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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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No question that parties get to climb with the concepts of their choice. And necessarily disclose what exactly they did to get up the rock--- that is, their climb is transparent and not some false account.
Reaching a summit could be all they intend and by any means necessary, even throwing a rope over a pinnacle's top or drilling giant holes and standing on the rods they inserted like Anderson did back in the 1800's to reach the top of Half Dome. Or later on, happily aiding a climb that actually already was a free climb.
Free climbing in its deepest sense attempts to joyfully or at least thrillingly symbolize on a safer level, what takes place when a solo climber without benefit of hardware and ropes, might have experienced the route--- just a person and the rock, nothing else. Native. If this is not true, then essentially the party in question is aid climbing on some level. This is what Joe H. is thinking here.
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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The more important question is why are people still NAILING on El Capitan free routes.
 Luke
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
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Hey Hedge...how'd you do it when you freed El Cap?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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What's funny is you playing like you are just TOTALLY UNAWARE that the majority of free ascents of El Cap have involved fixing a pitch or three, or rapping in to pre-stash gear, or aiding out then rapping back in to continue, or fixing to the ground and resting or waiting out weather, or freeing individual pitches out of order, or aiding them first to brush/tick/dry holds.
There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.
Take a gander at Steph's first book where she describes talking to Tommy about how these things get done. Then you can tell us that half of Caldwell's ascents weren't actually "free"...and we can laugh at you.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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...it's all just contriving the BEST WAY TO HAVE THE MOST FUN.
Eso!
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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I just honestly had no idea this was being done, or was an accepted practice.
Did you honestly think that every big-wall free ascent that has been made was done as a one-day continuous redpoint from the ground with no bivy?
Also people seem to be claiming here that if you bivy on the route after climbing higher that day than you bivy, you somehow have to jumar back up to your highpoint, and that not doing so somehow adds contrived difficulty to the ascent.
No one is saying that you have to do that, just that it's ridiculous you are somehow making it sound like that detracts from the ascent compared to if they had hauled a portaledge up to their highpoint and bivied there instead.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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"Also people seem to be claiming here that if you bivy on the route after climbing higher that day than you bivy, you somehow have to jumar back up to your highpoint, and that not doing so somehow adds contrived difficulty to the ascent."
Required redpointing of the same pitches immediatelty multiple times in a row during a continuous ascent, would yes, seem extremely contrived.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
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Not that anything I have to say on this subject counts for anything but here is my 2 cents...
"Are you saying, for example, that a team free climbs to the Roof on the Salathe and then fixes ropes down to Block to spend the night, jugs back up to their high point the next day and carries on free climbing, that there is something wrong with that?"
solid question….
Not as long as you're not claiming to have freed the route, and are just claiming to have freed individual pitches.
Huh?
..why not just fix the whole thing, rap down and free the individual pitches one at a time, then claim you did it when you end up having freed them all?
So… it really comes down to where the freer of routes spends the nigh in proximity to the said route. Free the 1-5 of any El Cap climb and rap down to catch the last of the cafeteria is no longer a valid "free" or "climb" or "ascent" of said route….
But if, when you get to the top of the 5th you set up a ledge… that's all good, right?
not sure it makes sense, luckily we all have our unimportant gripes with a lot of really important stuff.
When it comes down to it this minor distinction of the ethic comes down to the climber and how they feel about it.
As an outside observer I have nothing to say one way or the other as my contribution would have little to no effect on any of it.
I say climb how you want to climb, tell the story of how you climbed to yourself if you have any kind of dilemma.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
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I would be surprised if people didn't rap down to good bivi spots to camp and then jumar back up to their high point. That seems to have nothing to do with free or not free...and who cares anyway??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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Ron's Rules;
1) Any style is acceptable if it doesn't affect other climbers and if the climber is honest about it.
2) Free climbing means no hanging on gear. That means no sling belays, no jumaring, no porta-ledges.
3) Doing all the moves free non-consecutively is a good start, but not a redpoint.
4) Climbers are generally full of crap (see #1).
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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Good luck, ElCap! I'll be there cheering you on!
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Enty
Trad climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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Do people do Astroman that way? The Rostrum? Of course not. Then why try to claim you did an El Cap free route that way?
Are you being deliberately obtuse? If Astroman and the Rostrum were 30 pitches long and graded 5:13b I'm sure the majority of people climbing them would use the tactics you seem to abhor so much.
E
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
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So all topos of free routes that have hanging belays should henceforth show A0 for the pitch rating maybe for both the previous pitch and the subsequent pitch.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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How about those Huber brothers and their "man powered rappel" on El Nino?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
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Its one thing to seige a whole route, redpoint each pitch one by one and return to the ground every time, and another thing to fix a pitch or two mid-route and return to your ledge for the night. I dont see what's wrong with that, you're doing the whole route in one push. On the other hand it's not really great style to fix the first few pitches of any el cap route to get a head start, but like everyone else I did that too.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 27, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
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yes, he's being deliberately obtuse.
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Barbarian
climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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I freed an El Cap route - Pine Line. Go ahead - deny it...
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jfailing
Trad climber
PDX, North Slope, The Open Road
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:06am PT
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No. You could simply climb back up there, instead of jumaring, or moving the ledges. That's what I assumed was happening when people claimed they freed an El Cap route. I had no idea they were jumaring back up.
You're making it sound like they're climbing a 5.9 pitch or something...
By this thinking, does this mean that the follower actually has to free-climb the pitch as well? When aiding, does the follower have to re-aid the pitch to be able to claim an ascent?
Next thing you know people will be claiming that the West Face is an El Cap route.
I lol'd. I really wish there was a +1 button on ST.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:38am PT
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If you do every pitch free in the now accredited fashion you have climbed the route free. Nobody says that Harding et al didn't do the first accent of El Cap because they fixed ropes and jumared.
If you do the route free in a single push +1.
If you do the route free in a day +2.
I believe that Lynn Hill showed the boys the way quite some time ago.
In Dushanbe......home for Labor Day.
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
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First the West Face, then the Falls Trail. Where do we draw the line(s)?
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