Chopped bolts lead to death on Forbidden Peak

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Messages 1 - 112 of total 112 in this topic
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 19, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
This does not sound good. Sounds like meddling to me.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/tnb-death-on-forbidden-peak-was-the-nps-complicit
bergbryce

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
That's a very misleading thread title. The article is a discussion of the possibility, not an outright declaration of what lead to the climbers death.

Maybe add a question mark??
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Interesting.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Not only is this a misleading thread title, but the RNI article is similarly hyperbolic and inflammatory.

Whether those bolts should have been there or not is one question...whether this rap route would have made any difference in this incident is another...this guy's choice to climb the route (given the rap route) is yet another...

Conflating all of this into one issue seems to have the same goal: gather eyeballs for your website.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
You might be splitting hairs. Bolts were removed that made things safer.


Too many people have been hurt up there rapping off loose blocks.

I'm more than willing to add a question mark. How does one edit the title?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
It's impossible to edit the thread titles here.

When I did the West Ridge of Forbidden with my dad in 1985,
I was shocked to see all the rappel slings on the ridge.
I removed every one of them.
We descended the East Ridge, no big deal.
Rocky IV

Social climber
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
You can't edit the title, I guess that you'll forever have to live with the guilt of starting a thread with a misleading title. Along the same lines as the blood on the hands of the bolt choppers...

In all seriousness this really sucks and condolences to the friends and family of the deceased.

The rap route should be reinstalled, that route ain't much of a wilderness experience anyway.
Slabby D

Trad climber
B'ham WA
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Stupid title and thread, great article by Jeff Jackson!

North Cascades National Park behavior in regards to both this particular anchor and to their policy on bolting in general is, if not illegal, at least contradictory to NPS directives.

However no one that I'm aware of has been able to show any evidence that the lack of this particular anchor had anything to do with the fatality. Not sure if the accident was even in the same location.

wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
If you think the descent on the W. Ridge is loose, check out the E. Ridge descent. It's not as bad as all the hype on internet forums, but the three raps that we did were off of blocks (not bolts). And then there is the several hundred feet of third class traversing on rock that is quite loose in places, to get back to the beginning of the E. Ridge.

I think I understand the issues here, but the thread title is over the top. As far as I can tell, rockfall caused the death and anything else is conjecture. That entire peak is a bit on the gnarly side, and while bolted rappels will make the descent more straightforward, they will not necessarily prevent a similar accident in the future.

Clint: you climbed the mountain twice? You rappelled the W. Ridge and removed the tat, and then descended the E. Ridge??
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
When I heard about his climber dying a few weeks ago or whenever it was I had a normal response to it. Seeing this article today changed that. People are attempting to make the descent safer up there and I'm a bit dumbfounded by the actions of the NPS.

Along the same lines of reasoning some have here, maybe we should ban guidebooks because they bring too many people around.....or we should make the roads narrower to slow access. Chopping those bolts was stupid behavior when you consider all of the forces that put people up there.

If the title needs a question mark so badly, maybe Chris can do that. I don't mind at all.
Bad Climber

climber
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Sad accident. Especially when bolts/chains lead to a cleaner route, they should be used. Tat is garbage, but a well placed, painted set of bolts/chains aren't too bad. Anyone who's spent time on the rocks knows this. The park service needs to chill. Set up a permit process as exists elsewhere and just get it done.

BAd
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
SORRY TO HEAR OF IT.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
A few decades back I climbed that route with my brother, and we finished the rap down the gully in the dark.

We bivouaced further down, but the rockfall that we stimualted in the gully continued well into the night. We could hear the cannonades of rockfall in the night and we could see the streams of sparks cascading down the cliff.

I don't remember any god damn bolts for rap anchor. WTF?

Climbing is dangerous. If you can't do it without bolting anchors all over the place, then go somewhere else that is more in line with your abilities and risk assessment. It is total B.S. to blame the NPS.

See all that scree and talus at the bottom? Where do you think it comes from? If you choose to play on that playground, then you alone are responsible for anything that happens to you.

It is sad when anyone dies, especially a bretheren mountaineer.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
wbw,
you climbed the mountain twice? You rappelled the W. Ridge and removed the tat, and then descended the E. Ridge??
We removed the tat on the West Ridge as we climbed up it.
We climbed down the East Ridge without any rappels.
Me and my dad, who was age 59 at the time, climbing in mountain boots.

Some of the things in that article are a bit weird.
For example, it talks about Fred Beckey often placing necessary bolts.
I thought it was common knowledge that Fred was infamous for placing unnecessary bolts!
Like the one bolt on Slesse NE Buttress.
Or the bolt on the first pitch of Inner Sanctum at the Needles.

P.S. I realize that traversing Forbidden may not be the ideal descent for everyone.
The way we did it involved a lot of soloing.
I was surprised to see all those slings, though. They looked like litter on that dry summer day.
I think that loose gully where the guy died was mostly full of snow when we did the climb.
I'm not opposed to a good rappel route when there are good reasons for it.
I am not sure of the particulars on Forbidden.
I definitely used the rap routes on Snowpatch and South Howser.
I scoffed at the Royal Arches rappel route at first. Then I realized it was not such a bad idea (though it has risks). I've used it several times since.
I, I, I, ... must be getting old. :-)
scooter

climber
fist clamp
Nov 19, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Personally, I would feel very guilty if I were the one who removed the bolted rappel stations. The 'tat' nests are way more noticeable, more wasteful and more detrimental to the environment.
Alexey

climber
San Jose, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
me too. Bolt chopping job- the last thing I would take
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Nov 19, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
I do not think it is fair to say that the chopped bolts lead to the death. When the climber was descending, he knew that there were no bolts. It is not like someone chopped them while he was descending. That would have been murder. Rather, the questions are: (1) whether the route would have been more safe with the bolts? and (2) if so, should the bolts should have remained? I think everyone could agree that the answer to the first question is YES.

The second question poses more difficulty. In theory, if we allowed bolts (and not just for anchors) on all climbs in all areas, those climbs would be more safe (putting aside the fact that doing so may draw more climbers, which could counteract the safety gain). However, pure safety is not necessarily the primary goal here. If it was, the parks should require helmets, limit the number of climbers through a permit system, require climbing resumes (like they used to do for Denali climbs), and have everything bolted. Climbing is a dangerous sport. The climber in this case presumably was aware of the risks at that moment. Thus, I must conclude that chopping the bolts did not cause the death. It merely made that particular descent more dangerous at that particular moment (it's not like people were dying there every day).

All of this being said, chopping the bolts on this particular occasion may have not been the best move, nor the most thought-out move. Rather, it appears that it was more instinctual. In an ideal world, the Park Rangers and various Park authorities should be working together with those who use the Parks to develop sound strategy and a game plan that works for everyone. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Nov 19, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Sad for all involved.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 19, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
I can't think of any good reason to force people to descend a gully like that. What's the difference if the rockfall was caused by other climbers or a pulled rope? I'm not in favor of bolts in general but in this case I'd say rebolt it and let people have a safe way to descend.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
CAN 'O' WORMS

Please proceed to debate endlessly and bash the NPS at will.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Sorry if some of you think the title is over the top. I would have added a question mark but could not edit the title, and I don't want to delete my post out of respect for those that made thoughtful posts. This thread is not about a question mark. Although the chopped bolts may not have lead directly to the climbers death, the attitude the NPS is deploying certain can lead to unnecessary future deaths. This climber was not the first to die by being forced to rappel a dangerous route. Dangerous rappel routes are fine on remote mountains that are not popular; we all know climbing is dangerous, but to not let the climbing community solve problems like this is preposterous. Who do the NPS people work for anyway? Who do they think they are? I have seen over-zealous Park employees before. It's not a pretty sight.

Gene

climber
Nov 19, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
There are tons of 'convenience' bolted rap routes in Yosemite. Should they be chopped by the NPS? That would cause a sh#t storm.

RIP Mr. Barton.

g
Dickly

Social climber
KY
Nov 19, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Sounds like the NPS dudes(yes, I can say that with certainty) got in over their head, they probably just wanted to impose their "Authority" over someone just so people would think they may be bad ass climbers who know everything. Kind of like Clints hero Ken Nichols.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Hmm, sounds like you don't know the NPS dudes, or Ken....

It sounds like the NPS folks are reviewing their local policy to see if it really prohibits bolts / fixed installations.

Ken - he has chopped in the past because he hoped it would prevent the 30' high crags (and others) in CT from being grid bolted. Everything there can be easily toproped.

The infamous Rumney chopping happened because a couple of CT guys said they were going to rap bolt one of Ken's favorite toprope routes. He told them not to do it, or they would regret it. They decided to "call his bluff". They bolted the route (Volcanic Eruption), led it, and then chopped the bolts themselves. One of the bolts was even next to a perfect cam placement. Ken thought, "what will hurt these guys the most?" He knew they liked to do the sport climbs at Rumney. So he chopped the bolts on most or all of them. Maybe not the best decision, as it made a lot of people not involved in the CT bolting hate him. But I think he partly felt he had to deliver on his promise to make those guys regret the bolting. They didn't bolt again in CT (at least not for decades).
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
DMT pointed out that the NPS doesn't work for us. That is an understatement. Too bad we can't do anything about it. Couldn't those rangers have found some way to serve the public other than chopping a couple bolts that were probably hard to spot from 10 feet away?
johnkelley

climber
Anchorage Alaska
Nov 19, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
How many thousands of people have descended that peak safely without bolts?

When I brought up the new bolting policy adopted by NCNP in the "law of the first ascent thread" no one seemed to care.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Does 'safely' include close calls?

John, that's a 2,000 post thread right? I only got through 140 of them so far and I was not reading it for Park service bolting policy as much as for ethics and style info, which is what it appeared to be about.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
The thread leads to a good discussion. Clint put up a rap route next to the East Buttress on Middle Cathedral (maybe you can post link Clint as I can't find the thread) that most (maybe not NPS) agree is great for a safer decent off that area. It was a dangerous descent before as it was easy to kick loose stuff off. It's obvious that NPS has different interpretations for different areas. The re-bolting of many climbs in Yosemite is not official yet everyone knows it's happening and who's doing it yet the park, although not officially endorsing it, isn't stopping it. Interpretation of the law will always be whether it's a traffic stop or a safer alternative to a descent.
I agree with up thread post that climbers need to be responsible for themselves when making safety decisions. Most of us know Clint knows what he's doing but we still need to make a decision for ourselves as to what is safe and what isn't
johnkelley

climber
Anchorage Alaska
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
Why does a route that was put up in 1940, that's been climbed by thousands, need bolts added to it?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
John,
I think those bolted rap stations on Forbidden were not on the West Ridge route, but down to the left of the loose approach gully.
Not sure, though - I haven't been there in a long time.

Personally, I'd rather not see bolts in the mountains, but I've used a couple of bolted rap routes (Snowpatch and South Howser). These are a little different than Forbidden, but maybe similar in some ways.
There are lots of rap routes in the Dolomites. (maybe also different).

I felt the same way about the Royal Arches rappel route.
FA in the 30s, and people walked off for decades.
I was fine to descend the Kat Walk / Cathedral Chimney from the East Buttress of Middle, too.
(Except that one time when a huge boulder came down it and nearly snuffed me and my partner.)
I'm still OK to go down it when it doesn't have too much snow. I think even in Yosemite, people should have some "mountaineering skills". But my partner last time really disliked that descent, so I thought - why not make a rap route like the Royal Arches rap route - people seem to be OK with that....

This quote on summitpost may be appropriate:
Selected Climbs in the Cascades writes "There is no easy way off Forbidden Peak." It's true. Many of us have felt that sense of uneasiness on the summit of Forbidden that goes with having completed only half the climb...

Here's one of Steph's photos which shows the general area of the bypass gullies and approach couloir:
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Ed Hartouni brought up a good point as well when he brought up impacts of tat and the like on trees and blocks. The climbing population of "trade" routes has grown exponentially in the last decade and an obviously safe way off, coupled with the benefit of less garbage on the mountain seems justified. Of course the off shoot of adding safer descents is that more people might be inclined to do the routes knowing a safe descent awaits leading to more crowds and less safe conditions due to more crowds. It would be interesting to know how many more climb Royal Arches or The East Buttress knowing they can rappel instead of walk off......
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Manage the resource at a level appropriate to its use...
east side underground

climber
Hilton crk,ca
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
they call themselves " climbing rangers", I call them f*#king tools
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
It would be interesting to know how many more climb Royal Arches or The East Buttress
knowing they can rappel instead of walk off....
Good point.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
What, it's crowded up there now?

No bolts in the whole damn park? Get real!
Oh, and the Park Service can go phuk itself.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 19, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
The official report has not been released, but reading the article this tragic death probably had very little to do with the chopped bolts. This is about a lot of people moving over chossy ground.

There were several references to rockfall triggered by just pulling ropes. The descent route in question goes down a gully below the fall line of the choss. Not sure how chopping bolts has anything to do with it. If the climber had been killed by broken tat or an anchor block that pulled it would be different. If the new rappel line avoided the choss above the gully, that would make a difference, but it is hard to tell that is the case from the article.

I am open to replacing tat infested rappels with bolt anchors, but implying the lack of bolts may have caused this accident is a huge stretch.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
These arguments that say making things safer will lead to more climbers never stopped anyone from making climbing safer. Hey, let's go back to hemp ropes. Did adding seat belts to automobiles crowd the roads? Maybe freeway crowding can be eliminated by getting rid of seatbelts.......better yet AIRBAGS!
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
Nov 19, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
What if you chopped some bolts and someone died because of your plan?
and what if you were on the clock ie getting paid by the public
who you are suppose to serve?
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Nov 19, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Forbidden is SICK!

(gopro vid 7mins in will flip your noodle)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx00_UElRU



klk

Trad climber
cali
Nov 19, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
my old climbing partner soloed w ridge in mountain boots well into his sixties.

given the weather, the choss, the descents, the 50mostcrowded status, and the n00bies, i'm amazed more folks don't come to bad ends there.

there are serious issues to be discussed here, but that article isnt doing any of them.


Trad Larry

Gym climber
Black Canyon, Colorado
Nov 19, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
get over your fear of bolts. it's just a tiny piece of metal in a piece of rock.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 20, 2013 - 12:07am PT
JB, I was gonna say the same thing about Jo- berg or add Eldorado. If you're a real stud you put
a mine in halfway upthe N Face of Jo-berg.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2013 - 12:28am PT
It's funny to think how the NPS filled in the bolt holes in the midst of such deteriorating choss. MT, I like your tastes. Below; Forbidden
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Nov 20, 2013 - 09:15am PT
Tragic, RIP Tyler Burton. Regardless of how you may rationalize the action as anyone of the rangers involved, I wouldn't wish their now haunting decisions on anyone. It's a life sentence for all involved, what a bummer. The family and friends of Tyler are paying the heaviest of the sentences, hope they can find a place to move on.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 20, 2013 - 10:11am PT
ditto Charlie^^^ RIP Tyler. Very sad to read this story. My heart goes out to his family and friends. The park rangers are probably in their own personal hell of regret and emotions. There may be a climber out there who kicked the actual block loose dealing with issues as well.

This was a terrible accident with very unfortunate timing in regards to the the actions by the rangers. I'm not familiar with the route but my husband has climbed it. It sounds like the upper rap anchor was chopped within days of it getting put in so I don't really think there was an expectation of being able to use it. Tyler had likely planned his descent regardless. The new anchor may have prevented him from being in the line of fire once the fatal rock was kicked loose, but we don't know if he would have even used that anchor. The temperament of that particular gully is well known and I think, we, as climbers, have to accept these risks.

The lower anchor at the horn sounds very necessary given the loose block and (from the husbands account) a total lack of alternate egress. Sounds like that one should be replaced. Edit to add: that one's definitely a ticking timebomb of death+ massive lawsuit at this point.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Nov 20, 2013 - 10:18am PT
hey there say, studly... me too...

just sad to hear when things go wrong... :(
for any of the reasons...


hope that the various shares here, help folks, in
whatever areas possible...


*my condolences to the family of tyler--i just saw the name posted...
prayers for you future, as you continue on without him... :(
smith curry

climber
nashville,TN
Nov 20, 2013 - 11:25am PT
I climbed it last year with a friend---We were fortunate to have the mountain to ourselves that day, but on the hike out we ran into many climbers that were part of large guided groups preparing for an assault the next day. How about NPS saying "no" to large commercial guide companies in such an sensitive area as Boston Basin?
ArmandoWyo

climber
Wyoming
Nov 20, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
A thoughtful discussion by Jeff Jackson. My conclusion: this death was avoidable, and would not have occurred if an overbearing NP Ranger had not taken it on herself to chop a line of rappel bolts placed to create a safe descent.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 20, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
^^^Spoken like a true lawyer, Armando.
Happydraggin'

climber
PHX
Nov 20, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
My recollection is that simul-climbing the WR is a good warm up for soloing the traditional decsent which is a pretty long traverse on mostly solid but quite grassy granite ledges with some amount of exposure. I do seem to recall climbing around some snow early on and stemming a nasty, wet, mud-filled gully to regain the ridge before the final portion of the "hike" but agree with others that most of the webbing we saw up there made virtually no sense and amounted to little more than litter (think Matthes Crest). That said, I am no hard man and fully support anything within reason (even within desigated Wilderness) to make descents safer. I don't know that the WR is a good or necessary candidate although there are many other more accessible and popular moderates (think West Crack on Daff Dome) that deserve approriate attention to address what are some "memeorable" -- at least for this old guy -- walk-offs.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 20, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
I agree with Ron Anderson.

On chossy Cascade mountains the odds of an accident are high because of the loose nature of the rock.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 20, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Hey Bruce Kay,

Nicely argued and worded post.

You are right about the problem, which is that in 2013, these once-rarely-climbed mountains are now ascended by ever larger numbers.

I'm not sure I agree about the obvious solution being adding a bolted rappel route.

Why? Because:

The ranger in question stated (upthread, somewhere) that in this case, with bolted anchor removed, the pull on the rope was the same.

Which suggests that this accident would have occurred had the bolts been in.

In which case the person who placed the bolts in question would be the one who might feel, rightly or wrongly, somewhat to blame. (EDIT: After reading the article more closely, it's apparent that the bolts in questions were nowhere near the site of the rappel where the accident happened.)

And the thread title, hypothetically, could have been "Placing bolts lead to death on Forbidden Peak"

I served on the Eldorado Canyon Fixed Hardware Committee for a decade. In that time, the subject of bolting a popular rappel route, the one down the Dirty Deed chimney, the descent from Yellow Spur and nearby routes, came up several times.

We discussed this at great length. Voices were raised. There were obvious plusses: existing raps were from trees, we could direct the rappel line out of the chimney, somewhat.

But we could also see potential problems. There'd be more crowding in this already busy area (several folks have died/been injured/evacuated in and under this area from falling rocks). One or two of the proposed new stances were very small, no room for multiple parties. And how long to make the rappels? Thirty meters gave a better set of stances and locations, but anyone with a shorter rope would be screwed. And the pulled rope would still tend to go into the chimney, especially on a windy day.The kicker was that if we condoned and placed this rap route and then someone using it died, we could be blamed. Or at least feel responsible. Which would be awful. I had no strong feelings, I think I may have voted for it, in fact. But it never did get voted in.

My point is that, as Ron says, there are risks inherent in mountaineering. If we interfere with the status quo, even with the best of intentions, we are responsible for the results, which may not be what we expected.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 20, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
Seems to me they should move the descent out of the bowling alley, regardless of what caused this accident.

The days of of getting on classics in national parks without anyone else around are over aside from the occasional lucky outing.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Nov 20, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
Climbers need to follow the lead of construction and mining who have crews to clean areas of loose, dangerous rock. The high scalers:

"High scaler. Propelling down."

http://www.arizona-leisure.com/hoover-dam-high-scalers.html
http://www.usbr.gov/lc/hooverdam/History/essays/hscaler.html

Close an area off. Then send up climbers to rappel and clean the routes of loose rock on their way down. An awful lot of loose, dangerous rock could be cleaned in just one day.

I just found Neebee's excellent thread on the subject:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=646474&msg=646884#msg646884
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 20, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
" a buncha meddling rangers and supes," say I.

Authorititty always wins.

but there is the dictum and the song, too, which states, "Women are always right."

WTF, LOL, RIP.

Ban bolts completely or shut the hell up, Smokey.



Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 20, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Crusher, your concerns about Eldo are based off the responsibility borne by having created a committee to oversee practices beyond the expertise of the State Park management, and are realistic.

In this case no such committee exists. This is more of an issue of establishing an appropriate balance between the Wilderness and safety policies in the NCNP and clarifying with rules that reflect the level of use the area receives.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Nov 20, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Kinda telling that so many are concerned about a tree on this site, but not a human life.

The NPS rangers need to be sued. They had a personal agenda that got a climber killed.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 20, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
Todd, that's exactly right. Committitty authorititty. Every time.

Patirck, that's exackly right, too.

Maybe they should dictate that it is truly "Forbidden Peak," establish a nice touristy parking lot for viewing, and put out some more signs.

NO FUN. NO ADVENTURE. TOO RISKY.
--Aunt Sam
crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 20, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
Crusher, your concerns about Eldo are based off the responsibility borne by having created a committee to oversee practices beyond the expertise of the State Park management, and are realistic.

In this case no such committee exists. This is more of an issue of establishing an appropriate balance between the Wilderness and safety policies in the NCNP and clarifying with rules that reflect the level of use the area receives.

Yeah. Agree. I don't know what the rappel possibilities are on Forbidden. Maybe there is a viable, clean, rap line somewhere, a la the rap route from Mammoth Terrace.

It might be a good idea for the main guiding outfits who guide Forbidden Peak (there's a bunch of them) to form a committee of their own to work out what is best to do. It'd be in their own interests, they don't want clients dying.

The NPS prefers to deal with groups of like-minded representatives of a user group. They are generally pretty suspicious of individuals who take unilateral actions--as in this instance.

Committees suck but this is just the kind of climbing issue that could benefit from such a local climbing community-based consensus.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 20, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
I don't know what the rappel possibilities are on Forbidden
.

Well, I can tell ya what they used to be and it didn't involve bolts or the
phukking Park Service telling you what for. You did just what you needed to
do. A few bolts here and there woulda been nice but we were too cheap, in
too big of a hurry, and highly disinclined to carry some heavyassed bolt kit.
Now I have put in a few on lead where I knew there no cracks but those were
very few and far between and I ain't tellin' since there's prolly no statute
of limitations as far as the Park Service is concerned. It's like murder, right?

By the way isn't the Park Service like that dude in high school, you know,
the one with the IQ of 70, who gets a job with the road crew wielding the
'STOP' sign? And then he becomes an authority on driving, the law, and human
psychology?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 20, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Stop, Jane, stop. Or I'll bash you with this sign of my importance. zzzzzzzz
--Doug Berry the Sign Guy in Much Ado About No Anchors



scooter

climber
fist clamp
Nov 20, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
The Roher Rappel routes are considered legit adventures in Yosemite, people canyoneer all over the planet. I don't really see the logic in not allowing a person to establish a rap route. There is risk, and it takes skill.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 20, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Inherent risk includes subjecting oneself to descending where the NPS tells you to descend? I think not.
Ratagonia

Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
Nov 20, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
A lot of sadness here. Yup, some climber died from rockfall on a crowded, chossy but great route. Sad. Someone used that death to rant agin' the gov'mint. Sad. Many people seem to think that the solution to the problem is lots of bolts. Sad.

However, this Epic Brewing Pumpkin Porter is awesome, and I raise a glass in respect for the deceased. R.I.P.

"If the climber had been killed by broken tat or an anchor block that pulled it would be different. ... I am open to replacing tat infested rappels with bolt anchors, but implying the lack of bolts may have caused this accident is a huge stretch."

Since I am not really a climber anymore, let me just say:

Gawd you climbers (most) are stupid. Hook up to a pile of tat around a loose block and... Frakkin A: why do you people let piles of tat accumulate. Cluelessness. Cut the tat, carry it out, replace with good stuff. If the frakking block is loose, go find something better. Leave a cam or nut, if necessary. Figure out a decent anchor. Ga-awd, don't you people want to live?

I know it is a 50crowdedclimb and attracts the less competent, but really, it is up to SuperTacoTypes (presumably better-than-your-average-bear/climber) to cut the tat and maintain the routes. My problem here is that the assumption is that the choice is bolted-to-poop or piles of tat off loose blocks. Is there no other choice? (ahem: well, given NC choss, perhaps not)

BITD did it and the very scary climb down the snow in the steep gully was the scariest part of the day. Glad to have my MSR snow-climbing giant ice axe. Global warming = no more snow? I blame the Republicans because... yeah like that.

Out.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 20, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
The climbing community can squabble over "maintaining adventure", and via a process of some type come to an agreement as to the best method for dealing with specific sites.

The crux is not the climbing community though, but the inability of the NCNP to find a practical set of bounds as to how it interprets the Wilderness Act as written into its guidance documents. Crusher's comment suggesting input from the guides could be valuable in balancing policy.

The American ideal of Wilderness and the "never give an inch" stance supporting the harshest interpretation of choices available seems to clash with the need to accommodate growing numbers of citizens that want to explore and recreate in the high mountains. Advocates of pure Wilderness should consider softening their position before the public demands a wholesale demolition of the Wilderness Act.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 20, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
All this scrutiny and weighing of values is good and valid, but each situation is unique.

Good observation. I started out thinking I would be against the rap route but changed my mind when I learned more about it. I dont think its healthy to have fixed opinions about anything. It's actually a pretty good sign of old age.

I doubt these rangers engaged in the kind of hand wringing that Crusher talks about, though. Hey they dont make the law, they just enforce it. How many times have you heard that. Write to your congressman if you don't like it. Now somebody go back up there and rebolt it, and dare them to chop it again. For some reason this is reminding me of the sad Jonny Copp / Micah Dash story.
Ratagonia

Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
Nov 21, 2013 - 12:14am PT
"Now somebody go back up there and rebolt it, and dare them to chop it again."

Yes, I am SURE this will FORCE them to respect the climbing community.

Not.

If you want a rap route there, respect their jurisdiction. Get a petition with 100 signatures and go in, "helmet in hand", and ask for permission to put in a rappel route. It'll probably take a year to get permission.

While it might seem NOW is a good time to do that, I would guess the opposite. NOW would be seen as an admission that they made a mistake, which bureaucracies are loathe to do.

Tom
ArmandoWyo

climber
Wyoming
Nov 21, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
This may be a little late into the life of this thread to point out that at the time the rappel bolts were placed and then removed by the NPS ranger, placing bolts was legal. The only legal prohibition was against power drills, and it seems to be conceded that these bolts were placed by hand. (Actually bolts are now legal as well; the new Director's Order 41 only establishes a procedure for authorizing new and replacement bolts.)
The lamentable death may not have been intentional or malicious, but for those who say that the ranger "was only following the law", I ask, what law? This at least isn't debatable: she was enforcing her own prejudices and options. That is why, in my opinion, this accident was not only tragic, but preventable and indefensible,
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 21, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Ron, you sound like you are really old...
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Nov 21, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
Chopped bolts - especially some that were there for a long period of time - is not a benefit to public safety. I sincerely doubt that there was an attempt to inform the community when the new and old bots were removed. The same agency that sees fit to install guard rails, put up warning signs that trails next to waterfalls may be slippery, etc. doesn't think twice to collect its fees and chop longstanding bolts on a popular route.

This man's death was tragic. Whether the chopping directly or indirectly contributed to that is not as important to me as the fact that a ranger took it upon herself to remove a long standing anchor without any notice or discussion and did not warn the public that the safety of the descent had changed. That is careless disregard for public safety by a public servant.

This is a 5.4 climb. If relatively less skilled climbers can't experience the joy of alpine climbing on an easy classic without exposing themselves to more harm due to the direct action of the NPS, human life has become meaningless to the NPS.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 21, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Ron, I don't see how a rappel route is different for the 5.4 climber or the grizzled veteran...
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Ron's greatest contribution here will be that of getting the thread up over 100 posts sooner than it may otherwise have happened.
It's all practice for getting the climate change thread to 20,000.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Nov 21, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
Kinda telling that so many are concerned about a tree on this site, but not a human life.

The NPS rangers need to be sued. They had a personal agenda that got a climber killed.

What's more telling is the apparent lack of acceptance of personal responsibility in your statement. It's dangerous to climb, moreso in the alpine. The rangers did not get the climber killed.

The E. Ridge will not become a descent route for guided parties. It is a typically traversing, long ridge with a couple of steep sections to it, including one that is very steep with a couple of 5.8 moves. The E. Ridge descent involves doing 2-3 rappels down the ridge near the summit, and then a long 3rd class traverse. The traverse is loose enough that it would be impossible to adequately protect a client/climber. We stayed roped for it, but it was hard to get good pro for the traverse. Falling, even roped together would have been ugly. While not as bad as the MountainProjecters would have you believe, it is not a straighforward descent.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
If the Park Circus is such a bunch of purists then why do they allow guiding?
Based on that logic there should be a Circle K at the parking lot.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Nov 21, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
This is a 5.4 climb. If relatively less skilled climbers can't experience the joy of alpine climbing on an easy classic without exposing themselves to more harm due to the direct action of the NPS, human life has become meaningless to the NPS.

What? Bolt the mountains into submission for the masses? Or else be blamed for their deaths?

Bullsh#t.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
It's good to be talking about it at least. We're not talking about bolting something into submission but creating alternatives in a very dangerous placed that has a tendency to get a little crowed at times. The access to this peak, considering what it is, is very easy compared to many mountains. It certainly is not wilderness.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
It's good to be talking about it at least.

But it's a pity we're talking to ourselves while the Park Circus commissars
sit in their nice cozy offices dreaming up new bullsh!t regulations and
counting down the days until their cushy retirements.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Yee of little faith! :>) I nailed the 100th post.....beat Ron to it. I mean.....I did it clean.

Since I could not edit my original title let me do it here;

Chopped bolts lead to death on Forbidden Peak?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
This is about the stupid behavior of a zealous park employee, behavior that does not serve the Park Service well. It may or may not have contributed to that particular death, but we do not want Park Service employees taking unilateral action like that. They can respect us as much as we are supposed to respect them.

I was at a Mt. Rainier trailhead parking lot years ago and a Ranger interrogated every every car and person there over a blue-bag of sh#t. He was lucky I didn't report him to the AUTHORITIES. He and I are lucky I did not do worse. We eventually became friends!
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Nov 21, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
Amazing how posts can be misread and just selected pieces quoted to prove the point you want to make.

I am not saying bolt every 5.4 into submission. The point is that an established bolt anchor on an easy, popular climb was put in since the horn was loose. Years later n NPS employee unliaterally removes it and does not even warn the public that the descent is now even more dangerous. That is not acceptable.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
McHale, don't forget that BITD them Rangers would try to break yer ice
axe on the steps of the permit hut. Some tried harder than others and certain
individuals had theirs tested a tad more rigorously than others. Thank
God the intardnet didn't exist back then - a lot more axes woulda 'failed'.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 21, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Here's the facts, as presented by R&I:

There are 5 or 6 rappels (with a single rope).

A pair of bolts was placed at the location of the very lowest anchor (rap #5/6) "several years ago".

In August 2012 a two-bolt anchor at the location of the topmost rappel anchor, and to the "climber's left" of it, to try to direct rappelling climbers away from the worst of the loose gully.

According to R&I, rappels number 2, 3 and 4 did NOT, EVER, have any bolts. None. The victim died pulling the rope on rappel #3. No bolts were involved. There never were bolts anywhere near that rappel. The two sets of bolted anchors that were placed and removed had NOTHING to do with the accident.

QUOTE: "When I asked [Kelly Bush, a ranger] if the climbers would have arrived at a different stance had they rappelled off the anchors Hicks had drilled, she said, “Same gully. They would’ve done the same pull.”

She is right and Jeff Jackson is guilty of a very badly worded, leading question and misleading article, one that implies guilt despite the facts he himself presents in the article. It's hard not to conclude that Jackson did this deliberately, just to get more web traffic, publicity and sales of their magazine.

Which is a real shame, because the use of bolts in wilderness areas is a really important issue that deserves a lot of careful thought, cooperation and understanding between us climbing users and land managers.

Condolences to the family and friends of Tyler Barton.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
That's right Reilly! I did like the advent of the metal handle though. I wonder how much corelation there was there......maybe that's what got Penberthy going on it. I had some conversations with Scott Fischer about the wood handle axe thing and that was when he decided to get switched over to metal handles axes for Mountain Madness. That was around the mid to late 80s.

A pair of bolts was placed at the location of the very lowest anchor (rap #5/6) "several years ago".

In August 2012 a two-bolt anchor at the location of the topmost rappel anchor, and to the "climber's left" of it, to try to direct rappelling climbers away from the worst of the loose gully.

It sounds like these bolts were placed for very rational reasons. Maybe the Ranger can tell us why it was so imperative to remove them. It sounds to me like somebody has a bit of disdain for progress.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Under title 36 CFR 261.6H i believe. "damaging ANY natural feature"..

So that means trundling is out now too? What's next, no exhaling near a plant?
And just think of all the ants that get killed by hikers on those trails!
How did they get built?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
Do you even know which side you are on Ron?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Nobody is saying everything shoulder be 'safe'. It is in people's nature to try and solve problems when there are problems and to try and make things safer at least, instead of just sticking their heads in the tallus. You don't seem to realize you where just arguing on the side of chopping rap routes in Yosemite.......and well, everything else.

Technically on ALL federal lands, placing a bolt IS AN ILLEGAL ACT. Under title 36 CFR 261.6H i believe. "damaging ANY natural feature"..

I carefully read the R&I story again and it pissed me off even more. I wonder if Ranger Bush was in on this rescue;

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201209501/Falling-Rock-Triggered-by-Party-Above-Poor-Position-Washington-North-Cascades-Forbidden-Peak-West-Ridge In the article Bush appears to only know of a 2010 incident.


I also find it very strange that somebody involved in Search and Rescue is involved in chopping bolts that were put in to make things safer in that treacherous gulley.


Then there's this which speaks volumes;
Bush mentioned that she’d been meeting with climbing groups and the Access Fund. In reference to the AF she said, “We’ve been having a dialog … well you can’t have a dialog with those guys. We’ve been meeting.”

crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 21, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
As far as the legality of bolting, the NPS, after several years of deliberation, came out with a recent ruling, in June 2013: Director's Order #41:

Key points are (this is shamelessly pasted from Alpinist website) these:

"—The new NPS policy ensures that climbers will not face a nationwide ban on fixed anchors in NPS managed Wilderness.

—Prior authorization for the placement of new fixed anchors is now required in all cases. If authorization is not provided in a park plan, climbers must request permission on a case-by-case basis.

—Authorization is not required to replace anchors in need of maintenance (unless existing local rules apply; check with your park).

—The vast majority of climbers are not likely to experience a significant change under this policy.

—The policy does not allow for the removal of existing routes and anchors without public input through the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process.

—The policy will not lead to a proliferation of bolted climbs in Wilderness."

pasted from:
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web13x/wfeature-directors-order-41

-----------------------------------------


The idea is to "manage" bolts. To allow bolts as needed for safety. To not allow bolts placed for convenience. To not allow a Wilderness crag to become a sport-climbing crag.

There are details to be worked out, for sure. Each park needs to work out the appropriate balance between safety and convenience. It's up to us to help with this balance. In the case of Forbidden Peak, there is a fairly strong argument for placing a dedicated rappel route away from the loose gully currently used--it's very much a safety issue. But it's 2013: anyone proposing to place such a rap route would need to work with the NPS.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Nov 22, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Now the whole story seems to be screwed up. It sounds like the author was working off of second-hand information and then got carried away with his imagination. Whoever knows this for sure, what crusher just wrote, should write to R&I and ask them to make a correction. I wouldn't attribute bad motives to him, since a totally screwed up story is destined to backfire. This is the kind of thing that separates bloggers from AP news reporters: fact checking. All I really know about this route is what I saw in the go pro helmet cam a few dozen posts up. It looks like a total chosspile but also a great adventure at that level.
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Nov 23, 2013 - 02:06am PT
It sounds like an accident happened. Why do y'all want to play the blame game?

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 23, 2013 - 02:46am PT
My conclusion: this death was avoidable, and would not have occurred if an overbearing NP Ranger had not taken it on herself to chop a line of rappel bolts placed to create a safe descent.

Total f*#king bullshit Armando!

The first ascent party bushwhacked 10 miles each way from the trailhead and climbed the peak car-to-car in one day. We're talking Pacific Northwest bushwhacking. No god damn bolts then!

Here's a photo from my climb of the W Ridge from 26 years ago, when I lived near Mt. Baker. No god damn bolts then!
H

Mountain climber
there and back again
Feb 4, 2014 - 12:36am PT
I was checking out the http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2330615/Rock-and-Ice-Magazine-Irresponsible-Journalism post when I read about this post. I remembered when it was posted and meant to put my two cent in then. Alas I am doing it now.

Several years ago I did Forbidden Peak. When we went in to get our permit I noticed the largest pile of tat I have ever seen. Six feet around and at least four feet high. Maybe bigger.

Climbers from the glory days did not use bolts because there where none. But I bet they tied off blocks and used webbing for the rappels. The tradition continues and I have never seen so much tat on any mountain. It was everywhere! So I guess I understood why there was so much in the office.

We climbed up the West Ridge route to the summit. At the summit we rapped to the north 5 or 6 raps on rotten rock. Down climbing this would have been nuts. We then headed across goat trails on 75 degree dirt. It was by far the scariest part of the climb. With no way to protect the traverse. I believe this is the standard route.

My thoughts on this is that if you want to minimize the tat you need to put in bolts. It is one or the other. Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone. Climbing is not illegal. Its a recognized sport and I am glad the the NPS recognizes this.

Unfortunately it takes an accident like this (regardless of who is at fault) before guidelines are created to insure the safety of our pursuit. It is crucial that the NPS gets informed by the users and user groups like Access Fund. Surely we'll all benefit from a cool headed conversation with the NPS decision groups.

Climbing is a growing sport with more and more joining the field daily. Everyone was a beginner at one point and I am glad I had open minded patient mentors, for the most part, who taught me "the ropes".
MarkWestman

Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
Feb 4, 2014 - 12:47am PT
Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone

No it doesn't. It's the mountains.


Unfortunately it takes an accident like this (regardless of who is at fault) before guidelines are created to insure the safety of our pursuit.

Safety is never assured, especially not in the mountains. No matter where you are, responsibility for safety starts with the person, not with a reliance upon gear placed by others.

I climbed the west ridge of Forbidden in September of 1994. It was my third ever alpine rock climb. I was with two guys who knew little more than I did. We had a bit of an epic from getting benighted on the descent. We rapped the terrible couloir which in late season was full of hard snow and ice and huge moats, and tons of loose rock. At one point we rappelled from a hanging stance off of two ancient fixed pitons, probably Beckey's. We also left some gear at one anchor. The evening concluded with me spraining my ankle in the dark on the glacier and spending until 5 AM groping our way back to camp in the dark, with me barely able to walk. I hobbled out the next day pretty humbled.

I took many lessons away from that long night. None of them involved a sense that the mountain needed to be 'made safer'. I needed more skills and knowledge.

H

Mountain climber
there and back again
Feb 4, 2014 - 01:11am PT
Mark, I appreciate your input. I agree that safety is never assured. That is some of the allure. Nothing wrong with making it safer in my opinion. Whats the alternative? "Sorry kid you can't go there you don't have the experience yet." How else are we going to further our endeavors?

Would you have not hurt your ankle if there was a rap line or you had more skills and knowledge? Experience is great regardless of how its gathered.


"No matter where you are, responsibility for safety starts with the person, not with a reliance upon gear placed by others."

I totally agree, that I am responsible for my safety and to some degree my partner/s. I have never had to be rescued and get myself out of the trouble I got myself into. But when I sport climb rap existing lines or tie off to a bolted anchor I am grateful for the effort of others.. This in my opinion does not lessen the degree of the experience.
MarkWestman

Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
Feb 4, 2014 - 01:45am PT
Nothing wrong with making it safer in my opinion.

I'm not against safe anchors, and I'm also not "against" bolts- I clip bolts a lot and I support safe anchor replacement and restoration.

But in the backcountry especially, you make it safer by coming prepared to set up your own anchors and make your own decisions and judgments, regardless of what the guidebook, the internet, or your friends tell you. That's it. That mindset, and that skill, are one of the most important foundations of personal responsibility and self reliance in alpine climbing. You make it safer by evaluating what you're given in the environment.

Whats the alternative? "Sorry kid you can't go there you don't have the experience yet." How else are we going to further our endeavors?


Climbing and the mountains are anarchy. There's no rules and no policemen to stop us if we don't have some pre-written set of skills, and there shouldn't be. In the context of this discussion, my answer is, sorry kid if you aren't prepared to place and replace your own rappel anchors when you climb a mountain then you *shouldn't* go, OR, you should pick a partner who has that skill and intuition better developed, i.e. a guide or a mentor, or a patient friend. Or you should just go and accept the consequences of your actions.

Would you have not hurt your ankle if there was a rap line? Experience is great regardless of how its gathered.

I hurt my ankle down on the glacier, long after the rappels. Glacier was bare ice, I dropped my ice axe and chased after it, rolled my ankle with crampons. Really dumb move chasing after falling gear, lots of people have died doing this sort of thing. The only thing it had to do with the weird devious descent I had just completed was that I was tired and strung out. I never made the connection that the lack of a sanitized descent route was the cause. And I still don't.

And thankfully. Because what this did was heighten my awareness and senses in the mountains. It's part of the learning curve.

"No matter where you are, responsibility for safety starts with the person, not with a reliance upon gear placed by others."

I totally agree, that I am responsible for my safety and to some degree my partner/s. I have never had to be rescued and get myself out of the trouble I got myself into. But when I sport climb rap existing lines or tie off to a bolted anchor I am grateful for the effort of others.. This in my opinion does not lessen the degree of the experience.

I too am grateful for the work that other people put into crags and walls in places like Yosemite. But these are- in my humble opinion- practice areas for the big mountains.

I make the distinction that convenience is for the crags. Obviously, popular routes are destined to get established rappel lines. I acknowledge that it makes little difference whether one is rapping off of bolts, or bomber horns, or bomber pins.

The only reason I am commenting on this is the notion that chopped bolts are directly responsible for this accident. I think that's a specious argument. Rockfall was the cause, and it could have happened where the bolt line had been, I know people who have been hit in that area as well, by both natural and human caused trundles.

I just think we are treading on thin ice by trying to establish in any fashion a precedent for aspiring alpinists that anchors and descents in the mountains are worry-free.

You asked "how are we going to further our endeavors?"

In return, I ask you, how are you going to develop the skills you need to engineer a complicated descent off of a Patagonian spire, a Himalayan giant, a Canadian Rockies chosspile, or an Alaskan massif, if you have a mindset that somebody else has, or should have, fixed up the descent for you?

It's wilderness. You're on your own. As it should be.
MarkWestman

Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
Feb 4, 2014 - 01:50am PT
you leave your phone in the car when you go climbing now right?

I often do. If there's no cell coverage where I'm going, at least.


clinker

Trad climber
California
Feb 4, 2014 - 08:49am PT
Only god (and Robbins,Kennedy and Kruk) should chop bolts.

A rap route is going to be established at Pinnacles for good reasons on a trade descent, after much intelligent discussion by the locals.

Leaving god out of it, no bolts should be chopped, by anyone, without the approval of the climbing community first.

If someone was to rap bolt a first ascent at Pinnacles, the community would sanely discus it while they dismembered the bolter. 3 out of 4 times the bolts would remain as a memorial to their passing.

The fun filled climbing community is always right.

duh
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 4, 2014 - 10:41am PT
I agree with Mark.

Either deal with the mountains as they are, or take up knitting.

Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone

Was this said by someone who actually climbs? Really?????

michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Feb 4, 2014 - 10:52am PT
The real concern I have is if someone climbs a peak expecting, for example, to have rappel anchors and it turns out they have been chopped. If you know this when you start, you can deal with it. The problem is learning about it on the summit if you are not prepared to otherwise rappel off the summit with the gear you have. Whether or not you can make due with what you have is another issue. My concern is that changing the known characteristics of a climb without fair notice to people can create a dangerous situation where it is not necessary. While I am not sure what the solution is, people need to consider the consequences when they chop bolts without regard to others.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 4, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Something needs to be done to make it safe and accessible for everyone

SLR, you're out of touch, that's the mission statement of the Alpine Chippers and Bolters League.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 4, 2014 - 11:15am PT
The real concern I have is if....

Then that person simply has no business being in the mountains.

Period.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 4, 2014 - 11:23am PT
I hear bowling is seeing a resurgence of interest.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Feb 4, 2014 - 11:57am PT
Climbing and the mountains are anarchy.

Perhaps ideally, but the NCNP is a heavily used area that is managed to balance Wilderness values with practical resource oversight.

Don't forget that by your admission you are lucky to have survived your early over-ambitious trip to Forbidden. Enjoy the luck for what it was and don't project your luck as a prescription for others' learning...
MarkWestman

Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
Feb 4, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
That was hardly my intention, Todd.

michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Feb 4, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
"Then that person simply has no business being in the mountains."

Ledge Rat, with all due respect, this is not a fair statement in response to my concern. If someone tells me that a road exists, and I take my car as a result, and it turns out the road is washed out so my mountain bike would have been better, do I then have no business being there? Obviously if I knew the road was washed out, I would not have taken my car. It's not a matter of whether I am capable or not. The same is true with bolts. Imagine showing up to do a sport climb with draws and a rope and then finding out that all the bolts were cut. Does that mean you do not belong rock climbing? My point is simply that there should be some type of notice that this is being done so people can adequately be prepared. My point is NOT that the bolts need to be there in the first place - on which I am not taking a position
MarkWestman

Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
Feb 4, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
Michael, one thing that I think is worth considering in this particular case is that there are several viable options for descending Forbidden. The east ridge, in fact, is in my experience both safer and faster.
I actually think given the tat situation and crowds that the bolts were reasonable and should have been left in place, but, their being gone did not in my opinion leave anyone hung out to dry. Forbidden was safely climbed and descended by hundreds of climbers for over 60 years before bolts appeared. The bolts (one set of them) were only in place for six days.

I otherwise understand your concern, I'm just not sure it applies in this case.
steve shea

climber
Feb 4, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
No! Notices are not needed. What is needed is for you to be fully prepared. You need to take plenty of slings and gear and the knowledge to use them for safe anchors. And, perhaps a small bolt kit. Then you could replace said bolt. Problem solved. The solution for the ascent and descent should be your efforts and responsibility not someone else's. Who would run/pay the notice patrol? You need to move in the mountains as if your are the first. No umbilical cords. It will be much more rewarding for you as well. .02
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Feb 4, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
It's wilderness. You're on your own. As it should be

"Then that person simply has no business being in the mountains."

Guiding anyone? I don't have the experience to say, and much was said just above. Still, maybe the government just isn't that well equipped to manage some of these things.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 4, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
It's wilderness. You're on your own. As it should be.

Unfortunately, Mark, it's not just wilderness, it's Wilderness. A designated Wilderness in the United States is one of the most tightly regimented environments in existence. If by "you're on your own" you mean you have the freedom to get yourself out as you see fit, I respectfully disagree. We've already had to deal with ill-considered bans on new fixed anchors in various wilderness locations. It's not at all clear to me that a plethora of tat-infested horns creates a better wilderness experience than one competently-placed bolted anchor.

Unfortunately, the Wilderness Act, as interpreted by some bureaucrats, ignores the existence of humans, and our tendency to flock to popular routes. The existence of "official" climber's approaches in Yosemite Valley, for example, strikes me as much closer to the goals of preserving a wilderness feel than the proliferation of approach trails that necessitated the use of more formal pathways.

To me, the comment that rings true is the one that south of the Canadian border, we make the absence of common sense an essential element of wilderness management.

John
MarkWestman

Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
Feb 4, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
If by "you're on your own" you mean you have the freedom to get yourself out as you see fit, I respectfully disagree.

Thanks John, I should have been clearer. I did not mean to imply that we should ignore regulations nor established ethics. What I meant is that in the mountains one should have a mindset of self sufficiency and being prepared mentally as though no one had been there before.


It's not at all clear to me that a plethora of tat-infested horns creates a better wilderness experience than one competently-placed bolted anchor.

Let me state that I fully agree with this above statement.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 5, 2014 - 01:08am PT
I otherwise understand your concern, I'm just not sure it applies in this case.

Agreed

If the things that you expect aren't there (e.g. bolts), then any competent mountaineer should still be able to fluidly manage the problem without missing a beat.

If not - then by definition you are not competent and have no business being there.


I've managed to climb dozens and dozens of routes without knowing a damn thing about the climb, summit or descent except that "It's there." I will admit that rapping unknown terrain is perhaps my worst personal nightmare and I try to avoid it whenever possible. See the thread I started about the "worst rap anchors you've ever used."

But if you're whole life falls apart because some bolts are missing, then you have some seriously-misguided notions about mountaineering.

If you need a topo with every foothold, bolt and tie-off point marked - and if you can't manage a climb without such beta - then take up knitting or stick to the gym.
H

Mountain climber
there and back again
Feb 5, 2014 - 03:04am PT
One of my points was that if there are not well placed bolts then there will be tat everywhere.

Another point was that every climber started out not being a climber. One can not become a competent mountaineer without first learning how to become one. I respect anyone willing to go into the unknown from what ever starting point. That is how we learn. That is how we become competent.

It takes more courage to climb a peak as a beginner than as a seasoned climber. You could be doing everything right, have all the knowledge available, and still get into trouble. That is just the way it is.

I don't have the right to say who should climb and who should not.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jan 24, 2015 - 02:00am PT
1, ,BUMP, and H say R you ? . . .
I'll ask a mouse.
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