Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
|
Indeed, that is a gripping, horrific little segment.
Best wishes to all the wives,children, fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters of these men who paid the ultimate sacrifice for their country.
R.I.P. Granite Mountain IHC
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
|
rSin, the title of this thread is "R.I.P. to our fire-fighting brothers". If you have problems with the federal fire policy or how we manage public lands there are many threads on ST which discuss these issues. Is it too much to ask that you keep your ricin on other threads? These are men and women who have died serving this country.
Back off. rSin, whoever s/he is, is every bit as entitled to post here as you are.
I started this thread because I spent time on the fire line and just wanted to wish the departed spirits of nineteen unfortunate brothers well. Since then, Ron Anderson has completely taken it over, as he does on half the threads on ST, posting almost a full third of the content. But so what? Should I delete it because Ron is babbling on "my" thread?
If rSin wants to put up some thoughts here, he is just as welcome to do so as you are, or Ron is.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Dec 17, 2013 - 08:38am PT
|
Fair enough Ghost. If you, are Arson or any other anonymous troll want to dishonor the memories of those who died serving our country you entirely have that right.
Albert Newman
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Ghost with your permission I am going to keep the memories of these firefighters alive. If you like I would be happy to start another thread with nearly the same title. As a professional wildland firefighter who knows many of the people who on scene at this incident, this particular disaster hits especially close to home.
I hope that the anonymous hacks and arsons who mock this tragedy can keep their rude, disrespectful comments to themselves.
Ron, the AZ Republic has been running a series of articles about the families of those who died.
Here is a link to one story:
"She was the wife of a Granite Mountain Hotshot and, one summer night, saw her world torn apart. But in the months that followed, she would be lifted up — by the lessons of her husband, the arms of family and a promise from a friend."
Read the rest of it here:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131231yarnell-fire-warneke-baby-part1.html
R.I.P. Granite Mountain IHC, lost but not forgotten
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
|
Ghost with your permission I am going to keep the memories of these firefighters alive.
You don't need my permission.
I started this thread because nineteen of my brothers died in a terrible tragedy and I wanted to honor their memory.
If you want to keep that sentiment going, I'm all for it. If you want to do it in this thread, that's great. If you want to do it on your own thread, that's fine too.
Nobody owns a thread. My hope would be that the posts on this one would be wishes for fair winds, high tide, and green grass for the spirits of the guys who died, but if someone wants to raise and/or discuss an issue pertinent to the tragedy, that's fine too.
Ron Anderson has raised a few such issues -- more power too him for doing so. But when rSin, whoever that might be, raised an issue that was relevant to the deaths of those guys, you jumped all over him. Why didn't you jump all over Ron Anderson when he said something other than "R.I.P."?
Anyone who spent time in the smoke has had nightmares about this. 'Nuff said.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
It's a new year, I am looking forward, while remembering those who have moved on. I hope this thread grows angel wings.
It is tough Ron, still brings a tear or two to read those stories of the babies that will never know their father and the mothers that will never see their sons again.
Here is a short made for TV documentary that seems well done for what it is. It may have been a little more sobering had they shown the actual terrain those men were hiking in before the burn. It is a wretched place to hike, much less fight fire. Anyone who has been to Granite Mountain has a good idea of the type of terrain and vegetation.
http://www.wunderground.com/news/america-burning-yarnell-hill-tragedy-and-nations-wildfire-crisis-20131230
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
Thanks for posting the article-- it's well written / produced.
Some thoughts:
My experience was that when a fire went sideways and was being transitioned from initial attack to being managed by a team it is always a chaotic, directionless mess. Crews need to be especially heads up while this is going on. I bet if every fire like this were investigated glaring management mistakes during transition would be revealed.
I think the initial thought that the crew was trying to make it to the ranch to protect it is wrong, it seems clear that everyone thought the ranch was an excellent safety zone.
Ultimately a hotshot crew is responsible for itself. Crews travel nationally- you can fight fires in swampy places like Florida, get on a plane and go to a brush fire in L.A. county and then maybe to a wilderness timber fire in Idaho. You have no idea about the competence of people managing those fires and maybe have never previously fought a fire in a particular fuel type. My superintendent would never commit us to anything he didn't verify for himself.
That obviously was not a problem here--they were on their home turf--but the mentality would be the same. Self sufficiency. The lookout situation on the fire was completely inadequate. Also, having a second or third year guy as a lookout is not o.k.
Doing slurry drops on their backfire seemed like a huge error.
Seeing pictures of Norris in his distinctive orange / yellow / white Payson hotshot hardhat (my alma mater) was brutal.
It seems they would have been well aware the fire was blowing up--there is no fire fighting to be done when that happens anymore than trying to stop a hurricane or earthquake. So they must have been thinking safety zone. I just can't see going down into the brush like that. I wasn't there and I'm sure they had their reasons.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
Those storms and the related downdrafts / wind shifts are well known and anticipated in Az. In certain cycles they happen every day. I just think everything happened much faster than everyone thought and they got caught out in the brush where they should not have been. Tragic, but I think the blame on the overhead is misplaced, or at least not spread as widely as it should be. I guess this isn't really the thread for this so I'll shutup now...
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
Yup, hindsight is 20/20. I think Norman MacLean said it well when he wrote about the Mann Gulch Fire:
“They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy.”
I think about this accident often, having been raised as a hotshot in the same area and having so much fun and adventure doing that job. Anyway, RIP Granite Mountain Hotshots.
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
Ron that sounds rather warm in the burn over. Fortunately Ive never had anything near that intense happen. These days it would warrant a major investigation and report.
I see what you are saying about the SPOT locators and can imagine it may be something the powers in Washington are discussing. They probably could have gotten the heavy air tanker drop in time if they had only known the location of the crew.
It will be interesting what changes occur in the fire service as a result of this horrific accident.
OTE: I didn't realize you worked for Payson IHC. I regularly run into the legendary Fred Scheffler on incidents, he goes out as an Safety Officer these days.
|
|
GLee
Social climber
MSO
|
|
As another who has worked in my youth doing this, I'm adding my thoughts and condolences to the families of those who have passed...
I thought that I would added this email to the thread (it just came to me today from a fellow volunteer in TRAMPS):
"America Burning: The Yarnell Hill Tragedy"
Steve Carlson (jumpbum@centurytel.net)
Add to contacts
1:22 AM
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Steve Carlson
Picture of Steve Carlson
Trail Crew folks,
Here is some information gathered by Fred Cooper and Bob McKean about this fire.
Fred’s email is Frederi920@aol.com and Bob’s is mckeanbob@gmail.com If you want to share comments with them.
Steve
There have been two fire investigation reports of the Yarnell Fire. The first by the AZ Department of Forestry released a couple months after the fire and the second by Wildland Fire Associates released in late November. Barry Hicks (MSO '64) was a member of the second investigation team. My conclusion is that the AZ Department of Forestry basically found in their report that they had followed their protocols and the firefighter deaths were the result of a catastrophic fire situation beyond their control.
The Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health hired Wildland Fire Associates whose findings resulted in the AZ Div. of OSH levying fines against the AZ Dept. of Forestry. The Wildland Fire Associates report concluded amongst other findings that the "Arizona Department of Forestry failed to implement their own extended attack guidelines and procedures including an extended attack safety checklist and wildland fire decision support system with a complexity analysis."
Following is a link to the Wildland Fire Associates Investigation Report. It is 73 pages in length. I found it to be a very comprehensive report. As with all wildland firefighter deaths that I have read about, a breakdown in communication is always a factor in entrapment and death. One of the primary missions of fire investigators is to identify all the contributing factors in the hope that others can learn so other lives are not put in jeopardy. Will we ever achieve this objective?
https://1bbaaf77-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/WildlandFireAssociatesReport.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cpBjb6BCnC06jBGZRXIUZixEN_GllAvrB_4cEb6iqMYFDrpn4nCXo5a5D01RV8J4_sXJwJG5FgjPE2qOWqvXCVXvlJ0exZnOBRnNbiaf4o86NUfYIXyDvxbCKu6rRi9d1r7GW6QXBiiyl923LUrT1eVucS6zv-zOWbZDxXVH1Np4JxAnPmIMyU_62Z0KrImmdX1l26DZqt_LAA6bvYvHwnLSOjQvdxTMmin1EXw0ZtYBnFWE89KwAvlqcfjq7SyimOK1RNK&attredirects=0
(you may have to higlight & COPY this URL, then PASTE into a URL bar)
Here is a recently published video from the Weather Channel that provides a compelling report on the Yarnell Hill Fire deaths. Note that Ted Putnam (MSO '66) is in the video. It is possible that he was an investigator on the fire. I know he was an investigator on the Storm King Mountain fire.
http://www.weather.com/news/america-burning-yarnel-hill-tragedy-20131230
Greg Lee (GLee)
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
R.I.P. Airtanker Pilot Geoffrey "Craig" Hunt
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
|
A couple weeks ago, two men killed and another seriously injured after a helicopter crash on a controlled burn in Mississippi.
RIP and thank you for your your service.
http://www.sunherald.com/2015/03/31/6152411/ntsb-faa-at-scene-of-fatal-copter.html
A pilot from Blanchard, Okla., and a U.S. Forest Service worker from Wiggins were unable to get out of a crashed helicopter after it caught fire in the De Soto National Forest, but another forest worker managed to get out and survive, authorities said Tuesday.
The pilot killed in Monday's crash in the Success community in north Harrison County has been identified as Brandon Ricks, 40, of Blanchard, Okla. The U.S. Forest Service worker killed was Steven W. Cobb, 55, of Wiggins.
Harrison County coroner Gary Hargrove said both were found inside the Bell 206 L1 helicopter after the crash was reported about a mile from Airey Town Road at 2:57 p.m.
Autopsies show Ricks died of smoke inhalation and Cobb of blunt force trauma, Hargrove said.
Authorities said the helicopter is owned by T&M Aviation of Oklahoma.
The details were released Tuesday in a press conference at the Mississippi Highway Patrol complex in Biloxi.
The survivor's name has not been released.
Hargrove said the man underwent surgery Mon
day night at the University of South Alabama Medical Center in Mobile. His condition was upgraded from critical to serious but authorities have not been able to talk with him yet.
The helicopter crashed along a 30-foot path and hit a number of trees, said Stephen Stein, air safety investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board. The crash site is east of Mississippi 67 and U.S. 49.
The wreckage will likely be removed today outside the view of the media and the public.
Officials have said the pilot and forest workers had been monitoring a controlled burn of about 800 acres along the Harrison and Stone county lines.
Stein said the helicopter had taken off from the Wiggins Airport. It is unclear if the pilot was communicating with anyone before the crash.
A NTSB team arrived at the crash site Tuesday along with team members from the Federal Aviation Administration, inspectors, aircraft engineers and manufacturers' representatives, he said.
The team will gather and document the scene with photographs before turning over the wreckage to a secure facility for further investigation, Stein said.
Part of the initial investigation includes questioning witnesses. Stein said the Forest Service and Harrison County Fire Service have been helpful with that, as well as other aspects.
Anyone with information about the crash is asked to contact the NTSB at witness@ntsb.gov or (202) 314-6000.
"Once the wreckage has been recovered, we will begin to investigate the man, the machine and the environment," Stein said.
Investigators will compile information about the pilot, his training and flight proficiency, and they'll examine the aircraft, its component history and maintenance records. Stein said the probe also will consider lighting and weather conditions, environmental factors and archived radar data.
A preliminary report with initial findings will be available on the NTSB website within five to 10 business days.
Stein said it could take up to 12 months to complete the investigation. About 60 days later, the NTSB board will release a brief report and probable-cause report.
"During the course of the investigation, if we find any systematic deficiencies at all concerning the man, the machine or the environment, the board will move to issue a safety recommendation … designed to prevent future similar accidents," Stein said. "Safety is our primary mission."
He said the helicopter was built in 1980.
"On behalf of the NTSB, I'd like to offer deepest sympathies and most sincere condolences to the families and friends of those involved in the accident," Stein said.
Mario Rossilli, Forest Service public affairs spokesman, said members of the state agency feel the loss.
"It has hit a lot of us really right here," he said, placing his hand over his heart. "We're coping."
Greta Boley, Forest Service national director for Mississippi, said the agency appreciates a show of concern and prayers from across the nation and in South Mississippi
"We are hurting right now," Boley said.
J
|
|
the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
|
Rest in Peace.
http://news.yahoo.com/sheriff-3-firefighters-killed-washington-state-wildfire-005836275.html
TWISP, Wash. (AP) — Three firefighters were killed and three to four others were injured, at least one critically, on Wednesday as raging wildfires advanced on towns in north-central Washington, authorities said.
Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said the deaths, in a wildfire near Twisp, had been confirmed, but he said he was not immediately releasing specific details about the circumstances or the victims, pending notification of their families.
"It was a hellstorm up here," he told KXLY-TV of Spokane. "The fire was racing and the winds were blowing in every direction and then it would shift. ... It was tough on 'em up here."
One firefighter had been taken to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle in critical condition, a nursing supervisor there said.
"My heart breaks over the loss of life," Gov. Jay Inslee said in a written statement. "I know all Washington joins me and Trudi in sending our prayers to the families of these brave firefighters. They gave their lives to protect others. It was their calling, but the loss for their families is immense."
The news came after officials urged people in the popular outdoor-recreation centers of Twisp and Wintrop, in the scenic Methow River valley about 115 miles northeast of Seattle, to evacuate as a fire near Twisp grew to about 2 square miles.
The Okanogan County Emergency Management department issued the order for the towns, which combined have a population of about 1,300.
A larger group of fires burning to the east covered about 50 square miles and prompted the evacuation of Conconully, home to about 200 people 20 miles northwest of Omak — with further urgent evacuation orders issued Wednesday night for an area south of Conconully to the Omak town line.
To the south, more than 1,100 firefighters were combatting a fire that topped 108 square miles and was still threatening the resort town of Chelan.
Angela Seydel, a spokeswoman for Okanogan Emergency Management, said Wednesday evening that 4,000 homes in the region had been evacuated.
"It is really bad out there. The fires have just exploded," she said. "We're just directing everybody to head south."
A stream of cars poured south out of Twisp as dark smoke clouds loomed; the highway to the north was closed. Some people put sprinklers on their roofs in an effort to protect their homes, and others joined gas lines several cars deep.
The National Weather Service issued a red flag warning for the eastern portion of the state from 11 a.m. Wednesday to 5 p.m. Friday. Officials said temperatures will climb above 90 degrees and relative humidity will drop as low as 14 percent.
Drought and heat have combined to make this fire season of the most active in the United States in recent years. Nearly 29,000 firefighters are battling some 100 large blazes across the West, including in Idaho, Oregon, Montana, Washington and California.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!