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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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I didn't even know bears could talk.
;)
edit
What was I thinking?
Yogi
Booboo
Smokey
Winnie
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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Eventually we'll have The Incredible Fist Crack and Pente will be perfect golds. Seems unavoidable. Crack size is a management impossibility.
I'm more interested in mitigating ecological and social impacts...which the Access Fund is at least working towards.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Dec 14, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
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Eventually we'll have The Incredible Fist Crack and Pente will be perfect golds. Seems unavoidable. Crack size is a management impossibility.
Excellent. Nicely put.
Somewhere between Ron's proposal that we adopt, forthwith, a pay-per-piton, pay-per-climb fee approach (which would be very effective, if unpopular) and fluffy's depressingly fatalistic "there's nothing we can do" (which is what we all do now and we all know is far from optimal) is some kind of happy medium that will slow down damage while getting buy-in from the climbers who are affected.
How do we find that compromise?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
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Fluffy,
The first part of that sounds too fatalistic to me.
And I don't think tourists want to view rocks where all the cracks look like runnels and have varnish worn off and replaced with shoe black. In Utah tourism is the major industry, and land managers would step in.
I'm advocating a system that would extend the lives of the routes, conserve for future use, but still rewards high achievers BEFORE a manager goes for the easy fix, a flat out ban.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 14, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
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Have a voluntary closure like At Devils Tower.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 14, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
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Is it just me or am I seeing a consensus building that for at least some fragile routes there is support for well thought out moderate restrictions?
Climbers have self restricted in many ways over the years. We can do it if the need is obvious.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 14, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
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Do you remember what it was like to pound pins for pro on free climbs?
Climbers didn't "buy in" as much as they wimped out. Nutting is just easier.
yeah, that's probably right. esp after cams. and double especially once we all decided pitons were bad but bolts were ok.
a desert sticker/stamp like hunters have strikes me as a reasonable and (comparatively) easily enforceable option for front country climbs in places like zion, or maybe the pop areas at ic. proceeds could get used to help fund visible kinds of projects-- trail regulation, for instance, or anchor-fixing.
limiting numbers of total ascents sounds like an administrative nightmare. and i wouldn't be at all crazy about having NPS get back into the business of formally evaluating climber competence (i.e., bonus luxury line for hard men or locals or whatever.)
much easier to regulate new ascents-- the dresden model would be one way to go. fontainebleau would be another. they both work well enough for their different areas. but neither does much with existing routes.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Dec 15, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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so can i bong my way up supercrack or is that in bad taste ? i'm still supposed to lead it naked based on a lost bet years ago...giving a whole new meaning to the 'crack' part...
(jk btw, please don't shoot me...)
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Dec 15, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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Steve I am flattered that you would suggest me starting a "Friends of Zion". I haven't done much climbing there at all, too many people, too many climbers. I like the obscure areas.
Ron it's good you keep bringing these ideas to the table. It's clear from the Glen Canyon solution that if we leave it up to the Feds we typically lose. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of faith in much of the younger generation of climbers. They seem to be far more interested in their point score on mountain project or blogging about themselves to be concerned with the natural resource. Still, the concepts regarding conservation of sand climbs are worthy of discussion.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2013 - 11:33am PT
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This dialogue has given rise to a correspondence with Brady Robinson at the AF, but little has been resolved.
The thing I would like to point out is that in one day a homophobic redneck has generated 3 times the posts on this forum than an issue that goes to the core of our raison d'etre has in weeks.
Future climbers will curse you guys.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 20, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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Climbing is, after all, a meritocrasy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 20, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
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Future climbers will curse you guys
Not to put too fine of a point on it but it seems like you might be
addressing the wrong demographic, n'est ce pas? However, you may be
correct inasmuch as the younger demographic probably does not contribute
overly much to the AF, at least on a per capita basis. I hope I am wrong.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 20, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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And knott the FAs, TV? We, the younger folk, did not open Pandora's Box, merely fail to close or manage it...
I feel that the erosive nature of many desert climbs are what keep them worthwhile, help stave off their dilution to the fairly predictable, reliable cattle trail effect occurring on big popular mountains like Everest. Routes change, will always change, and whether or not we institute a more rigorous allotment/pay-per-abuse/use system, they will continue to fall apart. I just don't see total preservation in their current or more virginal state to be feasible. These towers and cliffs will eventually fall down of their own accord you know. That said, I hate rope grooves and greased-out cracks just as much as the next man.
I DO think, though, that we ought to elect (or maybe some of the old codgers can delegate) small groups of folks familiar with all trade routes in a given area and impose upon them the burden of at least monitoring changes, documenting problem spots of high wear, so that we as climbers can call in the dread guvmint to enact mandatory protections in the event of a crucial feature teetering on the edge of oblivion. This is where climbing rangers, park liasons, can be most effective: as little as I trust the fed to manage my rock climbs, I think that most climbers recognize that climbing rangers better than your average guvmint bear at addressing and meeting the needs of both climbers and resource preservation.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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I don't trust the Fed either.
(and I'm not too fond of state government also)
However, with the hunting model, the individual states have done a fair job of educating, licensing, enforcing, and ultimately conserving.
Climbers are more challenged because cumulative wear does not repair itself.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 20, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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I don't trust the Fed either.
(and I'm not too fond of state government also)
However, with the hunting model, the individual states have done a fair job of educating, licensing, enforcing, and ultimately conserving.
Climbers are more challenged because cumulative wear does not repair itself.
most of the popular desert routes are on federal land. it's going to have to be the fed. The initiative, lobbying, and guidance could come from AF and engaged locals, but that's probably as far as the hunting analogy will take us.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 20, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Maybe someone with Friends of Indian Creek can help me out, but who in the local BLM office is most responsible for communicating with the pertinent climber's coalition? I doubt that any dedicated climbing ranger exists and I know that this is the case for the BLM lands around Grand Junction. Same for NPS lands in my neck of the woods: no one individual at CO Nat'l Monument is tasked with climber liaison or management. This is problematic and suggests that self-policing is really the only path to the goal of preservation here.
Full-circle edit: this is why TV suggests a primary role for the AF in this issue.
EDIT: Bkay - it's okay because TV will always be armed to da teef to defend himself 'gainst any potential preservationist tyranny. (sarcasm)
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Dec 20, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
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Are some climbers here really advocating for government restrictions for climber-worn cracks? Really?
I would think a few minutes on google earth would put climber impacts in perspective.
This is a climbers issue to be addressed by education and rehab/ conservation events which the access fund already does.
There are other organizations to give your money (Center for Biological Diversity, etc.) if you want to "preserve" public lands. But unless you like only looking at pretty cliffs from the road, please don't.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 20, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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Climbing is, after all, a meritocracy.
I don't use acronyms lightly but LOfickingL
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Dec 20, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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I like the idea of a stamp / sticker that klk suggested. Watch the educational video, pay the fee, get the stamp, go climb.
I think the hunting analogy works well in this scenario. As a sportsmen (hunter / fisherman), I spend several hundred dollars a year just on permits / tags / etc. to recreate (boat / hunt / fish). You want your boat on Powell? $30, plus the entrance fee (I believe I pay $60 a year to fish Powell).
About 17 years ago, I worked with the USFS Wilderness Ranger and the Access Fund to produce an educational brochure / bulletin board for a local area, Paradise Forks. Of course there is no way to tell if it made any impact, but I tend to believe that the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to make good decisions. I'll try and post a scan up when I get back from the lake. Have a fun weekend everyone.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
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Education and self policing can only go so far.
I know people who, although highly ethical climbers, who have gotten sketched out and not only start paddle footing and hammering nuts, but even have cut holds on established climbs!
Human history is studded with examples of people using up resources.
I doubt climbers have the wisdom to do differently.
But as for fed/state;
don't the states enforce hunting laws on federal lands?
Now, even the national parks allow state issued CCW holders.
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