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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
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McHale, don't forget that BITD them Rangers would try to break yer ice
axe on the steps of the permit hut. Some tried harder than others and certain
individuals had theirs tested a tad more rigorously than others. Thank
God the intardnet didn't exist back then - a lot more axes woulda 'failed'.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 21, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
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Here's the facts, as presented by R&I:
There are 5 or 6 rappels (with a single rope).
A pair of bolts was placed at the location of the very lowest anchor (rap #5/6) "several years ago".
In August 2012 a two-bolt anchor at the location of the topmost rappel anchor, and to the "climber's left" of it, to try to direct rappelling climbers away from the worst of the loose gully.
According to R&I, rappels number 2, 3 and 4 did NOT, EVER, have any bolts. None. The victim died pulling the rope on rappel #3. No bolts were involved. There never were bolts anywhere near that rappel. The two sets of bolted anchors that were placed and removed had NOTHING to do with the accident.
QUOTE: "When I asked [Kelly Bush, a ranger] if the climbers would have arrived at a different stance had they rappelled off the anchors Hicks had drilled, she said, “Same gully. They would’ve done the same pull.”
She is right and Jeff Jackson is guilty of a very badly worded, leading question and misleading article, one that implies guilt despite the facts he himself presents in the article. It's hard not to conclude that Jackson did this deliberately, just to get more web traffic, publicity and sales of their magazine.
Which is a real shame, because the use of bolts in wilderness areas is a really important issue that deserves a lot of careful thought, cooperation and understanding between us climbing users and land managers.
Condolences to the family and friends of Tyler Barton.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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That's right Reilly! I did like the advent of the metal handle though. I wonder how much corelation there was there......maybe that's what got Penberthy going on it. I had some conversations with Scott Fischer about the wood handle axe thing and that was when he decided to get switched over to metal handles axes for Mountain Madness. That was around the mid to late 80s.
A pair of bolts was placed at the location of the very lowest anchor (rap #5/6) "several years ago".
In August 2012 a two-bolt anchor at the location of the topmost rappel anchor, and to the "climber's left" of it, to try to direct rappelling climbers away from the worst of the loose gully.
It sounds like these bolts were placed for very rational reasons. Maybe the Ranger can tell us why it was so imperative to remove them. It sounds to me like somebody has a bit of disdain for progress.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
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Under title 36 CFR 261.6H i believe. "damaging ANY natural feature"..
So that means trundling is out now too? What's next, no exhaling near a plant?
And just think of all the ants that get killed by hikers on those trails!
How did they get built?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
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Do you even know which side you are on Ron?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
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Nobody is saying everything shoulder be 'safe'. It is in people's nature to try and solve problems when there are problems and to try and make things safer at least, instead of just sticking their heads in the tallus. You don't seem to realize you where just arguing on the side of chopping rap routes in Yosemite.......and well, everything else.
Technically on ALL federal lands, placing a bolt IS AN ILLEGAL ACT. Under title 36 CFR 261.6H i believe. "damaging ANY natural feature"..
I carefully read the R&I story again and it pissed me off even more. I wonder if Ranger Bush was in on this rescue;
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201209501/Falling-Rock-Triggered-by-Party-Above-Poor-Position-Washington-North-Cascades-Forbidden-Peak-West-Ridge In the article Bush appears to only know of a 2010 incident.
I also find it very strange that somebody involved in Search and Rescue is involved in chopping bolts that were put in to make things safer in that treacherous gulley.
Then there's this which speaks volumes;
Bush mentioned that she’d been meeting with climbing groups and the Access Fund. In reference to the AF she said, “We’ve been having a dialog … well you can’t have a dialog with those guys. We’ve been meeting.”
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 21, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
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As far as the legality of bolting, the NPS, after several years of deliberation, came out with a recent ruling, in June 2013: Director's Order #41:
Key points are (this is shamelessly pasted from Alpinist website) these:
"—The new NPS policy ensures that climbers will not face a nationwide ban on fixed anchors in NPS managed Wilderness.
—Prior authorization for the placement of new fixed anchors is now required in all cases. If authorization is not provided in a park plan, climbers must request permission on a case-by-case basis.
—Authorization is not required to replace anchors in need of maintenance (unless existing local rules apply; check with your park).
—The vast majority of climbers are not likely to experience a significant change under this policy.
—The policy does not allow for the removal of existing routes and anchors without public input through the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process.
—The policy will not lead to a proliferation of bolted climbs in Wilderness."
pasted from:
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web13x/wfeature-directors-order-41
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The idea is to "manage" bolts. To allow bolts as needed for safety. To not allow bolts placed for convenience. To not allow a Wilderness crag to become a sport-climbing crag.
There are details to be worked out, for sure. Each park needs to work out the appropriate balance between safety and convenience. It's up to us to help with this balance. In the case of Forbidden Peak, there is a fairly strong argument for placing a dedicated rappel route away from the loose gully currently used--it's very much a safety issue. But it's 2013: anyone proposing to place such a rap route would need to work with the NPS.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Nov 22, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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Now the whole story seems to be screwed up. It sounds like the author was working off of second-hand information and then got carried away with his imagination. Whoever knows this for sure, what crusher just wrote, should write to R&I and ask them to make a correction. I wouldn't attribute bad motives to him, since a totally screwed up story is destined to backfire. This is the kind of thing that separates bloggers from AP news reporters: fact checking. All I really know about this route is what I saw in the go pro helmet cam a few dozen posts up. It looks like a total chosspile but also a great adventure at that level.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Nov 23, 2013 - 02:06am PT
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It sounds like an accident happened. Why do y'all want to play the blame game?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 23, 2013 - 02:46am PT
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My conclusion: this death was avoidable, and would not have occurred if an overbearing NP Ranger had not taken it on herself to chop a line of rappel bolts placed to create a safe descent.
Total f*#king bullshit Armando!
The first ascent party bushwhacked 10 miles each way from the trailhead and climbed the peak car-to-car in one day. We're talking Pacific Northwest bushwhacking. No god damn bolts then!
Here's a photo from my climb of the W Ridge from 26 years ago, when I lived near Mt. Baker. No god damn bolts then!
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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I was checking out the http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2330615/Rock-and-Ice-Magazine-Irresponsible-Journalism post when I read about this post. I remembered when it was posted and meant to put my two cent in then. Alas I am doing it now.
Several years ago I did Forbidden Peak. When we went in to get our permit I noticed the largest pile of tat I have ever seen. Six feet around and at least four feet high. Maybe bigger.
Climbers from the glory days did not use bolts because there where none. But I bet they tied off blocks and used webbing for the rappels. The tradition continues and I have never seen so much tat on any mountain. It was everywhere! So I guess I understood why there was so much in the office.
We climbed up the West Ridge route to the summit. At the summit we rapped to the north 5 or 6 raps on rotten rock. Down climbing this would have been nuts. We then headed across goat trails on 75 degree dirt. It was by far the scariest part of the climb. With no way to protect the traverse. I believe this is the standard route.
My thoughts on this is that if you want to minimize the tat you need to put in bolts. It is one or the other. Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone. Climbing is not illegal. Its a recognized sport and I am glad the the NPS recognizes this.
Unfortunately it takes an accident like this (regardless of who is at fault) before guidelines are created to insure the safety of our pursuit. It is crucial that the NPS gets informed by the users and user groups like Access Fund. Surely we'll all benefit from a cool headed conversation with the NPS decision groups.
Climbing is a growing sport with more and more joining the field daily. Everyone was a beginner at one point and I am glad I had open minded patient mentors, for the most part, who taught me "the ropes".
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone
No it doesn't. It's the mountains.
Unfortunately it takes an accident like this (regardless of who is at fault) before guidelines are created to insure the safety of our pursuit.
Safety is never assured, especially not in the mountains. No matter where you are, responsibility for safety starts with the person, not with a reliance upon gear placed by others.
I climbed the west ridge of Forbidden in September of 1994. It was my third ever alpine rock climb. I was with two guys who knew little more than I did. We had a bit of an epic from getting benighted on the descent. We rapped the terrible couloir which in late season was full of hard snow and ice and huge moats, and tons of loose rock. At one point we rappelled from a hanging stance off of two ancient fixed pitons, probably Beckey's. We also left some gear at one anchor. The evening concluded with me spraining my ankle in the dark on the glacier and spending until 5 AM groping our way back to camp in the dark, with me barely able to walk. I hobbled out the next day pretty humbled.
I took many lessons away from that long night. None of them involved a sense that the mountain needed to be 'made safer'. I needed more skills and knowledge.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Mark, I appreciate your input. I agree that safety is never assured. That is some of the allure. Nothing wrong with making it safer in my opinion. Whats the alternative? "Sorry kid you can't go there you don't have the experience yet." How else are we going to further our endeavors?
Would you have not hurt your ankle if there was a rap line or you had more skills and knowledge? Experience is great regardless of how its gathered.
"No matter where you are, responsibility for safety starts with the person, not with a reliance upon gear placed by others."
I totally agree, that I am responsible for my safety and to some degree my partner/s. I have never had to be rescued and get myself out of the trouble I got myself into. But when I sport climb rap existing lines or tie off to a bolted anchor I am grateful for the effort of others.. This in my opinion does not lessen the degree of the experience.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Nothing wrong with making it safer in my opinion.
I'm not against safe anchors, and I'm also not "against" bolts- I clip bolts a lot and I support safe anchor replacement and restoration.
But in the backcountry especially, you make it safer by coming prepared to set up your own anchors and make your own decisions and judgments, regardless of what the guidebook, the internet, or your friends tell you. That's it. That mindset, and that skill, are one of the most important foundations of personal responsibility and self reliance in alpine climbing. You make it safer by evaluating what you're given in the environment.
Whats the alternative? "Sorry kid you can't go there you don't have the experience yet." How else are we going to further our endeavors?
Climbing and the mountains are anarchy. There's no rules and no policemen to stop us if we don't have some pre-written set of skills, and there shouldn't be. In the context of this discussion, my answer is, sorry kid if you aren't prepared to place and replace your own rappel anchors when you climb a mountain then you *shouldn't* go, OR, you should pick a partner who has that skill and intuition better developed, i.e. a guide or a mentor, or a patient friend. Or you should just go and accept the consequences of your actions.
Would you have not hurt your ankle if there was a rap line? Experience is great regardless of how its gathered.
I hurt my ankle down on the glacier, long after the rappels. Glacier was bare ice, I dropped my ice axe and chased after it, rolled my ankle with crampons. Really dumb move chasing after falling gear, lots of people have died doing this sort of thing. The only thing it had to do with the weird devious descent I had just completed was that I was tired and strung out. I never made the connection that the lack of a sanitized descent route was the cause. And I still don't.
And thankfully. Because what this did was heighten my awareness and senses in the mountains. It's part of the learning curve.
"No matter where you are, responsibility for safety starts with the person, not with a reliance upon gear placed by others."
I totally agree, that I am responsible for my safety and to some degree my partner/s. I have never had to be rescued and get myself out of the trouble I got myself into. But when I sport climb rap existing lines or tie off to a bolted anchor I am grateful for the effort of others.. This in my opinion does not lessen the degree of the experience.
I too am grateful for the work that other people put into crags and walls in places like Yosemite. But these are- in my humble opinion- practice areas for the big mountains.
I make the distinction that convenience is for the crags. Obviously, popular routes are destined to get established rappel lines. I acknowledge that it makes little difference whether one is rapping off of bolts, or bomber horns, or bomber pins.
The only reason I am commenting on this is the notion that chopped bolts are directly responsible for this accident. I think that's a specious argument. Rockfall was the cause, and it could have happened where the bolt line had been, I know people who have been hit in that area as well, by both natural and human caused trundles.
I just think we are treading on thin ice by trying to establish in any fashion a precedent for aspiring alpinists that anchors and descents in the mountains are worry-free.
You asked "how are we going to further our endeavors?"
In return, I ask you, how are you going to develop the skills you need to engineer a complicated descent off of a Patagonian spire, a Himalayan giant, a Canadian Rockies chosspile, or an Alaskan massif, if you have a mindset that somebody else has, or should have, fixed up the descent for you?
It's wilderness. You're on your own. As it should be.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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you leave your phone in the car when you go climbing now right?
I often do. If there's no cell coverage where I'm going, at least.
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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Only god (and Robbins,Kennedy and Kruk) should chop bolts.
A rap route is going to be established at Pinnacles for good reasons on a trade descent, after much intelligent discussion by the locals.
Leaving god out of it, no bolts should be chopped, by anyone, without the approval of the climbing community first.
If someone was to rap bolt a first ascent at Pinnacles, the community would sanely discus it while they dismembered the bolter. 3 out of 4 times the bolts would remain as a memorial to their passing.
The fun filled climbing community is always right.
duh
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I agree with Mark.
Either deal with the mountains as they are, or take up knitting.
Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone
Was this said by someone who actually climbs? Really?????
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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The real concern I have is if someone climbs a peak expecting, for example, to have rappel anchors and it turns out they have been chopped. If you know this when you start, you can deal with it. The problem is learning about it on the summit if you are not prepared to otherwise rappel off the summit with the gear you have. Whether or not you can make due with what you have is another issue. My concern is that changing the known characteristics of a climb without fair notice to people can create a dangerous situation where it is not necessary. While I am not sure what the solution is, people need to consider the consequences when they chop bolts without regard to others.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone
SLR, you're out of touch, that's the mission statement of the Alpine Chippers and Bolters League.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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The real concern I have is if....
Then that person simply has no business being in the mountains.
Period.
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