OT Just how bad is the drought? Just curious OT

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Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 26, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
California has always been, natural history wise, a land of droughts and floods. Yes, primarily in the 1960s, the Army Corps of Engineers, among others, did a lot of work (remember Eel River in 1964, for example) addressing floods.

But it seems that this year is particularly bad. I just saw a photo on the BBC website of Almaden Reservoir (near San Jose) dried up (with a wrecked old car on the parch-dried surface). I swam in that reservoir a couple of times. Now it looks like I could walk, not swim, it.

Now, it has been pissing all night and much of today here in Ireland. No lack of water (just infrastructure).

So since I am not in my homeland of Cali, and yes, I have been reading and seeing pics, but I ask my fellow Supertopians in California, just how bad is it?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jan 26, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
A 20" base at Squaw Valley in late January, if that's any indication...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
Seems so Mojede.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 26, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
It seems to be epic.

there have been other droughts in the past, but you are combining the lowest rainfall in history with the highest population in history and the largest amount of land farmed.

It's a collision course.

Fortunately, from the perspective of cities and people, there are many many ways to reduce use dramatically.

Although LA has the smallest per-capita use of any large city in the country at 127 gall/day average, when you compare it with the 40 gal/day average in australia, you appreciate how much more is possible.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 26, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
The Government's not worried about it, so it's no big deal. I won't be doing anything different.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 26, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
Not a lot of rainfall this year, yet. It'll come...

I'm right down the street from Almaden Res., even closer to Stevens Creek Res.

And just because resevoirs dry up, doesn't mean too much really. They're the back-up holding facilities.

Let's talk in a month or so.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jan 26, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
What often is overlooked in per capita/per day water usage is the numbers of gallons of bottled water also consumed - especially in trendy urban zones.

My neighbor works for the water district in Santa Barbara County and passed that little tidbit along to me. Says their rough guesstimate would increase usage rates by 10 - 15% were the studies to include purchased water products. Most usage studies rely on averaged meter readings.

Just because it's in a bottle doesn't mean it didn't also originate from local rainfall.

kenny morrell

Trad climber
danville,ca
Jan 26, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
Hi Patti- I think it is worst than 1977. At least in 1977 that's when z-boys stared skating empty swimming pools. Maybe something cool like that will come out of this.
BBA

climber
OF
Jan 26, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
It is so dry that the new grass which came up after the two pathetic rains we've had in Santa Rosa is browning out at only a few inches in height. Usually it is green here in December, but at the end of January it looks all brown. If it doesn't start raining a bit it is going to be a hard year for everyone, but dairy and beef will be destroyed.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 26, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
one year is not bad,

but if the same thing happens for the next two years, then you have trouble.

whitewater people don't like it, especially rafting companies,

this happened back in 74, 75 76? can't remember the exact years but i do remember camping above calaveras big trees on new years day and it was warm without a speck of snow, about 5,000 feet,

fish flows and water contracts lower water levels, then you have to use well water which is not everywhere, this type of drought puts pressure on politicians to build more dams and canals which is a bummer, have they blown up Iron Gate yet?

it is good for gold mining,
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 26, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
Both Whiskey Creeks closed and i got cotton mouth..That's bad...!
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 26, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
My city/county, major water use is probably agriculture..Rice, Walnuts, almonds, fruit trees,corn, seed crops,strawberries, flowers, bovine etc..

Lassen Park, Jan 2013
Lassen Park Jan 2014

Badger Pass Today
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
The beaches are doing great business for winter. That'll help make up for the lack of business in the ski towns.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
I biked down to Long Beach from the SGV last week and while I wouldn't call the beach crowded, the restaurants and shops along the main drag were packed!

I was up at Idyllwild today and it looks and feels like early summer.


There was a spell like this in the 70's that ended with a winter where the San Gabriel River was within a foot of the levy tops at El Monte for almost a week. 7 years of drought to one year of flood, give or take, seems to be the normal cycle.

Then there's the long term perspective, and it's not encouraging. It looks like we've been living in an unusually wet period for the west, for the last couple of hundred years.

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_24993601/california-drought-past-dry-periods-have-lasted-more

Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
ekat.....the trickle UP theory?

Dean, was down in Mammoth on business and went in to your town on the way home for breakfast, absolutely deserted like a bomb went off. Let's hope this next weekend brings us the goods. I'm heading to MT on Wed., for some skiing.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
Wendell is right, everybody needs to chill out. This is Cali, it happens. People piss and moan when we have wet years, and they piss and moan in dry years.

Meh. I'm used to it. Use it to yer advantage.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
They should think about making snow in Mammoth and June, like they do in SoCal. They're skiing in Big Bear today - on man-made snow.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
From the US Drought monitor:

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/Home/StateDroughtMonitor.aspx?CA

Nope, nothing at all to worry about. I think I may water the lawn tomorrow, maybe go golfing. Carry on folks!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
I don't know about y'all, but I'm hoarding ammo and rations. Dudes, martial law is right around the corner.

Nice knowing y'all...
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
Charlie D. , we're not having a great snow year, BUT a few early seasons dump gave us some base, so the snowpack is decent--luckily for you, some more snow is on the way this week...
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 26, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
In Los Angeles, we had a couple of campers start a wild fire near Glendora, burned about 1800 acres, destroyed a few houses. Even in a light winter, you normally don't need to worry about fires in January, so the warmth and dryness is pretty unprecedented.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
They were bums, vagrants, not campers!

Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
mojede, we'll be heading into Bozeman which may be getting the most snow of anywhere in the lower 48? Anyway have family in town and can't wait to get on my new powder boards, we'll see what shapes up, here's to cold smoke.....cheers!

Charlie D.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
I heard from a friend that the skiing on Mammoth Mt. is decent inspite of the lack of precip...?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
We Californian's have nothing to worry about because we will just buy water from out ta state.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
They say it's the worse in 100 years. It's damned severe and nothing to make light of or ignore. The dryness is stretching up the entire west coast. Sad to say but many folks in many industries are going to get hurt real real bad by it, and the cali economy will feel this hit. Not just the ski resorts, although they get to be first. The list of those affected will sadly be much too long.

Side note, cattle and other livestock will hit some fairly low prices before later hitting significant highs. Although it may be mitigated by the weather in the midwest which is markedly different. So, buy beef now if you are planning on it and you can afford to stuff yer freezer. If you are a praying person, might not hurt to say a prayer for some of the wet stuff.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
The Fresno Bee had a story about the drought today, calling it catastrophic. Some Berkeley scientists who look at fossil records estimate this year to be the worst drought in the last 500 years, far worse than 1976-77 and 1923-24, which were the driest years on record.

Surprisingly my local cities, Clovis and Fresno have not called for any limits to water use or outside watering.

I think that most irrigation districts than rely on Sierra water will be able to supply only a few days at the most of surface water for their farmers. Many irrigation districts will not be able to supply any water at all, since they have less senior rights.

To grow crops or even just to keep trees alive, everyone will be pumping groundwater. The water table will drop quickly and many pumps will run dry. Wealthier farmers who could afford to drill deeper wells in the recent past, will be able to continue pumping while their neighbors go dry. This sort of thing is already occurring in areas such as Paso Robles.

The cause is a very large and very stable high pressure zone in the Pacific. Supposedly it has been stable for about 13 months and shows no sign of changing. No one seems to have any idea why this high pressure zone has been so stable or how long it might last. It could suddenly change, send us a little rain or a deluge, or it could last for years and years.

We may get through it, or a lot of people will be leaving California.

http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/01/25/3733170/a-catastrophic-change.html
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
It's killing the economy of ski towns...including my own.

It's not helping us up here any either Dean. Although we are doing better than you guys!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 26, 2014 - 09:48pm PT

Druggies too.
ThomasKeefer

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 26, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
TGT - what were you on today? I was doing Whodunnit with an LA partner.
It was crazy - climbing in just a long sleeve shirt!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 27, 2014 - 03:54am PT
those guys are pot heads, not druggies,

who did you expect to see, the Marlboro Man?

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 05:30am PT
It's damned severe and nothing to make light of or ignore.

Couchmaster is right, it is nothing to make light of or ignore. Bluey, Chaz, TGT and others, you make light of the situation, perhaps because it may not being affecting you as much as others.

Yes we have seen these cycles, as I noted in my opening post/thread

California has always been, natural history wise, a land of droughts and floods.

But as the state relies so much on water, with one of the largest agriculture “industries” in the world (this includes forestry as well), as well as recreational use, and the population pushing past 38 million, home to one out of eight Americans roughly, it is a precious ‘commodity’.


… or a lot of people will be leaving California.
Paul, that may not be such a bad thing
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jan 27, 2014 - 07:57am PT
Well, I can speak for a local observation here in the Santa Monica's. It's the driest I've ever seen it in 40 years. I spent most of the weekend hiking/climbing in several locations and didn't see any new green plants...anywhere. Although 80 degree temps in Jan is nice for climbing, it seemed totally weird and blasted. Generally, even in the driest winters with very little rain there's at least a small underlayment of short green grass or weeds coming up on N-Facing slopes. Nada. Even the hard-core invasive stuff is beat down by the heat and lack of moisture.

This is So Cal though.. extremes run in cycles. Next year we'll probably be bitching about El Nino washing houses off the hillsides. FYI: the last time we had enough rain to flood my house was 2004.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 27, 2014 - 09:16am PT
Forty Years? Just kidding, JustLikeThe Maid. Have you got flood insurance?Speaking of floods, I was gonna try to sand bag you, Padraig, with this shot from the local dells.

I'f like to report that we're all good here, now.

Maaaaaa! That's sheep dip.

It's just as bad as you can imagine, and will get lots worse, regardless if it rains now. Unless it rains for forty days and forty nights.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 09:36am PT
TGT - what were you on today? I was doing Whodunnit with an LA partner.
It was crazy - climbing in just a long sleeve shirt!

No climbing.

ICA meeting with FS

Not making light of the situation at all. It's likely that at some point agriculture will disappear from California. That will be a deacdes long process.

I'm not going to panic either. I've lived long enough, and being a second generation Californio, heard enough first hand agricultural history, and seen enough media hyperbole to know it's not time to panic yet.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 09:51am PT
I'm in the water business.

I've got a good handle on what's being done and what's been in process for decades.

Your bills are going up, but the taps aren't going to run dry if you are in a metropolitan area. (or even someplace like Jtree)


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 10:05am PT
Besides transport projects, just about every waste treatment plant in California either now has or will have at least tertiary treatment and full reclaimed water use.

Some of the plants go even farther with RO treatment to drinking water standards.



http://cdmsmith.com/en-US/Solutions/Water/The-Next-Frontier-of-Water-Reclamation.aspx

OCSD's will be built out to 130mgd San Jose has one too.

Then there are the large desal projects.


http://carlsbad.patch.com/groups/business-news/p/carlsbad-desalination-plant-25-completed-with-expected-2016-opening
Posiedon in Carlsbad has broken ground (50MGD) and there's another large one that will be owned by Cal Water in the preconstruction process in Monterey.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 27, 2014 - 10:34am PT
recreational watering for lawns and golf courses needs to be shut down immediately. SoCal is a frikkin desert.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 27, 2014 - 10:42am PT
Does it matter where the water came from? Or where it would go if it weren't used to irrigate lawns or golf courses?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 10:50am PT
In the short term, is JB right to request a 20% decrease in water use?

The 20% decrease was mandated by a program that started several years ago and most agencies are well on their way to compliance.

Most golf course, park and street median irrigation is now done with reclaimed water, other than some areas like Palm Springs.

this just in

climber
north fork
Jan 27, 2014 - 10:50am PT
The air quality is so bad, driving home from Bakersfield last week a little bit of wind made the place look like the dust bowl. Oh wait I wasn't alive for that. We need the rain to clear that sh#t out.
REI in Fresno didn't stock ski and snow this year, Targhetto has bikinis for sale already. Shitty year to be an injured climber.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 27, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Does it matter where the water came from? Or where it would go if it weren't used to irrigate lawns or golf courses?

uh yeah, its called FOOD!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 11:03am PT
A statewide mandate won't help anything.

Individual water districts know full well what their situation is can (and will) mandate restrictions locally as required.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 27, 2014 - 11:14am PT
People are leaving California...Lack of jobs and high taxes and now lack of water...Too many people and lack of water..Something has to give...Mammoth Mt. just announced the construction of yet another mini village in town...This announcement comes after LADWP sued the Mammoth County Water District reducing the amount of water that will stay in Mammoth Creek...I skied with a local water scientist who keeps informing the local planning commission that there is no more water to be had but this warning falls on deaf ears...Of course any new water exploration gets pasted on to the local rate payers proving that corporate welfare is alive and well..
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Jan 27, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Here is a link to a California Water Commission website which shows the current levels of the major reservoirs in the state. Though I am only an amateur scientist, it seems alarming the low level of the reservoirs.

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/resapp/getResGraphsMain.action
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 27, 2014 - 11:28am PT
People are leaving California

Um, no.


Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 11:30am PT
I say, let's invade BC, and Ireland too. Ireland has the water if you have the means, declare war now.

Build a canal from BC to California, let's suck the Canadians' water, like what was done with the Owen's Valley, Colorado River, northern California water. Those swimming pools in So Cal need watering.

The Canucks won't mind when they are looking at a nuclear missile pointing at them. Bypass Seattle, land of my father and brothers, run it down Highway 395, and drain Tahoe, it's too deep anyway. May be some good climbing there below the water line, when it dries out.

Forget Hetch Hetchy, it's an eyesore anyway.

Water, water, my kingdom for some water.

SoCal is a frikkin desert

Too right Patrick. I blame the Spanish missionaries and then Hollywood and film companies, setting up in what is basically a desert to avoid patent lawsuits in New York.


Actually, there is an ongoing 'scandal' here in Ireland with some of the salaries, benefits and pensions being paid to senior members of Irish Water.

Water meters are being introduced in Ireland now, and State-body Irish Water is the overseer. Ireland has had some water problems, but it is poor infrastructure rather than lack of precipitation (boy, do we get that), leaking pipes, corrupt officials and politicians.

It is just a matter of time before Irish Water is privatized, as in many other countries. And who is positioning himself to take over, that billionaire D O'B ("I am not a crook", Richard Nixon, November 1973), though the Moriarty Tribunal thinks otherwise. But no smoking gun and now he's flying Bill Clinton around on his (Denny's) private Gulfstream, rubbing elbows with other (crooked???) billionaires in Davos. Denis is NOT crooked by the way. And don't let it on, but I free-soloed The Nose, bypassing the chiseled holds.

O’Brien paid €45 million to take control of Siteserve, a company which has been described as an ‘infrastructure and utilities support services’ business. But one of its divisions is in civil engineering and its activities are described as ‘water networks rehabilitation/water meters’.

Damn, I should have gotten into the brown envelope game instead of journalism.

Back to water, Ireland has plenty but it is mismanaged. Likewise in California… mismanagement that is.

Climate change? History would show that weather patterns in California have been much the same over the decades. Is this changing? Time will tell.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 27, 2014 - 11:51am PT
^^^
Irish water problem? WTF. Buy a cistern and a bottle of Clorox, and give the govt the finger.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Jan 27, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
A few photos from this past weekend. Still can't believe how DRY this season has been! *sigh*






Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
Actually Elcapinyoazz, in my previous residence in Dalkey, I did have two water butts (no jokes please) that would collect runoff from my greenhouse.

California's water problems are down to a number of issues, primarily weather.

Ireland's water problems (yes there are) are down to poor management, crap civil servants and politicians, and greedy companies and wealthy individuals looking to make more money off the average person.

It is playing out as I write.

Money that over the years, especially the Celtic Tiger years, that should have put into infrastructure went instead into the banks, developers, politicians and wealthy "businesspeople".

And one particular man is gearing himself up to not fix the infrastructure but to bleed the people of their money. But he is not the only one, of course. These leeches are in every country.

And put aside the money from telecoms (where he found his fortune), media, cars, gas, energy… water is the most powerful "tool" for making money. We all need water.

And just about 99.999% of the world is helpless to prevent water from making the rich richer.

"Chinatown", a brillant film of the water wars. The Owens Valley used to be green, Hetch Hetchy was sacrificed. The California Aqueduct, voted for because the Southland had more political clout. East Bay Mud (East Bay Municipal Utility District), used to have water that was not mud, some of the best in the US, yes sourced primarily from the Sierra.

Then the drought of 1977, and Contra Costa Water District struck a deal to exchange water with East Bay Mud, and it was noticeable in the first few months the quality of EBMUD water was going down, as Contra Costa Water used the delta as a major source, and we know that the quality of water flowing in the delta from both the Sacrament and San Joaquin rivers was being compromised over the years.

In some ways I wish I was an evil and corrupt "entrepreneur", then I could make it rich on water. But could I sleep at night.

Sure, I'll just tow what's left of the icebergs from both poles. I'll be long dead before a global water crisis affects me. Or will I?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 27, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
Build a canal from BC to California, let's suck the Canadians' water,

Patrick, that was seriously proposed about 20 years ago. Some company wanted to lower Shuswap Lake (in BC) by about a meter to pipe water to California. Local residents were up in arms and the whole thing fizzled.

I was reading the following story in the San Jose Mercury last night about California's history of drought. We could be in for serious times considering what has happened in the past.

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_24993601/california-drought-past-dry-periods-have-lasted-more

Through studies of tree rings, sediment and other natural evidence, researchers have documented multiple droughts in California that lasted 10 or 20 years in a row during the past 1,000 years -- compared to the mere three-year duration of the current dry spell. The two most severe megadroughts make the Dust Bowl of the 1930s look tame: a 240-year-long drought that started in 850 and, 50 years after the conclusion of that one, another that stretched at least 180 years.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 27, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Does this mean we can't hose off our driveways for a while?
Doesn't broom-making contribute to global warming?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 27, 2014 - 12:33pm PT
What are the total projected needs and available for say ten years out? To what degree will the waste water recovery projects make up for projected losses / shortfalls? Are there any other measures projected to contribute to making up for possible inadequacies?

What are the energy reguirements of these projects, such as desalination plants? Where is this energy expected to come from?

Bruce, critical questions, for sure.

Waste water recovery has the potential to make up a huge amount of our needs.
The problem is, that it takes many years to build the infrastructure. I'm involved in a LADWP project to purify 60M gal/day of water to drinking standards. Estimate is that not a drop will be available until 2024.

That's the problem with all engineering projects. They take decades, and a million dollars is a rounding error.

Of course, conservation costs nothing (depending upon what you are doing), and works instantly.

Desal is very expensive. the actual production costs more than 2x what other sources cost, mainly because of electrical costs. They take forever to get built. The ones being built now, were for the projections that did not include a drought. OOOPS.

The other problem with desal, is that it has to be done at sea level, which means the water has to be pumped uphill, in contrast with most water sources, that flow downhill naturally. So...a lot more energy, in some cases much more than the cost of making the water.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
But Malemute, nothing wrong with evaporation if the water is returned in the hydrologic cycle, or is that the hydro-logical cycle? And when the tender comes up to build and manage the pipeline, (again easier to build in Western Washington and Oregon than down the Highway 5 corridor, I'd think) I want to be the first one to make a bid. Though first I have to cheat a whole bunch of taxpayers and perhaps hit a lot of old ladies over their heads for their purses.

"Canadian Water, the Best," will be the slogan… "BC, Be Cause, it has yellow water".


EDIT

Apologies Taco Standers, I did not intend on demeaning this thread with some useless info.

And, what about Oregon, Washington, Idaho, BC, Nevada, Arizona and such… how much are they being affected by the (super?) high off the West Coast?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
Jeez, some of the photos on this thread are scary.

What about 120? Are the Meadows open and Tioga Pass?


EDIT

Ron, that may be good news. But I can't help but think that if the high does move, that the West Coast may be in for a deluge. Again, I will point to my opening post, droughts and floods.

And I am always amazed, by the following… (from Wikipedia)

The Christmas flood of 1964 was a major flood that took place in the Pacific Northwest and California between December 18, 1964 and January 7, 1965, spanning the Christmas holiday.

Considered a 100-year flood, it was the worst flood in recorded history on nearly every major stream and river in coastal Northern California and one of the worst to affect the Willamette River in Oregon. It also had an impact on parts of southwest Washington, Idaho, and Nevada.

In Oregon seventeen people died as a result of the disaster, and it caused hundreds of millions of dollars in damage. The flooding on the Willamette covered 152,789 acres (61,831.5 ha). The National Weather Service rated the flood as the fifth most destructive weather event in Oregon in the 20th century.

California Governor Pat Brown was quoted as saying that a flood of similar proportions could "happen only once in 1,000 years," and it was often referred to later as the Thousand Year Flood.

The flood killed 19 people, heavily damaged or completely devastated at least 10 towns, destroyed all or portions of more than 20 major highway and county bridges, carried away millions of board feet of lumber and logs from mill sites, devastated thousands of acres of agricultural land, killed 4,000 head of livestock, and caused $100 million in damage in Humboldt County, California alone.

Perhaps history my repeat itself but instead of Pat Brown as governor, son Jerry will be.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 27, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
Tioga Pass is locked up...Sawyer Road is still drivable..
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Hey you, Rotten Johnny, you seen Jimbo lately? Say hi for me, and I suppose Claude too.

But what Sawyer Road? There are so many as we get around.

Douglas City, Patrick's Point, Sawyer's Bar. You heard it here first, the coming deluge will wash out the rock at Patrick's Point State Park, flush Douglas City down the Trinity River and send Sawyer to the Bar. I own northwestern California.

Douglas Patrick Sawyer (Nostradamus was nothing compared to me).


EDIT

John, looking at some of the photos on this thread of other Sierra scenery/passes, is Tioga Pass locked up for admin reasons, or is there snow (of significant amounts) there?

And what about Bodie? According to the rangers at the time, my friend Andy and I were the first to x-c ski in there (1974), but I do not believe that for one second. I'd imagine with this drought, one could drive quite easily into Bodie, sans snow.

I can only hope that the West Coast receives some rain in manageable amounts these coming weeks. A good snow pack to last through the summer. Yes, I care about people, but people can move quite readily (well, perhaps not economically, Jennie and I are skint here in Ireland). But I think about the flora and fauna in Cali, Oregon, Washington, BC and elsewhere.

Water is so precious, I know that is an overstatement, It's pissing again here in the Sunny Southeast of Wexford. Wish I could send you all some rain.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 27, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
People can't seem to understand that it's not the environment failing us, but rather the other way around.....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 27, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
Sawyer...I have a friend who lived in Sawyer Bar and another friend who climbed at Patrick Point...Cut me a deal on some real estate...
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Jan 27, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
Paul , how sweet was Monitor Pass on that last stretch heading down to 395 ? Long sweeping curves ... beautiful riding .
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Hey you rotten John, I could sell you some landfill in the South Bay (Fremont, San Jose, Hayward area), but I might get done for it, as it is prone to quivering like jelly in an earthquake. Got 1-1/4 acre in West Virginia, interested? And John, I just collected some rain to send you, but the darn envelope leaked. I have to remind myself not to send liquids in paper envelopes.

And Survival, yes, I challenge anybody to say that humans do not impact on the earth. But according to the late Ronnie Raygun, so do cow farts and belches… and volcanoes, and…



EDIT

Johnny, I first climbed at Patrick's Point in 1972. Not much rock but fun. There is/was this sea stack with a fine 5.9ish crack up it, short, about 50 feet, but a gas.

I am going to start a sea cliff/coastal climbing thread. I only have a couple of pix of me bouldering in the west of Ireland near Doolin along the sea. But with all respects to the late Michael Reardon, rogue waves do happen, so one must be careful and aware.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 27, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Thanks Paddy for the rain...I'm thankful you didn't send me some cow methane in that envelope...Big Jim is out and about but i haven't seen him yet...Rarely do...Carry on..
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Jan 27, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
Paul , how sweet was Monitor Pass on that last stretch heading down to 395 ? Long sweeping curves ... beautiful riding .

Dapper,

Not sweet enough to really push it in the corners. The front tire tucked on me a few times due to fine gravel along the center of the turns that's hard to see.

"Oh, so THAT'S why my bike feels like it's floating in the curves." Haha. Yikes!!

No ice though, so I was happy.

My right grip heater stopped working. So I had to buy some ski gloves in Minden, NV and stuff them with hand warmers. Haha.




crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 27, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
Snowing in Boulder--and a lot more than they predicted. But it's upslope, from the east. Not helping the ski resorts in the mountains.

In Moab over the weekend. No wind, no cloud, cold, weak sun. Been that way every day for weeks. There was snow on the ground, a months old, even in sunny spots.

Where's the pacific storms this winter?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
The Christmas flood of 1964 was a major flood that took place in the Pacific Northwest and California between December 18, 1964 and January 7, 1965, spanning the Christmas holiday.

Considered a 100-year flood, it was the worst flood in recorded history on nearly every major stream and river in coastal Northern California and one of the worst to affect the Willamette River in Oregon. It also had an impact on parts of southwest Washington, Idaho, and Nevada.

Nothin' compared to 1860

Orange County was an inland sea for three weeks.

Sacramento under water for a month.


http://www.redlandsfortnightly.org/papers/Taylor06.htm
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jan 27, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
To grow crops or even just to keep trees alive, everyone will be pumping groundwater. The water table will drop quickly and many pumps will run dry. Wealthier farmers who could afford to drill deeper wells in the recent past, will be able to continue pumping while their neighbors go dry.

worth repeating. folks with senior rights to subsidized water are selling that stuff to their neighbors at a high margin, then pumping the wells.

we now have a 1200 sq mile subsidence zone in the upper sj valley. a bit south of merced, the floor has been dropping a foot per year! it's so bad that's it's damaged the d-m canal.

and we've got thousands of new acres of almond tress going in in eastern contra costa and elsewhere-- we're going to have extreme mining scenarios this year. AZ and CO already regulate groundwater pumping, just because of this kind of experience.

this drought may be the end of a huge chunk of small ranchers and farmers. folks are culling herds already. and since we didn't have a grass season, there isn't grass to reseed for next year even if next season is wetter.

by and large, the smaller ranchers tend to be better about range management and ar emore likey to run grass-fed beef rather than those feedlot steroid freaks.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
The 1860 flood literally bankrupted the entire state and put an end to the ranchero system forever.

The Sacramento Daily Union reported that 1/3 of the taxable property in the state of
California was lost, and also estimated that ¼ of all cattle were drowned (200,000). One house in eight was destroyed and 7/8 of all houses were damaged. The loss of all property was between $50 and $100 million (Brewer, 1966, p246). This sum corresponds to an average loss of between $100 and $200 for every person in the state. (The loss of cattle by flood, and the record drought year that followed, ended the early California cattle industry, and the cattle-based ranchero society (Jelinek, 1998/1999).
Brewer writes, on January 19, 1862:
“The great central valley of the state is under water – the Sacramento and San Joaquin valleys -- a region 250 to 300 miles long and an average of at least twenty miles wide, or probably three to three and a half millions of acres! Although much of it is not cultivated, yet a part of it is the garden of the state. Thousands of farms are entirely under water – cattle starving and drowning. All the roads in the middle of the state are impassable; so all mails are cut off. We have had no “‘Overland” for some weeks, so I can report no new arrivals... The telegraph also does not work clear through, but news has been coming for the last two days. In the Sacramento Valley for some distance the tops of the poles are under water. The entire valley was a lake extending from the mountains on one side to the coast range hills on the other. Steamers ran back over the ranches fourteen miles from the river, carrying stock, etc, to the hills.”
Remember Judge Field? He was responsible for support for Whitney and Brewer’s investigations. His home, although located on one of the higher areas of Sacramento, was filled with two feet of mud after the food waters subsided.

For a week the tides at the Golden Gate did not flood, rather there was continuous and forceful ebb of brown fresh water 18-20 feet deep pouring out above the salt water. A sea captain reported that his heavily laden ship foundered in the Gulf of the Farallons off of San Francisco, due to the layer of fresh water. Fresh-water fish were caught in San Francisco Bay for several months after the peaks of the flood. These events have not happened since. (Ellis 1936)

Peak flow of the Santa Ana river in San Bernardino, (about where the 10 freeway crosses) was estimated at 320,000 cfs For perspective the total maximum flow of the Mississippi is between 200, 700 thousand CFS depending on the year.

From stream bed geology along the coast it looks like this kind of event is a regular 250-500 year occurrence.


neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jan 27, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
hey there say, patrick, thanks for the title share, here...
(i'm a calif gal and remember drought, dry years, etc, and the thoughts
of folks at these times)...

paul... thanks for the interesting info...

kunlun_shan... thanks for the news link...




also:
on the side note, as to all this... just curious????
does the lack of deep water in ground, etc,
cause enough change in the berocks/ground, etc,
as to make calif more earthquake iffy?
as to the movement, around or near the faults???


thanks for any info, on this, as well as drought info...
Mcschiz

Sport climber
Mt. Shasta, California
Jan 27, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
It has rained/snowed for a total of 12 hours in the past 6 months in the Shasta area
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jan 27, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
neebee, the drought and the groundwater pumping don't seem to change earthquake probabilities, although no one knows for certain.

but ground subsidence from all the pumping dramatically increases the range of areas exposed to major floods, and in some cases (i.e. increasing pressure on dikes/levees) makes flooding more likely.

the subsidence study shocked a lot of folks, including the study authors. way worse than anyone anticipated. and some of that damage is like small, local earthquake damage.

worth reading

http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2013/5142/
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jan 27, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
hey there say, klk... thank you for the share...
i will go read it...

i know getting curious doesn't help fix things, but i just try to
understand... :)


say, i do NOT know IF THIS is 'reliable' etc... but it was interesting to
look at...

someone 'more in the know' can check it out...
it lists flood and drought info... etc...
as a sort of study...

http://geochange.er.usgs.gov/sw/impacts/hydrology/state_fd/cawater1.html
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jan 27, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
On the Central Coast - we are beginning to hear the first rumblings of discontent aimed at the vineyards.

A lot of the residential properties east of Paso Robles and in the Santa Ynez area rely on private wells - some of which have quit producing in the past few months. The grumblings about the "damn retirees with their boutique vineyards sucking up the water" is becoming a louder refrain in both areas.

Locally, we are starting to see more horses offered up for quick sale on Craigslist along with small herds of goats, sheep and cattle. A buddy of mine just culled his sheep stock from 60 down to 20 - mainly holding on to the ewes still feeding their lambs - but with a bale of alfalfa running 28 bucks when the normal price was 13 - he's thinking he may have to cut the whole herd pretty soon.

What is interesting given the lack of drowning rains is the EXPLOSION of gopher and ground squirrel intrusion. The little SOBs have devastated yards and gardens - even ate 6 of 8 rose bushes in my yard.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Jan 27, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Earlier today Patrick Sawyer queried:

"And, what about Oregon, Washington, Idaho, BC, Nevada, Arizona and such… how much are they being affected by the (super?) high off the West Coast?"

Although the ridge may break down temporarily later this week, from what I've read on the National Weather Service sites, it is forecast to build back up.

Check out this from the Climate Prediction Center:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 27, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
Regarding where alot of our water goes, from the Natural Resources Defense Council:
Agriculture now uses approximately 80 percent of California's developed water supply, but produces less than 2.5 percent of California's income.
Alfalfa, the biggest water user of any California crop, soaks up almost a quarter of the state's irrigation water. Yet alfalfa -- harvested mostly for hay to feed dairy livestock -- is a low-value crop that accounts for only 4 percent of state farming revenues. An alfalfa farm using 240 acre feet of water generates $60,000 in sales, while a semiconductor plant using the same amount of water generates 5,000 times that amount, or $300 million. (And while such a farm could function with as few as two workers, the semiconductor plant would employ 2,000.)
In short, California devotes 20 percent of its developed water supply to a crop that generates less than one-tenth of one percent of the state's economy. Given the degraded state of California's rivers and growing demands for water for higher value agricultural crops and urban areas, is this an efficient use of a precious resource?
Alfalfa covers more of California's land than any other kind of produce. About 26% is grown in the state's parched southern deserts, and despite the existence of demonstrated techniques for achieving high crop yields with water-saving methods -- such as drip irrigation and bedded alfalfa
    most California growers use inefficient irrigation techniques such as flooding.
Excessive water use isn't the only cost associated with alfalfa crops. Seventy percent of the state's alfalfa feeds California's largest agricultural industry: its dairy cows. Dairy farms in the Central Valley alone produce as much waste as a city of 21 million; illegal manure waste from dairies is believed to threaten the drinking water of 65 percent of Californians. In total, 7,000 gallons of water go into keeping a single cow alive for a single day, yielding a daily return of about 30 cents. Wasteful subsidies worsen this problem by increasing dairy demand for alfalfa.
Although alfalfa does yield some environmental benefits -- maintaining soil health, providing some wildlife habitat and preventing erosion through its extensive root systems -- current production levels are unsustainable, contributing to the destruction of ecosystems all over the state.
Even a modest reduction in production would result in tremendous water savings.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jan 27, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
yeah, megadairies and almonds. two of the worst things to happen to california in the last 20 years.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 27, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
Sactown has been raised twice, second raise did not go all the way to old town, so you see a rise when driving up Broadway near the projects, graveyard is higher than the projects, got to save the rich dead people,

fire has torched that town a couple of times, tough life that place had,

you can dig down and find old buildings in some places,

lived on top of an old dump, use to dig for antique bottles,

rice farmers should be alright, shasta will give them water,

klk

Trad climber
cali
Jan 27, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
yeah, 76-77.

the cdec site has the april 1 totals and a lot more. useul site and worh exploring if folks don't already know it:

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/products/April_1_SWC.pdf
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jan 27, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
hey there say, randishi... i remembered that 70's drought too, and i wanted to find it, which i did, after a bit of looking... and as timid shared, the rains came...

i think i was up visiting, too, for the one in the 90's, as, it seemed worse, than the 70's was...

i remember as kids, my mom was always mentioning about the dryness and fire danger levels, etc... (when we were on hikes) ...

thanks for all the share, and the land use/water use stuff that
i never knew/or know about...

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 27, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
There are probably a billion people in the world that have never peed into a basin of clean water like we do several times a day.

The Romans were shiting and pissing in a stream of clean water 2000+ years ago.

Know where the aqueducts flushed?


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 27, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Uphill ? I give up...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 28, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
The dogs of drought won't capitulate. One world-

Where is new world order 2?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jan 28, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
Hey eKat!

Do you know what parts of the UpperK they are on? Tribs?

We are dry down here, how is it is in the n. Flathead? Hopefully this storm frikkin storms! I had an April conditions ski tour in the B-Roots over the weekend.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 1, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
For perspective, California would have to experience heavy rain and snowfall every other day from now until May to get the state back to its average annual precipitation totals, according to the Department of Water Resources.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 1, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
I think you are looking at this all wrong. The glass is half full, not half empty.

Someone should take this opportunity to do a winter traverse of the Sierra Nevada without skis.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 1, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
Nothing to worry about here.

The local water company says they have plenty for this year, and probably next year, too.

All of our water comes from the local ( San Bernardino ) mountains.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 1, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
Nothing to worry about here.

The local water company says they have plenty for this year, and probably next year, too.


yeah, the MWD and DWP have done good jobs of management. it's also an easier region for managers becuase most of the ag land has gone out of production. residential uses so much less water than ag.

the problem areas in SoCal are mostly either the remaining ag areas, or newer residential areas upstream with junior rights.

you are going to see problems in parts of sb and rivco, though, as ag users up the groundwater pumping-- there's going to be subsidence issues and wells going dry.

but MWD is in comparatively good shape.

John M

climber
Feb 1, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
All of our water comes from the local ( San Bernardino ) mountains.

where are you Chaz, because I thought you got your water from the MWD, and they get most of their water from the california aqueduct. from the Colorado river, and from the owens river Doesn't mean that you aren't fine. I don't know that. I don't' know how much water the local dams contain. I was just curious about the above statement.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 1, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
What is it like up at Tuolumne Meadows right now?

By the way, everyone should invest in one of these units

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28003681/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/t/turning-air-water-gadget-does-just/#.Uu3ApNTTncs
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 1, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
aspendougy,

This is Jan 26, 2014..

This is from todays Sentinel Dome webcam..Feb 1 ,2014

Can't find 2013....

This is March 17, 2012


April 9, 2011

Dec, 23, 2010

klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 1, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
bruce,

the drought is a disaster.

ironically, the driest part of the state, where chaz lives, is also the most urbanized. and it has 2 huge water management agencies, the MWD and then the DWP (and then a slew of others), that manage water use.

socal is also the most urban part of the state. that means way less water use.

ag burns most of the state's water. (that's true of each state in the arid west== nv, az, co, ut, id, and on). essentially all ag here is irrigation ag subsidized by tax payers.

once the taxpayers (most of whom live in the urban areas) work out that most of the water is getting burned by subsidized corporate farmers producing luxury crops for export, all hell is going to break lose.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 1, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
"All of our water comes from the local ( San Bernardino ) mountains."


neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 2, 2014 - 06:36am PT
hey there, say, nita... thank you for sharing all the 'half domes'...

wow... :(

say, does anyone have pics of this area, or info, on if there were ever any other 'snowless years' ... you got me very curious now...
(i mean as to wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back when, like 16, 17, 1800's)...
though, of course, were not folks walking around with cameras, around then, :(
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 2, 2014 - 11:43am PT

Looks like some solid precip coming our way this week and part of next week...Yeah!...

edit,kunlun_shan..I saw on the weather map it's snowing on Mt Lick, and mixed rain/ light snow on Diablo.......Chance for a couple of sprinkles later today in Chico.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Feb 2, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
Raining here in San Francisco today - the most rain we've had since early December. Weather radio predicts a wet event streaming off the Pacific next weekend. Hopefully the ridge is finally shifting.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 2, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
There's finally enough daylight to start commuting by bike.

I was gonna start Monday. :-(

I guess I should wash the car this afternoon and that will guarantee precipitation.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 2, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
khanom, glad to see you post-- was wondering about yr situation. i'm more familiar with rights situ on the 108 corridor than i am on the upper 120. A number of folks on 108 are going to lose water because downstream owners have priority.

and yeah, "fire season" now runs January 1 to December 31.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Feb 2, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
I think those firefighters around the mountains of the LA Basin and San Diego, in the chaparral, have had year round fire seasons for a number of years. Only now it might be getting even worse, earlier, larger, more intense.

I thought I read somewhere the Sierra Nevada Range was averaging somewhere around 12% snowpack. Whoa man, might be another severe fire season in the mountains.

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 2, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
hey there say, khanom... wow, as to this:

But to be honest what worries me far more is the fire season... last year's never ended, which means it only gets worse from here.

will sure be praying for 'safe passage through the season'...
matt was hoping a lot of the trees that were still green inside would come back, but--no rains came... :(

hope your crops will adjust to your timers, etc...

say, also, email me... :) please...



nice to see rain reports, etc, from nita, and kunlun_shan...
:)
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Feb 2, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
Randisi that is an excellent question.

In many areas of low land CA, and especially such as the Great Basin (Nevada), as Ron A. pointed out, with no new grass growth, in the brush fuels (sage), it will likely be a slow season (unless it gets windy). That fuel type needs grass or wind to carry the fire from bush to bush. It is truly spectacular how intense those brush fires can be under the right conditions.

Move up to the chaparral fuels, a continuous, dense, volatile fuel, such as that in which the Granite Mt Hotshots perished (RIP) and it's much less dependent on new or old grass. A lot of Socal is like that, it burns hot, fast and regrows quick after a burn.

(Edit to add: That is why the firefighters in those regions hit those fires so hard on initial attack - with airtankers, helicopters, hand crews, bulldozers and engines - to keep the fire from gaining heat).

In the Ponderosa / Spruce / Conifer forests up higher, fire is typically carried more by pine needles and accumulated duff material. At first they burn much slower, with a deeper heat. In drought conditions with the right wind, right fuel conditions temps humidity and who knows what else, they roar to life.

I've already been reading about smoke reports from the Rim Fire (one of the largest fires in recorded CA history started burning sometime August 2013 around Yosemite NP). The pilots I talked to on the incident spoke about this possibility due to the size of the fire.

Anyway, whatever moisture we do get, will melt quicker (warmer daytime temps / higher angle of sun / longer days) and do less to wet down all those huge heavy logs lying on the forest floor which surely are as dry as newspaper.

Hope that helps.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Feb 2, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
One thing you could do is pile the dead brush, concentrate it in areas as far from infrastructure as possible. (Edit: Create your own wide fuel break).

It looked awful brown when I flew from Portersville to Oregon in a helo early last August. And all the reservoirs and rivers appeared to be so empty.

We shall see what the climate has in store for us the next few months, winter isn't over yet.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 2, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
There's been a dearth of activity just north of the equator all winter.

In the last couple of winters there's been a strong westward flow of evaporatively derived moisture that rides along the equator and then gets picked up north over Bangladesh and Indochina and eventually becomes the pineapple express.

Not much has been going on along the equator all winter. (maybe it's been too cool?)

http://www.eldoradocountyweather.com/satellite/ssec/wide-view-us-pacific-asia-sat.html
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 2, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
There will have to be some serious decisions about what kind of ag is suitable for California. Things that need lots of water, such as alfalfa or rice, should not be grown there.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 4, 2014 - 12:36am PT
"Seriously."
So to the point, DMT. Peruse.

A few months back I took a drive out to Planada and the Chowchilla as it empties into the Plains of the San Joaquin.

I got a little in-Flamed.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1954729&msg=2195935#msg2195935
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Feb 4, 2014 - 12:50am PT
pretty good taco truck in Planada,
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Feb 4, 2014 - 01:15am PT
It made me sick to see green grass and wet sidewalks in San Bernardino and Redlands year round. I'm from BC and for the last 30 years we have had summer watering restrictions even though we have more water than you. I have no pity for California right now. Waste not want not.
Sredni Vashtar

Social climber
The coastal redwoods
Feb 4, 2014 - 02:27am PT
I agree, all the overvwatering to keep so Cal lawns green is ridiculous. Angelinos are in denial they live in a desert clime
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Feb 4, 2014 - 02:41am PT
In years like this we in California are almost completely dependent on stored ground water. The water table is like a bank that had large deposits in the past till it was full. Now we have been spending it as fast as possible with only a few deposits so the bank is very low. Really, we could require that every drop taken from the water table has to be repaid with interest, just like any other bank. That would be the conservative thing to do.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 4, 2014 - 03:01am PT
It's amazing how much we depend on groundwater when things dry up.

The conversation we had the other day in Reinero's while the Super Bore bore on was enlightening and I'm glad that I finally met a guy I've wanted to know these many years since moving back to town.

His name is Ed Mitchell and is a professional well driller with a sterling conscience. We need plenty of men who think like he does, uses his pull to get the right things done, and is really more concerned than ever, now he's retired, with the problems of groundwater pumping and levels lowering, etc.

He said that when one large rancher, drilling for a 450 hp turbine, will eat up the supply for the surrounding ranches and farms for miles by going deeper, sucking up water they can't reach with shallow wells, and these suckers (my epithet) get away with it and then turn around and sell it to the neighbors.

He's done it himself, as he's a business man, but at the same time he is on the MID board and has been for years, helping to direct them away from this policy, or so he implied. I do know he is one of the smartest guys I've ever heard say ANYTHING because he is as articulate as Ed Hartouni or even Bridwell.

Cheers. Adam's Ale. The very best.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 4, 2014 - 03:16am PT
Recent news in the McClatchy papers.

http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/01/31/3743403/california-drought-produces-thirst.html

Rep. David Valadao: "Families and farmers alike are not receiving the water they need to meet their basic, everyday needs."

"Sen. Dianne Feinstein indicated Friday she will introduce her own California water bill early next week. Some significant differences will separate the House and Senate versions, leading either to eventual compromise or ceaseless finger-pointing."

Rep. Devin Nunes: "The time for talk is over. It's time for the Senate to join us in providing critical assistance to the people of California."

"Politically, the House bill divides the state."

Ceaseless blather
I would rather
Chain the lawyers
To the bottom of the bay.
Any day.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Feb 4, 2014 - 03:43am PT
I'm from BC and for the last 30 years we have had summer watering restrictions even though we have more water than you. I have no pity for California right now. Waste not want not.

Tooth, I'm from BC too, as you know. I see the same behaviour in California and Canada. People let the kitchen tap run while doing whatever. Very little awareness re. water conservation.

The summer before last in Revelstoke (BC), the town was literally about to run out of (treated) water, because some people were letting their sprinklers run 24/7. City workers had to drive around and turn off outside taps. That sparked an ongoing debate as to whether the town should install water meters and charge for useage. A lot of people in BC, my parents included, think water should be free, no matter how much one uses.

If only being Canadian solved the problem... plus we have the tar sands...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 4, 2014 - 03:53am PT
As far as cities go, I'm an advocate of pricing that encourages good practices.

For example, in my town, LA, the lowest rate for water use, tier 1, is 68 HCF/63 days. Each HCF is 748 gallons....or 807 gal/day.

The first tier usage for each meter is calculated based on lot size, temperature zone, and household size.

My actual usage is 5 HCF, which works out to 59 gal a day.

I am perhaps somewhat radical in my usage, but the average is 127 gal/per capita/day.

In my mind, the tier 1 should be around 70 gal, and the rate should be REDUCED. The next tier should run up to 102 gal (the recommended 20% cut), and be about the same. Above 102, lets say to 200, double the current price.
Above 200, quadruple the current price. Above 300, 10x the current price.

If idiots want to water their cement, fine. Let them pay through the nose for it, and fund the cost of expensive water sources.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 4, 2014 - 11:59am PT
between 70 and 80% of all water in the state goes to ag. much of that water is delivered at far-below-market-value by taxpayer subsidies.

the only urban areas with water deficiencies are those who are lined up behind ag users.

if we charged water based on cost, most of california agriculture would collapse tomorrow. if we charged water by market price, the entire state would collapse.

urban users are basically the only users in the state who pay anything like cost or market-based rates for their water.

the problem is that water is vastly over-allocated. the new acreas of almonds/walnuts/apricots in that article that mouse linked, are making things rapidly worse, because much of that new plantation is mining groundwater. as a result, we now have a 1200 square mile subsidence zone in the san joaquin valley. most of the sacramento valley subsided years ago, and continues.

and now eastern contra costa is sinking fast.

LA-- and the entire MWD in SOCal, represent one of the most responsible groups of water useres in the entire state.

southern san joaquin represents the least responsible group of water users in the state. botof the current proposal-- devin/nunes and brown, propose we provide more subsidized water to the lower san joaquin. that is to say, at the moment, we have a complete vaccuum of political leadership. i foresee no change in that situation.

water is already vastly overallocated in this state, and water conservation by residential users isnt going to do anything more than scrape the tip of that iceberg.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 4, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
Is the problem with almonds that they are being planted on acreage that wasn't previously farmed, and thus increasing water use, or that almonds use more water than other crops that were previously planted there (which doesn't make too much sense, I'd think trees used less water).
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 4, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Is the problem with almonds that they are being planted on acreage that wasn't previously farmed, and thus increasing water use, or that almonds use more water than other crops that were previously planted there (which doesn't make too much sense, I'd think trees used less water).

it's both. almonds esp in the last 10 yrs are going into what used to be rangeland. look at all the new ones going in there outside oakdale-- many of them obvious from the 120. as small ranchers go under, the land gets rezoned or sold off for orchard land. 80% of those almonds are going to export markets.

but almonds (and most other trees) also use more water than most row crops because they have to be watered year round. row crops that fallow are watered only in season. and almond tree takes 3-4 years, typically, to fruit. that means each new tree is going to get watered year-round for 3-4 years before it even produces its first cash crop.

there's no fallowing of orchards. until you've run out of water or the almond boom is over, and which point you tear them all out and put in the next market chaser.

almonds are all or nothing. spinach (for instance) lets you plant, water, harvest, then fallow. even if you're alternating row crops ( a common practice), most fields will have down seasons when the taps get turned off. it also gives you more flexibility during drought years.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 7, 2014 - 12:50am PT
some great and learned discussion!

water is already vastly overallocated in this state, and water conservation by residential users isnt going to do anything more than scrape the tip of that iceberg.

An interesting point of view, with a lot of truth, for the State as a whole.
But not necessarily for the city involved. For LA, for example, a significant cut in usage would move the city much closer to a situation where the city moves away from needing distant water sources. The less is needed, the easier it is.

It seems like for the State, the only way forward is through serious regulation of agricultural practices, particularly drawing of groundwater.

How feasible that is, I've no idea.
Sredni Vashtar

Social climber
The coastal redwoods
Feb 7, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
woot, we's gots anuvva storm comin' in, winter storm 'Orion' aka some rain n snow. its been damp here on the insular peninsula for a few days now, can I hand wash my unimog this summer, hose my acres of tarmac drive and flush my 1.7 gallon toilet?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 7, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
a significant cut in usage would move the city much closer to a situation where the city moves away from needing distant water sources.

i don't know what you mean by this-- there's no conceivable future (short of free and easy desalinization) in which LA could dispense with the OV-LA Aqueduct.

All the hype about low-flow toilets is just that-- most residential water goes to landscaping. You could drastically cut DWP and MWD water demand simply by banning non-native grass lawns.

I'm all for water conservation, but most of the reporting on this topic-- and most of the posting I see in threads like this or hear in conversation, even among educated folks-- is appallingly misinformed. THe water crisis in Cali is largely a problem with subsidized water for agribusiness, and there will be nothing but tears until Californians and their elected representatives deal with reality.

The individual cities that are going to be hard-hit are places in the coastal ranges and SIerra foothills who are junior rights holders without access to big out-of-basin transfers. Having Angelenos stop flushing the toilet does nothing for genuine water scarcity in the areas where it's dire.
AlanDoak

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 7, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
Barker Dam had water in it on my last visit to Jtree. Your welcome LA.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 7, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
Klk writes:

"You could drastically cut DWP and MWD water demand simply by banning non-native grass lawns."



How is that possible?

Every time I get a good carpeting of native vegetation going, The County comes by and issues me a "Weed Abatement Notice".
John M

climber
Feb 7, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
not sure I agree with removing land from ag. Perhaps the solution is to do more to promote less wasteful irrigation techniques, and perhaps regulate what crops can be grown. One way to regulate would be to charge the true price for water delivery.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 7, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
Rice. Why do we need to grow rice in CA? How about growing it in the naturally flooded/wet parts of the world? Seems beyond silly. But I'm not a farmer, so maybe there's a good reason.

There are weird anomalies in groundwater basins. In the Box Springs/Moreno Valley area (Perris Valley south watershed) the groundwater table is rising at between 6"-3' per year over the last few decades. Over near Lake Perris, it's only at 10-12' below surface at points.

MoVal used to be ag lands, and some of the local entities used to pump groundwater for their water supply. Those wells have been out of service for about 30-50 years and supply is now imported, and the ag irrigation pumping is almost entirely gone. With the lack of pumping, recharge off lake perris, and inflow from the Box Springs area, this little patch of IE desert is going to be a lake in another 20 years.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 7, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
Tx, Khanom. The 2 key pts in that Hansen presentation neatly summarize what everyone in the field has known for years:

First, nn all of the arid west, beef production is the single-largest user of water. That's where the alfalfa goes. folks usually cite the 2600 gallons of water for each 6 oz steak metric. In Cali, alfalfa now also appears to be going to the new megadairies in the southern San Joqauin.

Second, on a statewide basis, no amount of conservation or tunneling will be enough, even if we aren't (as Lynn INgram and many others believe) in a mega-drought. Ag land is going to have to come out of production.

And that's why the almonds are such a ripe example of the corruption of our water distribution in the state. Virtually all of that almond use on that chart has emerged in the last ten years. Almonds have been going in-- often on land that wasn't getting irrigated-- during the height of a drought. That can happen only because 1. CVP and some of the SWP water subsidizes growers (no one pays anything like market for the water) and 2; folks are water mining. Growers are rapidly pumping the groundwater out of the Sac and SJ valleys in order to export almonds to China.

The acceleration of subsidence in the last ten years correlates almost perfectly with the increase in almond pumping in those areas. We are literally paying farmers to pump the Sac and Sj dry, then we're paying again to fix the infrastructure-- including the publicly subsidized irrigation canals --getting damaged by subsidence. And we're going to pay again when the next flood hits with more damage and greater floodzone because the ground is lower.

I'm not crazy about the way the US has chosen to subsidize obesity through subsidizing irrigation water for alfalfa and massive subsidies for corn for beef feed. But unlike almonds, alfalfa is a row crop and can easily get trimmed back during dry years.

And I don't have any problem, in principle, with pasture watering. I'm more than happy to subsidize open range preservation, especially of foothill and coastal range grasslands. I have no difficulty mounting strong historical and environmental arguments in defense of pasturage in many places in the state.

I also don't have any problem, in principle, with subsidizing, even directly, small family farms and ranches. Frankly, there's no other choice. If farming were actually subjected to the free market, it would disappear, and we'd all starve. The problem is that we are currently directly incentivizing black-market profiteering and rent-seeking of the kind that is dramatically increasing the public debt and putting state infrastructure at risk.

Meanwhile, the nightly news tells you to quit flushing yr toilet.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 7, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
Barker Dam had water in it on my last visit to Jtree. Your welcome LA.

Don't know what the water level in Barker dam has to do with LA.
Barker dam has periodically gone dry and refilled several times in the last forty years.

It's now permanently dry because about five years ago the dam developed a leak.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 7, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
Meanwhile, the nightly news tells you to quit flushing yr toilet.
I woke up at 4 a.m. this morning with this thought in mind. When I was little during the 70s, they'd tell to put a brick in the toilet, which is almost laughable.

Some thoughts:

I had posted a while up about water use for alfalfa, which is just ludicrous. I had a buddy from college who lived in El Centro, which is pretty much the desert east of San Diego. He said if he ever dropped out of school (he did sadly), that the only thing to do there would be to make alfalfa cubes. From that time onward, I never understood the purpose of growing out there, especially such a water intensive crop.

On a drive back from Vegas a couple of weeks ago, I heard a news story about that city's water use. While the fountains and pools on the Strip seem an excessive use of water, it only accounts for 3% of the city's water use, though 75% of its revenue. 70% of the city's water use goes to suburban lawns.

In LA they've started a program where they pay homeowners $2 a square foot to replace their lawns with a water wise alternative. While that's attractive, most are not going to want to go through the hassle and cost of replacing a lawn, especially since the rebate would not completely cover your costs.

Frankly, if the drought continues as it has, I see politics playing almost no significant role in reducing use. Just too much money and too many interests at stake. Until the State summons the will to appoint a water czar or some similar post with the authority to mandate limits and fine for overuse, everyone will just be arguing about what to do until there's very little left. People may not like dead lawns, but they'd prefer that to being told the have limited allotments for bathing, drinking, etc.

nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 7, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
February is looking so much better....Lassen Park, 6,700ft.
john hansen

climber
Feb 7, 2014 - 06:40pm PT

Pineapple Express


http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/nepac/flash-avn.html
John M

climber
Feb 7, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
It won't be enough to end the drought, but I'm sure happy about this current storm. Poor Badger Pass though. It looks like the snow levels are really going to rise. Over 8000 feet tonight. I hope that they are wrong about that

Let it snow at Badger…

Badger Pass Webcam

http://www.yosemitepark.com/badger-webcam.aspx

nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Feb 7, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
Moosie

Looks like the workers are getting it ready to... open tomorrow!!!!..cool.

Great News! We now have enough snow to open Badger Pass Yosemite Ski Area for the winter season starting tomorrow, Saturday February 8th! All downhill runs will be open with the Eagle, Bruin and Badger chair lifts. Badger Pass rentals, dining, sports shop and Ski School will all be available for a fun day of skiing in Yosemite. Grab your skis, board, boots and come on up to Badger Pass! More info here: http://bit.ly/eosWe2



Pretty cool especially since it looked like this on~ Jan 6th
Jan 30th..

dumping rain all day here in C-Town...
Hi Moosie, good to hear from you..(-;....Is Karl in India?

Fatdad, Durning the 70's drought, no showers were allowed at my parents house, only baths. The bath water was bailed and used for the garden veggies and flowers.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 7, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
yeah chaz, co, city and homeowner assoc. requirements for lawns are one of the biggest problems in urban areas.

all the midwesterners who moved to california and brought their lawn fetishes with them. worse now, because over the course of the last century, americans have grown especially found of imported grasses that are watered right up to the edge of dying in order to get that particular shade of green that scott & co. hold out as the ideal.
John M

climber
Feb 7, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
Hey Nita, cross country has been open for the last week. Just checked the website and it says Badger Opens tomorrow. I sure hope that it snows instead of rains.

http://www.yosemitepark.com/badgerpass.aspx
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 8, 2014 - 11:36am PT
good news on badger.

let's hope this will let dodge ridge open. they're pushing their drop-dead date.

sjmn has a useful graphic comparing urban per capita water use per resident. it's a lot rawer than it looks-- the palm springs numbers are badly skewed, for instance --but shows the drastic variation by district.

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25090363/california-drought-water-use-varies-widely-around-state?source=rss
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 16, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
The President was out here last week, preaching how we need to re-think the way we use water.

Then, to demonstrate, he went golfing in Palm Desert.

No problem here, eh Mr President.

Instead of using water to grow food, it's best used to irrigate grass in a desert.

He should have found one of those mostly-dirt links courses to play on.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2014 - 08:37am PT
Okay, I was almost going to start a new thread concerning this issue (and several other related issues) but this thread will suffice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26124989

NB Be warned, some of the photos are "scary", disconcerting in the least.


California drought: Why some farmers are 'exporting water' to China

While historic winter storms have battered much of the US, California is suffering its worst drought on record. So why is America's most valuable farming state using billions of gallons of water to grow hay - specifically alfalfa - which is then shipped to China?

The reservoirs of California are just a fraction of capacity amid the worst drought in the state's history.

"This should be like Eden right now," farmer John Dofflemyer says, looking out over a brutally dry, brown valley as his remaining cows feed on the hay he's had to buy in to keep them healthy.

In the dried-up fields of California's Central Valley, farmers like Dofflemyer are selling their cattle. Others have to choose which crops get the scarce irrigation water and which will wither.

"These dry times, this drought, has a far-reaching impact well beyond California," he said as the cattle fell in line behind his small tractor following the single hay bale on the back.

"We have never seen anything like this before - it's new ground for everybody."

California is the biggest agricultural state in the US - half the nation's fruit and vegetables are grown here.

Farmers are calling for urgent help, people in cities are being told to conserve water and the governor is warning of record drought.

But at the other end of the state the water is flowing as the sprinklers are making it rain in at least one part of southern California.

The farmers are making hay while the year-round sun shines, and they are exporting cattle-feed to China.

The southern Imperial Valley, which borders Mexico, draws its water from the Colorado river along the blue liquid lifeline of the All American Canal.

It brings the desert alive with hundreds of hectares of lush green fields - much of it alfalfa hay, a water-hungry but nutritious animal feed which once propped up the dairy industry here, and is now doing a similar job in China.

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law.

"It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west."

Manuel Ramirez from K&M Press is an exporter in the Imperial Valley, and his barns are full of hay to be compressed, plastic-wrapped, packed directly into containers and driven straight to port where they are shipped to Asia and the Middle East.

"The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China. We started five years back and the demand for alfalfa hay has increased," he says.

"It's cost effective. We have abundance of water here which allows us to grow hay for the foreign market."

Cheap water rights and America's trade imbalance with China make this not just viable, but profitable.

"We have more imports than exports so a lot of the steamship lines are looking to take something back," Glennon says. "And hay is one of the products which they take back."

It's now cheaper to send alfalfa from LA to Beijing than it is to send it from the Imperial Valley to the Central Valley.

"We need to treat the resource as finite, which it is," he says. "Instead, most of us in the states, we think of water like the air, it's infinite and inexhaustible, when for all practical purposes it's finite and it's exhaustible."

Piles of hay behind 'Product for China only' sign
Alfalfa farmer Ronnie Langrueber believes he's doing his bit to help the American economy out of recession.

"In my opinion it's part of the global economy," he says, adding that only a fraction of the hay goes to China.

"We have to do something to balance that trade imbalance, and alfalfa is a small part we can do in the Imperial Valley to help that."

He believes the whole "exporting water" argument is nonsense - that all agricultural exports contain water - and that there are few better uses for it.

"Is it more efficient to use water for a golf course for the movie stars?" Langrueber said.

"Or is it more efficient for farmers to use it to grow a crop and export it and create this mass economic engine that drives the country?"

Japan, Korea and the United Arab Emirates all buy Californian hay. The price is now so high that many local dairy farmers and cattle ranchers can't afford the cost when the rains fail and their usual supplies are insufficient.

But they have to buy what they can.

Cattle rancher John Dofflemyer certainly sees it as exporting water abroad - he resents the fact hay is sent overseas.

Hay trucks are a common sight heading north up the road from the Imperial Valley - despite the high prices, the cattle farmers have to buy what they can.

Even with recent rains in northern California there's still a critical shortage of water.

Drought is often an excuse for politicians to build dams or reduce environmental controls, but it's no long-term fix.

In those places awash with water - where global trade distorts the local market - decisions need to be made by those without something to gain.

That's where it gets even more complicated.

ENDS

So again, is it a case of big agribusiness sucking up the water or is it more like hundreds of small-time farmers?

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Feb 19, 2014 - 11:45am PT
^^^^^^

I can tell you're not in it.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 19, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
There is no drought in the dryest desert, the Imperial Valley. As the primary water rights holder to 3.85 million acre-feet, which is most of California's 4.4 million acre-feet per year from the Colorado river, the desert farmers are unaffected by the reality of most. $20 per acre foot is the delivered price that grows the alfalfa.

Cadillac Desert by Reisner is a superb book.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 19, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
Cadillac Desert is a terrific book. It is somewhat ominous though in that it very clearly discusses the West's limited water resources over the next couple of decades, which is really just a nice way of saying there will not be enough to go around given our current consumption.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 19, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
I wouldn't be so quick to assign a California (western U.S.) drought to global warming or even climate change. Drought IS THE NORM here. It has been for a long time. Global warming might induce climate change here in California but projection models have been fuzzy on what sort of change... warmer, wetter winters, perhaps. Warmer drier winters not as likely but either way the projections are not solid.

yeah, none of the folks I know and respect who are top-tier climate/earth science researchers are eager to point to anthropogenic warming as the cause of any particular storm or drought (aside from those involving rising sea levels). that said, every major model i've seen for southwest regions (including most of cali) have projected increased volatility but warmer and drier averages. and i don't know anyone who believes that having more carbon in the atmosphere is going to make the next megadrought better than the last one.

the Obama photo-op tour was really painful to watch. Amateur hour climate change speech followed by photo-ops of him golfing on subsidized lawns.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 19, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
the one way that global warming (and anthropogenic warming) interact with the drought is, ironically, the increased chances of catastrophic flooding.

warmer (and more temp-volatile) storm events are strongly correlated with past catastrophic flooding. and the higher sea levels produced by the polar ice cap melt are putting more pressure both on potential catastrophic flood events and on lowered levels of water in the bay and the delta.

higher sea levels mean more salt water intrusion farther up river, as well as more water available for flood events.

barnette, das, and dettinger have been the leaders in doing that research-- it's really sobering. so far as norcal specifically goes, i don't think anyone claims to have a predictive model that can focus down to that fine of a level, but most of the papers on sierra nevada is actually on the northern end because that's where most of the water comes from.

have you read lynn's book? she's the major figure on recovering and periodizxing the mega-droughts, and the new book is the best review of the lit that i know. it's a popular book, not a scholarly one, but folks can chase the bibliography.

http://www.amazon.com/The-West-without-Water-Droughts/dp/0520268555

our post-literate friends can watch lectures online. time-consuming, less detail, not the way i'd go. but the entire 2007 colloquium on water was youtubed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10TALq2Kirc
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 19, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
Cattle rancher John Dofflemyer certainly sees it as exporting water abroad - he resents the fact hay is sent overseas.

You wonder if he would be as resentful, if he discovered that he could double his profit by selling overseas.

This is a good thing, having a robust export market. It is good for the economy, and it is good for the country.

Maybe Dofflemyer should consider growing alfalfa instead of beef, which I understand is considerably more water intensive to grow.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 19, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
which is most of California's 4.4 million acre-feet per year from the Colorado river, the desert farmers are unaffected by the reality of most. $20 per acre foot is the delivered price that grows the alfalfa.

I was at a meeting of LADWP this morning, in which the cost of that same water to the city of LA was quoted as $862 per acre foot.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 19, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
LADWP has to pump their water over a really big hill (more than once) and then treat it to drinking water standards.

CVWD just has to let it run downhill and the only treatment is to kill the Quagua mussels. A good chunk of the Imperial Valley is well below sea level.

In fact the Salton Sea owes it's existence to a flood event+earthquake induced break in the canal back in 1905

(then there's the LADWP, union embezzlement of tens of millions, maintenance of an extensive ancient distribution network, etc.)

Apples and oranges.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 19, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
Yah,

I killed the Quagua mussels

(for MWD too)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 19, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
TGT is in the business of watering down the truth...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 20, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Mr Milktoast writes:

"I know if built they will be used to divert more water to SoCal and that water will be consumed to capacity."





The naïve part of me wants to think that one day maybe the water supply will catch up to the demand, but I'm afraid Mr Milktoast's observation is a lot closer to reality.

The first drought I remember was in '77. I was 14. We got a kick out of "if it's brown, flush it down - if it's yellow, let it mellow". I was living in Fontana ( CA ) then, and the population there in '77 was 24,000.

We endured a hot summer ( A/C was something damn few houses in '77 had, and ours wasn't one of them ) of warm pots full of piss, only clearing when someone crapped. It wasn't pleasant, but we were saving water, and that's all that mattered.

Now, I have a low-flow toilet that requires three flushes to clear a #2, and a low-flow shower head that more than doubles the time I need to get a shower. My truck hasn't been washed since it was in the Pacific Northwest, where it rains more-or-less constantly. I've let the lawn die, and go to dirt. I never wash the driveway with water, even though my goat pisses all over it every day. I go outside to piss, because using X-quarts of water to wash a pint of piss down to the septic tank makes less sense than simply walking out to where the septic tank is buried, and pissing there. So my toilet only gets flushed three times a day ( for the #2 in the morning ).

So today, after a lifetime of conserving water, what do I see? Right down the street, where once stood a vacant lot filled with weeds and rocks, there's now a housing development going in. Big billboard, reading "KB Homes. Here Comes The Neighborhood!" Several dozen houses, ALL of them hooking into the same water supply we've spent the last few decades saving and conserving. The same water supply for years we were told wasn't enough for those of us who were already here.

When we were conserving water, I assumed it was so I would have enough for later. Not for K.B. Homes to show up, buy low, sell high, f*#k everything up, and move on.

Remember I mentioned living in Fontana? In '77, there were 24,000 people living there. Then the Big Drought Of '77 hit, so we conserved water. Let the yellow mellow, and all that. Now, Fontana has a population over 200,000! That's right, a better than eight-fold increase, with no new sources of water. We weren't letting the piss stew without flushing so there would appear to be enough water to justify jamming tens of thousands of new people where they have no business being, but that's that what happened.

Today, after 35+ years of finding new ways to conserve water, I'm out of new things to do. This current drought will not alter my water use at all, because after a lifetime of cutting back, I'm through trying.

Because I live by myself, on a large ( five acre ) lot, my water use base-line, allotment, or whatever it's called, is about ten times what I'm using right now. Two showers, three flushes ( for one #2 ), and washing one pot, one pan, and one plate a day doesn't add up to a hell of a lot of water use.

Late last year, Governor Brown was crowing about all the new housing starts, after a few years of almost no new houses being built in California. Where the f*#k did he think they were going to get water? From like a flying unicorn, or something? Maybe he thought Jesus would bring us water for all those new houses. Or Obama.

Now, Brown says we need to conserve. Why? So we can cram even more people and more houses into an already depleted environment? Because that's exactly what happens when we behave like Good Germans, and conserve water. Every time. Without fail

Someone in government needs to have the balls to stand up to K.B. Homes and the rest, and say "the god damn boat is full here, go build somewhere else". And it should have been done forty years ago. Until then, I'll follow their lead, and keep planting avocados ( 40 new trees in 2013! More than that are planned for 2014 ).

I'll be re-planting the lawn this year, too. The dogs like it ( and they miss it now that it's gone ), its monetary cost will be small, and besides, grass in the desert has the Presidential Stamp Of Approval.


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 20, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
Chas said:
"Late last year, Governor Brown was crowing about all the new housing starts, after a few years of almost no new houses being built in California. Where the f*#k did he think they were going to get water? From like a flying unicorn, or something? Maybe he thought Jesus would bring us water for all those new houses. Or Obama."

That's a funny line!!! In fact, yesterday governor Brown announced a $678,000 upcoming bill for investment into water conservation (perhaps it's mostly spent on new ads that pitch the new motto: "if it's yellow and not jello walk away, if it's brown, don't frown") and it won't cost you a nickel. See? Jesus is listening and you get helped No Charge, voters already approved the borrowing it just wasn't borrowed yet. See? Free money?


http://www.kcra.com/news/gov-brown-to-announce-emergency-drought-legislation/24558278
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
Remember I mentioned living in Fontana? In '77, there were 24,000 people living there. Then the Big Drought Of '77 hit, so we conserved water. Let the yellow mellow, and all that. Now, Fontana has a population over 200,000! . . . Today, after 35+ years of finding new ways to conserve water, I'm out of new things to do. This current drought will not alter my water use at all, because after a lifetime of cutting back, I'm through trying. . . . I'll . . . keep planting avocados . ... I'll be re-planting the lawn this year, too. The dogs like it ( and they miss it now that it's gone ), its monetary cost will be small, and besides, grass in the desert has the Presidential Stamp Of Approval.

All fine with me, except that even with all the new urban populations, more than 70% of Cali water goes to agriculture. There are individual water districts where residential growth is an issue, but statewide, new housing starts and pops aren't the problem.

The problem is farming. We spend 70-80% of our water subsidizing 3-7% of our economy.

Are you MWD? I'm fine with you planting avos or whatever. If you're MWD, you're paying 5 times what corporate almond growers pay for the same water. If we just charged agribusiness the same rates we charge urban/residential users, the "drought" would melt. There's more than enough water in Cali for residential use up to and including old-skool Fontana big lots with some avos and maybe a chicken coop.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:12pm PT
The orange groves were here before the suburbs.
Southern California was already overdeveloped by 1960.

Why should the latecomers usurp the rights of those that were here first?

Just because you outnumber the farmers?

The cost structure of a Semitropic, Imperial Irrigation District etc, bear no resemblance to MWD's

the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
I was reading on a fire fighter forum earlier today and one of the weather folks was suggesting that next week it looks as if the SoCal area may get a little precipitation. Not enough to put much of a dent into the drought, but should ease fire concerns for a couple weeks if it occurs.

Check out the US Drought Monitor for a startling pic of CA (and much of the Western US):

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
Everyone knows water conservation efforts never work. Just another one of Jerry's pipe dreams. Can one of you smart anti-science types explain this graph to me... it has numbers and lines and stuff on it, so it is very confusing...

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Good illustration of a lose-lose scenario there, Weschrist.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
The orange groves were here before the suburbs. Why should the latecomers usurp the rights of those that were here first? Just because you outnumber the farmers?

If Chaz is MWD< that's actually incorrect, at least partly-- much of the westwisde SJ went in later. Most of the almonds have been last 20 years.

So far as rights go, sure-- you want us to maintain the rights structure we have now w/o modification. That's fine, so long as we quit subsidizing water exporting and speculation.

Charge all rights holders the same per acre foot. Not a free market, but a lot closer than what we have now. Charge the Resnicks and Paramount the same as we're charging MWD and Chaz.

Then step back and watch the drought melt.

Even an egalitarian cost structure would still include a huge urban/residential subsidy for farming. I'm not against subsidizing certain kinds of farming. It's just that our current method is insane.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
+1 million people accompanied by a REDUCTION in water use is not a lose lose... unless you are a fuking idiot.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
Everyone knows water conservation efforts never work. Just another one of Jerry's pipe dreams. Can one of you smart anti-science types explain this graph to me... it has numbers and lines and stuff on it, so it is very confusing...

well, i'm not an anti-science type, but i'll take a wild stab.

that's a bit of agit-prop.

most of the reductions with pop growth come from conversion of ag land to urban/residential. as pop grows, so deos demand for real estate. residential property is vastly more valuable than ag property, with occasional exceptions. urban/residential also uses way less water. so pops rise, ag land goes out of producetion, and total water use remains stagnant or declines.

urban/residential conservation can make a huge difference in individual districts. since most urban areas spend about 50% of their water on landscaping, there are significant savings to be had within urban districts. but those efforts represent a statistically insignificant chunk of statewide water use.

put another way, that chart is almost entirely useless.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
Makes sense. Still a net reduction in water use. All farm land should be converted to suburbia... resistance is futile.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:35pm PT
All farm land should be converted to suburbia... resistance is futile.

yeah, never thought i'd say this, but we need more chaz.

and less mega-dairy and corporate almonds.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
If those are the options, I'm voting to send Lake Tahoe to SoCal.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Someone in government needs to have the balls to stand up to K.B. Homes and the rest, and say "the god damn boat is full here, go build somewhere else". And it should have been done forty years ago. Until then, I'll follow their lead, and keep planting avocados ( 40 new trees in 2013! More than that are planned for 2014 ).

And there you have it: agriculture is the problem. You conserved water, but you planted trees that have required more water than your home will in 100 years.

How about someone stands up to YOU, and tells you to stop planting?

Oh, because it is your God-Given Right to plant whatever you want, and use as much water as you want, whenever you want. Because it is YOUR land.

In the meantime, the land owned by KB Homes, building a development that will use LESS water than you currently use on your land, should for some reason be told that they should not be able to do what they want with their land?

I say get rid of you and your avocados first.

Oh, and get rid of your ancient inefficient model of toilet for the newer, much better designed ones. The water company will pay you to do it. Or even better, connect to the sewer instead of contaminating the land. Or even better, get a composting toilet.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
ken, commercial agriculture uses all the water.

it's true that the kind of land use chaz says he practices uses more water than, say, a hi-rise apartment with no landscaping. but at the moment, the water conservation jerry brown and others are demanding is going to subsidize corporate ag in the lower san joaquin.

there are good historic and environmental reasons for supporting a mix of large lots with productive landscape-- prolly even including avos as well as veggie gardens -- in metropolitan landscapes. without those chunks of open (and probably irrigated) ground in the urban/metro mix, you have even worse problems.

concrete doesn't absorb water, so you get less water absorption (and aquifer replenishment), worse runoff, and flood problems. without those larger plots of open productive ground and plants, you have no support for the bugs and birds that we need to have other stuff, including productive agriculture. since most urban/residential areas in cali have displaced what used to be seasonal wetlands, bigger lots with veg are the best actionable substitute.

and historically speaking, that kind of landscape use was predominant in the late 19th to late middle 20th century. the kind of landscape that mixes ag/urban/residential use, is something we should encourage in stead of the hard urban/industrial farm nexus we're currently subsidizing.

it's also racially neutral, chaz's inclinations aside. compton used to be (early 1940s) like fontana, lots of small homes with chicken coop ands gardens and maybe a milk cow. many of the new immigrants to cali come from rural areas--- that's the great demographic transition of the last century, country folks forced to move to the metropole. lots of them would like to have decent family gardens and a couple of animals if zoning and the economy allowed.



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
Everyone knows water conservation efforts never work. Just another one of Jerry's pipe dreams. Can one of you smart anti-science types explain this graph to me... it has numbers and lines and stuff on it, so it is very confusing...

A number of people have misinterpreted the graph.

It is NOT a graph of the state, it is a graph of LOS ANGELES.

when we look at LA, or more largely, the South Coast Region, the situation is very different than it is for the State as a whole:

California Department of Water Resources California Water Plan Update 2005, December 2005. http://www.waterplan.water.ca.gov



Note that for this urban region, which includes LA, OC, San Diego, that agriculture only makes up 16% of the usage! 54% of the total is by residential users! (in the slide, "MF" refers to multifamily housing, "SF" to single family housing)
Gene

climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
What is "commercial" and "corporate" agriculture?

Not trolling.

Thanks,
Gene
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:01pm PT
Anybody that actually makes a living, or

Gasp!

a profit at it.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:08pm PT
klk, taking my tongue out of my cheek for a moment, I understand your points, and generally agree.

What I was responding to more, was Chaz's position that he can use all the water that he wants on his land, but someone who owns other land should be held to another standard. We're all in this together.

The one way that I agree with that position is that I think that new construction should incorporate all the engineering advances possible, particularly when they involve little/no cost, or can even save the homeowner many many dollars over the life of ownership. For example, I'd require all new construction to incorporate level I and II graywater capture. I'd require all new homes to incorporate infiltration of 100% of rainwater from a 1" storm.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
ken, no, i didn't misinterpret the graph. it begins in 1970, which was close to a tipping point for urban growth in the inland empire and sd. the stagnation or per capita decline in the graph is mostly a function of ag land getting converted to urban/residential. that growth was partly driven by the completion of stage 1 of the swp.

the graph is a time plot-- what you posted is a recent asynchronous slice-- i don't know the year or source.

and i'm not saying no one should conserve water. in certain distrcits, especially in the sierra and sac valley foothils, there are urban/residential districts in deep, deep trouble that will pull through only with drastic conservations. but in most of those cases, that's because the local water is getting bogarted by older or richer ag users who they and we are subsidizing.



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
Just one more thing to throw into the mix:

Reduced water usage in homes also translates into reduced sewer runoff.

The effect of this conservation can be considerable. In LA, for example, there had been planning for increasing sewer treatment capacity in line with population growth. But something happened.

Conservation.

As a result, that extra capacity did not have to be built, and will not be for the foreseeable future. It has saved having to spend approximately 1 BILLION dollars by the City of LA. True, in the big picture of spending in the state, that is not a lot, but it is a lot for the 4 million ratepayers in LA.
John M

climber
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
Anybody that actually makes a living, or

Gasp!

a profit at it.

sometimes they make a profit because they are subsidized by others.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
What is "commercial" and "corporate" agriculture?

hi gene, that's actually a really good question. tgt's answer, anyone who makes a profit at it, isn't much help. no one in california or any state west of the 100th meridian-- and many fokls east of that-- makes a profit from farming without massive governmental subsidies. west of the 100th meridian, virtually all farming requires irrigation. irrigration requires large-scale political co-operative agreements, massive capital investments in infrastructure, and a variety of other subsidies

i used phrase like "commercial " or "corporate" ag in my posts to separate out folks like the resnicks, (who own paramount farms, in the southern sj, the world's largest almond and pistachio farm, a publicly subsidized megafarm that buys public water at below market rates, exports almonds to china at market rates, and uses the surplus to fund local republican candidates, diane feinstein's re-elections, and the resnick's own plutocrat lifestyle), from folks like chaz who are basically urbanites with a backyard that has avos and maybe veggies or some scruffy horses and chickens.

the reason i use those phrases is because cali ag was the world's first example of industrial ag, and we can't use phrase like "family farm" as easily as we once used them back in kentucky.

most of california's ag production comes from farms of 1,000 acres or more, which regardless of their organization, means publicly subsidized water irrigating luxury crops tended by imported armies of 3rd world landless serfs.

edit--

yeah, ken, both la and the greater mwd have actually been pretty good at water management. that's why chaz is right to be steamed about all the "conservation" bullshit that's about to hit the airwaves. urban/residential users-- who already massively subsidize san joaquin ag-- are being asked to quit flushing the toilet so that the resnicks can buy publicly-subsidized water below market and resell it at market for a profit. i'm not opposed to sending checks to farmers but let's just f*#kin do it.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
klk,

I'll grant you that this stuff begins to get complex.

But some of these towns actually face having to truck water in, because they have no source available much longer.

They can conserve what they have severely, or they can look forward to the prospect of paying 1000 times as much for trucked in water. (based upon the average cost of MWD water of $862 af, compared with $1 million per af for bottled water.

personally, although MWD and LADWP have done a spectacular job of planning, and have abundant supplies (for now), we don't know what is going to happen. I would prefer that we institute some significant changes in rate structures to reward people who are conserving REASONABLY (not the crazies only), and really stick it to the people who are wasting huge amounts of water. I'd settle for it being revenue neutral, but it would be even better to raise capital to accelerate programs that would protect and insulate the region from further drought. The worst that happens is that we free up a lot of water that becomes available for agriculture, which drives the economy of the state.

I think the ag situation is shameful, but it is hard to understand how exactly to fix it.

I'd require farmers to use BMP's in water usage to be eligible for a lower tier rate like they have now, and reserve that tier for farms under 1000 ac. The next tier would be for larger farms that use BMP's, and the highest tier would be for large farms that use bad practices, if any water is left over.

(for the audience BMP=best management practices. Example might be drip irrigation)
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 20, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
KLK writes:

"no one in california or any state west of the 100th meridian-- and many fokls east of that-- makes a profit from farming without massive governmental subsidies."



There are two ways the citrus and avocado farmers where I live get their water:

#1: From Bear Creek in the San Bernardino Mountains, via a 100+-year-old gravity-fed system of pipes and flumes delivering water directly to the groves. This system serves my neighborhood. This system pre-dates the government, and is privately run to this day.

#2: From a well on the grover's property.

( I guess a third way would be a combination of the two )

No one I know irrigates their grove with municipal drinking water. Even if they did, the city water comes half from the Santa Ana River / Mill Creek, and the other half from groundwater via wells. None from any further north than Big Bear.

Massive government subsidies? Where?

There's no way we can use the water from the Sierras here, or water from the Colorado River either, because water will not flow up-hill.
bergbryce

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:13pm PT
I just happened to read a few of these comments and chaz's is an easy one to explain. that's because the farmers you are referring to represent about .00000001% of agricultural production in California. The mega farms that represent the other 99+% lie in places like the Central Valley, Salinas Valley, Inland Empire, etc and all those are entirely dependent upon water that comes from somewhere else and cheaply.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
There's no way we can use the water from the Sierras here, or water from the Colorado River either, because water will not flow up-hill.

chaz, i can't speak to this post, cuz i don't know where yr at. there is a tiny slice of farmers-- who reprsenet even a tinier slice of total ca rpdocution-- not recieving subsidized water and not mining in ways that clusterf*#k the tax[ayers. but they are so small in number that none of us talk about them. yr neighbors might be examples. good on 'em/

again, 70-80% of all water state wide goes to agricultre at subsidized rates. and massively subsidized.

the exceptions are swell-- i'm all for 'em. khanom seems to be one. and one of the reasons i continue to post in these threads to an audience that includes folks who think water runs "downstream" from shasta to la, is that in the current conditions, we are going to see a frickin apocalypse for small ranchers and farmers who represent the old cali lifestyles and who engage in responsible ranching/farming and who help to create the kind of landscape that we need to have a functional democratic order.

longterm, the water is going to go from ag to urban. it's been going that way, the urban folks pay for it, and there's no other imaginable actionable political future.

the problem is that if we continue as we are, in the short term, we stand a real chance of destroying the small farmers, ranchers and mixed use folks. We are increasing the subsidies for folks like the resnicks and other westlands water hogs and encouraging more water mining of the kind that costs taxapyers a jillions more dollars to repair the infrastructure it damages.

geologically speaking, there's no trouble,. what the resnicks are doing is going to stop. but none of us lives in geological time.

if you or your neighbors are mwd, or live in a district that sometimes buys from mwd, some chunk of yr water is getting pumped over the 'tachapis' courtesy of the swp-- indeed, the main reason for the swp was to enable the kind of growth in the inland empire that local drainages and the co river couldn't support.


edit for typing.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
#1: From Bear Creek in the San Bernardino Mountains, via a 100+-year-old gravity-fed system of pipes and flumes delivering water directly to the groves. This system serves my neighborhood. This system pre-dates the government, and is privately run to this day.

#2: From a well on the grover's property.

So what you are saying is a system that captures water off of public land, which would otherwise drain down into public aquifers.

From a well on private property, that accesses water that is NOT below the owner's property, but sucks water in from farther out.

Both are subsidized systems.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 20, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
Look up the history of the Big Bear Lake water system. Tell me where the government subsidised anything.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:41am PT
So what you are saying is a system that captures water off of public land, which would otherwise drain down into public aquifers.
From a well on private property, that accesses water that is NOT below the owner's property, but sucks water in from farther out.
Both are subsidized systems.

I don’t really see how you make the reach to call it subsidy. To subsidize is to support an activity financially.
Here’s the link to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy
To my mind, using the term as you all use it, sounds like a propagandist trick to try and demonize a segment of society so you can justify imposing what you think the social order and water distribution should be.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:16am PT
From your link:

A subsidy is a form of financial or in kind support

To pump water on your property to pump water that is NOT below your property,but from surrounding property, including public property, and to have that be legal, is to subsidize the capture of water that is legitimately yours, with water that is not yours.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:18am PT
Tell me where the government subsidised anything.

The water coming down that stream is coming off of public land, and is public water. The gov't is allowing you to have that water for free. That is a subsidy.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:20am PT
Re: Big Bear water:

Water Demand
Since 2001, the annual water demand has been reduced 30% through an aggressive water conservation effort by the community
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:22am PT
Ken M writes:

"The water coming down that stream is coming off of public land, and is public water. The gov't is allowing you to have that water for free. That is a subsidy."



Not in this instance.

Do your research, and you'll see how wrong your post is.
John M

climber
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:25am PT
Do better research, and you'll see how wrong your post is.

come on Chaz.. just say what you mean. this hunt and peck stuff is for the birds.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 11:18am PT
There's no way we can use the water from the Sierras here, or water from the Colorado River either, because water will not flow up-hill.

Wow, you just insist on keeping that biblical mindset, don't you?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
look closely at the pic, and you can see bluering and the chief canoeing "downstream" to LA, documenting all the major reservoir sites that big government has been hiding form the farmers.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
statewide, urban water users subsidize agricultural water users thourhg a variety of obvious and inobvious ways. the most obvious is the differet pricing of water for urban and ag use: urban users pay way more for state water and federal water than do ag users.

in the numbers i have for (i think) 2005, you can see the disparity: the state water project charged major users in the smaller Westlands districts $30/af. Kern Co Water District paid $45/af.

Folks up north (where the water actually came from) around Feather River, were paying $144/sf. And the water that went to the MWD cost $298/af.

Moreover, urban users bear the bulk of the cost of the project-- because the contractors are paid from property taxes collected statewide, and urban land assess higher than ag land and is more frequently reassessed. THe usual figure folks hand out is that MWD has paid about 2/3 the cost of the SWP, while receiving about a quarter of the water. I haven't run the numbers, but they are in the ballpark of what one would expect, given the structure of the deal.

Moreover, since many of the SWP ag clients have export rights, they can take their 30 or 45 dollar water and then turn around and sell it to folks willing to pay that 298. Or they can take their delivery and simply pump the living crap out of the aquifer and then sell that water at market rates. As they mine that aquifer (California being the only state in the union that doesn't regulate that kind of thing), the Valley floor subsides damaging highways, railroads, buildings, and even the SWP canals that deliver the subsidized water. California taxpayers (mostly urban ones) then pony up more dough to repair the damage that the Valley pumpers have inflicted on the public infrastructure.

The real bonus here is that the Central Valley Project-- and the various Colorado Fed Projects, have traditionally subsidized at much higher rates than the SWP.

The biggest, least responsible, and most recent farmers are precisely the ones we've been subsidizing most heavily.

Jerry Brown is going to tell all the urban users to quit flushing their toilets so that we can continue this kind of thing. There are individual residential districts where conservation can have a huge impact, but statewide, more urban conservation isn't going to have that much effect.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
Thanks for the information klk.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 21, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
A quick look at a topo map, Mr Milktoast, will show why none of that water makes it to where I'm at.

I suppose if they wanted to, they could tap into Lake Silverwood and use that water. Silverwood has sufficient altitude. But that would require transporting it across the Santa Ana River / Mill Creek drainage, and there's no point doing that because S.A.R and M.C provide plenty of water.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
http://mavensnotebook.com/2014/02/21/thist-just-in-reclamation-announces-initial-2014-central-valley-project-water-supply-allocation/
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 21, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
yeah, wes, that giant sucking sound you hear are all those megawells firing up in the valley.

it's going to be a race to the bottom. the big growers are going to compete to sink the deepest jumbo wells as fast as possible because it's tough to imagine a situation where there isn't some kind of pumping moratorium in effect, maybe as early as this fall, if it gets bad enough. residential and small farm/ranches users who depend on well water could get really f*#ked. half of modesto's water comes from wells, and they're competing with a host of new jumbos.

folks driving to yosemite from the bay area can stop outside oakdale and listen to the sound of the ground subsiding-- the stueves were among those bringing in the new jumbo wells to convert all that old rangeland into almond orchards.

a whole ot of folks in westside sierra drainages are going to get shafted, too, because if you live in a place (like a west-side sierra drainage) where the groundwater below your property flows, it gets treated as riparian and you can get denied the right to drill or expand wells. once that water flows down into the valley aquifer, of course, the almond growers have no trouble getting new well permits to suck it all up.

a lot of rural folks in eastern conco and western tuco are going to feel some real pain.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 21, 2014 - 07:52pm PT

HO LEE FUK. My bad. I said $678 thousand bucks upthread. No politician, republican but especially democrat ones, can do a $678,000 project, much too small. I should have said $678 million. Crap, missed a bunch of Zeros. I will admit to voting democrat on multiple occasions, and thus my poor math skills no doubt. Apologies extended.



DMT said: Couchy, that Governor Brown announcement is all President Bush's fault. Hhaha! .....Dingus you bastard, I'm afraid with that well placed blame assessment comment the thread is about to go all global warming and "why republicans are always wrong" here, and thus another 20000 posts will be hitting soon. Real mean bitchy self-righteous acrimonious ones too.

You know, typical politics.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 22, 2014 - 03:41am PT
In some states, you would definitely be. In Utah, you DO NOT own the rainfall that falls on your property, and collecting it will gather you some legal action.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/08/16/man-jailed-for-collecting-rainwater-in-illegal-reservoirs-on-his-property/
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 22, 2014 - 04:15am PT
hey there say, Ken M... wow, as to the rainfall collecting, wow who would have thought... oh my, it just seems so natural... (i am kind of invisioning those old water-barrel type towers--you know, like on the beginging part of that old 'petticoat junction' show that folks used to watch)...

rain barrels, etc...

here, i was just thinking, after my MOM told me of her trip down to santa maria, with my sis-in-law, to see mom's sister:

she said:
"all the hills were bone dry... just bone dry... it was like an ominous bad feeling, seeing that..."

it made me wish all these PILES upon PILES of snow, could 'at melt' drained into tanker trucks to use for crops, or something, :O


i may not be a calif gal, now that i had to move, due to marriage, first (to south texas--where we did see a few sad bits of drought and dying animals) :( AND NOW to michigan, but my heart still 'knows the feel' and has that worry, concern and compassion for 'how it could be'...


well, it is too sad, it seems about not being able to keep rainwater, however, i will go read the article, at the link, IN CASE i am missing a
'key part' (like if that water, needs to flow somewhere else, that it is needed at???? but still ... keeping some, seems so minor??

thanks for sharing...




oh, say, khanom, yep, please email when you see this...
i know you been busy, :)
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
Generalizing about farming in this way is not helpful. You can't get rid of agriculture, so we better figure out how to make it profitable without subsidies -- either financial or environmental.

no one in any of the modern, industrial democracies has worked out a way to make agriculture generally market sustainable. in each of the major developed economies, from western europe to japan, the total number of farms has fallen even as acreage and production have increased-- ag has been industrialized. the same economies of scale that work for wal-mart work for corn or wheat or rice.

california was arguably the world's first ag producer to industrialize. we're number one! the sectors of agriculture in those developed ag economies that have maintained something like a small-producer practice are in sectors that are intensely subsidized and regulated-- dairy in ch and tirol, viticulture in fr and it, etc.

since ag, statewide, uses almost all of the water, there's no way to have a policy discussion without that level of generalization. like all generalization, it is subject to exceptions along the statistical margin-- which is where you and, apparently, chaz's neighbors live.

the majority of folks like that (and you all represent at best a rounding error in calculations of the state's total ag production much less water useage) have traditionally been used as ideological cover for campaigns that deliver directly subsidized water to folks like the resnicks and paramount farms.

to the extent that there is a market-rational niche for small production farming in cali or anywhere else, it is increasingly coming from luxury markets. local, small-producer ag stuff, from beef to kale, has to find consumers willing to pay 5-10x what they'd pay for factory food in a megalomart.

the problem isn't that we can't find a way to make small, family farms work without subsidies, the problem is that we're subsidizing the mega-farms that drive small, local producers to the edge.



klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 22, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
btw, before this gets out of hand, i am not using the verb, "subsidize," the way that Ken M is using it. Ken's definition seems to be a whole lot more expansive than my own.

I use the word "subsidize" specifically to describe the ways in which the State Water Project, the Central Valley Project, and most of the various federal water projects in the lower CO River Basin, as a matter of policy, deliver water to agribusiness at rate that typically run from 2-20% of what urban users are charged for the same water. I also use that verb to describe a variety of related practices that are part of the production and delivery of the water. Again, most of California's water is delivered to agribusiness at rates vastly lower than what urban/residential users pay, and that differences is paid for by urban/residential taxpayers.

The word, "subsidy," the noun, is tougher because some folks want to use it only for direct cash payments. Thus the new farm bill eliminates "subsidies," i.e., eliminated direct cash payments to many farmers, but instead discounted federal crop insurance by the same amount as the former subsidies. That gives cover to agribusiness lobbyists and politicians who want to go on TV and announce that they've ended "subsidies."

There's a jillions of other ways in which federal, state and local govts support or encourage ag. A huge chunk of the research carried out in the UCs, for instance, has been in the service of farming-- one of the reasons we have the viticulture and horticulture we do is because of public investment in that kind of research. Farm BUreau, ag extension, even the Master Gardener program, all could, theoretically, be described as taxpayer support for agriculture. Most folks I know who work in ag econ or ag science or history or whatever aren't looking to shut down those kinds of things, even though many critics of ag would also go on to describe them as "subsidies."

I appreciate Ken thinking broadly about the way that water gets used in arid environments, but I also think that if we dilute "subsidize" we risk losing sight of the basic and actionable issue, which is California's use of public treasure to incentivize water exporting.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 22, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Fair enough.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Feb 22, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
Relax, it's just short term pain necessitating a bigger solution.
We're probably not far from shipping or pipelining Canada's water south to quench the thirst of the American Southwest.
Many of BC rivers are already commodified by being piped through privately owned (and GE financed) "green" energy systems to produce LNG to ship to and burn in China, (They breathe from a separate atmosphere over there).
Word around the campfire is that Site C on the Peace is really about water for the US.
The Campbell Liberals have ensured that BC Hydro is being intentionally bankrupted and likely to be sold to a US energy giant for pennies on the dollar in the very near future.
Plenty of water in BC and the wild salmon won't need it because the Harper Conservatives, DFO and Norwegian multinationals see greater economic value in farmed Atlantic salmon.
The current drought in California will serve as a rationale to hurtle down a road long ago mapped out by the Bureau of Reclamation and Army Corps of Engineers as soon as possible.
Some call it free trade.
Meanwhile, back to the hockey game or American Idol.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 22, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
you might want to call me a irrational market niche

not irrational at all-- just boutique, and i'm a big fan. small-scale production of specialty crops remains viable if folks are really smart about it, but on small and local scales. probably the most market-rational farming current done in california is getting done by the laotian family growing medical cannabis in the backyard in stockton.

but those small specialty ops, like yours, don't scale up easily or efficiently. that's why down in the valley (in california as in france, germany, austria, japan) it's megafarms, monoculture, and economies of scale, aided, here, by subsidized water. and that's why-- according to the most quoted figures-- just 10% of california's farms contribute 90% of total production.

i'm glad you have a good, viable well, and it sounds like you're in a location where you don't have to worry about neighbors with a dozen new jumbos sucking the water out from under you.

saddest day of the year for me, is always the saturday in october of the last farmer's market in sonora.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Feb 22, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
One of the many consequences of the drought is wildfire. I don't have a link, but a source told me that CA has responded to some 500 wildfires over this winter, when in a "typical" winter they may get 25-50 fires. I thought it was grim last summer on the fires, it is looking to be worse this season in CA.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 22, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
perry, i think that although there are prolly water and electric sales likely to happen across the border, you hockey fans are protected by the current political dysfunction in the US. national politics are far too polarized to manage any major new infrastructure projects like a major can-am canal.

i don't get to follow the bc water wars in real time, but i check in periodically and still have friends in van and beyond. yeah, it's a real cluster.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 22, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25201634/california-drought-big-cut-backs-announced-water-that

California drought: Feds say farmers won't get any Central Valley Project water this year

Friday's announcement followed a similar one last month in which state officials announced that there would be zero deliveries from the State Water Project to cities and farms.

The Santa Clara Valley Water District, which has asked 1.8 million people to cut water use 10 percent, will consider expanding that to 20 percent on Tuesday, spokesman Marty Grimes said.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 22, 2014 - 11:58pm PT
Chief should i post pictures of pipe fitters!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 23, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
1. Dude, the WHOLE POINT is small-scale and local. The WHOLE POINT is we don't "scale-up" and become just another mega-corp. The WHOLE POINT is we can feed people just fine and do so without direct (I say for your benefit) subsidies or charging an arm and a leg.

2. I don't grow "speciality" crops. I grow food. I feed people. Regular ordinary working people. They are not rich, they don't give a fuk about "organic" anything, but they do care if something tastes better. Or around here that they can actually get fresh food without driving down the hill. I would say at least 80% of our customers have very limited or fixed incomes. Some of our stuff is more expensive but some of it is actually cheaper than local stores or even, as I mentioned, Costco.

The whole mindset that you need to have 10% of farms producing 90% of the food is the problem. The idea of "get big or get out" in ag is the root of all evil in agriculture. All of it!

A relatively small farm like me, if it's efficient, can feed thousands of people.

So in a nutshell, you are completely wrong. Small-scale ag scales perfectly well! It's just that you need to stop thinking of monolithic farms and start realizing that spreading the load out over more but smaller farms is more secure, provides a better base for competition, provides fresher produce and is far more environmentally sound even without organic production.

that went sideways fast.

are other folks having trouble following my posts? i didn't realize what i was saying was that hard to follow. for a start, i've been trying to defend the kind of farming khanom's doing and have been highly critical of our system of subsidizing megafarms and monoculture.

i'm using "irrational" in the technical economic sense, not the psychological sense. the story of california agriculture, of all agriculture west of the 100th meridian, is the story of north americans trying and failing to impose the small-hold farming methods of the ohio river valley on an arid climate. the history of california agriculture is the history of the failure of 'scaling up" small-hold family farms in an arid place.

it was precisely the inability of small private ventures, and private capital, to develop and manage large water transfers for irrigation that gave us the various failed attempts to manage water: swampland act, wright act, newlands reclamation act, cvp, and the swp. no small farmer, and no combination of small farmers, could could develop irrigation agriculture on that scale. no one anywhere, in the history of irrigation agriculture in the world, has ever done that. irrigration agriculture as a system requires far greater concentrations of resources and skilled labor precisely because it inolves the movement of water across distance.

that's why we have so many layers of old, failed legal/technical attempts to move and distribute water, and that's why the current rights/distribution system is so tangled. you don't need to know the history of cali farming to do the farming you're doing now, but you will need to know it to disentangle the mess of water law.

you're personally outside of the irrigation complex that undergirds most of cali's agriculture, because you apparently have a water-rich property with a viable well adequate for your irrigation. most of the best farmland in cali doesn't have that. indeed, much of the most productive farmland in cali was under water as recently as 1880.

we could, if californians decided they wished to, develop a system through which subsidized irrigated water from the big public projects went only to small family farms. but that's only now, after we've pumped trillions of dollars over a century into public construction of irrigation infrastructure.

at no point in california history have small family farms been the leading sector in ag production. from the spanish period forward, large farms worked by landless and transient labor has been the dominant form

now that there is a statewide public irrigation infrastructure in place, we could try to create the kind of small-hold farmscape that was once typical of, say, indiana in the late 19th century. i would personally be all in favor. but i'm not holding my breath.

and "specialty crops" is another term of art-- it's not derogatory or aimed at you personally. it just means that the statistically tiny percentage of california farms run primarily off family labor typically grow non-commodity and non-staple crops-- greens, berries, vegetables, etc, rather than wheat or rice.
Gene

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
Who the hell isn't subsidized? That is the $17 trillion question.

Whether the subsidies are worthwhile is the issue.

g
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
now that there is a statewide public irrigation infrastructure in place, we could try to create the kind of small-hold farmscape that was once typical of, say, indiana in the late 19th century. i would personally be all in favor. but i'm not holding my breath.

The funny thing is that I believe that 90% of voters would support such a scheme.

But we don't get to vote on such decisions.
John M

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
the devil is in the details. How would you determine what size farm was a family farm?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 23, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
How would you determine what size farm was a family farm?

one of the reasons i always either qualify "family farm" or use other awkward phrases-- small-scale, boutique, whatever -- is that "family farm" is widely used by california agribusiness to describe any farm that isn't a publicly traded corporation. thus boswell's jillion acre cotton empire was regularly described as a "family farm."

"family farm" or small-hold or freehold as it developed in 19th century popular and then legal terminology, was pretty well politically measured in The Homestaed Act: 160 acres. That was, in 19th century terms, the amount of decent ground required for a family of, say, 4-10, to produce a substance or even middle-class income on decent quality farmland in the ohio or upper mississippi river valleys. the key idea is a farm that is owner-occupied and run by family rather than contract labor.

But 160 acres was useless in arid climates-- most places a decent ranch would've needed at least a thousand acres to provide a similar middle-class living. On the other hand, 160 acres was way more acreage than could be managed with irrigation-- irrigation farming is generally way more labor intensive than what farmers were doing back in Indiana. Even in the early 20th century, irrigated 80 acres would've been too large for most family farmers to manage without contract lots of seasonal labor. John Wesley Powell's famous Report on the Arid Lands made that clear back in the 19th century. It also included the logical proposal that political and water districts in the arid West should be drawn along water basin boundaries rather than other random lines. He was all but tarred-and-feathered for it.

When the Newlands Reclamation Act passed, it included a clause that limited subsidized water deliveries to farms of 160 acres or less (already too large). That clause was unpopular with western growers who were already tenanting, leasing and contracting labor, so it was basically never enforced. Eventually agribusiness managed to get the limit increased to 960 acres (a bill signed by Reagan but endorsed by Jerry Brown).

But CVP hasn't even really enforced that limit. Technically, it wouldn't be difficult to impose an 80 acre limit, although you'd have a fair bit of evasion. But politically it's probably impossible.

That;s before we wade into the mess of rights and legal clusters. And the electric grid.

If this really is a mega-drought and we hit rock bottom, at some point, urban users are going to learn that they are paying 5 to 20 times for water what the Resnick's Paramount farms pays. WIth no deliveries scheduled for 2014, the next thing we're going to see, though, is a test of California's status as the principal irrigation ag state that doesn't regulate groundwater mining.


John M

climber
Feb 23, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
thanks KLK. I really appreciate your explanations. If this is a mega drought, things are going to get very interesting. If not a mega drought, then I doubt much will change. We seem to need big pushes to make big changes.

I have a friend from Germany who says they still have small farms there. She says in the smaller villages you know the farmer who produced what you are eating and you can even know which cow you are buying and who raised it and who butchers it. To me that helps build integrity throughout the system. If I lived close, I would totally buy produce from Khanom.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 23, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
160 seems reasonable to me.

but I'm flexible.

I'll accept 500. Anything to exclude the 100,000 acres.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Feb 23, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
My sister and her husband run a cattle ranch in SLO. She reports that this is the worst drought the ranch has experienced in the 5 generations the family has been in the business. Their cattle are primarily grass fed - not this season, though. There isn't any grass.

As of the end of Jan, NOAA's data confirmed that this is the worst drought in over a century - ie, the worst on record.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
Plenty of water here in Ireland (pissing down as usual), much of it wasted on poor infrastructure. And they still fluoridate the water here, just about the only EU country that does. And they are bringing in water meters and Ireland's richest man (though he lives as a tax exile in Malta) will be looking to gobble up water once it is privatized. Just watch, he'll do it to add to his billions.

But I digress.

Many of you have the finger on the pulse better than I do about California and water, though I know some things, having been born and raised in California. And having studied natural resources and hydrology at Columbia College (then CJC in 1974-77).

What I do know is that this thread I started is a new record for me, most of my threads die young, but this one has been flooded with responses. But the rain of information is, well, intoxicating. ;-)

And much of the information on this thread, that one hopes is accurate in one way or another, is both interesting and informative. Like a fresh spring rain.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Feb 23, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
There has been some discussion about family farms. They are alive and well in some areas - and can be far more efficient than their factory counterparts with regards to inputs v yield.

The Land Stewardship Project is a great example of an organization that fosters the growth of sustainable domestic agriculture in general, and family farming in particular - through local organization (setting up CSAs, fighting the construction of mega dairies, etc), public and farmer education, and lobbying at both the state and federal levels:

http://landstewardshipproject.org/

The variations in quality of life and health conditions for the farmers, quality of the product, and environmental impact between neighboring farms can be stark. I visited a MN dairy farm that changed its practices under this above organization's tutelage - it now makes more profit (much lower vet bills, for starters), has won more awards for this products, and loses 50 times less topsoil per storm event than its neighboring dairies.

Just a data point - but the link provided is a great resource for those who want to know more about family and sustainable farming today.

Ending scheduled federal farm subsidies would really help the growth of sustainable agriculture. The world isn't fair, but that really stacks the deck in the unsustainable direction.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 23, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
My sister and her husband run a cattle ranch in SLO. She reports that this is the worst drought the ranch has experienced in the 5 generations the family has been in the business. Their cattle are primarily grass fed - not this season, though. There isn't any grass.

As of the end of Jan, NOAA's data confirmed that this is the worst drought in over a century - ie, the worst on record.

prolly the worst since 1580 according to lynn ingram's calcs.

really feel for the small ranchers. if i were king, we'd be giving those folks subsidized water to water pasturage. there's rain coming this week-- hope there's enough seed for it to help. just got back from a short jog around the local bit of ranchland. just freakin grim-- there's like nothing to eat. they're running way fewer head than the textbooks say you can run on that acreage, but they're still digging down to dirt.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2014 - 11:44am PT
klk, I appreciate your input here. Clearly you are well informed.

One interesting thing I heard in a class long ago is that BigAg farms are the only ones who can afford to install equipment to conserve water. Is that true? I always got the feeling that instructor said some questionable stuff.

That boutique guy says he a dripper, and he's pretty small scale, right? (a little rise and shine jab for ya... just fooling around) Is there a step above drip irrigation in terms of water conservation? Direct watering to each plant's roots, rather than each plant? Specific timing of application?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 24, 2014 - 11:55am PT
I've seen underground irrigation for lawns. No spray at all, nothing lost to evaporation. ( and the Water Cops can't tell by looking if you're watering an *even* address on an *odd* day )

Works great, until you get gophers.

Over the years, the citrus grovers here have gone from flooding the groves via a series of open ditches, letting the water run through and then down the street, to a combined drip-spray system.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2014 - 11:58am PT
fuking gophers (actually voles) destroyed my stream channel. vole stew is on the menu.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 24, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
the citrus grovers here have gone from flooding the groves via a series of open ditches, letting the water run through and then down the street, to a combined drip-spray system.

I lived across the street from Redlands East Valley high for some years, pretty close to your neck of the woods. They were flooding, this was less than 4 years ago.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Feb 24, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
Hey there Pat!

natural resources and hydrology at Columbia College (then CJC in 1974-77)

Did you have Ross Carkeet as an instructor? I took an enviro class from him when I was there(90-92) doing the Fire program and then classes to go to a U. Man, I loved that lil school, bouldering and Manzanita101 between classes was priceless!

Oh, and thanks for the thread, full of great info and one of the reasons I visit this zone!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 24, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
ElCapinyoazz writes:

"I lived across the street from Redlands East Valley high for some years, pretty close to your neck of the woods. They were flooding, this was less than 4 years ago."



I see that too. It's not municipal, tap water. It's totally untreated, unfiltered water. Straight out of Big Bear. My guess is someone's flushing their irrigation system when it runs like that.

I remember once clearing the system of dozens of vertebrae bones that were plugging everything. A snake had apparently fell in upstream, and decomposed on his way down.


I've been walking around in the groves since '08, trying to archive the wind machines. And while I see remnants of the old timey concrete flumes, I haven't seen any in working order. I'll bet the switch to plastic hose / plastic emitters was more of a labor saving decision rather than one of water conservation.
John M

climber
Feb 24, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
Badger Pass at the end of Feb..


come on Snow!
scuffy b

climber
heading slowly NNW
Feb 24, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
Chaz, do you know how much water one of your avocado trees requires?
Roots

Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
Feb 24, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
Rain is on the way : )

also,

Chaz, do you know how much water one of your avocado trees requires?

Avocado trees don't like water much.
bergbryce

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Feb 24, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
Big precipitation event on tap for all of California this coming week. Let's hope for some big totals from San Diego to Alturas.
Yak-Chik

Trad climber
Phoenix
Feb 24, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
Don't believe the forcasts. The only way to be sure it
will rain in LA is to wash and wax your ferrari and no one is allowed to do that with the drought and all.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
khanom,

Thanks for your thoughts. I was taken by your mentioning mulch. It strikes me that the use of organic mulches is much underutilized.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 25, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
My arthritic toes are predicting rain, but from what the full view Pacific satellite looks like, I'm thinking 3/4"-1" for the whole event in the SGV.

Not gonna be that big a storm.

If I lived in Glendora under the burn area, I'd be getting ready for 4".

Just in case.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 25, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
7300' in the Sandias above Albuquerque. There would normally be a few feet here.

A lot of wells up there are drying up, too.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 25, 2014 - 03:24pm PT


Much like having winter cold is not an indication that global warming is a lie, 1 rainstorm does not a drought end. But at least some is heading over soon.



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 25, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
DMT, you should know better, those are the hippy rels' Crocs.
I had my Ferragamos on.
Roots

Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
It's coming down pretty good here in north OC. 6-8" total (of rain) expected from the systems we've had and will have over a few days...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
It's ovah! Woo-hoo!

Well, for a day or two. Shoulda cleaned the damn gutter.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 28, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
Still pouring in Riverside. I'm headed to see Banff FF in Redlands after work...looks like a big end-around to Beaumont to hit the 10, not willing to risk San Timeteo being flooded out in sections.

Supposed to rain hard through tomorrow here. Our work location floods in places, should be pretty interesting this afternoon, we had some rescues in the last couple of significat rainfall events when numpties tried to drive through 3' deep flooded roadways.
bergbryce

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
This is a cool NOAA page that lets you look at precip totals across all of California's watersheds. Some big totals out there, 5"+ not uncommon with more on the way.

http://www.cnrfc.noaa.gov/google.php?type=precip

You can tweak with the data ranges, etc on the right side.
John M

climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
cool site. thanks for that!

A little over 3 inches here in Wawona. We need a bunch more storms like this one to reach anything like normal. Praying for a wet March.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 28, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
From midnight until about ten this morning, the goat dish rain gauge was showing about 3/8".

Then the wind came up and blew the dish away.

About a half-hour ago, it started really raining, so I tracked down the goat dish, and returned it to its working position.

Since 11:33 AM ( Yosemite Valley time ), it's about at 1/2". Not bad for twenty-five minutes.

It's tapered off now, but we got rain.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
I'd like to get out my BMG to take out those phukking choppers hovering
over my house videoing the mudslide a few blocks away. Oooh, somebody got
some mud in their driveway so we're gonna burn hundreds of gallons of Jet A
so the retards can get excited! BFD!

And what I'm really pissed about is the storm is mainly north and south of us.
John M

climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Reilly, that massive storm hitting california that the newscasts described is hitting us here in Yosemite. Here is my neighbor crossing the street.






not to downplay if anyone really is getting hurt by this storm, but bemoaning how the news media has been describing this MASSIVE. PUMMELING.. storm.

this was funny..

A Message To People Complaining About The Snow Squall In Toronto

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/02/27/snow-squall-toronto-photos_n_4868693.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
John, that was funny. My brother-in-law lives in Barrie. But at least he
knew that it snowed in Canada before he moved there (from Africa!) and has
made an attempt to learn to drive in the snow, something which many other
Canadians apparently have put off doing.

On a more serious note he caught heat from his employer, a certain large Canadian airline,
recently because he canceled a flight to Halifax because of forecast
"Extreme Icing and Wind Shear". Hmmm, one might think that would be
grounds for staying home when analyzed by a pilot with 20,000 hours,
wouldn't one?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 28, 2014 - 06:11pm PT

Royal Robbins sighting John? Where did his Kayaks get off too?

dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 28, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
We wished for some rain and now there is a class 5 hurricane shaped
storm bearing down on my house! Lesson learned.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
Funny how some complain when there's not enough rain and some whine when we get torrential rain and the 'dangers' of it.

It's california. Always been this way.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
I was smiling robustly this morning- the first time I've seen hard rain falling in wide swaths across the sky in front of my house I bought last spring. We lost power for a few hours. The view out my windows is like from a belay perch, looking down on the trees and hills around, feels like I'm in the middle of the storm but fully isolated from it with the comforts of modern construction. Wonderful!
john hansen

climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
Last 24 hours precipitation map

If you scroll down and click on the Sacramento area Looks like Auburn got over 2 inches. Should help Folsom a little at least.


http://www.cnrfc.noaa.gov/precipMaps.php?group=nca&hour=24&synoptic=0
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 28, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
That low is wound up tighter than Dr. F after the 2010 midterms.

john hansen

climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/weus/flash-avn.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 1, 2014 - 02:32am PT
Flooding all over LA today.

Makes me want to cry.

Probably 20-30 BILLION gallons of water will simply wash down into the ocean and be wasted.

A relatively small amount will be captured in state reservoirs, but the underlying issue will not have been changed.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 1, 2014 - 06:54am PT
Adrenalized at the moment... Woken up by unholy awful noise from my iPhone with an emergency alert ..."Tornado Warning in this area until 4:00AM PST. Take shelter now. Check local media."


More news digging... A TORNADO WARNING AND A SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 400 AM PST FOR EAST CENTRAL LOS ANGELES ...

Wtf??? I'm almost 50 feet above the ground below me, on a hill, next to a window. Am I supposed to go sleep somewhere else? Should I wake up my wife for it?

Most detail I can find in news is that it might come as close as Glendora, but what if it changes path? I'm used to earthquakes, but I just discovered that tornadoes psych me out.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 1, 2014 - 10:06am PT
Nutagain, you do know that a prerequitsite for becoming a 'weatherperson'
is serving an extended internship at a used-car lot? It did rain hard at
0400 but I heard no thunder and a tornado without thunder is pretty unlikely.
Not imposssible but unlikely.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 1, 2014 - 11:18am PT
TGT said:
"That low is wound up tighter than Dr. F after the 2010 midterms."


OMG!! Brilliant!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 2, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
3.71" at Santa Fe Dam

That's about twice what I expected.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 2, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
TGT...Do you live in New Mexico..?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 3, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/event/?postId=52363

Is Factory Farming Destroying Rural America?

In the second half of the 20th century, a handful of corporate giants revolutionized the way America produces meat. They shortened the amount of time it took to raise chickens, pigs, and cattle while increasing the size of the animals–and decreasing the amount of feed they needed. But in the process of making meat cheap and plentiful for consumers, these corporations also enacted a stranglehold on America’s rural economy. Farming has become the least profitable sector of the agriculture business, and families across the Midwest have gone bankrupt and abandoned their land after generations. By cutting costs and killing competition, the big meat companies restrain income growth throughout rural America. Meanwhile, the Obama administration has tried and failed to pass new antitrust laws that would regulate the nation’s largest agribusinesses. How has factory farming transformed American small-town life? Former Associated Press reporter Chris Leonard, author of The Meat Racket: The Secret Takeover of America’s Food Business, visits Zócalo to explain where our dinners come from and their consequences for the American heartland.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 3, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
the goat dish rain gauge was showing

I love it when you reveal how little you understand about science and measurements.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 3, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
You know something? My measurements this weekend ended up being consistent with the *official* local rainfall totals.

Apparently, this is something that does not benefit from your over-thinking it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 3, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Yep, if you are willing to accept occasional "consistency" due to simple luck as good enough. It makes it that much more entertaining when you dispute ACTUAL measurements of climatic phenomena... like the increasing CO2 or temperature.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 3, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
You can't argue with success.

And on sunny days, like this one, the "rain gauge" doesn't just sit around doing nothing; It's used to feed kitchen scraps into the green waste disposal system ( a goat ).

Any of your instruments do double duty?


BTW, I can't recall an instance of me disputing anybody's measurement of anything, whether it be CO2, temperature, or anything else. Perhaps you can refresh my memory for me?
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Mar 3, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
Perhaps next time it rains you should have a yardstick shoved up the goats bum...accuracy will deflect the critics!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 3, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
64/16, cancel the 6's, = 4/1 = 4

Hooray for science!

(just because you got the answer doesn't mean you did it right)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
TGT...Do you live in New Mexico..?

No, but sometimes it feels like North Mexico.

Send

Trad climber
Central Sierra
Mar 3, 2014 - 07:13pm PT


"Last month, the National Weather Service's Climate Prediction Center gave a 49% probability of El Niño returning by fall, compared with a 45% likelihood of conditions remaining neutral and a 6% chance of La Niña. An update is expected this week."

http://www.latimes.com/science/la-me-adv-el-nino-20140303,0,5817547.story#axzz2ux3rzRqY
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
Damn potheads.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/03/01/illegal-pot-grows-adding-to-californias-water-woes/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 3, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
5.75" here in Monrovia hard against the foothills.

Send, that LA Times article was interesting, especially the graph which
the vagaries of El Nino.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 4, 2014 - 04:47am PT
Article associated with the graph from yesterday morning.
http://www.modbee.com/2014/03/02/3218404/precious-water-starts-heading.html

I sure am glad this is not Ireland, though, no matter what!!!!

Patrick, "may you die in Ireland." :0)

It rains as I speak, has been most of the night, gently, a mercy.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Mar 4, 2014 - 11:10am PT
It rained all day yesterday in Chico, we recieved 1.35 in precip ..drizzling right now.

Lassen today....looking good..


John M

climber
Mar 6, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
Nice Khanom! We only got 1/4 inch. Poor Badger got rain. They are so getting hosed this year. The next little storm is suppose to be warm too. Sunday. Monday..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 6, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
khanom, sounds like you need a bigger pond? If I guess your approximate location right, 1.7" in 12-hrs is around a 1-year recurrence storm... meaning you can probably expect your pond to overflow every year. If it all came down in 6 hours, you can probably expect your pond to overflow every 5 years.

http://hdsc.nws.noaa.gov/hdsc/pfds/pfds_map_cont.html?bkmrk=ca

If you are thinking of resizing it let me know. I'm willing to work for carrots these days.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 6, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
Sounds like you've got it covered, especially if you know how big "far bigger" is. Is there a channel feeding the pond (i.e. significant contributing area above the pond), or is it unchannelized overland flow?
dirtbag

climber
Mar 14, 2014 - 12:35am PT
Oh sh#t...^^^
John M

climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
Badger Pass closed today.. for the season Feb 8th to March 18th.. not much of a season.. season pass holders can apply half of what you paid for this years pass towards next years pass. next years passes are on sale for 149 dollars until the end of march.

http://www.yosemitepark.com/BadgerPass.aspx


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 18, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
I'm hoping that the wishes of 38.04 million Californians don't come true and that the drought lasts thru April...I'll be in YV for the month. Hmmm....that sounds selfish, oh well.
John M

climber
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
Hey Jim.. I hope you have a great time climbing in Yosemite, but I also hope for some wet. Howard Sheckter over in Mammoth does some weather forecasting, His long range forecast on Friday March 14 says that there is a possibility that the end of March and the month of April could be wet.

Thus we are likely to experience a transition to a wetter pattern later in the month and especially into the month of April. April may end up quite the surprise………..precip wise!

http://mammothweather.com

Next Storm possibly the middle of next week. I like Howard because he tries to explain things, though he uses a lot of terms I am not familiar with.

I'm hoping for short period storms with plenty of moisture, snow line above 6500 feet interspersed with lots of sunshine.
John M

climber
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
What worries me is the prediction for an inch next Saturday -- we nearly always get double the forecasted amount.

2 inches would be bad for you?
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Mar 27, 2014 - 05:02am PT
remember my page 1 post> "it is good for gold mining"?

3/27/14
"COLFAX, Calif. (AP) — There's gold in them dry hills!

Or gold seekers anyway. And they see a historic opportunity in California's historic drought.

Low water levels have led to a mini gold rush in the same Sierra Nevada foothills that drew legions of fortune seekers from around the world in the mid-1800s, as amateur prospectors dig for riverbed riches in spots that have been out of reach for decades..."

ok then, send my royalty checks to dr sprock, kntv oakland,

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2014 - 06:19am PT
Need I say it? Nope, but I will, it's pissing down here in Ireland.

I just hope that my former neighbor, brother Mac's best man, and a very good friend, Jay, is watering the last remaining redwood I planted on my late mother's land in Saranap (unincorporated between Lafayette and Walnut Creek).

I planted 27 redwood saplings (that was a task, going four feet down for each tree, redwoods have shallow roots, so I wanted to make sure they had a good start) in 1994, only the one remains on the border with Jay's land. He has been keeping it alive. It's about 30+ feet tall now, coolaboola.

Just as a personal note, Saranap was a great place to grow up. From a platform/hay loft we built on top of our largest chicken coop (about 14'x14') at the top of our hill, we'd sit there looking across the whole Diablo Valley, getting high and looking at Mt Diablo. I built a sort of climbing 'wall' on that coop/platform, with a four-foot overhang, holds and all. It kept me in good shape, shame I can't say the same now.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 27, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
Chuff is right... we got 1/4" of precip over the last two days... this drought thing was all just a big hoax... nothing to worry about any more. Also, keep in mind that 1982-83 was a wet year.

Over half of CA voters now support the $11 billion water bond measures. Looks like Chuff's team loses to data and reason AGAIN.

Khanom, is it true saturation overland flow (i.e. the water table is at the surface) or is infiltration excess? Not a whole lot you can do about SOF, but you can engineer some infiltration structures to get that water underground if it is infiltration excess.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Mar 27, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
This is how all San Diego water basins are all getting inter-connected. Not shown is the huge desalinazation plant being built in Carlsbad.




March 24, 2014
Barrett 160.90 ft 116.92 ft 34,805.5 10,570.9 30.4 0
El Capitan 197.00 ft 135.60 ft 112,806.9 40,632.8 36.0 0
Hodges 115.00 ft 92.74 ft 30,251.0 11,866.7 39.2 0
Miramar 114.00 ft 106.80 ft 6,682.4 5,577.3 83.5 0
Morena 157.00 ft 85.20 ft 50,694.0 1,991.0 3.9 0
Murray 95.00 ft 91.30 ft 4,684.20 4,090.5 87.3 0
Lower Otay 137.42 ft 123.94 ft 49,848.9 34,308.6 68.8 0
San Vicente 190.00 ft 150.15 ft 89,312.2 51,129.6 57.2 0
Sutherland 145.00 ft 67.39 ft 29,508.1 3,026.6 10.3 0
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 27, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
hey there say, the chief... thanks for the map...

and zbrown... thanks for sharing your map...
had never seen this type before on water...

also, patrick, thanks for sharing about your redwood trees, etc and the area... was very interesting...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 29, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
Pississippi up in heya!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2014 - 09:23am PT
I love you people. Irreverence, joking, day to day living.

Fremont? Andrzej, I thought you were in Poland. Fremont, I know it.

I had some neighbors in Darty, Dublin 6, when I lived there. Now I am in the Sunny Southeast of Wexford, yeah, except where is the sun?

Wochijreh and Agatha (I can't remember their young daughter's name). From near Gdansk (there are a lot of Poles in Ireland. Most of the supermarkets have a Polish food section). (I went out a couple of times with Magda, a very cute young blonde from Krakow. But she was 23 and I was, too old, 49).

Agatha: "Patrick it is cold."

"Agatha, you come from Poland, where there are sub-zero temperatures."

"Yes, but the Irish weather is a cold weather."

True. Cold weather like in Poland is a dry cold. Irish cold is wet, and goes straight to the bones.


EDIT

I would love to climb in the High Tatras.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 1, 2014 - 11:00am PT

Winter has finally arrived on..April 1st...beautiful..
post 400.....(-;
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2014 - 12:14am PT
Doesn't matter. 1982-83 was a wet year.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 2, 2014 - 01:28am PT
LOL, The Chief is still making predictions.

Here's his prediction for this snow season made on Oct 5 last year.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=970221&msg=2241078#msg2241078

Mark my words... the SIERRA will have 20-40% above avg AVG snowfall this season.

April 1 tally: only 32% of average snow water content.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 2, 2014 - 01:31am PT
yep, Chief....your words were marked, as you requested.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 2, 2014 - 01:50am PT
Here in LA, our reservoirs are nearly 100% full, thank you.
fairweather

Mountain climber
Roseville, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 01:55am PT
How about scrapping high speed rail and building a few more reservoirs, like the Auburn Dam or raising Shasta's Dam? Isn't having enough water a little bit more important than some pork belly railroad project that's going to be too expensive for people to ride without government subsidies,and take too long even if it was cheap enough?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
That chuff fella sure is impervious.

Ten bucks says next Winter when we are 200% or better

I'll bet $10 the northern Sierra will NOT be at 200% or better of average based on data from: http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/precip1/8STATIONHIST

Come on chuff, it is only $10... and your stellar record of climate predictions.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 2, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
Then there is NO drought in LA.


Perfect.



Pretty amazing how the LA Aqueduct is full to the brim and flowing just fine all the way down to .. LA!

That is correct. but your understanding of the situation is that of a flea considering the actions of the dog it lives upon.

But as you've stated, there is no drought in the Owens Valley, either.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 2, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
There is no drought anywhere because chuff has extraordinary long term vision and understanding of Earth's climate. He is an authority on the subject because he says he is. If climate was wildly different during various periods over the last 5 billion years and modern humans have only been around for ~200,000 years, it is only logical that ANY climatic changes within the previous range of variability are due to something other than humans.

Also, there is no ozone depletion due to human actions because for most of the Earth's history the NORM was little or no ozone in the atmosphere. So logically, if there was no ozone for most of the Earth's history, there is no way humans could adversely affect ozone levels.

derp
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 2, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Here in LA, our reservoirs are nearly 100% full, thank you.




LACWD purchases imported water from local SWP contractors including Antelope Valley-East Kern Water Agency, Castaic Lake Water Agency and Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, or regional wholesale water agencies such as Los Angeles Department of Water and Power and West Basin Municipal Water District.

...

The Colorado River Aqueduct stretches 240 miles from Lake Havasu on the California-Arizona border to Lake Mathews in Riverside County. California has been taking over 5 million acre feet of water from the Colorado River a year even though they are only entitled to 4.4 million acre feet. The Metropolitan Water District is a consortium of 26 cities and water districts that imports water from the SWP and CRA to supply drinking water to much of Southern California. In areas where local groundwater is available, LACWD owns and operates groundwater production wells which are used to pump the water from the groundwater basin to the surface. The groundwater is then disinfected and pumped into the distribution system.
John M

climber
Apr 2, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
4 inches of snow here in Wawona.

Badger pass probably has its best snow of the winter and they are closed.

the park service was supposed to start plowing glacier point road on monday. too funny..

Los Angeles imports most of its water. They will be okay. Where they could hurt is if this dry period persists. who is going to hurt this summer are San Joaquin valley farmers. And our aquifers as the farmers will pump a lot of water.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 2, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
4" of snow in Wawona ya say Moose? Nice. We can now official call an end to both the drought and to global warming. I'll tell the scientists. Not the antichrist guy who posts on ST all day long, the smart ones I mean.

Next topic.
John M

climber
Apr 2, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
no watering required in the winter time in the valley. Lawns mostly go dormant.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 2, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
I was wondering why, if there is no drought (is this different from a draught?), all the reservoirs in San Diego county, are at such a low level.

Is someone upstream or upstairs diverting all the moisture to make it appear that there is no drought in areas where people are easily fooled?
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Apr 2, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
hey there, say, john m ... saw a bunch of nice pics from folks, of now share... thanks for sharing...

:)
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
Great post zBrown!

The thud we just heard was The Chief being pushed over with a feather after the knockout...

:-)
Erik
Bob Harrington

climber
Bishop, California
Apr 2, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
State snow courses just came in at 32% of normal. Looking more like ~45% in the Owens. Bleak...but the skiing's improved.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
The Chief...I wanna see you straddle a fence little buddy...rj
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:22pm PT
Dingus, your ABCNEWS report posted above was from f*#king Feb 21st!

A lot has "precipitated" since then. Maybe not so dismal anymore? Especially after the past weekend.

The shock and awe water-police in this State are priceless. You can never win.

And that stupid little Delta Smelt needs to die off. Killing farms and farmers, man.

EDIT:
I was wondering why, if there is no drought (is this different from a draught?), all the reservoirs in San Diego county, are at such a low level.

Is someone upstream or upstairs diverting all the moisture to make it appear that there is no drought in areas where people are easily fooled?

A couple of reasons. You guys get much less rain than Nor Cal, and depend on us to release the water from here through delivery systems to SO Cal. Which I have no problem with.

Maybe we're just waiting to let the storage facilities up here to get fuller before we release down to you guys. That'd be my guess.

We did get a great deal of water over the last week. The weekend was dumping.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
"And that stupid little Delta Smelt needs to die off."

After the Smelt which fish should we kill off next?

Sorry. I would rather pay more for my food.
Erik


EDIT
We have not received nearly enough rain and snow to catch up. Look up the reservoir levels. This drought has been going on for much longer than just this year. Wake up....
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
Maybe we're just waiting to let the storage facilities up here to get fuller before we release down to you guys. That'd be my guess.

That would be a bad guess.

If you're going to offer up opinions, take some time to research the issues under discussion.


Every water "authority" has a website. A good place to start would be with these.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
You can't get a well driller to bid (or honor previous bids) on municipal work in the central valley now.

Farmers frantically trying to save millions of dollars worth of trees and other crops have bid the price per foot of hole through the roof!

At least someone's making something out of this.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
You're right about that Smelt, Labrat.

Wanting to fry the Smelt is indeed shortsighted.

Imagine the hit to the local economy should anything ever happen to that Smelt.

Every fall, fishermen from all over the world flock to the local area for the annual Smelt Run, all hoping to fill their stringers with Trophy Smelt.

The rest of the year, tourists keep the local economy humming, spending their money on one of the many Smelt Watching Tours.

All the people employed at the local Smelt Canneries will be out of work, exacerbating an already rotten economy.

The entire economy, everything from The Holiday Inn to Virgil's Bait Shop, owes its existence to the majestic Delta Smelt.

Long May You Run.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
latest updates;
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-california-snow-levels-improve-20140402,0,3831006.story?track=rss#axzz2xmsCkv4H

The Delta Smelt can be dealt with in other ways if there was a will. Instead we're going to dump billions into a stupid f*#king high-speed train from Nor Cal to So cal.

All the while, we'll piss and moan about water-storage resources. Yeah, let's build a high-speed train that no-one will use, and isn't really "high-speed". And continue to whine about water resources.

California is politically stupid. Suicidal.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/resapp/getResGraphsMain.action

Trinity 53% Total Capacity 68% Historical Avg.
Lake Shasta 49%, 60%
Lake Orville 49%, 64%
Folsom 46%, 71%
Don Pedro 53%, 73%
New Melones 43%, 69%
San Louis 42%, 46%

This combined with 1/3 of the average snow measured in the high country...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 2, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
bluey...I think you would be suprised by how many people would use the train...there's talk about a high speed train from LA to Bishop...rj
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:01pm PT
Labrat, those number are not that bad. Especially because we have more water on the way this weekend, and probably more later in April.

I think we'll probably be o.k., but as for the future costs of our stupid 'bullet-train', that's a bit different IMO.

EDIT:
bluey...I think you would be suprised by how many people would use the train...there's talk about a high speed train from LA to Bishop...rj


I doubt it. But isn't it funny there is no 'environmental impact' bullshit with this train, but s stupid smelt gets all the attention?

Think that maybe there are lobbying interests involved in both cases? California is rotten.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
"Wanting to fry the Smelt is indeed shortsighted."

How about adding Spring-Run Chinook, Steelhead and Green Sturgeon to your list?

They are all species listed as “threatened” under the federal Endangered Species Act.

I would rather have these fish swimming in the Sacramento delta and up into the mountains as far as possible.
Erik
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
bluering
I'm not saying the recent rains are not welcome. So far I see it as too little too late.

It did seem to put a damper on climbing in the Emeralds this weekend. I believe there is about a foot of new snow in the last week. It was dry with no snow week before last. :-(
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
They are all species listed as “threatened” under the federal Endangered Species Act.

So was the Peregrine Falcon. It's simply bullsh#t, they'll never get de-listed. But I agree the Sturgeon and Salmon are valuable. More valuable than the Delta Smelt. The other fish feed on other fish, not the DS exclusively, if at all. Even been fishing in the Delta?

The SF Delta is a very healthy eco-system.
Bob Harrington

climber
Bishop, California
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
In my neighborhood, on Bishop Creek, South Lake storage: 0%, Lake Sabrina storage: 0%. I heard from a retired So Cal Edison employee that this is the first time ever that both lakes have been flat empty.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:24pm PT
Not sure if anyone pays attention to this stuff, but as an avid fisherman, I do. But poaching is a huge problem in the Delta, and off the coast for Abalone.

The good news is that the Dept. Fish/Game is really on top of this shit! They busted a Russian immigrant group that was poaching Delta sturgeon caviar (you're supposed to take one/day of size, over 64 inches?) and selling it in Russian delis as Belluga caviar.

That is little baby sturgeon that never get born, aborted!!! And the populations of sturgeon are obviously directed affected. Not many people know that Shasta is loaded with sturgeon too. I've only got 2 from the DElta, and let them both go. Not really good eatin'.

Oh, and Vietnamese and Chinese immigrants have no respect for these bag-limits, trust me, I've witnessed it first hand. I saw a guy cut the fins off a bat-ray and just leave the f*#king there on a dock still alive. Really? Can't at least kill the damn thing too?

There are reasons we have reasonable limits on fishing. Abide by them.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:26pm PT
'Even been fishing in the Delta?'

Yes. And I grew up fishing most of the Yuba watershed along with many of the other rivers in northern California as I got older.

'The SF Delta is a very healthy eco-system.'

Totally disagree. Maybe if we managed to eradicate some of the introduced fish, invasive invertebrates and invasive plants species it might be.

Suggested reading
http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_612JMR.pdf

http://www.sacriver.org/aboutwatershed/plants/background-invasive-plants

http://californiawaterblog.com/2011/04/06/stressed-out%E2%80%94dealing-with-the-deltas-non-native-landscape/

EDIT
I totally agree with this 'poaching is a huge problem in the Delta, and off the coast for Abalone.'

I've seen the Abalone problem first hand on the coast and Salmon poaching on the Yuba. :-(
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:32pm PT
Maybe if we managed to eradicate some of the introduced fish, invasive invertebrates and invasive plants species it might be.

Of course, but I was talking about overall quality of the water and flora/fauna. What invasive fish are you talking about? I heard conflicting accounts that the Delta Smelt is not indigenous, but others disagree.

The invertebrates are even a problem in local lakes now, freshwater. Came from Asian cargo boats they say. After people take their freshwater boats into the Delta and re-introduce them to lakes, the infection occurs.

And yeah, some of them can survive in brackish water, or freshwater.

labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
'What invasive fish are you talking about?'

Yes, I know many of these are great to fish for and catch. I've chased many of them myself (really enjoy the American Shad!).

The delta would be better off without them!

American shad
Striped bass
Brown trout
Channel catfish
White catfish
Yellow bullhead
Brown bullhead
Black bullhead
Black crappie
White crappie
Green sunfish
Bluegill
Redear sunfish
Largemouth bass
Smallmouth bass
Treadfin shad
Carp
Goldfish

EDIT
'I heard conflicting accounts that the Delta Smelt is not indigenous'

Seriously? Do some more reading. It would not be listed if it were not native....

EDIT 2
Source http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/publications_forms/available_documents/peir_consolidate_cvpermits/docs/appendixc.pdf
ruppell

climber
Apr 2, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
That whole deal was a mismanaged decision on the part of those two, SCE & DWP. Had nothing to do with the "drought".

What? Do you even read what you post? You just stated that they where planning on a 65% fill the first year then 100% the next. That never happened. Why? Wait for it:


A DROUGHT started those years.












labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:01am PT
It appears that The Chief is still groggy from the blows with zBrown ;-)
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:20am PT
Chief. 06/07 or 07/08? Please state you source ;-) 06/07 was a bad year

Annual Snowfall Totals


1997/1998 310
1998/1999 120
1999/2000 124
2000/2001 263
2001/2002 53
2002/2003 81
2003/2004 104
2004/2005 278
2005/2006 76
2006/2007 29
2007/2008 124
2008/2009 130
2009/2010 153
2010/2011 155
2011/2012 45
2012/2013 77
2013/2014 25

126 Inches (17 year avg)

Source
http://www.mthigh.com/mountain/snow-totals

EDIT The above is a bad example ;-(
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:25am PT
That's why I said it was a bad example.

How about this one. You can put in the years you want to see....

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/snowapp/swcchart.action

for North, Central, and South (California)

Sorry

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:30am PT
American shad
Striped bass
Brown trout
Channel catfish
White catfish
Yellow bullhead
Brown bullhead
Black bullhead
Black crappie
White crappie
Green sunfish
Bluegill
Redear sunfish
Largemouth bass
Smallmouth bass
Treadfin shad
Carp
Goldfish

What? Many of those species are natural hikers into brackish waters that seperate their natural waters from the salty Bay waters. Wouldn't call them intrusive. And Stripers are like Salmon, WTF? They use the oceans and the freshwater or brackish waters equally as a natural habitat.

Maybe goldfish though.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:36am PT
Wow, that's GREAT! Chuffer picks a random day of a random year and shows that we have almost, but not quite, reached that arbitrary amount of water!

Pay no attention to the fact that we are still 25-40% of normal... the 2006-07 snowpack had already started melting by April... and we are still more comparable to the driest year on record.

What a fuking dipsh#t.


We currently stand some 1.9" or so from equally 2007's total snowfall at Mammoth Pass.

(shhh, nobody tell the idiot he is looking at current snowpack and not total precipitation... or "total snowfall"... let's see how long it takes him to catch on... and see if he can comprehend the important difference)
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:44am PT
Thanks for the laughs! Glad I'm in a chair....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:03am PT
Pay no attention to the fact that we are still 25% of normal... the 2006-07 snowpack had already started melting by April... and we are still more comparable to the driest year on record.

The 'year' is not over yet. If you've lived in California, or done any research as a "hydrologist", you'd realize that Cali does this thing every 15 to 30 years or so. Natural cycles. We call them Indian Summers.

But I don't even see that happening this year, it's sub-par, but far from a "drought".

Again. let see what April brings...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:05am PT
Awesome, redefining drought again!!! Just like you redefined climate to fit your needs. It must be difficult constantly fooling yourself into thinking you know sh#t about sh#t... unless of course you are an idiot... in which case it must be quite easy.

Imagine how stupid I would look if I went to a helipad and insisted I knew how to fly one of them whirly birds better than the pilots. Yeah, you look 100x stupider.

file:///C:/Users/Ricki/Downloads/Eastern%20Sierra%20Current%20Precipitation%20Conditions%20(3).pdf

Awesome Ricki... you included a link to your C: drive!!!!

Ah but then changed it to (god only knows what you were going for there) some LADWP site. Can you explain how that relates to the DWR site you referenced at the top of the page? (http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/snowapp/swcchart.action);

Perhaps you were going for this: "Measurement as Inches Water Content; Precipitation totals are cumulative for water year beginning Oct 1"

Found here: https://www.ladwp.com/cs/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dDocName=LADWP003464&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased

Pure jenius!

it's sub-par, but far from a "drought".

hahahaha... blurring, you are a fuking idiot. It is a drought by definition! Unless of course we allow idiots to change the definition at whim.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:26am PT
Imagine how stupid I would look if I went to a helipad and insisted I knew how to fly one of them whirly birds better than the pilots. Yeah, you look 100x stupider

Not really an accurate analogy. It would be more like telling a "hydrologist" that more water falling from the skies on a daily basis isn't less likely to incur a drought.

How can you stand by your "data-models" when it's APril 2nd? Have you no history in you models of Calif Aprils??
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:27am PT
Shut the fuk up Donny and go look up how drought is defined outside your own vapid skull.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:33am PT
The snow was already melting in April 07 huh HATECHRIST???


Odd, what then was it doing in April of 83... cloning itself as it melted? It did not peak till the end of April that Max season.

hahahhaaaaaaaaa... too much.... ahhahhahahhahaaaaaa.... make it stop....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:39am PT
hey chuff, when the water content of the snow pack is going down, the snow is melting (or sublimating). It had already started going down by April 2007 (you see that right?)... which has exactly nothing to do with April 1983.

There is no fear in that, unless you are afraid of facing reality outside that impenetrable skull of yours.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:43am PT
Ah, not according to your graphs HATECHRIST. They started their descent the beginning of March of 2007.

Why?

There was NO SNOWFALL to record.

Wow, you really are THAT stupid! Thanks for the reminder.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:47am PT
yep... I said the 2006-07 snowpack had already started melting by April. When the water content of the snow pack is declining (when the line on the graph goes down) it means the snow was melting (or sublimating).

It must hurt being that stupid. I'm sorry for your suffering.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:55am PT
About as stupid as they come apparently.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Apr 3, 2014 - 02:03am PT
The ski industry needs to to get up off it's ass and price/ advertise aggresively according to when the customers could possibly travel, and target families more, not the elderly rich minority.
The old days of everybody just going for it en masse are over.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 02:10am PT
This topic sure took a turn for the worse with all the name calling ;-(

Goodnight.
Erik
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Apr 3, 2014 - 03:27am PT
i wanna do 30 days straight time in Quentin,
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 3, 2014 - 09:57am PT
We are currently at or above the MIN year of 76-77'

Very weak logic Chief, as we are in the 3rd year of consecutive low snow winters.

What were the two previous winters before the winter of 76-77?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 10:11am PT
Come on Chuff, if you don't know that a negative slope on a SWE graph means the snow is melting, yet continue to insist you know what the graphs mean, you are stupid. That's a fact.

If I insisted you control a helichopter with a joystick and two pedals, one for gas and one for breaks, you'd set me straight. If I kept insisting you were wrong and I was right, you'd call me an idiot... and I'd deserve it.

You deserved it... and blurring always deserves it. Stop playing the whiny victim and admit you were being stupid.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2014 - 10:29am PT
This topic sure took a turn for the worse with all the name calling ;-(

Erik, agreed to some extent. But I started it because I read can reports, weather bulletins, etc etc, but looking at photos people have posted on this thread also tells a lot, perhaps not the whole story but…

So, how serious is the drought? I have read through the entire thread and I see some conflicting reports, studies, forecasts.

But what is like on the ground? And the reservoirs, lakes, and… Tahoe, Walnut Creek/Lafayette, Salton Sea, Mammoth Lakes, Shasta, the rivers flowing from the Sierra/Cascades, or from the Coast range, etc.

Again to iterate, I can read all I want, some conflicting stuff, but you people are there on the ground.

As where I am, pissing down the past few days but today is 'sunny', looking like Spring.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 10:36am PT
Ah, I see what the chuff is saying. It isn't a drought because there have been worse dry periods in the past. And depletion of the ozone isn't a problem because ozone wasn't around for the vast majority of the Earth's history.

On the same note, chuff isn't a idiot because blurring is an even bigger idiot.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Apr 3, 2014 - 10:37am PT
So, how serious is the drought? I have read through the entire thread and I see some conflicting reports, studies, forecasts.

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?id=9440612

Farmers on the West Side of the Valley -- in areas like Huron and Firebaugh  are expected to get nothing. But for the first time, East Side farmers -- who rely on water out of Friant Dam -- also face zero allocation.

Farmers who have wells will pump groundwater to sustain their crops, but that will put heavy pressure on the Valley's underground aquifer.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2014 - 10:42am PT
Khanom, is that yip cia?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 3, 2014 - 10:55am PT
I took some of my own advice and will offer these additions.

San Diego County imports roughly 80% of it's water

Average for the five year period ending 2013:
20% from Bay-Delta**
63% from Colorado River
17% came from local supplies

**The Bay-Delta is a vast network of channels and islands at the convergence of the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers, which collect runoff from the Sierra Nevada.

Rainfall, by decade has been fairly consistent (note: last 'decade' is less than ten):




San Diego Rainfall by Season (July 1 through June 30)
1850-1851 through 2012-2013
2012-2013 season shown in red


OT:

Nobody needs a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, right? I was inclined to skip through the darkness (but check out the moon @2:50) to the clouds blowing in the wind.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
Patrick, you mentioned stream flows. Check out this site: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ca/nwis/rt

Note the stream flow graphs are logarithmic.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 3, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
[quote]California Drought: San Joaquin Valley sinking as farmers race to tap aquifer
By Lisa M. Krieger
lkrieger@mercurynews.com
Posted: 03/29/2014 01:28:19 PM PDT

... "Everybody is starting to panic," said Arthur, whose Fresno-based well-drilling company just bought its ninth rig, off the Wyoming oil fields. "Without water, this valley can't survive."

When water doesn't fall from the sky or flow from reservoirs, there's only one place to find it: underground. So, three years into a devastating drought, thirsty Californians are draining the precious aquifer beneath the nation's most productive farmland like never before, pitting neighbor against neighbor in a perverse race to the bottom.

The rush to drill is driven not just by historically dry conditions, but by a host of other factors that promote short-term consumption over long-term survival -- new, more moisture-demanding crops; improved drilling technologies; and a surge of corporate investors seeking profits for agricultural ventures.

Now those forces are renewing an age-old problem of environmental degradation: Decades ago, overpumping sunk half of the entire San Joaquin Valley, in one area as much as 28 feet. Today new areas are subsiding, some almost a foot each year, damaging bridges and vital canals.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/drought/ci_25447586/california-drought-san-joaquin-valley-sinking-farmers-race[/quote]
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
What Lisa M. Krieger fails to point out in her fear mongering rant is...

1982-83 was a wet year and it has been drier in the geologic past.

Therefore, nothing to worry about and all your concerns are invalid.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
hahahaaa... the man who doesn't know what a negative slope on a graph means seems to think everyone who mentions the FACT that we are currently experiencing a drought automatically attributes it to anthropogenic climate change and thinks it is unprecedented in all of Earth's history. It must be nice living in your own little world of self-delusion.

But then again, the world all began 50 years ago.

Nope, but Folsom Lake did (+/- 10 yrs).
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 3, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
I don't know why you keep responding to the Anti-Wes-Me-Christ there Chief. Good luck with it.

Shirt for the antichrist there:


Save him a lot of time blowing hot air calling everyone idiots. LOL

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
In the mean time, it is what it is.

yep, and it is a DROUGHT by definition. And you are an idiot by definition.

And couchfuker, well, he's pretty stupid too... apparently he doesn't know how Wheel of Fortune works.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
We are dealing with it you moran. And we will continue to deal with it while you and the other anti-establishment idiots continue to live off your government checks and ignore reality.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Actually, I've been meaning to tell you... to be honest, I no longer have a PhD. They took it away from me.

They said I was far too smart for a PhD and my time would be better spent fly fishing and posting graphs I don't understand on the stupidtaco. They said, with a little hard work and a full lobotomy, I might be able to reach the status of a The Chuff.
ruppell

climber
Apr 3, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
SO this is what the US looked like during the Cretaceous period about 70 million years ago.


Using chiefs logic, basing current situations off of geological norms, I'd bet even he would have to agree we are in a drought. lol
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 3, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
Using chiefs logic, basing current situations off of geological norms, I'd bet even he would have to agree we are in a drought. lol


Or maybe that the Earth is constantly 'evolving'.
ruppell

climber
Apr 3, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
Yeah, blue, that was kind of my point. lol
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 3, 2014 - 10:35pm PT
That buzzin is comin from a dungeon...a dungeon of despair...and the people eat...
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 4, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
Obviously what's needed is not a haymaker, but a rainmaker like Mr. Hatfield.



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 4, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
It must be sad to live in an isolated world where you blow so hard, insist you are right despite evidence to the contrary, and refuse to admit when you are clearly wrong. Sometimes, when I imagine the life the Chuff must lead, I feel sorry for him. Then I remember the one day I met him out climbing... yep, he was an angry little man, failing to engage in a friendly howdy-do at the crag or in the parking lot. Although the woman with him seemed pretty friendly. I figured this poor guy was just having a bad day. I guess it is easier for as#@&%es to live in isolation.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 5, 2014 - 12:19am PT
I took some of my own advice and will offer these additions.

San Diego County imports roughly 80% of it's water

Average for the five year period ending 2013:
20% from Bay-Delta**
63% from Colorado River
17% came from local supplies

**The Bay-Delta is a vast network of channels and islands at the convergence of the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers, which collect runoff from the Sierra Nevada.

Rainfall, by decade has been fairly consistent (note: last 'decade' is less than ten):


Here is something to think about: San Diego is 362 Sq Mi. In a one inch rainstorm, 6.2 Billion gallons falls on that surface. So in an average year, 62 Billion gallons of water is available for capture.

The city uses about 162 Billion gallons a year.

Currently, most of that rainwater is lost. They capture a lot in the mountains (and the average rainfall up there is closer to 40 in/year), but that which falls on the city itself, the 62 billion, is lost down the gutter.

That is a valuable resource, that could make a huge difference in what is happening in the southland.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 5, 2014 - 12:23am PT
The Chief is making the following argument:

there is no gasoline available within 100 miles of his home. This is not a problem, because prior to 100 years ago, there was NO gasoline available within 100 miles, so that was the normal condition.

therefore, there is no gasoline problem in Bishop, with none available.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 5, 2014 - 12:55am PT
Why can't we do the obvious?

Build Delta Smelt grates that disallow them from being pumped though the canals,

Kill the "bullet train" project and avert all funds to irrigation and water resource protection.

All extra funds go back to the Cal Debt.
Psilocyborg

climber
Apr 5, 2014 - 01:04am PT
wait....extra funds from a construction project?!? hahahahahaha!!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 5, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
I was thinking that fires or the lack thereof may be an indicator of "drought-like" conditions.


The number of Cal Fire involved fires 2013 calendar year was about 475. The prior year was zero.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 5, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
Currently, most of that rainwater is lost. They capture a lot in the mountains (and the average rainfall up there is closer to 40 in/year), but that which falls on the city itself, the 62 billion, is lost down the gutter.

San Diego is a sea port.

Where are you going to capture and impound all that water at?

Build barges in the ocean?

How effectively surface runoff can be captured and stored is completely an issue of topology and geology.

A good contrast are the San Gabriel and Los Angeles river drainage's.
Almost none of the water (relatively speaking)that falls on the San Gabriel drainage ends up in the ocean. Since it sits on a huge alluvial fan it's perfect for capturing all of it and settling it down into the aquifer.

the San Fernando Valley and the Los Angeles river drainage is geologically completely different. (it wouldn't make any difference as far as water capture and storage if all the concrete was removed.)

There's no way to get the water into the aquifer and most of it ends up in the ocean.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 5, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
How effectively surface runoff can be captured and stored is completely an issue of topology and geology.

Pretty sure you mean topography.

And we all know geology is just a theory based on the opinions of brainwashed fear mongers who hate the freedoms of Merkins.

(it wouldn't make any difference as far as water capture and storage if all the concrete was removed.)

That simply cannot be true. Perhaps it wouldn't make much of a difference... but it would certainly make some difference. Isn't most of the LA basin alluvial? Plenty of room for water those.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 5, 2014 - 06:54pm PT

So are the affinity laws I guess too.
John M

climber
Apr 5, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
The number of Cal Fire involved fires 2013 calendar year was about 475. The prior year was zero.

not sure where you got your information, but 2012 saw plenty of Cal Fire involved fires. Drought doesn't always mean more fires. A wet spring with lots of grass growing can mean a worse fire season. Lightning strikes play a big part in the number of range land fires. Along with how dry it is.

Long term drought means more dead trees. But dead trees don't necessarily equate to more fires. It means fires might get bigger, but not necessarily more of them. More fires usually means more grass and more lightning strikes. Other parts of the equation are how many wind events and how hot it is.

Considering how hot fires get, it seems weird to me that fires seem to be so affected by temperature, but that is the way it looks. Not sure if that is 100 percent true, but it sure looks that way. Fires seem to grow quicker on a 100 degree day versus a 70 degree day.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 5, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
by all means do not build a desalinization plant for agricultural purposes.

Farmers couldn't pay the power bill.

There are two major ones under construction though.

Poseidon in Carlsbad. (50 MGD)
http://poseidonwater.com/
As originally conceived it was supposed to benefit from off peak power from SONGS. That ain't happening now.

CARLSBAD, Calif. — The San Diego County Water Authority has agreed to buy at least 48,000 acre-feet of water from the plant each year for about $2,000 an acre-foot.

(For comparison MWD charges between $1,200 and $1,500 AF)

and the Cal American Water plant in Monterrey. (6-9 mgd)

http://www.watersupplyproject.org/overview

As a result of the proposed Monterey Peninsula Water Supply Project and all other rate changes proposed between now and 2018, a typical customer should expect an approximate 41% increase in their bill phased in over five years between 2013 and the end of 2018.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
Hey there Pat!

natural resources and hydrology at Columbia College (then CJC in 1974-77)

Did you have Ross Carkeet as an instructor? I took an enviro class from him when I was there(90-92) doing the Fire program and then classes to go to a U. Man, I loved that lil school, bouldering and Manzanita101 between classes was priceless!

Cragar, I had Ross Carkeet for six classes, one of the best professors I have ever had.

Yeah, bouldering in the arboretum or when it was raining or snowing buildering on Manzanita 'Hall'. The overhang (balcony) kept one dry and the arches over the door ways into the cafeteria were a good workout if traversed.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 6, 2014 - 12:27am PT


San Diego is a sea port.

Where are you going to capture and impound all that water at?

Build barges in the ocean?

Glad you asked! I think I posted it previously in this thread, but I'll post it again. This is how:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQrZtG-LVg





How effectively surface runoff can be captured and stored is completely an issue of topology and geology.

Not completely. there are other issues, such as time for absorption.

A good contrast are the San Gabriel and Los Angeles river drainage's.
Almost none of the water (relatively speaking)that falls on the San Gabriel drainage ends up in the ocean. Since it sits on a huge alluvial fan it's perfect for capturing all of it and settling it down into the aquifer.

the San Fernando Valley and the Los Angeles river drainage is geologically completely different. (it wouldn't make any difference as far as water capture and storage if all the concrete was removed.)

There's no way to get the water into the aquifer and most of it ends up in the ocean.

Great example! Although totally wrong. the San Fernando Valley is the home of one of the largest aquifers in the state. Over 500 million acre feet, enough water for LA for 5 years. The soil is PERFECT for absorption. Two problems: the surface has largely been covered with impermeable surfaces. The water can't get there, and has been shunted into the LA river for removal to the ocean. The second is that a large part of the aquifer is contaminated, predominantely from aerospace industry. It's being cleaned up.

The issue is not one of geology, it is an issue of politics and money (and isn't that how we spell W-A-T-E-R in Ca?) The San Gabriel Valley has spent the money and built the infrastructure to capture the water. LA has not.

I actually sit on the committee that is involved in changing the water policy, and it is an exciting time!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 6, 2014 - 12:32am PT
Ah, NO!


Just because modern humans here in Cali have not experienced the reality of a true mega drought of 25-30 years or more that have and do occur regularly, does not mean they are NOT the norm.

As the studies clearly indicate, the past century was an atypical WET period and was NOT the norm for this region.

You all are using a time frame (135 or so years) which includes the atypical wet period as the norm. That period is miniscule compared to the Big Picture in time that in reality includes long extended period mega droughts that are the norm.


Sorry Chef,

you keep repeating yourself without making a point.

No one disputes the history of water that you are presenting. But you then go on to present that it therefore, is not a problem.

What you ignore is that in your historical setting, there are many tens of millions of people, many cities, one of the breadbaskets of the planet, even the state of California missing. None of it was here.

The relative lack of water has relatively little impact, when few people live in an area. Sadly, not so when it has been occupied by millions

Perhaps you are pining for the days when the deer and the antelope wandered downtown LA. Or no white men lived in Bishop. Pine away.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 6, 2014 - 12:37am PT
The biggest buck deer I ever saw, judging by the size of its rack, was in the city of L.A. In Griffith Park, between the Observatory and the Greek Theatre.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 6, 2014 - 01:48am PT
The number of Cal Fire involved fires 2013 calendar year was about 475. The prior year was zero.

not sure where you got your information, but 2012 saw plenty of Cal Fire involved fires.

That would be California Secretary for Natural Resources John Laird, April 4, 2014 in an inteview published in the San Diego Union Tribune. Perhaps the original statement should have included Mr. Laird's qualifier, "of any substance".

You look at the benchmarks — a year ago January we had zero fires of any substance that Cal Fire had to deal with. This year it was 473.

As to the rest of the commentary, I'll come back to it.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 6, 2014 - 01:58am PT
Take your complaints up with Mr. Laird, (if you get some free time from cleaning toilets). What I can't understand is why he is in the position he is in rather than you, since you appear to be so much more knowlegdable.

How did you count over 10? Did you grow another hand out your ass?

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 6, 2014 - 02:04am PT
Write to Mr. Laird and inform him of your discovery. I'm sure he'll appreciate your facts more than anybody reading this thread.



John M

climber
Apr 6, 2014 - 02:11am PT
As I explained, the number of fires has more to do with lightning strikes, wind events, high temp days and spring rain for grass growth.

I have no idea where you guys are getting your information, plus I don't really understand how a fire is determined to be a cal fire or one of the other agencies that fight fires in California. From reading their website it says they protect state owned lands and private property. That leaves a lot of federal land and a lot of fires. Plus does a fire become run by one of the other agencies once it cross over onto national forest land or BLM land or National park land. How does that go into the statistics? I don't know.

This site says there were 7175 Cal fire incidents in 2013 and 4803 in 2012 with a 5 year average of 4851, I have no idea how to interpret that.

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_stats?year=2013
John M

climber
Apr 6, 2014 - 02:23am PT
Yes.. I understand that. My question was how they define a fire that starts out as theirs and moves to a combination federal response and cal fire response. They don't define their statistics on their website. At least I haven't been able to find it. For instance, on their own map they list fires that they say were not Cal Fire incidents, yet they responded. So the water is a bit murky.
John M

climber
Apr 6, 2014 - 02:57am PT
I found the article Zbrown posted. I don't' believe he is talking about incidents for an entire year. I believe he was talking about incidents in January of 2114, verses incidents in January of 2013. This year was so dry that there were fires when normally there aren't fires.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/Apr/03/laird-water-drought-california/

I still haven't figured out how a fire is determined to be a Cal fire incident, or some other organization. There are fires that Cal Fire responded to that are and aren't Cal Fires, including fires that burned on both Cal Fire controlled land and on national forest or BLM land.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2014 - 07:25am PT
OFF TOPIC

California is rotten

Bluey,

Probably, but you will find lobbying and corruption in every state and country in the world. Just look at some of the stuff that has gone down here in Ireland, especially if Irish billionaire (who made his fortune via a brown envelope) Denis O'Brien is involved. The rich just keep getting richer and the poor just keep getting poorer (I include middle income in the latter group), usually with the help of corrupt officials.

In Transparency International's 2013 Corruption Perceptions Index, out of 177 countries the US came in at 74/100 on the index, ranked 19 (tied with Uruguay), Ireland came in at 21, and Canada tied at 9 with Australia. Denmark and New Zealand were tied at number 1 for being the cleanest of the 177.

Apologies for the thread drift.

Now back to playing Marco Polo, except there is no water in the pool.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 6, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
I found the article Zbrown posted. I don't' believe he is talking about incidents for an entire year. I believe he was talking about incidents in January of 2114, verses incidents in January of 2013. This year was so dry that there were fires when normally there aren't fires.

I assume that you mean 2014, not 2114, but your interpretation seems to say then that there were 473 in January of this year and zero in the prior year, which is even worse.

Mr. Laird's statement is not very clear, but that's why the chief is so important to the ST. He can figure out anything. Next time I'll read the article instead of relying on hearsay, or of course, I could just wait until tc reads, interprets and posts it.

John M

climber
Apr 6, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
I assume that you mean 2014, not 2114,

Exactly.. I meant 2014



a year ago January we had zero fires of any substance that Cal Fire had to deal with. This year it was 473.

This is the quote I was working off of. I believe that He is talking about this years fires during January, versus last years fires during January. Normally things are too wet in January to have wild land fires. This year it was very dry.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 6, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
I'm anxiously (well not really) awaiting tc's interpretation of this data. Just more arsonists around when there is a drought that only exists in some folks' minds?
John M

climber
Apr 6, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
zbrown.

I think that use of the word drought is what the Chief is hung up on. His contention is that if the normal for this place is more drought like then is accepted, then what we are currently going through is normal, and thus not a drought, since by definition a drought is abnormally lower precipitation. Either way, whether we call it a drought or normal, it means less water and that is what we have to contend with.

The problem with the Chiefs point is that he seems to think that we will go back to wet, so why get up in arms. But if what he says is true that the normal is drier, then by average we should stay drier and not necessarily go back to a wetter period.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 6, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Looking at the rainfall-by-year graph posted earlier, it seems if California didn't have dry years periodically, something would be out of whack.

Everything in California runs on a boom-bust cycle.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
For the majority of the time the universe has been around, there has been no Solar System, no Earth, North America, no Sierra Nevada, no California, and certainly no climate in California. Therefore, the very existence of a climate here is abnormal. The only NORM for this location in the universe is apparently cosmic dust at ~3K.

I think I get what the chuff is going for here... complete avoidance of any societal responsibility through feigned knowledge of how the world works. By latching onto the tidbits of science that support his preferred state of apathy, while simultaneously disparaging the scientific framework that provided those tidbits, he is able to dupe himself into believing he has the inside scoop on what is really happening. He has apparently convinced himself that he is the only one who understands the complexity of the world around him... and nobody, not even the scientists who provided him with the long-term analysis of climate, can comprehend what he himself knows to be true. Since he is the only one who understands the world around him, and he sees no way to tackle the water shortage problem, there isn't a problem and there really is nothing anyone can do about it.

Fantastic!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
Oh come on chuff... we all know you can't trust peer reviewed literature... especially when it is related to climate change. The only thing we can trust is YOUR authoritative gut feeling. Maybe state leaders just need a retired Navy guy to tell them which peer reviewed studies to take seriously and which ones are part of a vast global conspiracy?
John M

climber
Apr 6, 2014 - 03:59pm PT


thanks for the explanation Chief. It makes sense to me. I haven't seen the studies, but I keep hearing about it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
John, here's a pretty good paleoclimate study. According to chuff the CA government doesn't know about studies posted on their own websites. Go figure!

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/water_issues/programs/bay_delta/deltaflow/docs/exhibits/ccwd/spprt_docs/ccwd_malamud_roam_etal_2006.pdf
John M

climber
Apr 6, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
Wes, It depends on which government you mean. Local government versus state versus feds. Plus they may believe something, but haven't yet found the will to face it or know how to deal with it.

For instance, I would bet most people, including most people in the federal government believe that our tax code is messed up. But who has the will to deal with it. So things keep rolling along the way that they are. Messed up. The government may be starting to realize that we may have to deal with lower amounts of water, but do they have the will to do something about it, or the full realization of what this means? I don't know. Since I am new to this belief, I don't have an opinion. I haven't read up to see who believes what. The Chief talks about a study. I don't know if he means one study or what. I find that few things get changed on just one study. Especially something as large and complicated as California water supply.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
The CA government is fully aware of the water situation. Politricks get in the way of resolving it... mostly big ag$. Chuffhole only confuses the situation by insisting the scientific framework that produced the "study" he relies on to support his view is the same one he vigorously refutes the second it doesn't support his preconceptions. It is ironic that he fully endorses the paleoclimate research, which is more inferential than the anthropogenic climate change research, which he desperately tries to refute.

That the local and state leadership needs to get off their asses and take these studies seriously and prepare for what the NORM for this region is.... Dry.

I think they are waiting for your vital input on the matter. They are lost without you. We are all lost without you. What ever shall we do to prepare chuff? Help us OB-Rick, you are our only hope.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
Prior to the above emergency legislation, there was absolutely NO action nor legislation in preparation for this situation. NONE!

You fuking idiot... Jerry's family has been getting federal help for CA's water woes for over 50 years. You have to be a special kind of stupid if you think this issue just crossed Jerry's mind... and there was "NO action" in preparation for this situation.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Google Pat Brown you idiot. Not only did CA ask for federal help for water issue, they got quite a bit of it. You know nothing about everything, don't you.
lubbockclimber

Trad climber
lubbock,tx
Apr 6, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
It's finally raining here in Texas!!!!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
Yeah, you'd think Jerry would have done something...

http://www.water.ca.gov/watertransfers/docs/9_drought-1976-77.pdf

(psst, dipsh#t... see page 91 and beyond where they talk about federal and other relief for the drought. Pay no attention to pg 167, it is above your head. And yes, of course Jerry is absolutely responsible for the State's response to water issues over the last 30 years.)

San Luis... federal funding for part of the SWP. Thanks Pat.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
derpy derpy derp

Chuff Ricki for Governor!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 6, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
"Infra-WHAT?"

http://patbrowndocumentary.com/trailer/

[Click to View YouTube Video]This is all SUCH a flood of endlessly fascinating debate, but it ain't really helping one little bit, except to make others shy away...

Pat Brown is the only California State pol that I still admire after all is said and that's that.

He did more in his terms than any other guv, and he did it all with dial telephones, too, none of this push-button crap-ola.

His kid's just a WUSSY, too. Not much there, just the name. At least he's not evil.

(And thank God he got married!)

And the drought goes on.
http://cemerced.ucanr.edu/about/weather/?weather=station&station=148

http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2014/04/01/california-sierra-snow-survey-drought/7169631/
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 6, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
"infra-what"... who cares, it is Jerry's fault.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 6, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
No, it's yer fault. Or the Chirff's. :0)

Draw straws...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 7, 2014 - 01:21am PT
What mouse? Jerry asked Obama for help. That's it... drought officially over... end of story.

That is if you believe there ever was a drought... which there wasn't if you consider the Pliocene... which is TOTALLY relevant.




But then, living in a cave as you do, well, the situ most assuredly does not affect you.

Not as much as not living in California won't affect me. F*#k this place. Too rainy. Back to the intermountain west for me.
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Apr 7, 2014 - 09:41am PT
28 feet and still heading down, yikes! Interesting read.......

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/04/06/6299023/san-joaquin-valley-sinking-as.html
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 7, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
SO much for the State Leadership learning from and taking action stemming from this valuable 1977 DWR Report where the above issue of ground water management was critically addressed.

I love it how the authoritarian's solution to everything is... AUTHORITY. A year of drought, which has already been authoritatively decided NOT to be a drought, and the Governor should wave his magic wand and fix everything.

Nevermind the decades of precedent and $$... it was Jerry's fault.
Nevermind the other gov's who did nothing... blame it on Jerry.
Never mind Jerry's preemptive water conservation efforts and post-drought actions... blame Jerry.

In short, rely on AUTHORITY for everything... blame AUTHORITY for everything... meanwhile continue to do and understand NOTHING about everything.

Unless it has to do with climate change... then the AUTHORITIES better not do ANYTHING because chuff doesn't believe (or even come close to understanding) the science yet.

Ah... per the DWR's 1977 Drought Report recommendations, that was one of the priority actions...

Recommended by Jerry's leadership. When was the first comprehensive investigation of groundwater resources in CA conducted? When were any funds allocated or updates made? (Hint: Brown, Davis, Brown). See Bulletin 118, Water Code 12924, and updates.

I know, I know... effective groundwater management should be implemented regardless of whether we understand the groundwater systems or not.

AUTHORITY... regardless of knowledge... Chuff Ricki for Governor!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 7, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
You Bruce are certainly no Dudley Doright. No that other character, Snidely Whiplash, almost perfectly describes your character or rather lack thereof.Watch out frosty back there's a chinese coal train a-coming right over your backside.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 7, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
I've done a lot to help solve the problem over the last 30 years. And I will continue to do everything I can, although not in this state. You got shot at and peeled potatoes and now do nothing for anyone but yourself. Did you fix the problem over there? Or did you fail, only to have another Repugnikunt leader send another group of young people scrambling to fix it, wasting their potential that could have been applied to solving real problems rather than killing poor people for oil. Thanks for your service.

Chuff, do you think the only taxes you pay are income taxes?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 7, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
"WE"???


Ah, nope. Not mine. Maybe YOUR's.


That is of course if you ever changed your original residency from Tenn.


BTW, I and many others in the CA Dis Vet Category are in a whole different tax bracket.

Ah, but the Repugs have a plan for YOU, and the rest of the 47% of "takers" that rip off tax money from the rest of us. They want to take you to the FLAT TAX, so that you can pay the same rate as Sam Walton. None of your income tax deductible.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 7, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
Hey, I'm sure that's the number someone gave him and it fits his world view that he is better than everyone else... in fact 6% better than perfect... so OF COURSE it is accurate!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Totally normal Dingus. 50 million years ago the Earth was 14C hotter than it is today. Totally NORMAL.
WBraun

climber
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
^^^^ Says the guy who was there with his thermometer ^^^^^^
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
says the guy who wouldn't know a geothermometer if it were crammed up his ass.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
Oh, it's gonna take a miracle...[Click to View YouTube Video]

And 106% sounds like one.

Care to share your secret?

You fellers are starting to get irrigated with one another.

That's no way to live.

It's time to tighten belts again, like in the mid-seventies with the gas crunch and the late seventies with the huge drought.

Life would not be worth crap if all was halcyon seas and salad days.

I'm glad we got folks like Chief to help us bail and folks like Dingus who can tell us how long we may need to bail...

This dry, too, shall pass,
The changes, though, will last and last.

Subsidence does not go away. Fact.
Deep wells do not recharge fast here. Fact.

It's a State of Change, after all. But you can only make so many changes before you ruin everything. We have paved a lot of parking lots so far, more than we'll ever need.

We've pumped way too much groundwater, more than we ever should have, mostly in the name of greed (read "survival," whether you are a big or a small farmer--y'all are equally guilty. You really do need that big-ass Ram to drive to the Elks every Tuesday and to haul your roping horse, huh?)

Dipshits...

You can't tell things are changing day to day, but they do. It takes a lifetime (forty years, to use a biblical metaphor) to notice them, or a career in the field of water conservation & use, or related ones.

So keep yelling and yammering about who's right. Everyone's curious about that issue, especially.

You could just take that conversation over to the Sidetrack Bar and it would be nice.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
I'm 100% self-reliant... I go to the store and pick up all the food I want... all by myself!
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
Care to share your secret?

(((((((the terlet drains back into the well))))))))
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 8, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=677582175634364&set=a.204261386299781.49442.156316434427610&type=1&theater

some interesting objective data on the drought.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
when you are 100% self-reliant

Dug that thar well with me own two hands, I did!
With a shovel and pick axe I fabbed, with ore I mined, with me own bare hands!

You wouldn't know self-reliant if it bit you in your Uncle Sam provided paycheck.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Apr 8, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Yeah, I saw those pictures you posted the other day, DMT, the ones showing the paltry Sierra snowpack.

We're screwed. This is super serious.

We'll really start feeling it this fall when California harvests fail to come in, or come in with greatly reduced yeilds. Get ready to start spending a lot more of your paycheck on food. Expect the quality to go down, as well.

Time to get your garden in order . . .
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 8, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
Right, it is a moot point... just because you acquire the fruits of another person's labor doesn't mean you aren't self-reliant. Just because you are provided food, water, weapons, protective gear, etc etc etc doesn't mean you aren't self-reliant. I dress myself (usually), drive myself to the store (sometimes), and buy my own groceries (using welfare checks)... totally self-reliant.

You actually have money ANtichristwes???

Yep, I inherited it all by myself... just like you and your well.






(actually, I don't have much. with a jew-ish gf, a frugal life-style, and a few sound investments I'm able to eek by on ~$5-10K a year. never once received welfare or unemployment benefits... although clearly I could)
WBraun

climber
Apr 10, 2014 - 10:33am PT
I drank some Californian water yesterday.

It didn't feel or taste dry.

Therefore the drought must be a hoax .......
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 15, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
I'm pitying the small farmers who will get squeezed out of business. Folks like the Pistachio and pomegranate thieves will continue to pay off democrats to steal your water so as to be picking up the honest farmers land and equipment for a song at auction. (Here's a pro democrat/pro business look at the Resnicks to get you started if you are interested http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_47/b4204068352545.htm); Meantime, what it will mean to you in a Arizona State University study about to be released in a Wall Street journal article called "Attention Shoppers: Fruit and Vegetable Prices Are Rising ":

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/04/15/attention-shoppers-fruit-and-vegetable-prices-rising/?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsFifth

Short version:


I suspect that the administration will now pull Fruits and veggies out of the inflation index so that they can continue to state that inflation isn't a problem. LOL. Right, and I have a bridge to sell you. Long version, there will be rumblings throughout the Ca economy and real estate market. {Some of which might not even be noticed if Silicon valley keeps kicking ass and picks up the slack I'll admit)



Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:29am PT
^^^
Hmm. I don't see arugula, tuscan kale, or boutique heirloom endive on that list. So I guess us Coastal Elite Limousine Libruls will be just fine.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:36am PT
I don't see rice anywhere on that list either. Strange, seeing as we've been told the state's water is mainly used to grow rice in the desert.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:39am PT
What is strange about an easily preservable global staple crop, most commonly sold in a dried state, not having the same pricing impacts as one commonly sold fresh?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:42am PT
Remember the Great Rice Crisis Of '08?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 16, 2014 - 05:48am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Yer a quack-up, DMT, the gourmand! :0)

Suffer, gourmet grocery shoppers. Duck prices will likely rise, right along with rocket and frisee.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 16, 2014 - 11:31am PT
Really Chaz... growing rice in a desert? Which desert?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:01pm PT

if you read the drought operations plan, the most striking thing about it, is that it doesn't mention groundwater. (or rather, the phrase, "ground water," appears twice but only in asides.)

no cali politician is going to touch groundwater regulation. feinstein is in bed with resnicks and westlands almonds, the dem leadership is hoping to turn more valley districts purple or even blue, and the republican "fiscal conservatives" are demanding tax increases for new big govt projects to subsidize agribusiness.

the brown admin is trying to force the courts to step in on groundwater so that jerry doesn't have to make any difficult political choices. that was also his strategy in the first term, with prop 13. didn't work out well that time, either.

we've had 1 foot per year subsidence down below modesto. that was with water delivers and probably a thousand or so fewer wells.

what do you think subsidence is going to look like this year?



couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 16, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
Well, you have some huge agribusiness to contend with and not just Resnicks slipping a few bucks into your politicians pockets. Cargill and Archer Danile Midlands are big players in the rice market in California. They own the water and the land. Which they can choose what to do with it, and rice is the game they choose.

Crop water needs ---> http://www.fao.org/docrep/s2022e/s2022e02.htm . Some rice info http://californiaagriculture.ucanr.edu/landingpage.cfm?article=ca.v047n03p5&fulltext=yes

And remember, if you are looking for boogiemen or want to play the blame game, that feedlots use a lot more water than rice.

Here's hoping you get some serious rain yet. "April showers bring May flowers" it's said.

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 19, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
It hasta be.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:11am PT
Suzie Creamcheese is hawt!
MisterE

climber
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:17am PT
Monoculture is the bane of the agricultural revolution.

Just ask the bees.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 20, 2014 - 03:29am PT
I thought Mono culture was based on flies.

WTF?

(Water the food.)
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Apr 20, 2014 - 03:50am PT
http://greywateraction.org/content/requirements-no-permit-systems-california

Anyone wanna help pull up some lawn tomorrow? There are some other plants that should come up too, need to mulch the new fruit trees, break come flagstone, etc. Have been known to pay a living wage..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 20, 2014 - 10:55am PT
Thanks for the grey water link. I've been known to put in an honest day's work for pay... although I could only do it Tues and it would have to be fairly close to Sac.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 20, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Mr Milktoast writes:

"The much huffed 'wet april' is a dud."



That's OK. Summer's coming. Summer's our new rainy season.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Apr 20, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Thanks Wes. Unfortunately, work is in Santa Cruz. Anyone got any links or experience with cisterns? What about a septic tank? It seems like a couple of rain barrels won't really cut it in the long run.

Also, we may be re-modeling. Since the roof, gutters, and french drain, (which currently pumps to the curb), will be replaced, I wonder if we can get a cistern going.

Got a lead on a hand pump? I never could mantle, if i cut the handle in half ... gotta work, good day all
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 24, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
Pee in the Aquaduct - that will show them in LA when their lawn turns yellow - they'll blame the dog and June Lakers will be scott free hee hee!

klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 24, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
no cali politician is going to touch groundwater regulation.

yer an idiot. fran pavley is introducing a groundwater reg bill. pretty much a sign of the apocalypse.

http://blogs.kqed.org/science/2014/04/22/california-edging-closer-to-regulating-groundwater-for-the-first-time/

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml;jsessionid=ea486a97d84365f59b5baefd0f56?bill_id=201320140SB1168
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 26, 2014 - 11:31am PT
Yesterday in Chico..it rained holy buckets ...Every little bit of precip helps.
Looking purdy in Yosemite.
Lassen looking good too...
John M

climber
Apr 26, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
this is going to help the flowers go off in May..

we got about an 1.25 inches also plus it snow a couple of inches..
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Apr 26, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
Nice little storm. Probably will feed more fuel growth, big fires coming. Nice flowers for sure.

Dams are still low, no? The snow will mostly sublimate in the next few weeks, ground will stay dry, I fear. Never dry wells still dry.

Matt via redding,ca
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 1, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
Six Inches of pouring rain last night and nothing leaked.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 2, 2014 - 11:33am PT
tx dmt

here's the actual report-- it dramatically understates the problem. for a start, we do no monitoring and have no data for most of the basins in the state. we have some data for only 1/3 of the highest pumping basins in the state. and this report, remarkably, does not even attempt to survey rates of well permitting and drilling, which by most accounts have surged in the last few years. that's why many of the pretty maps have weird holes around places like, say, eastern stanislaus.

http://www.water.ca.gov/waterconditions/docs/Drought_Response-Groundwater_Basins_April30_Final_BC.pdf

still useful-- some data is better than none, but most of the real info in this is coming from usgs and other sources.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 2, 2014 - 11:44am PT
Ground water reform you say? When does the mandatory condom use kick in?
I know, we can't talk about that.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 2, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Thank you. Sadly, that is a topic no politician will ever bring up.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 2, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Living in the greater Sacramento area affords our newspaper a lot of statewide political news that the average news reader elsewhere might miss.

that's true, although the modbee and, occasionally, fresnob have been far better than sac on covering and explaining water issues.

one of the things that stand out about that report's highlight of eldo, placer and nevada counties, is that a high percentage of capitol insiders either live or have 2nd homes in those areas.

basically, all the folks who actually live near the water-- folks in the mountains and foothills --are going to end up drinking sand.


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 3, 2014 - 02:15am PT
spent the past week as dive sup for maintaining the Santa Cruz fresh water supply reservoir

i don't want to piss off our customer...but i can tell you that the situation is much worse than the public knows anything about...
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 13, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Who would want to live in "Sakeramento, California," anyhow?

I put this link on The Flames thread, too, printed out.
http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/05/10/3921042/drought-afflicts-almonds.html
Very good journalism, in my book.

This really dovetails with my angst and bitterness about pistachios and other nuts going in on former range land around the foothills of the east side of the SJV, where, again, the water is co-opted by irrigation districts and there is (likely) more groundwater being pumped to keep these newer orchards alive than we know.

I'm not certain, but pistachios are a "quality" nut, like the almond in many minds.


Anyway, in fairness to the farmers and their families, here's some adverts from the eighties you'll remember, and some food for thought:
How many of the featured products do YOU buy? I buy literally none of them, though I have had Kudos at Halloween and Almond Joy is God's Diet Food, we all know.
[Click to View YouTube Video]A single ad a day, a six-pack every night, and a can a week of almonds, that's all they ask.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 13, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
The mountains are very dry in SoCal. The pines are stressed and starting to die. So far no PCT hiker has started a conflagration with an alcohol stove, it's a miracle.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 13, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
No drought in Ouray. Eight inches of snow on the deck this morning and above normal snow pack.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
May 13, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
So far no PCT hiker has started a conflagration with an alcohol stove, it's a miracle.

It is just a matter of time. Alky stoves are a great lightweight item, but it doesn't take much of an f-up to start a fire.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 14, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
welcome to fire season.

best to ron g and everyone else in harm's way down south.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 14, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
Rainfall on the Skyline Ridge 1 mile south of Castle Rock
Aug through July
2011-2012 24"
-2013 27"
-14May2014 15"
Prior to the past three seasons, the rainfall has averaged about 40"
Likelihood of significant rain between now and June 30 is low even in a good year.
On June 9 2012 we got 2/3". The only rain we got from through July
I won't be surprised if 15" is all we get this season.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 15, 2014 - 11:01am PT
so the LA Times reports that a new study of groundwater and earthquakes in the Central Valley suggests that groundwater pumping is triggering earthquakes.

Haven't read the study yet (the papers never link them), but the story is here:

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80204882/
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 15, 2014 - 11:09am PT
It's nice to be outside in the evenings and not feed the mosquitoes. I don't think I've been bit once this year.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 15, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
Few mosquitos indeed. Also very few birds.
Coyotes, foxes and snakes are coming right up to our houses searching for food.
I'll take the mosquitos.

Not that I have a problem with coyotes, foxes and snakes, it's an indication of their lack of food.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 18, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
A passage from Half Broke Horses, a novel by Jeannette Walls.

To live in a place where water was so scarce made the rare moments like this—when the heavens poured forth an abundance of water and the hard earth softened and turned lush and green—seem magical, almost miraculous. The kids had an irresistible urge to get out and dance in the rain, and I always let them go and sometimes joined them myself, all of us prancing around, arms upraised, as the water beat down on our faces, plastering our hair and soaking our clothes.

Afterward, we all ran down to the draws that led to the . . . dam, and once the first rush of water had passed, I’d let the kids strip off their clothes and go swimming. They’d stay out there for hours, paddling around, pretending to be alligators or dolphins or hippopotamuses. They had a heck of a time playing in the rain puddles, too. When the water sank through the soil and all that was left was mud, they’d keep playing, rolling around until everything but the whites of their eyes and their teeth was plastered with mud. Once the mud dried, which didn’t take long, it sheared right off, leaving them pretty clean, and they got back into their clothes.

Sometimes over supper, when Jim got home after a storm, the kids would describe their escapades in the water and mud, and Jim would recount his vast store of water lore and water history. Once the world was nothing but water, he explained, and you wouldn’t think it to look at us, but human beings were mostly water. The miraculous thing about water, he said, was that I never came to an end. All the water in the earth had been here since the beginning of time, it had just moved around from rivers and lakes and oceans to clouds and rain and puddles and then sunk through the soil to underground streams, to springs and wells, where it got drunk by people and animals and went back to rivers and lakes and oceans.

The water you kids were playing in, he said had probably been to Africa and the North Pole. Genghis Khan or Saint Peter or even Jesus himself might have drunk it. Cleopatra might have bathed in it. Crazy Horse might have watered his pony with it. Sometimes water was liquid. Sometimes it was rock hard—ice. Sometimes it was soft—snow. Sometimes it was visible but weightless—clouds. And sometimes it was completely invisible—vapor--floating up into the sky like the souls of dead people. There was nothing like water in the world, Jim said. It made the desert bloom but also turned rich bottomland into swamp. With it, we’d die, but it could also kill us, and that was why we loved it, even craved it, but also feared it. Never take water for granted, Jim said. Always cherish it. Always beware of it.

(I could say some of the same thing about love. Is water a sign of the love of a creator? Or was he just practical?)
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 18, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
Castle Rock falls yesterday.
Just a splash of water. Like the end of October in a dry year.
(for those who don't know, the Bay area gets virtually no rain from end of May to late October.
We might get 1 or two summer thunderstorms. Which are usually insignificant compared to even a medium Rocky Mtns thunderstorm
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 20, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
It wasn't much, but it was something.....enough rain in Chico.. to water my plants and have a lightning & thunder show.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 20, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
so the LA Times reports that a new study of groundwater and earthquakes in the Central Valley suggests that groundwater pumping is triggering earthquakes.

I was troubleshooting a well up in Big Bear yesterday, kept turning pump on and off. Thought someone backed into the pump house.

OOPS!
LOL
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 27, 2014 - 09:37pm PT

And now this:
http://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/ag-environment/as-central-valley-fog-disappears-fruit-nut-crops-decline/

Which is what I have been saying since the early eighties when I moved back to the fog-hole which is fast becoming a smog-bog.

It brings to mind a trip to Yosemite Valley in 1970, in late winter, with the Rev, myself, and two of the Flames, Mark McAllister and John Yeates.

Yeates' dad owned a car rental franchise and needed four cars driven somewhere from Fresno. John picked us all up in Merced in one of his dad's rentals, one which was being sent back to the original franchise.

We finished our climbing on Sunday afternoon, drove to Fresno, picked up the other three vehicles and took off up the 99 and the 152 in then-typical dense fog.

We stayed in convoy, at night, drove at 60 steady, and no worries because we had a system: two taps on the brakes from the lead car told us he was slowing down, while a series of high beam flashes indicated, "I'm speeding back up."

John took another vehicle bound for Merced when we got to wherever (San Jose, I think, maybe SF) and drove the Rev and I and Mark to Monterey, where we lived--good old Apathy House on 16th in Pacific Grove. Then he and Mark boogied on back to Merced that morning.

We got to get PAID as well as have transportation.