retro bolting- colorado

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the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2013 - 10:43am PT

Ok time to bring this to the ST:

a "bold" route done in 1988 has been retro bolted, without the consent of the F.A party...
Its a bummer when i see these things happen as it seems to degrade the effort of the FA party and weaken the standards set back in the day, when we had less advanced gear, shoes, no gyms to train in etc.. todays climber should have no problem stepping up to the plate and giving it an honest go instead of creating short cuts to make an ascent...

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/archangel/108240564#a_108254896

I have drilled plenty of bolts, on the lead, on rappel, some bold routes, some well protected.. but i have never added bolts to someone else's route, not even on the Muir Wall. Come on people, go find virgin rock to enjoy the thrills of an FA, but please leave the standards of yesterday intact.
kurt

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Jul 24, 2013 - 10:51am PT

I've come to realize over time.. not every route needs to be "safe". Hell some routes don't ever need to be repeated.. There's millions of miles of stone out there to climb without messing with someone elses route.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:25am PT

Not only does the child piss on others accomplishments, he even questions whether they did them in the first place:

Reportedly freed by Thom Byrne in 1988, Archangel remained largely ignored until 2013. If Byrne freed it, his ascent was extremely bold.

.12c, not exactly an Earth-shattering grade these days (although I'd love to be able to climb that grade right now!). But to question whether it was even freed, because it would have been too hard, adds to the incredulousness action of the dim-wit.

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:32am PT

Yup, I had the same sentiments when I saw it on MP as well.
Nothing new for BoCan, or Dream-your-a-hard-climber-Canyon, though.
I've given up and gotten used to it. It's just the direction that climbing seems to be going; no more room for new bolted routes, might as well retro-bolt the ones nobody ever does.

Edit:^^^ You could compare this to Double Cross if it now had 14 bolts running up it. Not really the same thing....

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:38am PT

When questioned about run outs during the early sport craze and "safe" routes, Mark Wilford was quoted as saying:

"Safe isn't one of the reasons I started climbing. Why don't we just bulldoze all these mountains down so we can all be safe?"

WBraun

climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:43am PT

Stupid Americans do not understand that one must always be safe no matter what.

Whether one runs out 80 feet with no pro, free solos or clips multiple bolts.

The bottom line is still, to be safe in all endeavors ......

Safety is relative!

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:44am PT

So I ask this, did the climb really get "done" in 88....

If it is a bold climb, with general knowlege that it really has been free climbed. Than the RETRO is wrong.

But some climbs that have been "climbed" are still in question if this is true or not. Look at some of the more questionable climbs in Southern California... Refiners Fire ... 14B, heck there was $10,000 riding on someone climbing that free, so if one day it gets retro bolted and freed, might not be a big deal.

On the other hand if the EDGE gets retro-bolted there will be hell to pay.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:57am PT

So I ask this, did the climb really get "done" in 88....

There are a LOT of routes that fall into that category.

I guess we are now released from the responsibility to actually find out?

Hell, a couple of damn good climbers in Oregon actually went to the trouble to contact me about some REALLY obscure routes of mine from the late 70's. Imagine that.

the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:10pm PT

any way you look at it its a bummer. dumbing down the sport for another blog post.
folks need to look outside the front range, there are plenty of new routes to be had, just have to drive and hike a bit.
can this post get to 100? 200? 10,000?
HAHAHAHAAAAAA..

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jul 24, 2013 - 12:25pm PT

How Ryan Braun of the retro Bolter.

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Jul 24, 2013 - 12:39pm PT

Survival....I think there are climbs that are in question if they ever truly, were climbed.

Hard to condem retro, if it was really some sort of project.

Any CO locals who have knowledge if this one??

The MP folks are silent on this one.

maybe the new standard in CO, thats why none are to pissed.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Jul 24, 2013 - 12:53pm PT

This seems to be a trend. History ignored or forgotten. I've had several of my routes from the 70's and early 80's retro bolted on rappel and erased, renamed, and new "first ascents" recorded over them. They weren't of earth shattering difficulty, just 5.10-11, but you had to think to accomplish them with a margin of safety. The illusion of safety- from cradle to grave.

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 24, 2013 - 01:03pm PT

A little surprised that I don't read much about people chopping bolts here...

Just doesn't happen 'round here. Climbers just shrug their shoulders and say that the route should be chopped, but nobody does it. Climbers say silly things like "if you don't like the bolts don't clip them" or "my personal protest is to not clip the bolt". Similarly, "my personal protest to chipped holds is to not touch that hold." Oh so brave....

Really what this boils down to is did the FA/FFA give permission to retro-bolt? Anyone?

Snowmassguy

Trad climber

Calirado

Jul 24, 2013 - 01:04pm PT

Who gives a sh#t? Climbing should really be for you - should be about cheering for others you think do proud work, and otherwise minding your own business. They aren't chipping new holds or tearing down the rock, so does it really affect you? It really boils down to measuring peckers, which if you're secure in yourself, is a waste of time for all involved.

Spot on. Who really cares. This is an obscure climb. The dude that put up the route should really be the only one with a say in the matter.

Not a fan of the behavior but really why freak out about it you were not the one that first put the route up.

neversummer

climber

30 mins. from suicide USA

Jul 24, 2013 - 01:07pm PT

sounds like the retro-bolter has been prepping for this by doing the new workout craze in Colo....
[Click to View YouTube Video]

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 01:14pm PT

Not a fan of the behavior but really why freak out about it you were not the one that first put the route up.

I don't see anyone freaking out. But if we don't speak a little loudly, we will certainly see more of it.

Big fat bolts going up some Tuolumne routes would be nice. It would compensate for my lack-a-sack since my climbing moves are still pretty good.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 01:49pm PT

Retrobolting in Boulder Canyon has been a fairly common theme the last 20 years after the bolt ban that started in the Flatirons and the beginning of the bolt review board that is regulating Eldorado Canyon. Only recently has the Flatirons gotten its own bolt review board to dictate which crags can see new development.

Locals that knew better just shrugged their shoulders and let the sportos take over that chossy Canyon since there are 1,000's of other trad routes in town which will never be bolted and are more fun to climb.

Unfortunately this lackadaisical attitude resulted in 100's of routes in BC getting retrobolted. The Sport Park was all top ropes and bold leads until it was rediscovered, Tonnere Tower was completely covered in lichen, trees, and loose blocks until some blowhard that wanted to up his Mountain Project points destroyed that cool green ecosystem just so they can preen and strut in front of the tourists at Boulder Falls.

Castle Rock and the Dome are the last few hold outs from the retro bolting.

It's only Boulder Canyon, where noobs have easy access to the rock and then back to town where they can spray on MP while sipping chai. Nothing new to see here and far from a growing trend at the other crags about town.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 24, 2013 - 01:56pm PT

Why all the talk? Pull & fill the bastards, and be done with it.

Laine

Trad climber

Reno, NV

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:07pm PT

With all the virgin rock out there, why sully someone else's climb?

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:08pm PT

Yep, the guys who put up Archangel 2.0 are real Boulder blowhards/sprayers (including climbing harder and bolder than 99.9% of ST posters, but that's Boulder for ya!). I guess preening around Boulder Canyon isn't enough for them, they need to their preening in Upper Dream Canyon, and we all know what's going on there.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:13pm PT

Goat wrote: Unfortunately this lackadaisical attitude resulted in 100's of routes in BC getting retrobolted. The Sport Park was all top ropes and bold leads until it was rediscovered, Tonnere Tower was completely covered in lichen, trees, and loose blocks until some blowhard that wanted to up his Mountain Project points destroyed that cool green ecosystem just so they can preen and strut in front of the tourists at Boulder Falls.

You have no idea what you are talking about, as do most of the others on this thread.

Call Chris and talk to him in person. Sack-up.

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:13pm PT

Why all the talk? Pull & fill the bastards, and be done with it.

In this case I totally agree. Chris Weidner had no right to do anything at all to this route. Yank the hardware and give it back him. Him and his pals can wear there "murder kitty" T shirts on there own hack jobs.

Get a clue poser.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:14pm PT

Maybe Chris should have sacked up and talked to Thom?

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:15pm PT

Chris Weidner writes about climbing for the local newspaper.
Gayer than a bouquet of pensis.

NTTIAWWT.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:16pm PT

Yes I do Bob, I was there.
Are you denying the sportpark wasn't retobolted or the other dozen crags?
Are you saying Tonnere Tower was a choss pile until the route setters moved in, I drove by that everyday watching the progess.

Stop thinking about your guidebook sales and tell us what you think happened.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

SLO, Ca

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:17pm PT

So many bolts get pulled on supertopo.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:19pm PT

Eric...you were not there and there wasn't 100's of climbing retro-bolted in the canyon. F*#king name them or STFU.

You spew a lot about sh#t you have no idea of.

How long have you lived in Boulder? 15 years maybe...or more. how many new routes have you done in the Canyon? 0...maybe.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:20pm PT

"So many bolts get pulled on supertopo."

Everybody talk a good game until it is actually time to do something.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:23pm PT

Okay Bob maybe it was 101, doesn't matter I'm not here to pull bolts.
But is was a shitload because I remember the topropes and runouts done been.

You're the guidebook author, tell us how many it was Bolting Bob?
Was everything west of Castle Rock bolted before '92?
I think knot.

Thanks Locker, I'm only on my second drink!

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:26pm PT

Eric wrote: Are you denying the sportpark wasn't retobolted or the other dozen crags?
Are you saying Tonnere Tower was a choss pile until the route setters moved in, I drove by that everyday watching the progess.

Yes I'm I'm denying it...certain routes have been retro-bolted...please name me the 100's.

I believe that you did drive by the crag...just like everyone else who thought is was a choss pile...people flock to the crag now to have fun.

You are like arm-chair climber in Boulder...filled with opinion but nothing to back them up.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:28pm PT

Eric...you are a f*#king wanker...I could less about guide book sales. You have no f*#king idea what you are talking about.

Calling me bolting bob...funny. Anytime your lame ass want to go anywhere at any crag on any route to compare skills...let do it.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:32pm PT

Eric wrote: Was everything west of Castle Rock bolted before '92?

Do you understand the difference between bolting new routes and retro-bolting??

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:32pm PT

I can feel the Philly brotherly love.
Why you so mad?
Yes I understand the difference of someone claiming a FA over a toprope that was done before. STATUS!

Let me dig up some personal photos and the Richard Rossiter guide and compare it to your guide.

I'm sure we can compare notes between the lists on Mountain Project of FA's and Richard's guide.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:34pm PT

A little history...been climbing in Boulder canyon since 1974...done 100's of new routes and most of the routes up to 13a/b, I also know a fair amount about the history and the bolting wars.

So let's go at it Eric.

Eric...I'm not mad...this sh#t happens all the time by people who don't know what the f*#k they are talking about.

Eric wrote: Yes I understand the difference of someone claiming a FA over a toprope that was done before. STATUS!

Bullsh#t.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:37pm PT

So tell us about the bolting wars old man and how it is different from what I posted?
Enlighten us.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:37pm PT

Eric..cut the name calling. Is that all you really got?

You were not there, you were not one of the players and you got most of your information from the mags, MP or hearsay.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:39pm PT

"So many bolts get pulled on supertopo."

Everybody talk a good game until it is actually time to do something.

Sounds about right. Too many strong climbers in CO, 12C??? If anyone needs retrobolts pulled on a 5.10 let me know, I might be able to get up it....

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:41pm PT

No I'm intrested in your take on the story Bob, now take a deep breath and tell us more how wrong I am. Please tell me how Tonnere Tower was climbed before it was cut down and bolts were added.

I've only been climbing here since '92 with partners that have been climbing there since '62. My last climb there was B3.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:43pm PT

Eric...you are a poser who has not idea what they are talking about.I don't need to give you the story. You posted something that was bullsh#t, I callled you on it. Post the 100's of retro-bolted routes in Boulder canyon...I give you a day to post up.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:44pm PT

Let me put in a good word for Bob's routes (not so much the person, who I don't know except he comes across as a little violent)--as someone who's done craploads of bolted routes (and non-bolted) in BoCan and elsewhere in Colo, he's got a fine eye for good lines and puts up quality routes.
Not really sure why anyone is butt hurt that people have put up new bolted lines in BoCan over the past 20 years or so, guess they don't have anything serious to complain bout. Talk about first world problems . . .

(There are rare cases where someone put a "new" line in that an old fart later claims he did in the 70s or whatever, oftentimes the old fart seems to be mistaken, and no one else really gives a damn. If you want to pretend that someone bolting a line that may have been done decades ago, but probably wasn't, and is never climbed now, is the same as retrebolting B-Y, have fun.)

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:44pm PT

Well go count all the routes at the Sport Park in your guide and let's go from there.

Why do you feel so threatened?

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:46pm PT

Thank you Blah..a voice of reason and experience.

I come across as a little agressive as I refuse to take or believe sh#t went I know they are wrong. Eric is wrong.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:48pm PT

Eric wrote: Well go count all the routes at the Sport Park in your guide and let's go from there.

Bullshit Eric....who did you toprope all those routes with...you are digging yourself a deeper hole...stop now, you might save a little face.

Eric wrote: Why do you feel so threatened?

I called bullshit on what you wrote...you are wrong and you know. This is a witch hunt.

You insulted Chris and his job...do you actually know him?

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:50pm PT

No Bob, there are a lot of routes that have been cut down by bolts.

Sorry you feel differently but just for shits and giggles how many bolts have been added to Castle Rock since the FA's?

I'll do a count when I get off from work but since you're the expert you should know off the top of your head.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:52pm PT

Blah wrote: There are rare cases where someone put a "new" line in that an old fart later claims he did in the 70s or whatever, oftentimes the old fart seems to be mistaken, and no one else really gives a damn. If you want to pretend that someone bolting a line that may have been done decades ago, but probably wasn't, and is never climbed now, is the same as retrebolting B-Y, have fun.)
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze

Classic...I was accuse of retro-bolting a route in Boulder Canyon and got hammer on MP...I ask the person or people who were doing the hammering to prove that the route was done before. No takers...just hot air...kind of like Eric.

Kurt...you should call Chris and get the full story then base an opinion upon that.

Funny in this day of being PC that by calling someone on their bullshit you are called violent or agressive.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 02:59pm PT

Dude, you're foaming at the mouth and not even quoting me but Blahblah.

Seriously settle down before your heart assplodes.
The majority of the Sport Park was top ropes set up between the '70's and early '90's. I climbed them with Mark Kelly, Oxana Medved, and Anita Allen.

Tell us your version of the Sport Park?
Tell us your version of Tonnere Tower and what it was like before '92?

In addition Tarbuster and I climbed a bunch of stuff just here and there in that canyon that Roy spotted along with Stich over the years that wasn't worth reporting to you or MP because we could care less about reporting it to the masses, wild thought I know but we did it for fun, not spray or adulation.

I'm not here to judge but remember when we retrobolted those top ropes in the South Platte on rappel just because we wanted to climb right now. Remember that toprope I pointed out to you that became a fat bolt climb the next month.

Tell us your version of climbs lead in the South Platte?
Tell us your version of the Sport Park?
Tell us your version of Tonnere Tower and what it was like before '92?

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:07pm PT

I wouldn't call a guy of Bob's caliber names, but I'm surprised that he doesn't seem to think talking to the FA guy matters.

Bob, is there a bolting project you wouldn't defend?

I can't think of any in reading your stuff for years.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:08pm PT

Eric..I think you are full of sh#t. You don't climb 5.12 or even 5.11, most of the new routes at the Sport Park are that grade and above...they were cleaned heavily, some were chipped and glued which I do NOT agree with or do.

I never like the Sport Park and did most of the routes as first hand info for the guide. The Sport Park is a dead horse that has been beaten a thousand times over. Let it go.

Most of routes at Tonnere Tower were clean heavily with no chipping or glueing. It is the nature of a lot of new routes in the canyon that goes back to the early 80's.

If you do drive by every day you will see many climbers there enjoying the routes and also see that most of the "green" is back along the base of the routes.

nature

climber

Boulder, CO

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:15pm PT

On the other hand if the EDGE gets retro-bolted there will be hell to pay.

Uh oh.... I guess I shouldn't disclose what I've been up to ;-)

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:15pm PT

Survival wrote: Bob, is there a bolting project you wouldn't defend?

I can't think of any in reading your stuff for years.

Also I would always ask permission to retro-bolt a route...too many of mine have been but I still seem to live through it. :-)

I started climbing 71 and still climb trad and sport. I don't believe in retro-bolting WITHOUT the FA or community approval, but that is just my opinion.

I don't believe in witch hunts on the internet as it has happened to me by many people like Eric who don't have the full story or who just wants to start sh#t.

I take a lot darts in the back maybe because I do a lot, I just don't like it when they come from those who don't know what they are talking about.

Maybe Eric and Kurt should form an opinion after getting the full story from Chris.

Funny to see Eric name call and be a wise ass on the internet...real tough guy.

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:22pm PT

Maybe Eric and Kurt should form an opinion after getting the full story from Chris.

You mean the full story from Thom AND Chris?

I agree Bob, but it sounds like Chris never even got the the full story dosen't it ?

JakeW

Big Wall climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:23pm PT

Same ol lame debate. Different philosophies, practically different sports.

A lot more people climb for fun(positive emotions) nowadays than to almost die(negative emotions) and get a big rush out of it(kind of positive in contrast to just experienced negativity)...and if that's what they want most just go soloing.

Claiming "standard setting" is hilarious when its just the poor engineering of some heinous route that no one wants to climb and can't even see a solid onsight attempt cuz its so weird, dirty, and originally aided/hangdogged then headpointed...or toproped if it was the yoyo days.

It seems so funny to seek out something that most/all other people don't want to do, and then prop yourself up on a pedestal for it. Seems really easy to find things to do that no one else wants to do...why do people think this is cool? "Hey I did this new route that will scare you and you probably won't have fun. Its rad and so am I. Oh, by the way its really dirty and poorly engineered cuz I just aided up it, wired it, and sent it without really caring if it was ever onsightable or worth repeating."

I've talked to so many old/bold climbers that now wish they'd put up more GOOD routes and less CRAZY and UNREPEATED routes. They realize you actually get more admiration, respect, and thanks when that's what you do...which was what the ego was originally seeking by getting all bold and spraying about it.

But I dig a nice traumatizing runout once in a while. They're good for satisfying those repressed warrior needs in our overly secure world here. However, I've learned they happen enough on accident without intentionally seeking them out, much less creating them. I did create a few in the past, almost cried in the moment then acted all tough later.

I've met Chris before. I don't really know him at all but he seems to be quite solid, and probably isn't afraid of occasional run outs. He's climbed with this guy named Honnold quite a bit.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:23pm PT

Kp wrote: You mean the full story from Thom AND Chris?

I agree Bob, but it sounds like Chris never even got the the full story dosen't it ?

I agree...from both. I don't think it was ever clear if the route was completed ground up on lead.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:25pm PT

Climbed 5.12 last month Bob, and if I fold my dick in half its only 6 inches.

While we are at it, how many 14er's have you skied?
How many miles can you swim in open water?
I'm up to four.

Seriously I gotta get back to work, toodles old man.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:26pm PT

Eric wrote: While we are at it, how many 14er's have you skied?
How many miles can you swim in open water?
I'm up to four.

We are not talking about those activities here...are we?

Nice try macho man.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:28pm PT

goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:59am PT
Dude, you're foaming at the mouth and not even quoting me but Blahblah.

Seriously settle down before your heart assplodes.
The majority of the Sport Park was top ropes set up between the '70's and early '90's. I climbed them with Mark Kelly, Oxana Medved, and Anita Allen.

Tell us your version of the Sport Park?
Tell us your version of Tonnere Tower and what it was like before '92?

In addition Tarbuster and I climbed a bunch of stuff just here and there in that canyon that Roy spotted along with Stich over the years that wasn't worth reporting to you or MP because we could care less about reporting it to the masses, wild thought I know but we did it for fun, not spray or adulation.

I'm not here to judge but remember when we retrobolted those top ropes in the South Platte on rappel just because we wanted to climb right now. Remember that toprope I pointed out to you that became a fat bolt climb the next month.

Tell us your version of climbs lead in the South Platte?
Tell us your version of the Sport Park?
Tell us your version of Tonnere Tower and what it was like before '92?

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:28pm PT

Great post Jake.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:30pm PT

You're ignoring my questions Bolting Bob.

Edit, Ron I'm very gentle and caring in real life.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:30pm PT

Go back to work Eric...do something productive.

Eric...what is with the name calling? I don't have to answer any of your questions...I called bullshit on your post...and it was.

What I have done in climbing in Colorado and many other places in pretty common knowledge. Never sneaky...I always put it out there.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:35pm PT

Edit, Ron I'm very gentle and caring in real life.

...in real life sometimes . A community of people that (for the most part) are not anonymous and share interests... that's kind of like real life.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:38pm PT

Also I would always ask permission to retro-bolt a route...too many of mine have been but I still seem to live through it. :-)

That's all I wanted to see. Thanks Bob.

Chris should have made the effort.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:50pm PT

Chris should have made the effort.

I believe you are still making assumptions, yes? Do you have any idea what efforts he did or didn't make, and have you seen the route in question?

My perceptions on this episode are colored by a ST thread about bolts being added to routes at Suicide. Unless you had seen the routes and the added bolts at issue (I did), you really had nothing to say other than general yap-flapping, at least as applied to those routes.
General comments about retro-bolting may or may not be interesting, but that's not the same thing as commentary on a specific route.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:56pm PT

"The FA party owns the route" does not appeal to younger climbers conscience.

It was a dirty POS relic nobody cared about until today. CW and MS are hardly "younger climbers".

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 03:59pm PT

I believe you are still making assumptions, yes?

I suppose. As are you?

Seems reasonably clear from Chris's MP post.

Reportedly freed by Thom Byrne in 1988, Archangel remained largely ignored until 2013. If Byrne freed it, his ascent was extremely bold.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:22pm PT

Bob, you are the one as guidebook author ignoring my questions.
Show us where those bolted route are in the old guide and maybe you will gain some credence.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:25pm PT

I suppose. As are you?

I don't think it's reasonably clear at all what happened--I suppose that's an "assumption" on my part, but let me add a little more.
I have a copy of Rossiter's 1997 Upper Dream Canyon guide (and I've been at least an occasional UDC visitor since around then, not that that is super relevant).
Archangel is listed in that guide as requiring 13 QDs, which doesn't make any sense if there were only a couple bolts. Also, the guide shows an incomplete project to the right of Archangel; the bolts that Chris found could have been from that project.
Rossiter was apparently somewhat involved with Archangel; he added some bolts on an easy approach pitch with "Thom Byrne."
Perhaps Rossiter and/or Bryne intended to bolt Archangel, but never got around to doing so, but Byrne had aided or toproped it or something or other before then.
From Googling, Weidner is a 14 sport climber and 13 trad (Eldo) climber; if he's skeptical that the route was ever really freed, I may trust his skepticism, especially if the only reason to think it was freed was some cryptic info from an old Rossiter guide.
I've never heard of "Thom Byrne." I'm sure there were plenty of very good old-skool Boulder climbers whose names I don't know, but I think the whole affair is anything but "reasonably clear."

the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 04:28pm PT

wow. ok my post made it to 80.
now can we quit the name calling and ego bashing and who climbs how hard.
how about we just talk about this route and the effect it has on the overall aspect of the sport.

Does the FA party own the route- in some ways no, and in a lot of ways (wait for it, wait for it) damn right we do. We put in the work, paid for the gear or bolts, put our asses on the line and opened it up for everyone to ENJOY!
So, it comes down to a simple lack of respect when this happens without anyone asking the FA party if this would be cool.
A bunch of years ago i was doing a slide show in So Cal. some climbers came up to me and raved about Bikini Whale- how they loved the route and really wanted to lead it but were too scared and would only tope rope it. They asked really nicely if bolts could be added. I said yes because it was a top rope first and i lead it, on sight, ground up old school. I got the rush, the experience i wanted from the route and was happy to open it up to the masses.

This was not the case with Cookie Monster and we know that story well.

So stop the name calling and bashing. if you can't have this discussion with respect and decency then don't chime in.

Im not name calling or bashing Chris for what he did, just asking the questions, why and what good does it do to bring the route/sport down to your level when climbing used to be about stepping up to the level of the route you desire to climb.
kurt

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:30pm PT

but I think the whole affair is anything but "reasonably clear."

I didn't say the whole affair was reasonably clear, only that it was reasonably clear that Chris didn't do the homework.

Having your doubts is one thing, but bolting up something that is listed as someone else's FA without finding the facts is a different thing.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:32pm PT

I am willing to bet $100 that there will be no convincing evidence that the route bolted by Weidner was ever led free, prior to his bolting.
Edit--actually let me change that, no bet (don't feel like arguing with anyone about terms)--
If anyone presents convincing evidence that the route was led free, I will donate $100 to the 501(c)(3) charity or ST charity recipient of his/her choice.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:33pm PT

Kurt...you didn't ask Chris...you posted this "retro-bolting-Colorado under an assumption. You knew exactly what kind of reaction this would bring on.

Then you have most people wanting to hang Chris by the balls without even knowing the full story. Lame in my opinion.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:38pm PT

Eric wrote: Show us where those bolted route are in the old guide and maybe you will gain some credence.

I don't need your acceptance on anything Eric. Do you understand that?

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:49pm PT

If anyone presents convincing evidence that the route was led free, I will donate $100 to the 501(c)(3) charity or ST charity recipient of his/her choice.

In this case shouldn't it be Chris presenting evidence, other than his "assumption" that it wasn't led free?

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:00pm PT

In this case shouldn't it be Chris presenting evidence, other than his "assumption" that it wasn't led free?

I don't know--I don't know if there is any reason to suspect that the route was ever done free other than the clearly wrong reference in the old Rossiter guide (that the route took 13 QDs, which is suspiciously like the 14 bolts added by Weidner). It really sounds to me like the route was intended to be bolted by Rossiter and/or "Byrne", Rossiter somewhat optimistically added it to his guide before that happened, and for whatever reason, it never did happen.
Yes, I'm doing a lot of assuming here, but so is anyone who thinks the route was led before the bolts were added. (There are references to the route possibly taking "micro-gear" that didn't exist in the mid 80s.
What are your grounds for thinking the route was led free? Anything other than the Rossiter guide?

Oh, and I know $100 isn't a lot of money, but I'm not planning on playing any games like holding anyone to some super strict standard of proof. Just any convincing evidence, I'd take Rossiter's word for it (don't think he posts here).

Off White

climber

Tenino, WA

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:04pm PT

Ah well, from the thread title I was hoping someone had retro bolted the whole damn state.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:09pm PT

"Kurt...you didn't ask Chris...you posted this "retro-bolting-Colorado under an assumption. You knew exactly what kind of reaction this would bring on.

Then you have most people wanting to hang Chris by the balls without even knowing the full story. Lame in my opinion."

Chris sounds like a good guy. It's lame that a bunch of internet strangers, wankers and lamo's like me can all show up and present opinions on a route and a place they don't know anything about. Let the locals who know what the heck is what figure this out. I'd be willing to bet that the oldtime climbers standby that if some jerkoff slaps in unwanted bolts then another jerkoff has the same right to pull them out is still in play. If it's a noble community effort by good folks in this case then the bolts will stay. But again, that's for them to figure out. Except for the "retro FA" comment on MP, that's some lame stuff. It's a FA or it's not. Steve Byrne led a hard route at Smith way back when that few good climbers could even successfully TR, just cause it was sh#t for pro, doesn't mean it didn't get led.

PS, Bobby D, calm yerself a tad for yer heart blows. Not worth it.

Good luck with it guys.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:18pm PT

couchmaster wrote: PS, Bobby D, calm yerself a tad for yer heart blows. Not worth it.

Funny, the old ticker is doing quite well since I had the plumbing redone. :-)

the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 05:31pm PT

actually Bob i did ask Chris on his post on FB and he did not ask the fA party..
for the record i never threw chris under the bus nor called him names like what some of you folks are doing here.
i posted up because i am concerned about this type of ethic becoming more and more prevalent.
what really sucks is some folks here cannot have a discussion without calling each other dicks and being jackasses.

ok im done with this post, have fun. im going to drink a PBR..

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:39pm PT

CONVINCING EVIDENCE that the climb was done how it was reported????

Well f*#k... throw out 99% of all climbing history lol

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 05:54pm PT

Bolting Bob, you protest too much, everyone from the Gunks to Colorado knows your history of bolting and its no big deal just man up and drop the hard man act. You should be proud of your past accomplishments and endeavors and stop attacking the messenger that you are a retro bolting bitch.

Rosssiter guide, nothing west of Castle Rock, wonder why???
Not reported, huh? not done? OMG why knot?
What an opportunity... how come all those climbers heading up the canyon missed all that rock right off the road?

Bolting Bob's guidebook, hmm.... where did all this new rock come from?
Did Jesus rise up and create it for a new generation?
Was it knot reported in Neptunes big book and ignored by the bolters?

rolling, rolling, rolling...hey Bob all in all just having fun with yah.
But seriously don't sit there and tell me BC hasn't been retroed to death.

Cheers!
Eric

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:10pm PT

what really sucks is some folks here cannot have a discussion without calling each other dicks and being jackasses.

I am with you Kid....

Stuff sure boils over quickly.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:10pm PT

Eric...I come to the conclusion that you really don't know what you are talking about and really do not understand what retro-bolting mean/is.

Posting maps does nothing to prove your point or the claims you made.

Post the hundreds of routes that have been "retro-bolted" in Boulder Canyon.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:17pm PT

Bob how about all the routes listed in the section under Sport Park?
You're the guidebook author, show us your sources of FA's?
Do you have the big book from Neptune's to post up your references of FA's?

I don't have access to that info but as a guidebook author you should stop arguing with me and post your references. Something which is severely lacking in your guidebook index.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:32pm PT

Kurt...Ok...accept my apology on that.

Prod

Trad climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:33pm PT

Im not name calling or bashing Chris for what he did, just asking the questions, why and what good does it do to bring the route/sport down to your level when climbing used to be about stepping up to the level of the route you desire to climb.
kurt

Kurt,

This is a funny statement from you considering you glued and bolted a hold on a line you could not climb in Clear Creek canyon in the late 80's or early 90's? I believe this line has been climbed without the "necessary" hold.

Has you evolved to a higher level? Should everyone else have to follow your lead?

All the questions you ask are great ones and necessary ones in my book. But don't take a higher stance based on "Back in the day" ethics, when you didn't follow those ethics back in the day.

Cheers,

Prod.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:36pm PT

Eric...I have nothing to prove to you...you made a dumb ass statement for which you have not been able to back up with proof.

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:38pm PT

Post the hundreds of routes that have been "retro-bolted" in Boulder Canyon.

Gawd, where to start.....hey here's one!

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:40pm PT

Frank...nice try..."I climbed right of Bob's line after the third bolt, staying in the obvious corners. In my opinion, this is more fun and logical climbing than the way it is bolted, and since you need to carry gear for this route anyway, give it a try and see what you think. At the top, I traversed left just below the second-to-last bolt, which is a tad easier than the bolted finish.

I also offered to take the first three bolts out.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:41pm PT

No bolting Bob, as a guidebook author you're the one talking out of your ass, knot proving first ascents.

Bob as a guidebook author who considers themselves an authority of Boulder Canyon who were the FA'S of the crags west of Castle Rock?

Step up or Step off.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:46pm PT

Eric wrote: No bolting Bob, as a guidebook author you're the one talking out of your ass, knot proving first ascents.

Talk to me when you see me in the canyon sometime. Until then post the 100's of retro-bolted routes in the canyon.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:52pm PT

Fixed it Locker...Thanks.

Glad you are having fun...:-)

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:54pm PT

I've asked you a dozens time you dumb guido.
Name the FA's of everything west of Castle Rock.
There are at least 200 routes in the immediate vicinity.

I'm going out to a wedding the rest of the night check in tomorrow knuckledraggers.

hugs and kisses!

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:45pm PT

Eric wrote: I've asked you a dozens time you dumb guido.

Dude...your name calling, stupid posts and ethnic slurs are doing nothing for your cause. You are a poser and nothing more.

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:00pm PT

I'm sure the hamster wouldn't see it

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:07pm PT

One of the late Craig Lubben's routes in Colorado, Dags in Beanland on Cedar Park Slab, had about eight protection bolts added and a set of fixed rappel anchors installed. This route was established in 1988 or so and has seen hundreds of ascents (and descents off it for that matter) and is only rated 5.8.

But, someone for some reason found it necessary to add bolts to the first, third and fourth pitches(5.6-5.7 climbing) and also add bolts to create a rappel route, one of the anchors next to a perfectly good tree. BTW, the walkoff is no big deal if you know what you are doing.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 24, 2013 - 09:41pm PT

Colorodo sounds rough! Don't y'all got legal marywanna?

You'd think ppl would be more chill.

Like Locker.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 24, 2013 - 10:05pm PT

The MP entry reads as if the retro-bolter is proud that he didn't attempt to find out the history of the route.

News Flash: Not everybody is happy to hear about established routes getting a hard-handed makeover. True, from my arm-chair, I know little of the thing except what was written on MP.

But I do know this: the route had two bolts and a possibility for more pro with modern gear, why not keep it a mixed climb (bolts & gear) and keep some of the historical thrill with the route?

I don't care if the guy is the King of New Routing; here it's obviously done in bad taste and he deserves all the chaff he's getting.

How about this, from the same report on MP:

I suggest linking P1 & 2, if you are comfortable pulling 5.11a moves above a small ledge.

P1. climb short 5.9 to a small ramp with 2-bolt anchor.

P2. Follow bolts past dihedral, get over the ceiling and continue underclinging to chains.

Does anybody understand wtf this guy means by his caution about linking the two pitches?

I mean, P1 is 5.9 (no 5.11) and P2 is .12c, so what's with the caution about .11a?

I know I don't understand, but from here this dude doesn't gain a lot of respect with the way he struts his stuff.

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Jul 24, 2013 - 10:19pm PT

Talk to to FA party;.....talk to the FA party if you wish to retro bolt...and what they say ...that is word....
(This is gonna be a tough one in the up-coming years when many FA members are deceased from old age or accidents...)....It will be an issue the climbing community will have to deal with..............(Respect for Bob D'A and Kurt Smith for what they have given to the climbing community......big respect....)...

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 24, 2013 - 10:36pm PT

so kurt, do you know the fa?

i'm less scandalized by the new bolts than by the public claim that the fa'ist was a liar and never actually freed the thing. if that's true, then it's a different ball game. don't know the climb outside of the pix-- seems like one of those one-in a-jillion short deals folks did back in the 80s. un-protectable crack system?

if the fa'ist actually did this thing, the re-bolting seems pretty f*#ked. if not, i'm happy to let the locals sort it out.

johntp

Trad climber

socal

Jul 24, 2013 - 10:36pm PT

Just lame as hell and CO climbers need to call Chris out on this. It's one thing to beef up existing bolts but to add bolts to turn it into a sport climb is just lame, whether it is 5.4 or 5.15.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:24pm PT

I am telling you people you are making very foolish assumptions that the line that was recently bolted was ever led free.
Consider that it is right next to a famous 5.13 (China Doll) that is a visually striking line and which has received extensive coverage as it was first done as a bolted sport climb but subsequently led on gear (by very good and bold climbers, obviously).
Tell me, why did none of the China Doll climbers (bolted or gear) ever lead this obvious line right next to it, which by all accounts is a 4-star classic?
And there is no mention of this "Thom Byrne" as establishing any route other than allegedly Archangel--is it reasonable to think that the only route this guy (who no one seems to ever have heard of) ever established is a long, sustained, 4-star, 5.12 X?
I am very familiar with Rossiter's guidebooks and many routes that he established, most of which I like. But if you are taking this alleged FA just from his guidebook (and I haven't seen any reference to any other source), prepare to eat some crow if and when the truth is revealed.

Let me make it clear that I am not calling "Thom Byrne" a liar, I am more doubting his existence or any claim by him that he ever freed the same line that was recently bolted. The whole thing was probably just a Rossiter flight of fancy.
If Mr. Byrne shows up and plausibly claims to have freed it (and if he was anything like a good enough climber to make that a plausible claim), I will gladly make the $100 donation to his favorite 501(c)(3) or charity recipient. (With one exception--Rossiter's guide shows at least one piton; if it was done with pitons that were replaced with bolts, that seems like a public service that no one would complain about.)

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:32pm PT

I talked to Chris and it seems that no one had any info on the status of the FA claim or where the line of the route was. No repeats in 25 years and no info from the first ascent party in place like Boulder that seem to be very strange. Seem he/Chris did his work trying to gather info before bolting it.

I think Chris is a good person and doesn't deserve the slander that he is getting on this thread. Get all the facts and then make a judgement. That would be the wise thing to do.

If Mr Byrne does exist and did do the same route I will also thrown in a $100 to any cause he chooses.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 24, 2013 - 11:37pm PT

I think Bolting Bob's inability to answer simple questions of FA's speaks volumes.

Bob,
Tell us your version of the Sport Park?
Tell us your version of Tonnere Tower and what it was like before '92?

fluffy

Trad climber

Jul 25, 2013 - 12:14am PT

if it was done with pitons that were replaced with bolts, that seems like a public service that no one would complain about

wrong

anyway rossiter's still around and I'm sure the FA info he published wasn't just made up like some are implying. doesn't seem like he was even asked??

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 25, 2013 - 12:40am PT

Ok...the plot thickens...I just talk to Mark Soot who was on the FA of the first pitch with RR and knew and climbed with Thom...seems the pitch in question was established as an aid route as Thom was doing a lot wall climbing at the time. Mark doesn't recall Thom ever climbing that hard at that level of the old route (12c x).

Mark's take on it that Chris did a service to the climbing community by replacing the old bolts and establishing a fine free pitch.

I have contact info for Thom and will try and call him tomorrow sometime. I'm leaving in the AM to go San Francisco to visit my new grandson.

The way it is going doesn't look good for the hanging crew.

steve s

Trad climber

eldo

Jul 25, 2013 - 12:41am PT

Just a little history .....Mission and myself tried freeing this line from the ground up on trad gear in between goes while trying to lead China Doll on gear from the ground WAY back in about 1986 or 1987. This was back in the day when only a hand full of climbers even knew about Dream Canyon. We knew that Kyle Copeland had aided China Doll and we had heard rumors that Thom Byrne had freed this line. While we knew who Thom B. was we never asked him about the route or really questioned the ascent. We just tried to climb it .Same with China Doll. As for the route in question we managed to get up to where you start under clinging and traversing right where we proceeded to be stumped by the lack of gear and the difficult climbing. We reached our high point on the gear that was obviously available at the time and we might have placed 1 piton at our high point to provide a safe way to lower off.
Over the years we never heard of anyone completing this climb except for Thom B.
It's not my place to question the ascent and I have no dog in this fight I am just trying to provide some info and history.
I will add this quote from the late great musician Frank Zappa......"Ultimately who gives a Fuk anyway! " Peace and fuk- nes Steve sangdahl

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 25, 2013 - 12:51am PT

If Mr Byrne does exist and did do the same route I will also thrown in a $100 to any cause he chooses.

sweet

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:36am PT

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM

Jul 24, 2013 - 04:45pm PT

Dude...your name calling, stupid posts and ethnic slurs are doing nothing for your cause. You are a poser and nothing more.

Oh the irony!

Bob,
Tell us your version of the Sport Park?
Tell us your version of Tonnere Tower and what it was like before '92?

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 25, 2013 - 09:48am PT

Eric...post the 100's of retrobolted routes in Boulder Canyon then I will give you a little history lesson.

See you in the canyon sometime.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 25, 2013 - 10:02am PT

So has the abomination been chopped yet or is this another thread of blow-hard old men jerking each other off?

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 25, 2013 - 11:43am PT

Yeah u guys gonna do this all day again?? Let me know if so & I'll cancel my plans to mow the lawn.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 12:28pm PT

one good way to suss out the history of a First Ascent is to alter it and see what the reaction to the modifications is...

it seems that re-equipping routes has been a controversial topic in past threads, and that's a good thing (at least it's about climbing). The whole topic goes back to the origin of the aesthetics of style, a topic that became important once it was realized that using technology could get climbers up anything they wanted to go up... style sets the acceptable amount of technology to use, and is a rather arbitrary concept put into practice.

I've done a few FA's in my time, and the they tended to be on the "lighter" side of technology rather then the heavier... mostly owing to the fact that these FAs were ground-up affairs with no (or very little, e.g. seen from other climbs) inspection. Whether or not a new line has some redeeming value is hard to judge until you've been on it and grappled with it... then you might have had the wherewithal to equip it appropriately for a "fifty seven point six five eight star dick wrenching mega-classic" or abandoned it completely with a "meh."

This isn't the same as developing a sport crag, top-down, with the intent to make a convenient climbing area (nothing wrong with that, in principle).

Once you've made it through the ground-up, perhaps the quality of the route is evident, and worthy of actually having enough equipment on it for others to enjoy, we'd go back and put in the gear...

If it is a "statement climb" the FA may not (I haven't made a "statement climb" the statements I could make are not very significant).

Unless you know the history of the FA you're completely in the dark regarding the appropriateness of re-bolting the routes....

In Yosemite Valley and in Tuolumne, a lot of bolts get chopped. Protection bolts don't tend to be added so much as convenience bolts for belay/rappel anchors. There is a whole other debate regarding this genre of retro-bolting, but convenience bolts are frequently chopped.

In areas of development where routes may not be publicized, FA teams will eventually discover and adjudicate routes that may end up on top of each other... the later route's FA team unaware of the work of a previous FA team. Secrecy in developing an area presumes that no one else will have an eye for the area... not always a good assumption, especially over a long time.

I know that retro-bolting at Lover's Leap is contentious, and that some "new" routes are put over old routes. A vigorous set of locals aware of the history of the place will do the hard work of setting the routes back to their original condition. It's hard work and gets the point across.

And while it would be preferable to track down the history of a climb before modifying it, it's not always done...

...but steeping yourself in the history of a climbing location is a good preliminary and preferable to incurring the wrath of locals (past and present) and having a lot of hard work be chopped for lack of knowledge of the area.

In this particular case, it seems, at least some of that was done.

This will be an issue until the history of all the climbs is recorded... that being impossible (as many of the authors are no longer available) the climbs that had been done and lost to history will face "updating," in many cases the climbing community doesn't even know that they had been done previously.

chill

climber

between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:26pm PT

Goat - Whatever the validity of your position, you weakened it when you called Bob a "dumb guido". If he were black would you have gone with "dumb nigger"? I know its just the internet and all, but I always thought (or hoped) that your average Tacoans were above ethnic insults.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

SLO, Ca

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:51pm PT

It would be interesting to know if any climbers younger than about 40 have gone to the trouble of removing retro bolts and / or convenience bolts.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:17pm PT

It would be interesting to know if any climbers younger than about 40 have gone to the trouble of removing retro bolts and / or convenience bolts.

Convenience bolts are not just a younger generation thing. It seems like every year there is an application to the Eldorado Fixed Hardware Review Committee to add fixed anchors to popular trad routes(1st pitch of Blind Faith and 1st pitch of King's X come to mind) so climbers don't have to do the upper pitches and can just rappel off after doing the 1st pitch.

Surprisingly, at least to me, some of the strongest supporters of adding these fixed anchors are some of the old guard who pioneered hard free climbing in Eldorado. One of them told me their reason for wanting the anchors is that they wore tight shoes and they wanted to get the pitch over and back to the ground because their feet hurt. Sad.

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:46pm PT

Everyone knows that fixed anchors are so you can get back to your beer quickly;...that is common knowlege..

caughtinside

Social climber

Oakland, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 04:54pm PT

That route got done by two guys who post here on the same day last winter and both said it was nothing special.

Alexey

climber

San Jose, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:02pm PT

It's especially funny to see which of the knee jerkers spouted off on MtnProj, without knowing a g@#$%mn thing about the route in question

Good point Elcap. some of them even registered today on MP to announce the vision about the ethics

Edit 15 hours later: I noticed that Kalen Glenn who registered today on MP to condemn retrobolting of the route in question - removed his the only one post.
I mentioned this , as now my above remarks linked to the void

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:19pm PT

Me wonders what Largo and Rick Accomazzo would think about
retrobolting?

Levy

Big Wall climber

So Cal

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:44pm PT

I am gonna go out to Eldo & place 10 or 11 bolts on Perlilous Journey. Since it rarely gets climbed it's Ok for me to retro bolt it as I see fit, right? I'm gonna put in at least 10 of the new 3/8 S.S. bolts & hangers on that thing so more "common folk" can get up it.

Maybe when I go to Tuolomne Meadows next week I'll put some more bolts on some of those runout routes that nobody does these days. You Asked For It is gonna be one of the best sport routes when I get thru having my way with it! F!#@ing cool dude!! do I get to re-name it too?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:50pm PT

Me wonders what Largo and Rick Accomazzo would think about
retrobolting?

Rick A: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1617265

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:55pm PT

I am gonna go out to Eldo & place 10 or 11 bolts on Perlilous Journey.

Weak strawman. Super weak.

Also - Perilous Journey gets climbed all the time - on TR - and it's not in Eldo.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 25, 2013 - 05:59pm PT

Hey Levy, do me a favor & put permanent draws on you asked for it & perilous journey too so I only need to carry a rope, Grigri & one "dog" draw up there. I mean do it right y'know. Cheers.

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:06pm PT

^^^....Xactly Levi.....

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:22pm PT

I am gonna go out to Eldo & place 10 or 11 bolts on Perlilous Journey. Since it rarely gets climbed it's Ok for me to retro bolt it as I see fit, right?

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/perilous-journey/105750580
So what if Dave Breashears gives you permission to do this? Does that then make it OK?
What if Breashears wants to retro-bolt it himself? Is that OK?
Hmmmm……

I would consider retro-bolting to be very route specific, and in the case of the route in question it is beginning to sound like it is nothing more than an unfinished project; at the very most a route that nobody here can claim to have climbed or point to someone who did climb it.
For now, concerning this route, I agree with Steve S and FZ:
"Ultimately who gives a Fuk anyway!"

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:26pm PT

It's unfortunate so many tiny and emotional minds inject themselves into this. It's a good topic - totally ruined every time it comes up.

CW and MS are extremely experienced, both with long histories of some of the boldest trad ascents done in NA. They're local, well known and liked and are very familiar with the history of the area. They've both contributed a ton to the community. Their past actions have been well accepted, they both have well known histories of working with past ascentionists and land managers.

Maybe think about who you are ripping into before you spout about how cool you think you and your ethics are and the small pile of dumb-shlt-easy climbs you've done.

Kalimon

Social climber

Ridgway, CO

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:34pm PT

Tom Byrne lives in Telluride . . . still climbs.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:50pm PT

Why do people have to keep calling others "old" or "armchair" or "tiny" as though they themselves are young, active and large?

F88k you HUGE SPASTIC A.D.D. PUPPY.

Most of us here have earned our stripes and our right to an opinion same as you. After all, you're here bitching on the thread too, you're just bitching about something else. So take YOU'RE version of holier than thou and ram it up the poopshoot (as FZ sez) because you're not really more informed than anyone else.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:55pm PT

Bob, the majority of the Sport Park is all retro bolted as well as the crag slab west of Castle Rock. That is at least 70 routes you have claimed as someone elses FA's in your guidebook that were first written down in big book at Neptunes.

Why did you ignore the open book of FA's at Neptunes when you wrote your "guide"?
Your reputation as a blowhard never ceases to amaze.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:57pm PT

Tad, reading comprehension, try it sometime. You might start with the part where I wrote that I've chopped retrobolted routes in the past.

Tom Byrne lives in Telluride . . . still climbs.

Cool. Should be easy enought to get the facts then. Anybody got a call into him yet?

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:57pm PT

because you're not really more informed than anyone else.

I know where Perilous Journey is, bro, and I can spell it too.

Evel

Trad climber

Nedsterdam CO

Jul 25, 2013 - 06:59pm PT

I find myself intrigued by the way people post comments that are directly aimed at one person or another that I doubt very much would be said face to face.

I call it "keyboard muscles".

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:02pm PT

Reading comprehension is so important. I never said a word about Perilous Journey, someone else did.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:10pm PT

Reading comprehension is so important.

Feel free to replace "anyone else" in your statement with "I am".

Is this the best you man-children can put out? I'm getting bored. CW is probably laughing his ass off. Way to stick it to him.

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:16pm PT

Specific examples and personal attacks aside, I think this all comes down to whether climbing should have have any ethical standards. Are there any principles and traditions that worth of being respected and preserved, or should it be a total free for all where everyone just does whatever their heart (or ego) desires?

The FA party doesn't "own" the route, but generally their accomplishment is worthy of some respect. Intentionally altering a route should include the FA's perspective, otherwise you are saying is that what you want is more important than their accomplishment. Also, the original experience is now gone. Regardless of whether you "skip" the new bolts, you can still see them.

Bold climbing at any grade has great rewards and should be preserved. Altering a climb to make it safer is seldom an adequate justification for altering someone else's accomplishments or vision. There are so many documented routes it is easy to find something else you can handle until your testicular or ovarian mass it up to the challenge.

If all civility fails, there is still the time honored tradition of the campground or parking lot beat-down for the FA party to express their displeasure with your decision making paradigm.

Cheers and namaste

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:32pm PT

Feel free to replace "anyone else" in your statement with "I am".

WTF? Please show me where my statement says "anyone else". And what would I replace with "I am"?

Way to go man child, you sure showed me what fer....HA!

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:33pm PT

Stahlbro nails it.... well said.

The topic of ethics, always gets the juces flowing.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:34pm PT

Way to go!

Bold climbing at any grade has great rewards and should be preserved. Altering a climb to make it safer is seldom an adequate justification for altering someone else's accomplishments or vision. There are so many documented routes it is easy to find something else you can handle until your testicular or ovarian mass it up to the challenge.

The dude placed more bolts on that route than the entire first ascent of the Salathe Wall.
Yeah, he's my new hero. All hail the new bolt King!

Evel

Trad climber

Nedsterdam CO

Jul 25, 2013 - 07:41pm PT

If all civility fails, there is still the time honored tradition of the campground or parking lot beat-down for the FA party to express their displeasure with your decision making paradigm.

Now we're getting somewhere!

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 25, 2013 - 08:07pm PT

Keyboard muscles would make a great route name, mind if I use that??

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 25, 2013 - 08:22pm PT

Parking lot beatdown guy closes with 'namaste'. Classic.

So which of you internet tough guys has actually done something... like go chop the sport weenie's bolts already!

Evel

Trad climber

Nedsterdam CO

Jul 25, 2013 - 08:22pm PT

Thanks for asking RyanD. Be my guest.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 25, 2013 - 08:27pm PT

Elcap:

I never agree with Blahblah, until now.

Blahblah's speculation seems like the most likely scenario to me, route was probably TR'd with the intention of cleaning, finding clipable bolt placements, and then bolting later, or done on a combo of pins and bolts with the pins now gone . . .

Be careful, agreeing with me may mean you're making a big mistake: it'll turn out that Thom Byrne actually did free the route in what was the defining moment of his life, and the retro-bolts are a devastating destruction of what was to be his monument to posterity!

More seriously--I mean absolutely no disrespect to Mr. Byrne, or to Richard Rossiter, who I respect as a guidebook author and route developer. Glad that my at least somewhat specific knowledge of the area and relevant guidebooks could play a little role in solving the mystery of this one, although I think the jury's still out as to what happened until we hear from Mr. B or someone else with first-hand knowledge. I'm hoping and expecting that when the dust clears, everyone will be happy with the result, and I'm looking forward to trying the route within the next couple of weeks.

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 26, 2013 - 05:08am PT

I should first say that Iv'e never been to Colorado and as a climber its a real bummer to have to admit so. I have however been to the crags a bit. The most relevant post in the entire thread to me is this one-

Quote Just a little history .....Mission and myself tried freeing this line from the ground up on trad gear in between goes while trying to lead China Doll on gear from the ground WAY back in about 1986 or 1987. This was back in the day when only a hand full of climbers even knew about Dream Canyon. We knew that Kyle Copeland had aided China Doll and we had heard rumors that Thom Byrne had freed this line. While we knew who Thom B. was we never asked him about the route or really questioned the ascent. We just tried to climb it . Same with China Doll. As for the route in question we managed to get up to where you start under clinging and traversing right where we proceeded to be stumped by the lack of gear and the difficult climbing. We reached our high point on the gear that was obviously available at the time and we might have placed 1 piton at our high point to provide a safe way to lower off.
Over the years we never heard of anyone completing this climb except for Thom B.

Here is one old bastards opinion. CW is probably a well like'd and very talented climber. Sounds like he's an all around great guy. I don't know, Iv'e never met the man. Has Archangel ever seen a free ascent? At this point I suspect not but I may be wrong. However, to me thats not the point.

Almost thirty years ago Steve S and Co. tried to repeat the line by going ground up as safely as possible. In between burns on China Doll no less! They bailed unscathed. In my opinion, the current crew should have at least tried to do the same. THIRTY YEARS LATER. Especially given the fact that they climb very well.

The fact is that weather Thom freed the route or not, the climb now sports fourteen bolts and is no more than another outdoor gym route sprayed about all over the world wide web. Not the best message to send to hungry young generations of rock climbers.

Again, just one crusters opinion.

For Thom's sake, I hope he never did free the route.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Jul 26, 2013 - 09:07am PT

I like how the commentators on MP.com chalk it up to the "narcissism of the 80's."

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 26, 2013 - 11:02am PT

China Doll, (the route right next to Archangel) five letter grades harder, was freed on natural gear not all that long ago after it was first freed using bolts.
Narcissism of the Twenty first century climber I suppose.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:08pm PT

I never understood why it wasn't perfectly ok to leave routes as topropes. Gym bolting a route just so you can look cool leading it seems far more narcissistic.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:15pm PT

No sh#t eh?
But toproping doesn't show ballz, like the ability to stretch out your reality! We must LEAD to be real men!

But it's easier to be manly with 14 bolts.

CW and MS are extremely experienced, both with long histories of some of the boldest trad ascents done in NA.

And what LONG HISTORIES of the BOLDEST TRAD ASCENTS in NA would that be?

He doesn't sound like the boldest dude in North America to me.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:43pm PT

Supertopo's reputation as home of aging never-was wannabees is holding up well in this thread, I see. At least get your facts straight in your spew, I'm embarrassed for some of you.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:02pm PT

Way to not answer the question about their long history of the boldest trad in NA son.

We're embarrassed for you Colorado boys too.
Nice spew though.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:05pm PT

Use Google, you stupid fool. MS has a book out.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:10pm PT

Supertopo's reputation as home of aging never-was wannabees is holding up well in this thread, I see.

Yeah, nothing like the current generation sallying forth to prove their mettle with a double digit rack of quickdraws.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:12pm PT

Nice one bihilden!

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

SLO, Ca

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:23pm PT

Um, totally not true.

Current generation is crushing all over the place in all styles.

Truth is all the current butt hurt about bolts originated in the 70s and 80s by the same generation that is whining about it now. Go to the UK if you don't like them.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:28pm PT

Generations don't change substantially....each one has it's share of doers, whiners, leaders, followers etc., etc.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

SLO, Ca

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:32pm PT

Yup.

Once it became ok to use a hammer while climbing the results are just a matter of degree.

Some places are and always were hammer free-- the U.S. is not one of those places.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:55pm PT

Use Google, you stupid fool. MS has a book out.

Let us know when your balls drop. Google that, son.

steve s

Trad climber

eldo

Jul 26, 2013 - 02:29pm PT

Aloha, As I mentioned in my previous post, Mission and I tried to lead this from the ground up BITD. It did not seem that scary to us on the gear we had in circa 1987 (no alien or lowe balls,maybe some tcu,s). The route had no anchors and we assumed it went to the top as per the style at the time. It had perhaps 1 pin and 1 bolt. We eventually gave up on it. I later went on to put in a number of bolt routes in Dream Canyon but never returned to this route.I believe Richard R. or Bob H. put some anchors in and also the the bolts on the 3rd pitch(1st pitch 5.9 was led bolt free). Bob H. may have also led the pitch in question.
As with the "evolution" of this climbs neighbor,China Doll which eventually got "fully" bolted and free climbed and then later led on gear without clipping the bolts....I predict Archangel will also be led on gear without clipping the bolts(except the anchors).
Ultimately I do not care that it got "fully" bolted for todays "modern hardman" climber, it just would have been nice if Chris W. asked the first ascensionist or did more research and talked to the climbers who put up routes in Dream Canyon or at least stepped up to the plate and tried leading it on gear before proceeding with the bolting.
If Chris W. had talked to the Thom B. and others active in Dream Canyon or had tried to lead it on gear ,at least report that in the route data base. Either way its going to make a good story! Peace and Fuk-nes Steve Sangdahl

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 02:33pm PT

The entire thread is well summed up by a word from one of the earlier posts in it: "engineered".

But the writing has been on the wall for decades now that 'safety' was going to turn climbing into just another risk-free, suburban pastime. The decades ahead will no doubt see a wave of safety engineering on the countless irresponsible FAs put up around the country in days gone by.

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 26, 2013 - 02:40pm PT

My point Joe is this, TR rehearsal or not if there is solid natural gear available use it the first time. Especially when gearing the thing on rappel. There may not be good gear in this case but it sounds like there is and if so, why not give it a good old fashioned go? Its certainly not close to a cutting edge grade.

JLP, nobody posting on this thread is as intelligent, informed, as young, or as cool as you are. You've made that very clear. It takes a true friend like you to cup CW's balls through this process but I suspect he is a big enough boy now to speak (or not) for himself.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 02:44pm PT

The strawman argument that 'this generation' only sport climbs only proves JLP's point. 'This generation' is warming up on the trad projects of 20 years ago.... oh and they stay strong from bouldering, gym climbing, and yeah, sport climbing. Yes, 'your' generation could have learned a few things from modern methods of training.

As far as rock goes, as soon as you sink one bolt, you may as well sew it up. The impact is the same, and you aren't beholden to an arbitrary standard of FA's mood that week. The brits have it right: either bolts are ok or no bolts at all at a given crag.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 02:55pm PT

Bacher's climbs have stood the test of time in that they get repeated. A 12c route (moderate by today's standards, esp in Boudler) that doesn't see a second ascent in 25 years is museum piece.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:00pm PT

I guess you could repaint a picaso too,, but that wont be the same or worth a damm either.

This is the crux of the argument. The FA isn't an artist, they equip the rock to be climbed. Pure cracks need no bolts, that is a given. But to me, and a growing concensus of 'this generation' (Pinklebear?), the route needs to be at a standard for that area and that community. Look at the rest of the routes at this canyon, every one I looked at is a sport climb. One obvious line held hostage by some murky FA history is a sore thumb. Want bold? .... go to Eldo.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:02pm PT

Put in about 20 bolts per pitch and i can DAWG my way up that gorgeous pathway! Where does it all end?

You can dawg, or aid your way up the nose, and many do. What is your point?

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:02pm PT

News flash, twenty years ago climbers were warming up on 12.c as well. Not nearly as many as now yes, but the real talents of today are climbing three NUMBER grades beyond the level of this route.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:03pm PT

DMT, yes inevitable, and we will all be the poorer for it. Climbing is well on its way to becoming a typical "sport" where 99% of the masses will engage in a safe, highly dumbed-down version of the activity and worship a commercially supported 1% who will be hero/fan worshiped. It's a sea-change from when climbing was 'unsafe' and you had to had to quickly develop a minimal skill set and competence or quickly exit stage left.

In short, it's a clip-up world ahead with rock being consumed it at an aggressive rate to feed as can be clearly evidenced in the recent [d]evolution of BC and many other places around the country.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:04pm PT

It did not seem that scary to us ...

From the last piece of aid gear you bailed off of? Dude - stfu.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:07pm PT

DMT: This sport is also like rock and roll.... innovation belongs to youth.

Sure, if you consider a rack of 14 quickdraws innovative.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:10pm PT

What are Lowe balls? Is that when ur balls drop & u can become a hard man & use them for protection? Just trying to keep up here.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:15pm PT

In short, it's a clip-up world ahead with rock being consumed it at an aggressive rate to feed as can be clearly evidenced in the recent [d]evolution of BC and many other places around the country.

Absolute BS, more climbers are tradding at a higher level than ever before. Men, women, and children. In fact, bouldering and trad are quickest growing areas of the sport.

I know it doesn't fit into your black and white 'ethics' of 1975, but more is getting done and at a higher and bolder level than any other time in history.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:15pm PT

In short, it's a clip-up world ahead with rock being consumed it at an aggressive rate to feed as can be clearly evidenced in the recent [d]evolution of BC and many other places around the country.

Nah, you're just freaking out because you believe what random dudes write on the Internet who don't have anything better to do and either make up sh#t or slant what's happened so much that it's the same thing.
Classic routes in Boulder Canyon are not getting retro-bolted, and there is no movement to retro-bolt them. Who knows what will happen in the future, but that's not happening now. Perhaps there is odd exception (Archangel could be one, but doesn't sound like it so far), but they are very much just that. I can think of one semi-famous route that was retro-bolted with the permission of the FA (Hot Flyer); world didn't come to an end, and I don't think many people think that routes protected with fixed bashies (original Hot Flyer) are or should be climbing's future.

It sounds like there was a secret top-roping gang that got mad when some guys put in bolts on their favorite moderate top ropes (probably without knowledge of them) some years ago, but that's kind of an outlier.

Edit--I thought the same thing that JLP wrote in response to Steve S's seeming irreconcilable comments that (1) route didn't seem that scary, and (2) he couldn't do it and added a piton (to a route he thought had been freed) to safely retreat! But I'm not here to bust anyone's balls.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:21pm PT

Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO

Jul 25, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
I find myself intrigued by the way people post comments that are directly aimed at one person or another that I doubt very much would be said face to face.

I call it "keyboard muscles".

Actually I think Bob and I would be saying the same thing unfortunately the tone and smirking of how it is said is lost in these forums.

There is also an extreme difference in how west coast, east coast and southerns express themselves. The jocularity and ribbing between climber and skiers generally seems lost in translation to some western folk.

I have to be careful of what I say to my California friends who tend to be a little more PC then my friends in NYC or New Orleans.

shrug/

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:23pm PT

Ill give you a personal account here Patrick. I did many of Bill Todds routes from bitd. He was known for BOLDNESS and that might be putting it mildly. There was ONE route of his i hadnt done which was ALWAYS on my mind. Tapestry at Sugar loaf. But because of the death defying amount of climbing to get to THE first bolt, i had only touched the bottom 20 moves then the sackage would fail me. BUT it remained a reminder and nemesis in which i compared the runouts on my own routes - so that aided me in doing my routes by just thinking on it.

Then, it got retrobolted over by TWO different routes turning it into a "trade" route of the area. The dream the nemesis and the aid it gave me all ended then. And it was sad, as if my own psyche had been torn. If anything it was the Tahoe greater regions Bachar/Yerian and its long gone..

I get where you are coming from. The easy response would be 'then don't clip the bolts', but I get why the magic is gone with the steel there. However, more and more people are climbing and there is less and less new lines for people. How many people did this route before the bolts? a handfull. Now, as you say, a handful every day. I used to have a two lane road in front of my house, now it is a freeway. More people have more places to go.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:25pm PT

As far as rock goes, as soon as you sink one bolt, you may as well sew it up.

Pretty lame point of view, and sad to think some folks actually think this is a valid stance.

"Tastes change over time but its the active climbers who decide, not the graybeards."

Perhaps, but it's also the older generation who needs to teach values to the young (unless you want to live in a world full of disrespect).

Slowly we're discovering the history of the route, and we're also finding out more about the bolter. And I still feel he blew it. I obviously can't change the action taken, but perhaps others will see another course before repeating the same mistake.

Great, CW used a slew of bolts to "engineer" another cool looking sport climb. But if that climb takes good, natural gear, it could have been so much more than an outdoor gym route.

I'm paraphrasing an old, dead climber when I say "They're chipping 5.13 routes now, but will soon be looking for natural 5.14 lines."

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:27pm PT

I predict Archangel will also be led on gear without clipping the bolts(except the anchors).

Already talking about it on mountain proj! I'm rackin' up!

Ultimately I do not care that it got "fully" bolted for todays "modern hardman" climber, it just would have been nice if Chris W. asked the first ascensionist or did more research and talked to the climbers who put up routes in Dream Canyon or at least stepped up to the plate and tried leading it on gear before proceeding with the bolting.
If Chris W. had talked to the Thom B. and others active in Dream Canyon or had tried to lead it on gear ,at least report that in the route data base. Either way its going to make a good story!

^^^Yup!! And already a good story for us cubicle pukes!

Don't you'all go gettin yourself riled up over JLP's negative comments; he brings in the bitter and negativety to most of his posts and he obviously has a little man-love for these guys and doesn't like seeing thier precious nuts being de-cupped.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:33pm PT

Pretty lame point of view, and sad to think some folks actually think this is a valid stance.

Lame from what point of view? ethics? whose? a hiker looking up at 3 bolts, then a section that takes gear, and then a few more bolts then a chain anchor doesn't know the difference this 20' of runout means to 'ethical' climbers.

But admittedly, I don't necessarily believe my statement entirely, but it is worth considering. Many routes in the Needles have significant runouts on a single bolt or pin. The rock has been altered, that is unquestionable, the question is to what degree. The FAs in the Needles made the decision to protect at where they themselves felt was appriate to the line of boldness they themselves wanted to ride and the understood ethics of the area, but holes were drilled, just a question of how many limits subsequent ascents.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:40pm PT

In fact, bouldering and trad are quickest growing areas of the sport.

Bouldering, absolutely - no confusing ropes or nasty harnesses spoiling the lines of those perfect derrieres. Why here in PDX we have several bouldering-only gyms. Hell, I know more than a couple of folks bouldering V5-7 who have been at it since those gyms opened and none of them have ever climbed roped or outside more than once. And then they found the experience entirely disagreeable as it was nothing like what they did and they're still pulling down hard on plastic today.

But trad? As a percentage of the total climbing demographic? Dude, that number has, and continues to, plunge so a slight up-tick while deep diving to a single digit percentage hardly counts as "growing". You're confusing a still very small percentage of a overall growing demographic as 'growth' when the opposite is actually the reality. Oh, and let's be honest here, the vast majority of them aren't trad climbing, they're sport climbing on gear dogging their way up routes. The use of gear as the sole definition of 'trad' climbing is simply another way of co-opting it and pushing it further from 'climbing' into the shadowy oblivion of 'adventure climbing'.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:43pm PT

Lame from what point of view?

patrick, many folks free climb to feel what it's like to get up sections of stone using what's naturally there. The addition of bolts next to naturally-available protection is in direct contrast to the basic principle of free climbing.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:48pm PT

Trying to figure out what is more retarded, refitting a route without permission or climbing refitted route & skipping the bolts? What's the point? The bolts are there, giving u a cop out in case u forgot your low balls.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:52pm PT

Trying to figure out what is more retarded, refitting a route without permission or ...

200+ posts of wankery on the internet.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:54pm PT

The "basic principle of free-climbing" is being rapidly cast aside in the march to safely commoditize rock for accommodate a broadly lower common denominator. Some view that as a big 'win' for climbing, others view it as just another mundane form of suburbanization.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:57pm PT

JLP

Social climber
The internet

Jul 26, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Trying to figure out what is more retarded, refitting a route without permission or ...
200+ posts of wankery on the internet.

Meh
Have you seen the political posts on here?
At least this is regarding climbing.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:58pm PT

DMT: It may be in direct contrast to clean climbing, but not free climbing. Free climbing has been bolt protected now for 100 years or more hasn't it?

Your talent as a retro-historian re-shading a colorful reality to an indistinguishable and foggy gray is indisputably always breaking new ground, but you may be outdoing yourself here.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:59pm PT

It may be in direct contrast to clean climbing, but not free climbing.

No, I am talking free climbing, where you attempt to use what's naturally provided.

I am not discussing bolts vs. no bolts. I'm talking about minimizing the number of bolts used, especially when viable alternatives exist. Putting a bolt next to a protectable crack goes against the free-climbing meme.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:01pm PT

DMT, are you saying that you think it's OK to bolt-protect cracks?

Wow.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:06pm PT

Jim wrote: Generations don't change substantially....each one has it's share of doers, whiners, leaders, followers etc., etc.

Word!!

Jim Erickson..."most great climbs have been done with somewhat dubious means"...From the movie "On The Rock".

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:09pm PT

No, you just joined the cadre of guys who, now old, suddenly has no qualms with retro-bolting or any other form of bastardization. In fact, one can only surmise one day or another you, like them, woke up and suddenly realized every climber has always been doing all these things all along on every climb in every place worldwide. The exceptions are suddenly the [retro-]norm. It's a comfortable and convenient "it's all good" history no doubt.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:19pm PT

Your truth has not outlasted your own generation.

True, it is hard for truth to hold up when former 'adventure climbers' like you take every opportunity to shovel a complete raft of super-normative bullshit on it.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:21pm PT

Kinda bogus as the route in question was never "bold" or done free up till Chris did it.

Time to move on and bash some other poor soul.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:22pm PT

Joe...do you live in bubble?

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:28pm PT

But anyway, cleaning climbing, free climbing, ethics rules are all in support of two things: competition and commercialization.

Saying free climbing is all about competition and commercialization, you go Dingus. Slay 'em.

No, I'm not bitter, as you attempt to characterize me. But you, sir, are as arrogant as the mid-summer day is long.

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:32pm PT

"Poor soul".....Please

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:40pm PT

Well I'm glad we got that sorted out.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:41pm PT

Hmmm, I thought this was directed at me, and I felt all butt-hurt:

You're just bitter.

DMT

As for the truth, I'm not quite sure I agree with your version of it.

So it goes.

'Hoist' back at 'cha!

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:44pm PT

Haha so much butthurt going on here.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:48pm PT

Try baby wipes locker. They work for a itchy butt as well as the butthurt :-)

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:48pm PT

DMT: Ok. I'm arrogant for pointing out the truth.

No, you're arrogant for attempting to paint exceptions as the norm.

Bob: Joe...do you live in bubble?

No, the rapidly expanding bubble is definitely your McProvince.

Bummer a graph isn't available to show the number of bolts sunk per year over the past three decades. We all know where that graph is headed...

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 26, 2013 - 05:36pm PT

Dmt, how many routes have you put up?

Chim - how many times have you climbed Archangel on gear?

the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2013 - 05:38pm PT

wow. i go to drink a PBR or three and see whats happening on Mother Jones website, i come back and were almost to 300 posts. And it seems like its a lot of slander and name calling. damn.
guess i'll switch to red wine tonight and watch a movie.
you guys need to go climbing or get laid.
kurt

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 26, 2013 - 06:01pm PT

Ah the tradsters of the Golden Age, sitting on the porch, fartin and telling them damn youngsters toget off the lawn . Not even their lawn.

FRUMY

Trad climber

Bishop,CA

Jul 26, 2013 - 06:06pm PT

See what these marijuana laws have done.

The state gets high & the whole place needs to be retro bolted.

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Jul 26, 2013 - 06:22pm PT

There is skill and artistry in placing removable protection. It is part of the game. When everything is a clip-up we will have lost something important.

I will never forget tying off knobs in Tuolumne and the Needles. Hope routes like Nothingness and Eternity never get extra bolts.

Edit:

LoL Locker!

I got no problem climbing clip-ups and do it all the time. I just think there are different experiences that need to be preserved.

The Wedge

Boulder climber

Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA

Jul 26, 2013 - 06:24pm PT

Let me know if you want it back to its original state. IM out west for a bit.

ChrisWeidner

climber

Boulder, CO

Jul 26, 2013 - 07:24pm PT

I should have made more of an effort than I did to contact Thom Byrne for permission before I added bolts to Archangel. I apologize for offending so many people over this.

I did ask many locals and contemporaries of Thom (including Bob Horan, Pat Adams, Bruce Miller, Joe Mills, Taylor Roy, Matt Samet and many more) about Archangel's history. To everyone I spoke with it was a mystery, and the one thing that everyone agreed with is that it would be great if somebody cleaned it and made it a safer lead. "Safer lead" is obviously subjective, so by no means am I implicating anyone I named with supporting exactly what I did.

This is what I actually did:

There were a total of 7 bolts and 2 two-bolt anchors on Archangel before I touched anything. The last bolt and top anchor were on a blank wall, too far to the right of the free climbing (at least free climbing that's not at least 13+) to be of use. This is just one reason why I believe that Archangel -- as it was equipped -- was never freed.

I removed the top anchor and placed a new anchor about 15 feet to the left, at the logical end of the 5.12 climbing. I also removed two old (one buttonhead, one old 3/8" with SMC hanger) bolts. I then placed 10 new 3/8" bolts. Ultimately, I added 8 protection bolts and replaced two. This is Archangel.

I also placed two bolts above the Archangel anchor and a higher two-bolt anchor, thinking that I could free an additional 20 feet of very thin rock. After several attempts I realize it's too hard for me right now. I'm happy to leave those bolts for others to try, but I'm just as happy to remove them and the anchor if that's what locals would prefer. My two additional bolts plus the two original "off-route" bolts are what I called the "stray" bolts.

I easily trundled two very large (100-pound plus?) and loose flakes off the route my first trip down it on rappel, and I cleaned many smaller rocks and flakes. To me, the route seemed unnecessarily dangerous without serious cleaning.
All of the bolting and cleaning was done on rappel.

One commentator asked what was wrong with top-roping, and I say nothing is wrong with it. But even if you rap in from the top of the cliff Archangel leans too hard to the right to TR it safely (that is, without an enormous swing, possibly into rocks) without at least 6 or 8 protection points. And in this case most would have to be bolts.

Again, I'm sorry for not trying harder than I did to contact Thom Byrne and ask his permission to add bolts to Archangel. If it turns out that he did free it in the '80s and if my actions are even a fraction as repulsive to him as it seems they are to most on this forum, then I will immediately remove all of the bolts I added.

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Jul 26, 2013 - 07:35pm PT

LOCKER... so if your in a "confessions" mood: Please tell us what you know about DOUBLECROSS????

This is the best topic on the Taco right now. I just love the back and forth...

The venting of long pent up anger, distrust and hatred.

Me thinks that SmellyGoat and BigBobD'A have something between them that is not good.

I do agree with DMT on this being a "LOCAL" issue.

S.Leeper

Social climber

somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'

Jul 26, 2013 - 07:37pm PT

Thanks Chris for your side of the story! Now we just need to hear from Thom.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 26, 2013 - 07:40pm PT

No big whoop Chris, thanks for checking in, they don't call it Bolted Canyon for nothing.

Sorry about the "gayer than a bouquet of penises" crack, it was directed more at your writing style than your love of dicks.

Cheers!
Eric

steve s

Trad climber

eldo

Jul 26, 2013 - 07:43pm PT

Thanks Chris for setting the record straight. Once again I do not care that the route received hopefully its final engineering and perhaps It's first free ascent. Also thanks for talking to Bob H. As I figured he might have given it a go on gear. Thanks again.
Just to clarify when I stated that "it was not that scary to us".....where Mission and I got to on the route was approx. 20 ft. From the present anchor, to that point and on the antique gear we were using it really did not seem like an x-rated climb. We backed off due to a combination of a lack of decent pro and insufficient climbing skills.....I.E. we were WEAK!!!
As for the negative comments by our "anonymous coward" known as JLP.....until you sack up and try to lead the climb in question from the ground up ,on trad gear(as I have) and reach my high point (approx. 20 ft from the new anchor) I suggest YOU STFU .
Also as a side note of all the posters on this thread it seems Chris and I are the only ones who have been on the pitch in question and have firsthand knowledge of the climb.....except I was on it about 26 years ago. Peace and fuk-nes Steve Sangdahl Now Puke!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 26, 2013 - 07:54pm PT

Chris: Again, I'm sorry for not trying harder than I did to contact Thom Byrne and ask his permission to add bolts to Archangel. If it turns out that he did free it in the '80s and if my actions are even a fraction as repulsive to him as it seems they are to most on this forum, then I will immediately remove all of the bolts I added.

We may disagree on the role of 'safety' in climbing, but much respect for that post.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 26, 2013 - 08:02pm PT

Thanks for posting up Chris... Very cool to hear the retro-bolt story from you directly. Not everybody in your situation does the same--lay out what you did and why, and offer to make it better if things are not what they seem. That's standing up.

I'm still curious about a couple of things... It doesn't seem like the route, in the state in which you found it, had much of a chance of being previously freed (loose rock, funky bolt placements). Before getting on it, what did you think the story was with the old reports?

How does linking the pitches add a ledge-fall potential--is it as Joe says and a result of not clipping the P1 anchor? (Just curious here, that seemed like an odd note about linking the pitches.)

If there were opportunities for natural pro, would you have placed fewer bolts, or do you think the route climbs better as a pure sport climb? There's a 5* climb in the Meadows of the same grade that has both bolts and natural gear for pro, and that gives it a lot of its character. But I also know that when you're racking mostly draws, the tendency is to not want to worry about bringing a few pieces for one or two placements. So I'm curious if the idea of a mixed bolt/natural pro climb is something you considered (knowing that folks had previously tried to free the route with gear).

Dingus is right--this is your area and getting flack from non-locals is, in a way, out of order. Still, we're all passionate about our sport (obviously), and we're all interested in seeing it grow in positive directions.

Cheers,

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 26, 2013 - 08:05pm PT

Good post by Chris W.

Sadly we are all locals on the Internet.

bergbryce

Mountain climber

California

Jul 26, 2013 - 08:55pm PT

I'm not local, but it would amaze me if a well known climber would re-equip a route without doing a fair amount of research and determining what people thought of re-working some dusty, nearly forgotten route. Otherwise there would be hell to pay every time he showed up at a crag, shop, gym, whatever. Do you guys really think this dude is that stupid? I don't.

I personally wish trad was getting less popular here.

MisterE

climber

Jul 26, 2013 - 11:03pm PT

Chris, thanks for owning up. Checking with the first ascentionist before retro-bolting is a real sore spot to most of us who would even consider it.

Hell, I asked permission from Alan Watts to add a bolt on Karate Wall years ago, got it - and it was chopped within a year.

Carpe Diem but check in with the FA

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 27, 2013 - 12:37am PT

Good job Chris, way to jump into the middle of stuff here.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 28, 2013 - 08:54am PT

Apparently Chris's apology here was not accepted by one Mr. Long... see mp link from OP.

You guys need to take notes, your tirades are chicken scratch compared to his old man steeze. Time to up your game trad dads.

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Jul 28, 2013 - 10:03am PT

I don't know the story about any of this. But that chris guy had the balls to speak up and present his side eloquently in a straight forward manner. Hopefully that will be the start of the talks that end in a fair, equitable solution to all of this.

Rankin

Social climber

Greensboro, North Carolina

Jul 28, 2013 - 10:18am PT

The modern climber seems obliged to create routes for consumption rather than sport.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 28, 2013 - 10:39am PT

[quote]

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming

Jul 28, 2013 - 07:03am PT
I don't know the story about any of this. But that chris guy had the balls to speak up and present his side eloquently in a straight forward manner. Hopefully that will be the start of the talks that end in a fair, equitable solution to all of this.
[/quote

Well we are still waiting for Bob's explanation on why he blew off the big book at Neptunes of first ascents in Boulder Canyon and went with the second ascents listed on Mountain Project for his guidebook.

NBD all in all, just asking why Bob feels the need to not research local resourses when writing his guide, lazy, incompetent, I guess we will never know until he answers the question.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 28, 2013 - 10:45am PT

Jaybro....the Chris guy is one straight up dude. 5:14 b sport climber and damned good at trad also. Writes a climbing column for the Boulder Camera. I was with him in Iran and Tajikistan two years ago and he was delightful to travel with.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 28, 2013 - 11:23am PT

Good job Chris, way to jump into the middle of stuff here.

You're an ass. He repeated nearly verbatim what was originally posted on MP.com, nothing new. Why didn't you repeat some of the things you said about him?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 28, 2013 - 12:29pm PT

John Long flames a prominent Boulder climber after he apologizes. Does that make it better or worse?

Relationships are more important than rock, bolts, retrobolts, 25 year old routes.

raymond phule

climber

Jul 28, 2013 - 01:41pm PT

The general discussion of retrobolting could be interesting but the slippery slope arguments that starts from retrobolting a route that might have had a FFA 25 years ago and that noone seemed to care about after that is not really that interesting.

It must be possibly to consider great and important climbs with bad protection and climbs that noone cares about in the current state differently.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jul 28, 2013 - 03:34pm PT

So doing a little guidebook reading this morning, and it starts to make some sense:

The route was never finished being equipped. It was being developed as a sport route, and never had the top anchor placed. That's why it seemed like the belay was all jacked up and too far to the right, because the belay was actually the belay for the adjacent project, "Fallen From Grace" which was provisionally rated 12d and not finished at the time of the guidebook writing.

So there's your explanation for the seemingly screwed-up anchor placement, and stray bolts with 13ish climbing. Here's the relevant guidebook info-

From the 1998 Rock Climbing Boulder Canyon, Rossiter:

"Archangel. 12c. FA THom Byrne 1988, Fist pitch and anchors added by Richard Rossiter and Thom Byrne 1997. Enhanced SR.

"Climb an easy pitch with 3 bolts and belay on a ledge with a two-bolt anchor(9). Climb the awesome dihedral to where it fades into a blank wall and lower off from a two-bolt anchor (not in place at time of writing)"

-and-

"Fallen From Grace. 12d (Project). TR: Bob Horan. This route ascends the roofs and dead vertical wall just right of Archangel. Incomplete at press time."

Add the info from Rossiter's 2005 "Classic Rock Climbs Upper Dream Canyon":

"...SR with 13 QDs".

And you end up with: the route was being established as a sport route, per Rossiter's notation, that would take 13 draws to lead, and they never finished equipping it (top anchor was never placed, as he noted). People mistook the FFG anchor for this one, beacause there was supposed to be an anchor up there, and that's all there was.

Sounds to me like Weidner basically finished these guys job for them, and equipped it the way the developers...Rossiter and Byrne, intended all along, but never got around to finishing.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 28, 2013 - 03:49pm PT

No JLP, you're the ass.
I didn't condone his actions of bolting away without talking to Thom, merely thanked him for coming here.

And for your information, that was quite different than what he said on MP.

No need for any repeating, it's all there for him to read if he chooses.

Now go find some more bolters to worship, son.

After you finish learning to read.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 28, 2013 - 03:56pm PT

When will the butthurtedness end? Think of the children.

crunch

Social climber

Jul 28, 2013 - 04:25pm PT

So there's your explanation for the seemingly screwed-up anchor placement, and stray bolts with 13ish climbing.

I thought Chris said that he placed the "stray" bolts.

EDIT: Sounds like Richard Rossiter is a Person of Interest, if he climbed with Thom. Chris, did you contact Richard?

He's pretty easy to find:

http://www.boulderclimbs.com

I have his phone number and email if you need it.

Crusher

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 28, 2013 - 04:54pm PT

FYI - TFB has replied on MP.com.

It appears the FFA was a highly rehearsed pinkpoint, including a few pitons for gear.

Sick send for the 80's, I'm sure, but not by today's standards.

I'm happy to see it bolted, especially under local consensus. It gives the 15 yr olds something to do while they wait in line for China Doll.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 28, 2013 - 04:56pm PT

^^^ LOL! Realty's a bitch huh?

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 28, 2013 - 06:24pm PT

You saw and you took. You didn’t give a sh#t.

Well, Chris said he'd pull them if Thom was offended, let's see if he's a man of his word.

We don't call pitons reliable protection anymore

Of course not son. BWA HA HA HA hahahaaaa!

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 28, 2013 - 06:58pm PT

The vultures has some fresh meat (Chris) for a short time...this will blow over in a couple of weeks.

Many of my old routes that were done in the 80's have had bolted added. Doesn't bother me in the least, especially after I top-roped them before doing them as a lead.

Doing them ground up kinda levels the playing field, doing them top dowm like Thom did (?) is a little unfair to repeat ascents.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jul 28, 2013 - 07:47pm PT

Awesome.

So this guy topropes the sh#t out of it, all summer, until it's brutally wired. Places, on rappell, a mix of pins and bolts, installing manufactured/synthetic runouts. Then after 100+ rehearsals, pinkpoints it.

And thereby creates, from a limited public resource, a route that ill serves that very public. No, not every route is for every climber. But once you've abandoned the ground-up adventure approach and are rapping in and adding fixed protection, then the route needs to be safe for onsight attempts, period. You are not a hero for creating runouts whilst hanging from a rappel line after months of rehearsal, you're a selfish jerk.

Ground up dangerous runouts? Sure. Even with a death-defying route virtually nobody will repeat, at least it's a testament to some climber having going up there and survived a hairy adventure.

But these FA guys created a botch-job. Nobody has the desire to spend all summer wiring a route enough to survive the artificial runnouts, just because a guy from '88 was running some clinical level OCD.

Good on Weidner for fixing this ego-centric botch-job.

fluffy

Trad climber

Jul 28, 2013 - 08:07pm PT

so the guy climbed it in the style he wanted to. and as far as i can tell it was a bold effort that no one else the f*#k repeated. he hasn't complained about the retrobolting, at least publicly, yet to some him and his leading of this route was 'egocentric' and 'a botch job' worthy of nothing but derision and condemnation? and he's a 'selfish jerk'?

WTF ever give the guy a f*#king break

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 28, 2013 - 08:21pm PT

He has responded and definately doesnt like the rebolting. Go to the link the OP posted, that would be page 1, first paragraph to some weird site called mountainproject.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 28, 2013 - 08:34pm PT

For those who still don't get it, the route was unclimbable ground-up w/o aid gear. The pitons TB mentions he lowered off of, because he couldn't make it to the anchor he drilled on rappel, were missing. They are not in Rossiter's mid 90's guidebook, either. Nobody has freed to TB's bolted anchor - not CW, not TB.

Aid gear is great for aid climbers and curiosity pieces on ancient 5.11 and under routes. It doesn't work for modern routes people actually fall on, that may see 1000's of falls. Even if anyone gave a damn about this relic as TB climbed it, it would still need bolts to sustain today's traffic. That was obvious to everyone except a minority of morons with 10's of 1000's of posts to Supertopo.

The one and only grey area, IMO, is the quantity of bolts. Since we now know the route's history of TR'ing, 14 bolts in 115 feet sounds just about right.

fluffy

Trad climber

Jul 28, 2013 - 08:47pm PT

Ok my bad thanks Patrick, interesting read. Although I still don't get why he's catching sh#t for his route/style.

Somebody go tell Alec Sharp his methods were invalid. Be sure and spray bolts all over his routes too, they're 'unsafe'.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 29, 2013 - 03:42am PT

I think Chris and Thom should have a person-to-person dialogue and work out a solution. If Thom really wants Chris to removes his bolts then say so. If there is some sort of compromise then let them work out the details. The two protagonists are the only ones who can really resolve this situation.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 29, 2013 - 04:19am PT

^^^^^ good idea!

Seems only fair that JLP should be invited to that meeting as well seeing as he has been deeply affected here.

I also elect DMT, Bob D & goatboy to go & represent supertopo.

Consensus must be found- Before this gets ridiculous.

Johannsolo

climber

Soul Cal

Jul 29, 2013 - 09:15am PT

Looks like Bobby D and Blah each need to pony up $100.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 29, 2013 - 11:53am PT

^ ^ ^
I don't think so, take a look at
what I wrote earlier:

If Mr. Byrne shows up and plausibly claims to have freed it (and if he was anything like a good enough climber to make that a plausible claim), I will gladly make the $100 donation to his favorite 501(c)(3) or charity recipient. (With one exception--Rossiter's guide shows at least one piton; if it was done with pitons that were replaced with bolts, that seems like a public service that no one would complain about.)

and what Byrne wrote on MP:

Regarding my pins? What happened to them? I loved the LA at the top! I fell on it many times and lowered off it using the ¾’ angle below as a backup. You can see it in the pic I’ve posted and I will dig out some better pics. I can’t believe that the same frost wedging over the past 25 years that caused the formation of the “loose blocks” that you cleaned also caused those pins to fall out. It’s possible that someone else removed them, but I can’t imagine why.

Moreover, it's not exactly clear that TB ever made it to where the anchors are now--it sort of sounds like he toproped it from different anchors, but only made it to a piton he had at the top of a crack below the anchors (that isn't totally clear, and I'm basing this on a JLP comment on MP, it's really not clear what to make of this).
Nevertheless, if TB posts up saying that he'd like the $100 sent to whatever charity he chooses, I'll send a check. (TB, if you read this and want the $100 sent, please post on this site or on the comments to MP, I don't check email sent to the email associated with my account here).

Aside from the $100, seems that TB was doing a Christian Griffith light in trying to replicate something like Paris Girl (extensive toprope rehearsal followed by leading on rap bolted gear that is inadequate for almost anyone else to lead who hasn't also extensively TR'd the line). Not really a style that has stood the test of time!

JMC

climber

the land of milk and honey

Jul 29, 2013 - 12:01pm PT

Hey, Elcapinyoazz, in the guidebook description you excerpted,

"Archangel. 12c. FA THom Byrne 1988, Fist pitch and anchors added by Richard Rossiter and Thom Byrne 1997. Enhanced SR.

, does enhanced mean what it usually does? All this dick wrenching is over a chiseled route?

wbw

Trad climber

'cross the great divide

Jul 29, 2013 - 12:23pm PT

Reading Tom Byrne's account of the first ascent, I can really relate to the part about how this route is connected in time to the death of a friend. I've never done many first ascents, but one that I did in Eldo was found after much time wandering around Eldo while mourning the death of a close friend. I wasn't looking for a new route, but rather trying to come to terms with one of the most heart-breaking times in my life, in a canyon I have always revered. I found great comfort just from being in Eldo at that time, even though not much climbing was done.

When Crusher wrote his guidebook, I went to Eldo with him one evening to sell the route as an independent line from other routes. He was skeptical. I suppose I wanted my name for the route, More Nerve Than Verve, immortalized in a guidebook but more importantly I think my efforts were rooted in my desire to preserve the memories of that difficult time in my own life in some tangible way.

While we may never agree on style in climbing routes, all of you young bucks looking to immortalize your own present efforts would do well to remember that 25 years from now, you will be watching the new generation of the time changing many of the values you hold dear. That is the nature of things. I have no investment in regards to this route in Dream Canyon, but it seems to me the route could have been altered in a more respectful way than it was done by CW. There was a substantial investment of emotional energy by the first ascentionist, and this fact seems to have been ignored. There is also significant history involved, as it sounds as if the accepted name of the wall, Lost Angel, is wrapped up in this first ascent.

If history is important to us, it seems that Tom's story of his first ascent (on what was at the time a large, unexplored crag that has become popular) is far more compelling than that of a 5.14 climber "putting up" a .12c a quarter of a century later.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Jul 29, 2013 - 12:28pm PT

Well said Brad.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 29, 2013 - 12:36pm PT

There is also significant history involved, as it sounds as if the accepted name of the wall, Lost Angel, is wrapped up in this first ascent.

Lost Angel Road is the name of the road you take to get to get to the parking area for Upper Dream Canyon.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 29, 2013 - 12:39pm PT

does enhanced mean what it usually does

It means you need to bring aid climbing gear - ie, the pro is bad.

I appreciated Thom's response, but at the same time found it very self absorbed. If his feelings about the route are so strong, why let it sit basically unclimbable for 25 yrs? A usable anchor and a couple pins - at least in the topo in the second edition of a guidebook published by his friend - and this never would have happened. It all reads to me like he expected people to take that runout ~13+ face as if it were a part of the FA - but got called out on it.

wbw

Trad climber

'cross the great divide

Jul 29, 2013 - 12:55pm PT

Hey blah, I'm just citing Tom Byrne's account of his climb, and his naming of the wall. Not speculating on why.

Then, I called Richard Rossiter who had done some personal training for me, brought him up there, showed him the access to Upper Dream Canyon, added the 40’ entry pitch from the stream to the traverse ledge, told him that I had named the wall The Lost Angel, and pointed out my route, The Archangel.

I didn't find Tom's story any more self-absorbed than any that recounts naming a piece of nature according to our own whims.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 29, 2013 - 03:32pm PT

Kurt wrote: a "bold" route done in 1988 has been retro bolted, without the consent of the F.A party...
Its a bummer when i see these things happen as it seems to degrade the effort of the FA party and weaken the standards set back in the day

Pretty funny reading the above and all the crap written about this bold ascent...couldn't be further from the truth.

Top down, at least a 100 attempts on a top rope and gear placed on aid. Wow...very bold.

Blah is right on this forced run out route, nothing to be tooting your horn about this one.

fluffy

Trad climber

Jul 29, 2013 - 03:40pm PT

Pretty funny reading the above and all the crap written about this bold ascent...couldn't be further from the truth.

Top down, at least a 100 attempts on a top rope and gear placed on aid. Wow...very bold.

Blah is right on this forced run out route, nothing to be tooting your horn about this one.

Let the hate flow through you Bob

How do you place your 'gear' (bolts)??

raymond phule

climber

Jul 29, 2013 - 03:50pm PT

How do you place your 'gear' (bolts)??

I doubt he consider his sport routes bold.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 29, 2013 - 04:16pm PT

recap: Someone goes and retro bolts a route WITHOUT consulting the FA party. Then puts additional bolts in and fails to do the extension leaving said "stray bolts" in place.. Is that about accurate ?

Ron, it's not totally easy to figure out exactly what happened even if you read the stories from TB and CW--some of it just doesn't add up such as the conflicting accounts of the loose death-blocks.
But from what I can gather, your summary is about accurate IF you include the fact that the "FA" was a bizarre extensively-TR-rehearsed/rap bolted / aided / pre-placed gear ascent that may or may not have ended at an "off route," semi-random anchor. I haven't even tried to figure out what's going on with the extension, I'm still stuck on the first (hard) pitch.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 29, 2013 - 04:49pm PT

Yeah, just like Jim Erickson putting up the notoriously runout and scary "Hair City" in Eldorado by placing only two bolts, on rappel, on the first ascent in 1969.

Back before sport climbing started to take off(around 1988 or so) that was the way many people did FA's even on rappel. The idea was to use as few bolts as necessary. Not the same ethic, especially with the advent of power drills, as today.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 29, 2013 - 04:53pm PT

Everyone in the MP.com comments seemed to have no problem understanding what TB did, even before he replied.

Citing the BY in a bolting thread = mindless with nothing to add.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

SLO, Ca

Jul 29, 2013 - 05:10pm PT

The BY comes up in all bolting threads within the first 20 posts or so. Generally it's completely irrelevant to what anyone is talking about.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 29, 2013 - 05:13pm PT

On the other hand, Layton Kor rapped down to add a bolt to the crux of "The Bulge" to placate those out there a little unnerved by that original line.

I rebolted(not retrobolted!) the Bulge.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 29, 2013 - 05:16pm PT

Oh yeah, and I moved one of Jim Erickson's two original bolts on Hair City to a better location *after* consulting with Jim as to what I proposed to do and getting his OK.

cuvvy

Sport climber

arkansas

Jul 29, 2013 - 06:07pm PT

What exactly is a dog and sh#@ show? Are recently excremented dog turds placed next their canine creators and scored based on color, smell, and consistency?

It makes perfect sense if you put up a route on your property that you should be able to decide what happens with it. Most routes are put up on public lands, for everyone, no? So why shouldn't someone be able to add bolts?

On the other hand, you have to be totally lacking male genitalia to dumb down a route to your lame ability.

Schizophrenia wears me out

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 29, 2013 - 06:39pm PT

Fluffy wrote: Let the hate flow through you Bob

How do you place your 'gear' (bolts)??

Funny Fluffy...no hate, just a sense of climbing history that all this crap mean little to nothing.

I placed bolts on lead (up to 5.12 climbing) and on rappel....what is your point?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 29, 2013 - 07:50pm PT

Not sure why this is continuing after Chris' last post.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 29, 2013 - 08:31pm PT

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon

Jul 29, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
Not sure why this is continuing after Chris' last post.

Are you new in town?
This conversation never ends.
Hey Bob, we are still here waiting for a answer on your rap bolting, retro bolting history.

fluffy

Trad climber

Jul 29, 2013 - 09:32pm PT

'no hate, just a sense of climbing history that all this crap mean little to nothing.'

sure seems to mean a lot to you based on how much time and emotion you have wrapped up in it

just weird how an accomplished climber such as yourself would get so caught up in something that really doesn't involve him at all...even to the point of name calling and denigrating a fellow climber whose only 'crime' was to rehearse the moves on his route and pre-place protection.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 29, 2013 - 11:23pm PT

It isn't a style, like Lycra, its bringing the route up to standard for that area... a sport area. I could see all the old timer whining if this was Eldorado, but the other routes here are bolted completely, not what sounds to be a 25 year abandoned rap bolted project.

ChrisWeidner

climber

Boulder, CO

Jul 30, 2013 - 02:16am PT

I've enjoyed a friendly dialogue with Thom Byrne. He has asked me to remove 5 of the 8 protection bolts I placed on Archangel and to keep my new two-bolt anchor intact. I will do this as soon as I can, which will be at the end of August (I'm going out of town Wednesday morning).

Admittedly, my logic was flawed and premature, but I approached Archangel with an honest belief that it had never been free climbed previously.

I did not intend to retro-bolt an existing trad route.

I had several reasons that I thought were solid for believing that it had not been climbed, but I stand corrected.

There are still questions surfacing regarding what I called "stray bolts." Here's what I know:
Above Archangel's anchor (at the end of the 12c climbing) were two original bolts, out of reach and heading right to what seemed to be the anchor of the unfinished project Fallen From Grace. I don't know who placed these bolts but they seemed to serve no purpose for either Archangel or any other possible free climb.

Additionally, I placed two bolts above Archangel's anchor, in line with a potential but extremely difficult free route, that lead to a two-bolt anchor which I placed at the end of the features. When I first rapped down it appeared that the climbing wouldn't be too hard so I placed the anchor and the two bolts. Turns out it's WAY harder than it appeared and I couldn't do the moves. I considered removing my two bolts and the anchor immediately but have, for now, left them as an open project. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm happy to remove them.

The "stray bolts" are the two mystery (original) bolts and my two bolts and anchor. I'll gladly remove some or all of them.

After I remove the bolts that Thom has kindly requested be removed, Archangel will once again be a serious lead, though not nearly the X-rated pitch it was when he sent it. Be especially careful above the ledge 40 feet up (5.9 to there and the first anchor). It will be very serious and insecure 5.10+ with ledge fall potential. This is the only spot where I placed two bolts close together, in an attempt to avoid a ledge fall.

I deeply appreciate Thom's kindness and his willingness to work with me on this. His 1988 send of Archangel surely ranks among the boldest ascents in the Boulder area at the time and it has so far flown completely under the radar. This ascent places Thom among the big boys of the era and he deserves much notoriety and mad respect.

Evel

Trad climber

Nedsterdam CO

Jul 30, 2013 - 02:55am PT

Right on! After all of the BS that's gone on here it's good to see the actual players step up and work things out. Such a refreshing break from all the crap of late.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 30, 2013 - 09:55am PT

Funny how things work out. Nice to see the FA getting the respect his work deserves. Cool to see an honest error being respectfully corrected. Good stuff all around. This is the right way to take care of the thing.

Grats to all

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 30, 2013 - 10:14am PT

Agreed. It sounds like both parties were mature.

A small victory against the onslaught of bolts.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 30, 2013 - 11:21am PT

Time for a group hug and a round of kumbaya

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 30, 2013 - 11:28am PT

This ascent places Thom among the big boys of the era and he deserves much notoriety and mad respect.

Why is Thom a "big boy"--because he rapped down and placed fixed gear that he thought was appropriate to protect his (extensively top-roped) ascent, but then complains when someone else did the same thing?
Answer this question: what gear did he place for his ascent, in addition to the bolts and pins (and how many pins)? Did it include aid gear (and/or hammered nuts)? This route was done at about the same time as the classic Boulder Canyon route "Hot Flyer," where the first ascentionist placed fixed copperheads to protect his ascent (someone nearly died trying to repeat the route when a fixed head blew--all of this account is from http://www.mountainproject.com/v/hot-flyer/105754036);. The Hot Flyer FA'er was at least reasonable enough to agree that "establishing" routes with rap placed junk was probably not a style that was going to stand the test of time, and agreed to the route's retrobolting. Perhaps he's the "big boy."

Somehow in Thom's relatively long account of the climb (including blind-folded belayers, name-dropping, etc.), he seems to have avoided shedding much light on what gear was placed, other than noting that gear was placed on rappel.

Will Thom (and/or Chris) be butt hurt when future would-be climbers rap down and place whatever gear they'd like to protect their ascent, presumably including pitons (and perhaps other fixed gear)? Should they remove it when they're finished?

Chris--did you pull any pitons, and are you going to replace them?

Hope both Chris and Thom feel like real "big boys" when some kid tries to repeat the route thinking that it has been climbed like 99.9% of routes are (without aid gear placed on rappel, and then removed) and breaks his legs or worse. I'd suggest removing all bolts and anchors--otherwise you've got a textbook example of an "attractive nuisance" out there.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 30, 2013 - 11:39am PT

If there is gear in this climb that you can actually fall on through the hard sections, if the runouts are indeed 2 full number grades below the expected hard climbing, then most climbers in this area aren't going to care about the difference between clipping a draw or sticking in a piece of gear. Pretty 101. Great. Can't wait to get on this route. What you describe sounds possibly on par with other well traveled trad classics in the area such as Evictor, Scary Canary and about a dozen other "scary" mid 12 trad routes in Eldo you have to wait in line for these days. Wow, I'm a rad trad climber, look at my RP's and Aliens. Woo hoo. Oh wait, maybe could you please point me to something that's actually hard?

HOWEVER - if this route has its boldness artificially manufactured per the detailed instructions of someone 100's of miles away and 25 years after TRing the Holy Living Sh#t out of it, pre-placing aid gear, then pinkpointing it - expecting others to follow that as if preserves some fantasy of ground up trad ethic (wtf??!!) - even if it means a better, more skilled, more bold climber could very well end up in the hospital while attempting it as such - I would say grow a spine, Chris, and do what's right - what active and local climbers originally and obviously thought was right - what you know is right - and leave the f'ing bolts in. I find such routes to be the ultimate expression of selfishness and cowardice.

Hoping for the former here.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:04pm PT

It should be clear at this point that climbing in 80s means boosting the ego of the developer, not opening the route for people. And I'm not simply referring to bolts. Rap placed pins then headpointing 3/4s of the route and demanding it stay that way for eternity is really an amazing demonstration of selfishness.

If trads see this as a banner for their craft, it is a really sad example.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:10pm PT

Strawman: of course sport climbing rap bolts. Trad ethics say meet the rock on its own terms, drill on lead, and look at the size of deez nuts!

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:11pm PT

Not to add fuel to the fire but calling this a bold trad route is a bunch of bull. The route use sport climbing tactics and was beaten into submission on a top rope, gear was pre-placed and then who know how many pins were removed after the ascent?

Comparing this to the bold routes done in the 70's and 80's from the ground up is bull and does a disservice to those who did them.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:15pm PT

I did not intend to retro-bolt an existing trad route.

Kind of a non-sequitur, because there's nothing "trad" about this a rap-bolted/rap-pinned, TR-rehearsed, pink-point. Nothing.

Blahblah and JLP are spot-on.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:16pm PT

Headpointing 3/4s of the route and demanding it stay that is really pretty amazing.

I don't think Thom even "headpointed" the route, although people can argue about the semantics of climbing jargon.
I think "headpointing" refers to leading (including "pinkpointing" after extensive TR) traditional routes, that is, routes established ground up. Archangel was not a traditional route by any definition I've ever heard, not even close.

Edit--I missed a couple of the above posts when I wrote this, so my post is redundant. I think the people who are actually paying attention to specifically what happened here instead of spouting general platitudes are pretty much on the same page.

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:20pm PT

Good to hear you are going to work things out, and I have confidence it will work out well.

I think that Chris is showing some serious spine, and doing what's right, by realizing that he made a mistake and doing the best he can to fix the situation. I hope that this route turns out to be a fun and memorable climb that can be led with some degree of safety. I look forward to trying it.

It's really odd to hear climbers slander the style that Thom climbed this. At the time this was put up, many climbers were just trying to put up routes in as good of a style as they could, and that meant with as few bolts as possible. For some routes it was fine, and others maybe not. He was doing the best as he could at the time, and put some serious time into this route. In reading his MP comments it sounds like it was very important to him, and he poured some serious heart and soul into this route.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:29pm PT

It's really odd to hear climbers slander the style that Thom climbed this.

I really don't think anyone is slandering his style, just his fantasy of boldness and accomplishment, especially relative to his peers of the time. I see the comments more as highlighting reality.

The worst - leaving the anchor ~13+ away from where he lowered off is a JOKE, and sounds like it's the primary reason the bolts went in.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:33pm PT

There were many 5.12's established in the late 70's and early 80's from the ground up placing gear as you go. Thom ascent used sport climbing tactics and somewhat devious in the sense that no one knew how the route was done till now.

If he really wanted to leave a legacy he would have done the route in better style and not leave as a r/x route for some poor soul to come along and die trying to repeat in good style.

Funny that Thom got all the benefits of sport climbing style ascent but left the route as a trad route for some else to repeat. Total bull in my book.

Rhodo-Router

Gym climber

sawatch choss

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:52pm PT

Let's face it folks, the TR/rap-nailed but still runout/ruthless wiring/eventual headpoint thing has simply not caught on, for somewhat valid reasons. Runouts manufactured from above violate two basic and somewhat opposing principles: the traditional, ground-up one of meeting the rock on it's own terms and rising to the challenges presented; and the sport-climbing principle that routes which are first approached from the safety of a toprope should present no more than trivial dangers when climbed from the ground. Both approaches give us climbs which can satisfy, in very different ways.

As it stood, Archangel was neither. Poorly protected head point-style climbs with sparse fixed protection reflect the confusion and experimentation of the era, and as such constitute legitimate 'museum pieces', but I am not convinced that this bastard child of the early sport/trad age needs to remain ever thus. People learn. The sport evolves. While I respect the great effort applied and emotional connection that TB has to this route, I question whether this special connection is likely to be duplicated by anyone other than the first ascentionist.

If the climb is to have fixed pro, placed from above, the gear should be bomber, and appear with reasonable frequency. Otherwise it should remain a toprope or sketchy lead. The middle ground satisfies almost no one, is logically incoherent, and ensures that the route is unlikely to be appreciated in any style.

Yes, CW should have gotten in touch with TB- obviously it wasn't that difficult to do so. Perhaps as well, TB might gracefully acknowledge that he has wrung as much as he ever will from this chunk of stone, albeit in a style arising from unique circumstances which are unlikely to be repeated (unclimbed line, undiscovered wall, etc.) , and request that either the route be restored to a more-or-less pristine condition or allow it to be climbed in a manner reflecting standards that history has settled upon as making some kind of sense. Yes, he climbed it first. Yes, we have a tradition of respecting the FAist's vision. But visions can change- numerous examples exist. And the 1980's vision comes off as a bit confused in this instance.

fluffy

Trad climber

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:52pm PT

whatever you think of the style it was done in, he still had to climb the run outs, right?

as far as being concerned with his 'legacy' why don't we just stay concerned with our own without passing judgement on someone who may or may not be concerned with how future generations of climbers would view his route? It might be your most important consideration but why would that be true for everyone? climbing new routes, and the motivation for doing so, is deeply personal...some aren't looking to create gyms for the masses.

I'm glad the two concerned parties have worked it out. can't help but wonder how this might have gone if permission had been sought rather than forgiveness,

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 30, 2013 - 12:57pm PT

he still had to climb the run outs, right?

A key component of a trad run-out is facing the unknown. He did not do this. His run-outs were rehearsed and manufactured.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:00pm PT

His run-outs were rehearsed and manufactured.

So are my dumps.

Dude did what he did.. said what he did. Did not claim it was the B-Y.

Good enough for me.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:01pm PT

"whatever you think of the style it was done in, he still had to climb the run outs, right?"

Runouts aren't so runout after a 100 top rope ascents.

Rhodo-Router

Gym climber

sawatch choss

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:02pm PT

Yeah. Homey should've called first and presented his case. Then the rest of us could go back to our cubicles and continue reading about royal babies or whatever, and a lot of this hot air could've been avoided. And maybe they would have worked out a reasonable deal. Now it's gonna have three rap bolts instead of two? just what the world needs, another Paris Girl.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:03pm PT

Anyone ask before now? Should he have written it up in the AAC 25 years ago?

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:14pm PT

And we have no idea what runouts he actually he did--remember he placed as much aid gear (at least pitons, perhaps other aid gear) on rappel as he felt like, in addition to the rap bolts he placed where presumably he couldn't get in a pin or anything else.
It's possible that he ran it out big time on easier ground and only put in bolts to protect the "hard" climbing, but it's just as possible he loaded the climb up with pitons and heads the whole way, except for where he couldn't and that's where he put in bolts.

Rossiter, who was clearly in cahoots with TB, didn't give the climb an "s" rating or indicate any other danger, but instead rather cryptically referred to the "enhanced SR."
Certainly possible that TB did some big runouts (after his 100 TRs), but I wouldn't even concede that point until we know more about the gear he placed on rappel.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:21pm PT

Is this the style known as the Lycra-point?

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:22pm PT

said what he did.

No he didn't. He didn't leave anything anyone could repeat - and the route was fatally dangerous to boot. For nothing. He revealed a lie 25 years later and 2 weeks too late. Nobody has freed the pitch as it was left.

Yes Chris should have contacted him. However, that matter is yesterday's news and has been amended, please stay with the discussion here. Today's news: The bolts should stay regardless of TB's opinion on the matter. Chris saw the obvious and made the correct call on the route.

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:30pm PT

Total bull in my book.

Well Bob, that's like, you're opinion, man. A lot of people don't like the way you grid bolt things, and I'll tell you the same thing you and other bolters have told me: If you don't like it, go climb somewhere else.

In reading his comments I think he loved the routes and did it in the best syle he could do it in. Maybe it was bold for him. It does sound to me like is was somwhat incomplete (regarding the position of the anchor).

FFA of Evictor was done with gear in place. It set the stage for people to do it in better style.

FA of Grand Inquisitor was done placing the first bolt from a ladder, and although a little scary, it's a good routes.

FA of Hot Flyer was done by rap placing a bolt, copperheads and other fixed sketch gear, then retrolted. And it's probably a better route with the bolts.

Many of Christian Griffith's "bold" bolt routes were done on rappel or previously inspected, as was Doub Griffith (Eldo).

I'm not saying this was or would be the best route in the world, but I'm glad Chris can set his Ego aside and work with Thom to figure out a (hopefully) good solution.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:33pm PT

Frank...what did I grid bolt? In fact a lot of the older routes I did in the 80's have had bolts added to them..No issues from me.

Frank (by the way who are you?)...by listing those routes are you trying to make a case for rebolting and that the style they done in a mistake? Sure sound like to me.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:45pm PT

Sounds like the guy who brought "slander" into this thread (which I hadn't really seen, just commentary on what happened) is doing a little slandering of his own?

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

SLO, Ca

Jul 30, 2013 - 01:45pm PT

Pre-inspected, rehearsed and rap-protected routes with run outs are bullsh#t. It's just a stupid style under any set of climbing "rules" and those climbs should be stripped or retro bolted regardless of what the "FA" party thinks.

During the mid to late 80s some funky stuff went down as sport tactics became commonplace. No doubt the resistance at the time led to some weird routes and strategies. That doesn't mean the current and future generations should live with those mistakes.

fluffy

Trad climber

Jul 30, 2013 - 02:00pm PT

If it was put up as a trad route, then subsequent ascents would be obligated to respect it as such. It wasn't.

Why expect subsequent ascents to live up to a standard the FA didn't follow?

so 'trad' routes are the only routes that should require permission from the FA in order to add bolts?

edit: beat me to it Ron. great minds.... ;-)

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 30, 2013 - 02:10pm PT

It is well established that he should have sought permission from the FA, and Chris has said so multiple times. What is in question is the dubious style it was done in and whether it should stay that way.

But in the end it sounds like murky tradition wins and bolts will be chopped back to some hybrid style. Sort of. Hurrah. Proud trad moment

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 30, 2013 - 02:22pm PT

Here's an interesting story and a great video of a climb where the bolts were removed and then done on trad gear with huge runouts!:

http://www.climbing.com/news/tommy-caldwell-repeats-the-path-5-14-r/

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 30, 2013 - 02:29pm PT

Fluffy wrote: so 'trad' routes are the only routes that should require permission from the FA in order to add bolts?

edit: beat me to it Ron. great minds.... ;-)

Like all those aid routes in the Valley where they got permission to add bolts/beaks/holes/pins.

Great minds alright.

fluffy

Trad climber

Colorado

Jul 30, 2013 - 03:18pm PT

so now we're using adding hardware to aid routes in the valley for justification of retrobolting?

lol

i might not have the greatest mind but at least i can follow some semblance of logic

this business of thom expecting other climbers to follow a standard he himself didn't adhere to, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume its buried upthread or over on MP but I didn't see it.

this discussion is now pointless and my dumb ass has overstayed my welcome. no one is going to change their minds and now facts have been superseded by bias, interpretations, emotions and opinions.

deep down we all know the way this went down was wrong and hopefully something was learned.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 30, 2013 - 05:22pm PT

I've enjoyed a friendly dialogue with Thom Byrne. He has asked me to remove 5 of the 8 protection bolts I placed on Archangel and to keep my new two-bolt anchor intact.

Wow. This is pretty darn amazing, in every aspect.

Looks like y'all have some time to get on the new sport route before it reverts to its 'trad' status!

Chris, you've proven to be open with your approach. Still stand up in my book.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 30, 2013 - 06:04pm PT

Doink projects permadrawed 13c now with duct taped kneepads.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Jul 30, 2013 - 10:04pm PT

All in all this has been an interesting thread to follow. It certainly got the ol' passion pump jumpin' for some folks. So at this stage I should probably keep my thoughts to myself. But when did that ever stop me before?

In the "real" world there is no hard and fast Law or Rule that unequivocally states a FA team owns the route from then on. Establishing a new route does not equate to ownership of the medium only the message. It would be more accurate to state that most of us climb by a code. A code of conduct developed within the mutually accepted ethics of our time. A code by which we measure our own successes and failures. Now it isn't surprising that ethics tweek and evolve with each new generation of climbers in fact it is to be expected. Routes change over time with advancements in gear and technique. New protection possibilities have made many fixed pins redundant and unnecessary. And I think that is a good thing.
Contacting the FA team and conferring is the right and decent thing to do but it is only really done because the ethic of our time says it ought to be done.

A first ascent is an expression of human ability, creativity and will. It is more akin to producing a piece of art. It is in my mind Performance Art. No one gets to buy the art they only get to try and experience it for them selves. You can buy, own and do what ever you want to a piece of art. But as you would not likely paint alterations to an Artist"s canvas you probably shouldn't alter an established route. The code I grew up with stated that you should always do a route in at least as good of a style as it's best ascent. Thus if an aid route went free you didn't go and aid it for example. It was a matter of respect for those before and a challenge to yourself. I for one always hope that much of the great achievements of the past will continue to be honored amid the Sturm und Drang of the each new generations growing pains.

Oh well that's my 29 & 1/2 cents worth. I'll crawl back in the politurd threads where I belong.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jul 30, 2013 - 10:22pm PT

Phil, this:

"The code I grew up with stated that you should always do a route in at least as good of a style as it's best ascent."

is either poorly worded, or bullsh#t. Unless you free soloed a hefty portion of the routes you've ever climbed, then you never lived up to this "code".

Bachar probably soloed 90% of the stuff I've ever done in JT, alot of it when I was in diapers. So by this dumbass "code" I should have never climbed those at all since I couldn't solo them and Bachar already had.

And how does that work for a beginner?

"Sorry pal, this was soloed in 1937, no rope for you"
"But I've never done this climbing stuff before"
"Toughen up buttercup, that's THE CODE"
"What if I fall?
"You'll die while respecting THE CODE"
"Can't I use a rope? Other people use ropes!"
"That is not THE CODE!"

Your code is a joke.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 30, 2013 - 10:30pm PT

You never hear skiers or kayakers argue about first descents.
I wonder why?

Climbers are territorial and like to attach their name to a piece of rock because it signifies their place in an unchanging environment in a constantly changing world.

All in all Boulder Canyon is haunted by many ascents of pedestrian climbs by dozens of folks that once held a "leave no trace let's top rope it", philosophy. Eventually those climbs were bolted by others who had no clue they were already climbed and claimed as FA's just to get their name on Mountain Project. It's the nature of the game, overall no big deal since those climbs are not all that and a bag of chips.

It's unfortunate our love for this game has degraded into who did what first and how we can profit and push our agendas in this game. I stopped respecting the blowhards, the soloists, and the professionals a long time ago in Boulder and other well tread areas since it stopped being about inspiring others and just making a buck.

Give me something new in Africa or South America or some other remote untrodden destination or even Rgolds recent micro TR on movement and then we can begin inspiring each other again.

thread drift/

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 30, 2013 - 10:50pm PT

The code I grew up with stated that you should always do a route in at least as good of a style as it's best ascent.

Replace the word "best" in the above statement with the word 'first' and you might be on to something.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Jul 30, 2013 - 11:13pm PT

I stand by what I said. You don't go do the Naked Edge in it's pins and aid FA style do you?
We always endeavored to eliminate aid moves on the walls not add to them.

KP Ariza

climber

SCC

Jul 30, 2013 - 11:29pm PT

There were no aid moves on Archangel after Thom freed it

Rick A

climber

Boulder, Colorado

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:00am PT

Article in then Boulder Daily Camera this morning by Chris Weidner.

http://www.dailycamera.com/recreation-columnists/ci_23762980/confessions-climbing-criminal-when-saintly-intent-turns-sinful

My take on these recent fixed anchor and climbing style controversies—Archangel, Cerro Torre, etc-- is that it reinforces that the climbing world is getting smaller and smaller. Like it or not we are a loose, worldwide community, now firmly bound together by the internet. Actions taken even on obscure climbs have a larger impact on that community than one can imagine. I have never met Chris, but have enjoyed his articles in the local paper. The article today makes clear that Chris, a top climber, excellent writer, and a very thoughtful guy, had no idea that there would be any controversy in retrobolting this route.

I learned a little about this topic from my thread last year entitled, “ Super Chicken on Medlicott, add bolts to third pitch?”

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1617265/Super-Chicken-on-Medlicott-add-bolts-to-third-pitch

The subject, whether to add a couple of bolts to an insignificant climb in TM to make it safer for the average climber, received hundreds of posts.

After a long discussion on ST both pro and con, it seemed to me that the wiser course was to not change the route at all. My main reason for posting that thread was to consult the TM community before taking unilateral action, even on a route I "owned" as a result of being on the first ascent.

Before starting the Archangel project, if Chris had taken a few minutes to post the question: “Add bolts to Archangel in Boulder Canyon? “on MP and ST, a lot of gnashing of teeth and rending of garments could have been avoided.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:11am PT

Or, just go bolt it and don't tell anyone. Pre- posting for approval on a sh#t show thread like this would guarantee routes would never be maintained. Bolts are getting chopped either way.

Honestly, the extreme criticism of Chris even after multiple sincere apologies by prominent members of the vanguard climbing community is disheartening. The lesson seems to be respect the rock by some nebulous set of ever-changing rules, but beat your fellow climbers when they are down. Now the readership of Chris's column is in on this dysfunctional family.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:19am PT

Patrick the readers of Chris's excellent collumn ARE climbers and every bit as dysfunctional as the rest of us here.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:21am PT

Post comment from the column:

'You guys remind me of surfers about 20 years ago. A bunch of self righteous d-bags arguing over idiotic things like the above and then one day some fat guy goes out and does it and the sport is totally demystified'

Great PR for the climbing community. Well done tradsters. You won.

FrankZappa

Trad climber

Hankster's crew

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:39am PT

I stand by what I said. You don't go do the Naked Edge in it's pins and aid FA style do you?

Yo, Philo. True, but folks routinely aid the Nose, Moonlight Butress, Half Dome, etc. Maybe not with pins, but those routes are free...I see people aiding Country Club crack all the time.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:54am PT

FrankZappa all too true. That is why I said there are no hard set rules governing our actions only acceptance (or not) of the general consensus. And I spoke for myself and what was once paramount to me personally regarding style. My time was the 70s. A time of clean, bold and chalkless climbing.
Those stylistic approaches were a product of that times ethics. Times change. Too many climbers of today are only concerned with ticking a list of "reputation" climbs and not on the style of their ascent. Thus you have scads of folks using all manner of cheats and claiming a bold ascent for bragging rights. The "do it as well or do it better" thinking was important in my time because I wanted to be the best I could be given the context of my time. So those people who are having a grand time big walling the Nose with direct aid and all are not in the vanguard of climbing's evolution. But I would bet more and more of those folks are trying to do it clean now. People still practice Ironmongery but fortunately the ethic of clean climbing redirected the bulk of the climbing community towards less destructive practices.

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Jul 31, 2013 - 11:15am PT

That is an assumption that has been made countless times before.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 31, 2013 - 11:17am PT

So a route a person (Thom) top roped over a hundred times, put bolts and who know how many pins on rappel and you old trad climbers are praising his ascent and you verbally abuse Chris for adding bolts and cleaning it up.

First thing that comes to my mind is hypocrites.

And then there is Eric who top ropes routes, claims a FA and calls them "trad" and then get piss when someone does "his" routes with bolts.

Eric...trad climbing start from the ground and then goes up...sport climbing starts from the top...just like your top roping. Very bold trad climbing on your part.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 11:43am PT

So after beating the guy to pulp while he is down, now we are patronizing? This just keeps getting better.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 31, 2013 - 11:46am PT

So funny coming from the guy who wrote this and started the name calling...

"I think someone should return it to the standard it was set in..

**Some nutless wunder decides "IF it was actually done>?" Like the BY is just a myth???

Piss poor performance all the way around... Someone send the retro bolter a bottle of calcium pills sos he can develop a spine..."**

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 31, 2013 - 11:53am PT

If you say so Ron..."I think someone should return it to the standard it was set in..

**Some nutless wunder decides "IF it was actually done>?" Like the BY is just a myth???

Piss poor performance all the way around... Someone send the retro bolter a bottle of calcium pills sos he can develop a spine...**

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 11:54am PT

Or you could apologize, but you and the rest of the tradsters including Mr. Long are above this.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 31, 2013 - 11:57am PT

Ron = 21822 posts full of nothing. Others in this forum could do us all a service by ignoring them.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 31, 2013 - 12:01pm PT

Ron wrote: YOU might take an example from CW...

So funny.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 12:03pm PT

It is isn't about the route, that is a piece of stupid rock. It is about a guy like Chris who is clearly trying to do the right thing getting called a pussy even after he apologizes profusely on the interwebz.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 12:11pm PT

So you said it was good he apoligized, but can't do it yourself for calling him a pussy before you knew the facts. Well, John Long is the king and his posts were way more harsh, so I suppose if he is above reproach the rest you interweb tough guys are too.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 12:19pm PT

Sorry, the Jedi mind trick isn't working.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 31, 2013 - 12:23pm PT

Ron wrote: I have purged this from my system.

Go back to the toilet...you didn't do a very good job of it.

wbw

Trad climber

'cross the great divide

Jul 31, 2013 - 01:02pm PT

Some comments have been made about the risk to others trying to repeat the route without the added bolts. I find that point to be rather weak. Isn't one of the primary values of ALL styles of climbing the assumption of risk, and its attendant consequences. If a person steps up to try such an ascent, and blows it and gets hurt, I don't see that as being the responsibility of the first ascentionist. That kind of attitude is harmful to the freedom we have as climbers to take the risks that we do.

You can debate the fine points of style infinitely, as this thread and countless others show. The real issue here is respect for the other guy. I think CW recognizes that and his offer to remove the bolts that he has added shows that he can disagree with TB's climb, but still show respect for TB's efforts.
Maybe there is something to be learned in that.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 31, 2013 - 01:26pm PT

If a person steps up to try such an ascent...

This hasn't happened yet. That's the whole god damn point.

A ground up ascent has, however, happened while clipping CW's bolts.

Therefore, following tradition, the guy who actually leads the thing W/O rehearsing it from a TR, W/O clipping the extra bolts - he/she should be the one to decide if the bolts stay or go. This person is not TB, and not CW. They both used a TR to preview the route.

If using a TR to preview the route before placing aid gear is in fact the chosen ethic going forward for this climb, then this [f*#king joke of a..] style needs to be made crystal clear on MP.com and/or any guidebook for those considering the route. Anything less continues the fraud.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jul 31, 2013 - 01:29pm PT

my reply to Chris' article:

Hey Chris. Thanks for your honest reply, I appreciate that you want to have a conversation with your community. That shows maturity and respect, good things.

However, the peice you wrote started off lambasting those detractors for calling you out, then ends with your admittance that you screwed up. It reads like one of those apologies you hear all the time "I'm sorry your feelings got hurt."

In the end, it REALLY isn't a big deal - it's a lone route that wasn't looked at often, and likely won't be climbed too often.

Keep this in mind - nobody reads Supertopo. Nobody cares. saying "In a matter of a few days I'd become a national paragon of insolence, brashness, selfishness and everything else that's wrong with climbers today. " sounds like you are trying to be the victim. You put some work into a route without asking a first ascentionist, got called out, life goes on.

Anyway, peace be with you good sir.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

Jul 31, 2013 - 01:37pm PT

GDavis,

stop trying to bring closure to this thread. It hasn't even reached 500 posts yet. Just wait when it gets a political slant:-)

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 02:06pm PT

democrats, but they climb harder grades.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 31, 2013 - 02:11pm PT

Republicans tend to be aid climbers.
Always needing outside assistance to move forward.

blahblah

Gym climber

Boulder

Jul 31, 2013 - 02:16pm PT

CW's Daily Camera column seems to be par for the course for the guy--he obviously read the ST and MP comments, but he misrepresents them to make it seem like active climbers are universally opposed to his adding bolts (his adding an actual anchor to the climb, and the fact that it's unclear if Thom ever climbed above the last pin that he repeatedly lowered off of to his strangely off-to-the-side anchor, is conveniently ignored).

The ST thread speaks for itself; it's clear lots of old farts (and some young farts) who may or may not be active climbers got their panties in a bunch, mostly on general principle and they carefully avoid considering the specific, whacky issues raised by Thom's "ascent." But most ST commentators who are actively climbing (of any age) seem to be in favor of turning Archangel into a "normal" climb, rather than allowing it to linger as a hybrid-rap-bolted-pinned-whatever-elsed-TR-rehearsed monstrosity that no one has climbed in 25 years, and will now exist in a very tenuous state as no one really knows what aid gear can/should be placed on subsequent ascents. At least some people took the time to carefully explain why Thom's style of ascent is "incoherent."

Even if you don't agree with my assessment of what "most" of ST thinks, CW's characterization of the ST thread is highly misleading--the added bolts got a lot of support from experienced, strong, active climbers.

I guess CW thinks it's fun and good material for his column to paint himself as the "bad boy" who's now reformed and back in the climbing community's good graces, and gee isn't this an interesting story that's all worked out so well now.

It's similar to his comments about how he tried to research whether Archangel had in fact been climbed--he showed first-class namedropping skills (just as in his DC column) in describing his "research," but inexplicably didn't try to contact Thom or Richard Rossiter. Nothing he's said is actually false (as far as I know), but anyone who just reads what CW writes would have a seriously warped view of what actually happened.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 31, 2013 - 02:59pm PT

I don't think there is anything wrong with being passionate about something you enjoy.

Panty bunching, maybe, but I would gladly eat Lockers daughters panties anyday, despite her having a little doggie tail poking up.

Call me panty muncher.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Jul 31, 2013 - 03:09pm PT

Nom, nom, nom.
Taste like oysters.

Lloyd Campbell

Social climber

St. Cloud, MN

Jul 31, 2013 - 03:22pm PT

http://www.dailycamera.com/recreation-columnists/ci_23762980/confessions-climbing-criminal-when-saintly-intent-turns-sinful

philo

Trad climber

Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Jul 31, 2013 - 03:25pm PT

Locker, that's a terrible selfie.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 31, 2013 - 03:29pm PT

I'm reading this thread, hoping to listen and learn. It's not my intent to beat the horse any longer, but it's difficult to stay silent when folks write stuff like this:

First, there's a big difference between retrobolting and rebolting. Perhaps this distinction is lost to a younger generation?

As for respecting the rock... No, that is not a nebulous ever-changing rule. It's pretty easy to grasp, and should be easy to follow as well. Place as few bolts as possible--there, not a nebulous rule, and it's been the meme of route activists for generations.

Just because a climb doesn't get repeated for a decade or two doesn't mean that it needs to be made available to the masses. Perhaps if the FA of Archangel were better known, others would have tried to headpoint the test piece, or perhaps not. That said, the traffic on a route is not an indicator of the quality, or usefulness, of the route.

The rational that some people give to have all routes turned into sport routes does sometimes astonish me.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 31, 2013 - 03:55pm PT

K-man wrote: The rational that some people give to have all routes turned into sport routes does sometimes astonish me.

Problem with this route is that he (Thom) used sport climbing tactics without the benefits of leaving the fixed gear in place for others. It still isn't clear how many pins were used on the ascent and where the route actually stopped/ended.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Jul 31, 2013 - 05:04pm PT

But most ST commentators who are actively climbing (of any age) seem to be in favor of turning Archangel into a "normal" climb,

That's a big stretch. You actually don't have much idea about who's actively climbing or not.

And now "normal" climbs are bolted up gym jobs?

steve s

Trad climber

eldo

Jul 31, 2013 - 05:27pm PT

Once again I would like to remind folks of the fact that Mission and myself did step up to the plate and attempt to lead this ground up ,on gear ,circa 26 years ago using the one piton that I remember was in place and the one bolt. We reached a high point of about 25 ft. From the belay (about at the roof or just above it) and retreated because of lack of adequate climbing skills (weak)and protection. I am not trying to say anything except that we got to that point on the gear we had at the time and some good old fashioned pulling down. Back then climbers were more willing to trust pitons and also knew that pitons were reliable protection and have been used on many first "free" ascents and were often placed while on lead and in free climbing mode. We did not even consider top roping it preferring the thrill of launching into the unknown. Back then most climbers accepted the risks of climbing and that the minute you left the ground you were on your own and that nobody forced you to leave the ground.
I would also like to ask if its true that in recent times the current tactics for hard trad climbing involves extensive top rope rehearsal and checking out the gear placements extensively also prior to sending a hard sketchy lead? I realize that the gear is not left in place before the lead but that the knowledge of each placement is wired. That is obviously the difference in Thom B's lead of Archangel that the gear was left in place. Also instead of calling it top roping the trend is to call it " head pointing" which sounds much cooler but is the same thing in the end.
I am only posting here to add some history about the climb and an other opinion , I really do not care that Archangel got bolted and I am glad that Thom and Chris are working out . Enough of this for me ,I am going climbing. Peace and Martinis , Steve Sangdahl from an expensive shack,on a dirt road, in Eldo.

P.s.Yes , Mission and I failed but we had a great time trying to climb it.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jul 31, 2013 - 05:30pm PT

Top roped, rap placed bolts creating artificial run outs are not normal anymore.

I propose this style and other hybrid 80s variations thereof be called the Lycra-point™.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 31, 2013 - 08:06pm PT

Ron wrote: I have purged this from my system.

But like a moth to a flame he continues to post, and post...

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Jul 31, 2013 - 09:20pm PT

The thread just hit #5.11. . .only one more to go!

Kalimon

Social climber

Ridgway, CO

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:28pm PT

512 posts for some retro-bolted choss heap . . . WTF?

Glad it's the kid's though, the kid's are alright.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Jul 31, 2013 - 10:56pm PT

Can't wait for the movie. Will Chris W play himself? Who will play Thom?

I'm thinking Justin timber lake for Chris & Christopher walken for Thom. Can't wait!

J Q

Social climber

Boulder, Co

Aug 1, 2013 - 06:46pm PT

Rap bolted run-outs are the f-in future! Where can I get a ticket?

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 1, 2013 - 07:46pm PT

Chim-Chim

climber

Jul 31, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Been to Shelf road... not impressed. Obviously perfectly protectable lines at least in part ... butchered.

Shelf Road is pretty much all rap bolted routes, bolts in bad placements, natural protection wasn't even considered since it was a sport climbing area. I remember watching the drillers go at it, they would just rap bolt line after line, dozens in a day without even climbing the route afterward just so they can name it and come back and try to climb it later.

There are good routes there, just few and far between, throw in the hot springs and good mexican food nearby and it makes a good winter place to climb. Although it was better before the pay campground went in.

Prod

Trad climber

Aug 1, 2013 - 08:16pm PT

Haha, that seems to be a bit of an exaggeration to me, but I have not been there since 2001.

Cheers,

Prod.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 1, 2013 - 08:54pm PT

This was around '94 Prod, not everybody was doing it, mostly a few guys were the main perpetrators but I saw them drill 12 routes while we just did two established lines. This was pretty consistant every weekend I was down there, Never saw them climb, just drill.

Most climbers just rap bolted then climbed the routes but these guys were on a mission.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 1, 2013 - 09:15pm PT

Eric wrote: This was around '94 Prod, not everybody was doing it, mostly a few guys were the main perpetrators but I saw them drill 12 routes while we just did two established lines. This was pretty consistant every weekend I was down there, Never saw them climb, just drill.

Who..you make these crazy statements.

Who was doing it? What routes?

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 1, 2013 - 09:17pm PT

Hey Bob, I knew you would take that bait.
Damit Prod I thought you might scare him away.

Now Bob tell us all about the routes done there ground up?
Tell us about all those bold climbs on lead placing bolts by hand.
Remember this guy?

Drill baby drill!

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 1, 2013 - 10:01pm PT

Eric...I bolted another one of your "bold" top rope routes in the Canyon today.

But then again it was 10- so it had to be some one else who did it.

Eric wrote: Now Bob tell us all about the routes done there ground up?
Tell us about all those bold climbs on lead placing bolts by hand.

Why do you care? You couldn't get up them no matter how the bolts were placed.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 1, 2013 - 11:17pm PT

Bolting Bob, just because you spray the most, doesn't mean you know the most.

Now when are you coming to FL to go fishing and bird watching?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Aug 2, 2013 - 08:24am PT

What is your point Goat? Or don't have one and you are just another never-was bumbler pining for the good old days when 5.11 was somehow harder because it was done in lycra?

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 2, 2013 - 11:38am PT

Patrick wrote: What is your point Goat?

He doesn't have one...got some weird shit/fixation with me and the routes that I have done.

The really strange part is that he keep asking about what bold ground up routes others have done when he has a big goose egg when it come to the amount he has done.

These wanna-be-tradsters are really warped in the head...expecting others to do what they can't.

Will Eccleston

Trad climber

Atlanta, GA

Aug 3, 2013 - 05:44am PT

If this route was originally put up in the manner that folks are saying it was, it introduces way too many grey areas for me to really get excited and argue about. But I will say what I always say when people are arguing about bolting:

By far, for me, the most interesting thing I can do when climbing is to approach a route that has been un-altered by humans, climb it from bottom to top with just what myself and my partner can carry, and walk away from it with everything we brought, leaving it still unaltered by humans. I hope the folks that don't share this sentiment will think about it, and maybe, one day, share it.

It should be noted that I am happy to clip bolts sometimes, and I'm happy that sport climbing exists, but climbing on real rock without someone's pre-installed infrastructure is so much more satisfying.

MAD BOLTER

Trad climber

CARLSBAD,NM

Aug 5, 2013 - 02:23pm PT

AND I THOUGHT RETROBOLTING WAS TALKING ABOUT REPLACING OLD ORIGINAL BOLTS THAT WERE NOT STAINLESS AND/OR WERE POORLY(BADLY?) SET.
I HAVE CHOPPED/REMOVED ONE PAIR OF OLD VERY BAD-DEADLY-PLACEMENT BOLTS. WITHOUT RESETTING NEW ONES. A VERY MUCH UNUSED ROUTE. ABOUT 20 YRS. AGO

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Aug 5, 2013 - 03:27pm PT

^^^

Retro-bolting = adding bolts that were not there when the route was FA'd.

Re-bolting = replacing/upgrading existing bolts.

Wad

Trad climber

Boulder, CO

Aug 5, 2013 - 11:49pm PT

How's the nailin on this thing? Is there any good copper heading? Looking forward to the big send, just wanna get beta on what iron to bring. Bivy spots?

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 7, 2013 - 03:13pm PT

Patrick, I don't care either way, I only did a half dozen routes up there, a few were bold and a couple were top ropes. No big deal either way although a bunch of us are laughing at the new guidebook and the half ass way it was thrown together without any input from the guidebook at Neptunes.
Just a copy and past from the Mountain Project database.

They don't call him Ground Up Bob or Bold Bob, it's Bolting Bob for a reason, and it's just fun to sit back and laugh as he fights the reputation.

Settle down Bob and accept your fate as an overbolting, rapbolting, and retrobolting machine.
When is your next guidebook coming out?

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Aug 12, 2013 - 01:50pm PT

http://www.dailycamera.com/recreation-columnists/ci_23762980/confessions-climbing-criminal-when-saintly-intent-turns-sinful

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 12, 2013 - 02:09pm PT

Eric wrote: They don't call him Ground Up Bob or Bold Bob, it's Bolting Bob for a reason, and it's just fun to sit back and laugh as he fights the reputation.

Eric wrote:Patrick, I don't care either way, I only did a half dozen routes up there, a few were bold and a couple were top ropes.

The fat man doesn't care but continues to arm chair quarteback and mouth off.

Coming from a overweight top roper who can't lead a sport or trad 5.9.

Funny stuff indeed.

Eric...have you led Scary Canary, Jules Verne, Blue Power or Wendego...to name a few?

Yes or no?

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 13, 2013 - 01:45pm PT

Yes when I was young and dumb.
Haven't done Blue Power or Wendego. does that mean I'm not to allowed to have an opinion on your plagiarism?

Your hen picking is hilarious.

Have you ever had unprotected sex in Camp Slime or Camp Four?
Have you ever been a bike messenger in NYC or skied a CO 14er....?
Whats your record on the Long Peak Tri?

rollin rollin rolling bolting Bob Hide...eeeee...

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 13, 2013 - 02:12pm PT

Eric wrote: Yes when I was young and dumb.
Haven't done Blue Power or Wendego. does that mean I'm not to allowed to have an opinion on your plagiarism?

You are a liar. Plain and simple. Now you are old, dumb and liar.

Having an opinion is one thing...being a liar is another. Fecking armchair climber and now a couch potato guide book critic...doesn't get much funnier.

So sorry that your historical top rope ascents didn't get into the book...Boulder Canyon history is so incomplete now.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Aug 13, 2013 - 02:29pm PT

Eric: Last I saw you, you were hanging and moaning on 5.8 in the Voo, ON TOPROPE. That's sweet action that you lead those Eldo scarefests...unless of course you're full of sh#t. Hmm, what are the chances...5.8 flailer is ex-hardman, or 5.8 flailer is lying?

Who knew that being Roy's rack caddy would turn you into such a stud? It's like NPR, I learn something new everyday.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:03pm PT

Elcap...I watched Eric whine like a six year old on a 5.7 slab...amazing to see his rapid fall from a 5.12 eldo hardman to to his current state.

I almost feel sorry for the guy...almost being the key word.

Prod

Trad climber

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:20pm PT

For what it's worth Bob, I like the guides that you put out. Climbing and Mt Biking. But I also like Goatboy so my opinion might be scued....

Cheers,

Prod.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:21pm PT

Everybody changes, sorry for the whole sport actually, I'm just trying to let the masses know some guidebook authors are talking out their ass while blowing off first ascents.

Do you want me to post up your toprope in Vedauwoo screaming like a little boy Will or Prod?

We all have our down times but those that spray about their accomplishments while diminishing other seems half ass.

Again not a big deal, just pointing out idiosyncrasies that climbers take this sport so seriously to denigrate others accomplishments compared to other sports. W

Will, I'l try to upgrade my 8anu card for you, stay tuned,

Remind us again why we should care?

Prod

Trad climber

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:37pm PT

Do you want me to post up your toprope in Vedauwoo screaming like a little boy Will or Prod?

Well, we've never been to Vedauwoo together Goat, so stop throwing rocks in my direction.

Prod.

chill

climber

between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:37pm PT

We all have our down times but those that spray about their accomplishments while diminishing other seems half ass.

You're a funny guy Mr. Goat.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:38pm PT

Oh right that was Indian creek Prod, sorry.
we all scream sometimes, except Will, he's the only hardman.

I'm trying to keep it light chill but these Greenies never let up.
Again this is about other folks climbs more than whatever I did, I'm a lightweight, except for skiing and bike riding.

Prod

Trad climber

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:39pm PT

You are now correct.

Prod.

Rhodo-Router

Gym climber

sawatch choss

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:41pm PT

I feel less dirty after binging on porn. Take it somewhere else, kids.

RyanD

climber

Squamish

Aug 13, 2013 - 03:58pm PT

d#@&%e nozzle

I've been hearing this one a lot around here so I thought I'd look it up.

It's really not much of an insult IMO.

Oh well beats talking about Christianity I guess....

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 13, 2013 - 04:16pm PT

Eric wrote: Bob blew off the neptune book and cut and paste from MP, I called him out and all of a sudden I'm a bad guy. Lighten up people and try to grade up your reading comprehension!

I didn't blow off the book...it was full of insults and personal assaults and it bored me to tears.

I also didn't put FA's in for reason...people like you coming out of the woodwork claiming FA's top rope ascents.

You are the bad guy...holding others to something you can't even come close to doing.

You insulted Chris, then me, then my book. You got major issues when it comes to climbing, your ability and your place in it.

You look like a complete fool.

Thanks Prod...I do the best I can. :-)

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 13, 2013 - 04:29pm PT

Well why didn't you say that in the first place Bob, the Neptune book was funny and very informative and full of great accents despite the helter skelter way it was throw together.

Seriously I like you and what you have done for climbing but you gotta admit a lot of the history in Boulder Canyon is heady and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

We are only here to try to inform each other and have fun but when a segment of the tribe is cut out and replaced with online beta you have to accept some repercussions from the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

cheers and beers,
Eric

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Aug 13, 2013 - 06:42pm PT

Eric wrote: This isn't about eldo it's about bolted canyon.
And I did not lead sh#t but a few climbs.

No...it is about your lies throughout this thread.

ChrisWeidner

climber

Boulder, CO

Aug 19, 2014 - 03:51pm PT

Last August (2013) Thom Byrne and I had a couple beers and talked about the bolts I placed on Archangel. In person, we decided together that I should remove one of the first two bolts above the first anchor at the ledge about 25 feet up. I placed those bolts relatively close together to prevent a ledge fall, but there are opportunities for thin gear placements in the area of the first bolt.

Earlier I promised to remove 5 of the 8 bolts I placed because that's what Thom originally wanted me to do. But after our friendly conversation we agreed that I would remove just one of them. Thom was very kind to settle on this arrangement and I thank him for allowing Archangel to remain intact as a sport route.

Yesterday, I finally made good on my promise and I removed the first bolt above the ledge. Take care getting to it. *You may want to bring an extra small cam and/or RPs to protect the moves leading up to the new first bolt.

goatboy smellz

climber

लघिमा

Aug 19, 2014 - 03:52pm PT

What lies Bob?
It's well known you like to bolt.
Everyone needs to learn to embrace their failures, own it, laugh at it, it's the only way to get better.

You can learn a lot from Chris.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Aug 19, 2014 - 05:41pm PT

I missed this whole thread the first time around and caught up with the (much more abbreviated and to the point) discussion on MP and I have to say I'm impressed with how Chris stepped up, took responsibility, clarified his position and did what he could to make things right for everyone after his initial defensiveness. Good form, sir.

I forgot to ask, did Byrne say that he redpointed up to his original anchors? It would be nice to hear his side of things a little bit.

BASE104

Social climber

An Oil Field

Aug 19, 2014 - 07:31pm PT

Wow. I just read the entire thread.

It was kind of interesting for the first 300 posts, then it turned into a personal sh#t slinging festival by a couple of guys who had nothing to do with the route in question.

I have to admit that it was a 5 star sh#t slinging festival, so there was a little chuckling going on.

I will sit on my hands now.

Rankin

Social climber

Greensboro, North Carolina

Aug 19, 2014 - 08:28pm PT

Always a tragedy when an established route is bolted into submission. Even if the FA party is ok with it, I think it's way lame. Take up golf or bowling, and stay away from my crags.

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