyone knows they are about the most antiquated relics of laws on the books and could really use a modernization. These would include looking at groundwater and surface water with realistic values and an eye to the future. Allocations could be ranked on features like value to society (I.e job production and effects on local economies) and how efficiently water is used instead of antiquated, inaccurate allocations of the past. There are certainly those who stand to lose.
This is a California sized problem that needs addressing rather than kicking the can down the road a little bit more. The entire west needs such an overhaul and California could set the pattern.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 20, 2014 - 09:46am PT
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bergbryce, it's a little early in the morning to be smoking the Kumbaya spliff,
isn't it? Rational non-partisan legislative action in Sacramento? Strike
the spliff comment, you must be on crack!
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Aug 20, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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Don't Australians call coffee crack??
But I'm not in Australia this morning.
Wishful thinking I know but this problem isn't going to get any better.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 20, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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Modesto's good ole motto: Water, Wealth, Contentment, Health.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Those numbers? Not just made up.
You city slickers got us country folks runnin' all over these monster-ass processin' parlors (Foster Farms, locally) cleanin' all night so's you can sleep all night 'n not have to worry about SALMONELLA and the other boogers hidin' in spots you'd never ordinarily clean at home.
So just add these millions of gallons of water we use each year to clean up after nasty dead birds, goddamned peaches, and stinky tomato paste into yer figurin'; then you gotta figure that the truckers gotta have their reefers cleaned up, too.
We could also look at Joseph Gallo's mega-cheese making facility (again, our local employer) AND ALL THE REST OF THESE HICKSVILLE PROCESSIN' PLANTS ALL OVER THE STATE, and that water bill ain't so tiny after all, is it now?
It's gettin' serious. The feds are talkin' about recoverin' the water taken out of freeze-drying foods for all the various uses.
I got that from a guy at Mountain House. I'm sure it was a joke. Or was it? That's a lot of chicken marsala.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab_L4bbNHBI
Time for a freeze-dried Folgers break, using exactly one cup of water.
I will probably flush the toilet sometime this afternoon, too.
Guaranteed to make me f*#kin' happy!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2014 - 10:24am PT
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/wests-historic-drought-stokes-fears-of-water-crisis/2014/08/17/d5c84934-240c-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html
West’s historic drought stokes fears of water crisis
NB: I would post all the text but it is as long article. No problem with rain here, even though it is the Sunny Southeast (Co Wexford).
Reading a number of articles and information people have posted on this thread, it occurs to me that common sense is not prevailing - among the public, some agricultural 'concerns' and government officials. I know that is an understatement.
We know most civil servants, especially higher up, do not have common sense, it also sounds like the larger agi corporations are just plan greedy (hey, I love Californian almonds, but not at the cost of hurting both smaller farmers and the aquifiers).
And people, still planting lawns, especially in SoCal? Madness. And let's not forget the pot planters, fouling up streams (okay, not a big part of the problem, but still… I don't smoke anymore BTW).
So many concerns, so many with agendas. As mentioned earlier, perhaps it is time to hit people harder in the pocket to make them come to their senses about conserving.
Here in Ireland, come the autumn, householders and businesses are going to have to start paying for water, for the first time. Meters are being installed on a wide basis, and those without meters will have estimated bills.
I do not mind paying for a commodity like water (if it is not too much to pay, and it is projected to be some of the highest water charges in the EU), but I do object to when Irish Water (a new entity) will be privatized and the likely winner in any bidding will be the multi-billionaire, Denis O'Brien, (just like how he won the second mobile licence in 1996 and the Dublin radio licence in 1987, with a wink, wink, nod, nod and… will, you get it).
And as well, if the the previous governments and present had addressed infrastructure problems (ie… a lot, a lot a lot, of water lost through leaky pipes). People in some areas of Co Galway and elsewhere have to boil their water) because of the graft and incompetence of politicans, civli servants and those with vested interests.
Ireland is a country of rain, yet supplies in some areas, especially conurbation, are drying" up.
I know this goes off the topic of the drought in the West, but in some ways there are correlations.
Greed, incompetence, apathy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 20, 2014 - 10:26am PT
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Bloody 'ell, Paddy, there was no shortage of water in Ireland the last time
I was there, one NoBloodyVember.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2014 - 10:27am PT
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I wonder if there is ANY chance of a modern "reset" of water laws in California?
no.
both the leg and the brown admin are committed to doing as little as possible. things have gotten so bad, that local districts have finally generated some momentum for a kind of token gesture toward groundwater management, but that's still tied up in committee as the lobbyists rework the language, so we'll have to wait and see what comes out in the end. my guess is that it'll get pushed off until after the election.
and it's not a partisan problem-- the dem majority in the leg could easily write a groundwater management plan w/o any gop votes. but the dems don't want to, aside from the handful representing the delta.
two possible crisis scenarios would force dramatic change. the first is the overdue 100 year flood in the delta. 2-in-3 chance of that hitting before 2050, and usgs believes there is a significant prospect of a return of the inland sea. that'd change things.
second possibility-- and we have no way to calculate odds --is that the current drought is going to be another epic geo-historic drought on the scale of the 16th and 13th century droughts, i.e., a drought that lasts 50 years or more.
either of those scenarios will force drastic changes. either could likely generate a real constitutional crisis and economic dislocation of the kind californians have never seen.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Reilly, it is not so much a matter of a shortage of rain, but poor planning and poor infrastructure.
All those years Ireland was a recipient of A LOT of EU funding. Where did it all go? Loads of poor roads still (especially compared with other EU member states), poor water infrastructure, Garda (police) stations being closed down, especially in rural areas...yadi yadi ad nauseam.
I think every dog in the street knows where many of those funds went.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 20, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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If the Leg restricts ground water pumping, is that a taking or exercise of police powers?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 20, 2014 - 11:20am PT
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Water rights are property. The State can't just take someone's property without just compensation. California is broke, we don't have the money for necessary services as it is.
Does the Federal Government want to pony up the cash to buy out everyone's water rights, so that life can go on in California? That's going to be a tough sell to the taxpayers in places where water isn't a problem, and places where California and Californians aren't too popular. Especially since all the water needed to ease the *crisis* in California is being allowed to flow into the ocean to satisfy some nebulous environmentalist ideal.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2014 - 11:37am PT
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If the Leg restricts ground water pumping, is that a taking or exercise of police powers?
no. in fact, we're the only state that doesn't regulate groundwater. although az didn't do it until the feds threatened to turn off the tap.
worse, we can't even measure groundwater pumping. it's actually illegal to release pumping data to allow researchers to estimate groundwater use.
and chaz, why do you keep trolling this thread? you post those killer kite pix in other threads. and then you flush yer terlit into this one.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
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to satisfy some nebulous environmentalist ideal
Chaz, explain please, what is wrong with wanting to protect the environment? Somebody has to do it, as there are other parties with interests greater than the environment, in their minds.
Without a healthy environment, where would we be? Your goats? Smog and pollution? The extirpation or extinction of species?
There has to be a balance, on all sides of the equation? Does not humankind have the intelligence to find that balance?
Just wondering. Or should I have made all those questions rhetorical?
Some 38 million people and counting, eight, ninth, tenth (whatever figures you want to use) economy in the world. But it is sort of an insanity to want to grow water-intensive crops when water is a vital commodity in short supply.
I have no answers, just questions. There are people out there, in my native state (and elsewhere, as it is obvious other western ststes are being affected), whose job it is to find answers. Somehow, I think some of them are falling down on the job.
And of course the average Joe and Jane Smiths still want to keep their heads in the sand and ignore the fact they they are both one source of the problem and yet can be one of the solutions to the problem.
Awareness not ignorance. Action not apathy and indifference. Knowledge. It seems so obvious, but is anybody really listening?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 22, 2014 - 07:37am PT
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I wonder if there is ANY chance of a modern "reset" of water laws in California? Everyone knows they are about the most antiquated relics of laws on the books and could really use a modernization. These would include looking at groundwater and surface water with realistic values and an eye to the future. Allocations could be ranked on features like value to society (I.e job production and effects on local economies) and how efficiently water is used instead of antiquated, inaccurate allocations of the past. There are certainly those who stand to lose.
This is a California sized problem that needs addressing rather than kicking the can down the road a little bit more. The entire west needs such an overhaul and California could set the pattern.
I think not yet. Things are not yet bad enough. It requires a big enough crisis to stimulate the change that is needed.
Right now, it is crazy. If I own 60 square miles of land, I can pump an unlimited amount of water out of the ground. If I own 1 square foot---I can also pump out an unlimited amount of water. (not exactly, but you get the idea). It is not even measured.
I attended a panel discussion last night of heavy hitters:
• Patrick Cavanaugh, Malcolm Media Ag Publishing
• Sanjay Gaur, Raftelis Financial Consultants
• Jeffrey Kightlinger, The Metropolitan Water District of Southern California
• Larry Mantle, KPCC-Southern California Public Radio
• Jim McDaniel, Los Angeles Department of Water and Power
• Kate Poole, Natural Resources Defense Council
They seemed to agree that this is needed, but did not seem to think this was in our immediate future.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 22, 2014 - 07:52am PT
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Ken M writes:
"Right now, it is crazy. If I own 60 square miles of land, I can pump an unlimited amount of water out of the ground. If I own 1 square foot---I can also pump out an unlimited amount of water. (not exactly, but you get the idea). It is not even measured."
It's possible to own the land while the water rights are owned by someone else.
When my friend lived in Apple Valley, he owned his house and the land it sat on, but if he were to drill a well the water company would have put a meter on it to charge him for any water pumped out. Because when the original land owners sold the parcel, they didn't include water rights in the deal.
If the State decides they want to seize those rights, they're going to have to compensate the owners of those rights.
EDIT:
I'm seriously considering having a well drilled on my Redlands property. Not because I need a cheap reliable source of water ( I already have two ), but to get into the game when the State starts doling out "compensation" payments.
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