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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Feb 21, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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+1 DMT, that's why I stopped drawing topos and reporting climbs years ago.
Interesting analysis, crunch.
What if there were to be a voluntary $15 / year to climb on the Colorado Plateau, $25 to establish new routes. Have a publicity campaign where even the cheapest, lamest dirtbags buy into the program. The money goes into a fund, say managed by the Access Fund. When a certain amount is reached, perhaps $1000, establish a grant for a well educated and concerned climber to spend three weeks climbing and documenting climber resource damage in a park (Zion). Have this person arrange a meeting with resource managers to discuss their thoughts on climbing management. In the end have the grant climber establish a report on their findings. Not sure if this idea makes sense yet, it's something that bounced around my brain for a while. (And no, I am not looking for a new job as a climbing bum).
I like Toker's idea of a lottery system, much like hunting. For instance, in AZ hunters get one chance in their lifetime to kill both a Bighorn Sheep or Buffalo (and they pay big bucks for the tag). It's sad to think it, but one day perhaps in the not too distant future this may be the reality for climbs like Moonlight Buttress (that is if we are still even allowed to climb in Zion).
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 21, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
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Over and over I see reasons NOT to brag about new areas, NOT to report new routes, NOT to encourage climbers to visit these places.
Who brought all those climbers to the desert to begin with? Who helped plant the see of desire for desert towers?
The single most powerful impact would be to stop publishing new route info - anywhere. No hand drawn topos, nothing.
First rule of fight club.
But FA ego is the cause of this erosion, make no mistake about it. And I do not place myself above the fray, I've done it too.
DMT
We actually agree on this DINGUS!!!
Best logical and realistic post on this thread.
Not really. Cat was out of the bag a long, long time ago.
There was a hard lesson learned about secrecy when they made Lake Powell. Years of desert rats keeping the petroglyphs and waterfalls, hidden grottos and incredible beauty of Glen Canyon secret, so as to protect it from outsiders, Fight Club style, backfired when the Govt could say there was nothing worth protecting and flood the entire vast system. Broke David Brower's heart.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 21, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
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Albatross, I really like your idea of creating a video presentation of the damage we are talking about in this thread. That'd be a great first step; showing what damage is being discussed. With a video you can show what damage is being done, how it's being done, how the rock can better be treated.
Funding?
Fees from FAs and for climbing on the Colorado Plateau would be near impossible to collect. Again, there would have to be buy-in by active local climbers (and the guide services?) for any of this to happen. Have the Access Fund or AAC set up a specific fund? Perhaps the guide services could chip in a bit of money per client per climb? Paging the Larry....
EDIT: the AAC has a number of grants available, some might work for just this kind of project:
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/grants
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Feb 21, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
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Both good replies as to the aspect of reporting. We are living in a vastly different world than 1950.
crunch, what about a massive campaign by climbers, through ST, Access Fund, AAC, whoever, basically implying there may be long term use problems with some of our resources and we are looking to investigate this further. If enough well known climbers, guides, groups, organizations bought into it it could work. Somehow get it to the point where climbers feel it is important that they support this cause.
Not to derail this into a sportsmans (hunter / fisher people) battle, but that group realized long ago there were problems with game management and took steps to be proactive. We now have probably the most well managed game population in the world. And these folks pay a lot of money to enjoy their pursuit. In addition, these groups promote honest, legal hunting. Which is something rockclimbers have done a terrible job as far as promoting ethical resource use.
A huge problem I see with a video or photo presentation is the management folks might see this and decide to end all rock climbing in that area. It's a delicate proposal that would need to be handled very carefully, yet if the managers saw that climbers were being proactive it might prove to be beneficial.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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Well I'm glad that people are appreciating the conflicting interests that the thread title implies.
There is another issue where values collide;
paddlefooting behavior.
As climbers we are all about challenging ourselves and pushing our limits, but when many climbers get close to their maximum free climbing abilities they can get sloppy and flail, which can result in rock damage.
Can people be expected to climb well within their abilities to conserve rock?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 21, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
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A huge problem I see with a video or photo presentation is the management folks might see this and decide to end all rock climbing in that area.
Hmmmmm. Good point. Actually, that's why I like the video component of the presentation idea. If any random concerned climber goes to meet a random land manager, who knows where things will go.
But a good video controls the message.
It should firmly establish a strong, historic legacy tying climbing strongly to the park in question. It should make clear that climbing is a valuable, valid, long-established use.
In Zion it dates back 46 years to the first ascent of the Pulpit by Eric Bjornstad and Fred Beckey in 1967. Most other parks throughout the West have long connections with climbing and climbers. Canyonlands NP it goes back to 1962 (two years before the park existed). Arches NP Dark Angel, early '60s.
(Other user groups don't have such a strong legacy. That's partly why other human-powered activities like base jumping, slack-lining and mountain biking are treated poorly in the National Park system. We climbers have always been there. We sort of get grandfathered in.)
Anyway, once that's dealt with, the video should illustrate exactly what damage/wear and tear the climbing community want to show and explain why it adversely affects climbers' experiences. There should be suggestions (TK) for improving the experience for future users of the rock. There needs to be specific, easily achievable measures (TK, TK) that land-managers can adopt (or adapt) to better sustain the high-quality recreational values that the park is tasked with promoting.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
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It goes back a lot farther than 46 years crunch.
What about Donald Orcutt? The Crawford cousins on the Steamboat? Glen Dawson? Fritz Weisner?
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Joshua Johnson
Boulder climber
Boulder
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Feb 21, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
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There was one element of the option B model I forgot to mention;if a climber employs constructive scarring effectively on a new route and then does a "confirmation", that is; pulling the rope and releading the pitch without a hammer, then no impact fees for pin use are assessed.
This encourages the creation of clean routes, and discourages blasting out placements.
This whole thread was created so Ron could stroke his short man little ego.
Look at me...look at me...
Snore.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 21, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
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It goes back a lot farther than 46 years crunch.
What about Donald Orcutt? The Crawford cousins on the Steamboat? Glen Dawson? Fritz Weisner?
Doh, sometimes my blatherings about history are paddlefooted flails. Sorry.
I'll go sit in a corner for a while.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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Sorry Steve.
Joshua, your harping on my stature is a complement. For a number of years people who had never met me figured I was 6'+.
Keep it up. It reflects well of you.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Mar 16, 2014 - 09:04pm PT
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It would appear that the Access Fund does indeed have the guts to preserve desert routes.
Ron, I understand you are specifically talking about degradation of the features and protection on sandstone routes, particularly on the Colorado Plateau. This link to the activities is in regards to Christmas Tree Pass, an area where the NPS is seeking to actually remove all climber placed anchors.
Bolt removal proposal at Christmas Tree Pass:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2362839&msg=2365114#msg2365114
Less than a week left to comment on this proposal.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
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Wrong rock.
It was the Chevy on Castleton Tower, and climbers made the lumber into an FU for planes.
look at the virgin cryptogams getting trompted,....
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 17, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
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Over and over I see reasons NOT to brag about new areas, NOT to report new routes, NOT to encourage climbers to visit these places.... Who brought all those climbers to the desert to begin with? Who helped plant the see of desire for desert towers? The single most powerful impact would be to stop publishing new route info - anywhere. No hand drawn topos, nothing.
First rule of fight club.... But FA ego is the cause of this erosion, make no mistake about it. And I do not place myself above the fray, I've done it too.
DMT
Dingus, I used to think you were a curmudgeon about this. But I see now that I just didn't have as much experience to reach the conclusion you reached.
People DO have herd instincts. I think it's not just because they want a safe known experience... it's also because people want to BRAG about what they did, and there are certain rules to increase the effectiveness of that bragging. The people you brag to have to know about the reputation of whatever your conquest is/was. Saying "ho man I did this waay runout rad new climb, probably 5.11c" doesn't sound as cool as "I climbed the Bachar-Yerian but I skipped a bolt." Thus, the guidebooks form the nucleus that creates a common set of knowledge and community reputation that increases the gnar-value of any bragging we do.
So it's the egos of the FA party who publish the info, and the ego of all of us who lay claim to a conquest after the fact. And maybe not just ego as a self-aggrandizing vice, but perhaps in a kinder light it's a more universal desire to be part of the community of folks who have inspired us, shown us the way to do what we do.
We humans have an impact in whatever activity we do, and the more popular it becomes the greater the impact. My personal strategy has been to spread out my impact in less popular places. Same incremental impact, but less noticeable results because of where I choose to make that impact.
I don't think there's a specific right answer, in terms of selectively publicizing areas to concentrate use and impact, versus the viral spreading of impact as a consequence of folks find and developing and publicizing new areas. One thing I do know, after traveling around a lot in the western states and enjoying the scenery: there is such a mind-boggling amount of rock to be climbed all over, there is no need to go traveling far to find something new and great. And there is no risk in the next few generations of running out of lonely and isolated rock if you don't want to see people. In terms of real impact to nature- rope grooves and such are a non-issue for Mother Earth. It only matters to us humans who consider it a climbing resource that changes from our prior expectations. Crack-based plant species and ecosystems, that's another matter. But in the scheme of things, huge storms can wipe out entire vegetated canyons and natural succession begins anew- we climbers really aren't changing much in the world in geologic terms, but it does have an aesthetic consequence to be considered among the rights of other folks who use the same resources.
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