Does the Access Fund have the guts to preserve desert routes

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Messages 61 - 80 of total 127 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Dec 14, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
Ron, serious question here. Its SAND stone. How can one truly "protect" soft rock? Ive seen the beaks, the nailing, the cam grooves and such. Seems most ANYTHING disturbs that stuff.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
The only absolute is a well enforced ban.

What I would like to see is substantial mitigation as well as consideration for future generations of climbers Ron. Go back and read the second John Doe model again.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Dec 14, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Re-read, and you ask for MUCH in the way of co-operation and regulation. I see DOLLARS in that future as in expense of regulatory agencies. Honor systems seem weak these days. Pretty hard question to get a viable answer too.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Don't we ask for MUCH from hunters in the way of co-operation, regulation and money?
crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 14, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
Steve,
you make it sound as though Zion and IC are the only places to worry about.

They are not the only places to worry about.

But, they are the only places where, in 2013, there is the remotest chance of getting buy-in from desert climbers on any kind of proposal that restricts (or "cramps") climbers in doing whatever they want. Or in doing what they want but paying for the privilege (and cramping numbers that way).

It can be done. In the early 1970s Chouinard managed to get buy-in for clean climbing, to all US climbers, almost overnight.

Heuco Tanks has a mandatory video presentation and various other hoops to jump through and have reduced impacts enormously. Not sure this has buy-in from climbers, but is mandatory, so it sort of does.


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Do you remember what it was like to pound pins for pro on free climbs?

Climbers didn't "buy in" as much as they wimped out. Nutting is just easier.


They won't buy into my model either.
Either a wise land manager forces them into it or, far more likely, there will be a combination of a string of tragedies caused by blown placements along with obvious visible impacts that causes an outright ban someplace.

Only once people lose something do they appreciate what they had. Only then will climbers be willing to compromise.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Dec 14, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Yep Ron,, hunters by in large take care of their resource through regulation by each and every state AND the USFWS. Armies of game wardens and USFWS agents patrol and help keep those regulations in tact. And hunters dole out $$$$$$$$ every year to see that it all keeps going.

So not only a wise land manager is required, but so is the FUNDING to achieve the field results. That can come only from one source,, climbers.

Entance fees, climbing fees and the whole nine.. I think in many areas,, such things will be the inevitable future. If not outright closures.

But i do know DOLLARS will be at the point of the issues.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Trivia;

What gun gave use the expression "the whole 9 yards"?

The Vickers machine gun was so reliable in WW1 that when the germans tried mass assaults from their trenches the brits would shoot entire belts without stopping. The belts were 27' feet long, and their fellow brits would cheer them on saying, "Give 'em the whole nine yards!"
crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 14, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
Not sure about the nine yards and WWI guns derivation...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/27/books/the-whole-nine-yards-seeking-a-phrases-origin.html

Thread drift, sorry.

I think the point I was trying to make is that you won't get buy-in on 100 percent of your proposal for the entire desert. No way. Never.

But you can most certainly get buy-in for some part of the proposal, in some specific parts of the desert where is it clear to any reasonable person that the impacts you are concerned about are happening. Climbers try to do the right thing, if some peer pressure is applied. Back when i climbed El Cap a few times in the early 1980s the idea of carrying one's feces up the climb would have been kinda preposterous. Now it's normal and expected.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Just because a newspaper referred to the "whole six yards" in 1912 doesn't negate my etymology.

I like it much more than the concrete truck, which would have come later anyway.





And I think that climbers would rather carry their own shlt for days before before paying for what was previously free. They'd be as resistant as hunters a century ago.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Dec 14, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
ONCE A CLIMB IS DESTROYED IT CAN'T BE BROUGHT BACK.

Bears repeating.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
I didn't even know bears could talk.
;)


edit
What was I thinking?
Yogi
Booboo
Smokey
Winnie
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Dec 14, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Eventually we'll have The Incredible Fist Crack and Pente will be perfect golds. Seems unavoidable. Crack size is a management impossibility.

I'm more interested in mitigating ecological and social impacts...which the Access Fund is at least working towards.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 14, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
Eventually we'll have The Incredible Fist Crack and Pente will be perfect golds. Seems unavoidable. Crack size is a management impossibility.

Excellent. Nicely put.

Somewhere between Ron's proposal that we adopt, forthwith, a pay-per-piton, pay-per-climb fee approach (which would be very effective, if unpopular) and fluffy's depressingly fatalistic "there's nothing we can do" (which is what we all do now and we all know is far from optimal) is some kind of happy medium that will slow down damage while getting buy-in from the climbers who are affected.

How do we find that compromise?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Fluffy,
The first part of that sounds too fatalistic to me.

And I don't think tourists want to view rocks where all the cracks look like runnels and have varnish worn off and replaced with shoe black. In Utah tourism is the major industry, and land managers would step in.

I'm advocating a system that would extend the lives of the routes, conserve for future use, but still rewards high achievers BEFORE a manager goes for the easy fix, a flat out ban.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Dec 14, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Have a voluntary closure like At Devils Tower.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 14, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Is it just me or am I seeing a consensus building that for at least some fragile routes there is support for well thought out moderate restrictions?

Climbers have self restricted in many ways over the years. We can do it if the need is obvious.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Dec 14, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Do you remember what it was like to pound pins for pro on free climbs?

Climbers didn't "buy in" as much as they wimped out. Nutting is just easier.

yeah, that's probably right. esp after cams. and double especially once we all decided pitons were bad but bolts were ok.

a desert sticker/stamp like hunters have strikes me as a reasonable and (comparatively) easily enforceable option for front country climbs in places like zion, or maybe the pop areas at ic. proceeds could get used to help fund visible kinds of projects-- trail regulation, for instance, or anchor-fixing.

limiting numbers of total ascents sounds like an administrative nightmare. and i wouldn't be at all crazy about having NPS get back into the business of formally evaluating climber competence (i.e., bonus luxury line for hard men or locals or whatever.)

much easier to regulate new ascents-- the dresden model would be one way to go. fontainebleau would be another. they both work well enough for their different areas. but neither does much with existing routes.

paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Dec 15, 2013 - 01:16am PT
so can i bong my way up supercrack or is that in bad taste ? i'm still supposed to lead it naked based on a lost bet years ago...giving a whole new meaning to the 'crack' part...

(jk btw, please don't shoot me...)
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Dec 15, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Steve I am flattered that you would suggest me starting a "Friends of Zion". I haven't done much climbing there at all, too many people, too many climbers. I like the obscure areas.

Ron it's good you keep bringing these ideas to the table. It's clear from the Glen Canyon solution that if we leave it up to the Feds we typically lose. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of faith in much of the younger generation of climbers. They seem to be far more interested in their point score on mountain project or blogging about themselves to be concerned with the natural resource. Still, the concepts regarding conservation of sand climbs are worthy of discussion.
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