risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
Greenwald has never "vowed to damage the US", so we needn't remember what never happened. I challenge Ken M to produce the Greenwald quote in its entirety with a source that backs up this false assertion.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10251337/Greenwald-UK-will-be-sorry-for-detaining-partner.html

And you seem to have a selective memory about the traitor Snowden: How he dumped hundreds of thousands of documents into the public that he could not have possibly read.....that the NYTimes and other actual journalism sites redacted before they published, because they thought that inappropriate stuff was contained within.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Nothing in that link supports your statement.

So there's that.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
Tvash

Ken M is a tool in this case. He keeps on repeating that Greenwald has threatened to "cause as much damage to the US as possible". To Ken M "will be sorry for" and "continue to publish NSA secrets" is the same thing as "cause as much damage to the US as possible".

I wonder how anybody with an academic education is able to reason this way.

That said: Greenwald's statement was unnecessary and unwise. He must have known that tools like Ken M would twist the words and use them in their spinning of "half-truths".
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
Ken M is one of millions of parrots right wing PR campaigns depend on to do exactly what he's doing. He's a type, and a common one. It's more important to shout the party line than to be accurate or truthful. As Fox well knows, you publish the lie on page one, retract on page 10 (actually, they never retract - you don't need to with pure propaganda). This is today's anti-liberalism at work. It's easier to order off a fast food menu that learn to cook yourself. Guys like Ken M get the instant emotional stroke of liberal bashing without putting out much if any effort. Spoon fed, all the way.

The funny thing is, Snowden is far from being a 'liberal'. He's far more of a libertarian - a highly ethical, really smart libertarian. He also happens to be a patriotic as it gets. The magnitude of the sacrifice he just made so this country could simply have this conversation speaks volumes there.

I've heard Greenwald speak. He's a straight shooter and doesn't mince words. That's just his style. It's refreshing, actually. It's also the very same trait the Right loves about its spokespeople - TELL IT LIKE IT IS! - who, unlike Greenwald, tend to be ethically challenged, fast and loose with their facts, in some cases, dumb as a bag of donuts.

In the end, it wouldn't matter how Greenwald worded anything. Big Brother's fanbois will broadcast the inevitable smear campaign regardless.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
Members of the Church Committee publish open letter to Congress:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/us-intelligence-oversight-group-from-1975-says-things-are-way-worse-now/
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 18, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
If we take the long view of society, that is, over decades or centuries, the very real risk of becoming an Orwellian society outweigh the risks of compromising the position of the current government in conflicts with other countries or corporate/political/terrorist organizations. "We the people" are not the same as "we the government." We the people elect a government to represent our interests, and in spirit it is our job as Americans to prioritize what is right for the people rather than what is right for the elected government if those two causes diverge. That is how America was created in the first place. The government (England) wasn't meeting the needs of the people (or at least not meeting the needs of American corporations that influenced the American people to feel like their needs weren't being met).

To that end, I believe it is incisive, prescient, self-sacrificing, and heroic to take a personal risk for something that seems esoteric to many, yet is at the very heart of our society's future. Whatever personal gain or recognition Snowden might have hoped to gain, if any, is not worth the difficulties he will face. He was probably smart enough to know that before this started. To really dig into this, just think about who has something to gain and who has something to lose in the discussion of these issues, the revelation of secrets.

It's really a pandora's box though... we all have something to gain and to lose by the revelation of secrets. But if the US suddenly "took the moral high road" on this stuff, then the US might cease to exist in a few years or decades after being over-run by other countries that don't have any moral qualms about doing it. Basic game theory operating here- it just takes the probability of any group other than the US government exploiting these technologies (which is almost certain), and the US basically has no strategic choice but to respond or stop existing. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

The challenge is how we as a society authorize our government to keep us on a path of democratic ideals and life that we prefer, between two opposing forces that threaten these:
1) Foreign powers that would like to topple US and send us back to the stone age, Sharia law, etc.
2) US shadow/hidden government (powerful people? corporations?) that uses people's fear of #1 to give up basic freedoms and societal expectations to give more power to an emergent elite/ruling class whilst the remainder of society lives under constant surveillance, and in complete fear and powerlessness.

The tightrope of democracy....

Whatever crimes Snowden committed against USA government, and whatever real risk he has exposed to the people of the USA, I would hope that the service he has done to humanity is offset when his punishments are handed out. And in any case, I am grateful for his personal sacrifice, that he has faced punishment so that I don't have to. He is a soldier of humanity, and I am grateful for the life I can live because of people like him, just like I am grateful for the life I can live because of the soldiers of the US military.

In an ideal world we wouldn't need soldiers, but this world isn't ideal. There is always room for soldiers to be better deployed, for smarter decisions to be made, but I don't know enough of the details to second-guess any decisions. It's easy to point out mistakes in something, much harder to actually fix it or even try.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 18, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Tvrash said:
"Ken M is one of millions of parrots right wing PR campaigns depend on to do exactly what he's doing. He's a type, and a common one. It's more important to shout the party line than to be accurate or truthful. As Fox well knows, you publish the lie on page one, retract on page 10 (actually, they never retract - you don't need to with pure propaganda). This is today's anti-liberalism at work. It's easier to order off a fast food menu that learn to cook yourself. Guys like Ken M get the instant emotional stroke of liberal bashing without putting out much if any effort. Spoon fed, all the way. "

Bullsh#t, Ken M is more liberal than you, and as a Doctor, probably more intelligent. He believes differently than you. Which is what you have and offer us, your belief what you think the truth is. I personally think that you are correct in the unbelievable bashing and outright lies put out in the world by the Nancy Pelosi types to try to sway the Ken M types. It happens.




Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
Hey Bill, how's the anti-Mexican rant going for ya?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 19, 2014 - 12:47am PT
Thanks, Couch, very fair.

He also happens to be a patriotic as it gets. (Snowden)

yep, disclosing diplomatic cables that had nothing to do with anything illegal, that revealed nothing illegal, but damaged the relations between the US and other countries.

very patriotic. sort of what'd you'd expect of a new-born Russian. I notice he has nothing to say about Ukraine, but I'm sure he wouldn't want to upset his masters.

Guess I better tear up my ACLU card and re-register as a Tea Bagger.

Ha!

As a journalist myself, I read and watch a professional journalists words with great care. Unlike most people, their words contain messages at several levels. They are able to threaten, without making overt threats.

This is actually one of the great skills of the Repugs, and they are good at sending out things that have meanings at several levsls.

For example, their bumper stickers: Obama Psalm 108:8

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2009/11/bumper-stickers-for-psalm-1098----a-wrong-hearted-prayer-for-obama/1#.UykhLajlnN4
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2014 - 06:44am PT
so much of what Ken M has recently posted is so demonstrably false and has been rehashed so many times throughout this thread that it really isn't worth the effort.

people who want to believe, without any current evidence, that snowden acted with anything but patriotic intentions will continue to do so.

and people who want to believe that snowden is a saint, although equally as impossible to know at this point, will also continue to do so.

but this comment of Ken M's takes the cake and i can't help but get sucked in:

"yep, disclosing diplomatic cables that had nothing to do with anything illegal, that revealed nothing illegal, but damaged the relations between the US and other countries."

what in the actual f*#k?

have you really confused snowden's very careful release of nsa and surveillance related documents to a handful of selected journalists with assange's carpet bombing style release of diplomatic cables to the public?

given the level of bullshit in some of your other comments, it wouldn't surprise me if you were speaking with authoritah while being so fundamentally misinformed/confused.

regardless this focusing of the discussion on snowden is such a complete waste of time.

it's a bit like being served rotten food at a restaurant and then getting angry at the waiter...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 19, 2014 - 11:39am PT
]so much of what Ken M has recently posted is so demonstrably false and has been rehashed so many times throughout this thread that it really isn't worth the effort.

So what you are saying is that since you cannot refute anything that I say, you'll simply attack me personally. I can understand why you would not want to talk about Snowden in the Snowden thread. Far too confusing.

but this comment of Ken M's takes the cake and i can't help but get sucked in:

"yep, disclosing diplomatic cables that had nothing to do with anything illegal, that revealed nothing illegal, but damaged the relations between the US and other countries."

what in the actual f*#k?

have you really confused snowden's very careful release of nsa and surveillance related documents to a handful of selected journalists with assange's carpet bombing style release of diplomatic cables to the public?

Assange IS the most complicit "selected journalist", chosen by SNOWDEN. They clearly communicated on the carpet bombing, and you've read NOT ONE WORD by Snowden criticizing or being remorseful of the carpet bombing.

Doh!

I DO like that you acknowledge the inappropriateness of Assange's actions. We're getting somewhere.

regardless this focusing of the discussion on snowden is such a complete waste of time.

I wonder just how stupid you are? Have you not READ the TITLE of this discussion thread??? It is ABOUT SNOWDEN. If you want to discuss something else, go to what must be the more appropriate for you kiddie porn threads.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 19, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Assange has nothing to do with Snowden's whistleblowing.

Snowden released documents to Greenwald (Guardian, Poitras (filmmaker), and Gellman (Wa Post).

That Snowden hasn't commented on Assange, the Ukraine, gravity waves, or the health benefits of I Can't Believe Its Not Butter! is, of course, irrelevant to anything.

If you're a journalist, Ken, you're a shitty one, at least if you're treatment of this topic is any indication.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 30, 2014 - 01:37am PT
http://www.ted.com/talks/edward_snowden_here_s_how_we_take_back_the_internet

Appearing by telepresence robot, Edward Snowden speaks at TED2014 about surveillance and Internet freedom. The right to data privacy, he suggests, is not a partisan issue, but requires a fundamental rethink of the role of the internet in our lives and the laws that protect it. "Your rights matter, he says, "because you never know when you're going to need them." Chris Anderson interviews, with special guest Tim Berners-Lee.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Mar 30, 2014 - 10:04am PT


Edward Snowden = HERO
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 30, 2014 - 03:08pm PT

Credit: lostinshanghai


As time progresses; it will get worse. We have no voice, any one that tries to discredits those in charge suddenly disappear. They have control, we do not. They spread disinformation and there is really no way to stop them.

They make up things, change the story line so people will think it will not happen. But thats what they want, thats what they do: Propaganda not for the few but for the masses.

But in the meantime: some reading, writing and arithmetic.

http://www.examiner.com/topic/gchq/articles?page=1

http://www.examiner.com/article/leaked-nsa-document-confirms-online-covert-deception-involves-ufos

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/voices/

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1021430-the-art-of-deception-training-for-a-new.html#document/p1

*above http note: will breakdown PowerPoint into the slides, read text or hit 50 pages.

The Art of Deception: Training for a New Generation of Online Covert Operations
Leaked NSA document confirms online covert deception involves UFOs
[written a few years back but good PowerPoint presentation on how they think: on the text will not download so read it 50 page.

The Five Eyes FVEY but understand soon to be 13. GCHQ UKs CIA.
As for facebook, internet;

http://www.examiner.com/article/snowden-government-infiltrates-websites-uses-social-media-to-deceive-destroy


Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 31, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
TFPU! Tom is adding great value to the thread ...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:48pm PT

Guardian and Washington Post win Pulitzer prize for NSA revelations
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/apr/14/guardian-washington-post-pulitzer-nsa-revelations

The Pulitzer committee praised the Guardian for its "revelation of widespread secret surveillance by the National Security Agency, helping through aggressive reporting to spark a debate about the relationship between the government and the public over issues of security and privacy".

Keep up the good work...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Apr 15, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
Thanks for the continued reminder that the United States federal government has a massive internal spy program that can and does record every phone and email conversation inside the country.

DMT
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
We knew that years before "Snowden" became a verb Dingus.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
Did you now? Lol.

Right.

DMT
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